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No-go for whites in BEE deal?

by
2008-09-05 11:06

Tshepo Matjila, News24 User

Should poor whites benefit from BEE? What really constitutes an empowered organisation? Is it an organisation that ensures that they follow the DTI BBBEE Codes of Good Practice? Or is it an organisation which ensures that the communities from which it operates mutually benefit, with no one excluded due to his race, colour or creed?

I am asking all this questions because on Thursday, the trade union Solidarity challenged Vodacom, SA leading cellular network, to allow and make provision for poor whites to participate in its Yebo Yethu public share offering that is has made exclusively to black South African.

Some R7.5bn worth of share is on offer here, hailed as the largest BEE transaction in the telecoms industry - significantly more than that offered by Telkom a few years back to the Elephant consortium.

At first glance this supposition looks inconceivable that legislation that has come to pass solely to empower the previously disadvantaged should now profit the previously advantaged. What a huge paradox!

I believe we will be doing ourselves a huge disservice and injustice if we fail to look into the reasons and merits provided by Dr Dirk Hermann, Solidarity chairperson. The reasoning behind his arguments are logical and are worth looking into, but then how do you strike the balance?

Slippery slope?

How do you know and measure how poor a white person vis-à-vis a black person who has always been poor? Besides, what white people call poor whites still pales to the scale of what black people term "poor blacks".

A friend of mine countered that if a white person can afford to buy shares, how poor are they really? Dr. Hermann argues that "If Vodacom was driven by a real belief in empowerment, they would not exclude anyone. The company's reaction is serious, because they have admitted it's only about the scorecard."

Exclusion of any kind is unacceptable but how about redress and balancing of the scales for the previously disenfranchised? Even pressing is how do we continue to build a racially divided and resource allocation based on colour at the expense of national reconciliation and reconstruction?

We cannot continue to use such economic exclusions if we advocate that we are all equal under the sun with each of us being our brothers' and sisters' keepers, but where do we draw the line? We need to debate this topic relevantly without the emotions if we hoping to come up with a comprehensive and inclusive empowerment codes that we might term as "Good Practice"!

How do we strike this balance? Tell me how...

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Thembalabantubonke 9/5/2008 11:11:07 AM
Better watch out bru, the bricks are coming :)

Brian 9/5/2008 11:11:11 AM
BEE should only apply to previously dissadvantaged over the age of 25. No point in disadvantaging the youth. 25 and younger should be allowed to participate in all transactions.

Oom_Kosie 9/5/2008 11:14:22 AM
Your point about "what white people term poor whites still pales in comparison to what black people call poor blacks" is incorrect. Go to some of the informal settlements where the poor whites live and you will see. I have seen both the black poor and white poor for myself, and believe me, the poor whites are just as completely in misery and abject poverty.

fiellies 9/5/2008 11:14:52 AM
Poor people are poor people, and it is our responsibality to help them if they qualify, except and look for our help. Anything less than that would be cruel and inhumane.

sarah 9/5/2008 11:16:42 AM
The remaining few white people in SA make up approximately 7.8% of the population. On a personal level I can safely say that not all of them are massively wealthy, so we don't rule all things financial in the country - contra to popular belief... Why is it then, that we constantly have to defend our posessions & our right to better ourselves. I NEVER BENIFITTED from a racist system which I opposed VERY VOCALLY. Why not make the deal open to households with an income of less than X.

Peter Black 9/5/2008 11:17:12 AM
I think lenience should take place and flexibility must be implemented in empowerment deals - if you poor you poor and the Government should support you irrespective of race. Only in this country would we be debating how poor people should be classified and there's a peking order in poverty - what rubbish. Support the bottom - white or black - these people need the support!

RB 9/5/2008 11:17:36 AM
Everyday everyone in SA moans about racism and that poeple should be equal and get a long, but then companies put forward a new kind of racism like mentioned here. A year or 2 ago there was a similiar shares deal in which only Blacks could buy into..HOW is that not racism? I'm sorry with rules like that you will struggle to change my view on Blacks, BEE and everything else corrupt in this country!

Matrix 9/5/2008 11:17:58 AM
BB/BEE originally was a noble idea, i.e. as apposed to disenfranchisement of people, the idea was to grow economy & advantage those previously disadvantaged. Economics dictate (as you reflected) that poor dont have the finances to invest, whereas middle & low income earners have been able to squeze some investment. If allowed, these people will invest & this in turn would generate more wealth to be shared with more, even disadvantaged. Only way I can think of striking a balance. Sasol, Telkom egs

tshepo 9/5/2008 11:18:15 AM
it wont work because poor people don't have R2500 to spend on shares.

Greg 9/5/2008 11:20:20 AM
That is the whole debate about BEE. I'd much rather see share options like the Vodacom one than that of the Telkom Elephant consortium deal. AT least Vodacom is trying to enrich the masses not only a few fat cats who dont deserve it. I do believe in BEE like this but not when it comes to appointing people who cant do their jobs. Thats the prob with our scenario. Service delivery is terrible. It may be empowering some but the people on the receiving end are disempowered. Makes no sense!

Fred 9/5/2008 11:20:38 AM
How do you define a poor black, if they are poor where does the money come from to purchase the shares (can not be that poor). Again when we are trying to break down racial barriers along comes something that stirs the pot, are we not all equal in this democracy, no more discrimination bases on skin colour. This is just another way for the Fat Black Cats to enrich themselfs further, as they are the only one who benefit under BEE. The Risch Blacks get ritcher why the poor continue to suffer.

SM 9/5/2008 11:21:04 AM
Being previously disadvantaged (under apartheid)means currently advantaged. Being currently disadvantaged (under BEE,BBEEE, AA) means infuture you will be previously disadvantaged. Where are we going. Lets look at the "POOR" and help them (us). There is a saying: "Every time history repeats itself the price goes up". Lets make new history and steer away from the repeats (read doing the wrong thing again).

Masti 9/5/2008 11:22:00 AM
Having looked at the vodacom deal I can say tht Vodacom are clearly not interested in empowering anybody, let alone the 'poor' white folk. The share price offers no discount and you are locked into the deal over a prolonged period ! So wheres the upside ? Wrt to ur question, my only comment is that the injustices of centuries cannot be erased in 14yrs remember that white folk...at least you have the option to leave the country back then there was no means to leave.

Hobbs 9/5/2008 11:22:07 AM
the shares... then he is not poor, but a black can afford shares and he is poor?? please.... and then, please tell me the Mr. Sexwale is poor!! BBBEEE is a farce and we need all people to be equal! from top to bottom...

PP 9/5/2008 11:23:31 AM
Well, if the poor whites are too poor to buy shares, then surely the poor blacks are also too poor to buy shares, so what benefit is there for them in the scheme. Now if there are other vehicles used to purchase shares, the proceeds of which will go to the poor blacks, then surely the poor whites should have access to the same mechanism. We are not suggesting that the "poor" purchusers of the shares are not really poor, just taking advantage of the rules, are we??

VG 9/5/2008 11:23:40 AM
I was pondering this issue myself, then a prominent DJ asked the question "if you're a poor white, how did you get that way?".We have to remember that BEE was intended to uplift the previously disadvantaged majority, not just a few. What would the rationale be behind allowing people who previously had the oppotunity to invest, but didnt?

Equal 9/5/2008 11:24:31 AM
Everybody is equal - but some of us are more equal than others!

TB 9/5/2008 11:24:34 AM
If they can afford the shares? Then equally how poor are blacks if they can afford the shares? Once again the "initiative" only benefits the group that already has suffcient money to buy shares. No real benefit for either poor whites or blacks. There is no balance in BEE - just imbalance.

Matrix 9/5/2008 11:24:54 AM
exclusion of any kind. Simple logic interpretation (my opinion) is that if powers that be, remove these bias obstacles, all SAfricans will benefit in various ways. 1) The now younger generation will become educated & experienced in wealth creation. 2) Past generations was NOT involved with this (lack of opportunities / knowledge / experience / whatever?) processes & lost out. 3) by growing wealth for all, more tax generated, which may result in lowering of taxes, more job creation, more wealth,.?

AndyC 9/5/2008 11:25:11 AM
Get ride of BEE and replace with PEE. Poor Economic Empowerment.

mxhosakazi 9/5/2008 11:25:16 AM
I cannot believe that the little being shared to try and balance the scale is now wanted by whites. Please do not be greedy let us the black catch up with "you people". What is a poor white anyway besides the lazy bummers at te robots. I just toll up my window - no giving of money to a white beggar!!! Anyway let me not divert from the point.

Oom_Kosie@hotmail.com 9/5/2008 11:25:27 AM
"If a white person can afford to buy shares, how poor are they really?" This does not enter into the discussion, because exactly the same can be said about black people. Dirk Hermann is not the chairperson of Solidarity, he is the Deputy General Secretary. Flip Buys is the General Secretary. Dirk Hermann is the executive director of Solidarity's Helping Hand as well. Solidarity says that BEE seeks to empower disempowered people. Do rich "black diamonds" need empowerment more than poor whites?

Marc 9/5/2008 11:25:52 AM
Until ALL South Africans stop distinguishing between black, white, pink and purple, we will continue to be a bitter racist society well into the future! BEE is just helping this cause along! I like blacks,I like whites. No difference to me.

The Truth 9/5/2008 11:25:56 AM
Hmmm,how about scrapping BEE altogether and letting everyone compete on an equal footing for the first time in this racially obsessed country's history?

Tim 9/5/2008 11:26:09 AM
What if we reward everyone for their hard work. The value that they bring to the country and the skills that they cultivate. No free hand outs, no preferential treatment at all. All work ethic reward! BUT and this is a huge but, Provide opportunity and infrastructure to the previously disadvantaged. Thus, schools bursaries for university, and health care etc. Enable people to learn and become great, rather than pseudo equality. let everyone EARN their achievements.

Tshepo 9/5/2008 11:26:39 AM
Tshepo, your perception that whites can?t be as poor as blacks is flawed. That's the first step to acknowledge, that not only blacks are suffering. Percentage wise there are many more blacks that are poor, but then there are 10 times as many blacks in SA than Whites, so naturally a higher percentage of blacks are poor, compared to the percentage of poor whites. Regardless though, why should blacks alone be given an opportunity here. If the playing fields are level, and black Joe is as poor as white Joe, then surely they both should be considered.

Viparo 9/5/2008 11:26:42 AM
Well then , according to your friend's logic,if a black person can afford to buy shares,how poor are THEY really?hmmm?Excluding people in an offer based on their ethnicity is,guess what,racism. With their offer,everyone in South Africa are eligible for this deal,except the white people.Where did vodacom benefit white folks during apartheid, that they now have to make up for?I have been a loyal customer for 10 years,but after this blatant racism,my contract is not being renewed.

ALL MAN 9/5/2008 11:27:01 AM
the people buying shares in the first place are not the poor ones. This country is very racialy divided already and things like BEE and race quatas are making it even more so. This has been a Democracy for 15 years and in some ways it looks more divided than in 94. Every argument and disagreement ends up being a mudd-slinging match, with blacks siding with blacks and whites with whites. It's disgusting.

James 9/5/2008 11:27:56 AM
If poor whites who can afford to buy shares are not really that poor, then surely the blacks who can afford to buy them dont need to benefit from a BEE deal either. It demonstrates that BBBEEE is a farce and is discriminatory. I say that equal opportunity is equal opportunity thus there is no place for BBBEE because it is exclusive.

Eegee 9/5/2008 11:28:39 AM
How to strike a balance yes? You say "if a white person can afford to buy shares, how poor are they really?" Then by the same rationale if a black person can afford shares have they not already been economically empowered? It needs to be about the poor and the only fair way would be a means test, which is unfortunately to cumbersome.

Confushus 9/5/2008 11:28:55 AM
One question put forward is, "how poor is a white person if they can afford to buy shares". Doesn't that count for anyone who can afford to buy shares? However, BEE is exactly that, Black Economic Empowerment. So whites don't qualify under this heading. If we want to empower, economically, all the poorer peoples of SA, then maybe this area needs to be revisited and a new/other plan put forward.

Marius 9/5/2008 11:29:12 AM
My question then is, the previously disadvantaged is still disadvantaged because how many of those could afford to buy shares if they cannot even by a loaf of bread, these deals are not for the average PDI, it is merely there for the select few who already has shares in Sasol, Telkom and Media24, as they are the only ones that can afford, when will the playing fields be levelled, when will all of us share in the rainbow nation of SA?

Matrix 9/5/2008 11:29:32 AM
Grow the economy, by empowering all, to the benefit of all, & everyone sharing equally. NOT, when the economy shrinks, disenfranchise one group in favour of another. Fairness towards all will get the support of most, then we would all be a happier nation. I am convinced that whichever party has the guts to do this, will increase their votes. Now tell me who do we vote for??? None of the existing parties follow such a principle.

Juan 9/5/2008 11:31:25 AM
This racially based schemes SICKENS me! Funny how vodacom has NO PROBLEM charging white people for using theire network and becoming subscribers, but does not allow them to buy shares! SICK SICK SICK!

Rhapelang 9/5/2008 11:31:27 AM
Who will still have the power after this share offering? Do anyone think poor blacks will really benefit from this hoax? For me it makes no difference if so-called poor whites buys shares. Just tax them on profits as well and use that money to uplift the real poor people! Why should we pay for something that is already ours!

HT 9/5/2008 11:31:32 AM
...a danger of these BEE concepts is that they are now creating a "currently and future disadvantage" group. Will this also be corrected in the future? "A friend of mine countered that if a white person can afford to buy shares, how poor are they really?" : then how disadvantaged is the previous disadvantaged groups if THEY can afford shares? I do appreciate your insight, though.

terence 9/5/2008 11:31:49 AM
and this is deffintely a way forward for the new south africa. At the end of the day we want all south africans to be well off not just a few whites and a few blacks. As it stands there not that many white people in this country with the number declining daily. There are more well off blacks than whites. PS only a few white people were rich pre 1990 not all as you so claim. This idea is positive for SA and will help curb poverty it is not fair to just curb black poverty...

Juan 9/5/2008 11:32:41 AM
How can King Goodwell Zwelithini, The Bafikeng's or the Black Multi Billionaires be "previously disadvantaged" Just because of their "line of birth" they have acquired riches far beyond comprehension. I dare anybody to proof to me that under apartheid a system like BEE was used to enrich Afrikaners. BEE is nothing other than steeling, the 8th command says that, "though shall not steel" The people that partake in this evil practice is just as guilty as the architects. You have been warned.

Blood_Doll (Previously Disadvantaged) 9/5/2008 11:33:32 AM
BEE should be scrapped in favour of CEE ? Citizen Economic Empowerment. Only then will we see inroads into the alleviation of poverty. Basing any sort of empowerment on criteria such as race will only lead to more resentment and alienation. The previously disadvantaged has had enough time to create a more advantageous future for themselves; 14 years is ample time to weed oneself off handouts. Schemes such as Vodacom?s and every other so called BEE scheme should be made available to all in South

Hakuna Matata 9/5/2008 11:34:00 AM
do you stop being disadvantaged? It pisses me off to see black owned companies getting contract after contract due to their BEE status and in the procees pass their white counterparts in terms of wealth but they still receive preferential treatment.

Filemon 9/5/2008 11:36:52 AM
When a company is offering a "BEE" deal blatantly only for a scorecard, the share offer should be open to EVERYBODY but with perhaps limited share allocations based on PDI staus and wealth status. The CDI's (Currently Disadvantaged Individuals) - nasmely poor whites are the ones suffering the most. Disgraceful.

HDog 9/5/2008 11:36:59 AM
It has to be asked who this deal is going to help get richer? The poor or the already rich? And yes it is only about getting rich, not about development of the previously disadvantage. It has to be asked what would have happened in this country if BEE deals was graded on development purely, i.e. paying for education, really empowering people (regardless of race), giving them skills, as appose to window dressing and only making the rich blacks richer.

Oom_Kosie 9/5/2008 11:37:43 AM
VG, go to the poor white communities yourself and talk to the people. A great number of them have been extremely poor (as in so poor they had to beg for daily bread) for much more than 14 years. Others were in what you could call the "lower middle class" before 1990, but were plunged into poverty after forced severance packages and AA policies. They NEVER had the opportunity to invest anything, they were never "advantaged" or rich. Now they are being "punished" because some whites are rich.

jn 9/5/2008 11:38:35 AM
It is wrong to suppose that all white people are/were rich. Some have always been poor. What bothers me most about BEE is that the same ANC cadres get empowered again and again and again.

Jason 9/5/2008 11:38:49 AM
"A friend of mine countered that if a white person can afford to buy shares, how poor are they really? " DOES THAT SAME ARGUMENT WORK THE OTHER WAY? If a black person can afford to buy shares how poor are they really?

Mike 9/5/2008 11:40:16 AM
If the system of upliftment made provision for evidence in efforts then it would work, as long as people receive handouts they will stay poor and dependent!

Terence 9/5/2008 11:40:31 AM
"What would the rationale be behind allowing people who previously had the oppotunity to invest, but didnt? - VG" what a silly thing to say what makes you think all white people were rich and could invest you are seriously ignorant young chap. How is government sorting out poverty by making its white minority poor or is the white minority not included in the poverty stats??? i asume the latter

charlie 9/5/2008 11:40:42 AM
To expect poor poeple black and white to rather buys sheares in their companie instead of buying food and basics ?? Or are these shares given away to the poor ? If thats the case color should not be a guideline as to who gets and who dont , If that the case , Vodacom and BEE is nothing less than apartheid was ,

Nick 9/5/2008 11:40:56 AM
How can you(Vodacom) say they are guna empower the poor Black people. You can't get water out of a stone? If they dont have money to feed and clothe themselves, how are they guna buy shares. This share deal is for stinking rich Blacks to get richer. The fact that they are excluding whites who help make Vodacom the company it is today, Sucks. I will be of To Virgin soon

HRHBeetjie 9/5/2008 11:42:12 AM
"if a white person can afford to buy shares, how poor are they really?" Does this mean the shares will be given to black people? If not, the same argument goes for black people.

Mandla 9/5/2008 11:43:48 AM
It doesn't help to reconcile n reconstruct poor with rich. We as black people we were stripped of our wellbeing and land as well, education and finances. taken to the township bcoz we were considered as (LABOUR RESOURES). Most of black people, are domestic workers working for the vwery same whites you claim to be poor. WE need to be careful of meaning of POOR, it differs with colour. Poor black person is living in a shack in a family of 8, whereas white person is own a flat, security supervisor.

Matrix 9/5/2008 11:44:07 AM
You state BEE was intended to uplift the poor, BUT does this by interpretation mean that that would disadvantage non-previously disadvantaged? My interpretation is/was that BEE should uplift the poor, BUT NOT make previously advantaged poor. In my opinion that is exactly what happened & therefore everyone is poorer. Read my previous comments, i.e. my view is that they did not invest because they were uneducated in terms of investment, only savings. Again my view is that most were corp workers.

s 9/5/2008 11:44:21 AM
thanks tshepo , we should all realise that poverty affects all races and it's our human duty to help all poor people.

Big R 9/5/2008 11:44:28 AM
to another service provider!! I am white and should not be excluded if SA is supposedly a racially undevided country!!

Nada 9/5/2008 11:45:20 AM
black ppl get preferential treatment in BEE deals because they were previously excluded in participating in the economy of this country and we need to address those inequalities that clearly exist. Poor whites are poor because they are stupid or could not take hold of the opportunities that were given to them since the turn of the past CENTURY!!!! So please, my heart bleeds lumpy custard for poor whites, but they will not get a share in BEE

Justice 9/5/2008 11:45:47 AM
Tshepo you raize very valid points. What about the non-politic whites and blacks that carried this country even through the apartheid days which as individuals had no part in the injustice? We are all today reaping the rewards from their achievements (science, technology infrastracture etc.) Some whites and blacks are even mentoring each other to transfer skills, expertiece and knowledge, but how do you reconcile this with BEE and unequal opportunity for only those white parents kids?

TC 9/5/2008 11:45:57 AM
Every cent spent on Vodacaom is support for discrimnation against whites. That's it, plain and simple!

vivjustice 9/5/2008 11:46:01 AM
The problem is that only the rich blacks can aquire shares widening the gap! I think its bullll and will never work our people should be educated and industries investing in skills dev! Then our people will be truly sustainably empowerd

Evert 9/5/2008 11:46:23 AM
"if you're a poor white, how did you get that way?" What a stupid question! Do you think that when white people were born the government automatically deposited a million into their bank account? Do you think all white people are born rich or just somehow become rich? How the hell did Sexwale and his brothers become billionaires so quickly? By working for it?

tiekies 9/5/2008 11:46:39 AM
Is nothing less than racism , I am busy working with alot of big busines owners (white) Working on a plan to let them het rid of all their black staff and only employ white people , further more only do business with white people ,We do no need govermunt contracts and there for dont need to be BEE and there for dont need to employ black people as simple as that !

Rhapelang 9/5/2008 11:47:29 AM
Who will still have the power after this share offering? Do anyone think poor blacks will really benefit from this hoax? For me it makes no difference if so-called poor whites buys shares. Just tax them on profits as well and use that money to uplift the real poor people! Why should we pay for something that is already ours!

ben 9/5/2008 11:47:59 AM
all blacks can buy these shares, including the super rich BEE boys and thus become even richer. it should be limited to poor blacks only otheriwse its pretty counter productive.

RE 9/5/2008 11:48:03 AM
All the white vodacom users cancel their contracts and simply support Cell C / MTN Let see the impact on their turnover

Pasta 9/5/2008 11:48:16 AM
I disagree with them. What happens 10 - 20 years down the line when poor black people (for whatever reason that caused them to be poor) demand sale of discounted shares of companies because they are poor? The point of BEE is to give previously disadvantaged people i.e. those who were not allowed to partake in the economy a chance to do so. This is not making them rich by any means because there is a risk (no matter small it is currently) that Vodacom will go under and investments lost.

Mzekezeke 9/5/2008 11:49:26 AM
BEE should only apply to previously dissadvantaged over the age of 25. No point in disadvantaging the youth. 25 and younger should be allowed to participate in all transactions. I agree with you i.t.o. age limit. This is not only fair, but will get rid of the animosity from the white community.

Currently Disadvantaged 9/5/2008 11:49:49 AM
my subscription.

tshepo 9/5/2008 11:50:50 AM
not only the previously poor(see the Chinesse). Some people are confusing the issue here. Im not poor yet i was previously disadvantaged, thus why im buying Vodacom shares for my pops who can't do it for himself because of the Apartheid regime. A poor white became poor for different reasons to a black person, the solution to that problem cannot be addressed through BEE.

Evert 9/5/2008 11:51:39 AM
What do you think i do with black beggars? Exactly the same as you so its fine bru!

Clare 9/5/2008 11:51:50 AM
I have no sympathy for these "poor whites". They had over 40 years of being given a better education and having the best jobs reserved for them. If they are still poor after that, then they just didn't take advantage of their opportunities. Vodacom is not running a charity for no-hopers. They are spreading the wealth to those who were really previously disadvantaged.

phine 9/5/2008 11:52:02 AM
Wake up everyone, stop this black and white stories. Vodacom is catching all by getting nice free advertising and lock in dedicated customer for long. If you are a Vodacom shareholder, would you by MTN???

Big R 9/5/2008 11:52:07 AM
does not include only blacks, but ALL other races EXCEPT white! Go check out the share details!! I'm moving to VirginMobile!! These racist vodacom PIGS!!

Cynical 9/5/2008 11:53:18 AM
Isn't it strange how many participants on this forum and columnists on New 24 regularly declare that SA is a "democracy" yet here we have a well-known company planning to issue shares to a section of the population based solely on race and on nothing else, with the full blessing of our "democratic" government. Democracy my ass.....

Chris 9/5/2008 11:53:56 AM
I don't know where you get the idea from that whites have the option of leaving the country? I'm a 4th generation white south african, I have no british passport and countries won't let me in just because I'm white. Poor white south africans are out of options and treating them like this is just as evil as apartheid was. Sugarcoat it as much as you like, but racism against whites is still racism.

charlie 9/5/2008 11:54:00 AM
Billionaires dont share their wealth with all the poor black people , Surely the Sexahwale's Motsepe's shaiks Etc can help all their poeple they so worried about out the dumps ? Would they is the qeustion or do they love their money to much ?

Gareth 9/5/2008 11:54:09 AM
I have a problem with these BEE deals, i don't care that's its for blacks only, but that principle that you're tied ito owning the shares for x amount of time before selling them off, that's not investment freedom. Who knows where this country is going to be in 5 years. With the Altech case, where will vodacom be seeing as they're telkom owned really. The shares are hold no real value in the open market. who's being empowered?

SM 9/5/2008 11:54:12 AM
The same question to be asked from the "alknowing DJ" is: "if you are a poor black, how did you get that way. The answer is going to be the same. Because someone was preventing me from earning a decent living. It is amazing how many people still practice, "2 wrongs = 1 right". If you are poor you are poor by any definition and colour. The hard earned democracy is just another word in a dictionary and not part of the new SA. How sad.

Sean 9/5/2008 11:55:20 AM
if you actually read the purchase documentation, it will be patently clear that the purchase of the shares is not aimed at the disenfranchised(past or present).R2500 for 100 shares is hardly empowerment. Its just another moneymaking scheme to make the rich richer and Vodacom compliant. Its a bloody joke

Jawellnofine 9/5/2008 11:56:28 AM
The poor white Afrikaaner rates amongst the poorest tree in the WORLD, not just SA. And for the question raised how can they afford shares, by the same token how to poor black people afford shares. BEE sucks man

makondo 9/5/2008 11:56:58 AM
unfortunately our black brothers living in the shacks are not the ones able to buy the shares. Please think for yourself the majority of black people that will be getting these shares are already well off. I agree on the motion that somehow all poor south africans black and white should be eligable for any sort of deal which shall cure poverty.

Lindo 9/5/2008 11:57:02 AM
I was under the impression the shares are for the previously disadvantaged ? those who were disadvantaged before 1994, it is assumed all whites were advantaged before 1994 and we dont know how true that is, Whites who live below the poverty line NOW shouldn?t even influence the BEE deal. WE are talking previously disadvantaged not currently disadvantaged by the way how disadvantaged are they if the can afford the shares? Tokyo is previously disadvantaged good people,and so are the rich black cats

HT 9/5/2008 11:57:40 AM
I agree with you that SOME of these whites begging at traffic lights are just lazy bums. And believe me those are too zonked out to even care for shares. But not all poor whites are like that. Go to Genadeplaas in Pretoria and see for yourself. If you won't give poor whites money, then should I now stop giving to poor blacks? We are all human inside, no matter the colour inside! Not that any colour poor people can afford those shares.

Black 9/5/2008 11:57:50 AM
BEE is a awarding people who were previously not given a chance, a chance to contribute, as well as have a stake in wealth terms in the country. Reason y it's limited to black is that, During apartheit white people benefited whether in support of apartheid or not.Problem is that it's not implemented well.If I was white I would also feel neglection from participation.Cant please every1.Unfair imbalance in wealth will encourage such programes.Most whites r wealth, Some blacks r rich.Most r poor.BEE

NotBiased 9/5/2008 11:58:07 AM
'Why should we pay for something that is already ours!' - What are talking bout Rhapelang? What is already yours. Surely you don't mean Vodacom. You may be indigenous to Africa but you did invent the cellphone or help build Vodacom. So what are you talking about. I for one am not for or against BEE but it is not intended to benefit the POOR but rather the all BLACKS hence the name Black Economic Empowerment.

Andre 9/5/2008 11:58:31 AM
PDI or typical African? Get's the goodies by making whitey the baddie and instigating the apartheid guit trip. THIS BEE IS UNETHICAL and will be challenged in future. Blacks NEVER paid taxes to the RSA government in 300 years. Disadvantaged? My arse. It's the open-hand-syndrome. I just cancelled 3 Vodacom contracts. The currently advantaged can support Vodacom. CellC...here I come!

VG 9/5/2008 11:58:44 AM
The point behind BEE is to re-distribute resources. I'm not denying the existence of poor whites or trying to minimise their plight. All I am saying is that prior to 94 black peole were not allowed to invest on the JSE BY LAW - even if they could afford to. Even now you will get poor blacks who will not be able to afford the offering. Schemes like this simply serve to increase the participation of black people on JSE and other parts of the economy because we are the majority in this country.

L 9/5/2008 11:59:45 AM
Are you dillusional? No really, are you? Yes, they had 40 years, which has since been taken away and given to a black person. So yes, there are going to be poor whites but you can't blame them for losing everything. Also, by your argument there should be no poor blacks now either. Idiot.

Paul Montele 9/5/2008 11:59:56 AM
Well, i'm it is a daily song for from a large section of white people to always moan and riducle BEE,AA yet they provide little solution to what needs to be done, all they are interested in is their narrow interest, we all know that this country hasn't transformed, look around you and tell me if this country is transformed? I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE DAY WHEN BLACKS REALLY LOOSE THEIR PATIENT, THEN YOU CAN COMPLAIN ABOUT THE REAL THING BECAUSE YOU WILL BE EVACAUTED,FOR NOW IT'S DONE CORRECTLY TILL WHEN

Terence 9/5/2008 12:00:08 PM
you are as much a foreinger in this country as i am your ancestors stole the land they have/had from the original inhabitants of south africa so dont come with this kak that your land was stolen that is an old story now well past its sell by date.

Steve 9/5/2008 12:00:14 PM
We have got a nation of people that like to destroy, burn and mutilate people and property when they disagree or cannot get their way. If we do not agree with BEE, boycott those organisation that encourage it, burn the place down etc. Go the the Vodacom building in JHB and burn it down.

mallencolly 9/5/2008 12:00:17 PM
You seem to be assuming that poor white people is a new thing. "Poor whites" have been around since, at the latest, the second boer war (read up on the last years of Genl Koos De la Rey). My mother-in-law grew up in a mud house with reed roof and cow dung floor. No Electricity or running water. She is considered "previously advantaged".

Dan 9/5/2008 12:00:59 PM
is to leave this country lock stock and barrel and let the blacks have everything for themselves. Your article is as warped as the whole BEE and AA concept. Apartheid was about the segregation of races the current regime is about legislating white people out of the country because there is no place for them here. Which in my book is exactly the same thing by another name. So Tshepo watch the animal you are raising and take a peek at all your poor brothers north of SA if you can't read the future.

JB 9/5/2008 12:01:42 PM
Will never see a sent from me, the wheel is turning.

Nada 9/5/2008 12:03:25 PM
we don't have to worry if the black person buying the shares is poor or not. Being black is good enough to qualify for BEE deals. I suggest those asking this question should familiarise themselves with the BEE policies. Also, MTN offered shared to black ppl as well a while ago. So for those wanting to move business away from vodacom because of this, consider Cell C as your only option. That is for now, until they announce a BEE shares deal .....

VG 9/5/2008 12:03:29 PM
I think its imp. to remember that "poverty" is ofetn relative. Yes, there have always been poor whites, but why? you cant blame poor education because relative to black people it was superb -so why did soem white people not take advantage of the opportunities that were actually reserved for them in the same way as black people are now?

tshepo 9/5/2008 12:03:53 PM
whites earn more per household than any other race in this country, that blacks are still the poorest of them all. that top positions in business are still held by whites, that whites are more educated resulting in more opportunities here and abroad. So what are whitey's complaining about?

Matrix 9/5/2008 12:04:25 PM
Challenge you, prove that non-whites are not MORE greedy. See crimes (steal to enrich themselves in many ways) like corruption, mostly by authorities & officials you support. Shame, it must be a hard life for you & co to be so blind. Think longer term, i.e. what you wish for you may get, then suffer the consequences/alternatively destroy all that is left. Short sighted indeed. Look towards Zim & you may find the real answers of what the future holds. TG we in NZ next year with no Fin ties to SA.

PP 9/5/2008 12:04:50 PM
SA is the most imbalanced country in most aspects.The laws of nature teach us that an imbalanced cause will eventually result bad results. We are all aware that if not all or most of whites have benefited from apartheid one way or another. A child born from a white family residually benefit from apartheid and a child born from a black family is residually disadvantge.For us as a country to move forward we need to enusure that imbalances are reduced or removed. I support BEE,AA,BBBEE

sharon 9/5/2008 12:05:12 PM
Like AA , BEE concessions are a necessary evil. Non White South Africans were disadvantaged because of institutionalised racism and policies designed to keep them poor and marginalised. The only way to level the playing field is through AA and BEE. Do you think Whites will willingly share the country's resources or let Blacks into positions of power in Corporate? Of course not, hence the need for formal policies to address the imbalance. Live with it.

RealityCheck 9/5/2008 12:05:33 PM
BEE was originally introduced to benefit the poor. You are a racist if you think there is a poor white person is any different that a poot black person. Poor is poor and has no race!

Dan 9/5/2008 12:06:45 PM
is to leave this country lock stock and barrel and let the blacks have everything for themselves. Your article is as warped as the whole BEE and AA concept. Apartheid was about the segregation of races the current regime is about legislating white people out of the country because there is no place for them here. Which in my book is exactly the same thing by another name. So Tshepo watch the animal you are raising and take a peek at all your poor brothers north of SA if you can't read the future.

Thomas 9/5/2008 12:06:56 PM
Is this really a deal for the poor or previously disenfranchised? Or is it a deal to increase the net worth of existing BEE millionaires?

anti BEE 9/5/2008 12:08:24 PM
I am finish with Vodacom. I will take my business somewhere else. If white people are not allowed to get shares, then they do not deserve any white people's business. Vodacom made their money in the new South Africa. They do not have any "racial" money. previously advantaged.

bob 9/5/2008 12:11:42 PM
With the current IQ levels of certain race groups and there attitudes they will continue to blame everthing and anything on there short comings in the last three hundred years....Stand up and be counted as a contributor to the Earth....hand outs aint going to make you lose your outlook on life

cate 9/5/2008 12:12:59 PM
"If you are a poor white, how did you get that way?" The fact is that not all whites have been well off, but may have enjoyed job security. Now that that is gone, some of these guys are really poor. These were not the sort of people in a position to invest much in the first place. All we are doing here is "growing the middle class" but excluding whites. The greater divide amongst South Africans is along the lines of class, rather than race. We should work harder at closing this divide.

CC 9/5/2008 12:13:01 PM
Thought provoking but sadly only the black elite will benefit as with all empowerment deals in SA - the poor and middle class who should be the ones to benefit will not be able to buy substantial share blocks. For those who are p...d off take a stand and move to another service provider !

Oom_Kosie 9/5/2008 12:13:34 PM
tshepo, to quote Jimmy Manyi of the Black Management Forum - "One should be careful of statistics." You are saying that because some white people are rich, it is impossible to be poor? Just because the aggregate average for whites is higher than that for blacks, it does NOT mean that there are no poor whites. It's basic maths...

bj 9/5/2008 12:15:04 PM
It will ontinue in the poor areas becasue simply put poor people have more children then the rich. This happens all over the world. So whilst the economy may grow it can never hope to catch up with the population growth of the poor. The very people who cannot afford to have children have th emost and so groom another generation to abject poverty. If you really want to stop poverty peole must be educated to have two or less children, ful stop.

Moshale 9/5/2008 12:15:18 PM
It's amazing how white people are sickened by the BBBEEE concept...looking back (and I know all whities are gona say..."why dwell on the past? we are in a democratic country now, let's focus our energies to the future") at the apartheid days, there was no white person who was unemployed to such an extend that an 18yrs old boy will be your own father's boss (a father who is 45yrs and has been working in that factory for more than 20yrs). Now it's black people's turn to shine-live with it!!!

be fair now, the time is up 9/5/2008 12:16:38 PM
This a clear signal for all second class citizens. White People have been shown another red card for the long effects of apartheid. The government is keeping racism alive by employing such biased ideas alive . I invite all , to witness the White settlements and witness for yourself the devastation Affirmative action has caused on these poor people.A poor person is a poor person.There is no colour for the poor yet there is very loud colours for the rich.

colin 9/5/2008 12:17:21 PM
Inclusiveness only becomes relevant in the MEDIA when Whites are excluded like in the case above. Our economy is still structured in a manner whereby the majority of South Africans are excluded to partake or derive a benefit from it. Bulk of Black South Africans operates in the Informal Sector as access to the formal economy is limited. Our economy is still in the hands of the master of the past and transformation of it is an imperative. Access to the economy should be open to all South African as it will lead to growth in our economy which will benefit all South Africans. I also would like to know were did all those so called poor whites hide pre 1994 ? they had over 300 years to enrich themselves - they probably the lazy ones.

VG 9/5/2008 12:17:27 PM
at no point did I say BEE was intended to uplift the poor -that is a commonn misconception. BEE was intended to increase the participation of BLACK/COLOURED/INDIAN and now CHINESE people who had been previously excluded. Some previously disadvanted may in fact hav been v. rich

colin 9/5/2008 12:18:27 PM
Inclusiveness only becomes relevant in the MEDIA when Whites are excluded like in the case above. Our economy is still structured in a manner whereby the majority of South Africans are excluded to partake or derive a benefit from it. Bulk of Black South Africans operates in the Informal Sector as access to the formal economy is limited. Our economy is still in the hands of the master of the past and transformation of it is an imperative. Access to the economy should be open to all South African as it will lead to growth in our economy which will benefit all South Africans. I also would like to know were did all those so called poor whites hide pre 1994 ? they had over 300 years to enrich themselves - they probably the lazy ones.

Lebo 9/5/2008 12:18:38 PM
Who ever has money to buy shares should be allowed to puchase them, not just blacks,if that is the case then we are going back to the old days.

PP 9/5/2008 12:18:39 PM
Can maybe everybody who is against BEE provide us with solutions to erode existing inequalities in SA. We are all open to ideas but those ideas must in the best interest of South Africa.

HT 9/5/2008 12:18:42 PM
Maybe you both should pack your bags and leave this country. You are both the same type of hateful that doesn't solve a thing. Dan, you are what make people like Paul hate the rest of us. Paul, you are what make people like Dan hate the rest of you. And it is the rest that doesn't deserve what you cause.

J 9/5/2008 12:19:54 PM
As a (black) foreigner reading up on SA I am just wondering why whites are not allowed to have "whites only" camping terrains (seem to remember something in the news?), but blacks can have "blacks only" purchasing schemes without any problems? Surely this is exactly the same thing as aparheid? Surely middle class blacks should now (and have been) able to partake in the economy and should not be scared to compete,without government assistance? Ie black middle class should no longer qualify as BEE?

Skinny Cat 9/5/2008 12:20:26 PM
Lets say 70% of black people in SA are really poor, it means you have 30 odd million black poeple needing empowerment. If 30% of whites are really poor you have 1 million white people who need empowerment. Do you see the problem here? The fact is...the number of rich white people are far less than the amount of rich black people ALREADY!!! BEE is outdated and needs to be ended really soon.

tshepo 9/5/2008 12:22:34 PM
yes there are poor whites, but they were not previously disadvantaged thus BEE is not for them. Now if you were talking about scrapping AA for anybody under 25 i would see your point, but being angry becuz you can't buy shares whilst you had a 100yrs to do so won't get you my sympathy. BEE stay's the way it is, if i have to force myself to vote JZ to ensure that so be it!

bekkie1 9/5/2008 12:23:15 PM
How did the blacks become poor? They have had the same opportunities. When I see a black beggar at the robot, I think you lasy bum, I toll up my window and not give a cent.

Rhapelang 9/5/2008 12:25:44 PM
My feeling is that Vodacom is raising cash and if they can get brownie points by making as if it's a BEE deal, how can they lose. The only people really benefiting is Vodacom, and they try this by patronizing me and my fellow Africans they can go fly a kite! Give us the shares, and give us real say in this state controlled company or leave it! Because the people as the real owners of state are the real owners of Vodacom!

Filemon 9/5/2008 12:28:20 PM
Offer the shares to their EXISTING customers regardless of race. Why should anybody else benefit from the money paid to vodacom by their customers?

Mac 9/5/2008 12:28:35 PM
The whole idea of this BBBEEE deal is to improve Vodacom's BEE rating. It has NOTHING to do with empowering ANYONE - black, white or the poor. It has EVERYTHING to do with securing government contracts - read: MONEY and PROFITS.

Filemon 9/5/2008 12:30:47 PM
Offer the shares to their EXISTING customers regardless of race. Why should anybody else benefit from the money paid to vodacom by their customers? Perhaps PDI's get them for less than CDI's

Clare 9/5/2008 12:30:50 PM
No, I am not "dillusional" - that isn't even a word. Yet another person who wasted all that free education!

TTBoy 9/5/2008 12:31:01 PM
...Lets turn it into Poor Economic Empowerment! BEE has benefitted the usual ANC connected cronies who "haven't struggled to be poor"... but conveneiently forgot about the poor amongst their very own people! @Rhapelang: you are in serious need of a snot klap to stop you from making stupid ignorant statements

Pheello 9/5/2008 12:31:18 PM
If they (poor whites) can afford to buy shares. For a poor black person that money is for a grocery of the whole month. How poor are these whites compared to Blacks in terms of the Gini coefficient? This smacks of opportunism by Dr. Hermann and his ilks because they can talk. What about Blacks who suffer in silence and are not known in squatter camps such as Alexandra, Ramaphosaville,Diepsloot? They don't grab headlines but suffer in silence more the poor whites.

Pheello 9/5/2008 12:31:32 PM
If they (poor whites) can afford to buy shares. For a poor black person that money is for a grocery of the whole month. How poor are these whites compared to Blacks in terms of the Gini coefficient? This smacks of opportunism by Dr. Hermann and his ilks because they can talk. What about Blacks who suffer in silence and are not known in squatter camps such as Alexandra, Ramaphosaville,Diepsloot? They don't grab headlines but suffer in silence more than poor whites.

Poor or Poor 9/5/2008 12:31:44 PM
Poor is measured base don what you own and what your income is. MANDLA go visit the white squatter camps and you will see. And MXHOSAKAZI I wonder what you would happen if the whites do the same with begging blacks who ask for food at our doors on a daily basis because they say government is doing nothing for them! Common Poor is Poor! Anyway where will the poor get money to buy a long term investment like shares? What is the gain for them? I am missing something in this whole scheme!

VG 9/5/2008 12:32:28 PM
Of course, in principle this whole idea is contentious, but really - most BEE schemes are v restrictive and over the long term may not even offer any vaue -look at the Nedbank deal. Frankly, it is a far better idea to buy the shares outrigt and not as part of a discounted scheme; then you can buy and sell as you please instead of being locked in for 10 years.I mean really, people will moan about anything in this country

Andre 9/5/2008 12:33:17 PM
I have never met one Affirmative Action appointee! Amazing. All blacks are adament they deserve their positions and got it on merit. Like the Vodacom shares and riches it will bring to blacks in AFRICA. One day when someone asks how they got the money, they will say they worked for it. Yes Moshale. I must jut live with your pathetic lies. Imagine what RSA can be without your parasitic effect......

SM 9/5/2008 12:35:15 PM
I trust you will personally "EVACAUTE" the whites. Thanks for the warning I will be waiting for you.

Justice 9/5/2008 12:36:25 PM
So u mean there are only "no-hopers" among whites? but peoples from all other races are 100% deserved? why also just spread to previously disadvantaged? are the currently disadvantaged not in dire need? Stop thinking along racial lines why should we who contribute to build this nation and voted against apartheid be excluded?

Sinudeity 9/5/2008 12:36:33 PM
Thanks for your heart-felt sentiment there. You are thick for not getting what we are saying. BEE is ONLY affecting 0.1% of the black folks. Its the rich black folks, that keep getting richer. The poor white/black folks are STILL poor. BEE in the US, helps the black folks, because they constitute +- 10% of the population, just like us South African white folks. Black/White owned companies ALL have the AA/BEE quota, employing new black workers. Why then, just advantage the black one?

Tina 9/5/2008 12:36:40 PM
I will NOT be renewing my contracts with Vodacom - will be cancelling all 3 and take biz elsewhere!!!!!

M 9/5/2008 12:39:03 PM
I could take your words and just turn the around. I.e. all black people that are still poor haven't taken the advantage they are getting since '95 to become rich, so they are too stupid to do so, so they shouldn't get anything at all. Racists idiots like you make me sick!

Sinudeity 9/5/2008 12:39:10 PM
BEE would be PDEE IF you were right. Unfortunately, the ONLY black folks REALLY prospering from BEE, are those with ANC ties. So LETS CUT the bullshit, and just call it ANC-EE. Tokyo sexwale is an IDIOT. His wife and kids are white, but he wants BEE status for them. Cant he afford to put them through varsity? What about judge hlophe, who organised a bursary for his son, while he drives a porche.

Boggom 9/5/2008 12:39:56 PM
What really strike me is that everybody could not believe that there were sign boards up in public plces stating "Whites Only". Now, it is just the other way around and it is not called rascism. How is that a better arrangement than apartheid? Sounds the same to me anyway.

S2 9/5/2008 12:42:13 PM
"I am a previously advantaged white" who has never had the chance of owning discounted shares and even if the Vodacom deal was open to everyone, would not be able to afford buying the shares. So if I am previously advantage person, how does a previously disadvantaged person afford the shares now.

Nick 9/5/2008 12:42:36 PM
If you earn less that say R1500 then you should be alowed to buy these shares. It doesnt matter whether you White Blake Pink or Blue. The whole point of this deal is to improve the quality of life for the poor. There are plent of rich Whites as well as Rich Blacks.

Stars in my eyes 9/5/2008 12:43:49 PM
I agree with the concept and ideology of BBBEE. I think its a good idea. The sad part of the majority of BBBEE deals is that the rich get richer. We like to jump up and down about silly things like this Vodacom deal, but what about the so called BBBEE deals and community benefit projects that essentially 'steal' from the communities which they claim to uplift! We have gotten ourselves so tangled up in political jargon that the real issues remain in the shadows!

S2 9/5/2008 12:46:29 PM
And by the way I went a private school in Pretoria, where over 50 % of my class mates were Black, coloreds, Indians, Chinese and etc and get what, they all were from wealthy families, my parents broke their backs to keep me in that school, why because were I lived there was no schools. Strange grew up in the same place but experienced something so different !

Panda 9/5/2008 12:48:13 PM
A while ago I made a decision to help poor whites only. All the agression towards poor whites on this forum has just confirmed I have decided right.You can have all the Vodacom shares you want - we as whites don't need them - we are clever enough to work hard and make LOTS of money PANDA (Previously Advantaged Now disAdvantaged)

Bang Bang 9/5/2008 12:51:59 PM
To those black people who think thre are no poor white people living in shacks, please arrange to meet me and I will personally take you to a white township where white people live in shacks. Of course if you willing to accept it.

Tebzano 9/5/2008 12:52:55 PM
BEE Sucks BEE Sucks, with all these locks I don't see how anyone can say they are empowered. All it?s done is create pseudo rich Black people at the detriment of enterpreneurship.We need schemes that rewards creativity and enterpreneurship. So instead of using these Billions we should rather ask the companies to put the money in developing entrepreneur. (Not SETAs) That is the cornerstone of real economic empowerment.

Andrew 9/5/2008 12:52:56 PM
You guys make me sick. If I see a poor black woman on the street asking for money, I give what I can, I do the same for a white woman. I realise how lucky I am, and will continue to share irrespective of race. Those of you that are guided by your racial origins are sick and bitter, and I'm glad not to call any of you "friend", never mind "brother".

D 9/5/2008 12:54:55 PM
I just want to know when it will end. I fully understand the need to uplift the previously disadvantaged, and all that term involves, but will it just be for this generation? Surely at some point all 'poor' people will be poor for the same reasons and the past can't be blamed anymore? Somebody enlighten me please...

Sinudeity 9/5/2008 12:55:22 PM
You guys DO NOT realise this. But you are IMPLEMENTING APARTHEID all over again. That exact same system you faught so hard against. But, out of your payback attitude, you dont find anything wrong with it. Just like condemning a white man killing a black man, but when xenophobia happened, you didn't give a shit. You guys are NOT thinking straight.

EvylShnukums 9/5/2008 12:56:17 PM
During the 2nd Anglo Boer War many Boer farms were burnt, livestock killed, economy crippled. Schooling was not a priority. My grandparents did odd jobs (people?s laundry, caretaker @ the 1 room school). They could not send their kids to university. So the ?superior education and opportunities? came down, for my mom, to leaving school after Std 8 to work @ the PO for R10pm. This may come as a surprise, but some whites have always been poor, and not all of them because they were useless.

Chantelle 9/5/2008 12:56:48 PM
There are also many black beggars at the robots. I give to them as well as the whites. I don't see race the way you do. There are many poor whites, living more than 8 people in a shack. Bethlehem just outside Pretoria where Jacob Zuma's been, is one of them. We should start helping all the poor and stop being so selective! It's what is inside a person, that counts, not his/her skin colour! The way you've been commenting, seems so racist. And I PAID for my education, Clare, pre-1994.

Annie 9/5/2008 12:57:51 PM
Let's become WEE companies and support each other. We will offer & receive great service and not have to tolerate incompetence. I know of one company who clearly state they are WEE, and they obtain governent work. Why - because they are dependable. Make you think ?

Stunned 9/5/2008 12:57:58 PM
How'd poor whites get that way? The conception that all whites have always had money and every advantage stuns me. My mom was a single parent who had to leave school in Std 5 to work cause her parents were too poor to keep her there. She battled to find jobs with a reasonable wage because of her education. After being retrenched for the 3rd time 5 years ago, earning the grand wage of R4000pm, she is now battling to survive on nothing but a government pension. There was no money to put away/save.

Andrew 9/5/2008 12:58:13 PM
You do realise that a LOT of us white people also fought for the abolishment of the apartheid system, dont you? White people are NOT all evil, despite what the "black media" tries to propagate.

Presently Disadvantaged 9/5/2008 1:04:08 PM
The only way (apparently so, now nearly 15 years after apartheid) for blacks to compete with whites is for there to be an unfair playing field. Bias. I have canceled my vodacom contract purely because of this racial discrimination against anyone not black and I know Im not the only one. RACIST FOOLS!!

bruce 9/5/2008 1:04:54 PM
White people were responsible for developing and building SA to the country it once was. If whites were the ones developing and building companies, businesses and an economy, why shouldn?t they be the one benefiting from it? Why don?t you blacks build your own companies? Now, typical, you steal from the white man. BEE and AA is theft of contracts, jobs (which you don?t do anyway) and whites shares and hard earned riches.

tshepo 9/5/2008 1:06:28 PM
Tpkyo's a black man and his wife's white. How are their KIDS white? Unless he's a stepdad your really confusing me here. Please clarify!

TruthBeTold 9/5/2008 1:07:24 PM
in the process of finalising a few things, and will be opening my own business. Nothing big or fancy, but I will need a good few employees. I can promise you now, I am going to employ anyone, so long as they AREN'T black. I am sick of this BEE nonsense. So my company will be made up of all SA races EXCEPT black. My little UP YOURS to the govermunts BEE policies.

Realist 9/5/2008 1:08:59 PM
Since when would any poor have the spare money to invest in a long term share plan, ( The lock is is quite onerous I believe). Let them in and see how many if any take it up. If it where PDI they should be allowed , but the "B" part certainly excludes them.

charlie 9/5/2008 1:11:56 PM
I am not renewing them !!!

Blikkies 9/5/2008 1:12:06 PM
Well said Tshepo- However, i fear that the sale of shares to the poor will be a poor investment! With this industry going where its going, i doubt the rich would buy shares in a company that has a huge monopoly in the market when around the corner, there are numerous competitors who will be staking a claim on the market with cut throat prices- On the other hand, getting all the poor into a share holding is i suppose a good way to try hold onto future business...Eeesh!

Same of the same 9/5/2008 1:12:30 PM
Yes, I can see my Indian colleague with his new Audi A4, MPV, brand new 2.5 million double story house, two additional houses running to obtain these shares, same as the previous shares handed out by the other BIG companies. He'll be back to brag on how disadvantaged he is and showing me the R 10 000 worth of shares he just bought. What a joke, Racism and nothing more. Yes, I am unfortunately born White....

Annie 9/5/2008 1:17:37 PM
Vodacom will have the last laugh. Be carefull, be very carefull. Even if I could by some shares, there's no ways I would do so!!!!!!

Karen 9/5/2008 1:21:48 PM
I am also going to cancel my Vodacom subscriptions and I'm going to tell them why too. I am so sick of all this racism. I avoid all companies that advertise that they are BEE compliant as if that is something to be proud of. I must still find another job though before I can resign from the extremely racist company I work for. They offer bursaries and accelerated career advancement etc etc but the application forms all state that whites need not apply!! Disgusting 0 makes me sick to think I actually thought apartheid was unfair and that everybody should be included only to find that when it finally arrived I would the one excluded and my children would be suffering. I thought blacks would join us not that they would grab everything and exclude us.

EvylShnukums 9/5/2008 1:23:38 PM
From both sides. Not everyone had the same opportunities under the old government, just as not everyone has the same opportunities under the new. I for one don't feel particularly maligned by blacks-only shares schemes but it is basically discriminatory. I would be all for BEE if it really empowered people, but it seems an excuse for govt to give contracts to their (rich) cronies. Better education, a safer environment and improved social services are better ways to level the playing field.

Annie 9/5/2008 1:26:51 PM
Can I come and work for you ? I work hard, am at the office by 06h15, have a good attitude, am customer focused and will go the extra mile anytime. Let's stick together - we don't need this BEE nonsense !

dh 9/5/2008 1:27:17 PM
Let's not get so upset! BEE is necessary, and will not last forever because the line has to be drawn somewhere and there will come a point when there are so many 'exceptions' that have to be made it will all become too much to handle. Also, how many of you have been directly disadvantaged by BEE, and in what way? do tell, i'm interested...

LM 01 9/5/2008 1:27:37 PM
These BEE Share schemes usually work on the basis where you "buy" the shares for a discounted Price (say 20% of Market Value), you don?t have to pay anything the, you just owe the company the 20%. The future dividend declared over the next 5 or so years is then used to repay your loan. (Its set of the loan and you don?t get it) after the 5 or so years you have access to the shares. Thus you don?t always need cash to buy in; you only need to be black

Black 9/5/2008 1:31:04 PM
There is nothing wrong with BEE,However the manner in which its implemented is false. Now,you can see from all these comments that this generation is doomed.We all are racist and have absorbed too much.We are not addressing the problem.Only ridicle one another again and again. Maybe its time that we think about our kids and the next generation. Note that BEE will not be here forever,but is racially justifiyable -I'm black.Obviously it would not be if I was White.We must all grow up & think BIG

Frannie 9/5/2008 1:32:38 PM
A lot of Black South Africans have no idea about politics in SA during Apartheid. Understandably so, but please read up before making inaccurate statements. There was inter-White politics that negatively affected some whites then, which determined where or what work they could get based on their political views. So please take note that not all whites benefited from Apartheid as many claim. Their political views did excluded them from being part of the "Apartheid Advantaged" in many ways. FBJ

AJ 9/5/2008 1:36:17 PM
Black Economic Empowerment means rich and poor blacks. Poor economic empowerment means poor blacks and poor whites. It is not difficult to figure out which is of more value to this country going forward.

kakabooi 9/5/2008 1:36:30 PM
Thsepo. Go to the blog Answerit and enter my world where I expose parasites and how they do it. I have managed to prove that AA/EE/BEE is immoral, unethical and reverse discrimination. If you can stomach the truth.

AJ 9/5/2008 1:42:16 PM
that are excluded from deals will have to start dealing solely with each other to make up for the exclusion. That will hurt black companies in the process. I would rather support a white business now as they have extra hurdles to climb.

AJ 9/5/2008 1:48:43 PM
As long as Sexwale with BEE billions regards his children as eligible for BEE handouts, one cannot blame Solidarity for fighting for whites with little. One of them at least has a point.

Frannie 9/5/2008 1:48:54 PM
Racial discrimination shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, religion,descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life. I rest my case...

Clare 9/5/2008 1:49:53 PM
Firstly, no, not all whites are no-hopers. Only those who have wasted the opportunities they have been given. Secondly, what has the contribution we whites may have made got to do with Vodacom? Again, they are not a charitable institution. They are a business! You have already had your reward in a good free education, job reservation and the ability to buy shares any time you wanted to!

Masese 9/5/2008 1:55:04 PM
Matjila, you actually can not afford to see white suffering. Vodacom BEE is not for everybody. It is for Black who have money, otherwise where will a poor man on the street who does not have money to buy bread, afford to buy vodacom shares? Your suggestion should be for Vodacom to give people this share like Absa did with Sexwale and his allies. Wake up, this is our time.

Karen 9/5/2008 1:57:11 PM
What is all this nonsense about BEE and AA being necessary. That is like a marrigae councellor recommending that the husband does all the household chores and cooking on his own for an indefinite period of time to make up for the fact that he hasn't helped before. Of course it doesn't work, just puts that one shoe on the other foot and makes the party that was happy before unhappy now and vice-versa. If you make things equal from now on things will get better until then the roles are just reversed. Hope you are listening all you "Proudly BEE compliant' (racist) companies.

Karen 9/5/2008 1:59:37 PM
While I totally understand your feeling its actually just doing the same thing again. I would back you all the way if you just employed the best person for the job irrespective of race. That is all I want, just be colour-blind and see the person under the skin. Will that day ever come, before Jesus comes?

Bang Bang 9/5/2008 2:09:02 PM
Just sit back and let BBBEE fund your bank account and occasionally hurl racial abuse at white people telling them how they benefitted from a system demolished 14 years ago. It's all about revenge the only thing is the people responsible for your hardships are not the people you getting back at.

Clare 9/5/2008 2:11:21 PM
When you say your paid for your education, I presume that you mean your parents paid for you to attend a private school (as did mine). But they didn't have to, you could have had a decent, government school education that was so cheap as to be virtually free simply because your skin was white. What BEE is trying to do is to redress this imbalance.

Thabo 9/5/2008 2:20:06 PM
You're right you have to learn to live with it. It is a mild form of REVENGE. It will teach whiteys not to discriminate against other races anymore. When some of you emigrate, do not colonise the indigenous people of your new found land of honey.

sarah 9/5/2008 2:21:39 PM
I attended a public school, and we had to pay school fees. Not sure where you got your info from. My life never got handed freebies, and my folks sure couldn't afford private school...

seeker 9/5/2008 2:23:47 PM
All these people saying things like 'Now its our time', are delusional. Simply because you get handouts does not make it 'your' time. In fact, the irony is, it will never be your time. No matter how much you deny whites, we will always have more than you (for obvious reasons). Worst case scenario, we will take all that we have, and leave (hopefully not). So, with this attitude to life, it will never be 'your' time.

Reasonable Whitey 9/5/2008 2:29:01 PM
First, it is not necessarily about "poor black/white", it is about affording the black majority the opportunity to have a stake in the economy. We can not advocate to all start on a clean slate and equal opportunity, how can you be running for 100 years and expect someone running for 14 years to quickly catch up. It is also true, if you are poor you can not afford to by shares wheter white or black, hence my first point.7.8 % of pop but high average sal. We whites like to squeel for nothing.

Ims 9/5/2008 2:29:20 PM
my mom kept 3 jobs to put her children through school! at 16 we all started working saturdays and holidays to pay for our own little necessities to help her! we and no one i know got anything for free, let alone an education! and still we do not own any shares???? and I am the youngest nearly hitting 40!!!

Mzekezeke 9/5/2008 2:35:32 PM
I wish your compatriots should have the same perspective as you, it is refreshing to read something like this.

-SK 9/5/2008 2:36:41 PM
Why is that everytime there is well written and balanced submission people resort to name calling, racism and disrespect for others. Fact: number of poor black people as compared to the number of poor white is massive. Fact: Vodacom BEE scheme does not empower poor black people. Solidarity's fight for poor white males is pointless and meaningless because it will not empower poor whites. The two groups don?t have the money and if they do have money, then are certainly not poor.

HT 9/5/2008 2:36:43 PM
an upper limit additional to the lower limit. Meaning that the rich blacks should also be excluded from these deals. Then continue to exclude the whites (reasonably, whatever that may be), but at least you make it a fair opportunity. And give the less rich black people the opportunity to learn about business, etc. Wouldn't this be more constructive than enriching the rich and spiting the whites?

Pheello Oliphant 9/5/2008 2:37:00 PM
Its astonishing nowadays! Chinese go to court in order to benefit. Poor whites now want shares,next time Pakistanis, Portuguese, Italians, Greeks and Nigerians will be demanding shares parading their lawyers.I'm not xenophobic but I can see its going there.I feel proud these days to be Black, everyone wants to be Black when it the past.I was an object of scorn..I'm afraid of money!!

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