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In the third of the Nelson Mandela Foundation's In Conversation With series to commemorate the former president's 90th birthday this year, Makaziwe Mandela talks to Tara Turkington about caring, leadership and strong women.

TARA Turkington (TT): I think that you embody the ideal South African ... many people in one. You’ve taken on many roles and performed them exceptionally well – social worker, anthropologist, mother, educationist and businesswoman. You exemplify the proactive type of person we need in South Africa. Above all, you’re a strong woman.

Makaziwe Mandela (MM): I think there are a lot of strong women. There are many more families headed by women than by men. I think women need to be courageous enough to bring their instinct of nurturing and caring to the corporate world.

TT: You started your career as a social worker and became an anthropologist so you have a caring, constructive background.

MM: I’ve always had a desire to make a difference in whatever field I’m in. I also want to make a difference in the way I relate to my children. I have four children of my own but I always say I have 10 since my late brother’s children look up to me as an aunt, mother, father ...

TT: Do they all live with you?

MM: They don’t live here but they come for Sunday lunch, so there’s a strong sense of family. I love creating a nurturing and caring environment.

And I believe institutions that care for their employees help people to live longer and prosper. An autocratic workplace creates animosity. People should be encouraged to think for themselves.

TT: What about South Africa? Have we lost our sense of ubuntu, as some of the older people say? Or is it just natural for older people to criticise younger people?

MM: Every generation believes that their era was the best of eras ... there’s a tendency to over-glorify the past.

I remember the first time I went to Cape Town to visit my dad ... I got on the train and my mom just handed me over to an elder person and said to this woman, “Take care of my child”, and she took care of me like I was her own.

I was only 16 then because I could only go to visit my father, who was in prison, once I had an ID book.

I think African people have lost some elements of ubuntu. Allied to this is the capitalist system which is selfish, individualistic and materialistic.

You don’t get satisfaction from materialism – you get satisfaction from helping somebody else, from making a difference.

Building a person’s self-esteem is something that will last forever and that person will pass it on to somebody else.

TT: So is that how we change society? If you look at the big problems that face us, like poverty and the oppression of women, how do we relate those massive problems to individuals each doing their own little bit?

MM: If we don’t change from inside as individuals, change won’t last. That’s not to say I discount group effort, but it always starts with the individual.

TT: I think it’s also about leadership, to come to your father’s legacy.

MM: We make the mistake of saying that only special people are endowed with leadership abilities. It’s inherent in all of us. I believe there are many Nelson Mandelas, Chief Albert Luthulis, Robert Sobukwes and Oliver Tambos.

Something we have to start doing in South Africa is to train young leaders. You can teach children leadership and responsibility from a young age and I think this is what we lack in our education system.

TT: Is there a way we can use your father’s legacy better than we already do to inspire a younger generation?

MM: I know that schools teach the history of South Africa and the ANC talks a lot about Nelson Mandela. It’s fine to teach, but I think we also have to give children the opportunity to gain experience.

It’s more than just a history lesson: there should be some practical lesson attached.

If we truly want to create a culture that’s different, there has to be much more experiential learning. Children have to feel it.

Some black children have never been to Soweto or Alexandra, they only know the suburbs and the malls. Parents have to start exposing our children to real-life issues.

Even the people who claim to know Mandela, don’t. Mandela is not this larger-than-life character. He was once a rural boy who walked to school with no shoes. When we portray him as a saint, people can’t emulate him because they are only human.

TT: I’d like to ask your thoughts on business. It has often been criticised for being the most conservative sector of society and slow to change.

MM: Disposable money is still found mainly among whites. Because business reflects the society we live in, it has been very slow to change. Society has to change and business will follow.

One thing we need to address is the lack of courage and confidence to make uncomfortable decisions.

Leadership is about making those who are comfortable, uncomfortable. This is where I think leadership has failed or is failing in South Africa.

TT: It’s easy to sit back and forget when you’re enjoying a better lifestyle.

MM: I’m including myself. It’s easy to forget, but if we are going to be true to ourselves and the struggle of our forefathers and grandmothers, we must be prepared to see reality as it is.

I think what prevails in Africa is the system of patriarchy because government tends to be the major source of income.

Because many businesses depend on government, we lack the courage to criticise. Criticising doesn’t mean that you are destroying something, there is also positive criticism.

We need to create real dialogue and debate because that’s where we find common ground. We can only grow by discussing and sharing.

Nobody knows it all, not even Nelson Mandela.

One of the things he learnt from leaders who went before him in Transkei is: “I can only become a leader if those around me can voice their different opinions.”

He believes that even if you have already made up your mind, you should allow people to discuss and debate issues because there could be something you might have overlooked.

TT: I’d like to ask about your mother, Evelyn Mase. Having read a little about her and spoken to a few people who met her, she was clearly a very strong woman who was quiet, in the background, but remarkable.

MM: A mom is the best thing in every child’s life. My mom, Evelyn, was a very strong woman. She was a cousin of Walter Sisulu and when she came from Transkei she lived with the Sisulus and trained at Coronation Hospital in the late 1940s.

She was an orphan, her parents had died when she was three. She grew up with the Titus family and that’s how she met my father. She actually paid for my father’s education so he could become a lawyer.

My mom was quiet but strong. She didn’t just bring us up, she took care of her brothers, sisters and grandchildren. She was a religious person and I think that’s what sustained her over the years.

She was a loving mother and grandmother ... She was a good cook and taught us how to cook. She was a nurse and ran her brother’s butchery for a while.

She worked all her life until Transkei became independent and Kaizer Matanzima encouraged her to go back and buy a shop. She bought a general dealership in Cofimvaba and worked there as a businesswoman.

TT: It sounds like she was way ahead of her time.

MM: There were a couple of women who ran businesses but it was rare.

My mom loved gardening, grew her own vegetables and had cattle and chickens. She was a busy and extremely independent woman.

She was also a disciplinarian. In her house, as a girl, you couldn’t be seen lazing about. We worked hard, we cleaned and did chores like taking turns to cook – even the grandchildren learnt that.

Though my dad wasn’t around most of the time, there were many people who supported us. I grew up surrounded by aunts and uncles and my father’s younger brother. He is still alive and living in Cape Town.

At the time, he was working in Johannesburg as a labourer but was always there for us. When we wanted dresses for Christmas, he would buy them for us. I still have very fond memories of Bhut’ Tsheketshe.

We received help from people who didn’t have much to give. ) A full version of the conversation is available on the foundation’s website at www.nelsonmandela.org

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