News24

Christians all hot and cross about Woolies

2012-03-29 09:30

Georgina Guedes

A friend of mine has a postcard on her fridge of a man with a smoking gun. It says “Good things about what I have done: All the silly people are now dead. Bad things about what I have done: I’m the only person left in the world.”

Some days, I sympathise.

I know I’m wading into dangerous custard here, but if Woolworths wants to go ahead and put a halaal sticker on their hot cross buns, they should go right ahead as far as I’m concerned. To everyone who has their self-righteous knickers in a knot about this, please get a little perspective.

Woolworths did not sprinkle your heaven-sent buns with a half teaspoon of dirty Muslim dust to make them Halaal. They were probably prepared in the same bakery as all other confectionaries, and are therefore automatically halaal.

Would you prefer that Woolworths brushes the buns with a little pork glaze as they come off the production line to stop other religions from getting their grubby paws on our divine cookies?

Christianity doesn’t have any regulations about how food may be prepared. They’ve chosen to ignore that part of the Old Testament (yet cling with cinnamon-and-raisin-sticky fingers to the bit about homosexuality), and can eat whatever they like, mixed with whatever, served with cream. Good job, carry on.

I have broken bread with Jewish and Muslim friends alike, and celebrated their holy days with them, and appreciate these gestures of interfaith sharing as a sign of all the goodness encapsulated in Love One Another - an ethos I believe to be worth following, no matter what your religious background or levels of conviction.

And if I’m cruising the aisles of my local Spar and I feel like helping myself to a punnet of sticky teglach (nom!), you’d better believe that I’m going to, without any concerns for my immortal soul over what prayers have been offered to Hashem to make them parev.

Other religions do have food regulations and without the appropriate sticker, those who practice their faith observantly may not eat the food. So religious Muslims may not eat hot cross buns without that sticker because it's like a “certified vegan sticker” for vegetarians or “guaranteed nut free” for those with an allergy. It's informative about the preparation process - a process which in no way excludes those who eat meat or eat nuts.

Are Christians actually suggesting that Muslims be barred from eating the buns? If not, then they need the sticker. If you are, then that’s a dangerous form of religious separatism you're advocating right there.

- Georgina Guedes is a freelance writer. You can follow @georginaguedes on Twitter.

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Comments
  • Henry.E.S.Moorcroft - 2012-03-29 10:03

    You are right ( I suppose), but why then put a halaal sticker on it in the first place? You won't see a 'Jesus saves' sticker on Muslim foods during Ramadan. This all just smacks of Woolworths(less)greed. They don't care about Christians, Muslims ect. It's all about the money. And rightfully so, they are a business. So they (W) have a right and Christians and Muslims aslo have a right to decide to shop there too. My Rands will not go to 'Wollies' because they are pulling the 'Wool-lies' over our eyes. Easter is in any case not what this is all about. They can do whatever they want. Happy Easter all!!!! Muslims you too.

      J-Man - 2012-03-29 10:06

      "Easter is in any case not what this is all about." - exactly - why the big fuss then? Its just a bun FFS.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 10:15

      Henry, take a step back and read what your wrote again... I rest my case?

      dracolusus - 2012-03-29 10:32

      A Jesus saves sticker is a little different to a Halaal sticker, don't you think? Apparently not. This is the religious retardation that needs to be eradicated from the world. If you have a sense of humour and are wiling to see the insanity, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

      jpstrauss - 2012-03-29 10:38

      I have the intellectual and moral high ground; I get my philosophy from Youtube.

      Karshni - 2012-03-29 11:17

      Henry, did God or your scripture say to you that you must not eat food that is halaal certified? This is about respecting people's religious practices. And like the article says the certification sign is there to provide information on how the product was prepared. At the end of the day, you are correct, Woolworths is there to make money and like any business they are going about it by ensuring that a part of their target market is correctly informed about the hot cross buns. And to be quite frank, I dont think it occurred to them that people could be so narrow minded. Find me a religious scripture which would condone the behaviour of the so-called good christians who are feeling so violated right now. Lastly, the hot cross bun is traditional and not religious, just like easter eggs, which also have halaal certification!

      jody.beggs - 2012-03-29 12:43

      @dracolusus love the link. Puts things into perspective! Damn the man.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 13:10

      Halaal just means that the food was prepared and cooked in a kitchen that adheres to certain rules, including cleanliness, no pork etc... So what is the issue? The halaal sticker should be an indication to everyone that at least the buns were made in a bakery/kitchen that is clean and does not have pork/alcohol near it. FFS christians, build a bridge and get over it.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 13:24

      Jody, what is this "damn the man" stuff you are always saying?

      jody.beggs - 2012-03-29 14:19

      @wesley.bischoff. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=damn+the+man

      goyougoodthing - 2012-03-29 19:38

      Henry it's about food preparation, not about jesus saving anyone or not. Your statement is foolish.

  • Greg - 2012-03-29 10:04

    What does a hot cross bun have to do with Christianity? Nothing - I can't find any refrence to hot cross buns in the Bible. Please people, those so-called "Christians" fighting Woolies are latterday "sheeple" and do not represent true Christianity.

      mbossenger - 2012-03-29 12:29

      And for that matter, what does easter have to do with christianity? It's actually a hijacked pagan festival that pre dates christianity.

      loffie.leroux - 2012-03-30 00:27

      PilgrimX you are right nothing. The hot cross bun is all about exploitation. About the commercialisation of a Feast of GOD the Father of Jesus Christ the LAMB which was slain on passover but has risen. The passover feast is what "easter" is all about for the true disciples of Jesus Christ. The date each year comes from the Jewish calender which says it is on the 14th day after the start of the month. Clearly the "world system" has hijacked this Christian feast for their own purposes. For sure not a pagan feast hijacked by Christianity. Yes religious Christians tend to miss what the Gospel is all about, a relationship with Jesus, not a set of rules to please Him to score brownie points. It is what happened on this "weekend" that makes the Christian faith different from all other faiths.

      Tim - 2012-03-30 14:24

      @loffie.leroux "Clearly the "world system" has hijacked this Christian feast for their own purposes." Actually, Christianity hijacked it from elsewhere first, so maybe this is just poetic justice to have it hijacked from them. In fact, a lot of pagan traditions and traditions from other religions were adopted into Christianity for the pure sake of making Christianity more attractive to people than the competing faiths of the day. Basically, the early Christians just had somewhat better PR than the competing religions, but in the end they had not more substance of divinity than any other religion. "It is what happened on this "weekend" that makes the Christian faith different from all other faiths." Actually, it makes it the similar to aspects of many faiths predating Christianity by hundreds of years and even longer. Ressurection is not a phenomenon peculiar to Christianity. Not by a long shot...

  • jpstrauss - 2012-03-29 10:07

    I love how the world and his dog feels the urge to proscribe to Christians how they should or shouldn't act, but when a Christian tries to do the same, it is somehow "intolerant".

      jpstrauss - 2012-03-29 11:21

      Try me.

      Tim - 2012-03-29 13:42

      Proscribe *snicker* Nice one... And yes, your Jesus was so tolerant, he had himself nailed to a slab of wood. Maybe there's a lesson there. Oh, but wait, who am I to expect Christians to actually behave like Christ. My mistake...

      jpstrauss - 2012-03-29 13:57

      It's not MY fault, or problem for that matter, if you cannot understand a turn of phrase. Your lack of insight is further highlighted by your observably and demonstrably crude grasp of Christian theology as well as philosophy. But please do go ahead and explain to me how you are intellectually and spiritually supperior.

      Tim - 2012-03-29 14:18

      Just because it has the words "theology" and philosophy" in it does not make it fact. If you can prove your religion is true I will give it all the respect it deserves.

      Tim - 2012-03-29 14:20

      But for now, I will give your religion the same level of respect I give the Loch Ness Monster, Sarel Seemonster, The Telly Tubbies and those guys from The A-Team.

      jpstrauss - 2012-03-29 17:48

      You can only criticise that which you understand. If you don't even KNOW the tenets of Christianity, how can you critique it?

      Tim - 2012-03-29 18:26

      @jpstrauss I actually understand it very well and critique it here. http://blog.strangecrewstudios.com/#post3

      zaatheist - 2012-03-29 19:59

      You can only criticise that which you understand. Well then some of your willfully ignorant bretheren should STFU about science.

  • Shane - 2012-03-29 10:37

    I personally dont think it is about the HCB. I think it is more about the fact that Halaal stickers are being put on every food stuff in the store. As a christian (not a bible basher) i do care about where my food comes from and what i eat. It is a fallacy to think that i will eat whatever. This isnt true. I did some looking into with regards to the halaal sticker on food stuffs and apparently, a % of the money you pay goes to the muslim council here in SA and the amount per annum was something like $580 billion. Here is a link: http://www.intouchmission.org/wp-content/uploads/0808_islamic-halaal.pdf another link confirming what is said in link above with regards to certain statements: http://www.ehow.com/about_5079235_definition-halal-food.html I have no issue with muslims wanting to eat halaal but i dont want to be forced to buy halaal. I should have at least the choice.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 11:17

      No one forces you to buy Halaal, you eat Halaal everyday. KFC, Steers, Nando's all are Halaal - even McDonalds is Halaal! The ignorance of people is actually the real issue here.

      thurlo.cicero - 2012-03-29 11:49

      I dont have any problems either - but non-muslims are forced to buy halaal products that does not need certification, generating a wealthy income to these muslim certification bodies. It is also true, that a halaal product is generally more expensive than one that does not carry the certification, because the cost of its certification is included above the price. Breads, fruits, milk etc does not need any type of certification besides its health indications and ingredients - Halaal Certifications has become a multi-million business and hence we see its sticker is placed on everything imaginable.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 12:32

      Again thurlo, you are not forced to buy Halaal products - *sigh*

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 13:36

      So we must just accept Muslim customs/rules, but allah forbid they even THINK about accepting some of our customs/rules. Kinda hippocratic don't you think? I'm all for accepting different cultures, sexualities etc... but why must i be surcharged now, and help contribute to making muslim fat cats on the halaal council richer?

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 14:14

      wesley, the point of this is not about the cost to you but the outrage of Christians over a sticker...

      Peter - 2012-03-29 14:22

      Thank you. I want the flippen CHOICE! I don't think the halaal sticker changes the content or eddibility of the food, but I have been given NO choice in the matter. I want HB's from Woollies 'cause they are lekker --- but now I HAVE to buy them Halaal? Pro-choice? I think not.

      Peter - 2012-03-29 14:24

      PointBlank --- Actually I am. Please show me an affordable store stocking only non-Halaal? Or even non-Halaal Chickens? Or fast foods, or .... Oh the list goes on?

      Shane - 2012-03-29 21:28

      @pointblank - Ok, to say that no one forces me to buy halaal and then in the next breath state i eat it all the time because it is everywhere is a little contradictory, dont you think? Ignorance may be an issue, but i dont think it is with the people you are insinuating are ignorant. The issue is choice, why dont i have the choice? Why must i submit to another religion so that their "customs" are met but they will not show me the same tolerance?

      celeste.rsa - 2012-03-30 17:38

      @ PointBlank "No one forces you to buy Halaal, you eat Halaal everyday." Of course we're being forced - do we have the option to buy from non-halaal KFC, Steers and McDonalds??

  • lunghile.ndleve - 2012-03-29 11:07

    Well written Georgina... Sometimes I wish I was not born into Christianity. We are so full of ourselves that we think that every other religion is wrong.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 11:18

      You do know you can always leave and believe in God outside of Christianity?

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 13:38

      ... Or not believe in any fairy god man, and know that the higher power is actually the energy in our universe... which actually exists, contrary to deities which have no proof of existence.

  • liz.haskin - 2012-03-29 11:07

    U go girl!

  • Christo - 2012-03-29 11:19

    If Halaal stickers works for Woolworths as a business, let them put it on. If you don't like it, buy your hot cross buns from Pick & Pay or SPAR. Simple.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 11:28

      It actually costs Woolworths to put those stickers there, they put them there because they respect Muslims - sadly the fundamental Christians see it as disrespecting them! Those self-serving, intolerant bunch! :)

      Dewald - 2012-03-29 12:15

      Uhm - pointblank - who is paying for it in the end? The consumer. And why should they?

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 12:34

      I agree Dewald... Halaal certification is dubious, but the practise is not and Muslims would like to be reassured that what they buy is in fact Halaal.. Think broadly.. Understand each other..

      Peter - 2012-03-29 14:28

      Then, PB, Understand that I don't want any of my money going to the relevant Muslim councils. Respect my views also. Alternatively, have the funds paid out to MY choice of charity at Point of Sale please. It is not about the sticker. It is about the principle of choice. Don't you get it?

      Tim - 2012-03-29 15:49

      @Peter And I want to choose which religions do not get tax breaks at my expense each month when my taxes go off. Could you please make that happen? Oh, wait...it's only about choice when religious people get to choose, right?

      Kerryn - 2012-03-29 15:59

      Sigh...money. The root of all evil. "I don't want my money supporting other religions." Bla, bla, effing bla!! It's just paper with value. There are more important things to worry about in the world than money. Besides,is it really burning such a hole in your pocket to pay an extra few rand/cents to for a sticker that puts the Muslim mind at ease? Let's forget about materialistic issues and just share the love :)

      Tim - 2012-03-29 16:33

      Religion in a nutshell: 1. Prophet 2. ? 3. Profit

      loffie.leroux - 2012-03-30 00:35

      Kerryn get the facts right .... it says in the WORD the love of money is the root of all evil not money !!!

  • Dewald - 2012-03-29 11:32

    I will not buy it - for the simple fact that the sticker on the buns is costing money (for the sticker and for the Halaal accreditation) and I am paying for it. And I have no idea where that money is going. It might be sponsoring terror, female abuse, and other 'nice' things that sign represents (my personal own experiences is enough for me to base decisions on). I WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING WITH THAT SIGN.

      Robert - 2012-03-29 11:47

      Sponsoring terror?? Don't you think that's a little short sighted? Its to increase the amount of consumer, nothing more. Ignorance

      stuart.steedman - 2012-03-29 12:06

      Boy you are a whole 'nother brand of retarded, @Dewald

      Dewald - 2012-03-29 12:10

      I would say that it is shortsighted to give money to a group that MIGHT have some fundamentalist subgroups or ties to them. I am not saying they are all like that, but why should I take that chance?

      Felix - 2012-03-29 12:31

      Yeah, rather support the old pedophiles with their catamites. What don't you like generalizing?

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 12:35

      Oh Dewald, so anything Muslim "might" have a terrorism angle to it... how fundamentally retarded.

      Bilal - 2012-03-29 13:06

      then I suggest you abstain from ALL Halaal things Dewald. Please note that water, fruit, vegetables and oxygen are ALL HALAAL. Please abstain from any foodstuffs containing these noxious ingredients!!!

      Tim - 2012-03-29 15:20

      @Dewald Then I suggest you also stop paying taxes and see how far that gets you. The current South African government has a history of terrorism too. In fact, most ex-colonial contries that won independence from a parent country has some history of terrorism which some would advocate as revolutionist or patriotic. That does not mean that the money you are taxed today goes towards terrorism. If you want to argue on "might" alone then you "might" as well stop doing anything and lock yourself in a cave or something because then you are just being irrationally fearful. So abstaining from buying a product from a well-established and respected outlet because it is selling a product with a Halal mark that "might" fund terrorism is like saying I am not putting fuel in my car because the oil comes from a Muslim country and it might buy weapons for them. The world is bigger than you think and the interconnectivity of matters run broader than you seem to appreciate. Do you know where all your tax money is going? Do you know what your health insurance company invests in? Do you know what the company that insures your home and its contents invest in? Do you know how your mobile phone operator invests its capital and who it does business with in order to provide you with a service? No, I did not think you did...

      Dewald - 2012-03-29 15:54

      Tim - I will excercise whatever choices I still have.

      Tim - 2012-03-29 16:06

      @Dewald - then make up your mind. Either you care where your money is going or you don't. You cannot have it both ways. It seems the only choice you are making is the choice to cry foul at other religions while you probably turn a blind eye to wearing shoes made in a sweat-shop by underpaid and underaged workers or similar atrocities. If you care so much about choice, maybe you should do more homework and notice there are more important choices to make than "Where does the 5c cost of this sticker go". Doing research is a choice too even if it is not necessarily religion-aligned.

  • Cherie - 2012-03-29 11:35

    I was a christian as a child, until I went out of this country and realized how very ignorant christians can be. I am now a happy Bahai south african, which believe all religions are equal and should be respected, we are one and need to know we are all different an believe in different ways, that doesn't make anyone more special than anyone els. Its time christians respect other religions.

      Dan - 2012-03-29 12:24

      It's time that every religion is given the same respect.

      Morgaen - 2012-03-29 13:21

      And if not, Dan? I KEEEL you!!!?

      Tim - 2012-03-29 15:23

      It is tme we respect the religions that can be proven true to their claims.

      Dan - 2012-03-30 12:22

      @Morgaen LOL!!! But so true!

  • shuaib.manjra - 2012-03-29 11:35

    lovely article georgina. the halaal and kosher stickers are simply about ingredients. let's get perspective on this. soon we will have muslims saying we cannot eat hot-cross buns because of the cross.

      thurlo.cicero - 2012-03-29 12:02

      Go to Observatory Pick and Pay, the already made hot cross buns without the cross, because with it - muslims wont buy it. Its gotten to that ;) And who`s being intolerant now?

  • Bob - 2012-03-29 11:41

    Author, you have betrayed your personal bias (and lack of understanding of Christianity) with the "They’ve chosen to ignore that part of the Old Testament" comment. Both the food laws and the homosexuality issue are addressed in the New Testament. It is not a case of selective reading of the Old Testament, it is a case of understanding the OT in the light of the NT.

      stuart.steedman - 2012-03-29 12:08

      Since the Christianity is mostly a fairytale about a gay-hating skywizard sending down his zombie son to save us humans from a curse he inflicted upon us in the first place, I'm going to go ahead and say that I don't really care much for the interpretation of OT vs NT in the same way I don't care about interpretive differences between Harry Potter's "Philosophers Stone" vs "Order of the Phoenix"

      mbossenger - 2012-03-29 12:32

      Stuart for the win!

      jody.beggs - 2012-03-29 13:06

      @Bob exaclty how is homosexuality issue addressed in the New Testament ? As far as I know there are only three vague references to homosexuality.

      Bob - 2012-03-29 13:10

      @ Stuart: my problem is not so much with the fact that the author and yourself do not care to properly understand Christianity, but it is with the fact that you criticise it from your point of ignorance.

      Tim - 2012-03-29 13:32

      Do you keep slaves, Bob?

      Bob - 2012-03-29 13:40

      @Jody: see Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Timothy 1.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 13:48

      Too true Stuart!!!

      Peter - 2012-03-29 14:37

      Oh Timmy Tim Tim ... Go read again. In Short --- MAN decided to keep slaves. In Mosaic Law, humans were ordered to "love those slaves as they loved themselves" --- what does that mean do you think? In the same law, man was ordered to free any slaves they may choose to keep in the seventh year. Now you tell me .... how many people love their domestic servant (not slaves) as they love themselves?

      Tim - 2012-03-29 15:26

      @Peter Have more rope, Petie-Pete-Pete http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m486BhgA2s0

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 15:36

      Oh, so long as you love the slave, and treat him/her as an equal, while at the same time not paying him/her for the work done, and not giving him/her the choice/freedom to do as he/she pleases, then its ok?

      Tim - 2012-03-29 15:46

      The problem with most Christians is that they only read the parts of the Bible that make them feel good and/or allow them to do what they want when they want. Yeah, nice, you can set your slave free in the 7th year, but his wife and children begot while in your service belong to you. What slave would want the freedom if it meant leaving his family behind. Blackmail: the most noblest of Christian traits.

      Shane - 2012-04-01 13:32

      @Tim: - Speaking of only reading certain parts, i think that is exactly what you have done. What amazes me, is that people are willing to respect other religions and not christianity. A halaal sticker on a HCB for example is no sweat but should a christian state that they are not happy with it, then they are being unreasonable and blackmailing others. Quite hippocritical of you dont you think? You mentioned slavery, so i did a quick search, here are some links for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery Here it states quite clearly, that slavery was in existance long before christianity. "Slavery predates written records and has existed in many cultures" Islamic views on slavery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery Jewish views on slavery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_slavery Am i advocating slavery? No way!. Would i keep slaves? No way! In my view, the bible shows us the history that we have endured and what we must do to be better people. Instead of looking at just the negative aspects of christianity, why dont you look at the positives? How many people have been helped in times of need? Not just by christianity but by all religions? How many soup kitchens are run by corporate companies? How many orphanages? How many people have been clothed, fed, educated because of religion? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soup_kitchen "they are often staffed by volunteer organizations, such as church groups"

      Shane - 2012-04-01 13:36

      @Tim: continued: - So, the crux of the matter is this, do we, followers of another faith, want a halaal sticker on a food and what it represents? No. What we want is the choice. I would prefer non-halaal as stated in my reasons in a previous post and for my own beliefs. "Be the change you want to see in the world."

      Tim - 2012-04-02 19:59

      @Shane If you read any of my other posts you might come to realize that I hold all religions in equal disdain. The only reason I single out the Christians *in this istance* is because they are the ones making the noise this time around. If it were Muslims or Jews or Hindus or any other religion (none of which can even prove the the god(s) they represent and and for whom they get into a huff) making a hooh-ha about something as trivial as a bun, I would point and laugh just as much. The funny thing is this: you do not want a Halal stricker on it, yet you have no issue whatsoever that Woollies has been making tons of money off your supposed Christian symbol since even before they put the Halal symbol on it. Sounds a bit like the kind of stupidity your Jesus would have chased from his temple.

      Tim - 2012-04-02 20:10

      As for the slavery issue, this: Ex. 21:20-21. "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; afor he is his property." I am not saying slavery was peculiar to or invented by Christianity, but it is endorsed, and even covered in laws handed down to Moses and, in turn, to the Israelites by the God of Christianity. So, in that regard the bible is not only teaching us what we endured, it actually shows what was perfectly acceptable to the god of the bible. Why is slavery not amongst the things forbidden by the Ten Commandments? Perhaps because the God who wrote them did not think it a sin?

      Shane - 2012-04-03 11:16

      @Tim: - “If you read any of my other posts you might come to realize that I hold all religions in equal disdain.” Apparently not as much as you do towards Christianity. “The only reason I single out the Christians *in this instance* is because they are the ones making the noise this time around” As opposed to the Muslims if the halaal stamp wasn’t on the food? “you do not want a Halal stricker on it, yet you have no issue whatsoever that Woollies has been making tons of money off your supposed Christian symbol since even before they put the Halal symbol on it” What I said was I have no issue with Muslims wanting to eat halaal, but I want the CHOICE of food prepared in a specific way. (Non-halaal) as that would be my primary choice. As for the Christian food in Woolworths, where is the Christian symbol put for me to look for on food stuffs? Are you talking about Christmas/easter(Christian) Yannika/passover (Judaism)? In that same vein, all supermarkets also make money off, birthdays, special events, SA public holidays. The issue is that the halaal stamp is always on the food stuffs, Woolworths/supermarkets only make money from Christian/jewish et.al faith’s at a specific time. Not all the time.

      Shane - 2012-04-03 11:17

      @Tim: - continued: - “Sounds a bit like the kind of stupidity your Jesus would have chased from his temple” Sounds more to me that he would be proud that I am standing up for my beliefs.. “I am not saying slavery was peculiar to or invented by Christianity, but it is endorsed, and even covered in laws handed down to Moses and, in turn, to the Israelites by the God of Christianity.” Yet, you keep leaving out Islam in your analysis. The God of Judaism/Christianity is the same God of Islam as they share the same Old Testament scriptures/texts. “it actually shows what was perfectly acceptable to the god of the bible” In that day and age, slavery was a common thing. If you were alive in that time you wouldn’t have batted an eyelid. However, we endure as a people and have learnt to become better. If not for religion, would we still have slaves?

      Tim - 2012-04-03 15:49

      @Shane "The only reason I single out the Christians *in this instance* is because they are the ones making the noise this time around" What part of the above don't you understand? "In that day and age, slavery was a common thing. If you were alive in that time you wouldn’t have batted an eyelid. However, we endure as a people and have learnt to become better. If not for religion, would we still have slaves?" I am not saying there would not be slavery without religion (or only with specific religions). I am questioning the morality of a God who not only allows it, but actively gives Law that endorses it. If God has perfect morality, he would not condone it regardless of whether or not the people of the time practiced it as part of a daily life. He seems to have clung on to the issue of homosexuality throughout the ages so it is rather interesting that he did not care as much about slavery which is arguably much worse.

      Shane - 2012-04-03 21:07

      @Tim: “What part of the above don't you understand?” I understand what you are saying, but I think you are missing the point I am trying to make. What I am saying is, if the halaal stamp wasn’t on the food (meat/milk/sugar etc…) then the Muslims would be having marches, firing their guns off in the CBD like they did back in the late 1990’s/early 2000’s (Pagad anyone?) They would demand that they be recognized and given respect for their religion. I don’t have a problem with people following their own religion and the laws within; in fact I applaud you if you do. I do however don’t understand why a group of 1.5% of a total population are given respect and the rest of us are not

      Shane - 2012-04-03 21:15

      @Tim: continued - “Morality of a God who not only allows it, but actively gives Law that endorses it” Did Jesus not say that peace and love are the way? In the bible it states quite clearly love your neighbor as you would love yourself, do unto others as you would have them do unto you? To me, this isn’t endorsing slavery (which by the way if Christianity endorses slavery then so does Islam/Judaism) but trying to teach us how to be better people. “Clung on to the issue of homosexuality throughout the ages” “Go forth and multiply and be abundant” These were some of his words. I think the fact that homosexuality was an issue is that no multiplying came from it. Even as recently as 15 years ago, it was still frowned upon. But look at the situation now; we are growing in our understanding and for lack of better words, being more open to it. If you look at Muslim countries, they don’t tolerate homosexuality at all. You will get stoned or worse. So really, are we that bad? The issue really here is, i want the choice of what i put in my body. Halaal is not part of my religion and not one of the laws i follow, yet i have to eat food done in the muslim law/way without my consent and with one of my most basic rights being violated - freedom of choice.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 00:04

      @Shane "What I am saying is, if the halaal stamp wasn’t on the food (meat/milk/sugar etc…) then the Muslims would be having marches..." Well, what do you expect? Their religion *REQUIRES* their food to be Halal and they would not know whether or not food is Halal unless it has been certified and marked as such. What? Are you saying Muslims should all starve because there is no way for them to safely (according to their religion) eat the food if they cannot be sure it meets their religious requirements. Just as you believe in all the aspectss of your religion, they truly believe in the aspect of theirs and part of this (unlike is the case with yours) is dietry requirement. The *ARE NOT* allowed to eat non-Halal food. So this has nothing to do (for them) with respect but with a basic human need - feeding. Would you willfully deny them that? "Did Jesus not say that peace and love are the way?" Maybe the Good Samaritan story in the Bible (told by your Jesus) should teach you something here about extending some goodwill to people *not* of your religion/culture/ethnicity. I do not recall Jesus saying anywhere in the Bible "love your neighbour as you love yourseolf...but only if he respects me". So unlike what Jesus is preaching *YOU* want respect and this has sod-all to do with Jesus. You just have an issue because you feel personally insulted. You basically said that much in your demand for respect.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 00:05

      @Shane Ceiling Cat's lolcat, dude, if you don't get that simple concept you are really not trying. I'm pretty sure if all the vegan stickers disappeared from food products there would be riots too - it is pretty much the same thing. The sticker simply tells people of another religion they can safely eat the food according to their customs in the same way that it informs people who willingly want to persue a vegan lifestyle what foods they can eat. It does not degrade your religion in any way. Besides, a bloody sticker is not going to prevent atheists, agnostics, theists, voodoo and wicca practitioners, criminally insane people, Eric Cartman and all manner of other people who are NOT Christian from eating your Christian food - sticker or not. Or will you next demand Woolies make people declare their religion before they are allowed to buy it? But tell me, why should you care anyway? Do you also care as to whether or not the ingredients are produced by non-Christians or is that okay? And the bakers? Are they Christian and are you sure non of them are wearing anti-christ T-shirs while baking the product? I find it funny how you are quick to quote Jesus preaching love (supposedly *unconditionally*) but you put conditions on extending your acceptance to others.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 00:20

      @Shane "Did Jesus not say that peace and love are the way? In the bible it states quite clearly love your neighbor as you would love yourself, do unto others as you would have them do unto you? To me, this isn’t endorsing slavery (which by the way if Christianity endorses slavery then so does Islam/Judaism) but trying to teach us how to be better people." Well, then you have to explain the Biblical contradiction to me. Exodus makes it plain that the God of the Old Testament did endorse (or was at least indifferent to) slavery. If this very same God is *ALSO* the Jesus of the New Testament, then we have a problem which can only be solved with one of the following: 1. God of the OT is NOT the Jesus of the NT. This would imply that: 1.1 There is more than one god (if both were gods) or 1.2 Jesus was not god 2. God of the OT is the Jesus of the NT but he had a change of heart, in which case he cannot be referred to as perfect or absolutely moral or unchanging as many claim (in accordance to scripture). This would diorectly undermine either his: 2.1 divinity or 2.2 the assertion that he is a good god; he might be an evil god in this case.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 00:24

      If god's view on slavery (i.e. owning another person as property, regardless of how good you treat that person, he/she is not free) has changed as the Bible clearly indicates in the Law of Moses (which was GIVEN to Moses by the God of the OT) versus the teaching of Jesus then his morality has changed as well. And in case you did know this bit of Biblical history, the god of the Jews, the Muslims and the Christians are really the same god. Or at least they are based on the same origins so before you feel disrespected again, I am NOT singling out Christians - I would simply expect a true Christian to know this well-documented fact (in their own Bible; You know about Abraham and Hagar, right?) and therefore understand that this is a critique of at least all three Abrahamic religions. Dude, read more...and actually pay attention.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 00:44

      @Shane "I think the fact that homosexuality was an issue is that no multiplying came from it. Even as recently as 15 years ago, it was still frowned upon. But look at the situation now; we are growing in our understanding and for lack of better words, being more open to it." So, now you are saying that despite what your God teaches in the bible, homosexuality is actually okay? (I am perfectly okay with it - again, this is a personal choice). So, based on the slavery issue which has changed from the old to new testament and now your own admission that we are more open to it (are you saying you are okay with it too then?) does this mean to say that your god is in fact adjusting his moral stance on issues like this? If I am inccorect here, please clarify. "If you look at Muslim countries, they don’t tolerate homosexuality at all. You will get stoned or worse. So really, are we that bad?" I know this and it is appalling, I agree. (in case you feel offended that I did not take shot at the muslims for this) "Go forth and multiply and be abundant” I think that in a world of ~7.005 billion people on earth, this is probably not such wise advice anymore...(just saying, don't get mad).

      Tim - 2012-04-04 00:45

      @Shane "The issue really here is, i want the choice of what i put in my body." You do have a choice. You do not have to eat these halaal buns. Who is forcing you to eat them? "Halaal is not part of my religion" Neither is being vegan. Yet, I would bet money that in your lifetime you have probably eaten something certified vegan and did not complain. I am also sure you might have even eaten something Kosher. So, basically you are just saying "I do not want to eat it because a Muslim is allowed to (even if he might not actually want to) and I want to eat something only I can eat because that makes me feel special." Do you complain about those vegan- and nut allergy-safe foods are being forced on you as well? "yet i have to eat food done in the muslim law/way without my consent" You obviously do not know what the words you are using mean. Without your consent means you are made to do it against your will. Has Woolies come to your house, tied you on the bed and then forced you to eat Halal hot cross buns? If so, you should be glad as you'd be able to sue them, but if not, you really should look up the meaning of words before you try to use them to argue your outrage. "and with one of my most basic rights being violated - freedom of choice." Since when is Woolies the only shop that sells hot cross buns? Actually, why don't you not just make your own? Really...this is pathetic.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 00:52

      @Shane Ps. And now for a fun scientific fact that will render this moot anyway. "i want the choice of what i put in my body." You'd be surprised how little choice (supposedly by your god's design) you have in what enters your body. Apart from the obvious like the things you might eat or drink, and the less obvious like viruses and bacteria, anything you *smell* also enters your body in molecular form. You cannot smell anything that does not cause molecules from that substance that you are smelling to enter the nasal passages. So this means that if you even as much as *smell* that nice Halal food that you are so averse to, you have already allowed some of it into your body whether you want it to or not. *GASP!* Cue the outrage (but please direct it at your good for making this design flaw of how your body works). So what the hell are you complaining about? If people spent more time getting a scientific education and less time arguing about retarded things we'd have a much better world.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 01:13

      @Shane In conclusion, instead of being thankful that you *can* eat pretty much *anything* you want according to your faith as opposed to the often heavy restrictions imposed on Muslim and other faiths'diets, you'd rather use your time and energy (and misplaced religious outrage) to try and hoard even more food for yourself and deny it to others (who are already limited in choice). Shame on you! This reminds me of the parable in 2 Samuel 12. I expect that as a Christian you'd be more familiar with these things than I, the atheist. Peace (if you can bring yourself to actually embrace it, buddy).

      Shane - 2012-04-04 11:43

      @Tim: “Their religion *REQUIRES* their food to be Halal” So, you endorse their religion, but Christianity is just making a fuss over nothing? Christians must just accept it and deal with it? I think you are being extremely one sided in this case. You have disdain for all religions but your true colours are starting to show through in this comment. “Are you saying Muslims should all starve” If I were Jewish, would you make the same statement or actually respect that the food be kosher? Must I starve because I want my food prepared in a certain way? “Just as you believe in all the aspects of your religion, they truly believe in the aspect of theirs” Yet, my religion/beliefs get disrespected at every turn. I truly believe in my religion yet I have to concede to theirs? “Extending some goodwill to people *not* of your religion” Same could be said of the Islam faith. Surely filling all supermarkets everywhere with halaal stamps isn’t goodwill but complete disrespect/disregards for others beliefs/religions? “But you put conditions on extending your acceptance to others.” Hypocrite. I have to concede to the conditions of food being prepared in accordance to Islam law and I am not allowed to say anything about it? What’s next? I have to sit back, smile and let sharia law into this country? Like they are trying to do in the UK? If I went to an Islam country, I would have to abide by their rules, why then do I still have to abide by their rules in my own country?

      Shane - 2012-04-04 11:46

      @Tim: - continued: Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64V09tTIjR4&feature=related “I'm pretty sure if all the vegan stickers disappeared from food products there would be riots too” So why then, are there no Christian stamps on food stuffs? Do you not think that offends Christians at all? Is that what it is going to take to get that respect? Rioting? “Or will you next demand Woolies make people declare their religion before they are allowed to buy it?” I think this comment is just basically ridiculous. The issue is that I want the CHOICE as I do not practice Islam. I would like to buy non halaal meat, milk whatever as according to my religion. Do you have a problem with that or should I declare at the till that I want non halaal? “I find it funny how you are quick to quote Jesus preaching love (supposedly *unconditionally*) but you put conditions on extending your acceptance to others.” I find it funny that in my own country, predominately Christian in faith, that I have to buy food with a halaal stamp on it. I also find it funny that when I stand up for my beliefs I meet people like you who judge me on the bible and state that if I don’t act accordingly to exactly what is written in the bible then you find it “funny”. If the roles were reversed and Muslims wanted the halaal stamp on the food would you be making the same comments?

      Shane - 2012-04-04 11:49

      @Tim: - continued: - “Well, then you have to explain the Biblical contradiction to me” Really? Slavery again? Didn’t we go over this one? Are you trying to say that only Christianity has these texts in its scriptures? I think we more than covered this issue and I have answered you with regards to this. 1. God of the OT is NOT the Jesus of the NT. This would imply that: Correct. Jesus = Son of God 2. 1.1 There is more than one god (if both were gods) or : Incorrect – God, Jesus in that order 1.2 Jesus was not god: Correct – SON of God. You also seemed to have missed an important piece to your questions which you may have not yet considered: “For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son so that those who believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” I think that says it all. “If god's view on slavery” What the…? Again? Ok, refer to initial post on slavery. “Dude, read more...and actually pay attention.” Actually, I am ensuring that I answer your question thoroughly. I point it out just in case you have forgotten that part. You notice I put it in (brackets). So I am paying attention, go on… “So, now you are saying that despite what your God teaches in the bible, homosexuality is actually okay?” Like I stated before, I view the bible as a guideline and a history. We are constantly improving as a people/species in our understanding. God sent his son, that would be Jesus, to show us the way, to be the guiding light so to speak.

      Shane - 2012-04-04 11:51

      @Tim: - continued: I think that the acceptance of homosexuality has a lot to do with the Christianity being more open to it and of course media. “Probably not such wise advice anymore...” I do agree that it has reached a point were slowing down should be considered, but remembering at the time it was stated there were not a lot of humans on the planet. :-) “You do have a choice.” Actually, I don’t. The halaal stamp is on every food stuff. I had a look at a packet of chips and guess what? Yep, Halaal stamp on packet. “Neither is being vegan” Yet, do you find the vegan stamp on every food product? No. That is the difference and my point. “Might have even eaten something Kosher” Nope. Not part of my religion/beliefs. "I do not want to eat it because a Muslim is allowed to (even if he might not actually want to) and I want to eat something only I can eat because that makes me feel special." 1. I don’t not want to eat halaal because it is prepared to Islamic law and not according to my religious beliefs. 2. It doesn’t make me feel special but I am sure that the halaal stamp on all food products makes certain people feel very special. A bit hypocritical of you don’t you think? “Do you complain about those vegan- and nut allergy-safe foods are being forced on you as well?” These so called vegan and nut allergy safe foods are not everywhere and are not forced. You seem to not understand that the halaal stamp appears on basically ALL food products.

      Shane - 2012-04-04 11:53

      @Tim: continued: “You obviously do not know what the words you are using mean. Without your consent means you are made to do it against your will.” So when I go to Pick n pay for example and want to purchase my weekly shopping and I stop at the meat counter and look at the meat on display and they all have the halaal stamp on it and there is no other meat except pork, what would you call that? I do not wish to purchase halaal yet I have no choice as there are no other options. Is that not against my will? There are many ways of forcing people against their will, subtly. “Since when is Woolies the only shop that sells hot cross buns? Actually, why don't you not just make your own?” This isn’t just about HCB and woolies. This stamp is everywhere on ALL food stuffs at all supermarkets. You seem to be missing the big picture part here. “You'd be surprised how little choice (supposedly by your god's design) you have in what enters your body.” If someone flatuates, the same applies. Yet, the parts I do have control over in the sense of nourishment as that is the issue here, is something I do have control over. I can decide what I want to put into my body in this context. By trying to state that you cannot control smell is a weak attempt at trying to get the upper hand.

      Shane - 2012-04-04 11:55

      @Tim: continued: “If people spent more time getting a scientific education and less time arguing about retarded things we'd have a much better world.” Correction: If people respected others in their beliefs and found compromise then the world would be a better place. Doesn’t matter what education you have if you don’t have respect. “You *can* eat pretty much *anything*” Again, misconception on your part. “Often heavy restrictions imposed on Muslim” Again, giving concession to the Islam faith yet disrespecting Christianity. “To try and hoard even more food for yourself and deny it to others” Once again, you have missed the point entirely. “Shame on you!” Really? For standing up for what I believe in I should be ashamed? For wanting the choice of what I put into my body I should be ashamed? For wanting to eat and drink clean without prescribing to others religion/beliefs and wanting to satisfy my own beliefs, I should be ashamed? Are you serious????? You stand up for Islam but you wag your finger at the Christian that stands up for his/her beliefs. God. I certainly hope you will let him embrace you. Peace.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 13:38

      @Shane "So, you endorse their religion, but Christianity is just making a fuss over nothing? Christians must just accept it and deal with it? I think you are being extremely one sided in this case. You have disdain for all religions but your true colours are starting to show through in this comment." I am not sure whether it is your intellectual dishonesty or your inability to comprehend the written word that astounds me more. I have pointed out time and again that I DO NOT endorse ANY religion (and whatever little respect I might have had for Christianity is eroded away by people like you). "If I were Jewish, would you make the same statement or actually respect that the food be kosher? Must I starve because I want my food prepared in a certain way?" If people want Kosher food, let them have it certified and have the sticker slapped on. I do not care. It does not affect me. "Yet, my religion/beliefs get disrespected at every turn. I truly believe in my religion yet I have to concede to theirs? " Where is your belief affected by a Halal sticker. Please provide scripture that says you are not allowed to eat food deemed Halal. Muslims, Jews and other religions have scripture they need to follow with regards to dietry requirements. Chrsitians do not. So, your point is moot and if you do not get that, I am sad to say that you are indeed a fool or a troll.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 13:38

      @Shane "Hypocrite. I have to concede to the conditions of food being prepared in accordance to Islam law and I am not allowed to say anything about it?" So, how is Christian food supposed to be prepared? Where in the Bible are Christians told how to prepare their food and where does it say they may not eat food prepared by the customs of other religions. "What’s next? I have to sit back, smile and let sharia law into this country? Like they are trying to do in the UK? If I went to an Islam country, I would have to abide by their rules, why then do I still have to abide by their rules in my own country?" I am not condoning Sharia Law. I am saying don't make a fuss about a sticker for which you have no biblical (but apparently lots of personal issues) reasons to care. But if it will make you feel any better, I think Sharia Law is a crime against humanity. There, feel better now?

      Tim - 2012-04-04 13:48

      @Shane "So why then, are there no Christian stamps on food stuffs?" If you are a Christian, perhaps you should look that up in your Bible. Oh, wait, despite being an atheist, I have read the bible back to front several times and have not found any mention that food for Christians (not Old Testament Jews) be prepared in any specific way...or that they have to mark food fit for Christian consupmtion. Logic would dictate, or in case those are words are too big for you to understand, it is common sense that this is the reason that there are no Christian stamps on food stuff. Answer me this: By what criteria would you have food certified and stamped as "Christian food"? "Do you not think that offends Christians at all? Is that what it is going to take to get that respect? Rioting?" I am not saying that it is not offending Christians, but as pointed out time and again (even by people of your OWN faith) there is no reason to be offended. Go ahead, riot if you like. Show us how much you are like Jesus. "The issue is that I want the CHOICE as I do not practice Islam. I would like to buy non halaal meat, milk whatever as according to my religion."

      Tim - 2012-04-04 13:48

      @Shane At worst, you need to shop around a bit, but you still have choice. And if not, well, there is a business opportunity right there - go and set up a Christian Certified food outlet. I bet you not many Christians will bother buying from you. It seems you keep hammering on choice, again, not because your religion demands it, but because you have argued yourself into a corner with no scripture-based justification for your outrage and now you are stuck with making it a personal choice issue.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 13:53

      @Shane "I also find it funny that when I stand up for my beliefs I meet people like you who judge me on the bible and state that if I don’t act accordingly to exactly what is written in the bible then you find it “funny”." Hmm...so what exactly is the criteria by which Christians should be judged? If not the Bible...where do they take their guidance from and what exactly do they aspire to then? How can you be a Christian and NOT follow the Bible? Can you please clear that up because if you cannot, you are again just arguing *personal* dietry choice rather than *religious* persecution which are two different things. You have to choose one or the other, it cannot be both *unless* your religion ALSO prescribes specific dietry adherence. Logic. Try it some time.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 14:34

      @Shane "1.2 Jesus was not god: Correct – SON of God." I am certain a huge number of Christians will disagree with your assertion here (are you a Jehova's Witness perhaps?) John 10:30 seems to disagree with your statement. "Really? Slavery again?" Again, I am not sure as to whether I should be amused or distrubed by your lack of understanding. The issue is NOT slavery per se, but the contradictions in the Bible. Let's put the slavery aside then and try a different example. The Ten Commandments say Thou shalt not kill. By your own admission, Jesus (whether he was God, was *a* God or a representative of God) teaches the opposite. So again, the issue here is not slavery or killing or rape or the sin itself, but the fact that the God of the Bible (and/or those speaking on his behalf, i.e. Jesus) seem to be at odds with each other. So not, not SLAVERY (or murder, or rape or blasphemy or anything else) AGAIN. I am waiting to have the contradictios in the Bible cleared up so that I can understand the religion you base your outrage on about a ticker placed on food.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 14:39

      @Shane "I view the bible as a guideline and a history. We are constantly improving as a people/species in our understanding." So, are you saying that the truth in the Bible is not universal but subject to change as we evolve as a species. Remember, some of the "understanding" does not require more than understanding what "Thou shalt not kill" means. That would imply that the God who dictated it does not have an absolute moral standard but rather one that changes over time. That would make it decidedly non-divine. If this is not what you are saying, please clarify how you reconcile the Biblical contradictions in a clear, succinct way. AGAIN, this is not about slavery or murder or any transgression (in case you misunderstand or willfully try to twist my words). This is about Biblical contradictions and how you account for them. Thanks

      Tim - 2012-04-04 14:56

      @Shane "For wanting to eat and drink clean without prescribing to others religion/beliefs and wanting to satisfy my own beliefs" Can you please explain *exactly* how (justified by your religion) Halal food is not clean for Christian consuption. Can you please back that up with the relevant scriptures? Also, can you please tell me what food and certification process/criteria would satisfy your belief system (again, please back up with scripture). I am currently unaware of ANY food that has been certified specifically as "Christian only" or "Fit for Christian consumption". Have you EVER complained about this before or is it simply now that another religion can also eat what you eat that you want to jump on your soap box. Please, explain in Biblical context with supporting scripture what your objection is to Halal food or otherwise, please admit that your outrage has nothing to do with your beliefs but are really just a personal issue.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 15:02

      @Shane I find the need to have anything declared Halal, Kosher or otherwise fit for use in any religion (not only Christianity) absurd, but since you are the one making the noise about this, the burden of proof is on you. Prove that your religion REQUIRES the Halal sign be absent from food products. If Muslims were making making a noise about people wearing Christian slogans on T-shirts in public or demanding that Marie biscuits may only be eaten by Muslims, I would call them as moronic as I call this issue. But in this case they are not the ones making fools of themselves, you are. This article does not say Muslims *demanded* that hot cross buns be certified Halal (which they were anyway, they just did not carry the mark to endorse it). *Woolies* decided to add the certification stamp so they can sell them to a wider audience and to just show that the process they have been using all along does in fact satisfy Halal requirement. Coherence. Logic. Comprehension. They can be your friends if you'd let them.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 15:24

      @Shane And, since you, as a supposed Christian, seem to quote conspicuously little scripture to back up your position, perhaps you want to go and familiarise yourself with Mark 7 (in case you did not know, it is in the New Testament...the second book in fact). Then, please come back and explain your position based on this text, citing scripture to support your position (assuming you are still willing to claim religios persecution instead of personal outrage).

      Tim - 2012-04-04 15:40

      @Shane "The Ten Commandments say Thou shalt not kill. By your own admission, Jesus (whether he was God, was *a* God or a representative of God) teaches the opposite." was a typo that should read "The Ten Commandments say 'Thou shalt not kill', yet the very same God who commanded it commands killing. Then, by your own admission, Jesus (whether he was God, was *a* God or a representative of God) teaches the opposite again to the actions of the God he represents."

      Tim - 2012-04-04 16:31

      @Shane "“You *can* eat pretty much *anything*” Again, misconception on your part." You keep saying it but *please back it up with sripture*. If this is what you believe as a *Christian*, then you need to provide a scripure-based reason for why you believe this. Otherwise, please admit that you are speaking not from religious point of view but purely personal outrage that has nothing to do with Christian beliefs you hold. Then we can let this argument go. I will concede misconeption on my part if you can cite the scripture that proves your argument. "“Often heavy restrictions imposed on Muslim” Again, giving concession to the Islam faith yet disrespecting Christianity." This is why I find it hard to respect your opinion - you are willfully stupid and keep twisting words. This is not giving concession to Islam. This is stating a fact pertaining to their religion. PLEASE GIVE PROOF FROM YOUR BIBLE THAT YOUR FAITH REQUIRES SIMILAR DIETRY OBSERVATIONS. Jeebus H Catfish, dude.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 16:33

      @Shane "This stamp is everywhere on ALL food stuffs at all supermarkets." Yet, you only complain about it now. If this is a predominantly Christian country then where the hell are all the Christians who can make a fortune selling Christian certified Food. If this is a Christian country then why don't you just make your own shops and sell food that you deem worthy to eat. Oh...because faith is easy...but *doing* something is actually hard so it is more convenient to sit idly and bitch. If this was a REAL threat to the biggest religion on the planet, they'd have done something about this long ago. Oh...but then Christians cannot even agree on what they can and cannot eat. Conundrum - how do you know *your* Christian view is correct and not the view of some of the other Christians here who are as incredulous about this as I am?

      Tim - 2012-04-04 16:34

      @Shane I will make this easy on you because the length of this debate is getting silly. Just answer the following questions and then we can leave it there: 1. Are you a Christian? 2. If so, am I correct to assume the Bible is given to you from God to guide your faith and help direct your actions? 3. If 2 is true (which I assume it is because else I would not really understand how you can call yourself a Christian) then can you please specify where in your Bible there are prescribed specific dietry requirements for Christians and where it is specified that they may not consume food prepared by or to the customs of other religions (or bear makrs of said religions). See Mark 7, especially. 4. If 1 is true and 2 is true, then what the hell is your problem with a Halal sticker unless you can give a satisfactory answer to 3? I stand by my position that your rant has nothing to do with being a Christian or holding Christian beliefs. It is really just an anti-Islam rant where you confuse the issue of personal secular choice with religious persecution.

      Tim - 2012-04-04 16:41

      @Shane Oh, and just in case you think I am siding with the Muslims (or any other faith) in spite of Christianity, this: I think dietry prescriptions in the Bible (for Jews) as well as dietry prescriptions for Muslims are silly. In fact, any religion that cannot provide proof of its credibility deserves to be viewed with at least scepticsm and suspension of any acknowledgement of credibility until it can prove its claims - as should its rituals and traditions. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Satanists...they are really equally silly when it comes to these kinds of things. I shall now go eat some Halal (and Kosher) Hot Cross Buns made by a Christian woman in a Hindu bakery and pray to The Ceiling Cat before I consume them (and I will be sure to leave some crumbs for The Basement Cat...just in case). I would offer some to the Flying Spaghetti Monster too, but my specific brand of atheism does not allow the mixing of cinnamon with bolognaise. Goddamnit...

      Shane - 2012-04-04 22:20

      @Tim: “I have pointed out time and again that I DO NOT endorse ANY religion” Yet, you keep preaching that Muslims have certain dietary requirements as their religion dictates but I need to back up my dietary requirements with scripture? The only person who cannot comprehend is you. It states quite clearly in the scripture that you are not allowed to eat bottom feeders, pork and so on in the bible as per the old testament and this would be in the Jewish and Muslim writings. “If people want Kosher food, let them have it certified and have the sticker slapped on” There is kosher food in the stores, I have stated that it has a separate freezer for the meat and shelves. Who is not comprehending now? “Please provide scripture that says you are not allowed to eat food deemed Halal.” So when it suits you, you want to ask for scripture references? Are you serious? You seem to be quoting a lot of texts out of the bible, why don’t you show me that it doesn’t state it. (treat your body as your temple) “I am sad to say that you are indeed a fool or a troll. “ So again, saying I am not allowed to stand up for what I believe in? You don’t endorse any religion huh? So far, not believing you as you seem to be fighting pretty hard for the Islam. “So, how is Christian food supposed to be prepared?” You like repeating yourself don’t you? How did Jesus do it? (That is actually rhetorical)

      Shane - 2012-04-04 22:21

      @Tim: continued: “A sticker for which you have no biblical (but apparently lots of personal issues)” Do you actually understand what the stamp represents? Do you understand you are paying extra for that stamp? Do you understand that the extra money you pay is going to the muslim council? Don’t endorse any religion, are you sure? “There, feel better now?” No, I have this guy that is telling me that my religion and rights are not important and I must bend over and concede to another religion. “Those are words are too big for you to understand” Are you now getting desperate that you have to resort to insulting? “What criteria would you have food certified and stamped as "Christian food” For one, I would slaughter the animal for its meat humanly. Have you ever seen a muslim slaughter? I would also have a priest pray over the animal and bless it. “Show us how much you are like Jesus” Typical atheist response. As I said, judging me according to the bible. So what I read from this is, I must just accept this and let it happen? “Because you have argued yourself into a corner with no scripture-based justification for your outrage” Scripture based, already dealt with. I have not argued myself into a corner, that is your perspective. I have no outrage and IT IS ABOUT CHOICE! Why can I not have this choice? Are you now saying that I must just accept it.. oh wait, of course you are.

      Shane - 2012-04-04 22:22

      @Tim: continued: “What are the criteria by which Christians should be judged?” By what criteria should atheists be judged? By what criteria would you, an atheist be expected to be judged? The bible is the guideline, reference point. In fact, you keep saying that it is my personal issue yet you seem to have a vendetta against Christians in general. Seems hypocritical to me. “*personal* dietry choice rather” So are you now saying I don’t have a right to personal dietary choice? Because that is what I am reading here. “Logic. Try it some time” Understanding, try to get some. “The Ten Commandments say Thou shalt not kill. By your own admission, Jesus (whether he was God, was *a* God or a representative of God) teaches the opposite” What???? Where does Jesus say go out and kill??????? “Seem to be at odds with each other.” Only if you don’t understand it. “saying that the truth in the Bible is not universal but subject to change as we evolve as a species” Would you agree, that judasim, Islam and Christianity all share the old testament? If so, which is the more progressive of the religions and which are the most regressive? As we evolve, our understanding grows and we see more as to what is being said in the bible, torah and quran with regards to the old testament.

      Shane - 2012-04-04 22:24

      @Tim: continued: - If you do not understand the bible and feel there are too many contradictions, then please feel free to go the nearest church and speak with a minister. I am trying to answer your questions as best I can, but more clarity can be provided by a priest. “That would imply that the God who dictated it does not have an absolute moral standard” I am certain of one thing, the Ten Commandments give a clear guideline to live a good life, god wrote it in stone and then Moses put it in stone. So to me, that is pretty clear. These have never changed. “*exactly* how (justified by your religion) Halal food is not clean for” The food is blessed by Islam. The question I ask is how is food not prepared in halaal format detrimental to a muslim? What will happen should he/she eat non halaal food? What is the real issue then if I, by your accounts, can eat halaal food? Why the hypocrisy?

      Shane - 2012-04-04 22:25

      @Tim: - continued: “Have you EVER complained about this before or is it simply now that another religion can also eat what you eat that you want to jump on your soap box.” I have actually, on several occasions, even talking to the food regional manager of pick n pay asking why all the meat has a halaal stamp on it. He said that I could get pork, no halaal stamp. The reason I am continuing is because you keep asking questions and I am trying to answer you. I have no problem with being able to break bread with other religions however; the point as you seem to keep avoiding is that the food is prepared for by halaal, for halaal with the exclusion of other faiths. Why can you not understand this? Is it because you want to argue and validate your own beliefs? “Prove that your religion REQUIRES the Halal sign be absent from food products” When did I say it must be absent? What I said was, I want the choice to buy non halaal foods. Sheesh, talk about someone who can’t comprehend. “making fools of themselves, you are.” So standing up for what I believe in is making me a fool? Yep, you said it, you don’t endorse any religions……*eyes skyward* “Does not say Muslims *demanded* that hot cross buns be certified Halal” So I suppose that little certificate on the wall is nothing but filler? They may not actively demand it but they expect it. You seem to respect that it should be on the food, why can you not respect my point of view.

      Shane - 2012-04-04 22:27

      @Tim - continued: “Coherence. Logic. Comprehension. They can be your friends if you'd let them.” Understanding, respect can also be your friends if you let them. “(in case you did not know, it is in the New Testament...the second book in fact).” Viciousness, must be an atheist trait. “please come back and explain your position based on this text,” Which part? “Otherwise, please admit that you are speaking not from religious point of view but purely personal” So you have already decided from what point I am speaking? I speak from my own beliefs and it is not personal. “This is why I find it hard to respect your opinion - you are willfully stupid and keep twisting words” How am I twisting your words? I am quoting what you said. The only stupid person here is you, you fail to see that it is my belief, you want scripture references yet you just accept that Islam law must be met and you don’t seem to want proof of that? Uh Oh, am I twisting your words again?..... “PLEASE GIVE PROOF FROM YOUR BIBLE THAT YOUR FAITH REQUIRES SIMILAR DIETRY OBSERVATIONS.” Leviticus 11:32–35 http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040402.htm http://www.butlersguild.com/index.php?subject=103 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090731004809AAw4HTq Just in case that wasn’t enough. You like repeating yourself, dont you?

      Shane - 2012-04-04 22:28

      @Tim: continued: - “1. Are you a Christian? Yes 2. If so, am I correct to assume the Bible is given to you from God to guide your faith and help direct your actions? It is the word of God. 3. If 2 is true (which I assume it is because else I would not really understand how you can call yourself a Christian) then can you please specify where in your Bible there are prescribed specific dietry requirements for Christians and where it is specified that they may not consume food prepared by or to the customs of other religions (or bear makrs of said religions). See Mark 7, especially. Already answered in previous comment. 4. If 1 is true and 2 is true, then what the hell is your problem with a Halal sticker unless you can give a satisfactory answer to 3? Done. Answer given. “I stand by my position that your rant has nothing to do with being a Christian or holding Christian beliefs. It is really just an anti-Islam rant where you confuse the issue of personal secular choice with religious persecution.” Because I stand up for my beliefs and would like the choice now I am persecuting another religion? Tell me, if I went to an arab country where Islam is the major religion and I formed a Christian council and stated that food there needed to have the cross stamped onto it and they said that they wouldnt do it, who would be persecuting who?????? Stop letting your hatred of Christianity get in the way of perspective.

      Shane - 2012-04-04 22:30

      @Tim: continued: - “I shall now go eat some Halal (and Kosher) Hot Cross Buns made by a Christian woman in a Hindu bakery and pray to The Ceiling Cat before I consume them (and I will be sure to leave some crumbs for The Basement Cat...just in case).” OK, that just gave me good laugh.

      Tim - 2012-04-05 00:43

      @Shane So let me get this straight: Christian means "follower of Christ" yes? And by Christ we mean Jesus, right? So, you say you are a Christian but unlike the majority of Christians you do not believe that Jesus is also God but only the Son of God and not divine (despite what Jesus says in John 10:30 where he proclaims that he and the father are one; hence my previously unanswered question as to whether you are in fact a Jehova's Witness because that is also their doctrine.). Furthermore, you are a Christian who does not believe in Jesus' proclamation in Mark 7 that nothing that you allow into your body defiles you - it is only what comes out (presumably words and deeds). Here, you would rather cite Old Testament scripture for dietry requirement, specifically Leviticus 11, which basically outlines a lot of law for Kosher food. You can look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_foods So, you do not have a problem with Kosher food which is part of the Jewish religion and not your Christian religion - you use this as the basis for your own faith's dietry requirement. This is not "Christian" dietry requirement. They are Jewish and specifically Kosher requirement.

      Tim - 2012-04-05 00:44

      @Shane You see, this is why I despise religions. They can never argue honestly - they basically have sacred texts full of arbitrary nonsense and contradictions and this allows anyone to claim "faith in that religion" while they at the same time really are free to pick and choose what aspects of said religion they wish to actually stick to. When we talked about slavery, you were quick to jump to what the New Testament and specifically Jesus said. There you are happy to be the Jesus Christian and disregard what the Old Testament God had to say about slavery. When we talk about dietry requirement, then you are all of a sudden happy to ignore Jesus and the New Testament, but rather you will then quickly side with the Old Testament God and his Kosher requirements.

      Tim - 2012-04-05 00:44

      @Shane My mistake is in being naive enough to expect that a follower of religion would actually have some integrity and intellectual honesty. I expect you are probably insulting quite a few other people who would call themselves Christian. Seems Christians cannot even agree on who they are or what doctrines they should follow. And that deserves respect how exactly?

      Tim - 2012-04-05 00:54

      @Shane Quoting Loffie.Leroux who also contributes to this thread from his assertion that he is in fact a Christian: "PilgrimX you are right nothing. The hot cross bun is all about exploitation. About the commercialisation of a Feast of GOD the Father of Jesus Christ the LAMB which was slain on passover but has risen. The passover feast is what "easter" is all about for the true disciples of Jesus Christ. The date each year comes from the Jewish calender which says it is on the 14th day after the start of the month. Clearly the "world system" has hijacked this Christian feast for their own purposes. For sure not a pagan feast hijacked by Christianity. Yes religious Christians tend to miss what the Gospel is all about, a relationship with Jesus, not a set of rules to please Him to score brownie points. It is what happened on this "weekend" that makes the Christian faith different from all other faiths." So, maybe you Christians should really fight it out amongst youselves first and clarify what exactly being a Christian means, who and what Jesus is, whether it is your faith, your deeds or both that are important and maybe then come back and present your case. Are you now going to go and accuse other Christians too of disrespecting your faith? Jesus help us.

      Shane - 2012-04-05 23:16

      @Tim: “You do not believe that Jesus is also God but only the Son of God” I think that is the emphasis isn’t it? What I believe. How I wish to honor God. As stated he sent his only son. So why wouldn’t he be the son of God? “Question as to whether you are in fact a Jehovah’s Witness” Well, it took me over 2 hours to try and answer all your questions. If I missed one, it wasn’t on purpose. Do you forgive me? To answer that question, does it matter if I am Jehovah’s Witness, catholic, Anglican, Methodist? “Jesus' proclamation in Mark 7 that nothing that you allow into your body defiles you” Again, open to interpretation. What you read and what I read are 2 different things. For example, Mark 7 for me reads that I don’t have to eat halaal. I can in fact, eat non halaal. This is my preference. “You would rather cite Old Testament scripture for dietary requirement” You asked me for scripture, I gave it to. Apparently it isn’t good enough. “So, you do not have a problem with kosher food which is part of the Jewish religion and not your Christian religion” Was Jesus Jewish? If I had the choice between halaal and kosher, I would take kosher. As for my faith, that is my faith and will follow it as I see I should. This is my right, or are you saying I have no rights as a Christian or an individual?

      Shane - 2012-04-05 23:18

      @Tim - continued: I am not trying to argue with you nor am I trying to be dishonest with you. I am trying to answer your questions as best I can, but do you see how this has digressed into you and me talking about Christianity and its contradictions? Every faith has contradictions, it is unfortunate. Islam for example says that the women should be looked after and honored. Very noble. But in the next breath, Muslims on TV are talking about how to beat their wives. See the contradiction? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8g8S6F3do Do I want to pick and choose? Not really. I don’t want to be false to my faith but I do have to use, as you said, logic and rationality. For example, we discussed slavery and homosexuality and as you stated both are supported in the bible and I pointed out to you that it is also supported in the Tanakh and Quran. Do we now, advocate slavery and go against homosexuality? No. That is across the board in all religions (well, most) being discussed. So therefore, we are all in that context, picking and choosing. The Old Testament and New Testament are still one in the bible. What I mean by that is that they are part and parcel, Yin and Yang if you will. You cannot have one without the other. You have used parts of the bible as well to express points that you are trying to emphasize so we are doing the same thing really.

      Shane - 2012-04-05 23:20

      @Tim - continued: I don’t think you are being naïve, you are asking some very valid questions and I wish I had the answers for you, however, as I previously stated a priest is probably the best person to speak to as he/she would have a deeper insight and understanding. I am sorry you think I don’t have any integrity or intellectual honesty but this is not my intention. My intention was never to insult, but if those few Christians do feel that way I know there are triple the number who feel the same as I do. Like I have said before, I have no issue with a Muslim wishing to eat halaal food, the issue I have is: 1. I don’t have the choice to buy non halaal 2. I support a faith that isn’t mine by paying a % to their council 3. I don’t know where that money is being used by said council and what for 4. When I stand up for my rights as a Christian and an individual, then I get told that, for lack of better words, I have no rights and I must shut up. See the contradiction? Yes, you are right; Christians can’t agree hence the segmentation. That is to our detriment unfortunately. That is why you have Catholic, Methodist, Jehovah’s Witness, Anglican, NGK, Dutch reform et. al. Their interpretation and perspective of the scripture is different and therefore the many branches.

      Shane - 2012-04-05 23:22

      @Tim - continued: Each deserves respect for their opinion, perspective and point of view. You can decide if you wish to accept that perspective or not. If not, being courteous doesn’t cost anything. You have stated you are atheist. I am not saying you are wrong and I am not bible bashing (hopefully). I respect your point of view and that is your choice. I agree with Loffie. That is exactly what it is to me to. Now, you need to go back to my first post where I stated quite clearly: “I personally don’t think it is about the HCB. I think it is more about the fact that Halaal stickers are being put on every food stuff in the store.” Do you see the point I am trying to make? Being exactly what a Christian means is different to each individual. I covered this earlier in the comment. Yes, the guidelines are there, but we are human unfortunately. We strive to be like Jesus and if we fall, we get up and try again to be better. Atheists however, are just cynical people who will do whatever it takes to discredit a Christian or at best “convert” him/her to their way of thinking. Whether you like it or not, you have a religion, atheism. You don’t believe in god/creator and you try to get people to leave Christianity. Funny though, atheists only question Christianity, they never question Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism ect…, I wonder why they is?

      Shane - 2012-04-05 23:23

      @Tim - continued: Other Christians don’t force me to buy something I don’t want. I don’t really know how else to clarify my point to you. “Jesus help us” I stand at the door and knock, if you hear my voice and open the door, I shall come in. Rev 3:20

  • uzair.parker - 2012-03-29 12:03

    Last year it was a Muslim issue with the 'cross' on the bun - to which I responded that perhaps a crescent moon and star on the buns would have been preferable - hence, little tali-buns. This year, its the Christians who are all hot and cross . Ah well, never a dull moment. What fun buns. Great article Georgina

      stuart.steedman - 2012-03-29 13:16

      Tali-ban ... ahahahahahaha (stops to breath) hahahahahahahah

      Morgaen - 2012-03-29 13:19

      The Talibuns would bomb as a product.

      bounca363 - 2012-03-29 14:03

      I am a muslim and have no problem eating hot x buns. who ever had the idea that hot x buns witha cross was offensive to muslims ned their heads read.

      skootzie - 2012-04-01 13:52

      I loved that, "tali-buns" .. hahahaha

  • David - 2012-03-29 12:07

    Georgina I dare you to post a article that shows Muslims in a bad light the way you have about Christians.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 12:39

      Why? Would that make you feel better? Tit for tat...

      jody.beggs - 2012-03-29 12:49

      Muslims aren't being hypocritical turds ! This time ...

  • Dan - 2012-03-29 12:20

    If Woolworths pays for the Halaal cerification/sticker, then the customer pays. Why should I pay for something that I don't want? Woolworths should give the consumer a choice if they want to be seen as being impartial.

      Dewald - 2012-03-29 12:25

      Right on the spot! An it has nothing to do with your religion or the lack thereof. Why should you be paying for someone else's religion? BUT - you are going to pay for that mark anyway - or do you know a retailer that will take the accreditation fees from their profits?

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 12:44

      That is not what this is all about - the outrage is specifically a religious one...

      Tim - 2012-03-29 13:38

      If you do not want to pay for the bun because you feel the cost of the sticker is passed on to you, then fine. It is easily solved. Don't buy it. Do you feel the same about food with vegan or allergy information stickers even if you are not Vegan or allergic to any ingredients? Furthermoree, religious people are the last who can complain about paying for something that they do not want. Across the world, religious organizatoins are given tremendous tax breaks, meaning even people who do not follow that religion has some of their tax money going towards funding said religion. If you pay tax, you benefit one or more religions and they are not necessarily yours. So sod off...

      bounca363 - 2012-03-29 14:05

      you have 2 choices: Either have woolworths stock 2 tyoes of products halaal and not. (which I seriously doutb they will do) or go by somewhere else, please remeber the whole world is not certified halaal. At the end of the day its a business catering for their target market. Get over yourselves.

      Dan - 2012-03-30 12:25

      I think we all know by now what the Halaal sticker means! I am sure people are familiar with what happened in Cape town.

  • Smaugthewitch - 2012-03-29 12:27

    Yawn. People are just too narrow minded. Nice article georgina.

  • yolande.ndawonde - 2012-03-29 12:29

    Georgina I get your simple understanding and all those that agree with your thoughts. Listen , as much as we have Hot Cross buns associated with Easter / Turkey associated with Xmas dinners etc I am merely only referring to the holidays that are Christian holidays. What I am trying to say is, Christians have things they symbolise with a certain part of their Christianity this in this case is the CROSS BUN , thats why it has a Cross , which stands for the cross when jesus died on the cross for us to save us from all sin. Now when Woolies goes and plasters a big fat Halaal sign on something which is for my religion a very important and significant thing , excuse my Religious right for finding offense in that. So yes Georgina, I do find offense as I respect muslims and their holidays when they go through Ramadaan etc, I dont offer my ex boyfriend (whom happnes to be a Muslim) any food nor will I give him anything that is not halaal esp during his religious holidays that he obeserves. But now when its my holiday I will expect them to also respect my food and yes even if it means they cant eat it cause it doesnt have their Halaal sticker. As long as what is still symbolic to my religion remains in tact then thank you , I will eat whatever and for your info read your bible there are foods that Christians are not allowed to eat such as Pork but with many Christians that have simply let things slide and back tracked we do as we please continously not fighting for our religion

      Dan - 2012-03-29 12:41

      Spot on, Yolande!

      mbossenger - 2012-03-29 12:43

      If you worship a god who may or may not let you into heaven depending on whether you eat pork or not, then your god is a very strange entity who apparently bases his decisions about you eternal fate on rather arbitary criteria.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 12:43

      yolande, the cross on the bun actually is a pagan tradition and NOT a Christian tradition... Hot Cross Buns were traditionally served during the Lenten Season, especially on Good Friday. Their origins, however, like the Easter holiday, are mixed with pagan traditions. To the ancient Aztecs and Incas, buns were considered the sacred food of the gods, while the Egyptians and Saxons offered them as sacrifices to their goddesses. The cross represented the four quarters of the moon to certain ancient cultures, while others believed it was a sign that held supernatural power to prevent sickness. To the Romans, the cross represented the horns of a sacred ox. The word "bun" is derived from the ancient word "boun," used to describe this revered animal. The Christian church adopted Hot Cross Buns during their early missionary efforts to pagan cultures. They re-interpreted the "cross" of icing which adorns the bun to signify the cross on which Jesus sacrificed His life.

      thurlo.cicero - 2012-03-29 12:51

      "Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.'" - Mark 7:15 ;)

      Tim - 2012-03-29 13:14

      "many Christians that have simply let things slide and back tracked we do as we please continously not fighting for our religion" Are Christians allowed to have slaves?

      Shane - 2012-03-29 21:37

      @mbossenger - "If you worship a god who may or may not let you into heaven depending on whether you eat pork or not, then your god is a very strange entity who apparently bases his decisions about you eternal fate on rather arbitary criteria." Can i conclude that you are aiming this comment at all religious people, that would be muslim and jewish as well?

      mbossenger - 2012-03-30 10:34

      It was aimed at yolande, but any religious person can feel free to be as offended by it as they deem fit.

      Shane - 2012-03-30 16:01

      @mbossenger - well i am sure that the % of religious people outway the non religious and yes that offence would go across all lines, not just to christians but muslims and jews as well. Also, i think the comment you made shows ignorance on your part with regards to what christianity/islam/judaism is about.

  • sheldon.francois - 2012-03-29 12:43

    The New Testament states a few things quite clearly:   If I see eating ‘pork’ to be a sin before the Lord .. and then I eat ‘pork’ then it is a sin to me. The Lord states that food etc … and abstention from it does not make us closer to him. The Lord states do not bother with the speck in someone’s eye when you have a board in your own. The Lord also states that we must not argue religion.   Therefore, if fellow Christians wish to abstain from buying Woolworths hot cross buns … then that is their choice. The fact that they send such a dramatic email to Woolworths is not the manner I believe the Lord would want this addressed. I would definitely have used a more gentler approach (as required by our Lord) in expressing our views. Perhaps, if they requested WW to provide HCBuns that are not muslim blessed …

  • Tim - 2012-03-29 12:45

    Religion is just another form of Apartheid.

      jpstrauss - 2012-03-29 12:59

      Hectic, bru. Pass the weed.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 13:54

      Totally

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 15:38

      Your ignorance on the facts and effects of marijuana is pathetic.

  • Neil - 2012-03-29 12:47

    LOL, this has to be one of the funniest posts in a long time. We should label everything Halal, then their would be more food in the supermarkets........HA HA.

  • sheldon.francois - 2012-03-29 12:47

    The New Testament states a few things quite clearly:   If I see eating ‘pork’ to be a sin before the Lord .. and then I eat ‘pork’ then it is a sin to me. The Lord states that food etc … and abstention from it does not make us closer to him. The Lord states do not bother with the speck in someone’s eye when you have a board in your own. The Lord also states that we must not argue religion.   Therefore, if fellow Christians wish to abstain from buying Woolworths hot cross buns … then that is their choice. The fact that they send such a dramatic email to Woolworths is not the manner I believe the Lord would want this addressed. I would definitely have used a more gentler approach (as required by our Lord) in expressing our views. Perhaps, if they requested WW to provide HCBuns that are not muslim blessed …

  • wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 12:55

    Awesome article. It pisses me off when certain religious people think they have the right to get uptight and force their religious views on those who differ spiritually or done believe at all. They are such hypocrites, as they love to pick and choose which parts of the bible to adhere to (support the view that homosexuality is a sin, but not the rule that states a woman must be a virgin before marriage, or else she gets stoned). Well done on a well written article. Hopefully there are more people in this country/planet that think like you, and not like the right-wing conservative religious bigots.

      Morgaen - 2012-03-29 13:17

      Oh Wesley darling, you really should join up with meme. It seems like all that buggery has made you a bitter and twisted individual.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 15:46

      Oh the contrary, i am told i am a sweet and lovely individual :-) Who the hell is meme? I am my own person with my own views, thinking with logic, making decisions based on facts. Unlike you who lives in fantasy land, governed my bronze-age fairy tales.

  • Issy - 2012-03-29 12:57

    dear muslim brothers,sisters and all non muslim companions I think that there needs to be some clarification on what the Halaal certification actually stands for.halaal basically means permissible for muslims to partake in. what makes a food item halaal? as long as it DOES NOT CONTAIN intoxicating substances (alcohol)/pork/pork by-products/meat from other non halaal animals/ animal by-products from other non halaal animals(such as gelatine). other non halaal animals are those animals which are carnivorous or have not been slaughtered as per prescribed islamic law. if you do a google search on these islamic methods you will find that slaughtering methods per islamic law has been found to result in much healthier meat for human consumption and is less painful to animals Dear christian friends,in the case of the HCB which has halaal certification all it is doing is informing muslim consumers that none of the above items are found present in this food item.how is this different to informing vegans or allergy sufferers about the ingredients of a particular product? a final word to my fellow muslim brothers & sisters,regardless of how woolies certifies HCB's we all know that the cross is the symbol of christianity.the HCB is branded by this cross and in light of this we should abstain from it. im sure our bellies can make do with the similar products sold by woolies (ie.spiced buns without a cross). lets not engage in mudslinging but rather educate each other :)

      thurlo.cicero - 2012-03-29 13:07

      Let us also be reminded, Dear brothers and sisters - that the halaal certification is a sign for muslims as an indicator - something that comes at a price for its service, added to the value of the product. And therefore the general non-muslim consumer should be offered a choice between ritually slaughtered meat and non-ritually slaughtered meat, and halaal and non-halaal products so that those who are offered this service pay their respective levies to the organization which governs it. Those not affected should not be forced to carry the cost in conjunction with those affected by it. That`s how things should actually work.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 14:15

      Issy, here is your first lesson. the cross does not represent Christianity.. Wow, is everyone religiously ignorant??

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 14:16

      @Issy, let me rephrase, the cross represents Christianity to Christians ONLY - to the rest of us, it's just that sweet sticky bit in the middle..

      nhlakazondi - 2012-03-29 14:22

      Thanks for the info Issy, I think we do need to educate each other. I am Christian but am not completely sure of the symbolism. I do think that our reactions to such an issue should be educated and informed though; and not all Christian beliefs and ordinances are completely the same. I won't take your every word as truth, but this comment was much more informative and interesting.

      Issy - 2012-03-29 14:42

      pointblank if you would care to take a look at my comment again, you will see that the last section of my discussion is addressed to "MY FELLOW MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS" meaning people who subscribe to islam just like i do as they would understand the point that i was trying to make. it was not addressed to people of the christian faith. even still, in the interest of promoting free and fair debate between religions (WITHOUT NASTINESS AND NAMECALLING) i will clarify my position. Muslims do not tend to see christians in the various sects that you belong to just as christians do not fully understand sunni shia etc. we all know each others faith by who do you pray to and where is your place of worship. for muslims it is allah and we pray at a mosque and for christians it is jesus christ (pbuh) whom you pray to at church. my point is this...regardless of what sect of christianity you follow (catholic etc.) your churches are adorned with the symbol of the cross, which is representative of the cross on which jesus christ (pbuh) was crucified. and this is what i meant when i said symbol of christianity. this is relevant to muslims as we do not believe that christ (pbuh) is god or the son of god and neither was he crucified. we believe in him as a messenger of god. therefore by supporting the consumption of a product which is branded with a cross we muslims are actively promoting an idea which goes against our religion.this is why the last paragraph is addressed to muslims.

      Issy - 2012-03-29 14:53

      nhlakazondi i do respect your position as not every information source on the internet is correct. the topic of faith and belief is quite a controversial one, and yes you are correct, we all need to be informed before we jump into a comment section and make sweeping statements about anothers faith. this is precisely the reason why i have limited my comment to that which i know to be correct. I urge you to find out more about islam from a reliable source. not from newsrooms and tabloids where islam is portrayed to be a backward oppressive religion whose sole aim is to destroy all other religions. if you or anyone else is interested in learning more about the true version of islam then i would gladly endeavour to inform you as best as i can. my facebook username is " issy mots " if you would like to get hold of me :)

  • Graham - 2012-03-29 13:04

    It's all about Jesus, not Hot cross buns, Jesus died for you on the cross and the cross on the bun means nothing. It is just a money making scheme. Taste good though

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-29 14:17

      No its not a money making thing, its been around longer then Christianity... and yes it does taste good :)

  • logancyoung - 2012-03-29 13:05

    What's really sad is the fact that this article even exists. It's a sticker people! Why should it matter if it's there or not if your beliefs don't prohibit you from eating non-halaal food anyway?

  • Paul - 2012-03-29 13:10

    ok, just want to state that not all christians are making a fuss about this. I am a christian, and just want to state that the last thing people should be thinking about during easter is a freakin sticky bun. Come on people, really making a fuss about bullsh&t. I am a christian, and seriously to state that all christians "have this sad misconception that they are superior" (@pointblank) is the same as saying all muslims are terrorists. Stop judging christians (and in the same breath stop judging people in general irrespective of religion,race etc) based on the few who complained, seriously the majority of real christians celebrate easter for the sacrifice jesus made, not because he gave exclusive rights over hot cross buns to christians... damn !

  • antonyadelaar - 2012-03-29 13:28

    From a Christian: what do you know, more pea-brained, elitist Christians making the rest of us look bad. It's a symbol, people. Like the elements used in our communion services? Nobody owns them. You separatist bunch need your own damn stickers so that we know to avoid you.

  • Cyril - 2012-03-29 13:40

    I am a a child of God and I think we missed the point: the cross equals love.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 16:23

      + = ? ?

      mbossenger - 2012-03-29 16:45

      X = <3

  • MagdaKus - 2012-03-29 13:52

    Sometimes a bun is just a bun for Pete's sake! St Pete's in this case ;-)

  • Marina - 2012-03-29 14:12

    Now, Now everyone. Stop the bun fight.

      nhlakazondi - 2012-03-29 14:22

      HAHAHA!!

  • warren.e.michael - 2012-03-29 14:53

    To all you so called christians. If the hot cross bun is religious then I suppose that the easter bunny is too? Anyway buns bunnies and eggs are not what this time is about. It is to remember jesus who died for us. If you have forgotten that his sacrifice is the only symbol of this "holiday" then I have lost all hope in the intelligence of christian ppl.

  • qhuggett - 2012-03-29 14:53

    What a frikken joke really. Its a bun! Its not the Jesus Christ returned! And religious people wonder why non religious people think they stupid! This is another example of why having no religion and specifically no religion in public is best for everyone!! Shortly there will be Muslim people up in arms because woolworths has now removed the halal sticker. Then the jews will be demanding a kosher sticker. Then suddenly we have in protests. Protest turn ugly, and become violent clashes. Somebodies child dies and then its war. Sound crazy but that exactly how all these religious wars start! Keep you religion to yourself! Keep you offence to yourself! Everybody gets offended. Oh I am offend by what he said, what she said, blah blah So what nothing happens to you! Life goes on! Live with it! for emphasis go here http://www.viddler.com/v/18c26af3

  • Robin - 2012-03-29 14:59

    This is not about a sticker on a "god damn bun" heathen, it is about Christians freedom of expression. The cross of THE symbol of our religion. Its not about any stickers, ingredients or any other trivial thing such as that! Jesus Christ is who we identify with during our celebrations, and putting an Islamic symbol on a christian pastry is like slapping us in the face! It is almost saying our religion is trivial and the Muslims own it. AND I COME BARING A SOLUTION TO ALL OF THIS, because I am not here to debate religious antics, history has taught us that this leads to wars! So solution : woolworths make a hot cross bun on it with the crescent moon on it for the Muslims? Am I the only one who can see this? and POINT BLANK..... you are just wrong, so I hope no one even takes you seriously.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-03-29 16:27

      It is a PAGAN tradition, not xtian, so what are you on about?

      mbossenger - 2012-03-29 16:43

      "and putting an Islamic symbol on a christian pastry" - comedy gold right there. "With this er, pastry, I annoint thee"

  • wayne.jubber - 2012-03-29 15:29

    So many heathens so little time

  • Wim - 2012-03-29 16:01

    Agree 100% with your main point.But some of your by-the-way comments (sticky finders) are offensive and equates poor column writing, as they only indicate bitterness and bias and are hardly necessary to make the point.

      Tim - 2012-03-29 16:27

      Irony is a valid commentary tool and does have reasonable place in journalistic endeavours. It was perfectly appropriate given the context and the point the author was trying to make. This is an article meant to highlight the rediculous things religious people bicker about. It is not a technical whitepaper on the intricacies of the BIFF8 file format :)

  • brainbowgold - 2012-03-29 16:52

    John Robbie put it nicely this morning: "If there is a God then God is the one God of all of us. If there isn't then it doesn't matter." In my opinion, religion takes your eye off the ball. If you want to communicate with God simply do so yourself. You don't need to go through all these other characters, institutions and be bound by books full of laws. Simple. And if you want to eat something, simply be grateful for it and enjoy it!

      Tim - 2012-03-29 17:01

      And if whatever god(s) want(s) to be offended by a sticker on his/her/its/their buns, then he/she/it/they can bloody well come down from the clouds and say so in person instead of delegating his message to a bunch of people who can hardly articulate a coherent sentence or agree on the actual message.

      Tim - 2012-03-29 17:02

      I think that if there is a Christian God, he is more offended by his offended flock than by what they claim to be offended about.

  • Dave - 2012-03-29 17:18

    woolies stuck the stickers on to try and make a few quick bucks

      jpstrauss - 2012-03-29 17:50

      I'm thinking the same thing. Wasn't it around the same time last year that they pulled that Christian magazine stunt?

      skootzie - 2012-04-01 14:12

      Woolies .. hating on Christians since 1879.

  • andre.swart - 2012-03-29 17:51

    This is amazing!!! Of all the nonsense I have seen in my life this takes the cake (or bun to be more precise) It is a bunwhich has not been prepared with pork or alcohol and at some point a dude in a dress stood there and sang a song and called it blessed. If the principal problem is that you are giving money to muslims then maybe you should stop putting petrol in your cars, because remember kids "Petrol comes from Allah land!!!" So please to all the protesters, find a real cause. It's days like this I am glad to live in a buddhist country where easter and christmas and ramadan and any other commercial holiday doesn't exist!

  • Helen - 2012-03-29 18:39

    Christians have nothing to fear from that Halaal sign. One can't believe a word of what's written on labels.

      Tim - 2012-03-29 18:44

      Label on Church Door: Building may contain nuts. QFT.

  • mariska.lloyd - 2012-03-29 19:40

    Easter - Festival celebrating the Pagan goddess Eostre. Easter eggs and egg painting - symbolises new life, celebrated on the Spring equinox (Pagan), Spring Equinox - time of fertility, new start of life, new growth and newborn animals(Pagan). Hot Cross Buns - Pagan.... I do not see the fuss over a halaal sticker! Everything about easter, even the name, was stolen from Paganism. Do your research. Perhaps we should start putting 'pagan' stickers on some items Christians find so dear, like Christmans trees!

      Tim - 2012-03-29 21:59

      If Christians knew how much of their religion basically just plagiarises from older religions, they would probably... ...still not care. Nothing is harder to stop believing than that which you -want- to believe despite all evidence against it.

      mariska.lloyd - 2012-03-29 23:14

      I agree Tim.

      loffie.leroux - 2012-03-30 01:09

      Well for me as a disciple of Jesus Christ I celebrate passover next weekend (the Jews also but with different view point). For the pagans it will be Easter or what ever festival. This whole debate is way of the point. The religious Christians made their point what it was about for them. So let everyone celebrated what they want and stop being nasty/horrible to each other it just makes you all look foolish.

  • Navzay - 2012-03-29 22:18

    For the people claiming that they don't want to have to pay for the sticker, this is Woolworths choice. While it may be seen as W is respecting muslims, it is also a strategy to increase revenue. The sticker should immediately increase demand for a product as the customer base has increased (muslims will now buy the product). Theoretically, this means that W can make the same or even more profit without having to increase the cost due to the sticker (in theory, they could even lower the price). If they chose to charge us more anyway, that would be due to greed and not as a direct result of the sticker. As someone else also pointed out, "how is this different to informing vegans or allergy sufferers about the ingredients of a particular product?"

  • Marc - 2012-03-29 23:09

    I like the raisins

  • Justin - 2012-03-30 00:26

    What do they want next? Halaal Christmas cake. A cinnamon and raisin bun is just that. A hot-cross bun is an Easter symbol. Muslims should respect our religious symbol as they demand respect for their culture and religion.I'm sure that no one has ever stopped a Muslim person from eating a hot-cross bun. It is their choice not to eat food that is not Halaal , and we respect that. As for one comments suggesting that Christians "have a misconception of being superior"- It is the arrogance of the Muslims to want to Interfere with a Christian religious symbol is the issue here. Everyone has the right to follow their own beliefs , but who has the right to interfere with someone else's belief? DON"T MAKE HOT_CROSS BUNS HALAAL!!!!!!!!!!

      skootzie - 2012-04-01 14:20

      Hot Cross Buns were traditionally served during the Lenten Season, especially on Good Friday. Their origins, however, like the Easter holiday, are mixed with pagan traditions. To the ancient Aztecs and Incas, buns were considered the sacred food of the gods, while the Egyptians and Saxons offered them as sacrifices to their goddesses. The cross represented the four quarters of the moon to certain ancient cultures, while others believed it was a sign that held supernatural power to prevent sickness. To the Romans, the cross represented the horns of a sacred ox. The word "bun" is derived from the ancient word "boun," used to describe this revered animal. The Christian church adopted Hot Cross Buns during their early missionary efforts to pagan cultures. They re-interpreted the "cross" of icing which adorns the bun to signify the cross on which Jesus sacrificed His life. Tell me again how the HCBun has anything to do with Christianity? Eostre or Ostara (Northumbrian Old English: Eostre; West Saxon Old English: Eastre; Old High German: *Ôstara) is a goddess in Germanic paganism whose Germanic month (Northumbrian: Eosturmonaþ; West Saxon: Eastermonaþ; Old High German: Ôstarmânoth) has given her name to the festival of Easter. Tell me again how Easter is a Christian holiday?

  • PlanetZog - 2012-03-30 02:37

    ANOTHER XTIAN BUN FIGHT 29th March, 2012 These, feeble Xtian sheeple are bleating again... Now, the issue is over 'Hot Cross Buns'. The major issue this time, is the fact, that the Islamic Halaal sign appears on the Woolworths packaging of their 'Hot Cross Buns'. The Arabic word 'Halaal' means 'permissable' or 'permitted'. To read more click on the hyperlink below... http://m.news24.com/news24/SouthAfrica/News/Woolies-facing-wrath-over-hot-cross-buns-20120329 Firstly, what amazes me is the ignorance of these Xtian sheeple. Many of whom have never even read their Bibles. In fact, the Catholic Church discourages their flock from reading the Holy Bible. Secondly, like most other tenets of the Xtian faith, which have also, been stolen from other older more ancient religions, the 'Hot Cross Bun' originated in great antiquity with the Pagans. In ancient antiquity, thousands of years before the Xtian religion was even conceived, or plagarised, this offering of a 'Hot Cross Bun' to the gods in the Arkite Temples was known as 'Boun'. * Note: the similarity between the word 'Bun' and the word 'Boun'. This ritual, was in time, adopted by the Egyptians and the Greeks, and other ancient civilisations, long before it was Xtianised by the Catholic and Coptic Churches. For more information click on the hyperlink below... http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/osc/osc09.htm So, my dear Xtian sheeple, before you get your knickers and under-rods in a knot, read your Bibles and study history in an effort to learn the truth. The real Truth and not the 'truth' according to what your religious masters want you to believe.

  • Bruce - 2012-03-30 08:21

    arguing with people who do not believe what you believe in is like talking economics with a baby...smile and wave... Respect eachothers beliefs and move on... if you want to shout about some sticker...do it , see ho far it gets you.. but as a Chritian... i dont care about a sticker ... and i dont buy my buns at woolies either...

  • Andre - 2012-03-30 08:44

    Keep your comments to hot cross buns.

  • Andre - 2012-03-30 08:45

    Hey, Super Rugby weekend! Mandela is alive! The sun is shining!

  • Sharmilen - 2012-03-30 08:50

    For gods sake.....bake your own HOT CROSS BUNS then. Woolworths can do what they like and I hope they do the same with all their Xmas stock as well. They are a business and will always try to attract all types of customers. When Christians walk into fast food outlets do they ask, "is your food Halaal?" No they don't, they simply chomp down the food and I have seen this as I have Christian Friends who on many occasions have eaten at Halaal food outlets. Stop propagating Christianity, Islam and other religions. If you don't want to spend your hard earned money on Halaal Certified Hot X Buns then bake your own or get it from other retailers!!!

  • Nom - 2012-03-30 08:54

    only people who call themselves Christians and dont read their bibles will take offense to things like this...only people who call themselves Christians but have no true love for Christ but rather a love for religion will take offense to this...The Jesus hImself is recorded in Mark 7 to say that nothing that is outside of man and goes into him can defile him, but it is the sins in your heart that defiles you...Read your bibles

  • Sibongile - 2012-03-30 09:05

    This is an attack from the devil, can't you all see that? He is trying to divert our attention from the importance of Easter. Remember who and whose you are my brothers and sisters in the Lord. This world didn't love Jesus, it won't love us either. Remember how Jesus died for us so that we should be free from the law and the curse. Let's not be like the others who believe in an eye for an eye. We have been ordered to love our enemies. Who cares what Woolworths does? Jesus is still Lord. And remember, if it's not in the bible it lie. Jesus cared more about people being saved and less about traditions.

      Vasha - 2012-03-30 09:18

      101% Correct. Who cares about the Woolworths Hot Cross Buns, There are many other bakeries you can get your Non Halaal buns from. Really now !!!

      skootzie - 2012-04-01 14:24

      So your devil attacks your belief system in the form of Hot Cross Buns with Halaal stickers? ... interesting, tell me more.

  • Carlen - 2012-03-30 09:24

    Why is it that Christian religious days such as Christmas and Easter became so commercialised? Christmas with Santa Claus is probably just a big a brand as Coca Cola! You get the whole Christmas decorations theme over December even in countries such as China and Korea. And NOW after allowing all of THAT! we want to complain over Woolworth's halaal sticker on hot cross buns????

      mbossenger - 2012-03-30 10:36

      You pagan pagan fesitvals like christmas and easter?