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Tienie

South Africa
News24 User

'Knowing right from wrong'

by Tienie
2009-07-10 12:05

Dear Editor,

Re: Hlophe: "Africanise" SA law

I read this absolute rubbish this morning and thought I would open it up for debate.

When growing up, my parents did the best they could to teach me the wrongs from the rights and usually it took one to two decent hidings and I got the point and refrained from doing whatever it was that got me there in the first place.

The reason I mention this, is that although I did not study law, or are even close to being able to know what every law of our country is, I know wrong from right. It has been programmed into me like it has or should've been into everyone reading this letter right now.

Now Mr Hlope mentioned he wants to "Africanise/Transform" our law because people don't understand or know how to interpret it.

His thoughts are that instead of making people scared of the law and going to jail, we should make it so that people obey the law because they feel it's the right thing to do.

Now, isn't that nice. They change the law to suit their own needs and now killing will stop, hi-jackings will stop, robberies will stop, rapes will stop, corruption will stop etc. Because the people who committed these crimes now know and understand that it is wrong. Have you ever heard something so ludicrous in your life?

Coming back to knowing wrong from right. Surely, regardless of which language or which culture our laws are written, if you are old enough to commit any of the above mentioned crimes, you are old enough to know it is wrong and if caught you will be punished.

I say, stricter laws should be applied and if you want to "Africanise" the law, here is my suggestion:

- If you are caught stealing, chop of a finger for each item or case, starting with the thumbs.

- If you are caught raping, chop of what needs to be chopped of so you can't do this again, yip I said it.

- If you murder someone, death penalty must apply, or even a "necklace" if you know what I mean.

These are obviously a couple of examples but you get this gist of it. Why would we want to change something that is working but the people in charge are just failing time and time again to apply it?

Tienie

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Big Bad Bob 7/10/2009 12:11:02 PM
Cool your jets! Judge Hlophe hasn't said anything about changing fundamental definitions of right and wrong. He's talking about the language used in courts and contracts (and I bet you don't know what all that latin means either) and the languages spoken in court. When he refers to "Roman Dutch Law" that doesn't amount simply to a definition of what is right or wrong. England, for example, does not use Roman Dutch Law. This kind of system determines legal process and how judgements are reached.

MM 7/10/2009 12:12:24 PM
Haha, yes i also read the article with utter amazement.. Know, because law has been africanised and trasnformed all crime will stop because people have a better understanding... Pleeeeze, the rapsits will still rape, murders will still happen etc etc... I agree with your penalties, although you and i know that will never ever happen. How about a points system. Any person get say ten points, and each crime has got a points value. murder 10, rape 9 etc. get caught points go off, do the time required for crime.Once points are up, imediate life.

Big Bad Bob 7/10/2009 12:14:10 PM
Another thing to remember is that "law" and "courts" don't just apply to criminal cases. They apply to civil cases, to petty offences like parking tickets, to rental and HP contracts etc etc.

Marc 7/10/2009 12:15:14 PM
Could not have said it better !!!!!

Poloyatonki 7/10/2009 12:19:44 PM
You don’t even know what he meant by "Africanise" but you are busy spewing crap… we are living in Africa not Europe.. idiot.. we need to do it African way.

T 7/10/2009 12:24:54 PM
If you believe in your article and can stand your argument, why dont you give us your full name and surname? You are not confident in yourself....stand up broer!

cuba 7/10/2009 12:28:08 PM
i agree that the idea of 'africanising' the law is just silly, he has to define exactly what is african law in the first place, and prove that it is feasible.

but he did go on to speak about how in courts, there are only certain languages allowed, and having an interpreter present just isn't good enough. now that is something i agree with, after all, if i only speak mandarin, it would be better for the case to proceed using mandarin as this would give me a fair chance of defending myself, where as if the judge and lawyers only speak in portuguese, the case isn't exactly skewed in my favor is it?

and that is my 2c

SimonP 7/10/2009 12:28:29 PM
Hlophe is another ANC out of touch joker. Can you imagine how much his initiative would cost. The country is in recession and all these muppets can come up with is how to spend more money. One day, probably when it is too late, they will wake up.

I 7/10/2009 12:30:00 PM
I also read that article with utter amazement. Questions that came to mind - what is considered "lawful" or "right" in Africa then? We have laws (doen't matter they they are a mixture of English and Dutch) that try and protect the innocent and victims of crime. How will they "Africanise" it? Will it be ok to rape and murder?

@Big bad bob: Go read the article again. They don't only want to take away the Latin, but also change the laws to Africanise it. Latin has always been the Law's language right over the world. It doesn't matter if you understand it. Should the "medical language" also be taken away? Each field has its own language.

@ MM: A points system will never work - that is like giving permission to rape, rob and murder.

Jas 7/10/2009 12:30:01 PM
It's a classic case of treat the symptoms and not the cause. By Africanise what he actually means is make the law suit African culture, which cannot work. The law sees no colour or race. It is equally applicable to all people. Justice is blind remember? If you want African folk to understand the law a little better Hlophe, then educate them. You don't change the law to suit a particular race.

Mbuyiseli 7/10/2009 12:30:20 PM
Lets start by him influencing other Judges on Zuma’ case. How African was that? When I see that fat flab piece of bacon posing as a steak next will tell him to go bullshit other morons not us. Wait for him to get a nice cushy job since his “BRA” Mr Zuma is now the head of state.

Mr Roman Dutch 7/10/2009 12:33:00 PM
@ BigBadNob, actaully the sub-text of his comments are racist and use the agenda of eurocentrcism as a bad thing and un-african thing and hence its lack of reality in South Africa...its dismissive and belligerent and if have had dealings with this guy before and his mate Ngobeni you will agree unless you are of course africanist which these means racist...

morena 7/10/2009 12:34:41 PM
hey Tienie don't be so arrogant OK, whats wrong in your eyes might right in someone's culture, religion, eyes ect and your mother did the best she could to raise you up accordingly but that doesn't mean she the 100% job welldone

Fred Basset 7/10/2009 12:37:49 PM
Hlope says "...people need law that embodies their own culture and their values". Well, according to our current leadership, fraud, corruption & rape do not go against the culture or values. So perhaps these silly little no-no's will be legalized. Somalia, here we come...

Ivan 7/10/2009 12:38:08 PM
Just imagine how many amputees we would have in Parliament/government, provincial and the municipalities and aligned structures (SAPS & Correctional Services), if we chopped off a hand of the person who stole. Hell JZ and TM would probably be just a trunk in a wheelchairs with a head on the shoulders.

You cant tell me that a robber who shoots an 18 month old doesn't know it wrong, just because he cant understand latin, I mean WTF, go figure.
Bring back the death penalty please.

morena 7/10/2009 12:38:53 PM
@teinie well crime is not what Mr hlophe was only talking about, how about african customs that the courts refuse to recognize, be open minded "bro" maybe you will see things different not as you see them now (black man making demands) and while at it grown

IandI 7/10/2009 12:40:05 PM
You did not understand what Judge Hlophe was saying.You obvioulsy have never needed an intepretor as you understand the English and Latin phrases used in court.An uneducated person would not been able to relate his story properly to a court as interpretors often don't capture the gist of the statement when they translate it from Zulu/Xhosa/Sotho etc into English. If you are South African(of European origin through your ancestors), you should have learnt a black language by now , then you would know what the Judge meant. U need to understand that a clear distinction has to be made when someone has been been killed,e.g. between "murder,2nd degree murder, manslaughter and homicide". I challege you to say these in a black language then u will see how it can be lost in translation in court by interpretors? Or do you expect us to all know your European language(English)like you do even though you may not know a local black language.Or are u still "European" in Africa???

Fred Basset 7/10/2009 12:42:10 PM
Reminds me of the time when Bob Mugabe started to align his countries laws with their culture and values. That was about the same time that using "Zanu PF" or "Mugabe" in vain would earn you a quick bullet in the head courtesy of the military vets, who were no doubt acting within the terms and conditions of the "new legal system".

Xolani 7/10/2009 12:43:29 PM
@Tienie - WOW !!! You are can really make something out of nothing, They are merely trying to change Latin words that are used in the interpretation of laws to make it simpler for an ordinary citizen, that can only mean a good thing ... but then again - nothing will be changed before we get a chance whine about it ???? (Its slowly becoming the South African White culture) Keep It Up and be sure to pass it on to your kids and grandkids !!!!

Shimane Mbuyisa to Big Bad Bod 7/10/2009 12:44:17 PM
Amongst other things he said "South Africa's common law was a fusion of English and Dutch law, which had been imposed at the expense of indigenous law."

This Zuma backer studied in Cambridge if I'm not mistaken. And if that is correct, he knows nothing about "African Customary" law which is applied in courts or tribunals where litigants can successfully argue that they live their lives according to the tenets of that type of law (African Customary Law). This law is used by so-called kings and chiefs for people whose lives have not been significantly affected by western traditions. Therefore, people have a choice to follow African Customary law, or Roman Dutch Law. His conceptual framework is completely flawed, and I would not be suprised if he is just making this noise to lick that "100% Zulu Boy"'s you know what as he sets his eye on the top job at the Constitutional Court.

Spiderman @ Big Bad Bob 7/10/2009 12:44:35 PM
I hear what you saying, but watch this space change when approved (It is open to interpretation at the moment). Anyway, "... it's the right thing to do!" Now where did I hear this before and where are they today?

Fred Basset 7/10/2009 12:46:53 PM
Oh, and Hlope suggests that it would be a good idea to hold court proceedings in indigenous languages because meaning can be diluted through translation.
That is precisely the reason why there is still so much Latin in legal-speak. The exact meaning of terms does not even translate to English. Just wait till we have court available in 14 official languages....all you have to do is choose the language in which your particular offence is described most vaguely.
Can anyone tell me the correct Zulu terms to distinguish between "murder" and "manslaughter", for example????

Haven't we all had ENOUGH!! 7/10/2009 12:49:30 PM
Hlophe is another example of a useless person in a high position. According to him we should have 31 different courts to support the 31 languages?? Hmmm, anyway, the reason we have so many problems is that the cops do a good job but the useless system that is the judiciary in SA, always finds loop holes for the criminals to use. If Botswana can do it, WHY CAN'T WE! If you rape, chemical castration, rob/steal, u lose a hand and so forth on, if you murder, death penalty....and all of this is broadcast on TV, so that people will see the consequences of crime. This whole save the brothers view hasn't worked because there is just an increase in crime. Screw this human rights nonsense give them what they deserve, a hole in the ground,daily hard labour, & more sever stuff...see above! Finish & klaar! I can't believe we sit here & allow people like Hlope to run our country into the ground, stupid monkey is trying to be more lenient towards criminals instead of protecting innocent victims & civilians! Botswana is looking the better choose everyday!

@TIENIE 7/10/2009 12:51:04 PM
If only there were more of us! I am with you!

michelle 7/10/2009 12:52:59 PM
First thing our country needs is two big prisons build out in the middle of the Karoo. Clean out our jails of the hard core convict and send them to the prisons out there. They must know - when you go there you never get out. Our prisoners can build the prisons themselves - Like on the chain gang.

ARYAN 7/10/2009 1:00:16 PM
If we 'Aficanise' our law system we can do away with all the qualified judges and the police. We can instead then just go and burn these criminals houses down and chase them out of the country thereby saving tax money.We can then make muti murdes legal and kill everyone that is suspected of being the tokolosh.Kangaroo courts can then be held whereby criminals can lick a hot spoon and then get judged by the blisters on their tongue hopefully resulting in a necklace or three. I cant believe idiots like Hlope can even be considdered as a judge

Maverick 7/10/2009 1:00:29 PM
I agree, it is typical of an unethical, lawless idiot to want to change the law. It is an insult to all law abiding citizens and a disgrace to the judiciary to have a biased idiot to be the judge president. If Hlope wants to change the law essentially, then he must go and sit in a mudhut and ride a cow cart and wear a foreskin and practise african law the same way as whitch doctors practice medicine.

SimonP 7/10/2009 1:07:32 PM
Yer right lets Africanise the law as all the other African success stories have, then SA will be just like the rest of the continent. Perhaps Hlophe is trying to get things changed so that his case of influencing other judges would be legal.

Karen @Poloyatonki 7/10/2009 1:11:03 PM
Things are already happening the "African" way. That is what has got us into this mess in the first place. All that they are proposing now is to "Africanise" the laws. I don't know what that is supposed to mean, but lets face it, everyhting else that has been "Africanised" has been a mess, so the law is sure to follow. To Africanise things is synonymous to messing it up and taking it backwards a couple of thousand years.

Joe Burger 7/10/2009 1:12:33 PM
Hold on a minute, I thought our Law was already africanised, we just call it corruption.

Henneri 7/10/2009 1:13:07 PM
Nice one, I'm with you. Look at the Middle east. If you steal, no hands. If you kill, no head. And it works maybe SA need to go back to using these extreme penalties to get our values back on tack. Hlope is a hopeless case thinking he can life above the law and now thinking he can change it. If he is going to Africanise South African law rape will be legal as in some African cultures young boys are still tough that if you want it take it.

Sonny @ Poloyatonki 7/10/2009 1:15:52 PM
Poloyatonki, that rhymes with donkey?

Tienie Bronkhorst 7/10/2009 1:18:25 PM
There were one or two mentions that i am not willing to stand up and be acknowledged, well there you have it, so know what you going to do.

Fred Basset 7/10/2009 1:19:05 PM
@michelle 12:52:59
I think you have a wonderful idea there, but would take it a step further. We simply fence off an area of the Karoo, put a water supply in (thats my humane side showing) and bundle all the "life prisoners" in there. Let them do whatever the hell they want to. If they want to build shelter, well good for them. Else they can starve to death under the stars. And before somebody shouts "human rights", remember that those filthy crims gave up any right to be considered human when they committed their crimes.
This would also avoid the sticky concept of bringing back the death penalty - let them take it out on each other, wild west style.

Alexander Tucker 7/10/2009 1:20:01 PM
I love the snippet in the original article ""I describe transformation as change for the better. The society is crying out loud for transformation. The citizens have a legitimate expectation." No we are not. Obviously Hlophe has spent no time in the rural areas of late because the only cries I have heard is an outcry against crime which is opposed by the current legislation.

mallory 7/10/2009 1:21:33 PM
hear hear!! stricter punshment is required not a language change!

Mzi 7/10/2009 1:22:45 PM
Judge hlophe is correct, this is not britain. the use of language should also be representative of the population. I will fully support his nomination to become the chif justice when langa retires. we need people who understand what transformation means. we need fresh people to lead the justice system to the future. he already written a letter to justice minister stating his willingness to go back to office. I hope the minister will do the right thing.

Henneri 7/10/2009 1:25:39 PM
I got an idea while we are changing every thing way can't we rename South Africa to Somalia. We can have Big Bad Bob as our president.

t.qinisile@yahoo.com 7/10/2009 1:25:39 PM
Though I fully agree with you, your suggestions are barbaric in my view.

HEin 7/10/2009 1:27:00 PM
Tienie for president!

Keagan Spong 7/10/2009 1:28:19 PM
Tienie for president!

Eles 7/10/2009 1:31:10 PM
Yip this Hlophe is the not the sharpest tool in the shed nor the most honest- also listened to him and disagree that so much could be lost in translation. Just like how the police can't arrest people found on your property claiming to be lost or my personal favourite looking for water! No accountability is a huge problem in this country! Criminals in SA are not scared of the police or doing time probably cause they know they can "lose" a docket or 2. Bring back the death penalty and make prison a place no-one wants to go - must be self-sustaining no tv, no treats of any kind! Why does the african continent need handouts all of the time - cause of their need to Africanise everything.

Lucky Ralawe to Shimane 7/10/2009 1:31:16 PM
Shimane Judge Hlope also did his BProc at Fort Hare before proceeding to Cambridge. So my guess is that he knows about African Customary which he should have studied in his BProc. The question is therefore why is he deliberately misleading the public as if African indegenous law finds no expression at all? I tend to agree with you: he knows that those who are in charge are clueless, and is keeping his eye on the top job. I don't think he will implement the nonsense proposed though, other than to have other languages used in court, which is a constitutional requirement anyway.

Maverick 7/10/2009 1:31:35 PM
All people are equal in the eyes of God, all people have been created to the image of God and all people have the knowledge of good and evil which is embedded into our conscience. Whether you believe it or not you know good from evil and you will be held accountable by God for what you thought, said and did and you will be judged according to your works, that includes the judge president.

ZEDDIE 7/10/2009 1:33:05 PM
Big Bad Bob - I agree with Tienie - The fact that you (or Hlope wants to or whoever wants to) wants to now change the language in which the law is written has NOTHING to do with his case - the bottom line is that Hlope still DID WRONG and is now digressing from what he did to another completely irrelevant issue - the language used in courts... ????....... HE DID WRONG! and it doesnt matter in which language you put it - the offender KNOWS he's done wrong!

Spiderman 7/10/2009 1:33:46 PM
Whilst we are at it then, let's Africanise Engineering (built donkey carts for travelling), Medical (surgical procedures by sharpened rock), Architecture (build mud houses), Climatology (stick our fingers in the air), Information Technology (one stone extra for addition and one broken for division), Dietician (eat until you fall over) and Musician (hammering on a drum)?

Henneri 7/10/2009 1:33:52 PM
I'm with HEin and Keagan Tienie for president. Looks like you already have two thirds of the vote.

@.... 7/10/2009 1:34:40 PM
TIA- this is africa, if you dont like it then leave

Glock 22 c 7/10/2009 1:40:57 PM
Its called the african anc way.

IandI@Fred Basset 7/10/2009 1:41:19 PM
You claim Latin legal phrases cannot be translated into exact English, so why do we use English in court when the defendant/claimant does not know/understand English? Answer in Zulu/ Sotho only, please. Let's see how if you learnt any of these languages since 1652, or whenever your ancestors landed on this continent.

mlungisi 7/10/2009 1:42:14 PM
You obviously have no idea how it feels not to use your own language. You do not know how is it to be forced to undermine your culture. You have no idea what Africa is. You did not even make an effort to try and understand what Hlophe said. You might be happy with language but I am not cos it is not my language. You cannot even translate "Umshini wami". In Africa we have our courts and laws. THIS IS AFRICA!

ZUMA 7/10/2009 1:43:21 PM
if you dont like it then get out of our country
IDIOTS

Joe 7/10/2009 1:43:56 PM
Tienie for president!

CJ 7/10/2009 1:44:16 PM
Take us to Your Leader MR T

africa 7/10/2009 1:45:04 PM
TIA this is africa if you dont like it then leave

Poloyatonki @ Mzi 7/10/2009 1:46:03 PM
Mzi did you read Lynda Odendaal story?
http://www.news24.com/Content/SouthAfrica/Politics/1057/ccf21348e94147289a5dc7516fab1217/10-07-2009%2008-07/Cope_vision_hijacked

SimonP 7/10/2009 1:46:37 PM
@Mzi, what a surprise to see you 100% backing an ANC member. If the ANC said everyone called Mzi should go jump off a cliff you wou;d do it.

Mobster 7/10/2009 1:47:09 PM
@ARYAN - Hlophe is making the right noises so that he WILL be appointed as Chief Justice in October when Judge Langa retires! Why do you think he tried to influence other Constitutional Court judges on the Zuma case?
@Michelle - why build more prisons, we have the perfect maximum security prison on Robben Island. All facilities installed, put all the hardcore trash there, let them take care of themselves without guards or warders. When the food & water runs out they will become shark feed! Reinstate the "world heritage" site back to what it was intended, a leper colony & prison!

Knightrider @ Sonny 7/10/2009 1:50:06 PM
Sonny, you are out of line, irresponsible and inaccurate in your comment. Poloyatonki rhymes with monkey.

hjs 7/10/2009 1:50:26 PM
And I thought it is wrong to steal and murder in every culture. Why should "African" law be different?

SimonP 7/10/2009 1:50:47 PM
Poloyatonki Im probably wasting my time but please direct me to a country in sub-saharan Africa that has chosen the "African way" and is a success. I await the long list with bated breathe.

Mike Ambassador 7/10/2009 1:50:49 PM
@Poloyatonki please explain to me what is Africanise?? and explain it to me like a 2 year old so that I can understand it properly, thanks Mike

Z 7/10/2009 1:51:19 PM
Tieni you are paranoid. Please re-read the article without any of your preconceived prejudices of the man, may be you will understand what he is saying. Or may be find a different topic to write about.

Betsie 7/10/2009 1:51:46 PM
Can someone clarify what the "african way" is? I see reference to it often, but not what it is? Lets take murder. What is the "african way" to punish a person that commited murder? Death/being banished/prison/a fine/nothing?

Alex 7/10/2009 1:53:50 PM
What have you guys got against the Karoo? It's too fabulous a place to go and pollute with criminals!

samsam @TIENIE 7/10/2009 1:54:00 PM
I hate people who write articles without doing research. The Const is there, you are wasting our time reading this rubbish of yours, instead of suggesting us to campaign for Amendment of the Const, and I guess you voted DA in order to defend Const,but you are the first person to misinterpreting the Const. with regard to violent crime,I have strong evidence that it is committed by foreigners not SAs, read sowetan 10/7/2009,P.6, a Mozambiquens together with Anias Mathes, a lady who robbed FIFA exec, Jeppes murderes,so what must we do to stop such people coming to our land

Ray 7/10/2009 1:56:29 PM
Parts of SA law has its roots in the Roman Dutch system and parts of it in English law.All of SA laws are developing with new judgments on various issues and in addition to the Constitutional Court judgments on constitutional issues.Our laws are "africanised" already as a consequence of this developmental process.What needs to happen is that some people who are not suited to the position of judge should leave.And I am thinking of those who by means of their conduct bring the bench's reputation and integrity into question by driving through garden wall under the influence of tea, being detained on a rape charge in a foreign country, flying into a rage and wanting to send legal professionals back to Holland and trying to influence judges to be biased with regard to an accused...

CJS 7/10/2009 1:56:36 PM
Yes go Jacob Tienie Zuma

Plain & simple 7/10/2009 2:07:57 PM
This thing is simple, the law says"Thou shall not kill,steal, covert yr neighbours wife/hubby.Fathers don't provoke yr kids & kids obey yr parents.Do we need to interprete this one too... SA stop complicating things, dont get dragged by people who have secret agendas - in the name of "the masses"Hlophe should live by an example.. I smell a rat!!!!

Aryan@samsam 7/10/2009 2:14:22 PM
Ha-ha. If you use the sowetan as strong evidence our country is in deeper sh@t then I thought. Stop commenting cause your killing me here Ha-ha-ha

SimonP 7/10/2009 2:16:47 PM
@Samsam "I have strong evidence" well that would be a first, would you care to post a link so we can have access to it.

Tienie 7/10/2009 2:18:27 PM
@Z. What should i be paranoid about mate? I have never needed to be corrected by the law and dont foresee me turning to crime anytime soon. So what? I read the article and i understand every word. I dont understand the reasoning. As soon as these guys find themselves in sh@t, they make suggestions to have things changed so they can get of the hook. Now who is not seeing the big picture you jelly baby!!!

lotus 7/10/2009 2:22:15 PM
Landl you are a scandal - i am South African of oriental descent and speak english/afrikaans/madarin. if my grandparents made the effort to learn english and afrikaans as did my parents then i think it only fair to ask the law to accommodate mandarin because in our diverse society there are NON-European south africans who do not speak an african language. And by that i assume you mean xhosa/sotho/pedi etc. the idea is to spend money on critical needs not Judge Hlophe's flights of fancy. English is a universal language - learn it.

big Jon 7/10/2009 2:25:55 PM
you tell em Tienie,

prime 7/10/2009 2:26:48 PM
@cjs go be sarcastic somewhere else if you don't have anything intelligent to say then don't speak at all you are really and totally useless

Big Bad Bob 7/10/2009 2:27:17 PM
Gee! Some of y'all need to learn to read and then to quote accurately. @Shimane: News 24's report said that - they didn't attribute it to Hlope or anybody else. @Mr Roman Dutch - there isn't anything in there that could reasonably be described as racist. I think you either are deliberately misconstruing or you have a pretty thin skin.

AC to samsam 1:54 7/10/2009 2:28:57 PM
"So what must we do to stop such people coming to our land". Mmmmmm, let me think. Maybe vote for another party that will actually do something to stop it instead of encouraging it. You tonsil you. No wonder this whole continent is in the shit.

Hlophe for Chief Justice 7/10/2009 2:35:06 PM
If this guy gets the chief justice position it is another nail in the coffin and JZ appointing his buddies to top jobs. WHEN WILL THIS COUNTRY LEARN?

CJ 7/10/2009 2:36:48 PM
We all sit and complain about Crime and corruption, but when someone has the balls to stand up and suggest proper measures to counter these sickening crimes that are constantly occuring in Our country, more then half of the lumps of complaining Sh@ts out there will find something wrong with the methods that are suggested and suppose to scared to implement these suggested methods because YOUR SCARED TO GET CAUGHT.

LG 7/10/2009 2:38:35 PM
This is everyone's country to those who say those who don't like it leave. and any case, has anyone thought that you will need interpreters anyways, what if there is a case involving a Xhosa,Zulu and an Afrikaner , are we going to have the proceedings three times to cater for each language, no it will be in English. I do agree to have the Latin dropped so everyone has a better understanding.

Duzi @ samsam 7/10/2009 2:38:57 PM
That's the way samsam! Just pass the blame on elsewhere... same ol same ol... that's the REAL African way, never take resposibility for anything.

cindy 7/10/2009 2:39:53 PM
@samsam pray do tell, why are all those foreigners here in the first place?!? who threw open the gates at the borders and said "come in, no visa needed" but i'll bet you have an answer ready as to why it was ok for your anc to allow free entry into sa from neighbouring countries, right?

AC @ Mlungisi 1:42 7/10/2009 2:42:39 PM
Still putting your useless 5c's worth in I see. Thought you have immigrated. Pity

Duzi @ Poloyatonki 7/10/2009 2:44:16 PM
I'm with Mike Ambassador here. Please do us a favour and explain what "The African" way is in your view? I'm African and I have no idea what you are talking about so please ellaborate.

reknaw 7/10/2009 2:46:34 PM
Poloyotanki-Not sure if your all with it are you mailing from an institution,what is the African way vs the european way-is it for example hanging european style vs necklace african style,not sure what you on about think you need to wake up sunshine,you postings are so boring you and Mamela should team up and become tweedle dee and tweedle dumber

Fred Basset 7/10/2009 2:47:07 PM
@ IandI
I don't speak Latin either....yingakho siphethe ummeli.

Poloyatonki @ Mike Ambassador 7/10/2009 2:51:11 PM
Here is an example, in china they drafted their own law and In Africa laws were draft by Europeans and now we need a law that we can say it’s our African law. Another thing… in Solomon Island, there is a tribe that believed that if a couple gets divorced they must stay 2 kuakibas (2 year) without being involved in any other relationship and their gov incorporated that into law….. is just that I read this when I was still at school, I will see if I can get you a reference…

AC to t.qinisile@yahoo.com 1:25 7/10/2009 2:52:19 PM
Oi, Firstly, don't put your e-mail address on you pillock. And secondly, your post. "Though I fully agree with you, your suggestions are barbaric in my view"? WTF??? Did you actually read it before submitting it? A sandwich short of a picnic today are we?

Daile 7/10/2009 2:56:09 PM
Dropping the latin phrases and other forms of legalise that some lawyers use to confuse people is a good idea.
The the very broad term "Africanise" the law is disturbing.
How African does Hlope want to go?
Some really savage and barbaric acts, like muti murders, are, or were, part of Africa.
Rape was also O.K. as long as it was outside of your tribe.
Hlope definately did not mean that these acts would be now down graded to fit in with Africanisation.
Until we have the specifics of what he means we must assume that Africanisation of the law is that anyone with a senior position in the government or judiciary can do what they like unduly influence others or pocket tax payers money at will.
Let Hlope come up with specifics regardin

Maverick 7/10/2009 2:58:20 PM
@ZUMA -if we must get out of the country, then you must give back all the western/european luxury, riches and technology that you live with (house, car, electricity, flush toilet, running water, cell phone, suit, etc) that the white man brought into this country. Who is the idiot now ?

Gee@Samsam@TIENIE 7/10/2009 3:00:19 PM
Please tell me you had a typo error your "strong evidence" is the Sowetan??? You must be thicker than i initially thought

SimonP 7/10/2009 3:05:36 PM
@Samsam please tell me what research one should do when expressing ones opinion. Do you believe everything you read in the media or just the stuff that fits in with your views (I mean ANCs view) Im sure you said the media was white controlled third force hogwash.

fred@samsam @TIENIE 7/10/2009 3:08:47 PM
try voting for a party that strengthen our borders. Also you could try understanding the ideas of sample size and reliable sources. I guess they didnt teach that in your business management course. you should get your money back mate.

DHV 7/10/2009 3:09:47 PM
Well said Maverick. They claim to hate the Western way of life but love western inventions - clothes, electricity, cars etc. What has Africa contributed to the world? (not talking about poverty & disease)

Lisa 7/10/2009 3:11:31 PM
@Mzi: So what you're saying is you prefer having people who drive drunk, commit perjury, make rascist statements and generally act foolish running the judiciary of your country? Man oh man...

JB 7/10/2009 3:13:24 PM
The blog by Orpheus is better than this self righteous stuff, Read it Tienie, it has what we like to call "facts" in it

Gogga 7/10/2009 3:16:47 PM
Now I am a woman and yes I must say I like this part very much "If you are caught raping, chop of what needs to be chopped of so you can't do this again, yip I said it." Like Islam teaches you an eye for an eye...

Big Bad Bob @ Zeddie 7/10/2009 3:20:09 PM
I'm not sure what you're agreeing with. You suggest that I've said something that I haven't said. You also say you agree with Tienie and then immediately enter into some piece of conjecture that has nothing to do with Tienie's original article.

samsam @CINDY 7/10/2009 3:22:12 PM
thats brainless comment my love, borders werent opened for dangerous criminals, ANC is friend to more than 500 countries around the world compared tour your party ANC is not a friend of criminals

Big Bad Bob 7/10/2009 3:22:12 PM
What does it mean to "africanise"? Would we be airing the same objections if somebody was talking about "westernising" or "anglicising"?

Tienie 7/10/2009 3:24:43 PM
@JB. Mate, i did not do research to write this piece, i read the article this morning and it had what i like to call, a stink to it. If your not going to contribute, shut up.

craig 7/10/2009 3:32:55 PM
HOLDIT........you are all dreaming of the impossible. It WILL NEVER hapen in this country.. do you want the ANC to kill all their supporters. We will be a country of one legger, one armed dickless men who do less than they ever used to before... Maybe we shopuld change the name of the country in memory of MJ to NEVER NEVER LAND.... it will never never happen here..so wake up and smell the "bloody" roses ...

Jakkals 7/10/2009 3:41:22 PM
@Zuma - Listen, are you always this stupid or are you just making a special efford
today?

Mike Ambassador 7/10/2009 3:44:44 PM
@Poloyatonki Thanks for the example and short explaination, notsure of your gender but imagine u where a women & arranged marriages was part of the deal (as in Northern Uganda - big problem at present as young as 9 years been married off), & ur Dad married u off to a old smelly man (& you can't refuse or be put to death).... not so lekker to be on the recieving end of such a incorporated law or like Somalia were female genital mutilation is law!!!, and the list goes on ... we need to focus on the bill of rights in dealing with law not the loose term "Africanisation" as it just sounds like a sound bite to boost the good judges struggle credentials so he can go for the big consti. job. If you mean "Africanise" by improving language access for non fluent english speakers then I support it 100%, but if it's to bring in oppressive cultural laws (including slavery and child & or sexual abuse) I cannot. We need to stop being hung up on words here as I am sure we all want equal treatment & have our human rights respected by the law, is that not the bigger ideal??

Mzi 7/10/2009 3:47:34 PM
I dont know to be honest... now that I have given is some though, i think judge hlophe is just trying to elevate himself and improve his transformation credentials in line with the legal problems he is busy having at this moment. this might not be britain but still.. you kmnow, we need to make something.. Pius Langa is good stuff, hlophe is an idiot who is busy casting our already shabby and pathetic justice system into further disrepute.

Big Bad Bob @ Zuma 7/10/2009 3:50:44 PM
This country is the country of all South Africans, irrespective of gender, ethnicity etc. That's not what I say, that's what the Constitution says and, BTW, what the Freedom Charter says. Your attitude is the same one that NF thugs in England display towards Pakistanis and other immigrants. Nice company you keep.

allan 7/10/2009 3:54:19 PM
@sonny and knightrider , guys in the spirit of our democracy stop calling our brother polonyheadtonki such names.....oops

batman 7/10/2009 3:54:43 PM
@zuma I'd love to leave, only reason majority of people haven't left is because of the exchange controls, and if the country is doing so well like they say it is, free exchange control so that I can take my money and leave. @tienie They will never bring back the death penalty as they know 90% of there voters will be killed.

max 7/10/2009 4:02:19 PM
There we have it! To Africanise something is construed to be viciuos and bloody! "Necklacing"', "chopping off" - what racist rubbish! Tanzania and Malawi are less violent than the UK...

CM 7/10/2009 4:06:50 PM
I find it ironic how many here want no influence from the west. Tell me, who do we run to everytime our money dries up?

Robert Mugabe 7/10/2009 4:07:24 PM
@samsam - You are an insignificant little man for claiming that my subjects are the source of your criminal activities!

griet 7/10/2009 4:12:27 PM
Apart from everything else, where are all these translaters going to come from? Judging from the poor command of English we see and hear daily, how will people be sure that the true version of their plea is being given to the court? We should rather follow Namibia's example, schools are English and you can speak whatever language you like at home.The do well at Universities, regardless of all the bleating about "mother tongue education". We are just being made prisoners in this country beacuse we are denied the right to be fluent in an International language.

SimonP 7/10/2009 4:25:02 PM
Samsam "ANC is friend to more than 500 countries" I suggest you do some research buddy, I challenge you to name 200 countries. Perhaps like so many other facts of yours, you either read it in the Sowetan or you just made it up.

David 7/10/2009 4:34:12 PM
Poloyatonki have you had a look at Africa lately. Nothing to be proud of

etcape 7/10/2009 4:45:25 PM
Now, why don't Mr. Hlophe come clean with all this interference before trying to change the law. or is it maybe easier for him to get off scott free if he can change the law first? Thats what I want to know.

Whyvos 7/10/2009 5:10:50 PM
I for one would appreciate a document written clearly, to the point and understandable. The mumble jumble that hides some very important facts should be changed. Look at any insurance document and you will see how the most important clauses are masked by long and dragged out words that mean nothing. But the document is set up in this way to tire the reader in order for him / her to miss the point that the sentence tries to make. With dire consequences for the reader.

James 7/10/2009 5:25:26 PM
This is a somewhat futile debate. The country and it's laws and court procedures are based on well established grounds,all very old which are of course not Afrocentric right now. While our financial situation and trade is so involved with the so-called western world, I cannot see us translating 9 or 10 other languages back into English or Latin in order to conduct law cases against the outside world. WE should perhaps settle for Chinese law, and Chinese in our courts, because that is the way things seem to be heading. Woe betide any perpetrators under those laws....death for very ordinary crimes.

Ouklip 7/10/2009 5:52:44 PM
With the Dutch in 1652 came Roman Dutch law. What would the comman man do in this situation? Judge Hlophe is merely talking about the way to look at a situation rom a legal point. He is not suggestingb that corruption will be legal. A very confused article and even more confused comments. By the way it is not illegal to know your neigbours wife better than you should.

reknaw-@ Maverick 7/10/2009 6:06:29 PM
Boet why do you want to take it all back she is broken already,eskom.telkom ect ect ect

Smk 7/10/2009 6:07:25 PM
Changing the language of a law does not in any right that people will change or even understand it. If you are restraining a screaming woman, forcing yourself on her while she resists , shouting screaming and kicking. You should have the brains to realise what you are doing is not right, If you steal/muder/rape or cause and negative result by your actions you are breaking the law. The one law above all and transcends race and gender, if you are doing something that causes pain or grief financially or emotionally by your direct actions you are committing a crime. If you cannot rationalize that then you need to be disciplined. An eye for an eye in my books. God forbid anything had to happen to my wife or son. You do not want to see what would happen cause my wrath would be immense. I have already had my 3 best friends killed and I have forgiven that but for something to happen to my wife or son....

Hnie 7/10/2009 6:48:49 PM
There will always be people like Poloyatonki and co. that are soooooo racist making stupid remarks. They are regulars in these discussions and never contribute anything worthwhile. You guys should take a good look at your attitude and rather spend your time elsewhere.

reknaw 7/10/2009 7:53:57 PM
what is it that every time someone has a valid opinion about the situation in SA about crime corruption,poor delivery,law and order,eskom,rape,murder ect ect ect there is always a wise cracker who says if you do not like it then leave this is Africa,what a stupid statement,suppose you have to see were its coming from,please try and be original its everyones country and they have a right to compalin about the f....up,maybe they are passionate about the country and are just gatvol of living in fear with a incompetent goverment does not mean they have to leave,---elohesra-- read backwards for the mentally challenged

Hmm 7/11/2009 1:32:57 AM
Good one Tienie!Institute Draconian Law .
It'll be one way to silence Malema!! Off with the tongue! The brain of course is off limits as there is nothing there!!

Roland 7/11/2009 1:49:06 AM
Poloyotanki...please, God help us, just define for us, for once and for all, what is the African way?? Is it just the opposite of the west, is it a malleable action which suites one portion of the population's perspective. I am so sick of hearing that we are in Africa and not in Europe. It's become a euphamism for "forget all reason which has been established over thousands of years, do it the African way rather." Your statement flys in the face of the fact that Africans like all others do posess faculties of reason...God help us ALL!

Africanise 7/11/2009 7:24:36 AM
Africanise s a reality. We should not be the only civilized country in Africa; we are transforming into Africa standards. We are in Africa and we will conform to Africa standards. Africanise is just another new and nice word that means we will be corrupt, we will rape when we want, we will steal what we need, we will kill when we want and who we want. God forbid any civilized person in South Africa wants to stop them. That is the reason why so many educated people are leaving South Africa. Maybe we are LUCKY because we work very hard to get a good education and excellent work experience. Don’t say we were privilege because my parents are poor and I did not complete high school. I hold an MBA from Unisa now and it was all done while working and studying at the same time. We all know the people in power wants. Total power and no LAW can stop them as we seen. The real solution is educating the man in the street then they will realize what these washouts are doing. But it is too late in the game to stop them now but to get South Africa out of the gutter and improve the future is education.

hannah 7/11/2009 8:26:01 AM
I think we should learn to be more tolerant of each other and each others ways, and if it means change then so be it. If it makes people understand each other better, then and we grow toward a closer community then isnt that the point.

ea 7/11/2009 9:51:41 AM
Your Programming that you are So Proud of IS the Problem,Tienie.Your Programming is Not All Good.The Programming is From Others Not YOU.What makes it So easy to Accept things you have been Programmed with from an Early age.Did you Have a Choice? You have been Indoctrinated with LAW.Stop looking At others to Define your Sense of Law.There is but One.

André 7/11/2009 10:44:29 AM
The fact is that Africa wants to divide themselves from the rest of the world to apply their own rules...same as some Muslim countries do. If they don't get it their way they want to apply African rules, same as Mugabe blaming the British for everything..how can an old man that is dying have so much power..make's me wonder who really rules the world...Bilderburgs, Rockefellers etc!!

reknaw-ZUMA 7/11/2009 2:19:47 PM
I did not like what was happening and left the country even though if you have any grey matter do you think its right that a person should have to leave a country because they fear what could happen to there family, irrelevant the colour,this comment that is repeated at nauseam,if you dont like it leave,grow up you elohesra,read it backwards,AMANDLA VIVA VIVA,FREEDOM,what freedom?

Johan Strijdom 7/11/2009 4:12:47 PM
Hlope is a vile racist and kleptocrat. It just so happens that hes also a close friend of Barney Pityana, whom I work for: same corrupt way of operating. 'Africanization' is jsut a fine cover to allow rampant corruption, skimming off profits, and turning SA into another banana republic--coing for SA what Pityana did for Unisa. shame on you all, you sons of the dark continent!

GeorGe 7/11/2009 4:26:55 PM
There/their, two/too/to, know/now/no, excess/access, of/off. Just a few thar irk me in this forum. Please look them up and see the difference. Eengleesh as she is spoke.

GeorGe @ Samsam 7/11/2009 4:31:27 PM
More than 500 countries the ANC is friends with! Wow - 500? Just take a count - you're way off the mark. Maybe 150 - but 500?

Peru Govender 7/11/2009 5:31:40 PM
It is sad that we have idiots like Tienie and company that have a limited outlook to life . Justify NOT LEAGALISING TRADITIONAL INDIAN and African MARRIGES - Justify been charged for comtempt of court because you do not say "SIR , HONOUR etc - ( I was charged )- Justify the use of the ugly hair pieces because IT"S THE LAW - You morans - We live in a beautiful country - but only a small percentage of the population benefit from this privilage - Stop Waning because you have more and to lose some , so that all can be equal - ONLY the ones that HAVE too much complain - Crime - Crime -Crime - 90% is committed by people we know that are greedy and selfish - On the other hand Rapist are PIGS with an uncontroled PPPPPNESSS

Peru Govender 7/11/2009 5:34:22 PM
@ batman - Milk the countries wealth and run - I am certain you are using your families wealth - Idiots like you are sad - Go FYS -

Snooty 7/11/2009 8:07:57 PM
To Zuma & Africa : I am SA born and bred, same as my parents, grand parents and great grand parents. I am a whitey and this is MY COUNTRY....what makes you so special? Just because you are Black???

A South Afriman 7/12/2009 6:40:00 AM
This is just Hlophe making noises to show he's still on the screen. Communities must tackle their own crime problems. If your neighbours are burning copper cables you have the responsibility to act on it. There are many examples of this. Unfortunately the African way is to ignore it. I doubt very much that Shaka's way of dealing with injustice / crime would be appreciated today. Our population will be decimated in no time at all. Stop villifying Tienie for putting the truth on paper.

Frank 7/12/2009 8:32:06 AM
We all long to go back 400 years with less than a million people in SA and all the land and wild life but how do you cope with 50 million and little wild life? I suggest these people you talk, and talk only of Africianism should produce a model of their culture and then try and sell it to the people. Read "The E Myth" by Michael E Gerber,
Brilliant.

jim 7/12/2009 9:35:20 AM
what if we disagree but I am absolutely convinced that what I am doing is right, but you dont - e.g. smoking weed. Who is then right?

@ZUMA 7/12/2009 12:56:22 PM
WOW may man or woman! Your words are reminiscent of the "HureVolk" of the late 60's. Are you trying to get rid of the freedom of speech or does that aspect of the constituion mean nothing to you. Nonetheless Mr. Mugabe wannabe, have it your way get rid of all the people who feel they have a right to free speech! BTW have you heard of the term called reverse racism?

K1d 7/12/2009 4:42:28 PM
We are blessed with an international constitution, why would we want to make a mockery of it & dilute it with sectional continental "law" ?

Eric 7/12/2009 4:52:12 PM
Some years ago there was some talk about africanizing maths and science.One part of Hydrogen and two of Oxygen is always going to be water no matter which language its going to be in. We all know what has happened to the education system over the last 15 years.Will the same happen to the Judicial system however flawed it is at the moment?Its funny how because of a technicality someone who is blatantly guilty can escape the law.What is legal is not necessarily right

@SamSam 7/13/2009 5:44:25 AM
For once you are right, Sort off. The ANC is not the friend of criminals. They ARE the criminals YOU TWAT. Oh and that is REALLY RICH. Just open the borders (Free for All) and just how the hell are you going to STOP the criminals from entering at will. You Africans are REALLY dumm dumms!! You know that????

Maarten 7/13/2009 7:14:00 AM
If he wanted to change the language why didn't he just say so. Does that also mean that we are going to have the law available in 11 official languages and that we are all going to be able to choose the judge who speaks our language. This it job creation at its best...Rubish Africanise/Transform means just that. Lets change the law to suite the africans. Last time the Africans were under african law there was a chap called Shaka Zulu. He knew how to punish the law breakers... the africans however choose to forget thispart of history. They would rather critisize the laws imposes onto them under "apartheid". I say give them what the want and see how long it is before they start begging for the "apartheid" laws again.

Tilo 7/13/2009 9:49:27 AM
I practice law. How on earth are you going to learn all the languages - remember it is not only the 11 of South Africa that you have to deal with? English is regarded as the international business language – try and find documentation is all 11 languages in e.g a bank…..
A pity I have done my degrees a couple of years ago – If the going to change things, why not shorten the years also and do away with Latin. Then they can be assured that these people cannot leave the country for they will not be able to practice in any other country.
Haven't we all had ENOUGH – How I wish this could happen!

Confused in Court 7/13/2009 10:01:56 AM
Everyone has the right to be tried in his or her own language. Something will ALWAYS get lost in the translation and that can lead to more problems than its worth. We have 11 official languages... its about time we had courts that provided for all of them.

@tienie 7/13/2009 11:02:01 AM
Everything to be Africanized, meaning to be of our own as African people has to be Wrong isn’t it? What is wrong with changing things for better? “You said they change the law to meet their own needs” Who are they? MAJORITY OF WHITE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY MUST WAKE UP OR THEY WILL FOREVER MOURN WHEN THINGS CHANGE IN THEIR FACE FOR BETTER. I think your a DA joke and nobody should take you serious.

cindy 7/13/2009 11:16:19 AM
@samsam first things first, i'm not "your love" i think i have better taste & sense! and as for ANC not opening up the border to criminals, geez, i suppose they didn't think opening the borders would cause ANY criminal activity..? at least now they have an excuse - oh, it's the foreigners, what must we do?!?! crappy excuse, but an excuse nevertheless

Maverick @reknaw 7/13/2009 12:00:42 PM
or is it wanker, well hidden those idoits couldn't see it although you tipped them.
We can fix it, we can work hard, we can teach them, we can help them, but they are blinded by their prejudices and hatred and ignorance, they will realise their mistake, they will be sorry about it, but it will be too late for them, so best they listen now and start changing their attitudes and maybe all will be better.

Tienie 7/13/2009 1:33:43 PM
Some people really know how to interoret things wrongly, now i understand these ludacris statements.The point i wanted to make is the Mr Hlope is under scrutiny for his illegal ways, and regardless in which language you read it its wrong.Now i ave people trying to teach me law, no thanks. I agree you should be able to be tried in your own language, never disputed that. But why and since when do we allow criminals to be part of creating a law, counter-productive if you ask me.Someone mentioned my upbringing was wrong, well my apologies if murder, fraud, etc etc are not OK with me, maybe my parents did it wrong.

jo 7/13/2009 2:43:22 PM
Are they going to take away all the "european" or "Western" things??? i mean i like my car, cell phone, the streets, the buildings .... Africanise what a lot of Bull grow up peopele everyone of you are a bunch of hipocrytes. there is no european or african, there is only right and wrong.

yashcon 7/13/2009 3:06:48 PM
hahahahahahaha, Im laughing because the writer obviously did not understand the article he read and now to "open a debate" has written this article..... pathetic

@Cindy 7/13/2009 4:08:12 PM
I guess the reason they opened up the borders is because the neighbouring countries did offer refuge when they needed during the apartheid era........ ever thought of that?

@GeorGe 7/13/2009 4:09:19 PM
thar/that It happens to the best of us

PG 7/13/2009 4:31:38 PM
@Eric - you must have got your education in the last 15 years too if you think that 1 part hydrogen to 2 parts oxygen gives you water - thanks for the good chuckle provided - PG

Bonny 7/13/2009 4:38:33 PM
@ea And he is the Highlander.

Frank II 7/13/2009 4:55:59 PM
South African law has a proud history. It was founded on the Dutch law system which had its roots in Roman law - the world's most advanced society - more than 2000 years ago. Also, our law system and that of other European countries are more sophisticated than that of the UK and America. Sadly few people appreciate it.

GoodNews 7/13/2009 10:28:33 PM
Having traveled and worked extensively throughout Africa over the last 20 years I have seen that no matter whether it is Dutch-Roman, Napoleonic, or and other legal system, civil order eventually collapses under the burden of overpopulation, tribalism, lack of education and medical facilities. The type of legal system no longer matters. Furthermore, the populace is by now so poor, uneducated and downtrodden that (violent) crime a la SA in no longer an option. Ultimately only corruption at all levels of local and central government affects the general population, and it is accepted as a fact of life. Uncanny how SA is following the same blueprint to destruction, and nobody gains anything ..... ask the many political refugees and their families currently hiding in SA.

James @ Poloyatonki 7/14/2009 9:31:41 AM
Poloyatonki, are you related to Kolobe? Two villages must be lost without their idiots.

terry 7/14/2009 10:36:50 AM
The use of language in law is critical and thats why there is still a heavy reliance on latin in Law thereby limiting its interpretation to a single meaning and giving us a relaible and equitable legal framework . If you change this you are opening up pandora's box but i'm all for people having their case being clearly explained in their language of choice but tread carefully in translations as meaning is lost . The laws we embrace are a culmination of centuries of insight into law and the equity thereof,which is incased in a constitution which is globally respected . Messing with the current system is like my local mechanic informing the Ferarri F1 team that they doing it wrong .Clarity in the term "africanise" needs to be established before this can even thought of being put to debate .

Martin 7/14/2009 12:42:52 PM
Hey T, what you are saying is 100% right, however so think if you are African you have the right to be stupid, murder is acceptable, rape is accepteble, look at Morena's response, how dump.

Twins granny 7/16/2009 5:17:19 PM
The past week a mother driving a Fortune with her 4 month old twins and her mother escaped a hijacking attact narrowly. Are we going to wait till it happens so regular before we stand together and do something.
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