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Lindani Gumede

South Africa

News24 User

Death penalty not the answer

by Lindani Gumede

2009-11-27 09:00

Dear Editor,

I vehemently oppose the death penalty. Killing a person is a barbaric act (far worse than killing a bull barehanded). A state that institutionalises and legalises killing cannot, in my view, claim to be a constitutional democracy.

The social ills plaguing us today (unemployment, poverty, homelessness, hunger, illiteracy, crime, etc.) are a direct result of historical separate development and exclusion of the majority from the economy. The death penalty will only address the symptoms and not the root cause.

Former Chief Justice Pius Langa addressed this issue several times. He quoted a number of references (research) to prove that the death penalty does not reduce crime, as much as banning alcohol advertising does not reduce sales. This is well researched.

The only long term and sustainable solution is education, and broad based economic development and empowerment. Killing people is short-sighted and unsustainable. If everyone was educated and employed (or self employed), the crime rate would be very minimal. Any thinking person will agree with that.

Lindani Gumede

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Comments have been closed for this article.

nigel 11/27/2009 9:09:27 AM

The death penalty will solve problems, like prison overcrowding, cost to taxpayer to feed & accommodate criminals that have raped or murdered, & besides SA is not a normal society, currently there is not deterrent to committing crime in SA, the death penalty & hard labor may just have an effect, why not try is out for a limited period of 3 years, & then we will have facts to consider. It can't be worse than shoot to kill policy that the ANC are eager to force on society.

CTheB 11/27/2009 9:12:45 AM

You have to remember that people care more about the appearance that something is being done than they do about whether any real effect is being had. For instance, people don't care that the war on drugs isn't working and that drugs continue to be a scourge. They attribute it's failure to it not being intense enough, or they agree that more and more freedoms should be taken away because that must be why it's not working. Most never consider that the approach may be fundamentally flawed.

guy 11/27/2009 9:13:25 AM

Lindani my dear, we don't have that many lives available to spare a full education cycle!!!! We need to do something NOW! For it might be tonight that some uneducated, unemployed, unsatisfied person breaks into your home to steal the dvd player and rapes your daughter while he is there... for he has no fear nor accountability for his actions. Re-instate the death penalty and let a few murderers become an example to the rest thinking about performing such barbaric acts.

lloyd macklin 11/27/2009 9:14:15 AM

Lindani, you are 100% correct when you say that the death penalty is not a deterrent. Only fear of being caught is an effective deterrent. However, we cannot allow the depravity and violence to continue. Until such time as the justice system is effective we will have calls for the death penalty. It does serve one purpose in that it removes such people permanently.

Shakanyana 11/27/2009 9:14:27 AM

Spot on bro.death penalty is short cut to solve a problem and it is irreversible.Most of the case it will be abused or use by the ruling party to kill those opposing them.further poor justice system in these country will lead to innocent people been killed or otherwise

Cynical 11/27/2009 9:15:43 AM

This topic, like topics such as Juliaaas & Caster, has been debated to the nth degree on this forum. Next article please!

Ray 11/27/2009 9:16:25 AM

It would help if we had a justice system that was not plagued by corruption, and politicians that cared about the people instead of lining their pockets. Bu t unfortunatly we dont, and you cant compare it to killing a bull bare handed, it is more like taking another persons life for a stupid cell phone, or raping children why should that person still be allowed to be exist?

Goodness Gracious 11/27/2009 9:17:37 AM

Although I agree on some levels with what you are saying, it cannot be ignored that there are people who are barbarically killing and maiming others, and society has no place for such animals. So I would be happy to see them put to death. But if ever the penalty does return, it has to be incredibly seriously considered from all angles. We cannot put a thief to death, for instance, but a murderer... any day!!

Reasoning of a child 11/27/2009 9:17:57 AM

Umm?? So if death penalty is wrong and education will reduce criminals, then all prisons and police force should close down use the money to have build more schools and libraries. That way crime will be reduced even more. Any NON thinking person will agree with that.

xp 11/27/2009 9:21:48 AM

The US has the death penalty in some states. And so many people want to get into this "unconstitutional democracy". Let them burn in hell for their crimes! If we could get rid of murderers and rapists in this country our economy would bloom and become productive and with fewer state dependants it will be amazing!

ITpro 11/27/2009 9:22:07 AM

In scociety you HAVE to have a system or method of deterrent...

DirkM 11/27/2009 9:26:12 AM

How is a state that institutionalises the death penalty worse that the murders and rapes commited in the first place? The issue is not neccessarily one of reducing crime, but rather one punishment for a crime - that fits a crime. A person the disregards the rights of another and consequently rapes or murders does not deserve ANY rights him/herself, nor any mercy or leniency. I disagree that the death penalty does not reduce crime. If the death penalty (and also the swift and merciless implementation thereof) is not a deterrent, then those that are not deterred deserve to be eliminated.

Viva the death penalty, viva!

SimonP@Lindani 11/27/2009 9:28:50 AM

"(unemployment, poverty, homelessness, hunger, illiteracy, crime, etc.) are a direct result of historical separate development and exclusion of the majority" Yer well thought out BLAME APARTHEID.
Has it crossed your mind that these issues maybe a direct result of having a useless government for 15 years?

Eles 11/27/2009 9:33:01 AM

I agree in the sense that I don't have confidence in government and justice system to not abuse it if it were implemented. We do desperately need an overhaul of police, courts and prisons there should be no corruption whatsoever and people should be made to do hard labour. People should be scared of going to prison and right now they really are not!

Jan 11/27/2009 9:34:24 AM

Lindani, are you suggesting that the majority of serious criminal activity (rape, murder,etc.) is due to poverty? Absolute nonsense! Murder, rape and such atrocities are the product of a distorted and sick society. "Education, broad based economic development and empowerment" will definitely not address the problem.

String 'em high 11/27/2009 9:34:43 AM

Why must I support a murderer for a lifetime in jail with my tax money. What choice did the person have that he killed? Yes if everybody had a conscience or morals there would have been no need, but these people needs something to fear, why do you suppose crime is so low in the Muslim countries? You lose a head or a hand if you don't stick to the law! Why don't our "democratic" country give us a referendum, then we will see how many of us prefer the death penalty....

Too many human rights for people that take human rights away from others...you need a deterrent, because criminals fear nothing and gets away with almost anything. Be realistic we are not living in Switzerland here

Juan @ author 11/27/2009 9:36:53 AM

So if some thug breaks into your house and points a gun at you and forces you to watch while your wife is being raped by his buddies. You don't think that he deserves to die? That makes you just as sick as him!

HLF 11/27/2009 9:37:28 AM

"I vehemently oppose the death penalty. Killing a person is a barbaric act". And tell me what is the difference in the murderer killing the innocent victim? What is not "barbaric" about that? Why should a murderer have the right to live unlike his victim? Just like Donovan Moodley - regarless of the fact that he "didn't pre-meditate" the murder of his victim - he killed her - end of story - what gives him the right to live? BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY!!!!!!!

Gatvol 11/27/2009 9:39:04 AM

In Botswana the death penalty is working wonders on their crime stats. If a person takes a life, that person does not deserve to live. Bring back the death penalty.

Jimmy 11/27/2009 9:40:38 AM

Theres no place for killers in our country. Reading about people being killed everyday generates more feelings of hatred and racism. We did not have this crime explosion and senseless killings up to a few years ago. To cleanup this country we have to start by deporting all illegal immigrants. They take South African jobs from criminals who are willing to work but do not have the opportunity. They kill , maim and terrorize our farmers, resulting in farming systematically being stopped. This results in an increase of products being imported and costs for basic foods rocketing. It’s a vicious circle and our government is doing little to stop it.

common sense 11/27/2009 9:41:15 AM

You are seriously misguided in your thinking. How can you blame apartheid for people being murderers, rapists, child molesters and drug traffickers? Morales are something you are taught by your parents and community. Get over yourself the time has come to stop blaming apartheid and "racism" for everything that is wrong in the world.

The death penalty would in fact help solve all the social ills you mention. Unemployment levels would drop if all violent criminals where put to death as the amount of jobs would remain the same but the population would drop.
Poverty could be improved as less money would need to be wasted on overcrowded jails and could therefore be spent on job creation.

Homelessness would be easier to fix with the smaller population to house.

Hunger would also be easier to solve as there would be less mouths to feed.

Having more money available due to a drop in the amount needed to be spent on keeping the population safe, should allow more to be spent on thing like education which would help with illiteracy

And less criminals means less crime.

so without doing an in depth study and wasting millions of tax payers hard earned money, common sense tells you that the death penalty would in fact help the country solve many issues.

Xolani 11/27/2009 9:46:49 AM

I'm sorry to say, I didnt even read your article but the fact of the matter is this was discussed the whole week ... can we have another topic please !!!

Anon 11/27/2009 9:48:50 AM

Agree with DirkM 9:26:12 AM. Punish them with DEATH!!!!

Revere 11/27/2009 9:49:19 AM

Not having a death penalty IS the root cause. Criminals know they will get away, so they commit the crime.

Jakes 11/27/2009 10:03:44 AM

So innocent people can be violently murdered on a daily basis but it is inhumane for these murderers to get the death penalty? Double standards I suppose. If we continiously blaming poverty and the past these murdereres will keep on doing what they doing for now they have an excuse. The goverment already had 15 years to improve things, but it is getting worse. Dont you think it is time for something radical to happen to try and stop these violence and murders??

Thinker 11/27/2009 10:05:02 AM

Like most people, you miss the point that the act of putting to death is not the punishment, as this is done as humanely as possible. The purpose of the death penalty is the permanent removal from society of a individual who cannot be rehabilitated, thus avoiding the burden placed on society for lifelong improsonment. If the killing act was the punishment, we can give the criminal the "bull" treatment. Most rapists rape again, murderers murder again and again and again....

Josh 11/27/2009 10:05:47 AM

Got to love these human rights people. "The murderers have rights too" screw that, if you rape and kill people you have no rights what so ever. You can argue that a few innocent people will die with the death penalty but there are more than 50 known murders in SA daily, that's a lot of innocent people dead. And trust me if you know the consequences are death you will think twice before killing.

ProPenalty 11/27/2009 10:08:31 AM

Of course the death penalty can reduce crime. How many crimes do you see committed in places like the middle east, china and all the other countries that actually enforce these methods strictly. I say bring in the death penalty and then start chopping off the hands of those that steal as well. Watch a criminal fear for himself then. The only reason these guys keep committing crime is because prison is more comfy than a shack; so why not kill, rape and mame, when you get rewarded for it in comparison to your already crummy life.

Greg 11/27/2009 10:10:38 AM

People who murder and rape do not deserve to live, nor live in jails feeding off tax payers money. They are the scum of the earth and should be removed or ejected out into space.

I agree the death penalty treats the symptoms and not the cause but the only way this country is going to treat the cause is via less corruption, and more focused spending of taxpayers money into education, housing and sports facilities for the youth - it all starts with them.

Anon 11/27/2009 10:11:25 AM

Dear Lindani Gumede, I do not agree entirely with your article. I do not know if you have ever lost someone close to you through crime, but I have. I have seen too much death and sadness in this country and let me say that Education and up-bringing are always used as an exuse, for some or other reason! Frankly I am really tired of hearing this. The bottom line is that as humans we are "ALL" taught what is right and wrong, we are not animals, we know that hurting someone or killing someone is wrong, therefore in my book, if one is proven guilty for pre-meditated Murder or Murder as a result of Hi-Jacking etc, that person deserves the lethal injection. I see this as the only solution to a very crime riddled south Africa.It would make a very big deterence and I have no doubt in my mind that this country would be a better place if the Dealth Penalty were to be re-introduced! With the current Government in power it will never be that way.. and that is very unfortunate. Regards

Sinudeity 11/27/2009 10:14:18 AM

Death Penalty vs Shoot to kill?

Loudmouth 11/27/2009 10:18:30 AM

Sorry, as a South African victim of crime (as we ALL wil be) I cannot for one second dismiss the death penalty. In fact the death penalty should apply to child rapists as well. Plato once stated "In a lawless society there is no justice". We are lawless society and we have no justice. We have to draw a line in the sand and say this far and no further.

Sambok 11/27/2009 10:18:43 AM

"Unemployment, poverty, homelessness, hunger, illiteracy, crime, etc" - These can be used as an excuse to steal; not rape, torture and murder the victim.

What you mentioned in your article are symptoms. The cause is easy to identify. It is purely the nature of the beast.

GT @ Author 11/27/2009 10:19:12 AM

AND ANOTHER THING

One poster correctly pointed out this week that South Africa has a very unique situation. It's one of the few countries in the world, where our out of control crime, is perpetuated by criminals who no longer fear the law, and have NO REGARD for human life.

Crime is everywhere, but the violent nature of our crimes are horrific. The DEATH PENALTY is EXACTLY the solution to our very unique problem.

V 11/27/2009 10:20:43 AM

Would the author have a different tone if any of his family or friends were murdered, raped, brutally beaten and tortured? There is no easy solution - absolutely. There have been many studies proven that its not the best way forward - accepted. But looking at the current situation it will take a long, long time before enough infrastructure development is in place to educate and change the culture that has befallen our beloved country. There does not seem like there will ever be enough money to get this problem correct along with all our other social/economic challenges judging by the way our finances have been mismanaged throughout the years.

pete 11/27/2009 10:22:20 AM

Is it not a death penalty when a criminal decides to end a life? To say that the DP is barbaric is a bit emotive, especially as its original objective was to put a value on life.

I certainly think that some recidivistic criminals would be better off dead, but I have shifted against the DP, because of a long history of abuses - kings, leaders, governments, the inquisition and so many others used it to achieve their own ends, not for a righteous cause. It is because people have such barbaric tendencies that we have shifted away from those practices in order to forge a more civilised society.

However, the law is supposed to serve society, not the other way round, so if current criminal-justice models are inadequate, the price of crime must go up to make it less attractive to criminals. That said, our society needs social solutions to address the cause of crime. The DP only addresses symptoms.

SnowCone 11/27/2009 10:24:15 AM

The death penalty is not a deterrent.
However it will ensure that murderers are removed from the gene pool and society will not have to support them.

jv 11/27/2009 10:24:19 AM

Prior to reinstating the death penalty, the judicial system of South Africa has to clean up and show that it is not an arm to execute the will of the ruling party. Otherwise, it would become an executioner of a party and not of justice. "Party" shares the same root as "Apartheid." As long as justice is not a substructure of party politics, the death penalty will be a righteous deterrent, and a fitting punishment, as it is in the USA and over 70 other countries.

Poloyatonki@Sinudeity 11/27/2009 10:25:03 AM

What are you trying to say here.…. you haven’t said anything except “Death Penalty vs Shoot to kill”

anna 11/27/2009 10:27:03 AM

And yet "shoot to kill" is a death penalty without trial? I'd much rather have my case processed by three impartial judges than a trigger-happy and untrained policman. But that's just me.

anna 11/27/2009 10:29:14 AM

the death penalty is already back with the 'shoot-to-kill' policy. If I were a criminal I'd rather have my case processed by three impartial judges than a trigger-happy and untrained policeman. But that's just me.

Spiderman 11/27/2009 10:29:39 AM

Please allow me to change your first paragraph:

I vehemently support the death penalty. Killing a person is a barbaric act (far worse than killing a bull barehanded). A state that ignores and supports murder cannot, in my view, claim to be a constitutional democracy.

AMEN!

jv 11/27/2009 10:29:40 AM

If police are allowed to have a "shoot to kill" policy, how IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE are we not allowed to give the highest court in the country, with an authority that HAS TO BE HIGHER than the trigger finger of a cop, the right to punish by death?

Nic the Greek 11/27/2009 10:30:38 AM

You take away my constitutional rights, as per the constitution then the state must find you guilty and take away yours! Pro-death penalty.

SOUTH AFRICAN 11/27/2009 10:31:20 AM

Surely a person who can kill,murder or maim for a worthless cellphone or other gadget cannot be labled as a part of the brotherhood of man. The law says all persons are equal before the law but people who take others lives, by that action, make themselves less than equal in the eyes of humanity and is only sub-human. Every society has a moral and ethics code and when the absolute crime is committed that code is transgressed and such an individual has no place in that society. Many persons accept the bible as a guide on moral issues yet the bible and q'ran are pro-death sentence. We have seen so many times that criminals escape or complete their sentences they return to a live of crime and killing. The death sentence would, in a sense, protect other lifes by eliminating the source. It would be well to remember what we do to a dog that runs amoke killing people.

Adrian M 11/27/2009 10:31:48 AM

Lindani, you contradict yourself. You say "Killing a person is a barbaric act". However, you would rather keep these scum in the gene pool than weed them out. The process of natural selection applies here too. If you are constantly doing everything in your power to make sure that the criminal element is not removed from society then that criminal element will simply breed more criminals. Of course education will help but for most of these hardened offenders, they can never be rehabilitated. How many stories have we hears of criminals being released from jail only to be caught the next day for rape or murder? These animals who are sent to prison for these kinds of crimes and are then released a few years later come out of prison even more hardened criminals with a bigger criminal skill set. Why any THINKING person would want to keep these people in our society is beyond me. Perhaps someone in your family is one of the individuals who would qualify for the death penalty and so you are trying to protect them. Whatever the reason, I think that it is you who are not thinking.

jv @ poloyatonki 11/27/2009 10:34:06 AM

I interpret Sinudeity's "Death Penalty vs Shoot to kill" this way: "Democracy vs Police State."

JV 11/27/2009 10:37:01 AM

No not the death penalty, public execution.

Shane 11/27/2009 10:38:33 AM

I don't care if the death penalty is not a deterrent. I just would like to end the existance of criminals who rape and steal. They have no place in society.

Trev 11/27/2009 10:41:34 AM

Don't just bring back the death penalty also bring in selected punishments from sharia law that would sort the thieves out.

Sane 11/27/2009 10:47:11 AM

A lot of black kids in townships run away from schools and rush for quick cash , alcohol , drugs so they can look cool . The govt. and the parents of these kids never put these kids to order . So how are we going to achieve a 100% educated/employed society if we still ignore our black teenagers' behaviour . I am from a township myself and it is normal for a 15 year old boy to drop out of school with no apparent reason . I do not see us reducng a crime rate unless we introduce death penalty . Let us face it my black brothers , our kids are not taught the principles of discipline and hardwork , hence they behave this way . I am a black man but I dearly admire white kids , they are so disciplined and focused . Lindani Gumede I think you speak like our govt. ministers , you have an unrealistic solution to crime . Simply solution : KILL THE BUSTARDS ....

Wayne G 11/27/2009 10:49:25 AM

If you kill the symptom there is no problem. Therefore the death penalty is a perfect solution. The killer can’t do much from a pine box.

Inferno 11/27/2009 10:51:49 AM

Lindani... You can clearly see the response of your topic. Every response agrees that the death penalty should return, so I ask you, why do you open this can of worms? You should know by now, if you're an avid or proud South African, that the normal day to day South Africans, can't wait until something drastic gets done about those who have complete disregard for the right each induvidual possess to live freely and in harmony. And don't feel bad, once they're gone, you've forgotten about them, and life for those who really try an make a difference and CHOOSE not to kill in order to survive, the cloud of fear that looms over our country will begin to disperse. Just a tought: Have you ever heard any talk about the middle east? If you steal you get your hands chopped off. Have you noticed that nobody ever mentions this as a barbaric act, all you hear is, NOBODY STEALS THERE!!(Theft there is virutally non-existant)

AJ 11/27/2009 10:52:06 AM

Pity we cannot hear the perspective of teh dead victims, that have been killed by someone (especially with previous convictions) - wonder what input they would have. It would make a pleasant change from the living liberals, most of whom have little or no frame of reference.

Annie 11/27/2009 10:52:59 AM

I agree we should have public executions. Show the rest of the country especially the ones in jail what will happen to them.

Teutonic Knight @ author 11/27/2009 10:53:44 AM

"I vehemently oppose the death penalty. Killing a person is a barbaric act" tell that to the criminals that rape, pillage & murder defenseless law-abiding citizens. Stealing by the hungry & unemployed are still understandable but why rape & murder for a cellphone? Lindane there is a deeper rooted problem which is not addressed or mentioned = We have a sick society which needs to be drastically cleansed.

TC 11/27/2009 10:55:09 AM

Whether you have the death penalty or not is irrelavant. Our Police and legal systems are incapable of making arrests and convicting murderers and other criminals. The debate is irrelavant.

Lou 11/27/2009 10:55:29 AM

I'm sorry, Lindani Gumede, but your reasoning is shocking. There is not doubt that socio-economic conditions affect unemployment, poverty, homelessness, hunger, illiteracy, crime, etc, as you pointed out. But murdering, raping and mutilating people is something completely different. No, I do not support the death penalty but being apologetic about violence is absolutly bull. I might as well turn your arguement around and say, yesm killing is a barbaric act and a state that does not do everything in its power to prevent it is as guilty of the crime; or that the level of violent crime is so high that we are, de facto, in a state of war and emergency measures can be used, ala PW Botha in the 80's, to address it turning our constitutional democracy into the police state it had been pre-1994. As for the link between education and crime: the Balkan states have high literacy and high skill levels but the worst organised crime takes place in those countries. Eductation, equity, opportunity are all minimum requirements for a low crime society but you still need people, companies and the state to choose to be law abiding, to live that every day and to condemn those who break the law. I repeat: being apologetic about it will not get us anywhere. Let me throw in another spanner: R5,4 billion unaccounted for in the Gauteng Dept of Health, SAA, ESKOM, Landbank, SABC, Transnet and the list goes on; money wasted that should have gone for education and equity was wasted. The SETAs are not working and the state closed down the Teacher Colleges in 1997. On the one side money wasted and on the other the capacity that is supposed to give us the much needed education and training, to adress the inequities of the past, has been removed by the same state when tells us they are all for equality. Think about that the next time you vote.

Tinus 11/27/2009 10:55:31 AM

Ship all criminals to an isolated island where Mother Nature can take care of them. This way nobody infringes on anyone’s basic human rights, we are simply removing them from society. They might even survive and become Australians...

@Lindani 11/27/2009 11:00:57 AM

Lindani, have you sat at a freinds funeral where hem his wife and child are being buried after beling unnecessarily killed? do you know what thoughts go through your mind? Do you know how you feel to doubt whether this silly Police organisation of SA is even bothering to investigate? That is why people call for the death sentence. Killing a bull with bare hands is nothing - killing criminals with bare hands may be something!

Kaapenaar 11/27/2009 11:02:20 AM

I would like to see the research that proves that the DP does not bring down crime. I don't believe it for a second.

Velaphi 11/27/2009 11:05:44 AM

Who ever wants the death penalty, please immigrate to America!!!!!

Jack 11/27/2009 11:07:40 AM

Same article as yesterday, same view - until the government and the police are able to deal with crime effectively, we need a deterrent.

It is simply unrealistic to think job creation and education is going to change hardened criminals. Just look at the high number of repeat offenders, rehabilitation is not working for these criminals.

As our government likes to try ideas from time to time, lets try the death penalty - I think you may just be surprised at the impact it will have when criminals start seeing their buddies hang.

I'm all for it - dead criminals commit no crime!

Ghwappie 11/27/2009 11:13:22 AM

It's simple. If you disregard another person's right to life, you automatically forfeit your own right to life. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

@Lindani: As much as I respect some of your previous articles, you are missing the boat on this one. Since when does poverty or hunger give you the right to kill someone to steal their stuff? And how does that cause someone to rape a woman? So quit putting the blame on the past - murder and rape is criminal, finish and klaar. Execute the scumbags in public. If they want to behave like animals, kill them like animals. It's not barbaric, it's called JUSTICE.

Martin 11/27/2009 11:16:25 AM

Death Penalty is only realistic solution, Education alone just makes smarter criminals!

@Author 11/27/2009 11:17:53 AM

A thinking person (as you hope yourself to be regarded as) may also see it as follows, our country is a body, which has an illness, and because of neglect, has become a inevitably lethal illness at the current rate. As with any serious disease, one treats the immediate symptoms to avoid death, and then, once that is under control, one treats the cause, which will take time, more time than is available to this dying body.

Yes, social ills are plaguing us, but they are not relevant to your argument as they are NOT direct contributors to the level and ESPECIALLY the violence of crime. Crime is not committed because of an immediate life threatening danger as a result of a shortage of food or shelter, but because of an insatiable thirst for more. This thirst is then quenched by criminal behaviour, often including KILLING, without having to worry about serious punishment.

GT @ @Author 11/27/2009 11:17:53 AM 11/27/2009 11:26:58 AM

THE POINT EXACTLY, AGREE 100 % !!!

Let's kill the disease first, then address some of the social root causes that cause such viruses

Prophet 11/27/2009 11:30:01 AM

Let the nation decide...give us a referendum...to save cost and time do it by cell phone

@author 11/27/2009 11:30:21 AM

The fundamental premise of this article is that human nature is basically good and that the environment makes us bad. This is incorrect. People are born inherently flawed (spiritual death) and hence need to be "born again" (ie. receive new spiritual life from the Creator).

Sinudeity @Poloyatonki 11/27/2009 11:30:53 AM

Well, my point is, we are against the death penalty, but for, shoot to kill. Isnt that the same thing? Except, with the death penalty, at least you have your case heard before a judge. With shoot to kill, your judge a policeman.

YES 11/27/2009 11:33:01 AM

Yes. Bring back the death penality. Criminals commits more and more crime because jails is like 5 star hotels. It is nice going back there and to relesed just to commit the same crime again. Crime will not stop unless the death penality is brought back into our jails systems. It worked wonders in the apartheid era today it is just the apartheid era visa versa.

cj 11/27/2009 11:36:15 AM

I'm sick of the statement "the death penalty is not a deterrent". I am not looking for a deterrent, I'm looking for a punishment and, for me, the death penalty is a fit punishment.

@Author 11/27/2009 11:36:24 AM

Just another idiot that talks about rights of murderers, in my opinion a murderer has no rights.Wonder what whould happen if one of them vissited you.

Chris 11/27/2009 11:36:57 AM

The death penalty is a practical solution to a problem which is not being solved with mental masturbation over ideals of democracy, etc. Yes, it is barbaric but so are the crimes that some of these individuals committ. A life for a life. And executions should be public. Tell me that wouldn't be a detterent.

Willem griesel 11/27/2009 11:36:59 AM

Stop blaming poverty for being a criminal. There are country's in the world who are way deeper in poverty than SA. BUT they have no crime how do you explain that ?Crime does pay in africa

2020 11/27/2009 11:38:54 AM

Maybe we should execute a large amount of criminals as a study to see if the results of the previous studies are valid.

Natasha 11/27/2009 11:39:08 AM

The only barbaric thing about the death sentence is the fate of the victims at the hands of those criminals who should face the death penalty. Lindani you say that we should address the cause and that is exactly what the death sentence will do. The cause at the moment is that the so-called human rights of the criminals are placed above the human-rights of the innocent victims. In fact, that is not only the root cause of murder and rape, but of most crimes in this country. We live in a society where criminals enjoy way too many rights and privileges and the average innocent person on the street have virtually no rights or freedom. These people have absolutely no regard for the rights of their victims or sympathy with the consequences of their actions on both the victims and their families. The time has come for priorities to be set straight. I never had to be "educated" any more than the next person in order to understand that it is barbaric to rape and kill and educating adults in that regard will not sufficiently address the problem. Some people are just naturally barbarians and should be removed from society so that those of us who make a positive contribution can receive something in return.

Death 11/27/2009 11:40:32 AM

Hey, it's not the complete answer, but it will be a definitive step towards the solution.

Citizen 11/27/2009 11:45:49 AM

Bring back the death penality.

Nick 11/27/2009 11:50:16 AM

If you are proven guilty of killing or raping someone, you must be excecuted - end of argument. Why should a killer get to live?

Natasha 11/27/2009 11:54:18 AM

Have we not lost enough at the hands of these criminals? Why must we continue to pay for their accommodation, food, clothing, university degrees and other education, medical expenses, etc - not to mention state appointed legal council. If they don't respect the lives of others, they do not deserve to live and should be removed from society - permanently.

rocco 11/27/2009 11:54:38 AM

an eye for a eye - kill em all!!!!

Carl 11/27/2009 11:59:22 AM

Polio Honkey, do you ever make sense ?
I'm a firm believer in an "eye for an eye" and not this philanthropic BS of not legally executing a convited criminal. In other contries, where there is extreme poverty, they dont necessarily have the violent crime rates like we do here, and they dont blame education.. Look at Sri Lanka..

Spiderman 11/27/2009 12:00:20 PM

Here is a suggestion:

Add the DP question to the voting form during by-elections. If the majority is in favour, implement the DP in that ward. Monitor the statistics of that ward and compare with the post elections crime statistics (and adjacent wards)!

Tara 11/27/2009 12:03:15 PM

For heaven's sake girl, don't blame the crime in this country on racism yet again. Our problems are a direct result of criminals, nothing else. Look outside the country for a change. Every single country in the world has crime. The criminals are underpriviledged and priviledged. They are just criminals. Education does NOT make a person obey the law. At least the death penalty would mean that those people who will never be rehabilitated will never walk the streets and will not be able to corrupt those in prison who are just petty criminals. If we voted on it and the death penalty was brought back, it would be far far more democratic than refusing it because the government says so.

KimPossible 11/27/2009 12:11:55 PM

When an arsonist is on the loose setting destructive fires - do you first try to address the root cause or PUT OUT THE FIRE? I agree that the root causes of crime must be removed - that is a gievn, however if you truly re a thinking person as you imply, you should agree that rape, child abuse and murder cannot be put forward as consequences of poverty and inequalities. One does not need one ounce of education to know that these heinous deeds are WRONG! When you violate anoother person's human rights by committing such acts against them, you lose your right to be treated humanely.

at 11/27/2009 12:14:15 PM

You have no measure to say that the death penalty will or will not solve our country's crime problems. But what you don't have is a deterrent for crimes such as murder , arson,Eskom cable theft ( which is tantamount to treason),rape etc. The law should have a higher gear than just overcrowding prisons . Just for hardcore criminals to be pardoned and let loose to commit similar crimes within days of having been released.

at 11/27/2009 12:14:19 PM

eugene 11/27/2009 12:20:02 PM

When you rape someone, there is part of that person that dies, when you kill someone, they die too. Ever spoke to a rape victim, or a surviving member of a murdered family??? Ever wondered how it would feel to be one of those victims?? The pain they go through for the rest of their lives??? Ever wondered how much fear they live with now after such a heinous crime has been committed against them??? Can you possibly imagine how it must have felt at that moment of being raped or finding your family murdered in your house, maybe even in front of you, what it must have felt like??? Can you possibly imagine the pain, the fear, the disgust, the hate, and all other emotions filling your head after an event like rape or murder???
If you think that’s hard, try to imagine what thoughts go through the mind of the criminal while performing one of these acts. Now ask yourself, is it really worth trying to save this person’s life?? Dont even preach to me about forgiveness, the bible makes it very clear, an eye for an eye.
Besides, the death penalty also creates jobs.

Warren 11/27/2009 12:21:23 PM

South Africa has one of the most modern constitutions in the world but I firmly believe we are not mature enough to have such a constitution. The death penalty is not required in countries where people respect the law and crime is a rare occurrence. Our constitution would (mostly) work in those countries but we are simply not ready for it. Bring back the death penalty and only consider banning it when South Africa is mature enough. The way to bring crime under control is to start working from extremes, death penalty for serious crimes and something as simple as enforcing traffic laws properly brings the concept of being a law abiding citizen to the fore.
Additionally, abortion is legal in South Africa and practiced not only for extreme cases like a woman becoming pregnant from an act of rape, or a foetus with serious medical issues, but also just because you simply don’t want the baby. While I don’t want to shift the argument of whether ANY abortion is justified or not the comparison I want to make is that you can legally end the life of an unborn baby but cannot legally end the life of a convicted criminal. The death penalty for convicted criminals seems much more rational then abortion so surely if we allow abortion the death penalty should be a no brainer.

AC 11/27/2009 12:22:44 PM

Commit the crime. Its unlikely you'll be caught. If caught, pay the bribe, if they dont take the bribe and you are maybe found guilty, blame it on the past, the system or whatever is convenient. Never take responsibilty for being a low life. And that attitude is exactly why things are going they way they are in SA.

A thinking person@author 11/27/2009 1:15:42 PM

I dont agree with you.

marilyn 11/27/2009 2:18:35 PM

Having studied criminolgy, the death penalty will benefit in detering youngsters. The youth learn by example. And for serious and life threatening crimes it is a workable solution. The amount of murderers that walk out of jail and start afresh and never kill again is miniscule. A murderer , rapist and paedophile are not people whom are normal in the head. Do you think you could kill someone without justification? Now do you think you can cut them up into pieces? We are paying alot of money to keep these kind of people alive ...for what?

Lou @ ProPenalty 11/27/2009 2:20:15 PM

If you think that anyone can get a fair trial in any of those places you had mentioned, please go live there. The problem there is that the death penalty is used as a weapon of fear against the whole population. Anyone at the wrong place at the wrong time can be accused, trialed, convicted and executed with no hope in hell of a fair trial. Even if the death penalty is a deterrent you still need the rest of the criminal justice system to work before you can even get there. Advocating the Death Penalty as a solution is short-sighted and gives false hope that things might change. We will waste time and money just to get the DP in place and then still wonder how criminals will be caught and effectively prosecuted. DP is not a solution for these reasons: 1: It actually costs more to put someone through the DP process than to keep them in jail for life; 2: it is not a deterrent; 3: we need a whole criminal justice system to work; 4: You need an 80% majority vote in parliament for a constitutional amendment on the DP; 5: After you've spend all the time to actually draft the legislation, put it through parliament, had it voted in and promulgated you are at least two years down the line and you've not even had one execution or fixed the rest of the system.

There are some bloggers who are honest enough to admit that the DP is about retribution and they do not try and waste everyones time with arguements about its efficiency to reduce crime. If you all would just do a bit of research on the topic then you will find overwhelming evidence that, in a democracy, the DP DOES NOT reduce crime rates. You need a totalitarian government that runs the lives of everyone for a correlation between DP and crime.

So you can all continue wasting your own time hoping for an solution that will make no difference, and which will never materialise, or you can start thinking about how we solve the problem. If you are angered by this situation, my point of view, and the fact that you feel powerless about it, don't waste this energy on something that will not make a difference. We all complain that the government is not doing anything but then we expect the government to do everything. If you want a totalitarian state where the state does run everything, let me know and I'll pack up and go. Until then I will continue being part of my neighbourhood watch, reporting suspicious activities and make sure I am not part of the problem. I wil also continue to advocate for a change in government to one that will take the situation seriously and pull the justice system together, fix the SETAs, train judges to give community service instead of jail time where appropriate (less burden on tax payers, you see), sort out internal corruption that wastes resources, improves police training, and the list goes on. For crying in a bucket: we've had the criminal procedure act for more than a decade and they still do not know when you can shoot or not even if this is clearly defined in the act and the right to kill a suspect when lives are threatened has been in there all along.

padjester 11/27/2009 2:24:04 PM

One method to get to the root of the problem is to eliminate or decompose the symptoms one by one till the root cause is exposed, and thus treated accordingly.

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