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Black

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News24 User

'Considering the statistics'

by Black
2009-07-09 08:00

I did it, I considered the statistics.

When Trevor Manuel made that comment about considering the statistics, what he was implying was that PDV has achieved a 75% win rate (12 of 16) as national coach and therefore should be considered a success. This in statistical terms is known as a "hypothesis".

Now at face value this is a fair hypothesis, but seeing as I had the misfortune of doing statistics in my Masters year at UCT, I would like to challenge Mr Manual's hypothesis and as he suggested: in fact, "consider the statistics".

I remember it being drilled into me that when one seeks a true statistical result one needs to eliminate outliers and any other data which may skew the final result. In fact I remember being taught the following approach to "considering the statistics".

Step 1: Define the sample population - easy, PDV has coached sixteen test matches

Step 2: Eliminate outliers - an outlier would be like when the Boks beat the Blacks in Dunedin last year, it happens so rarely that it is not a true reflection of our ability to win. Another outlier was when we beat the Wallabies by almost 50 points; again such a large result is so rare it represents an invalid reflection of our ability to beat the Wallabies. So when "considering the statistics" we must remove both these two results from the sample population leaving us 14 remaining results to be considered.

Step 3: Bring normality to the sample population - basically what this means is that if we only ever played against countries we are expected to beat (eg Italy) we would have a 100% win rate thus giving an inaccurate result of our ability. Thus to provide a more accurate result of our win rate we must eliminate all the "sure things" as these skew the final result as well. In brief the seven games we played against Northern Hemisphere opponents and Argentina in 2008 must be eliminated as the opponents were so poor that beating them was not a true reflection of our ability to win. This now leaves us with only seven remaining results in our sample population.

Step 4: Calculate the true statistical rate from the remaining sample population - the seven remaining results consist of the four 2008 tri-nations matches we lost and the three B&I Lions matches of which we won two. Therefore by "considering the statistics" we can deduce that PDV has won only two of the seven matches that represent a true reflection of his ability thereby giving us a true statistical win rate of 28.6% Further more by "considering the statistics" we can conclude that Mr Manual's hypothesis (Pieter de Villiers is a successful coach) is flawed as PDV in true statistical terms only has a 28.6% win rate.

So there I did it, I considered the statistics and PDV is still poor!

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Mike 7/9/2009 8:06:27 AM
Dude, get a life... Seriously.

Mitch 7/9/2009 8:07:19 AM
A brilliant article. Finally someone writing something that is logical and factual and purging all emotion..

VLS 7/9/2009 8:11:44 AM
I didn't get further than your elimination of "outliers". What a nonsensical article. Your very hypothesis is flawed. Get a life.

Chris G 7/9/2009 8:11:54 AM
THANK YOU!! Finally someone has pointed out that most of wins were against opponents that our 2nd side should've been able to beat. The acid test is always the tri-nations, which we finished stone last in. If PdV wants to impress me, I'd like to see a Tri-nations trophy in his cabinet.

T 7/9/2009 8:12:19 AM
Interesting,but i think your formula is flawed, because basically that would then put most bok coaches in the "bad coach" category. Lets first see how they do in the 3-nations then judge the man.

pattzo 7/9/2009 8:13:03 AM
this analysis is nonsense. total waste of out time

Robert 7/9/2009 8:13:54 AM
Would it not also be a fair call to consider points scored/conceded after making changes. Surely this is a good indication of a coaches ability to make a running impact?

Nice breakdown. Solid stats... Although I believe that 7 matches is still too short to gain any true reflection of anyone's ability. If that were the case Kallis wouldn't have played more than 7 tests. But I believe that after the tri-nations we'll have a much better sample by which to judge.

Please rework your stats then and we'll be justified in either congratulating or condemning the coach. :)

Oh... and Trevor mistaken?

SIHLE 7/9/2009 8:14:13 AM
your stats lecturer- his credibility is a stake here if this is what he taught you. you do have the basics but you apply them in the wrong way. yes outliers should not be considered however the games you choose as outliers make up very important statistical data. hence your whole analysis is fasle. your rejection of the null hypothesis is incorrect my brother go back to the books and try retify your mistake. well written piece though. thanks

vic 7/9/2009 8:14:37 AM
Mr Black - well done .. maybe this will help with the sobering process ! Can you maybe help us to calculate what % of words spoken by the individual made sense ..

Sello 7/9/2009 8:14:43 AM
This was clearly written by an excited student who has just discovered the fun of statistics at university and thinks the whole world doesn't know about it yet.By the same system of "considering statistics", i can say that you article, 90% of which is based on numeric thumbsuck calculations, lacks writing talent and analytical ability. Numbers will never make up for lack of writing flair, as much as words never make up for poor numeric skills. Therefore, statistically, your article is poor and seriously lacks opinion and substance.

anonymous 7/9/2009 8:16:55 AM
you guys just dont like PDV.Period!

Hilt Bakkies Boetha 7/9/2009 8:16:58 AM
Well said you good be my stats teacher anytime.

What about you inherit a winning team surely that has to play into the stats.

Len 7/9/2009 8:18:53 AM
What a bunch of non-sense. Cannot even believe this crap gets published. Who decides that the win in Dunedin and the walloping of Australia was a statistical anomaly? How the hell do you determine the true reflection of one's potential when you strip off all his wins?

NotTrue 7/9/2009 8:19:16 AM
Did you sleep through that statistics class. Your assessment of outliers are incorrect, as is your expectation of normality.

Brett 7/9/2009 8:20:31 AM
hahaha.....well written dude!

Johan 7/9/2009 8:20:50 AM
LOL

Morne 7/9/2009 8:20:58 AM
Not that it is up to me to criticize you or whoever taught you statistics but going on what you have written a couple of things do not make sense. Firstly if you deduce we must remove the Dunedin match because it is a rarity, and the Ellis Park match which we smashed the Aussies why not remove the All Blacks 19-0 win over the Boks at Newlands (first time we lost not scoring a point) and losing in Durban to the Aussies because an Aussie win in SA is so rare that they last achieved this in 2002 (?). Also, why remove the Wales victory from the Northern Hemisphere tour when Wales beat Australia? I find trying to manipulate statistics to still try and prove a point on why our coach is bad is actually far worse than some of the drivel some journalists come up with.

J 7/9/2009 8:21:22 AM
If we apply that to every coach.....do we need coaches and are they really successfull?

Morne 7/9/2009 8:22:07 AM
Oh and to add. Why remove Argentina? I am sure they beat France in the World Cup and actually ended up third there?

blitzi 7/9/2009 8:23:00 AM
flippen well said!!!!

Piet 7/9/2009 8:25:51 AM
Just goes to show, with stats you can even proof the earth is flat. I am not a big fan of Div, but doe the same analysis with Jake and Nick Mallet, and I am sure you will find simmularities. And disregarding Argentina (currently 6th on the rankings, but was at 3/4 after the world cup) is not correct. Nore disregarding France and Ireland and Wales and England. The rest, yes maybe. But these coutries mentioned above can on anyday beat any team in the world - look at the last world cup.
So, the question is what you want to see from the stats, and I will proof that to you without any statistical errors. Compare apples with apples before making statements like the ones above.

groovy 7/9/2009 8:27:06 AM
....and your point is what exactly?!?

Morne 7/9/2009 8:28:02 AM
Here are some statistics for you. Before 2004 South Africa's overall winning record in the Super 14 was 38%, with not one of our teams winning more than 50% of their matches. Similarly NZ achieved a record of 55% and Australia 48%. Since 2004 (under White) we improved by 1% to 39%. NZ improved by 2% to 59% and Aus slipped to 45%. The results also accurately compliment these statistics given SA only managed to win 2 tournaments in this competition which then tells us De Villiers is in fact no worse than any other coach before him given what he has to work with or the quality of the resources and structures at Super 14 level which is the level just below Bok rugby. It also proves South Africans are mostly delusional when it comes to how good we believe we are, and how good we actually are.

Apollo 7/9/2009 8:28:59 AM
LOL!
Seems to be true: Statistics is the art of torturing the data until it confesses.

Willie 7/9/2009 8:29:08 AM
LOL!!! Nicely done, if you look at the sharks in the super 14 they did brilliantly the first half of the series, and the second half with the same playes they collapesed? Was beginning form Dick Meur or Plumtree, I ask now, Was it White or De Villiers? WHite had nothing when he started, de Villiers got the World Champions... MMM?

Isgaaq 7/9/2009 8:29:16 AM
To Black!! You are an idiot! go do some work, you are idiod!

Anonymous 7/9/2009 8:29:25 AM
No one is going to say you are racist, why did you display your name as BLACK? Please get a life

nhla 7/9/2009 8:30:28 AM
Typical SA mentality of not appreciating success.You win yu critisize, you lose you critisize..if you win you applaud and if you lose you encourage..This poor article simply implies that the Boks are not good at all.Catch a wake up, they are the world champs and winning in Dunedin was to us loyal sports fans a classic victory.So if yu Mr Black ,have nothing to say jut dont say anything at all,people might then think better of you.

Big R 7/9/2009 8:30:57 AM
having studied Maths and Stats myself I can concur with you that your method is indeed correct. However, Countries produce teams that play against each other internationally and if they put two teams to play one another one has to conclude that this is the best that country can produce at that time. Therefore, we played some of the best teams in the world and whipped them thoroughly, or did we? By styding the games one can see that we barely won certain games(which is in your final sample) and therefore we are NOT the WC winning team of 2007. We also need to assume certain things about OUR team in your analysis. The SA team NEEDS to stay constant for this test to be accurate. So there are various other variables that need to be considered in conjunction to your test above. And the last is, is the team coaching themselves or is the coach doing the coaching. This is the main assumption one needs to make in this test above!

lies,damn lies and statistics 7/9/2009 8:31:10 AM
Ah yes, now the truth in statistics reveals the true 'success' of PDV as coach, well done Black, cant fault the logic

AC 7/9/2009 8:32:42 AM
Oh shit, Now you've done it. Wait for all the racist slurs that will now be flung your way. Good luck.

Chief 7/9/2009 8:33:44 AM
Typical. you can twist & turn but the fsct of the matter is that we played 16 Matches & won 12 which is 75%.

DJ 7/9/2009 8:34:26 AM
Dude, your hypothesis formulation is subject to researcher bias. I would summise that if your subjects were Heyneke Meyer or Frans Ludeke and you had the same data set your methodology and subsequent conclusion would be different.
I suggest you ask your money back from UCT.

bored 7/9/2009 8:34:57 AM
You obviously have no life sir. Please do us all a favour and calculate the same stats on Jake White in his first two years. What about some of the previous coaches? While I too am not completely pleased with Die Snor's coaching, give the man a chance, you gave Jake White four years to prove himself and he came through.

Willy Nilly 7/9/2009 8:35:59 AM
Having done stats myself, my Black friend, your analysis here sucks. You should ask for a refund on your tuition fees, you've obviously been miseducated. Good grief, you went all the way to Masters level still but come with such a crappy piece of analysis. Using the same approach you used, should we then say that the Boks are not real champions since they did not play the All Blacks in the world cup.

LVN 7/9/2009 8:36:11 AM
Ha Ha Ha! What a man!

Anon 7/9/2009 8:36:14 AM
Fact is Snorre took over a well-oiled well performing team and is still riding on that legacy. The problem comes in when the core of the team leaves. Its like buying a very good second hand vehicle, driving it, but not maintaining it. You can take the credit in the beginning, but if you do not maintain (coach) it properly, it will break down, just a matter of time.

BioHzrd 7/9/2009 8:38:20 AM
Look, I'm not a big fan of PdV but as a scientist with a PhD, I'm not a big fan of messing around with my sample population like you have. To be fair, maybe there are other data or variable other than games won for which you can measure a coaches perfrmancs - eg. how many press conferences has PdV conducted with maturity and humility?

observer 7/9/2009 8:38:47 AM
interesting how you only eliminate the wins and not the loses

Bollie 7/9/2009 8:39:17 AM
Makes a lot of sense, but it was not necessary for all the calculations to determine that Pdv is a fraud. How do we rectify this before the odds look even worse, and believe me they will.

IandI 7/9/2009 8:39:42 AM
Lies and statistics! Sound exactly like the crime stats form the goverment. Give me some stats and I will use them to my advantage.E.g the majority of some Africans do not support the ANC(only those who were illegible to vote and did vote for the ANC ) The majority of the population di dnot vote for the ANC or were not illegible to vote). See what I mean?

Carl Muller 7/9/2009 8:40:32 AM
As Naas said!
Look at the scoreboard!!!
That is all that counts.
Are you a stupid ignoramus.

YUP 7/9/2009 8:42:18 AM
Agreed! PDV is a poor Coach... It will take another Tri Nations Loss to prove that... (Again) But Hey! Miracles do happen, so here's a hoping!

marcel 7/9/2009 8:43:59 AM
You're kidding, right? This is surely a joke to get responses?

GKT Insight 7/9/2009 8:44:01 AM
A much better use of the numbers, where context has been provided!

Nando 7/9/2009 8:44:03 AM
gr8 article, i think your right on the money, even if we a gracious to give him the outliers it only bolsters him to 44%. It would be interesting to compare this team to previous World Champion teams 2 years down the road(with the exception of England as their team went straight to the retirement village after their victory). PDV has been dissapointing. I think our inability to secure possession is gonna cost us dearly in the 3Ntns, and PDV's game decisions have magnified his lack of depth. The Boks team on paper, should be favored to win any game, against anyone, at any venue. Isn't that what you would expect from World Champions?

bokbal 7/9/2009 8:44:12 AM
Good article. however, I don't need statistics to tell me that P Diddy is a bad coach. Oregan Hoskins warned us from the start that he mostly got the job because he is not white.

cwf 7/9/2009 8:46:05 AM
Clever article. Maybe done with a dose of 'tongue in cheek' but it does make a very valid point. However, as the de Villiers supporters will quickly point out, you will need to do the same for White if you wish to be truly objective. Nevertheless, you are quite possibly 100% correct. Then again, if I define the sample poluation and eliminate the outliers that might change!!

Paul Green 7/9/2009 8:46:31 AM
Black, you raise a few interesting points. But as you well know, the old saying of there being "lies, damned lies and statistics", still holds true. You're guilty of doing the very thing Manuel has done, which is viewing something in isolation. Your exercise will only become meaningful if you compare De Villier's stats with others. How about doing the above with Jake White, Henry and Deans... Look forward to your response.

MArk Hyslop 7/9/2009 8:46:44 AM
Not sure who taught you statistics or if were ever in any honors year for anything as all of your assumptions are wrong and the techniques you are talking about form part of high school biology when measuring animal population sizes.

Quantitative methods for decision making (statistics used to make decisions) is based on the premise of removing subjectivity (i.e. using all the data) you cannot simply remove data points because you “feel” they are funny. You are then skewing the results with your subjectivity or bias.

Therefore your analysis is incorrect and perhaps, you should stop trying to sound clever. You obviously did not complete any statistics courses past high school. As the more data points you have the better. In your silly example the results are actually skewed in a manner that would reflect badly on a coach. Instead of playing against all the rugby playing nations (where the springboks win ration would be substantially higher) we only play against the best, meaning that the average winning ration is dragged down by the level of competition.


Scientific 7/9/2009 8:46:45 AM
Now apply the same analysis also to the previous coaches and use your 'outliners' extensively!

jan 7/9/2009 8:47:19 AM
brilliant article, I agree 100%, coach div sucks!

John 7/9/2009 8:48:48 AM
Yes but Manual says we are not in a recession even though there is a negative growth rate. How does he figure that? As for P Divvy a commentator once said of a pro golfer in a slump "he need not worry he has a million in the bank. His father gave him 3 million to start" P Divvy's true test will come in developing the new generation of Boks because the side he inherited will not last forever.

NicNam 7/9/2009 8:49:24 AM
Absolutely fantastic and so true. Maybe we should also keep in mind that other coaches started with teams in bad shape, while PDV inherited a world cup winning team.

Deano 7/9/2009 8:50:03 AM
thats funny! i agree with the sure things being removed BUT when we played the northern hemisphere against wales, ireland and england i believe of which we won all 3 you need to add them to the 7 making 10. so infact its a win ratio 5 out 10 making 50%. You cant consider those three teams a a sure things after we were beaten by them merely 2 seasons ago.. wals were the current 6 nations champions, england had a record score against SA a mere 3 seasons ago and Ireland beat us in 2006. I agree with the rest though... use the statistics...

Mare 7/9/2009 8:50:27 AM
Good one.
How would your theory apply to Jake White and the previous coaches? Then you can rank the coaches accordingly. I would hazard a guess and say that ALL the coaches are in that statistical bracket.

Mark V 7/9/2009 8:50:55 AM
In this instance it seems that that statistical information is directly linked to the opportunity to be represented against what is deemed a "statistically worthy" matches. Bring the opprtunity equasion into consideration and the scale will tip again. Figures can and are manipulated to stisfy the audience.

Mike 7/9/2009 8:51:12 AM
NH teams inherently poor? England at Twickenham easy? Argentina, ranked 4th in the world, poor? Dude, you might know stats but you sure don't know rugby.

Lexus 7/9/2009 8:51:17 AM
Stats don't lie, and at last we know how succesful "Snorre" is with coaching the boks. And clearly he is not doing to well! Can we maybe do some stats on the ridiculous things he says in the media?

ndips 7/9/2009 8:51:23 AM
Get over yourself Black, i will take a special person to call for PDV's head and that actualy happens, not you (its not you sorry)

Dawie 7/9/2009 8:51:39 AM
Well said. Take away 10% for blowing his mouth off he failed by an even greater margin. His selections is a mistery and his so called game plan is a non entity. How much of the current success of the team goes to the foundation Jake White has put in place. Which of PDivvy's boys has shown great impact? January perhaps, what about Rose and even the fact that we do not know what a real centre combination is in this country anymore.

Robert Ndungane 7/9/2009 8:53:25 AM
Your comments on outliers is absolutely correct. I think we should however compare Pdv to other coahes using either a) a independent t-test or b) ANOVA.

frank 7/9/2009 8:53:43 AM
what a crock of nonsense! please ask your money back from UCT! you are humiliating a great academic institution with your drivel!
This is the reason why statisticians are nothing other than doctors of spin, working the physical data over until the results suite the point they want to make. PDV= loose mouthed fodder canon. Fact.
Winning 12/ 16 test matches. Fact.

Llewellyn 7/9/2009 8:55:02 AM
By using statistics, one can get the view YOU want, especially by eliminating, or finding reasons to eliminate results that would not suit YOUR outcome. Funny how we as supporters find reasons to discredit OUR teams and coaches.

Buks 7/9/2009 8:57:23 AM
LOL, nice one!

Cape Town Kid 7/9/2009 8:57:54 AM
WHAT ABOUT ASSESSING HIS PERFORMANCE AGAINST THE PERFORMANCES OF ALL THE COACHES THROUGHOUT THE WORLD? WHY ARE WHITES IN GENERAL ON A CAMPAIGN TRAIL TO DISCREDIT THE SPRINGBOK COACH? THIS IS BAD FOR THE MORALE OF PLAYERS AND STAFF OF THE NATIONAL TEAM SOME OF WHOM COMES FROM YOU! YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO DAMN THEM AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY, BUT STILL INSIST THEY WIN(?) WTF...IS WRONG WITH YOU PPL?

GeePMB 7/9/2009 8:58:02 AM
Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear... Black.. you have opened up a can of worms, prepare to be crucified in a million ways by the scribes to these comments pages. Statisticly you will have those who agree, those who don't and those who will play the race card.. Tsk Tsk..

Rogue Trooper 7/9/2009 8:58:07 AM
My experience with stats and I use them everyday in the form of demographic studies is that statistically stats are flawed and can generally be manipulated to support a preferred outcome as can be seen by the crime stats. That said I agree in large with the premise of this article in that Trevor Manuals utterances are unfounded and myopic which is not uncommon from ANC cadres when defending their ilk. I consider PdV to be part of the ANC ilk as he does not take ctiticism well, he openly supported the ANC during the election campaign and generally when he opens his mouth it's a PR disaster. I believe that PdV will be tested and measured during the Tri-Nations as he has now had a year to impress his style of play on the Boks and the result will be tested against the other 2 power houses of world Rugby, the Lions were good but would have been crucified by the All Blacks had they played them...crucified. I think that PdV obsesses to long on his perceived persecution by the rugby public and not enough on what he was appointed to do...coach the Boks. It's disaapointing to watch him constantly defend himself or should I say the feeling that he needs to defend himself because if he concentrated the efforts he deploys to 'defend'himself on coaching he could prove detractors wrong...or not. I think that he needs to work not only on his media skills but most certainly on his tactical skills cos those are seriously lacking. I don't think he studies the teams he is about to play properly if at all as his reactions to the opponents tactical play is dubious to say the least and his tactics are obvious and easily countered as is evident through our lack of tries in the last game and the near loss of the 1st test. I hope I'm wrong but I think PdV and the Boks are gonna get taught a lesson in rugby during the Tri-Nations.

Mollie Kruger 7/9/2009 8:59:49 AM
Well done Black!

Makes we worry that Trev has taken Statistics SA with him to the Prez's Office. Will we ever believe the numbers eminating from the Union Buildings ever??

Lester 7/9/2009 9:00:45 AM
I may not have a masters degree in statistics (I did a 2 half semester introduction to it for my Psychology major) however I have to disagree with your statistics. You can not exclude the win over Australia as an outlier. We are counting victories here not the margin of victory. Since readmission we have played Australia 17 times at home only conceding victory 3 times (once under De Villiers). Hardly an outlier. Likewise we have played England (a northern hemisphere nation) in England 11 times since readmission winning only four of these (once under De Villiers). Hardly a sure thing.

I won’t investigate any further as it appears your approach is anything but scientific. Taking a non scientific approach I would agree that De Villiers is underperforming given the quality of the current SA team compared to other sides in world rugby.

1eye 7/9/2009 9:01:03 AM
Lies Damn Lies and Statistics depends on how you look up a cows arse

Rob 7/9/2009 9:01:15 AM
Rob@Apollo Well said. LOL

PoleCat 7/9/2009 9:01:51 AM
Ag, give Black a break guys. If you have no sense of humour, don't make that his problem!

tshepo 7/9/2009 9:04:46 AM
it's a damn shame when one has to resort to his own version of "science" to try and negate the fact that PDV won 12 of 16 matches.

NicNam 7/9/2009 9:05:59 AM
Now all of a sudden everyone is a statistics expert?? The guy just confirmed what everone knows: PDV is a fake.

Mark V @ Apollo 7/9/2009 9:06:53 AM
That comment must be up for the comment of the week. BRILLIANT!

Phinda 7/9/2009 9:07:04 AM
Black, im am suprass that with your Masters, you can still write rubbish like this. The coach is judge based on the games he played and won, not as you put it eliminate what ever game you fill should be eliminated. Im sure at UCT they should have told you that there are lies, dammed lies and statistics. You reason lack any sense of logic beacuse you want to use statistics until it suit you logic whci is flowed. the coach and the team won the game, give him and his team credit for that, the fact that the guy always shoot him mouth when ever he talk is another story. Go get you change from UCT.

marcel 7/9/2009 9:08:22 AM
Sigh, dude, I know you meant this as a joke, but the number of people that take it seriously worries me. Do you know what a WUM is, Black? If not please look it up.

Richard 7/9/2009 9:10:19 AM
The worst article I have ever read on News24. I am not a fan of Divvy, and would like to see him go, but your reasoning is absolutely ridiculous!!!

1eye 7/9/2009 9:11:29 AM
The point being whatever way you look it still going to be a cows arse or in this case a very average coach at this point in time

Hero Nakamura 7/9/2009 9:17:57 AM
12 out of 16 = 75% Period! I didn't have to tap into my UCT degree for that! Who is the fool now?

colin 7/9/2009 9:17:58 AM
This type of crusifiction of our national coach was not even bestowed on Carl du Plesies and he actually deserved it - he was a bad coach.

doug 7/9/2009 9:18:45 AM
83.7% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Dewd 7/9/2009 9:20:18 AM
Well done. He just took the facts and placed it in a more logical way. The other teams where more easy and in my opinion the senior players still carry the positive training from Jake White and also helping the younger players along...

frank 7/9/2009 9:21:03 AM
You’re a nerd...you don’t get out enough. Maybe you should also be judged on some kind of self styled statistical formula...you’re a disgrace to your profession! And please can you tell me what qualifies you to determine these variables? Don’t you think your being disrespectful to the teams we have beaten since Pdiv has coached the boks? Are you suggesting that victories against the All Blacks and Ausies are due to some mathematical interval?..now you’re not just disrespecting the All Blacks, Ausies, Lions and all others who have played against us you’re discrediting the game as well. Every rugby player who represents their country gives their absolute all and on the day..anything can happen. Wait...you've never played the game have you...maybe Pdiv should give you a game...maybe against some of the teams we always beat..as a given...you know..they don’t count anyway and no effort is required to beat them...so I’m sure you will be a star in that show! What do you think the probability of that will be?..statistically speaking.....

TS 7/9/2009 9:26:42 AM
Excellent article, puts things into perspective for those who CAN understand what you've outlined ;)

bo 7/9/2009 9:27:51 AM
Dude, you need a life. Seeing as though you are so good at calculating, what is the win statistics of the previous bok coaches? According to you, we can never beat NZ away, so why bother playing there if it does not count? Should we rather win all games by 3 points so that they are not excluded as "outliners". Screw you dude.

SimonP 7/9/2009 9:28:05 AM
Whether he is a good coach or not, it is not his fault, it cant be as he is an ANC supporter. The sports minister has blamed PDV bizarre comments on SARU, why not PDV he said the rubbish. Naturally he can not be blamed he is an ANC supporter, how typical the ANC shifting the blame away from a member to something else.

Davey 7/9/2009 9:28:54 AM
hahaha what a dumb calculation!
According to your calculation Jake White had 0% win record at the last world cup!
I suggest you find a new career path dude, as you're a hopeless statistician!

@Stupid 7/9/2009 9:29:26 AM
Statistics can be manipulated to suit your own aganda. PDV is an idiot and has the IQ of the boks' last scoreline, BLACK you are ignorant and if you really believed that your "STATISTICAL ANALYSIS" is going to go down well with some of the more informed people here the "STATISTICALLY" you must be one of the less intelligent people writing on this forum.

Jane 7/9/2009 9:30:26 AM
LOL. You all take yourselves so seriously!!!
Great piece.

Jabulani 7/9/2009 9:33:29 AM
So UCT offers lousy Masters these days, no wonder it is droping in university rankings.

Dawie 7/9/2009 9:33:51 AM
Rogue Trooper: I fully agree with every word you said. Amen

Taetjo 7/9/2009 9:35:34 AM
LOL! As a UCT graduate I'm disappointed in the absurdity of this article. The Springboks loose and win against the All Blacks almost every year and somehow last year's win is not included in PDV's credit books. We play the B&I Lions every 12 years, shouldn't those matches be omitted too since they happen so rarely? Damn man. Please, don't mention that you are from UCT again because you are putting an excellent academic institution in shame here. Did you complete your Masters? Damn!

Lucky Ralawe 7/9/2009 9:37:09 AM
Dude, your bias against Die Snor stood out like a sore thumb. I will consider taking that Statistics 101 course yet again if I were you.

HJ 7/9/2009 9:40:26 AM
Can't help but wonder if Jake White would have been subject to the same statistical analysis. If PDV wins people say "its because of Jakes' past contributions to the team" and if he loses its "no he's a bad coach". Get a life dude! I can come up with the same argument when looking at the past Bok coaches. I FULLY AGREE WITH 1EYE.

Mpho 7/9/2009 9:45:20 AM
Great article; only people with brains will understand you. Can someone please pass this article on to old Twakkie & the Springbok camp ?? Maybe SARU should incentivise Twakkie for talking "sense" ; rumour has it that the springbok players think he's the biggest idiot, and they all have their favourite jokes & saying's about Twakkie when they're alone. Question is , if this was a privately listed company, would you appoint an idiot like Twakkie ? Same applies to our Govt and Govt departments ?

Troll 7/9/2009 9:54:06 AM
It doesn't take a masters in anything to know P.Divy isn't fit for INTERNATIONAL coaching. He just doesn't have the presence of White or Mallet.

Our wins are because of an awesome crop of players, all thanks to Mr Jake White.

P. Divy's expansive running game is delusional. When the boks went back to their World Cup winning style of rugby we got the results we wanted. That is the style best suited to Bok rugby and if it aint broke don't fix it. P Divy's style is severely flawed.

I think he's a wacky little guy but he just needs do what's right for the team.

1eye 7/9/2009 9:54:09 AM
@Black Statistically from the responses if one studied Stats at UCT one becomes an intellectual moron

Kabelo Mphalo 7/9/2009 9:58:54 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!! Well written Black. As a statistical manager I enjoyed this one. Obviously there are gaping holes in your argument, but I am sure it was not meant as a serious argument, more to make a point which is, Trevor should stick to politics.

tass 7/9/2009 10:00:10 AM
Same mentality as this articehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/jul/07/louise-taylor-south-africa-2010-world-cup?commentpage=5

David 7/9/2009 10:00:24 AM
I agree with the article. Great. And its meant to show a different approach to what we think about the team, no matter how biased. (I am biased, I love the team). To tell the author to "Get a Life" is a lazy statement just because he doesn't support our team. One could argue your outliers, but in actual terms, the Boks are going backwards, and your stats reflect that too. Welldone

SimonP 7/9/2009 10:01:41 AM
CTK, once more you make it a race issue. Just admit you would love to be white.

rugbyduiwel 7/9/2009 10:02:26 AM
very good article. shows what everybody really knows - that PDV is a bokwagter and he all by himself, through his absolute stupid comments and his arrogance and his pathetic team selections and subs halfway through the games, destroyed the pride and morale of Jake White's world beating team of 2007. All Blacks and Aussies are licking their lips and waiting to destroy the Boks in the Tri Nations 2009. Plenty of heartache to come..........

Shimane Mbuyisa 7/9/2009 10:02:54 AM
Black did you say you are from that prestigeous institution just below Table Mountain? Unbelievable! Man, I feel like puking on my degrees' certificates because this just cannot be for real. Dude, please change careers because statistically, you are worse than StatsSA combined

Galen 7/9/2009 10:03:47 AM
Please do not use institutions' names and fabricate academic qualifications just to get people's attention and buy in from the ill-informed. The unmitigated gibberish you have published does not even invite one to argue with you on a technical statistical level. Instead of bringing the institution and qualification into disrepute, do yourself a favour and pick up a “Statistics for Dummies” book.

Win 7/9/2009 10:04:43 AM
CTK: You a prized chop, only you will turn this into a "Whites wanting to get rid of a the coach" issue. The boks have been playing shit, the coach is liable! For once I can say the soccer is doing a lot better than the rugby! PDV needs public speaking lessons to! But lets see if he can change things around in the tri-nations, if he can't, then he must piss off!

JS 7/9/2009 10:05:33 AM
Interesting article, however, you will have to measure all coaches the same way before you can compare the stats..... it will be quite interesting to see.

Joe 7/9/2009 10:05:41 AM
Hey Black humerous article, enjoyed it thank you. BIt of drivel, but fun! You forgot to include the black mechanic vs white mechanic stats, and if the black mechanic had a pink tutu then how many times did he poke the bushveld lion in the eye!

smuller 7/9/2009 10:06:14 AM
oh doug you beat me to it, although I would have said 93.2% LOL

imraan 7/9/2009 10:07:14 AM
The writer is a fool, please do the right thing and give back your degree. Trevor might not have done stats but he definetly smarter than the writer. How can you remove a result because the boks convincingly beat a big team by 50 points?

Carl 7/9/2009 10:08:50 AM
This is FUNNY! Your dry sense of humor is really to be appreciated! My opinion about PdV is does not matter.....GREAT ARTICLE!

Thomas 7/9/2009 10:10:16 AM
My friend, you know stats but you don't know rugby and therefore is not qualified to indentify outliers. My advice - stick with what you know

Andy 7/9/2009 10:10:42 AM
Ah Black, very tongue-in-cheek! (at least not foot-in-mouth). Have a fine day.

Eduard 7/9/2009 10:15:56 AM
This will give more insight if you do the same calculation for previous Bok coaches. Also, you can include in your "normalizing" the fact that we have the best players in the world and therefore should win all the best teams in the world!

Craig 7/9/2009 10:18:01 AM
What a PLONKER!

Rayman 7/9/2009 10:18:37 AM
I would add the two victories, lets give credit where it is due. Leaving us then with 4 out of 9 which is 44%, still not good enough.

Mike F 7/9/2009 10:22:15 AM
What more proof do you need that we will apply different & more stringent yardsticks to measure black people who move into "the advantaged positions previously reserved for whites only". Just tell me who is really obsessed with playing the race card. This article just proves that PDV's "white mechanic/black mechanic example is spot on.

coasti 7/9/2009 10:23:03 AM
What an idiot..

BB 7/9/2009 10:24:37 AM
Problem with this is again just statistics. Scoreboard matters. PDV is a completely useless ignorant fool when it comes to public speaking, they should get someone else for that but give the man a chance with the coaching. A win is a win and a loss is a loss, does not matter if it is Southern or Northern Hemisphere. Stats is just a manipulation of figures to prove the outcome you desire.

Charlie 7/9/2009 10:25:23 AM
Considering the statistics, we can conclude that you're an a@#hole!!!

Jo 7/9/2009 10:30:36 AM
Your analysis is extremely flawed dude. You are mixing quantitave data with qualitative data. Quantitave with the amounts that we won and lost with qualitative data being the strength of the team we played against...?
There is absolute no value in this analysis of yours...??

NS 7/9/2009 10:32:10 AM
I have never read more bias nonesense, and this is from a stats major. But even if I were to entertain your drivel, then I agree with Morne. If you remove statistical anomalies, then the 19-0 win by NZ and the loss in Durban to Australia should also be removed. This then increases the win percentage to 40%. How about you perform a similar, bias method of calculation to all our previous coaches up to Nick Mallet, then come back to us and tell us what your quasi-analysis comes up with...

Wolverine 7/9/2009 10:33:08 AM
Considering the article, we can conclude that you don't have a life.

mk 7/9/2009 10:37:16 AM
SA has won 11 out 16 = 69% under PDV. not 12.
lost 4 last year (tri-nations) and 3rd test against BIL.

aajj 7/9/2009 10:38:02 AM
I didn't read all the post so sorry if this is already adressed. You are making an error because you are looking at the data wrong. If we where looking at average scores in all games played, you would have removed the two very high scoring games - ones agains us also mind you. But we are looking at a win rate wich only looks at either you won or you didn't If you want to unmathimatically decide some oponents aren't strong enough remove them. But you can not take away two wins just because they one well. I think you need to ask UCT for a refund. Might be mistaken though like I said I'm not a mathematician.

Coacing? 7/9/2009 10:41:05 AM
If Dick Muir coaches the back-line, and Gary Gold the forwards, who does PdV coach?

Aubrey 7/9/2009 10:41:24 AM
This is a lot of !@#$%^&&*
Grow up

Big Bad Bob 7/9/2009 10:44:13 AM
So the real acid test here would be to do the same analysis for Jake White and his predecessor. Then we can compare Div's performances against other coaches and THAT will really tell us how good a job he is doing.

Rugby RIP 7/9/2009 10:51:23 AM
I also did stats at varsity, so what - who needs stats to show you that PdV is a liability of note. All wins have been IN SPITE OF De Villiers.

Check us come seriously short in the Tri Nations again this year.


Willem 7/9/2009 10:51:43 AM
Dear Black: Firstly, how do you know a guy graduated from UCT? Because he tells you so! Oldest joke in the book. Secondly, in anylyzing PDV in this way, you would be much better to repeat the same process on Jake White, using the same questionable formula of "outliers". Also, do the same to Morne du Plessis, Viljoen, Struelli, Markgraaf, then come up with a statistical comparison ON THE SAME grounds between DIFFERENT coaches. I don't need a Master's degree at UCT, to use an Excel spredsheet to perform thses calculations. In any case, if you are going to "deduct points" from any coach for "outliners", then you need to add points for every SA game played against the very best team in the world: NZ. Add two points for every game played and won in SA and 4 points for every game played and won in NZ. Then your numbers game will be less skewed, but this contrversial. NZ is the ONLY team in the world and the ONLY team to beat! This must reflect in your stats.

Rodders 7/9/2009 10:52:00 AM
Dude, you have failed to follow your own hypothesis properly. Firstly, if we have to eliminate the big win over Oz and the win in NZ "because they happen so seldom" then you also have to eliminate the Aussies win in SA (because this happens equally seldom - it was their first win in SA this Century, IIRC).
Secondly, you posit that we cannot count the results against teams like England and Argentina, since we are 'expected'to beat them - these two sides were World Cup semi-finalists (performing better than the All Blacks and Wallabies!). anyway, if you're prepared to discount the UK home nations as teams we should beat every time, then you simpy have to discount the Lions matches, as the team is composed of players from those teams that are outliers anyway!
On the plus side however, you have indisputably proved the old saying that you get "lies, damn lies and statistics"!!!...

Corriew 7/9/2009 10:52:09 AM
Based on your statistical analysis, I conclude you did not pass that Masters year . . .

CTheB 7/9/2009 10:52:24 AM
Hmmm...it should be pointed out that this analysis will only apply to populations where it is valid to say that outliers and "sure things" can validly be removed and that there is justification for applying a normal distribution to the population. It's often not true.

Dave Smith 7/9/2009 11:01:24 AM
I refused to believe you studied @ UCT. I am also not a fan of PDV, but for us who truly are statisticians, this is a sad article and completely destroys the credibility of using statistical analysis. Sad indeed, Black, you suck! I am an actuary by the way...

Township Girl 7/9/2009 11:10:16 AM
The author is an idiot. This is the first time that a Bok coach's performance has come under such intense scrutiny DESPITE the victories. Yes, PDV lacks leadership skills somewhat which includes communication skills but dont be such a pedantic schoolboy about it. Visit your closest township and offer courses in leadership/development. Dont bother with stats cause you suck at it. I should know because I scored 78% for that subject at varsity. Honestly people! Its rugby, not the World Economic Forum! Damn.

Nothing Personal, just passionate 7/9/2009 11:11:22 AM
Guys, this is one of those wonderful opportunities that only present itself once or twice every full moon to laugh at ourselves. Personally I think this is an exceptionally creative and well written article. In fact, how many people that have done stats have actually applied it out of free will? I think Mr Black would be a brilliant employee. Apart from an opinion, we need forward thinkers in this country.
I suggest that we setup a think tank on world rugby stats. Build proper information databases and publish the dashboards. It can only add value to the steering of a sport we all feel very passionately about.

LzK 7/9/2009 11:11:31 AM
BLACK, at least you can draw statistical inferences on real life events, that I give you thumbs-up, but you are damn wrong my friend, on the issue of outlier you can only decide if your data point is an outlier if it is unusual from other observations (Boks beating Blacks in Dunedin is not an outlier, consider that England beat Blacks in Wellington “they were also world champion”, therefore I can draw conclusion that this is not far from observation), that will avoid misleading interpretation.

adam 7/9/2009 11:15:04 AM
Dunm article. This would then erase most of our wins against scotland, our 36-0 victory against england, quarter final win against argentina. Hell we should not have won a world cup. give the man a chance as long as he does not speak.

Adrian 7/9/2009 11:19:20 AM
@the statistical fools. Can any of you morons tell us how many times Jake White won against Australia and New Zealand?

Louis 7/9/2009 11:21:11 AM
Clearly Mpho and Black have the same qualification. Me thinks they do crime stats for the SAPS.

Renji 7/9/2009 11:21:33 AM
As a former Ikey I'm embarrassed that you mentioned UCT in this drivel.

Carl 7/9/2009 11:23:06 AM
Ha ha ha....This is great!...Never seen so many people without a sense of humour! And the stats guys....so serious! And of course the political radical showboats.... Man , you really did well Black!

Nambian 7/9/2009 11:25:14 AM
Statistically, 90% of bok supporters are hypocrites....

David C 7/9/2009 11:40:01 AM
The stats will also show that pdv is there for window dressing 100% of the time and coaching 28.6% of the time.

Steven 7/9/2009 11:42:57 AM
I think one thing we can all agree on is that pdv needs a spokesman. Every time he opens his mouth he seems to put his foot in it.

James 7/9/2009 11:45:03 AM
Bottom line, a coach should bring something to the party, so to speak. A coach should have a plan and should coach his players. The boks have in my opinion won(where they have done so) in spite of PDV not because of him. Imagine if we had a true coach what potential the current boks would have to be the greatest bok side ever?

biobot 7/9/2009 11:45:25 AM
Considering the size of you sample, your confidence interval must be tiny.

morena 7/9/2009 11:47:23 AM
easy morne you killing this black guy thought he kinda made sense but that got cold water poured on it after reading you comments all i can say is brilliant morne, i think you need to teach black true stastics not selective stats

Joe Black 7/9/2009 11:52:52 AM
Against what are you comparing the 28.6% ?? I don't see the similar results of passed coaches in your analysis ??

Jakes 7/9/2009 11:53:42 AM
There is a flaw in your statistical analysis. You can't include the losses against AUS and NZ without including the two wins! We may not be expected to win against them (or with that margin), but the WORLD knows we are capable of it, and have done it plenty of times in the past, in fact, the STATISTICS show before our readmission into int rugby, we were pretty much head and head with NZ as far as wins and losses go! Why do you thing they rate us as the team to beat in World Rugby??? Your next flaw is the statistics itself. If you use this method with PDV you need to do it with all the previous Bok coaches as well, who also had to keep a certain win average, INCLUDING Jake White! This will distort the statistical results for ALL and once again might end up with your 28.6% not being that bad compared to the other coaches! THINK BEFORE YOU DO THINGS!!! PS. - And I'm only a teacher!!! lol

Ronnie 7/9/2009 12:03:01 PM
You would've received more credibility if you had used the same formulae to analyse previous coaches, especially JW. Perhaps extend your analysis to include other current national coaches...

Steve 7/9/2009 12:04:48 PM
If this is what our top universities are producing, we have bigger problems than rugby to worry about. In fact, I am not totally convinced this person finished high school, because their "hypothesis" contradicts itself at every turn.

rm 7/9/2009 12:23:13 PM
The problem with statistics is that you can prove anything you want.

For example: Pirates in the Caribbean kept global warming at bay.

There is a direct correlation between the amount of pirates roaming the seas of the Caribbean dropping and the earth's temperature going up.

Same stats can be drawn for PdV. Did the Boks do better or worse while he was coach? Depends what figures you use.

The only thing we can say for sure is that the man has a contract and until such time as the contract runs out or SARU puts up the money to buy him out we can argue and speculate but it won't change a thing.

Viljoen 7/9/2009 12:23:28 PM
still dont like piwy's arrogance

ND 7/9/2009 12:26:26 PM
Plz tell me u failed ur stats exams coz this is very stupid. are u that clever?

tubby 7/9/2009 12:33:05 PM
hahaha..stats..now THERE's an accurate means of measuring..hahahahahahaha..Black, dude, your article sux terribly..all of it..

Danie 7/9/2009 12:33:45 PM
It is amazing to see how many idiots is analyzing the validity of your statements in the article when it’s clear to see it was done tongue-in-cheek

EL Classico 7/9/2009 12:41:37 PM
Black - this Saturday night, when you're in your room alone yet again,you can do this analysis on your beloved Jake White. An outlier for this would be your racial hatred of PDV- don'r forget to factor that in!

LzK 7/9/2009 12:46:12 PM
BLACK, at least you can draw statistical inferences to real life events, that I give you thumbs-up, but you are damn wrong my friend, on the issue of outlier you can only decide if your data point is an outlier if it is unusual from other observations (IN AND OUT OF YOUR DATA SAMPLE), THEREFORE, BOKS beating BLACKS in Dunedin is not an outlier, considering that ENGLAND beat BLACKS in Wellington “They were also world champions”, therefore one can draw conclusion based on other observations (IN AND OUT OF YOUR DATA SAMPLE) that this data point is not far from observation – and therefore not a margin of error), without using a dual model structure you’ll have misleading interpretation and therefore subjective results.

Penquin 7/9/2009 12:49:55 PM
Black, please do the business community (and your current employer) a favour by publishing your real name to protect people from trusting any statistical analysis you produce in future...

Pieter 7/9/2009 12:53:33 PM
The point is if you all believe in one GOD then it is good

HEHEHAHA 7/9/2009 1:04:21 PM
Good some humour statically there is 0 chance that this man will go ,so he weighted his stats by surrounding himself with good people,studied a bit of economics,all googly goop to me,what counts i think is the score on the board,if we win against any nation we love it,so yeah he most probably is not a good coach but good people around so stats should remain positive,go bokke

whites4zuma.co.za 7/9/2009 1:12:39 PM
Interesting Perspective. But as they say, the proof is in the pudding and not in the statistics so lets see after the Tr-Nations. Pdv, not a bad dude. He has a bit of a racist agenda, but do the players like him. That is the greatest victory that a coach can win, to be liked and respected by his team. Top dogs like our Bokke, will not like or respect a poor coach, so let the pros decide on PDV's coaching Skills. He has to realise that his petty racist comments are not welcome and that rugby is not the forum for him to convey how badly he believes he has been done bye. Other than that, I like the crazy old coot, someone interesting for once.

M 7/9/2009 1:16:55 PM
All I can say is, what "masters" degree and what "university"? You can't even interpret data and identify outliers. But I'm sure they put you through because you are Mr. "Black" hahaha!!! And you have 16 samples to identify a trend... stick to the basics dude.

Ruggerman 7/9/2009 1:32:16 PM
You ,dear Blackie, perpetuate selective logic and as such can be disregarded and discredited as a failure and a fraud. I fail to see the merit in trying to continually batter a man who has been appointed to lead South African rugby. He might not have been everyone's first choice but he has a good track record and until such time as he fails or has a trend of failure -one off losses do not constitute a trend (the only way to do this fairly is win/loss ratio as compared with other coaches in the same time frame). Right now he has gathered together a group of winners in his coaching and support team - and they are doing the business. PdV - sure you have your quirks (don't we all)but you have my support. To the critics, take a good look at yourselves with your narrow minded and obvious attitudes

Villan 7/9/2009 2:00:52 PM
Well done Mr Black. Your article may be cynical, biased, controversial and perhaps derogatory - but you've got people thinking. Just look at the MASS of responses! Good on you lad. 1-0.

Denver 7/9/2009 2:03:52 PM
What a load rubbish. Your article is comparable to the 'Memoirs of Julius Malema'.

Sham 7/9/2009 2:23:02 PM
All this just to prove that PDV is not up to standard.I have used the same statistical analysis on Jake White's performance over the period of 4 years and even though history say that he had a 67% success rate. However, This was against your Argentina' Figi, Namibia, Pacific Islandes Tonga, USA, Uruguay, Scotland, & Wales. I included England as after the 2003 World Cup, the majority of players retired and they had to rebuild from start. So, obviously they had to be included as a sure thing for the Springboks to beat. However, I took countries like New Zealand, Australia, france & Ireland (coz they were peaking at the time) and came up with a 34% success rate, not good by any measure and must also add that you are bullshitting everyone here and looking at the replies, i find the need to advise our people to grow up and overcome the racist remarks because it is PDV we talking about here.Im not a fan of the guy but I believe he must be given a chance to prove himself.

Piet Mulder 7/9/2009 2:59:22 PM
LOL. He only won because he inherited a World Cup winning squad - His tactics NEVER played a part in the win. Then when he loses the great world cup winning squad is not mentioned. Makes you ponder. Kettle, meet pot.

I agree he is not the best speaker, but he is not paid to speak (well its part of his job but not the priority), he is paid to coach the same world cup winning team that won and lost. Oh Black, please sue UCT cos they lied to you!

Stats non-expert 7/9/2009 3:10:13 PM
If you have the exact population parameter, why even bother with a stats analysis? I thought the whole point is that if you don't know the population parameter, you use the "sample" to make an inference about the population.

turbo_superboss 7/9/2009 3:45:36 PM
I agree with stats non-expert. Also you remove two positive outliers, you must as well remove two negative outliers as well.

FreedomFrom 7/9/2009 4:42:09 PM
Why do you clowns have to bring GOD into this? What about freedom from religion? Take your non-sense elsewhere...

TheAristocrat 7/9/2009 6:47:47 PM
Whichever way you spin it, the end result is the same. PDV is a very poor coach. The Boks are winning games in spite of him, not because of him. He failed to implement the game he wanted (Eddie Jones achieved more in two days - literally!), he has failed in his selections and has failed outright as an ambassador to South Africa. The truth is the Boks are playing worse and worse as time goes by. Cant the De Villiers fanboys see this? TNs 08 was our only real test and we failed spectacularly. It was one of the most consistently poor campaigns we've ever embarked on. We beat NZ in Dunedin, but they got stronger and stronger as the tournament progressed, and we failed to keep up with them or Australia. That 53-8 win over Australia was an odd game when you consider how badly Australia played, uncharacteristic handling errors and poor defence on the outside in particular and the breakdown (which was totally dominant against us previously). The truth is he has failed. He has the best Bok squad ever with more depth that any Bok coach has ever had and he has failed to make any kind of impact on this team. Eugene Eloff did more with the Lions, and look what he had to work with. We dont need stats to tell us what we see. By bringing stats into this you make it sound like something we've yet to prove. Everyone on the world knows that De Villiers is woeful, much like that coach that replaced "the chosen one" at Chelsea.

Nigel 7/9/2009 7:24:38 PM
I would most certainly include the outliers, but that still leaves a low %. Time will tell, the tri nations will reveal all & I odds are not on our side, but after this series I will judge the man, & we come last, he must go.

Walt 7/9/2009 7:32:27 PM
Great fun!
The next tri-nations will prove your point. I think we will end up 3rd - again. The 3rd test against BI Lions clearly exposed our flawed team. They are fast losing the White, insight and replacing it with helium tediom.

reknaw 7/9/2009 9:01:23 PM
were currently in the worst finacial situation that was caused by all these well educated people,so stats have no relevance by reality does if your a chop then thats what you are,pdv is a chop

Louis 7/9/2009 9:36:54 PM
Studies have shown the research is a major cause of statistics.

Panda 7/10/2009 8:04:43 AM
Sorry mate, but there is a difference between research statistics and sport statistics. It is a matter of semantics ... I'm fairly certain Trevor was not talking about research statistics, but rather the win-loss ratio, a common statistic in determining success in sport.

Jakkals @ FreedomFrom 7/10/2009 9:34:47 AM
I see your wheel is spinning, but your hamster looks dead.

TIA 7/10/2009 9:57:58 AM
..."If you want to run with the big dogs, you must lift your leg up high"...PDV will really have to pull a "rat out the hat" this time around!

Jake 7/10/2009 11:46:31 AM
FANTASTIC! NOW WE CAN WE DO THE SAME WITH JAKE WHITE?

cindy 7/10/2009 3:07:18 PM
LOL! tx for the friday afternoon laugh.. well, this was written earlier, but it's afternoon reading for me :) funny man!

IndeedWarren 7/10/2009 3:28:11 PM
Any win is intrinsically a reflection of a teams ability to win. I think PDV should never, ever - under any circumstances, be allowed to engage the public or the press, but while a team is winning under a coach, the coach has the moral high ground, and you can't really touch his coaching ability.

spot 7/10/2009 9:17:07 PM
By the same arguement and without having the exact stats at hand, this gives banana banana a 100% winning record!

Mark 7/13/2009 3:50:05 AM
The mere fact there are so many responses to your article means you are on to something here and people rarely like the truth. Good work!

Real Statistician 7/13/2009 6:33:04 PM
Hahaha. What a joke. Anybody who did real stats at varsity cringed right through that letter. Do a real degree with some real stats, not that airy-fairy hand-waving stuff.
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Oom Piet @cindy and Cynical says... Good moaning my dogter. What is wrong with calling a traitor a traitor, as in Cynical who has threatened to leave but cannot resist poking his nose in SA's affairs? No, I won't get tired of commenting on others' stupid comments. You yourself are guilty of commenting on my comment instead of the article. Did you forget to take your medication this moaning dogter?

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