Full transcript: Living wage vs slave wage

2013-04-23 14:31

Read the full transcript of the first City Press/Chris Hani Debate. The debate was moderated by Professor Edward Webster of the Chris Hani Institute and featured different takes on the wage issue from Cosatu’s Zwelinzima Vavi and Temba Nolutshungu from the Free Market Foundation.

Eddie Webster (EW): I am Eddie Webster, the director of the Chris Hani Institute. The Chris Hani Institute is an independent think-tank based at the Cosatu house. This is the first in the series of debates to commemorate 20 years since the assassination of comrade Chris Hani.

The debate is about the minimum wage or any wage. City Press is partnering with us in this debate, the first of five. What we are hoping to do in this debate is open us (as an institution) to the public. That is why we wanted Cosatu house, because we are a think-tank not in the university, but inside the movement.

I always think of those famous words of/by John Maynard Keynes, the famous economist, who said: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?”

That is an important question, because I think, in this debate about wages, the facts have not changed. If you go back into the history of this debate, you go back to the 18th and 19th century and the answer, at that time, would have been the market decides the wage.

By the middle of the 20th century, it would be accepted that the state must intervene in order to equalise the bargaining relationship to establish a kind of social core.

So the debate has swung from market to state. But, of course this change, began in the 70s, with the rise of Thatcherism, of a free market idea. The argument became that dominant hegemonic markets decide ... now the question mainly is: is the pendulum swinging back, from market to state, back to market? Are we seeing an emergence of an argument in the context of growing inequality and low wages? Are we seeing an argument for state intervention in the market?

I always remember, in economics 101, my professor said: In economics, the questions are always the same, it is the answers that change every year. And I think that is interesting here, that the answers constantly change every year, and that is why we have booked this afternoon, conflicting, different responses to this debate.

This is a debate not so much around the fact that how we respond to that, but about minimum wage or any wage. I think that is appropriate that we have from the Free Market Foundation, Mr Temba Nolutshungu, who is the director since 1999, of the Free Market Foundation, and Chair of the Langa Heritage Foundation, and for a while, the Executive Director of V&A Waterfront Company.

I think what is interesting about Temba is that he has a political activist roots, but it is in fact a consciousness tradition. He was expelled from Lovedale High School and expelled from Fort Hare University for his political activities.

He has been active and contributed to important books, peace and liberty. So it is one of the opportunities, welcome Mr Nolutshungu at Cosatu House.

I think Zwelinzima Vavi needs less of an introduction in the Cosatu House, but we are very pleased to have the General Secretary of Cosatu, this afternoon. Comrade Zweli is also a product of the Eastern Cape, where he grew up in the resettlement camp outside Queenstown. He has been with the movement as a union organiser initially in National Union of Mineworkers (NUM), but for the last 10- 15 years, he has been in Cosatu, and has established a reputation as courageous and independent think on worker issues. I think it is quite audacious... brave of us to have with us here someone from the Free Market Foundation and Cosatu together.

If I may quote Barack Obama, the president of the US: “It is the audacity of hope that we are hoping that out of this we will be enlightened.”

Let me now call on comrade Vavi to speak, it is best if he speaks first, that is the procedure, then I will allow Mr Nolutshungu to respond, then I will open it to the house.

Zwelinzima Vavi: Dear Professor Eddie Webster and Mr Nolutshungu, members of the federation, Cosatu and other activists from our broad movement.

We gathered here to debate the statutory issue of national minimum wage. Cosatu demands and a policy now finalised and collective bargaining organisations campaigns conference. The call for the introduction of the national minimum wage was made some fifty years ago by the Freedom Charter.

We said that there should be a minimum wage. The justification for this is very dear, the levels of poverty, which existed in 1955, are still with us today.

And inequality is even worse in what now is the most unequal society in the world. The slate of inequality together with poverty and unemployment are acknowledged by every person now in South Africa.

This now constitutes a formidable crisis, which Cosatu calls the triple crisis of poverty, unemployment and inequality; which other people prefer to call it the triple challenge, whatever you want to call it. All we must perhaps see is a common ground is that this is a problem. And the problem is those three issues. The debate on minimum wage is a debate that cannot be from the triple challenge.

South Africa has no coherent income or wage policy. The apartheid policy has not fundamentally changed, it remains with us. The majority of black workers, particularly in the private sector continue to live in poverty. Not only in the most vulnerable sectors, but even among workers in the formal blue worker workers the levels of poverty have not changed.

Why the minimum wage in South Africa, you may ask?

Half of South African workers earn less than three thousand and thirty three rands a month in 2011. Yet rough estimates for a national minimum living wage level in South Africa range at R4 000 a month, while some universities put it as high as at R5 000, for a family of five dependants. Those living below that figure of R4 000

The minimum living wage in South Africa range at about four thousand rands a month. Those living below that figure of R4 000 accordingly are living below a minimum level, and are living in poverty. And if you use that figure of R4 000 per month, then we can estimate that over fifty percent of South African workers in the formal sector are in poverty.

And if you use that figure you realise that then we can estimate that over 60% of the worker in formal sector are in poverty or are living in poverty. If we to look at the sectoral determination, the average places workers at an average of some R2 118 a month, way below the minimum living level.

If we were to look at the bargaining council, the average figure would be at some R2 725, way below the R4 000 minimum living level.

The South African race relations analysing stats South African statistics show that the median salary of an African in 2011 was R2 380 for Africans. Median is the mid area between lowest and highest. We call them black but in my politics, they are Africans; coloureds earned and the median salary of R3 030; Indians earned R6 800; and whites earned R10 000.

Now this is another story of inequalities we are just touching in passing, it is not the totality of the picture of inequality in our society. We are saying that any fear of confrontation that we become the most unequal society in the world.

To Cosatu, the demand is to push a for a national minimum wage is then seen as a springboard to protect all low paid workers from their current situation that I have described through the statistics.

We acknowledge that the national minimum wage that is low will not address poverty and inequality or even the triple challenge of unemployment, poverty and inequality.

That is why even in our call. We are calling for a coherent way in which incomes policy which becomes an integral part of the overall strategy to address the economic fold blinds which we inherited from colonial past and apartheid.

And to ask that is then at the centre of what everybody calls the second phase for a radical economic transformation. In addition to a national minimum wage, we are calling for a comprehensive sectoral bargaining (wall to wall bargaining), a centralised bargaining system that will be introduced to ensure that workers then struggle from those minimum wages to improve beyond them.

We are calling for a comprehensive social security net system in the country, in particular the universal, social wage, so that workers, including unemployed workers can get what we call a non-wage income. We are calling for national wage incomes policy to be combined with appropriate microeconomic policies and appropriate industrial policies.

We are not just calling for one silver bullet and all our problems are solved. We are calling for a combination of measures that we think when they combined with all of other measures/interventions can have the desired effect as we apply them. The length we are drawing from Latin America is that of a decent wage policy, for it to be more effective, it must be driven by a developmental state as part of a comprehensive strategy.

In Brazil, this strategy was combined with increase in domestic productive capacity, so that income will drive creation of large scale formal employment.

That is why Patrick (Craven) was in my office earlier today to get me sign off on a statement Cosatu is issuing today to welcome that statement that the minister of trade and industry was making yesterday about the industrial policy action plan that will now run between 2013 and 2014.

So we are not calling for a national minimum wage as a final destination, but rather a spring board towards a living wage for all workers as part of our new growth path proposals to restructure the current crisis driven by the growth path. The current growth path is not working for them, but only working for a few who have benefited from it is not working for human kind.

We are not calling for a minimum wage in order to substitute collective bargaining. We are not saying that once we have an initial minimum wage the struggle will come to an end. We do not want to demobilise workers.

Workers must battle on their sectoral bargaining minimum wage as well the national minimum wage to improve all the time in all going struggle to attain a living wage. We have looked at the international experience and briefly I want to say that in our bargaining conference we have invited the only aspects on the issue of minimum wage that is recognised throughout the world.

We have done extensive research about minimum wages all over the world.

Patrick Beltzer told us that the minimum wage is an old concept practice, which began at the end of 19th century in New Zealand and Australia. Britain then adopted its first national minimum wage as well in 1909 and in 1928 already the ILO (International Labour Organisation) adopted the first set of proposals for a minimum wage machinery convention.

In 1928, the US introduced its first fair labour standards act in 1938, and France after World War II ar introduced its first mechanism in 1950. I know that you were saying that there came in the lady (Margaret Thatcher in 1979).

By 1985 the whole concept of the minimum wage had been attacked and destroyed in Great Britain, but that history leads us to the situation of today in that today, ninety percent of the ILO member states do have a national minimum wage of one kind or another.

And if this thing was going to work, I was going to show you so that you can start somewhere. What is happening elsewhere in the world?

Let us go to another argument, which I am sure we are going to have with Mr Nolutshungu. The minimum wage and jobs, again from the research done by Pelzer of the ILO, he told us that the perception of minimum wages is changing around the globe as we speak, because studies have shown that if the minimum wage is set at a reasonable level, is what we are calling for a discussion in South Africa of its own context, is that it will have no significant employment effect, one way or another.

In the UK after they have monitored the minimum wage for over 10 years, to what they call the UK full pay commission, they found that there is no significant effect on employment.

In the US, but elsewhere we will argue that in fact there is a significant effect on employment, and the impact is the point is in effect positive.

In Brazil the strategy has been introduced just as an imposition of a minimum wage but form part of the comprehensive package for development.

The impact has been a positive to the extreme. Lula introduced the minimum wage which played a key role in reducing poverty, unemployment and inequality.

And between 2002 and 2003 and until 2010, the minimum wages of Brazilian workers increased as a result of that intervention by 81%. In the same period 17 million jobs were created, the proportion of formal employment in the economy increased dramatically outpacing the informal job market by 3:1.

And between 2003 and 2008 poverty came down in Brazil with 20 million people liberated from poverty. In that period we were talking about 61.4 million people in poverty to 41.5 million in poverty.

The Gini coefficient, which is a measure of inequality, came down from 0.57 in 1995 to 0.52 in 2008. And the salaries rose from 58% of the GDP in 2004 to 62% in 2009.

This is a serious onslaught on poverty, but practically we here the noise of Free Market Foundation and all of their positives to the media we back off, instead we hold conferences after conference to assure them that nothing will change despite our calls for a second phase of radical transformation.

Here in South Africa, a development policy research unit study found that after introduction of higher minimum wages through sectoral determination of the department of labour, employment in related sectors increased by more than 650 000 workers from 2001 to 2007 – from 3.45 million to 4.1 million despite a large drop in the farm worker jobs.

And you can see that the host issue of job losses in the agricultural sector have absolutely nothing to do with the introduction of the sectoral minimum wages. By the way, they were before De Doorns, they were getting how much? R78 R69. You cannot say someone who is earning R69, and that pay they get is causing massive layoffs. It has absolutely nothing to do with minimum wage. These are the structural problems that we are dealing with today in the agricultural sector.

So, when we put this fact on the table what is going to the likely response on the part of the employers, you will hear now; but from what we they will say no, this idea cannot work in South Africa.

South Africa has its own peculiar problems – do not compare South Africa with Brazil. Do not at what they did in America, France and let us reject the fact that 90% members of the ILO member states, they already have some form of a minimum-wage policy.

They say that we are special, yes we are special. For us this poverty was ordained from above, we must accept this. This is what has been ordered by the Creator, and all we must do is to go to school; every time we raise these things.

No, no your problem is that there is no education/skills, go to school, if you want to earn as we earn. Find the way, you saw the racial inequalities; the median salary of whites is R10 000, compared to the Africans. Do not rush, do not talk too much about that, go to school.

We are not saying that education is important ... it is absolutely critical. There is no way we can escape from poverty and unemployment and underdevelopment, nor can we liberate family ways out of poverty without ensuring that kids are taken to school.

That is why we are grinding so much effort to ensure that the education system, the two tier education system of our country is restructured and that we must have quality education. But we will be told that. I see the professor is saying that time is up.

Let me speak on behalf of the employers, one of them is here, already we know they will taking us to the constitutional court, so that the bargaining council that represents just over two million workers may no longer have the right to extend collective bargaining to non parties.

In a way, attacking even the small grain of solidarity that remains between workers that are organising to powerful unions and those that are on the wings of the employers. So let us emphasise in conclusion that the national minimum wage is not our ultimate destination, but a powerful vehicle and a springboard to wards a radical trajectory of our economy driven by a developmental state to create more decent and sustainable jobs, a faster growing economy, and more equal society.

Thank you, Professor!

EW: Thank you for the input. I think the key points that you made on the idea of a national minimum-wage policy is not you final destination, but it is part of a broader restructuring of world microeconomic policy. And the other which I thought was important is the suggestion there is no significant threat on employment by creating the minimum wage, it will not lead to job losses. Like all research it can be contested as our next speaker will, over to you Temba.

Temba: Good Evening, everyone. I must acknowledge the fact that the Imbongi delivered a rather biased presentation, but the point is for us is: we must understand the culture around the Imbongi. The Imbongi has a prerogative to speak his mind, even to unleash a barrage of abusive words.

So he did an excellent job, and he is also spontaneous, natural sort of Imbongi. There many people who masquerade as Imbongis, and we have to sit down and cram when they regurgitate what they have memorised this long.

Anyway, having said that, I thank you very much Prof Webster for presiding over this event, and I also appreciate the fact that it has been organised by the Chris Hani institute, City Press, and also I wish to extend my appreciation to Cosatu for hosting this event.

And, whoever had the audacity to invite somebody from the Free Market Foundation. I take my hat off to them. I see this as a gesture in inculcating a culture of democracy. That is how I look at it.

Now, Maximilien Robespierre – one of the architects of the French Revolution of 1789 – when it was his turn to face the guillotine in 1794, he looked at the masses that were baying for his blood and he uttered the following words (and I quote): “I gave you freedom, and you want bread as well”, with that he was decapitated.

In South Africa now, and looking at where we are, we are confronted by one of the things that seem to be frustrating a many of us and that is somehow the fact that miracle has not translated into any kind of miracle, and that frustrates a lot of people. And we are looking at the fact that we have an unemployment rate in this country of between 33-36%, now revised recently to 35.6% or 35.9%, and I would argue that it is even worse than that. It is certainly not getting better.

That is the situation that confronts us. We are talking about 7.6 million unemployed people; able bodied people. That is a combined population of Durban and Cape Town. This is a serious matter.

We cannot have a situation where we have more than 7.5 million people who are angry, desperate and in despair in this country. Many of whom have not been working for a very long time.

Let me bring things into sharp focus here. In Tunisia on 17 December 2011, there was a certain young man, a 26-year-old young man, Mohamed Bouazizi. Now he had been out of work for a long, long time. He decided to embark on his own enterprise, namely operating as a street vendor. He was constantly on the receiving end of harassment by law enforcing agencies, who would confiscate his stock from time to time. At some point he decided I have had enough of this harassment.

What he did was to commit self-emollition, and set himself alight! And the rest is history. We know what happened. This precipitated a civil war and a spontaneous uprising. It was not the type organised at some backroom by revolutionaries, it occurred spontaneously.

Now at that time the average economic growth between 2005 and last year was 14.83%. Look at us in the region of 36% people unemployed.

This is a panacea for anything that could happen. We do not know what would trigger an uprising, but I assure you that if I was dealing with a Marxist Leninist, even worse at the time when I was a radical anarchist, for me this would be a ready godsent opportunity to stoke up revolution in this country. That is how serious the situation is.

Now, a historical perspective on minimal wage is will not go down well with you because it relates to trade union activity long before the current trade organised labour unions came about.

Let me cite from a paper that I wrote a while ago. Professor Walter Williams mentions Justice Henry Flagen of the appellate division in South Africa, who stated in 1960: “In the interest of preserving and protecting the vested interests of the way of life of the best portion of the population. The rate for the job is statutory mandated minimum wage and job preservation was necessary to protect whites, coloureds and Asiatics from the Bantus.”

This was in 1960. You might dismiss these unions at the time as reactionary unions, that is your prerogative, but this is fact, this is actual history.

Then in the US you find the same sentiment being echoed around the same time that, minimum wages had a great deal to do with the protection of established white worker interests to the detriment of the contesting employees.

And here, Congressman Miles Oldgood testified in support of the Davis act of 1931, and I quote: “That contractor has cheap coloured labour that he transports, and he puts them in cattle, and it is labour of that sort that is in competition with White labour throughout the country.”

I could go on and on, it is very, very sad history to know about the historical background and distorted perspective to the minimum wages, that we are championing these days.

I am not saying we should do that, it is not in my brief and I could never succeed in conscientising you. It is your cause, but I focus on unintended consequences. I look at the effects of policy. If you listen to advocates of minimum wage laws, you find that there are really good, noble, well intentioned people. I have no doubt about that, no doubts at all.

There well-intentioned motivations, however, despite the altruistic concerns and considerations and the nobility behind the idea, I advocate very strongly that we focus on the effects of policy, at the effects of minimum wage laws, for an example.

The point is, effects are very important consequences of policy are far more important than the noble intentions because the effects are the reality, that is what we are stuck with, that is what we have to deal with.

Just to use an example, borrowing an analogy from Walter Williams, the columnist “the rules of the game determine the winners of the game”, the effects are very important, if I were to come of these building, for an example, and Mr Vavi was driving a truck and unintentionally he drives over me and kills me, if were to come over to me while I am on the other side of the river Jordan, and he says Temba I did not intend to kill you.

Well I am as dead as if he intended to, it makes no difference. So the intention whether noble or it should take cognisance of are not really important. What are important are the effects of policy that is what is important. Now, minimum-wage law is one of the rules of the game in the economic arena.

That disadvantages, the low skilled young people. If you are running a company, you look at the most productive employees, and if you are faced with having to cut down on cost, such as production costs.

You look at that sector of your workforce that you might consider as dispensable on the basis of not really commanding high skills resource. So they are unskilled, so they are young, these are the first casualties that you get rid of.

For example, if you look at what has happened in some parts of the country, like in the Western Cape, where there has been an increase in the minimum-wage law levels, you will find that one firm that has gotten rid of three hundred people.

I will not name the firm because some people fear that there might be repercussions, but is something that I have been able to authenticate.

Even the minister of labour has acknowledged that more than 2 000 jobs has been lost in the process as a consequence of the increase in the minimum wage, that have recently been announced.

I am not against the increase in minimum wages at all, but what I am talking about is: if you implement minimum wage laws, there is going to be consequences so you need to focus on those consequences.

In 1938, when the federal minimum-wage law was implemented in the US, the unincorporated territory of the American Samoa was affected very seriously, and Porte Rico, and another unincorporated territory of the US was affected very detrimentally.

In Porte Rico, for an example, in 1938 within the first year of minimum wage laws being enacted in that territory, over a 120 000 jobs were lost; and pushed the unemployment levels close to 50%.

In American Samoa, there was a proposed minimum wage increase in 2011/12. And what happened was, the effects were so pronounced detrimentally, that President Obama enacted a law that requires that proposed increases for 2012 be held back or be delayed.

To congress in 2012 on increases on minimum-wage laws, Governor Togiola Telefono commented thus: “We are watching our economy burn down; we know what to do to stop it. We need to bring aggressive wage costs decreed by the federal government under control. Our job market is being torched. Our businesses are being depressed, our hope for growth has been driven away.”

I have a slide that I want to share with you, for us to really understand what is happening in this country. I was going share with you a slide that shows a chew of over 10 000 people.

We were chewed outside our municipal offices, for 30 jobs that had been advertised. That is a lot of people, they had been waiting for almost four hours in the queues. That is how serious the situation is. You know what the problem with minimum wage is? We have to understand that we are a developing country and, by definition, that means that we are labour intensive.

As opposed to being capital intensive, which means we have a surplus of labour. And that labour must be absorbed in the economy. This means we have a labour sector that is very sensitive to market wage fluctuation and many other increases.

We are a developing economy, and we are faced with increased demands for wages, and there is nothing wrong with that. The point is you must understand that we compete with other markets globally.

On the basis of competitive production costs, one of those costs is labour costs. We lose to our competitors on the basis that they are able to lower their production costs. And that is why we are losing foreign direct investment, not only just to China, but also to other African countries, to the North of us.

These are the realities. This is what we are talking about. And so faced with these demands, we must do what South African enterprises do. They do what you and I would do in the same situation. You would consider investing more on capital as opposed to labour. That is what you would do if you were running a business. I bet you would do that! Let us just be honest about this!

For instance, one of the things that happened as a consequence of the introduction of the minimum wage laws or federal minimum wage laws in the US was the fact that many of the hotels started investing in machines, dish-washing machines.

This displaced a number of people who used to wash dishes, and so on in other industries. And so we have a situation here where there is a contradiction between the good intentions which are noble, and the negative detrimental unintended consequences of policy.

That is what we are faced with, and I advocate that we focus more on the effects, than just at ourselves on the back, and say oh yeah, this is we want to do away with exploitation. We do not want our fellow men being exploited by our fellow men.

Exploitation can be a relative concept because for a foreigner form Zimbabwe, for example, looking at the levels of wages that are being paid. They might say, for an example, ‘I want to work at this level I would accept the job at this level,’ and subject yourself to exploitation, but this is an improvement from my own personal socioeconomic environment or circumstances.

Instead of not having job at least I am able to keep the wolf from the door. If you look at the so-called foreigners in this country, you will find that if you compare them with South Africans, more or less they are at the same level of education and capabilities.

You will find that slowly they are getting somewhere, and this is one of the things that resulted in xenophobia, because South Africans get stuck retaliating, reacting and saying, they are taking our jobs that they themselves rejected.

Sometimes when we look, we look at policy and it also important that we look at the effects of policy. This is what I want to keep on emphasising over and over again. I know that at the end of this you will not like me that much, but the thing is: this is our country, ladies and gentlemen, my brothers and my sisters. Comrades and colleagues we are faced with this situation, where the unemployment crisis is getting worse. It is catastrophic! We cannot have the situation where we have 7.5 million people unemployed.

We have had job summits, we have had all sorts of victims, conferences and so on, but what have they delivered ... nothing!

In order for us to address the whole unemployment crisis, we need to look at the bigger picture. And that bigger picture says that we need to bring about policy dispensation scenario that is going to involve as many South Africans as possible. Which is what happened in Hong Kong when they implemented the free market oriented economic policies, which is also what happened in Mauritius when they implement a free market oriented policies. Whether at they have in Mauritius is an empowerment crisis, they turn things around.

So the big picture is very important, and given that this big picture, we need to ask ourselves: what has caused these problems that relate to unemployment, crime and other socioeconomic consequences? At the end of the day, let us be honest.

The kind of situation we are faced with, high unemployment levels are the consequences of government policy, and they are not a consequence of businesses that do not want to employ people. I am not a spokesperson for business at all, but I am talking economic realities and socioeconomic realities.

Government is to blame for the unemployment levels that we have in this country. And so government can undo the damage that has been done.

The unemployment that we have is not a matter of destiny, it is a matter of choices made in terms of policies that have been enacted.

So what the government should do to address this problem is: to do away with all the policies that impede the spirit of enterprise, that is all that is needed.

Do away with the inefficient legislative, regulatory policy barriers to entry in the economic arena. In other words, colloquially, people might say we must lower the costs of doing business, but in real terms all that it means is: you do away with the artificial unnecessary barriers to entry.

And you will find that as the consequence of this, that people are going to be employed, because there will be a proliferation of businesses, particularly the small business sector, and More people being employed.

Government does not employ people, it employs people thanks to the tax payer. So that it subsidise job creation, the private sector and companies use their own capital to start up jobs to employ people to generate wealth. Government does not create work it consumes work.

We know this by now, we have seen it in dramatic terms; especially with some castles being built somewhere, and so on.

We are growing in South Africa, the economic growth rate at 3.2%, I think that is now at 3.3%. No jobs are going to be created, and so many people are not going to participate in the economic arena in the context of being employed by companies.

And who is overtaking us? It is Ethiopia, growing at 10.1%; it is Mozambique, growing at 7.2%; it is Burkina Faso, growing at 7 %. It is all these countries that we are losing to. It is speculated that this time in two years or three years Nigeria will overtake us an economic power house in the Sub Saharan region.

On that note let me step down, I thank you.

EW: Thank You Temba Nolutshungu. I think we have had two excellent presentations. I would like to focus on two key points made by Mr Nolutshungu. He introduced that the minimum wage is there to protect a section of the workforce, rather than the interests of all. It is a sectional interest of those who already have jobs. He focused on our history, the second point he made was about the consequences, or rather the unintended consequences.

Lucky people have results, unlikely people have consequences.

I am reminded of Albert Einstein, whose purely mathematical work lent to the splitting of the which led of course to Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the dropping of bombs in Japan in 1945.

He is said to have remarked after the incident: “That had I known what would happen to my mathematical work, I would have rather stuck to making watches.”

Yes, there are unintended consequences, the unintended consequences that Temba focused on was that: a minimum wage would destroy jobs and that people would be replaced by machines; where labour is seen as a cost and not capital, especially in the context of global competition.

» The next City Press-Chris Hani Institute debate takes place on May 24 and will be on the issue of the National Development Plan

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