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AA emotions clouding fact?

by
2008-11-25 08:19

Len van Heerden, News24 User

The issue of Affirmative Action and Black Economic Empowerment is a very emotive debate. Unfortunately, it tends to be left to those ignorant of the facts to make a point against it.

The argument goes like this. "I am a white male (and hence have to be assumed to have all the necessary skills and qualifications) who is denied a legitimate opportunity to be employed in South Africa because a black person (who we assume only got the job due to colour) was employed instead."

Stories are told of how a family member, friend, daughter or uncle was denied an opportunity when their 55 degrees were overlooked in favour of a black person who could not even use a pen.

The story teller is often aware of facts that should remain secret, because once again they know someone in Human Resources or Recruiting who gives them all these details.

Reality

The problem with this argument is reality. Many companies in the country still employ middle-aged whites who do not even have Matric. Many of these people were there as a result of white affirmative action and do not know what a university or college looks like. They are the ones who moan about affirmative action.

If you think about it, no company will let go someone with a skill they need. So, it goes without saying that those who are being let go are allowed to leave because the company does not value their perceived input. Yes, they might be competent, but no company gets rid of the A, B or even C employees, but would be delighted to off-load the lazy bums who do not even understand that it is not good conduct to pass on spam using the network in the office.

Then there is the issue of ignorance. You will notice that they often mistake AA and BEE. Furthermore, they tend to be ignorant about what AA actually means and in what cases it is to be implemented. What is scary is that these people pass themselves as experts in their fields, but are simply ignorant about our laws. Affirmative Action applies only in cases where both candidates are qualified and have the minimum qualifying criteria for the job.

When someone breaks the law, we blame the person and not the law, but when a company hires an incompetent black person, then we blame the law and not the company. Where is the logic and balance in that?

Tight ship

South Africa has, with incompetent AA and BEE candidates, managed to run a tight ship leading to growth for the past 10 or so years and it is predicted that while the economic problems we have will bite, that we are not worse off than most. Japan and Iceland's economies are in a recession. No affirmative action or BEE there.

Major banks in America and Europe have folded and now require assistance. Three car makers in the USA are expecting a handout. I presume that these companies must be paying for their AA policies. Oh wait, they are run by white males who hold almost all the senior positions.

Nedbank in South Africa experienced terrible times before Boardman took over. I presume we can also blame AA? What about the companies that have attempted to screw the South African consumer i.e Tiger Brands, etc? Oh wait, it was under the directorship of a white male as do many of the companies that have been accused by the Competition Commission of price fixing. In 1994, the South Africa was facing bankruptcy despite the fact that it was run by whites males for white males too?

For an Auditor, Werner van Der Merwe shows remarkable ignorance or arrogance in not acknowledging that the biggest beneficiaries of AA have been white women. Does he consider them incompetent or is this label reserved only for black people?

It is always fascinating that each time someone whinges about Affirmative Action, they show remarkable ignorance on the subject and simply use their prejudice and illogical emotions to find likeminded disciples who will agree with anything that feeds their ignorance and bias.

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tshepo 11/25/2008 8:30:53 AM
like i always say, stop racism and AA won't be necessary. The minority in this country believe all things "white" are perfect, superiority complex i tell you. And that is the very definition of RACISM.

Shane 11/25/2008 8:34:04 AM
Its ignorance that helps you create points on how to attack a system that worked yes there were faults but never did the rand weaken or our infrastructure decrease to the levels they are now if we have to blame a company which company do we blame for the state our country is in. Oh wait thats probably ignorance now!! The fact is people are being employed not for their qualifications but their skin colour and double the money must be paid to fix those mistakes where is the logic!!!!

Ryan G 11/25/2008 8:34:12 AM
Well Said Len. If people take the time to understand things before jumping to conclusions, then we wont have that much anger and friction amongst our people. Bad practice by companies is not the fault of the law itself.

Punk27 11/25/2008 8:34:56 AM
This article is well stated! It certainly puts a huge dent in many people's arguments...

Ryan G 11/25/2008 8:38:55 AM
Well Said Len. If people take the time to understand things before jumping to conclusions, then we wont have that much anger and friction amongst our people. Bad practice by companies is not the fault of the law itself.

Roy Johnson 11/25/2008 8:39:05 AM
No,no,no,have you tried to register a white school leaver into technical institution(with an exemption matric)and are told we only accept 5% whites ? It goes deeper than your glossy outlook.

ANDY 11/25/2008 8:39:13 AM
Even with BEE in Place major private sector companies are run by white people.Still a lot of companies employ whites with less education than a black man.These companies always require Degrees from Black people and Experience.BEE has brought upon good in this country than the bad we choose to see.Well said!

Ian 11/25/2008 8:39:52 AM
A well thought out argument! But when applied to Government, it falls flat. Why were all whites encouraged to leave their jobs after 1994? Now we have the situation where there is a shortage of teachers, nurses, police and doctors,all of which the Government is panicking to make up.Had the core remained, it would have been relatively easy to bring the so-called "previously disadvantaged" on board seamlessly.

phil 11/25/2008 8:40:11 AM
White males who blame everything on AA forget that they went to the border to die for a government that had a policy called job reservation. Job reservation was much more rigid than affirmative action and was responsible for the skills shortage we have today.

Stryder 11/25/2008 8:41:40 AM
I am a 30 something White male with a degree. I have never had a problem finding employment (Although I have been told more than once that I was the right person for the job, but BEE scorecards etc etc). So I realised I just had to play harder for the smaller piece of the employment pie. Has it affected me? Absolutely, I have worked alongside AA candidates and this is my take. They rarely are the best person for the job, and rarely stick around long enough to learn the job...

Stryder 11/25/2008 8:44:26 AM
they were given an opportunity to learn because they get head hunted. AA is a form of market control (not unlike price fixing). So what happens to the salaries budget, AA candidates get more in order to try and make them stay. But all that is just one aspect. What I have aproblem with is the fact that it is Naked Racism. It is discrimantion based on race. The act of asking me what my race is when I apply for a position is Naked Racism and until it stops South Africa will NEVER be untied.

Karl 11/25/2008 8:45:17 AM
It's a matter of principal & not practice. The law should in principal be equal for all & allow everyone (including whites) the same opportunities as others. The AA story happened to me & others and I can cite countless examples that are NOT mysterious uncles with 55 degrees. If there are incompetent middle-aged white managers without qualifications then it's fair to loose out against skilled blacks, Chinese, coloureds, etc. & vice versa. All we AA critics want is equality and not more racism.

Stryder 11/25/2008 8:47:26 AM
"When someone breaks the law, we blame the person and not the law, but when a company hires an incompetent black person, then we blame the law and not the company. Where is the logic and balance in that?" The difference here Len is that the law states that a company has to have a certain number of Black employees, what do you think happens when there are not enough?

dax 11/25/2008 8:47:55 AM
say nomore, well put, well said . If you dont mind I will from time to time plagiarize yr article as you have put the point so well.

Thukzy 11/25/2008 8:48:01 AM
Well said ! Are you really white?

Linds 11/25/2008 8:48:34 AM
Many thanks Len for dispelling the misperception about AA. I wish white people could understand just how difficult it is for young blacks to get jobs. Many of the black ladies packing your groceries at chain stores and even some taxi drivers have university degrees but can't find proper jobs. White people must also start settling for the mundane jobs and stop complaining.

Filemon 11/25/2008 8:49:07 AM
It is not AA basically the problem but rather how it is implemented. Eskom is a prime example. White engineers were replaced by black accountants and hence our power problems which have created a negative effect on our economy, lost billions of forex and created more poverty. The implementation has to be adjusted to provide for skills. Agree though that unskilled whites only have themselves to blame for their victim mentality.

Oom_Kosie 11/25/2008 8:49:44 AM
And please, do not quote Jimmy Manyi's idiotic rhetoric on how "white women are the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action." His statistics are a JOKE. This has been proven by Solidarity, Markinor, Markdata and by Wits University and still you insist on believing Manyi?

sharon 11/25/2008 8:50:56 AM
Thank You Len for a brilliant and comprehensive piece.I can't add much more except to say that it galls me when middle aged Whites say they worked their way up.They got in the door by virtue of their colour& worked their way up a system designed in their favour.I needed to get a degree before any doors opened.Interesting that I have never met a White person with a useful skill,experience or degree who can't get work.The moaners are those who don't have what it takes.

VG 11/25/2008 8:51:23 AM
As an economist, I see the numbers daily and the continued skewness in the distribution of employment and unemployment is grotesque, but Len, you of all people should know that many people (esp on this site!)routinely select only the facts that justify their viewpoint. All else is discarded and as for objectivity - hah!

Justice4Ol 11/25/2008 8:51:59 AM
I couldn't agree more with your article it is spot on. I think the people who are opposed to AA & BBEE policies should do their research properly and re-read with the purpose of understanding what these policies entails. It is still too early to call for an end to these policies, but what needs to be done is to fine tune them and accelerate their implementation as most companies have not adopted them...

unsure 11/25/2008 8:52:38 AM
I find it quite amusing that you talk about the lack of facts in previous articles but fail to provide any facts to back any of your own arguments. I recently finished my post grad and I lived in a univ res and one of my hall mates got a job which we both applied for. After 5 years he has not yet obtained his 3 year BCom... The job req was post grad with 2 years exp. So his unfinished degree is equal to my cum laude post grad, is that what u call "both candidates are qualified"? THAT IS AA.

Louis 11/25/2008 8:52:43 AM
The problem is that your points and Werner's have validity. The whole world had an economic upswing and many other contries had similar (even higher) growth than SA. There is no causal link between AA, BEE and growth, or white males and banking collapse. The problem with AA is that it is implimented at the expense of growing the size of the pie and the transfer of skills (Home Affairs, ESKOM, etc), which in turn compromises growth.

Cape Town Kid 11/25/2008 8:52:49 AM
I also wonder if the same complainants make a noise when they come across job reservation. There seems to be impunity on the private sector's part when CEO are reserved for "white' males only.This action by Companies borders on a corruptible,intolerant,unjust and immoral behaviour.Yet it is this same middle-class beneficiaries who remain silent and who collude into tricking society.I believe that this corrupt behaviour is deep-seated and I challenge these "complainants" to expose it.

Linds 11/25/2008 8:52:51 AM
As you have said, statistics show that the biggest beneficiaries of AA are while women. More whites were employed into senior management positions in the last fiscal year than all the other races combined.

The Kaiser 11/25/2008 8:53:17 AM
"If you think about it, no company will let go someone with a skill they need" Sorry Len, have you heard of Eskom, who are critically underskilled because they let all those skilled "white males go". Good article Malema!

Ima 11/25/2008 8:53:18 AM
I couldnt have said it better !

Disappointed 11/25/2008 8:53:26 AM
Hi Len. Not going to argue...but I need you to hear me out Just so that you know. I work in HR. I'm responsible for interviewing and placements for one of the largest corporates in our particular industry. Not all black placements were invalids like some would believe. Some are exceptional. However, I am not allowed to consider any whites. Their cv's are placed in "file 13". There is quite often the case where the best candidate doesn't get the job. it swings both ways. As does ignorance.

Filemon 11/25/2008 8:54:24 AM
It is not AA basically the problem but rather how it is implemented. Eskom is a prime example. White engineers were replaced by black accountants and hence our power problems which have created a negative effect on our economy, lost billions of forex and created more poverty. The implementation has to be adjusted to provide for skills. Agree though that unskilled whites only have themselves to blame for their victim mentality.

CTheB 11/25/2008 8:56:55 AM
Practice what you preach. Your "arguments" aren't logical either. Your oversimplifications dressed up as knowledge are sad. AA and BEE are worthwhile policies, but the implementation has been the problem. Companies have not always been able to find qualified HDSAs to take positions, but the law required quotas by certain times (EE, rather than AA) or face fines. I worked in software and employees were generally white because we just could not find anyone else who was able to do the job. That will change over time, but it doesn't happen overnight. Many companies are stating that there are serious skills shortages. Are they all lying?

Matt 11/25/2008 8:57:55 AM
Your letter is as one sided as the one you are trying to argue against. I happen to be a 27 year old white male with a 2 degrees, but most of the jobs I would like to apply for are only open for BE positions, so if I can't even apply for the job how can you say AA only applies when 2 candidates have the same qualifications? Don't you think it is demeaning for people my age to get a job they know they did not compete for?

Chris G 11/25/2008 8:57:58 AM
This is just more of the same racist drivel against white people from Len Van Heerden. Most white people personally know someone that's been retrenched simply for being white (Eskom being a prime example). We don't suck these facts out our thumb Len, we've seen it happen to the people closest to us. You can try to justify it however you like, but discriminating against someone based on skin colour is racism. Call it "transformation" if you want, but my dictionary defines it as racism.

Kadjuu 11/25/2008 8:58:10 AM
the BEE phenomena is not peculiar to Southern Africa, and governments in South East Asia, and the middle east have implemented schemes that are similar in effect. competency or the lack thereof is universal accross all racial groups and nations!

Matt 11/25/2008 8:59:19 AM
Your letter is as one sided as the one you are trying to argue against. I happen to be a 27 year old white male with a 2 degrees, but most of the jobs I would like to apply for are only open for BE positions, so if I can't even apply for the job how can you say AA only applies when 2 candidates have the same qualifications? Don't you think it is demeaning for people my age to get a job they know they did not compete for?

Just Me 11/25/2008 8:59:33 AM
AA and BEE is also about statistics having a certain % of specific "race/ethnic" in your company. I have seen companies employ people that are completely incompotent, but helps them meet statistics. Take telkom, that person that handles your query doesnt have a clue what they doing, thats why you wait 2hrs. Home affairs? another example. Your comment "but no company gets rid of the A, B or even C employees".... yes companies do it, as they look for a cheaper person to do the work,but they fail.

KAC 11/25/2008 9:00:10 AM
I do not comment much anymore as the same opinions are given, but to use your platform to promote stupidity I need to comment. The problem comes in that you are not qualified in this topic as your logic is skewed. If only you were objective and are able to see the whole picture. This piece of junk from you today just shows your incompetence with politics. Join the ANCYL it is more in your league and you will feel right at home.

Houston 11/25/2008 9:01:15 AM
AA and BEE leads to what we see happening in home affairs, more than 70% of management not qualified. It also plays a major role in the skills shortage. Taxi drivers and packers with degrees, I doubt it, or perhaps the degree is not worth the paper it's written on due to our substandard tertiary education now. No matter how you look at it, AA and BEE are not bettering this country.

Ray 11/25/2008 9:03:16 AM
Good article Len, Shane clearly you have no understanding of how currencies are valued, yet you are willing to use it in your argument. That is the exact ignorance that Len was referring to.

Jason 11/25/2008 9:03:35 AM
Sure I benefited. Just that all the things I got I would get in any white eurocentric country. Me i am tired of the guilt, lets have PDIs say thank you for the best country in Africa.

jannie 11/25/2008 9:04:05 AM
"Affirmative Action applies only in cases where both candidates are qualified and have the minimum qualifying criteria for the job." That is how it SHOULD work, but not as it is applied in practice...you know that!!!

Blinkers 11/25/2008 9:04:13 AM
Loved the article - agreed with most. Seems to be well researched. Think white women are concidered AA - check again....final observation - you would have been crucified if you wrote this under a black persons name....

Just Me 11/25/2008 9:05:56 AM
AA and BEE is also about statistics having a certain % of specific "race/ethnic" in your company. I have seen companies employ people that are completely incompotent, but helps them meet statistics. Take telkom, that person that handles your query doesnt have a clue what they doing, thats why you wait 2hrs. Home affairs? another example. Your comment "but no company gets rid of the A, B or even C employees".... yes companies do it, as they look for a cheaper person to do the work,but they fail.

Tienie.b 11/25/2008 9:08:04 AM
I agree to a certain extent to what you say. I think people overlook the opportunities created for all ethnicities due to AA BEE. Two points i would like to stress though,1,In a country growing at a pace that we are, all vacancy applications should be equally considered, regardless of ethnicity or gender.2,It all comes down to education and the fact that everyone kept quiet when Trevor Manual allocated 4 times more funds to Pensions for uneducated MP's than he did for Education is worrying?

Wikus 11/25/2008 9:08:11 AM
Answer me this: How can AA really be implemented when there is a shortage in education amongst the black population? Our government isn't putting any effort in reducing the education gap left by Apartheid, yet they push their racial quotas. This leads to the hiring of under skilled employees. Your article shows the same ignorance and bias you preach against. And it reeks of racism. I do concede that there are alot of white males that don't deserve their posts, and that there are competent blacks.

old bat 11/25/2008 9:09:22 AM
All I know is this: my two pale male sons would LOVE to be working and living in SA. But over in the UK they have a fair chance for jobs and promotions based solely on their own merit and hard work. (Not to mention their degrees which they earned and which their Dad and I went without to fund.) It's one of the cruel facts of life our family has to live with.

ShRoOm 11/25/2008 9:10:42 AM
No doubt you have proof of this? If the white male is qualified do you still have a problem with it? I've read a lot of your posts and you seem to have issues with white, middle-class men. Perhaps you can explain why this is?

ALL MAN 11/25/2008 9:10:46 AM
.....the obvious lowering of standards in Universities and High Schools, as well as having different criteria when it comes to qualifying to even get into Universities. The fact is instead of bringing the knowledge levels of the previously disadvantaged up, we are bringing everything else down to accomodate them. Has anyone seen the movie "Idiocracy", well here we come.

Citizen 11/25/2008 9:12:31 AM
Len, you say: "Affirmative Action applies only in cases where both candidates are qualified and have the minimum qualifying criteria for the job."I saw several adverts where it states only AA candidates may apply. If your skin color isn't dark enough, they don't even look at your CV. Maybe on paper AA works but not in practice. Maybe you should do more practical research yourselve...

Juan 11/25/2008 9:12:43 AM
Dear Len,obviously self interest played a part when you wrote your piece. No one is as blind as he who does not what to see. Fact1-AA & BEE is a racist policy enforced by the government to unfairly advance people of a certain pigmentation.Fact2-At the height of Apartheid in 1960's we had a growth rate of nearly 7% & inflasion on nearly 3%,ANC cannot achieve it even with the whole world helping them.Fact3-In 1984 we had more jobs in the market place with 24mil people in RSA,ANC does not come clos.

Henny 11/25/2008 9:13:04 AM
Everything you say are true but you fail to mention that government forced 'numbers' onto industry which resulted in people being appointed in positions for which they are not qualified because it would fix their 'numbers'. just look at home affairs that went public the other day stating that up to 75% of employees from director level upwards are not qualified to do the job. I do not have any problem with AA and BEE if it is applied as stated in the law.

Sarky 11/25/2008 9:13:40 AM
AA and BBBEE was dopted from Malaysia where the blue print was written.It was found after a number a years that the native Malaysian people were not really better off but instead that the gap between rich and poor Malaysians only increased.The other effect was that Chinese and Indian ?settlers? targeted by the AA and EE was better off after these policies were introduced.The conclusion was that the Malaysian Gov scrapped these policies sometime ago.Why will these policies work in SA if failed els

Nick 11/25/2008 9:13:47 AM
Come on Len, look at local Goverment/Municipals they are a joke. Look at most major retail outlets, Staff look at you as if you are alien. Where are the service levels in these industries - down the tube. WHY(LvH has the answers). How sure are we some ANC bigwig did not write this crap. Take your story to the Daily Sun, probably get paid for this junk.

Glock 22c 11/25/2008 9:13:48 AM
But that is not the process followed in 99% of the cases , I have seen many jobs where white CV's go directly to the bin and it doesnt work like you say "Affirmative Action applies only in cases where both candidates are qualified and have the minimum qualifying criteria for the job." So ones again what the ANC says and what they do does not add up , Thats my problem with AA

Mark N 11/25/2008 9:13:57 AM
You are wrong. Eskom is a prime example. I have worked with a number of AA/BEE forced placements working in a technical position and it does not work, period! Is it not true that companies will be fined in the future if their BEE status is not correct.

The Truth 11/25/2008 9:15:50 AM
And you find nothing unfair or discriminatory about this? Try explaining AA policies to the few hundred thousand white,coloured and Asian (because they are now not black enough) matriculants entering the job market next year or in a few years time after completing their tertiary education.Best of luck to you convincing those poor kids who had stuff-all to do with our previous distorted racial policies that it's all for the best.

CHARLIE 11/25/2008 9:16:37 AM
A good article and certainly has merit. However, like so many South Africans, we take things out of context and are able to piant any picture we like. It is important to look at the whole picture before making sweeping statements. The fact remains, as long as ther are policies and practises in place that distinquish race, we will continue to see colour and racism in its many forms will continue. Prehaps we need to look beyond colour and start looking at a persons morals and values instead.

Fran 11/25/2008 9:17:02 AM
Sorry Len, government and private companies are reserving jobs for "AA CANDIDATES ONLY". You are trying to make AA look like a juicy fig whereas it is in fact horse sh!t. AA is discrimination based on race and sex, period. Even though the motivation behind AA was to correct past imbalances, it has now served its purpose. Kids who started school after '94 should all have had the same opportunities, and any promising previously disadvantaged person could get a bursary. Time's up for AA!

hjs 11/25/2008 9:17:34 AM
the fact that the applicant's skin pigmentation is more important than his skills, means that AA legislation is based on RACIST criteria. Am I wrong?

Lucky Ralawe 11/25/2008 9:18:06 AM
Shane, the infrastructure 2 was 4 whites only, now more than 49 million people r using it. What do u xpect? There is planning that goes alongside it, & we'll get things rite in time. Ian, get your facts right. There was a sunset clause in the interim Constitution, which Joe Slovo fought 4 2 ensure that skilled whites remained in their positions after 1994. They left of own accord. Stryder, the Skills Dev Act says put a development progr 2 cultivate yr own timber, not hire incompetent candidates.

GW 11/25/2008 9:19:14 AM
For a Van Heerden you certainly have an unusual outlook! Besides your logic is flawed, and your argument based on emotion and false assumptions. And assumption is the mother of all f.....ups

proud to be white 11/25/2008 9:19:38 AM
Are racist no matter what way you look at it,because AA is based on the colour of your skin,the people saying it's fair are people who are benifiting from it,the ANC prides itself on bot being racist,but they are doing exactly what the old goverment did and that is giving people jobs on the basis of their skin colour,the ANC is just like the nats were the only difference is the skin colour has changed.

Just Me 11/25/2008 9:19:59 AM
AA and BEE is also about statistics having a certain % of specific "race/ethnic" in your company. I have seen companies employ people that are completely incompotent, but helps them meet statistics. Take telkom, that person that handles your query doesnt have a clue what they doing, thats why you wait 2hrs. Home affairs? another example. Your comment "but no company gets rid of the A, B or even C employees".... yes companies do it, as they look for a cheaper person to do the work,but they fail.

MasterMind 11/25/2008 9:21:19 AM
I am currently interviewing to fill a position at my company. 3 of the candidates are ex-employees from various HR fields. They were all from a very competitive environment, but all three were laid off from various positions due to refunds and penalties incurred due to AA applicants either lie-ing on their CV's or being unable to fulfil the role given them at their new employers thus the employment agency has to foot the bill. Now go figure as I employ HR skills in a sales environment...

Colin 11/25/2008 9:21:50 AM
No-one can fault the Sullivan Code idea of giving deserving candidates extra training, mentoring & finance to redress past wrongs. The ANC & its ja-sayers have corrupted [!] the term to mean Apartheid Again. If van Heerden challenges that candidates got fast-tracked, no matter how much book-learning and potential, way beyond their abilities, in the week that Home Affairs *admitted* most of its managers are incompetent, one wonders at his grasp of news and the concept.

Love africa 11/25/2008 9:23:43 AM
Contractors are making good money because of government departments employing staff without the correct skills and have to bring in contractors to do the actual work. I'm a contractor and am benefiting from the system. If the staff been hired actually developed skills from the contractors then I would say fine but they don't want to do anything 90%(all colours). And its near impossible to fire these staff who are adding no value. It?s very sad.

Ands 11/25/2008 9:25:25 AM
But here it is misunderstood,mismanaged and manipulated to favour black people. Are the governments and municipalities applying these AA principles ...I think not.SAA and Eskom are two examples of the damage AA causes. Private companies can and do use AA effectively and here it works for the most part.There are though far too many stories of young white matriculants with outstanding results being overlooked to accomodate black matriculants with average results.SCRAP AA.

TB 11/25/2008 9:26:00 AM
I totally agree with you on that one. When I see ads like "EE Applicants only" or "AA Position" in the wording, does that constitute correct implementation of the law? I don't think so. We should name & shame these employers. On the other hand, we also know the penalty threats made by govt should employers not comply to the qoata at a certain point in time. Catch 22 situation not so?!

Oom_Kosie 11/25/2008 9:26:27 AM
According to StatsSA there are about 300 000 adult whites who do not have matric. This is an insignificant number. Companies let skilled people go in favour of idiots because the government in effect "pays" them (using our money) to do so. AA "should" only apply where candidates meet criteria for posts, but in reality it doesn't (ask any lawyer or HR person). You assume that all laws are always morally right as well, which is naive.

Spacle 11/25/2008 9:26:31 AM
Please speak to the numerous employment and placement agencies out there and they will tell you that they are not even bothering with sending white cv's to most companies as they need to fill their AA quotas as set out by LAW!You can brainwash some of the people some of the time, but......

Gavin 11/25/2008 9:26:35 AM
Len, you seriously spend too much time on these websites, i really hope you are retired and have nothing else to do...

mallencolly 11/25/2008 9:26:58 AM
If I understand you correctly, if people dont agree with your OPINION regarding a very complex issue, they are ignorant? Cute. I think if you put a little thought into it you would see that BOTH sides of this argument happen. Personally I think that AA/BEE cannot happen at employment level unless there is equality in education. Now how many township schools can match the likes of KES, Pretoria Boys, Affies, Jeppe? Good education must always come first....

Z 11/25/2008 9:28:13 AM
After going through comments made by "STRYDER", I doubt if he has a degree as he claims, unless got it when Verwoed was distributing them. Get to work and realise that this country is successful because of it's black middle class (u even named them black diamonds, because it suits you). Get real. My 3 degrees and overseas experience and being BLACK (what a combination), have worked for me.

Oom_Kosie 11/25/2008 9:28:45 AM
Once again - do not believe what you read in Jimmy Manyi's EEC reports. They are VERY flawed, as has been proven by Solidarity, Markinor, Markdata and Wits University. He just wants to further his own agenda as leader of the BMF. The whole "white women benefit most from AA" is simply not true.

Point Blank 11/25/2008 9:29:17 AM
I find your opening paragraph a dissappointing generalization. Where I work we have mainly black senior managers and more then half our directors are black, those white people who are in positions of management all have degrees, none of them are unqualified including our black staff. I think you need to catch up a bit you still in 1994 bud.

IceCreamMan 11/25/2008 9:30:03 AM
"The Affirmative Action Hoax" by professor Steven Farron to understand the facts of AA policies. They are detrimental to society as a whole.

Patrick Mkhwanazi 11/25/2008 9:31:23 AM
Well stated LvH. I don't understand how else our white compatriots expected that the legacy of apartheid be addressed in terms of deracialising the economy, which still remains skewed in favour of white people. AA has only been in place for less than 10 years, and the gaps still remain huge. Remember for every one professional black person, there is an army of extended family members sitting on such person's budget line items.

Adriaan 11/25/2008 9:33:45 AM
Len, the second half of your article is a strawman argument.. You seem to be trying to coonnect the fact that companies are failing to the fact that they are run by white males. I am one of the uncles - 46 years old, 3 degrees, ex GM. I have been temping for 10 years. Senior management positions are out of bounds (been told that by 50+ agencies and employers)but I survive on a temp/contract basis for these positions assisting the AA appointee.

The scribe 11/25/2008 9:33:52 AM
Sorry Len, I sugest you do some research into this before you make the statments that you have. AA does hurt the economy, companies do let good people go and replace them with less experienced people to get thier AA numbers up It happens

JC 11/25/2008 9:35:19 AM
Len, you hit the nail on the head. I'm white, have a degree (not one that's in demand) and have a great job, and i even get the promotions and the raises that i work for! I don't know of even ONE qualified white person that does not have a job. I think that AA and EE may even have helped me work even harder and become more qualified!

blah 11/25/2008 9:35:41 AM
I started working shortly before 1994 and was amazed at the incompetance and arrogance of some of the white managers at my place of employment. These days, as as contractor, I am annoyed at the incompetance and arrogance of some of the AA employees. Making any race a protected species in terms of employment is looking for trouble. If everyone had to compete for jobs on the basis of merit I'm convinced many businesses would run better.

Stryder 11/25/2008 9:35:59 AM
Are you saying the likes of Unilever, Hewlett Packard etc are breaking the law by maintaining the quoatas that are forced on them by the law? And please address the issue of the entire Policy being racist.

Lucky Ralawe 11/25/2008 9:38:13 AM
4 some1 in HR u r truly disappointing. Pls read the Employment Equity Act & understand it. Whites' cvs r put aside if the company already has enough white people. Perhaps after understanding the Act you will then be in a position to understand how the different racial groupings must reflect on your companies' EE Report to the Dep of Labour. Once the numbers are right, you must also be able to properly advise your company and argue against putting aside whites' cv's.

nthatuwa 11/25/2008 9:39:38 AM
well written and how true.There is absolutely nothing wrong with AA and BEE.The problem is Companies who fail to implement it correct.There are whites who benefit thru BEE,they approach blacks and promise to get them started with capital and they can have such & such % in the business just as long as the name will be African.Wh do people pretend to be better?Let's be honest and don't omit the true to push misplaced agendas!I have nothin againgst AA just the its incorrect implemetation.Blame Co's.

ABSurd 11/25/2008 9:42:14 AM
Come play in the trenches - it is much more realistic down here.

yanowellfine 11/25/2008 9:42:40 AM
Redress is necessary but needs to be correctly implemented, this is what most people are saying. So you haven't noticed the lack of competence in the gov controlled enterprises I take it Len? Team SA is in the relegation zone when deserving students are not accepted by tertiary institutions, even if they are white. Corporates will end up there too if better candidates are rejected just because they are white, besides this practice is obviously racist. It's a lose-lose scenario.

Posley 11/25/2008 9:42:48 AM
It's funny you should say that " They rarely are the best person for the job" I am a black female in a white dominated IT industry and I feel the same way about, most white guys I have come across in this industry. most of the guys I have worked with, are lazy to apply simple logical solutions to problems ( by the way qualifications do not compesate for intelligence)and guess what? most of them do not even have proper qualifications.

Patriot 11/25/2008 9:43:18 AM
I understand the Need, for Disadvantaged people to be fast tracked, into a better life, But when will it end, Make a End point so those of us with young kids can plan for the future, is it 10 years after 1994, or 20 0r thirty, Why not say any Kid who matriculates after eg 2020 will not be subject to BEE any longer, then we know, and can plan our Futures in SA accordingly

Godfrey 11/25/2008 9:45:59 AM
I work in finance in a govt department.There are many white people who don't have tertiary qualifications and they don't even try to improve their qualifications despite the fact that every year we're given busaries to further our studies.On the other hand almost all of my black colleaques in this unit who joined this dept have finance qualifications.They struggled to get these qualifications,having to walk at night from classes,while some spoiled people do nothing but complain.

nthatuwa 11/25/2008 9:48:01 AM
LOL,serious though.Len,if you're white,I respect you for being able to see beyond colour.This has allowed you to se things as they erally are.Your article not only rebukes whites,but any individual of colour who thinks otherwise about another.It teaches me to look at things objectively ans not subjectively.People must stop acting like victims and start being in control of their lives.They said," 'n boer maak a plaan",i bliv we're all capable of that.Let's stop moaning just for the sake of moanin.

Juan 11/25/2008 9:48:38 AM
I would be totally ashamed if i got a job because of my skin colour and not my intellect. I would not be able to look my collegues in the eye! Fortunately I'm white and I can hold my head up high and be proud as I got a decent job DESPITE all those racist aa policies!

Transformer 11/25/2008 9:48:44 AM
I just want to say thank you for AA & BEE. It forced me as a white male to work as a contractor. I have also started working on my kids to make a mind change not to work for a BOSS. For those who do not know the definition of RACISM: to discriminate against a person based on skin color. (and even the meaning seems to be different for a BLACK person & a WHITE person). If you are WHITE think 3/4/5 times before commenting on anything based on skin color else...

ElectroMan 11/25/2008 9:50:40 AM
A: For 1 generation AA stays in place (Allows some citizens growth, proven unsustainable often, Thus government spends millions on sustainability promotions); On the flip side those affected by it will develop grudges, hate, revengeful attitudes, social & cultural division, selective or preferential treatment towards those who are innocent but enjoyed the advantage.

rick 11/25/2008 9:53:09 AM
Len, explain the fact that UCT will allow blacks with inferior marks into the medical faculty as opposed to whites who have superior marks. the facts are jobs and university seats are allocated on a racial basis. Any white that does not see that is either more stupid than the blacks or a ceo busy feathering his back pocket. Apartheid existed to keep the sh&*t at bay. When it is let loose Africa happens - and it has now happened in SA which WAS a thriving country

hc 11/25/2008 9:54:58 AM
It is all about morals and work ethics. Ask me I have spent 3 years in management in one of the better government departments. If you open your eyes you will see who carries the majority with all their qualifications, very little morals, work ethics and lots of "sick leave". What about productivity stats instead of blaming a few "white" corporate individuals creating millions of jobs!!!

scrawl 11/25/2008 9:55:22 AM
I recently did an extensive job hunt going for several interviews at IT companies. I always looked around and the majority of employees were white males. I found that interesting. And no, despite being the "right" colour, I didn't get the job (fair enough).

Jus me 11/25/2008 9:56:35 AM
Equality, yeah right. Its been long enough now and it hasn't worked. What next? Mass retrenchments?

Purviss 11/25/2008 10:02:37 AM
You did not research your facts. Many of the large corporations have put a moratorium on employing whites. This means all whites!! But this is not the real problem. Example, we have a shortage of 22000 accountants in this country. Yet a white graduate cannot find a job. They are forced to immigrate because it?s impossible for them to start a practice due to banks that won't finance whites, so what's left? Non-racist and non-sexist country? I don't think so.

Arrow 11/25/2008 10:03:18 AM
Any legislation that discriminates based on sex or ethnic background is racism. Shouldn't the best candidate simply get the position?

MysticBoer 11/25/2008 10:03:25 AM
"You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: 'now, you are free to go where you want, do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.' You do not take a man who for years has been hobbled by chains, liberate him, bring him to the starting line of a race, saying, 'you are free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe you have been completely fair . . . This is the next and more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity?not just legal equity but human ability?not just equality as a right and a theory, but equality as a fact and as a result."

Billy 11/25/2008 10:04:17 AM
Dude. If you only knew what was going on in the real world. Steop outside your office and do some real research. I only wish you could see what's going on where I work.

Purviss 11/25/2008 10:05:36 AM
You did not research your facts. Many of the large corporations have put a moratorium on employing whites. This means all whites!! But this is not the real problem. Example, we have a shortage of 22000 accountants in this country. Yet a white graduate cannot find a job. They are forced to immigrate because it?s impossible for them to start a practice due to banks that won't finance whites, so what's left? Non-racist and non-sexist country? I don't think so.

Stryder 11/25/2008 10:07:55 AM
Whatever man. When did I mention "black diamonds" What the hell are you smoking. Are you even able to read or are your AA degrees bought and paid for? My degree gets me work. I am not even affected by AA directly. Z please deny that AA is racism in a logical thought out way. If your two braincells are able to function at that level.

martin albert 11/25/2008 10:07:57 AM
The reality of AA is that it is not working for the majority of appointments especially in government - Land Bank, Home Affairs, ESKOM and the best example of all Parliment. BEE is just about enriching a few at the expense of the rest. Time and time again the same rich previously disadvantaged individuals pop-up in deal after deal - Tokyo, Saki, Smuts, Cyril, et al. Both policies do not work because they are not applied correctly and nothing is going to change in the future.

Cynical 11/25/2008 10:08:58 AM
Thanks Len I needed a laugh on this frosty morning somewhere outside of SA and you've provided one. You should hang a white flag outside your house because you've obviously surrendered your mind and soul to the ANC. You poor brainwashed thing you. Your article deserves to be put in that well known place where the sun doesn?t shine ? in your case the same cavity where your brain is situated.

bj 11/25/2008 10:09:15 AM
Over all your posts and underneath all your talk trying to sound intellectual, I see a scared and angry young woman. What are you scared of and angry about? Maybe you can enlighten the forum and we may be able to help?

Badger 11/25/2008 10:11:43 AM
However, it's not all cut and dry as you make it seem. There is always a story about someone who got the job cause thier uncle/dad/brother knows someone. Look at SAA. That Tossa on top is raking in R5mil PLUS a year and the airline just keeps falling into SH!T, asking Gov to bale them out, in turn the tax payer pays. There are a number of black people who hold jobs that pay VERY well and they are clueless. Look there are a number of whites too, don't get me wrong !!!

BOSS 11/25/2008 10:12:28 AM
I want the best... if you care for skin you don't work for me. If you care for politics you don't work for me. If you do antyhing other than have a passion for my industry you don't work for me. Service excellence is what this corporate environments should strive for and wellness of staff is most important as they bring the business into manifestation... AA & BEE has no place in business!!! currency sees no color why should job positions aiming at gaining currency?

barry 11/25/2008 10:13:19 AM
Johannesburg - The Department of Home Affairs is sitting with hundreds of incompetent senior managers whom it cannot fire because of stringent employment laws. As a result, the department has been forced to find alternative responsibilities for many managers who are unable to perform their duties and whose skills do not match their job descriptions. This was revealed by Home Affairs Director-General Mavuso Msimang in parliament on Friday, when he told parliament's standing committee on public accounts (Scopa) that a staggering 70% of the senior managers in the department had failed an internal competency test conducted last year. Msimang said many senior managers - from director level upwards - who had failed the test dismally had been told to re-apply for their positions. Msimang, who took over the department last year, said the tests were conducted after they invited the public service and administration (DPSA) department, the National Treasury and the Public Service Commission to help them analyse what was wrong with the department. He said one of the major problems identified by this multi-pronged task team was the serious lack of capacity among senior managers in the department. This resulted in a process where senior managers were requested to undertake a competence test, and the results confirmed the shocking truth. "There was a serious lack of management capacity and issues with management competence," he said. Msimang said while the tests had proved conclusively that a majority of senior managers were struggling to perform their duties, remedying the problem was proving even trickier. Home Affairs asked many of the struggling senior managers to re-apply for their positions, as part of a realignment of the department following recommendations for consultants to be engaged in an intensive three year, R900m turnaround plan. He said a number of the managers identified as having weak management skills had been placed in the department in a "holding capacity" while new areas of responsibility were being worked out for them. Asked if any managers had been dismissed for failing the test, Msimang said the senior management handbook of the DPSA and general labour laws did not allow for employees who had failed competency tests to be dismissed. "You are not allowed to dismiss a person as a result of their failure in a competency test. You give them an opportunity for training ... so no one's dismissed as a result," he said. Msimang told parliament they were tightening up controls after the auditor-general gave them a disclaimer in their audit report. The auditor-general found the department was unable to provide supporting documents for transactions worth millions of rands. Msimang said the department had identified structural flaws in their revenue management, as well as problems with processes to verify departmental assets and collect cash and wasteful expenditure. Cash collection offices at Home Affairs are not linked to the government's Basic Accounting System. Msimang said a new invoicing system would be rolled out to 60 Home Affairs offices by March 31 next year. The offices collect about 80% of all revenue derived from the various Home Affairs centres. The department also told parliament that it had renegotiated its contract with Bosasa, the company that runs the Lindela repatriation centre in Krugersdorp, resulting in a R7m a year annual saving for the department. Acting chief financial officer Segaran Naidoo said in terms of the new agreement, the department would be charged at a rate of R95/day per detainee, limited to 2 500 detainees a day. - City Press

pieter 11/25/2008 10:13:19 AM
Just finished reading the report on clean water by gagged scientist Anthony Turton. You can spin AA and BEEE any way you want to, but people wil start dying in greater numbers pretty soon because of negligance and forced AA....what will politicaly correct writers like yourselve say then ?

Shipo 11/25/2008 10:15:24 AM
Len , get a life , make time to see the bigger pis instead of thinking out propaganda, Very bad written article.. I mean talking about education and scoring over 13 on FOG indicator , maybe U should work on your writing skills.

Sinudeity@Gmail.com 11/25/2008 10:17:16 AM
The black middle class is now bigger than the white population. As well, "Many companies", that is just such a broad, and unfounded statement. Of course, statistics in South Africa, cannot be trusted. Unfortunately, racism reigns in South Africa. The problem with "BEE/AA" is the level of corruption in South Africa, which gets confused with nepotism. But, in reality, this article, misses reality, and ALL the issues that face South Africa.

Craig 11/25/2008 10:19:02 AM
I have never read so much rubbish in all my life. Are you denying the fact that Black people are promoted or highered over whites irrespective of whether they are the right person for the job or not. I work for a one of the largest companies in this country with in excess of 20 000 employees and I dare you to find 1 white male under 30 years old. It?s a simple fact, White males are being slowly forced out of the corporate world. I am always surprised by my black colleagues 'blindness' as to what is going on. I am well respected by my colleagues (black and white) for my knowledge and skills and am constantly asked by them why I am still so low in the ranks of the company or why I haven't moved on too other companies. Its called Affirmative action people. Nobody hires white males! Young white males have no future in this country unless they take up a professional career like lawyer, doctor etc. My children will not work in this country, they are being educated and 'prepared' to leave this country when they are older Wake up and take your head out of the sand!

Paul 11/25/2008 10:20:07 AM
This article could have been written about Apartheid law rather than AA and BEE. Just replace all occurrences of "BEE" or "AA" with the word "Apartheid" and all instances of "Black" with "White" and vica versa, and you will quickly see what I mean. Scary. Looks like the new government liked the idea of Apartheid so much they decided to keep it.

Kal-El 11/25/2008 10:20:37 AM
Your argument (like that of Werner) is full of assumptions. The fact is, the real implementation of AA remains racist and discriminatory. Many departments, specifically in government are crippled by this. And if you listen to the news you would know that THAT is a fact. Irrespective of your ideology, you cannot ignore that there are countless situations in our country where incompetent blacks are appointed. This is because of the AA pressures on companies and shortage of skills.

MJ 11/25/2008 10:21:24 AM
This is the problem dude. Are you suggesting that you didn't get the job because of your colour? Maybe you were too expensive for what they wanted, or too unskilled. The problem is sometimes there are many other genuine reasons for not being hired, and both sides sometimes fall back on their ace as being the reason for not getting the post.

TheMan 11/25/2008 10:21:55 AM
I find it hard to grapple the fact that white males like myself(with 2 degrees) are discriminated, but white women aren?t. The majority of these s.african white women(in senior positions) are so out of their depth its embarrassing, especially in marketing, PR, HR etc where they dominate. I once had a meeting with a ?senior brand manager? and she never knew what LSM?s were!! What goes around comes around like they say

The Dude 11/25/2008 10:21:55 AM
AA and BBBEE is not an issue if you simply start your own business like I did. I don't need the government to make a living. Later ;)

Lucky Ralawe 11/25/2008 10:23:43 AM
I don't work for the companies you mentioned. I am merely stating what the law says. Therefore, if the law is flouted, it is your duty to challenge the violater, not just moan here out of ignorance. BTW, if AA is racist as you claim, how come no one has challenged it successfully at the Constitutional Court? And they say "white christian national education" was the best, **sigh**

ElectroMan 11/25/2008 10:24:19 AM
Speak to any recruiter in public sectors. I have been through a specific process myself quite recently. (like Disappointed also mentions) Whites are not given the opportunity to compete in most case. This pathetic argument that the law is being wrongfully attacked and Len's words stink of politician bullsh!t. As mentioned before; We were 250 people (2 white men, 3 woman) = 2%; Only I made it through. Where is the white woman pulling the advantage and where are the justifiable demographics?

The Dude 11/25/2008 10:24:56 AM
AA and BBBEE is not an issue if you simply start your own business like I did. I don't need the government to make a living. Later ;)

Sven Gohre 11/25/2008 10:29:27 AM
I find it highly amusing that people are finding the practice of representation such a problem. According to the government of the day, the demographic make up of all companies and teams must reflect the racial percentages of the country. eg 80% of all senior managment must be black. What is overlooked, is that the vast majority of viable companies are started and run by whites. Where are the 80% of all companies started by blacks?

Bridget 11/25/2008 10:29:33 AM
There were no big engineering companies, banks, mines or anything of that nature in SA before it was colonised.These businesses were created by a certain group of people, who may expect their heirs to benefit from it. If other groups are now able to compete, they should do so on an equal footing - no preferential treatment! This is because our constitution is against discrimination - AA is discrimination. And lastly AA is nowhere else employed by a majority against a minority.

LVN 11/25/2008 10:29:51 AM
As a white male exec, in principle I do not have a problem with AA or BEE. Those who rage against it might have justified arguments. But lets look at the reason why potentially awesome policies cite negative reactions. Most big companies are under white male management. These are the people who fail to understand what the policies are and subsequently missapply them by appointing a lesser skilled person of colour. go back to school executives and learn what these policies ask from your company.

AMB 11/25/2008 10:30:27 AM
I don't think AA/BEE is a bad thing. It's forced me out of the country and I've found a lovely new home. My two pale-faced boys now also have a future! Since I've arrived, 7 other skilled fellow-Saffas have arrived here - that I personally know. All left for the same reasons - crime and the new SA mentality. Yes, I am a deserter, but, guess what? I'm happy and don't have to deal with all this crap!

BD 11/25/2008 10:31:28 AM
As if SA was in a finacial crises before BEE. In fact there was a time when the ZAR was stronger than the dollar. Don't play that crap out like JZ that the black man was the saviour. It was a collective act between different people who believed in one thing, including whites. Today only the blacks (not even coloureds) Steals the credit. BEE should have a time limit. Companies are penalised even if there is no BEE candidate available. Len, you racist idiot, get a life, your Gravy train will dry.

Leaving 11/25/2008 10:31:31 AM
Bottom line is that AA and EE are costing SA skills. People who are the most skilled are leaving SA because they see no future here for themselves or their kids thanks to these racist laws and their application. Less skills means less growth and less jobs. UK, Australia, US, NZ are the richer for SA's loss and will outcompete SA in every sphere thanks to there highly skilled workforce - no matter what colour they are.

Benzo 11/25/2008 10:31:42 AM
Having been around a little, I can safely state that the issue is a lot more complicated than Len's take on it. To state that 3 major car companies in the US need a hand out, followed by the statement that they have white directors is at least suggestive. Would this not have happened if they had applied AA or BEE principles? Qualifications? They are generally just "papers" and nothing more. Proving what? One can even buy the stuff. US 160 for a doctorate!!

LG 11/25/2008 10:32:56 AM
We can all complain as much as we want, who cares. As a white male, I thank BBBEE and AA, thank you for forcing me to work harder and become more knowledgeable to perform my work and other duties. The thing is, even if you are not selected for a specific job, look to see how you can improve yourself to get admitted for the next, yes some jobs do tell you, you are to white, but hey, improve yourself and get the better job, or even move yourself into a different area of expertise. Somewhere along the line you will be the best, and then no one will be able to deny you, cause overseas companies will pick you just cause they can. Be optimistic, no amount of complaining will change the matter of the fact.

@dissapointed 11/25/2008 10:33:38 AM
Its not the policy that's the problem. Its your management and more specifically your superior that should be familiar that AA does not mean the outright appointment of a black candidate and refusal of any white applications.. Ask your superior to do his job and stay current with labour related legislation..Come one!

Azania 11/25/2008 10:35:02 AM
I have also noted that the people who are negative negative about AA and BBBEE in this article still have a poor understanding of what the former and the latter is. This is created by resentment for blacks in most cases. Whites who understand AA and BBBEE are making it big in South Africa as they understand how the system work but if you are white, racist and full of hatred you will probably become a moaner for the rest of your life.

LVN 11/25/2008 10:35:11 AM
Its not the policy that's the problem. Its your management and more specifically your superior that should be familiar that AA does not mean the outright appointment of a black candidate and refusal of any white applications.. Ask your superior to do his job and stay current with labour related legislation..Come on, do your freakin job!

HAHA 11/25/2008 10:36:09 AM
I studied to be an engineer and after graduating I could not get a job because I'm white and now we have an engineering crisis in SA. This is what AA has done to the country.

AJ 11/25/2008 10:38:10 AM
If you are not talking about this fromthe youth's perspective, who have no experience etc, then you are missing the point, or choosig to avoid it beacuse it does not sit well. AA policies with the youth are a disaster. Stop talking about middle aged white guys - that is too easy!

Mike F 11/25/2008 10:38:31 AM
The government is always being blamed for AA and BEE when it is the companies & business who r mostly implementing the laws in a manner that makes the laws look bad. It is business who empower the same BEE suspects all the time instead of practicing broad based empowerment. We hear of shortage of skills and the government is blamed. Y won't the Accounting companies take responsibilty and train Accountants, instead of moaning about 20 000 shortage of trained accountants, etc for Engineering, etc

kgomotso 11/25/2008 10:39:52 AM
its pure arrogancy and stupidity to assume and insinuate a white man is a solution to problem. where i work 95% of whites do not even have a diploma they are occupying managerial position and under them are black people with honours and masters degree.

Karen 11/25/2008 10:39:56 AM
What you have gone to great lengths to articulate is all theory. Which world do live in? Look at all these accelerated learning programs, job advertisement etc and note the part where is says only AA candidates need apply. How is that looking at 2 equally qualified people? They don't even want to look at people of the "wrong" race. Black people are very happy with the action because it favours them and hated it when it favoured white people. I would like to ask, how is it different?

VG 11/25/2008 10:40:42 AM
If you can't make your point in 500 characters or less, it probably isn't worth reading. and in this case you've simply cut and pasted an article from City Press (of all places!)and did not even bother to edit it so that it's relevant to the topic at hand. sies

tiekies 11/25/2008 10:40:50 AM
Of SA being over populated and that meaybe why that are so many people out of jobs , I mean think realisticly are there realy a job for every person in this country ? So why does people without a job already still have 6 kids ? Do you not have common sence ? Or is that aprarheids and the white mans fault aswell ?

Lucky Ralawe 11/25/2008 10:43:06 AM
No matter how many times the facts are pointed out to them. Most you happily voted for apartheid all these years but are now ashamed to even admit it. Guess what, believe whatever you want. Moaning and lying to yourselves around braai's is not going to get rid of apartheid injustices, AA and BBBEE will. Viva AA and BBBEE!!

colin 11/25/2008 10:43:50 AM
Len this is the best article I have read since I started using this forum 3 years ago ? it is factual and not just based on a bias opinion ? there is nothing wrong with AA but there is a problem with the way companies implement the policy.

Tsotsi 11/25/2008 10:44:12 AM
I'm bothered about the news the other night that 70% managers in the government service were found to be incompetent and they may stay on. Now national news is a far cry away from "skinner" out of the HR office! I dare you to comment to this as misplaced propaganda. Funny is it is the Government (I suppose the other 30%) who has done the survey!! I rest my case...

Hen 11/25/2008 10:45:52 AM
Len,you obviuosly don't have all your facts correct"Affirmative Action applies only in cases where both candidates are qualified and have the minimum qualifying criteria for the job". In theory, or in your world you living you might believe this, but in practise, this does not happen.I work in a BIG SA Company, and believe me,BLACKS that do not meet the minumum requirements of the job do get placed on the shortlist and are appointed,and WHITES that meet the minumum requirements are not, The truth

Scorp 11/25/2008 10:46:03 AM
HAHA, I am sure the 1000's of people currently in Senior It roles and Gov. positions know exactly what's happening.... That is prob. why My phone rings every night because the BEE, AA standby person is out of reach (yet gets the allowance etc.....) And only appears 2mrw morning whe credit is given...... Len wake up, I am sure you are one of those typical ANC lackies... That hope to keep your position by praising the current system.... I am all for f you can do the job, Hire the GUY

Ananomys 11/25/2008 10:47:19 AM
I work for a company which is recently BEEE'ed and is now systematically purging white males without any questions asked. The company's capacity to do business is being jeapordised. As a WAM myself I feel threatened. The resulting workload is piling onto the non-AAs, as bad as it sounds. it is true ....now tell me it os OK!

Skiballas 11/25/2008 10:47:39 AM
Cos I have one thing to say, Communism in theory is brilliant, in practice it falls to pieces. AA is in theory brilliant, but it is also falling to pieces. I am 29, last year I applied for a mangement position, went through a month and a halfs worth of interviews, including the MD and VP. A week later, I was told that they were instructed to appoint a black manager. I know the part I played in Apartheid as a 13 year old. I guess I deserved not to get appointed.

TC 11/25/2008 10:50:02 AM
I recently consulted to a major company where the Finance departments arr AAed. Can you believe - for nine months the month-end closures were not done! The old non-AAs were systematically forced out and the department became lame! ...is that OK?

TC 11/25/2008 10:51:06 AM
Nobody - Nobody can deny that!

william 11/25/2008 10:51:17 AM
Len,have you seen 50/50 recently and see how our dams gets polluted due to the gross corruption and incompetence of various municipalities. Have you seen our roads Len. Have you seen our hospitals Len. Have you ever tried phoning our Telkom with a problem Len. Were you out of the country with the Eskom crisis. Do you think you will get a car from the ANC Len? To say that we had 10 years of growth is nothing if you look at all the investing after apartheid...that's all....

While Male 11/25/2008 10:52:16 AM
I am a 28 year old white male. I have recently been awarded a top position in one of the largest ICT companies in SA. Why? Because I work harder than any one else, I am better than any of the BEE or AA guys, and that is why I got the job. Not because I'm white. I do know however that BEE and AA exists, that is the reason I work my but off. If you work hard and strive to be the best, no matter what your skin colour, you will be succesful.

M 11/25/2008 10:56:07 AM
I can tell you from experience that this was the case for me a couple of years ago. I got a contract, the black guy got the full bells and whistles (medical aid, pension, leave). He couldn't do the job, I could, yet I left the company (after 3 years when Mr. AA had long gone) because I felt discriminated against (I was still on contract because the company was still looking for an AA candidate). At that time they were pushing AA very hard. In the end they gave up.But no Len, you are wrong

colin 11/25/2008 10:59:09 AM
Withes are still in control of the job market and access to it is much easier for white people. Lets do an exercise whereby we randomly select a list of companies write there names on a piece of paper and randomly draw 10 companies from that list - lets then have a visit at there Head Offices and then make an assessment of how AA excludes whites - I am sure the results of such an exercise will clearly show that whites are still the dominant in numbers across different industries especially with positions were a higher level of education is required. I have been in the job market for the last 9 years and according to me there is no way the AA policy have excluded whites as they have been in majority in most of the companies I have been employed.

Anonymous 11/25/2008 10:59:21 AM
About myself.. My father was a labourer. As a family we never owned a car or a house. There were times that I did not have proper school clothes. I studied and I achieved every bit that I have through damn hard work. I never ever received any whitey-handouts. Now tell me why I should suffer as a result of my white skin. It happens and it remains hard to accept!

Jap Man 11/25/2008 11:01:54 AM
apan not a good example. It is one of the most technological advance country in the world and overtaking america because it is hiring the best people for the job (America implements AA) . The only reason it economy is not growing likes south africa is because its has reached it peak. By the way check out japan economic growth after WW2 to do a proper comparison to south africa does not come close. SA is acutlly becoming worse because our growth is not keeping up with the popultion growth

TK 11/25/2008 11:06:03 AM
Well Said Len. AA and BBBEE are just misunderstood by some who think with their emotions rather than their logic. I used to work for a company that rarely employed Blacks and let alone deploying the little there was in executive positions. AA doesn't say 'Swap white with black'..It merely seeks to strike a balance btwn population & the workforce. However some companies misinterpret the law into reckless recruitment. Skills shortage is a child of the apartheid regime the regime must take the blam.

craig 11/25/2008 11:06:15 AM
@ Lucky Ralawe did you send your comment in via sms? Otherwise, please learn to type correctly, it's very annoying to see "sms style" typing when we're talking about grown-up things. How old are you, 12?

Bingo 11/25/2008 11:09:07 AM
Len, show me 1x 40 year old white male, without matric, who has been employed in the last 10 years. REMOVE THE LOG FROM YOUR EYE BEFORE REMOVING THE SPLINTER IN OTHERS.

Dan 11/25/2008 11:11:11 AM
at contorting the truth to make a trap for fools. With apology to Rudyard. I take it you have empirical proof for all the wild statements you are dishing out. As an example "For an Auditor, Werner van Der Merwe shows remarkable ignorance or arrogance in not acknowledging that the biggest beneficiaries of AA have been white women" What a load of utter BS.

KoosS 11/25/2008 11:12:06 AM
Len, wake up and smell the roses - your definition of AA is what is used overseas. The reality in SA is a "representative" workforce. You are either ignorant or devious.

Dan 11/25/2008 11:15:12 AM
at contorting the truth to make a trap for fools. With apology to Rudyard. I take it you have empirical proof for all the wild statements you are dishing out. As an example "For an Auditor, Werner van Der Merwe shows remarkable ignorance or arrogance in not acknowledging that the biggest beneficiaries of AA have been white women" What a load of utter BS.

TJK 11/25/2008 11:20:36 AM
I am really sad to have read this article. Len, you have always been an excellent commentator, but todays article you have really showed that you are ignorant. As a white african I am pro AA/EE for reasons from a social/historic point of view, but your reasons you gave is one sided and uninformed. You are using statistics proved wrong and opinions used around a braai between a couple of blokes trying to make sense out of chaos to make your points. AA/EE is necessary, but you have missed the pot.

Gogga 11/25/2008 11:21:39 AM
You mention one Department whos own house is not even clean but which to advice on other Departments who btw is so political corrupt in the way it abuse AA and BEEE .. If I could I would name "It" but I work for the "It" department. These articles does not help as it comes down to the individuals it might be a paper perfect world but in reality its a different story.. facts!

Green skin 11/25/2008 11:22:57 AM
I went through all processes at Eskom and was recommended for appointment only for the trade unions (Black) to object against me being appointed, because I am white, never mind that I was the best candidate, with 2 degrees and 15 years relevant expe. This was communicated by a black person working at Eskom to me. So don't talk shiiiit. The trade unions should not have a "black mail" say in appointments. This happens at all government/semi-government institutions. AA does not exist in SA only BEE

David 11/25/2008 11:24:33 AM
Please tell me that the ESKOM, SAA fiasco is not due to AA.

Gus 11/25/2008 11:24:57 AM
Please all, bear one thing in mind here. The people responsible for Apartheid in this country are either dead or close to retiring Afrikaners. Unfortunately the young to middle aged white workforce is bearing the full brunt from the apartheid regime

Michael 11/25/2008 11:25:12 AM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with well implemented AA program. One problem comes in when companies don't do it in a manner that allows for the transfer of skills. Skills transfer is a win-win situation. The party being replaced is employed for a longer time, giving more time to find other employment, and new employee acquires the necessary skills. Companies are too quick to offer early retirement, and bring on AA replacements without giving them the skills if they don't have them already.

gatsby 11/25/2008 11:27:27 AM
Just read the comments on this topic. Why is it that the ones who are the most opposed to AA and BEE policies use such foul language. I would not appoint anyone who swears like that (and often the spelling is suspect)Wake up people take charge of your own lives, stop playing the victim, and whingeing 24/7 and make your own future. Nobody is going to do it for you, and if you haven't realised that yet just blame your own lack of insight.

LL 11/25/2008 11:32:16 AM
Incompetence is not the exclusive preserve of AA appointess only. I have come across incompetent whites holding senior positions and what do we do about them. Think about the Leisurenet crooks, Fidentia, Saambou, Dealstream and other corruption by so-called competent whites. I still maintain that whites with rare skills will never feel the effects of AA/EE. Only those with abundant skill will suffer because there will be more black candidates to compete with.

Richard Hipkin 11/25/2008 11:39:37 AM
But with a skills shortage that is terrifying surely AA quotas should fall away for skilled shortages? We are looking for highly skilled IT professionals and there just are not any blacks that fit that demand, but we can't hire white people?? I support AA whole heartedly but not when it is blatantly racist in some areas of the law. We have posts lying vacant for months waiting for a AA candidate to furfill but so far no one has the skill and therefore cannot provide the servicehow is this helping

Lotus 11/25/2008 11:43:13 AM
Some minister or parliamentarian admitted to SCOPA that his departments funds were mismanaged because a large proportion of his managers were not qualified. Really? Why were they hired,who made the decisions to hire them? Was the employment decision based on AA/BEE policy or nepotism. I am an Asian female with a degree and I applied for a post that was filled by a black male, he was later prosecuted for abuse of the children in his care.

Sean 11/25/2008 11:44:23 AM
Len, you are living in a dream world. One just has to have a look at government departments to see what AA has accomplished. A perfect example would be the recent news about the top managers in the Home Affairs department. 70% is not a small number at all. Who are we going to blame for that? The government who makes up the laws, or the government who employed incompetent people? I have always been for who ever is best suited for the job should get it, regardless of race and gender!

Ginger 11/25/2008 11:45:49 AM
All people should be hired on skills not colour. This means also white people working on checkout tils and digging ditches. What we need is a heap load more jobs, better education and a none racist system where people work at what they can actually do. Say no to enforced percentages and no to nepotism. Say yes to skill level placement.

Lily 11/25/2008 11:51:05 AM
I agree in principle with AA - but not with how it has been implemented. I was a permanent employee with a Tertiary Institute. After 6 years in the position I was replaced with a contract worker who had no experience in the field. I poured heart and soul into that job thinking hard work and loyalty would get me somewhere..Pity that these days those qualities are no longer valued. It is high time that we are all equal when applying for jobs.

Lucky Ralawe 11/25/2008 11:56:14 AM
For the umpteenth time, white employers were forced to give QUALIFIED black people equal opportunities, and they refused, preferring their white candidates and happily perpetuating the status quo. The EE Act, 1998 was then enacted to force them, and some are still happily paying fines and refusing to comply. AA candidates understand the rationale, and are therefore not ashamed. I know because I am one with my 2 UCT degrees for which I slaved. Take that to the bank, or Oranjia if you want.

Craig 11/25/2008 12:00:46 PM
What a badly researched and written article! I have seldom read such weak arguments, speculative comment, emotional silliness as the drivle contained in this shambles. News24 should be ashamed that they published such rubbish.

Kal-El 11/25/2008 12:02:46 PM
Your argument is fundamentally flawed. The point about white men without matric: Is this based on an official study or research? If so, please point me to the report. It is clear you do not understand the current world financial crisis. The international banking crisis is not related to management or staff competency! It has to do with the economic and credit policies. Our Credit Act saved us as clearly pointed out by Trevor himself. Have you been watching news the past 10 years? What tight ship are you referring to? Things are falling apart all around you. You are so biased and subjective while you preach being objective. I have heard horror stories (from sources I would deem reliable) of incompetence in the work place due to AA. And we all have. You cannot ignore these even if you want to. So go on preaching your pro-ANC propaganda. I am sure you have many supporters out there.

Big Bad Bob 11/25/2008 12:03:58 PM
Had some very interesting figures. He quotes unemployment nationally at 26%. Then tells us "Fifteen percent of white South Africans are without work or income." OK... even if "without work or income" excludes scholars and those who are retired or incapacitated (does it Werner?) then percentage unemployment for whites is significantly less than the national percentage. So who is hard done by here?

Lily 11/25/2008 12:06:44 PM
I had the perfect job, was doing it for 6 years. Then I was replaced by a contract worker who had no experience or qualifications for the position - thanks to AA It took almost 5 years to recover financially. At least I can look myself in the mirror each day knowing that I got my current position on merit and experience and NOT because of the colour of my skin. We are all supposed to be equal before the law - why are we not equal then when it comes to applying for work?

sara 11/25/2008 12:11:40 PM
For the umpteenth time, white employers are forced to employ QUALIFIED black people equal opportunities with FAKE CV'S

PRIGO 11/25/2008 12:11:42 PM
I work for one of the majot banks in SA. My bank gets fined by the govt for not being Bee compliant year after year. They have a lot of money so they dont feel the pinch. Not much is being implimented coz most management positions are still held by them Volks. the govt can only set a law in place but its upto to SMEs to impliment. The question is: How do these pvt companies impliment/manipulate the law. Dont blame the law guys. Its a fact, the white minority still hold most of management posts.

sara 11/25/2008 12:14:37 PM
For the umpteenth time, white employers are forced to employ QUALIFIED black people, and when push comes to shove, they have no idea what they doing and have FAKE CV'S! So for the umpteenth time, give jobs to whoever is TRULY qualified irrespective of race or color. LEN you dissapoint me!

Andrew 11/25/2008 12:16:08 PM
ANY POLICY THAT EXCLUDES OR INCLUDES PEOPLE ON THE SIMPLE BASIS OF SKIN COLOUR IS A RACIST POLICY CLEAR AND SIMPLE. There should be equal oportunity whether for employment or sport. We need to develop people early in life to compete on an equal footing and this is the area which needs all our attention and funding.Stop this nonsense of arriving on the 11th hour cap in hand having done nothing to better yourself and relying on AA/BEE to take you on.....AJ

Big Bad Bob 11/25/2008 12:20:13 PM
A shot of reality is always a good thing. I am ... well way over 40, pale male, and changed jobs this year, moving to a company that prides itself on having one of the best AA scorecards of all JSE listed companies. No problem. Nice signing on bonus. No... I am not an executive, nor do I have embarassing photos of the CEO.

Me 11/25/2008 12:21:52 PM
Just a thought: Even before education is planning to have only the amount of children you can afford I know all about the historical reasoning but what about current economic reality?

Kabous 11/25/2008 12:22:57 PM
South Africa - the only country in the world where AA is used to protect a minority from a majority. I fell victim to AA on no less than 3 occasions - even got offered a 6 month contract to train an incompetent black woman in a position I applied for. I think it would indeed be fair to say that 'Sef Efrika' has had a serious stoke from which it is not going to recover - ever...

Vulindlela Xundu 11/25/2008 12:29:59 PM
Some people will never be able to embrace the changes that have taken place in this country. If a person feels the way affirmative action is implemented is wrong, they shouldn't go around spreading lies that black South Africans get jobs only because they're black. People who feel certain policies should be revamped should mobilise and find proper ways of channeling their dissatisfaction without poisoning the minds of young white south africans who want to make a valuable contribution to this country. Some people are accustomed to the benefits of the apartheid system, sharing those exclusive benefits with everyone in the whole country doesn't make them look like they're benefits anymore. It's not all whites want the apartheid system back, but some very few long for it. Trying to change those people's ways of seeing things is futile. I have great hopes that the youngsters of today, black or white, have a chance to change things in this country to benefit everyone who live in it, and live together in harmony irrespective of skin pigmentation, gender, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, or whatever class a person falls under in our society. Let's help the younger generation to be better leaders and role models than we have been. We have the Congress of the People that is a great opportunity to each and every South African who wants to change things and have their voice heard.

Kevin 11/25/2008 12:51:00 PM
It really sucks when my black friends who grew up with me and went to my schools and now sit next to me at work get paid more than I do because they are black. It also sucks when my girlfriend works 7 days a week, has the highest qualifications to teach, but cannot get a job as all university positions are 'Blacks Only'. There is nothing you can say to that...

Sinudeity@Gmail.com 11/25/2008 12:53:02 PM
BEE/AA Equal to Apartheid. From 2002-2004(6?) cant remember, Tokyo and Cyril, received 75% of ALL BEE deals done in South Africa. TWO PEOPLE! How can you justify, empowering 2 millionares?! Sure, equalities need to be balanced, using SKILL TRAINING, and FUNDING for Startup black businessmen. But EXCLUDING based on skin colour, is what we faught AGAINST all those years. That makes WHITE people the "Revolutionaries".

coco 11/25/2008 12:54:23 PM
"It is always fascinating that each time someone" (whinges) is lyrical "about Affirmative Action, they show remarkable ignorance on the subject and simply use their prejudice and illogical emotions to find likeminded disciples who will agree with anything that feeds their ignorance and bias." Len van Heerden "shows remarkable ignorance or arrogance in not acknowledging that the biggest beneficiaries of AA have been" AA appointees and corrupt BEE contractors.

ElectroMan 11/25/2008 1:01:42 PM
Most people in here lack insight into that what is the problem. I am 24 yrs old (and today for the first time here in this forum will reveal that I am white). I am not arguing because I have been discriminated against because of AA, because I have luckily not been in such a situation. However, I stand up to fight for those who are discriminated against because of their age and race. The percentage of white guys applying for positions in government is so low that those who apply and have the experience, should surely be given a fair chance. Claiming that it?s managements not applying AA policies in companies are pathetic. I would like to live in a country where everyone is tested on free grounds. This goes to white guys discriminating against others of different skin color, but also to coloured people discriminating against black & white ppl, black people discriminating against coloureds and whites. I promise that in 60 years when I lay on my death bed the public sector will still be rule by majority whites, if AA is not cut loose soon. Making the government more blacks will not solve these issues. Driving more whites out of the country will only hurt SA?s image further, as well. Doing this will someday give us the situation where there are White, Black, Indian, Chinese Countries who fight against each other on basis of race. Why do you think China and the US fight so much, it?s their differences, mostly to do with culture and race.

Simon 11/25/2008 1:01:57 PM
I agree 100%. @ Len : In a global recession there are obviously more loosers than winners and in Europe obviously more of these large orporations who are managed by white people. The issue with AA is not the few fat cats sitting on boards of large SA companies but the aversge Joe Soap who, if he is white needs a few degrees, 8 years experience and a 5 - figure anual salary expectation in order to compete with an 18 year old black person with a school leaving certificate.

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vovo@ Magapane says... Magapane, you are wrong. We are not all racists. I grew up in the new SA & between our social circles we have no racial hatred. The only point where race is brought up is mutual jokes, but beyond that there has never been a hatred due to another colour. What you say is a pity, although true sadly enough, for a large number of people, both black & white.

Personally I beleive current circumstances & hardships entice racism... crime, poverty, & looking for blame... well, perhaps we should stop fighting our own RSA family & get at the real culprits behind our divisions. Illegal aliens. These are the demons that rob, steal, rape, take jobs & untimitely feed the fires of hatred between us as South Africans. Read the article...

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