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Tamara Aspeling

News24 User

'Wake up corporate SA'

by Tamara Aspeling
2009-06-30 09:58

Dear Editor,

With the brain drain making news every day, I have begun to question the logic of South African companies and recruiters.

My personal experience is that, even though I have ten years experience in highly specialised fields, an above average IQ, and a highly diverse portfolio of achievements, because I lack a degree, I simply am not considered for any mid-level positions.

When I apply for junior positions, I am turned down for being overqualified. It's the same experience versus first job scenario all over again.

However, the problem runs deeper I think.

I can name several acquaintances, off the top of my head, who I would consider to be highly intelligent.

However, these same people lacked the financial backing to attend university, and did not score high enough to secure bursaries. Assuming of course that bursaries would have been available to them.

So, while I make my living as a freelance writer, although I yearn to re-enter the corporate world, many of these highly intelligent, potentially valuable employees, work in bars or restaurants, slowly becoming more and more jaded and discouraged.

The question I have to ask is if the brain drain is that big of a problem, why are companies not making more of an effort to employ, and train, talented individuals, regardless of race, gender or age, thereby addressing the issue directly, and allowing deserving candidates the opportunities they lack?

There's a whole generation of people out there, lost in limbo, many of whom have the ability and aptitudes, but lack the means. Come on corporate South Africa! Wake up!

Tamara Aspeling

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Gerhard 6/30/2009 10:10:34 AM
I could not agree more, i have found the very same thing. I then moved to Europe and they do not stick to the "you must have a degree" thing. They look at your CV from top to bottom.

The Solution 6/30/2009 10:16:23 AM
Interesting point, however Tamara you have to realise that the brain drain affects professions and specialist environments i.e Dr.s, accountants(CA's), Engineers, Economists etc. Thus a degree is an essential element in such environments, even still a degree alone is not enough i.e CA have to pass board exams which have a high failure rate, the same can be said for structural engineers. My advice is, if you have an income, UNISA offers the best distance learning education or part-time study.
If you are still not convinced, picture this: You wake in the middle of the night with a pounding headache you feel like death warmed up, you summon an ambulance it arrives and gets to hospital after taking what feels like forever. You do an emergency MRI which reveals you have pressure building up in your skull, which needs to be drilled ASAP to give a release otherwise you die. The Dr is a certain Corne who is likeable fellow articulate and seems rather smart, however you find out that Corne spent the last ten years assisting Dr Mulder in driekiesfontein, and thus with no degree was considered skilled enough top be an intern, would you seriously allow him to drill your head open??

Juan 6/30/2009 10:19:01 AM
On the flipside, the 'brain drain' is a good thing for those of us remaining here. If you have the right skills, you are in a good position to virtually pick and choose a job. AA and BEE is ALSO beneficial as aa and bee candidates tend to mess up their jobs, and I can come back in charging CONTRACT RATES to fix up their mess. So if you have the RIGHT skills, there's a LOT of money to be made and you can beat our stoopid supressive government at their OWN game!!!

SeanO 6/30/2009 10:21:23 AM
There are many "un-degreed", skilled people out there more suited to a position than most graduates. The criteria should be that you either can or cannot do the job. I believe unreasonable BEE and AA pressures on corporate SA are largely to blame. The bottom line is that there is no guarantee that the graduate can perform to expectation, yet they command (demand?) huge salaries. As with every appointment, business or sport, the placement should be made on merit.

Anon 6/30/2009 10:22:18 AM
Especially in the local and global economic meltdown, the country needs more highly qualifies employees that actually add value by coming up with solutions in their respective fields that having to employ inexperienced and under-qualified individuals to comply with quotas. This is what I have noticed in the industry I am working in, more emphasis is placed on EE/BBBEE than competance.

HJ 6/30/2009 10:22:59 AM
Good Article, it time that this people to wake up, if a std 3 person can run a country, how hard can it be for Companies to train people??????

warmaster 6/30/2009 10:23:56 AM
Errrm....have you heard of the economic meltdown? Jobs are drying up for everyone, not just those without degrees, they retrenched half the highly skilled staff where I work, all with good degrees.

Ndaa..! 6/30/2009 10:24:33 AM
You need to go to school and acquire a degree or atleast a Diploma, period. Unfortunately that is the only yardstick with which somebody's ability to do the job can be assessed. Else, start a business and use your claimed above IQ to come-up with an innovative idea and approach funding institution which do not necessarily use that criterion for funding a business idea

Glock 22 c 6/30/2009 10:26:37 AM
Because companies are forced to employ BEE candidates and not the best person for the job. Do you think the people in Parliament all have degree's ? NOPE Just the right connections

Mzi 6/30/2009 10:27:13 AM
You are not alone, SA high unemployment rate does not only refer to the poor. with the ten years experience and above average IQ as you claim, UNISA and TUT could have recognised you in that specialised field (ever heard of RPL). why didn't you register? I have been using loans to obtain my degree, why didn't you do the same than wait for bursaries. Surely you cannot blame companies for these, remember you are competing with young, finest minds in that field. they went to tertiary to learn advanced skills in your field. my advice to you is to take whatever comes your way and fight for survival just like an average person.

GKT 6/30/2009 10:27:44 AM
Well Tamara, you have heard of Affirmative Action and BEE, I'm sure. Business is politics and no more so than in SA. Politics operates with a self interest and profit motive, just like business. In addition, you have got to know the right people. I know many people you are well connected, but quite simply "below average" intelligence. But man, do they get the plum jobs! There is no such thing as "neutrality". The ANC government (new black political elite) and Big Business (old white economic elite) try and give the impression that they are "neutral" and only want the best for SA. Rubbish! In SA one cannot ignore colour, race & gender. It's part of the system. Besides, there is a general denial that a "brain drain" exists. The ANC and Big Business believe that they have all the brains they need. Why stop an alleged brain drain? Since immigrating to the UK, I have met loads of South African's here, to my surprise, seems like more than what's in Perth, Australia, at the moment. These SA's are doing extremely well in many areas of their lives, not just financially. What's great about first world developing countries is that all are treated fairly and equally. That's why smart, intelligent SA's such as yourself, would thrive in this environment. You will wither away in SA, and look back on your career one day with regret. No matter how hard you try to add value, you will be hitting your head against a system, that pushes back on you, much more severely than you ever pushed it. SA has an "immune system" that rejects what it perceives to be a foreign body! My suggestion to you and anyone else: leave SA as quickly as possible. If you are as good as what you allude to, the world is waiting for you. SA is no competition. You won't become great there in any event.

benzo 6/30/2009 10:27:58 AM
corporate recruitment is generaly delegated to a recruitment section in the HR department. they have been given selection guidelines: 1. the candidate must fit the BEE count. 2. the candidate must have the required colourfull papers called diplomas, certificates and so on. A typical candidate without one of those will not pass this rather brainless pre-selection barreer. IQ is not necessarily a good selection mechanism as many with a high IQ do not work well in a corporate environment where fitting in in the "processes" and corporate culture is more important than creativity. Just stick to being independent and be happy....or start your own corporate business.

Mfanafuthi 6/30/2009 10:28:13 AM
@Tamara-I'm not sure if making means to study available does actually encourage people to study further.I'm an accountant at a tertiary intitution in CT and worked at a tertiary institution in DBN before this.You guessed it,as an employee i can study free of charge here but you still find people who have worked for 20 years at these places but have made no effort to further themselves academically.This applies accross racial divides.As a young person when you try to introduce change these people will tell you "i have done this for 20 years" or "your predecesor had no problem with this".In my DBN institution over n above "free education",upon graduation you will get a once off small payment as an incentive to study but still people are not using the opportunity available hence they do the same job for 30 yrs.I think in your case surely you can afford something at Technikon,easy payments.Also plz look at the Graduate schools of business for those short courses,very useful and affordable and check the learning objectives as well not to just study for the sake of it.

desire 6/30/2009 10:29:04 AM
Thanks Tamara for this story, long overdue. Who said that if you don't have a degree you cannot think? i find that a lot of people with degrees are so useless it's not funny.NOT EVERYONE. i am very good at what i i do, very professional and can easily be an asset to any company, however, because i don't have a degree, i am suddenly dumb and unemployable. i am sure the people who make these rules are the ones that went through gruelling exams at varsity just to do what a person without a degree can do and now they are envious because we did not have to go to varsity to learn how to think.

L 6/30/2009 10:41:25 AM
I am busy with my masters degree and I still can't find work in the related field. Having a degree does not guarantee employment!

Anonymous 6/30/2009 10:41:26 AM
Working in the recruitment industry, I know of so many SA people of both races who are so qualified and hard working, but they are not employed because Zimbabweans are willing to work for much lesser than the SA market related salary. The bigger corporates e.g. ABSA, Std Bank, MTN, SABC are the worst. I will prefer that my opinion be distinguished from being xenophobic, as I feel it is the reality! I am amazed at how discriminating AA/ BEE is, most companies in their bid to fulfill the levels of their BEE certificate, have gone all out to hire African foreigners, especially Zims, for a quarter of what a market salary is. I think our government has just lost it, thats why we will always have xenophobic attacks!

Postcolonialist 6/30/2009 10:48:25 AM
On degrees - a degree (undergraduate) proves that you have at least half a brain and are capable of a modicum of unsupervised, independent work and thought. Graduate (and here I address Masters and Phd - Hons is a bit of a red-herring/stepping stone) degrees are a more concrete indication of higher levels of POTENTIAL for initiative/independence/etcetera.

For better or for worse, a degree is used as a semi-arbitrary filtering mechanism. I definitely want a qualified engineer to design the bridge I cross. But it matters not a Rabbit's Unlucky Foot whether or not the Creative Director at an Ad Agency has a degree ... there, it really is down to ability and track record.

Rant rant rant ...

Sinudeity @Anonymous 6/30/2009 10:49:25 AM
Yeah, BEE is supposed to take power back from the rich white capitalists, when in fact, it only hurts the everyday people, graduating students etc. BEE is racist, and discriminates. Pity all those that fought hard against apartheid, to end discrimination, dont see this.

CTheB 6/30/2009 11:08:29 AM
My quick assessment - not enough information to come to a conclusion. Having many years of experience is not necessarily enough if the positions one applies for are totally outside all that experience, for example. The same goes for diverse achievements since they may be achievements that no one knows how to value. I'm not saying that you're incompetent or that your achievements and experience are worthless, but they're possibly far harder to determine a value for than a degree (though values of degrees are often skewed). Experience, etc. (much like degrees) don't necessarily qualify someone for a job - there may be a good reason a degree is required. I've seen examples of people with degrees being hopelessly incompetent and I've seen people with years of experience (in the job they were employed for at the time) being hopelessly incompetent. I think companies err on the side of hiring people with degrees because they believe that those people have shown an ability to learn and/or have specific knowledge (though they may simply have shown an ability to pass exams). Often it seems to be pretty much any degree, though. That may simply be my experience due to the fact that I've never held a job that's related to the degree I have and have held jobs at companies that insist on degrees I don't have. Evidently the employers were more interested in the fact that I'd managed to obtain a degree that's difficult to get. Also, as pointed out, not all industries suffer equally from the brain-drain.

Mzi 6/30/2009 11:09:56 AM
BEE and AA racist? give us a break, I bet all who are saying that were born in the 90s. The mandate of AA is yet to be achieved, BEE mandate is getting there (we still have some arrogant companies in denial). BEE and AA is still a good idea, the implementation processes got out of hand but there still lot of ills that needs to be reversed. It is very embarassing to hear that there are only three black CEO in the JSE. It is still embarassing for qualified black engineers to be led by someone who has a std 5 and still having the old SA flag in his office. I will be satisfied when I see qualified black managers taking over in big corporate companies and be allowed to grow.

The Solution again! 6/30/2009 11:10:52 AM
@ Juan: Hypocrite, damn Hypocrite. "The ANC gvt is messing up because they are n't educated, they are farm boys" etc, now its a young poppie from Klerksdorp or where ever, then skills are more important than education?? well by your standards, then Jacob Zuma who has been a Public Officer bearer since the dawn of democracy is quite "skilled" to be the President after all aint he? And you wonder what racism is and who is still racist today, go look in the mirror.

Mike 6/30/2009 11:15:40 AM
Not sure I agree with this. I have plenty of friends without degrees who are climbing the corporate ladder very successfully due to hard work and a bit of initiative. It doesn't seem to be holding them back at all. I, on the other hand, have a BCOM degree from UCT yet it never really seems to count for much. Bottom line is whether or not I'm capable of filling the job requirements.

Mfanafuthi 6/30/2009 11:17:34 AM
@Mzi-I absolutely agree with you,i'm also a product of a study loan which i'm repaying right now for my first degree.Tamara must find out about RPL(Recognition of prior learning)at Unisa or any other institutn,i had mates at Graduate school of Business who didn't have degrees but work experience, you have to undergo some tests which i'm sure you will easily pass being an above average IQ'ed person as you claim.
I disagree with the opinion that experienced people should be preferred over non-degreed persons.I would take a degreed person with 3-5 years exp than ten yrs.Higher education to me as an employer means more flexibility and someone who is willing to accept change and introduce change than a person who has done nothing for a long time,doing the same thing No promotion,no movement.In an interview i would want to know why,what have you done to move or improve your position.I doubt if AA EE or BEE has barred anyone from furthering themselves academically,this i'm talking accross races.EE means preferring black over others where academic,experiences are equal or can be accepted as equal where there are DEFICIENCIES IN DEMOGRAPHIC REPRESENTATIONS.
The latter is important to dismiss arguments that EE/BEE is here to do away with other race groups or take their jobs away.No.

Trevor Gothan 6/30/2009 11:18:25 AM
A degree is supposed to teach one to think more critically and opens a door to a suitable job. Up to you to learn that job once there! It no guarantee that you will be able to do it well. In Hebrew a nudnik is an idiot and a phudnik is a nudik with a PhD. I have encountered many of both in my travels!!

VG 6/30/2009 11:21:15 AM
Tamara, in general, a degree or other qualification is the only independently verifiable indicator of your ability to do your job. Some people openly lie on CV's, claiming to have experience that they don't have and will choose as references only people that they know will give a flattering account of them, ignoring the instances where they may have fallen short.

Also, it comes down to simple demand & suuply: if you were in an industry that was really in need of the skills you have, it's incomprehensible that you are continually overlooked. (PS ignore all the BEE moaners, as a woman you qualify as an AA candidate), so there must be another reason why you in particular are struggling to find employment.

Good luck!

Dan 6/30/2009 11:21:39 AM
haha, funny article. So I take it that you can perform open heart surgery or get a rocket into space!! Sometimes one does need a degree to do certain jobs. Also, that above average IQ does not mean much, how about some part-time studies while you work at the Spur?? You sometimes have to INVEST in your future!!

Anonymous 6/30/2009 11:30:28 AM
Don't underestimate the importance of a university degree. I just completed my PhD and took up my first job ever, for which i didn't even have to apply. At work I find myself highly regarded by my colleagues for my achievement, even though I have no work experience. This is because everybody around me understands that its just a matter of time before I gain the necessary experience!!

GeePMB 6/30/2009 11:33:00 AM
Come and work in my environment, use your own brainpower, drive and IQ and earn your own income...

Glock 22 c 6/30/2009 11:40:21 AM
Mzi , you seem to have a good idea of where you want the black's to be. So please inform us as to where you want the white people in SA to be ? Let me try and get your bigger picture here

Cynical 6/30/2009 11:45:28 AM
You hit the nail on the head when you questioned whether the brain drain is that much of a problem. From my observations, it clearly is not. It gets mentioned in the media a lot and is TALKED about just as much, but companies in this country do not exactly fall over themselves to attract good talent, recession or no recession. Bottom line is that SA sucks on the career front. When I lived in the UK I secured one contract after the next, no problem, and found employers to be far more pragmatic in their recruitment processes with far less of the sh*t that one has to be put up with in SA.

Sinudeity @Mfanafuthi 6/30/2009 11:45:53 AM
As yourself, being a black dude, most likely an ANC supporter, I wount take YOUR opinions regarding BEE/AA seriously. You just cant see the other side of the coin. Its racist, and its discrimination. Do you agree/disagree? Furthermore, BEE/AA is ABUSED, and has been for YEARS. Ask Matthew Phosa, ask Mbeki's brother, all outspoken critics of the implementation of BEE.

AJ 6/30/2009 11:57:00 AM
Doctors, Engineers = give me degrees. IT, marketing, advertising, publishing, blah blah = NO REQUIRED. It is a good benchmark if you have one, but experience is enough here.

Sooth 6/30/2009 11:59:25 AM
to The Solution, you are completely missing the point. Some jobs you dont need a degree to do, yet some people who have degrees cant do this job. Think a bit before being a smart ass. She does not want to be a doctor, maybe just admin clerk, but the company is looking for someone with a suitable career, when her previous experience and intelect would do just fine.

AJ @Mzi 6/30/2009 11:59:30 AM
Mzi for successfull AA/BEE I am not concerned about the 50 jobs leading the companies on JSE top 50 - it is the millions of others that need work. That will solve SA's problems. When they appoint a black guy as CEO of Firstrand, belive me 300 00o others dont suddenly feel FULL. Ignore the CEO level, that changes NOTHING.

blondie 6/30/2009 12:00:00 PM
the last time i checked, you still needed a degree to work in the uk! and probably the rest of the world

SM 6/30/2009 12:09:01 PM
It has nothing to do with experience and/or education. SA has come to the stage where it is purely skin colour that matters. Lack of or too much experience is just excuses. Try and be white with 20+ years of experience and 2 masters degrees and get a job. (Apart from temporary consulting jobs, your CV is not even read. Yet the add appear week after week for the same position. I am going to be called a racist, but who cares when FACTS are facts. Tamara, join the brain drain, at least you have a fighting chance.

SM 6/30/2009 12:21:14 PM
Yes degrees and experience are both important. The real question is how do you get those, irrespective of your background. You get it from teachers in both academic and commercial environments. If a teacher has NO life expereience and NO formal schooling experience how does that teacher teach you. And no Mzi, getting rid of experienced people (yes white) does not enhance the chances of the potential brilliant black CEO. It is far better to hold onto the experience and absorb it.

Brenda 6/30/2009 12:26:02 PM
Tamara...I whole heartedly agree with you!! Companies are asking for the HIGHLY qualified but when it gets down to doing the job, it's the experience that counts!! & the person who is able to do the JOB!

Diego 6/30/2009 12:26:23 PM
Is anything stopping you from enrolling at Unisa to get your degree? The fees are affordable and you can pretty much set your own pace (within reason). This is my 5th year of study with Unisa and I hope to write my final exam in November. It wasn't easy juggling a family, a household and a demanding senior position, but the sacrifices will all have been worth it! Empower yourself and stop whining!

Donald 6/30/2009 12:34:21 PM
This is a highly sensitive topic. I symapthise with Tamara as it is unfortunate that many intelligent people have not had the opportunity to gain a tertiary eductaion. However the issue is not necessarily about intelligence, or the lack thereof. A tertiary education certainly hones the mind and, for the most part, unlocks in an individual a certain way of thinking which gives them the edge in the corporate environment. One would not be expected to employ an intelligent person but who hasn't had a secondary education as we realise that each level of education gives rise to a certain mindset - and for those without a degree that mindset is often lacking. I am not intending to be judgemental but in my 30 years of work I have experienced this time and time again.

Opposite is also .... 6/30/2009 12:39:43 PM
Tamara the opposite also holds water. You have people in management position that does not have a degree. Which can't do the work was put there by their friends, but let the graduates which are under them do their work for them. They are not going to employ graduates above them.These companies are usually the ones that goes under, because most of these employees can't think out of the box. Go and do atleast a diploma for you and your companies shake. Good luck

SP 6/30/2009 12:43:17 PM
I started out on the factory floor working shifts. Realised I do not want to do that forever and started studying part time - UNISA, Technisa, etc. Now have various degrees and diplomas and have reasonably senior management position. This would NOT have been possible without the studies. It is all about a trade off. You trade partying with your friends after work with studying. Then while they are still stuck in the Spur job you move on to better things. Even if you are a white male...

Snake Dr. 6/30/2009 12:44:29 PM
Guys, why are you white people attacking AA so much. It just goes to show that this country is far from real integration of all living in it. I'm black + smart and have been outclassing my white counterparts from school level to varsity level. Yes, varsity level. Then when I'm appointed I should be attacked for the colour of my skin even if I'm competent. Joh, mara makgowa a bora.

Gogga 6/30/2009 12:47:14 PM
I could not agree more.. I feel what you say and it is currently happening to me.

Russ 6/30/2009 12:49:18 PM
I have come across countless people that boast degrees and in the workplace they are absolutely useless. The converse is also true where non-degreed people very often turn out to be star performers by just having the right experience for the job. Tamara's article is not referring to essential study jobs such as doctors and lawyers. Her experience is in the commercial sector. It is rife there and completely stupid and short-sighted.

SFI 6/30/2009 12:59:28 PM
I agree with Donald and Diego - what's stopping you form doing a degree. I would not feel comfortable if my CEO has not studied at all - irrespective of how intelligent he is - when you reach a certain lvel you can afford to study. Very senior mgt should not be without degrees, irrespective of experience as it negates the purpose of education in the first place. Why complete Matric then - all you need to do is be able to read (like in the old days Std 6 - 8 level education)and get a high position.

francois 6/30/2009 1:00:15 PM
20 years ago my friends laughed atmy because i so boring to sit behind books every week end while life was a big fat party for them. life is like that . you get out what you put in

Lou 6/30/2009 1:00:45 PM
I'm qualified, employed at a corporate, white but I'm not about to ditch EE. Affirmative Action might not be the most ideal way to get to EE but that is another debate. As we speak I'm plotting my escape from the Corporate world. SA companies have little understanding of orgnisational learning, fail to translate strategy into action, and generally get away with being incompetent because competition struggle to enter the market.

Geanann 6/30/2009 1:04:21 PM
@Snake Dr. No person in his right mind will reject anyone that is competent and experienced in his field. No white person with half a brain has any problems with such a person. There are also many qualified, competent and experienced black people around.

The problem, and although people tacitly admit it, is insufficiently qualified, incompetent and inexperienced people appointed in positions ahead of better people based on colour.

The mismanagement in Home Affairs, admitted by their DG is largely as a result of his managers, largely black and AA apointments.

ESKOM, once we were faced by a catastrophe, admitted that AA resulted in the loss of skills because of AA.

Why do you think white "consultants" are smiling all the way to the bank.

@ Opposite is also 6/30/2009 1:04:57 PM
I have to agree with you. I am a CA and its endemic in large listed corporates, esp since most of the senior management is non CA and have no intention of going anywhere.
So yes, the opposite holds true and is far more perverse in my view. Also, the pts you make about their level of thinking is absolutely spot on. To summarise: to those who are so hung up on EXPERIENCE - will you let a theatre nurse with 20 yrs experience perform a heart op on YOU or your family!!!!

Jon 6/30/2009 1:07:49 PM
A basic summary - A degree is simply the basis for forming a decision on wether a person will be able to do a job. ie they took the time and effort to complete the degree which shows a level of commitment as well as academic ability to peform. If you've been doing a job for 3-5 years, or even less you will have the ability and means to further your studies. It takes a litte bit of effort and commitment on your part but is well worth the few R1000 per year

EH???? 6/30/2009 1:08:28 PM
I never had money to go to University or Technicon when I left school, I left in Std 9, to support my disabled parents, found a job and worked my way up wherever I went. I now have a degree, because I worked for it, and I payed for it MYSELF, there is such a thing as correspondence you know. Stop complaining, get off your arse and do something, don't always expect things to come to you just because you have the "knowledge, skill or experience". If you want something go get it, do whatever it takes. You are never to old to get what you want, all it takes is hard work and time.

same boat 6/30/2009 1:16:52 PM
I just forked out 7grand for a certificate in Business management because of the same problem.I couldnt get a study loan- no collatoral, and no access to bursaries because first I was too brown then I was too brown. Its taken alot of hard work and then the woman who is in the job I am more than qualified to do experiencewise (but I have no degree) phones me to find out how to do her job? And if I know of a masters program she can join with company funds. I'm also doing the unisa applications- but those also cost money and I have kids to feed. One day at a time and my high IQ and determination will finally get me into management. we have to work hard and smart. results will always follow.

Jack 6/30/2009 1:17:30 PM
There's an endless number of reasons ... over/under qualified, the right church also the right group within the church, experience, ... and of course colour and culture. The list is endless.


Punani 6/30/2009 1:20:04 PM
Jacob Zuma is a cattle herder with std 3 education. His side kick is Julius Malema with a pathetic matric certificate and no real time experience besides hate speech at political rallies. These guys are allowed to run the economic powerhouse of Africa. Wake up people! You don't need to be qualified, degreed or experienced. You just need to be affiliated to a corrupt political party and you can scoop the cream for the rest of your life. The more incompetent you are, the better your chances! Why do it the hard way? How many of our MEC's and high office bearers have any form of qualification or relevant experience?

No Degree 6/30/2009 1:20:06 PM
I've just turned 30, no dagree(10 years exp) and earn R100 000 a month...Contract in IT... You don't have to have a degree to make money.......

Glock 22 c 6/30/2009 1:20:37 PM
yeah thought so the anc die hearts here can never answer a question because they never have an answer besides its apartheid fault damn morons with degree's

wanabe CA 6/30/2009 1:26:14 PM
Basically even if you can do the job what certificate do you have that can validate that? We buy goods that have SABS stamp of approval and the same applies to employment

Bonny 6/30/2009 1:27:03 PM
@snake dr. Unfortunately AA is a double edged sword. People assume that you got ahead due to your skin colour and not your ability. The same is true of appointments based on gender equality..so basically AA appointments and women have to work harder to prove themselves..
Would be much more fair to all if AA and gender equality were scrapped. Then we WOULD all be equal.

CTheB 6/30/2009 1:46:27 PM
@Brenda - that simply isn't always true. Plenty of people with experience are not competent, just as plenty of people with degrees are not competent. Being experienced doesn't equate to being able to do a job. Assuming that having a degree will net a job is making the same mistake, just from a different angle.

007boer 6/30/2009 1:50:30 PM
My only advice is to get into a field where you can build up a portfolio of previous projects to back up your claims in the absence of formal education. The first industries that come to mind are Software development, IT, graphic design and other technical fields. Software development and graphic design are great because you can produce proof on demand. I am a product of such a strategy. I have no tertiary qualification, yet I work as a mid-level programmer at a seriously major company in SA. All it takes is some people skills and a solid portfolio. Hard luck for the financial and engineering sectors though.

BN 6/30/2009 1:52:17 PM
I am a recruiter/headhunter and run my own consultancy. I operate mostly in the financial and IT sectors. Based on my experience I can confirm that SA companies are generally academic snobs. I have clients that won't even employ people who studied at technikons. Only certain universities will suffice.

Obviously, certain specialist fields require specialised skills - CA's, CFA's, etc. But there are many areas where someone who is QBE (qualified by experience) could flourish, yet they are overlooked. This is where we do differ from places like the UK. The reason why SA employers have such high academic standards...Employment Equity. There are fewer opportunities for non-EE candidates to apply for these days. Simple. So everyone upskills in order to further their cause and beat the competition (i.e.Tamara). I NEVER get to place candidates without degrees and almost never without Honours degrees. It's Demand vs Supply. We have a reduced demand for non-EE skills and an oversupply of non-EE candidates. This creates huge competition. Not to upskill would be severly detrimental to your career prospects Tamara. Study now!

By the way, SA doesn't have skills shortages in finance and IT as we read about all the time in the papers. But we do have a shortage of EE professionals. Most of my clients rarely employ non-EE staff. And these companies are the SA's banks, IT firms and insurance giants, etc. Tip for non-EE job seekers - seek work with small consultancies or start your own business. I did...and I love it!

T. 6/30/2009 1:54:41 PM
A degree only means you know how to attend university and write exams. It isn't worth the paper it's printed on. The companies that insist on degrees from staff are just perpetuating the "class-distinction", spurious as it is, and are no different to the little thugs (and their parents) who insist that initiation in schools is normal and acceptable. It's an old-boys club of the worst kind.

E 6/30/2009 1:59:37 PM
Yeah I'm getting really tired of people without degrees constantly complaining about people with degrees. We are in fact not useless, and we did in fact do the hard work required to get the degree. Please let it go.

@No Degree 6/30/2009 2:01:26 PM
Really? You must be very good at what you do then.

Fossil 6/30/2009 2:04:40 PM
As a qualified SA lawyer working in the UK for 2 years I have seen that the companies here go for experience above qualification but if you have 2 applicants for a job and the only thing separating them is a degree... doesn’t take rocket science to figure out who will get the job. Like the above comments, it’s a filtering mechanism that’s what it is that’s what it is. Because I am heading back to my beloved country I wonder how my international experience will be interpreted by companies…

kwk 6/30/2009 2:06:00 PM
hi Tamara.I'm sure you do have an above average IQ.However IQ cannot be legally checked by prospective employers, while having a degree can.My advice is enroll at UNISA now and get that piece of paper behind you.Good luck.

SimonP 6/30/2009 2:08:40 PM
@Mzi, BEE/AA is designed to empower the previously disadnantaged ie blacks only. How can you say it is not racist if it only applies to black people? As for replacing the heads of the biggest 50 companies with quota fillers, those 50 companies would soon be the smakkest 50. What you need to understand is shareholders put the best person for the job in so as to maximise company profits not to fulfill some pipe dream of the deluded masses.

IQ is just a number 6/30/2009 2:16:14 PM
I've worked for several large corporate companies. Nobody ever asked me if I had a degree, it was just assumed that I did. Now I run my own company and still don't have a degree. It's about using your brains and not just talking about them.

kwk 6/30/2009 2:16:39 PM
UNISA is really not that expensive. Once you start studying you can put "studying towards.." on your cv, which already looks a lot better than "Matriculated at .. (and still bitching because life is unfair to me)"

T 6/30/2009 2:25:12 PM
It seems there is an underlying factor to the criticism of AA and BEE, The AA/BEE candidates coming through the ranks have a degree, now the rhetoric here seems to be "lets find another way to frustrate them, we told them to get an education they did it, now they need experience let's with hold that and label them incompetent" what a shame. Your 30 year exprience AA contractor knows more about structures than you do did you give him the same concession you now ask for, did you look only at his ability to do the work not his colour and not his education? you didn't. AA/BEE is not designed to frustrate you it's to level the playing field, so go get a degree and compete with AA candidates, I will hire you over them if you have experience to go with it and you will train them to be like you and you will be recognised and rewarded for it. Stop bitching and make this country work!!!

Anonymous 6/30/2009 2:28:39 PM
Being an expat, I can safely tell you that you need a degree even when not in SA. Its unfair to those who take the time to study and acquire a degree to have someone without a degree have a position similar too or over theirs. I can agree with the harsh reality in SA you do find politicians who have no degree but hold high positions however in the end its not about the country or companies that hire you...its a question of your academic qualification as an acquired learned and bred skill in a true sense.We can all do away with school and university, take an IQ test that places us at above average, work for ten years and then want a senior position that your colleague actually planned and studied for at a price of 4 years in addition to you.

AQUANOX 6/30/2009 2:32:27 PM
@ The Solution, you are hilarious.

I am a highly skilled (3 degrees and 3 business partnerships with computer ERP companies like SAP), white male (management consultant) and I have been working in the UK for almost 8 years. I intended to return to SA in the next year or so. Waiting for my red passport, for those of you that know what I mean. Here is my take on this. FYI, I am engaged to a lovely SAFA lady who does not have a degree but she is highly skilled, she has tertiary education but not a degree. SA is more anal about having a degree compared to the UK and EU. In my opinion there are more opportunities for none-degree people here than there are in SA to start off with, but higher up the food chain it is a different story. SA has a culture of “unless you have a degree you are going to have problems getting ahead in life.” But don’t let this be your stumble block. This is where you need to get creative and start thinking lateral. I agree that having a degree is a good indication of a persons potential but not the B all and end all. In my opinion most degrees are useless in the real world but the lateral thinking that it instills is something that is more easily identifiable when one has a degree. I know many many smart people that don’t have a degree and are outclassing their school piers because they have been driven to prove themselves. I know a guy not even that smart, and he taking home over R3.5 Bar a year from a very basic business. The other thing worth considering is that in some cases professional degrees can suppress creativity. I typical example is a CA that is amazingly good at running a business finances but when it comes to his own personal circumstances in some cases , things don’t look too rosy. So my suggestion would be is to get creative and start thinking lateral. You don’t need a degree to do that.

Mfanafuthi 6/30/2009 2:33:54 PM
@Sinudeity-I don't know what a person that behaves like you is called but it would be a combination of a racist and something else.
Why do you have to start your argument by classifying me by race and political affiliations or belief? Having assumed all this about me you then conclude,NO FACTS.
I take it if i was White and DA you will take my opinions on EE/BEE seriously+agree with me,bcoz you look at race and political affiliation.
Also you quote those ANC guys,simply bcoz they oppose EE/BEE doesn't mean they are correct.You think a person is correct when they say what you want to hear,what a poof.
I can also assume like you that you are probably a young,uneducated DA-supporter who knows very little about SA-politics,economic dynamics,ill-informed and only gets pleasure from reading anti-ANC articles and conclude from that.Being white and DA doesn't make you better,lady.

Will 6/30/2009 2:41:02 PM
Funny thing, hypocrisy. One moment we're complaining about a prez who's not schooled, next we complain that we're being discriminated against for not having degrees. Point is in every profession there are standards to be upheld and there needs to be some sort of proof. Thus degrees and professional certifications have a very important role to fill. There are no such standard in politics, and you've never heard of a trustworthy politician, have you?
So yes to degrees and certifications. If you were that intent on being a professional, you'd find a way to fund studies. CA's and doctors and engineers became that through sacrifice and hard work, not through whining.

Martin 6/30/2009 2:42:27 PM
@snake dr. I understand and agree with you and that is why AA is the problem. Only when people are appointed based on skill level can there be true respect in the work place. The only way this country can move forward is if the best qualified candidates for the job gets it regardless of race or sex. Instead of working against each other we should work together to make it a better place for all.

saproudly 6/30/2009 2:54:01 PM
@GKT and your friends, i wish you closet racist could just walk around with tags cause during the day you are scared little rats in corners, but on the net your cowardly colors come out.If SA is so terrible to you, then JUST LEAVE, please, give me a shout and i'll drive and pay for your ticket out of here.
Your fathers messed up this country for centuries and now we are left to clean up this mess. The problem with your type of mentality is that you lack long term planning. Quick fixes to everything, i got news for you, the world is struggling too. Grass is brown everywhere.

saproudly 6/30/2009 3:00:26 PM
@Simon: Failure to understand or refusal to understand the necessity of BEE/AA is what is making this so hard for you. How can BEE be racist when it includes White women,Indians,Chinese,disable(black and white), etc? And white women are leading the pack in terms of beneficiaries of BEE/AA. The only people that are not in the quota are "white males". These are the people that have benefited for years and are now refusing to even try to understand the plan to balance what they messed up for centuries. Is it so hard to get it or are you just plain refusing to get it.

HS 6/30/2009 3:01:55 PM
It appears that everyone is focussing on experience vs. education and everyone is overlooking the personality factor. I've seen it on numerous occasions where the brilliantly qualified person is overlooked for a promotion due to their know-it-all attituede, or the experienced person is overlooked due to their sense of entitlement

SimonP 6/30/2009 3:11:57 PM
@Mfanafuthi...well tell us, are you a black ANC supporter? If you are then Sinudeity was right.

SM 6/30/2009 3:13:54 PM
@ Snake Dr. If you are competant why do you need AA / BEE. The whites are just saying appoint on merit and not skin colour.

Chris 6/30/2009 3:28:12 PM
The hard truth: life isn't fair, the world doesn't owe you anything and every country needs ditch-diggers. Do you want people who DID spend all the years and money earning their degree to stand back in favour of you, purely because of your superior intellect? One rarely use even 10% in the industry of what's been learnt at tertiary education (especially universities), but still there's a reason why employers want someone with a degree. It means you have the POTENTIAL to perform and persist. The fact that you don't have a degree, regardless of the cause, means that you have to make do with what you have. Live with it, or get a degree studying part-time and stop moaning.

SM 6/30/2009 3:36:22 PM
@saproudly. Since when does the B (stands for B-L-A-C-K) include White woman, Indians (most arrived after the whites), Chinese (same as Indians) and white disbled. What you are saying is unfounded racist thetoric. Get your facts straight. Is it that hard to get (admit) it or are you just refusing to do it???????????

Sinudeity @saproudly 6/30/2009 3:36:55 PM
Dude, apartheid ended almost 20 decades ago. The kids who are matriculating nowadays, did not feel the sting of apartheid. White and black. Why should they pay, for something that happened 20 years ago? What you are doing, is encouraging, more potentially skilled laborers to join the 'brain drain'. Its racist. Do you not understand that? BEE IS RACIST.

Sinudeity @Mfanafuthi 6/30/2009 4:04:32 PM
Anyways, Mfanafuthi, apologies, didnt want to drag your race and politics into this. My point with it was though, that you are naturally biast, with regards to BEE. Just like I am I guess. Im sure the apartheid masters, showed the same disregard to skin colour, like BEE, without picking up the natural biast. Apartheid/BEE is racist.

BN 6/30/2009 4:05:00 PM
@HS: Yes, personality is NB but remember, your personality doesn't come through (so to speak) on your CV or get you an interview. It might seal the deal in the end but experience and qualifications listed on a good CV is what will be reviewed first of all.

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