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Medical Intern

South Africa
News24 User

'This is a crisis'

by Medical Intern
2009-07-03 07:45

I am a junior doctor in my first year of internship.  My basic salary is less than that of a senior bus driver. I have a degree in medicine and surgery. He has a driver's licence. The health minister's secretary is paid more than me. I did a six-year degree to get my MBChB. She did a two-month course in typing.

However, I am still willing to concede that as a junior, it is acceptable to be paid less.  What is not acceptable is that the professors who taught me, doctors with whole walls of degrees, are paid a pittance.

The medical officers, who run many of the smaller hospitals in this country, are not paid a fair salary. The trainee specialists, who are scarce skills, earn meagre wages.

The stand taken by South African doctors in recent weeks has been a long time coming. The healthcare system is on the brink of collapse, doctors are leaving in droves, and the government has quietly swept healthcare under the carpet for the last ten years. The gross under-compensation of the nation's healthcare workers is only one of the many problems in this system.

Doctors are professionals - reasonable individuals, who have resorted to mass industrial action out of sheer desperation. These people, who continue to serve the South African people despite being overworked, underpaid and underappreciated, despite compromising their families, their financial security and sometimes their own health and happiness, did not ask the government for hugely inflated salary increases.

They asked only for what is fair: that doctors working in the public sector get paid the same salary as other professionals in this sector. Fifty percent may sound like a large increase, but this figure would merely put a doctor in line with his colleagues in public sector law or accounting.

What has been offered is yet another pittance, with increases ranging between one percent for senior specialists, and 40% for interns. What this effectively means is that some doctors will receive an increase that does not even meet inflation.

The Occupations Specific Dispensation was designed to retain doctors in the public sector. For those of us that doubted that that would ever be an option, this debacle has only served to confirm that it will indeed never be an option.

The government of South Africa is never going to take healthcare seriously, it is never going to recognise that doctors are a precious resource to be respected and looked after, and as a result, it will lose this resource - to the private sector, to other countries which treat and remunerate doctors as professionals, and to other fields, where qualifications and experience are recognised.

A crucial opportunity for this government to make a statement about the importance of healthcare, by affording doctors the recognition they deserve, has fallen by the wayside, and the continued deterioration of our healthcare system will be the inevitable consequence.

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Michele 7/3/2009 7:56:54 AM
@Medical Intern. Unfortunately, I have to agree with you! Its disgusting what our doctors/teachers/nurses etc are paid. This is one of the reasons I pay for my medical aid BEFORE I even pay my bond! I lost my best friend ever because he did not have medical aid and landed in a state hospital where the nurses and doctors were unfortunately, over worked, underpaid and seemed to have lost all interest. I have no advice to offer but...... G_d bless you for the work you are doing!

mmm 7/3/2009 8:06:23 AM
Very well written I must admit, factual as well. Its really shocking what these professionals earn...I dont blame them for leaving...and no im not white so dont try using that pathetic apartheid card on me...

Roy Greig 7/3/2009 8:07:27 AM
Some of the comments on this page will state that the medical profesiional are not really important as they prefer traditional healers.

Marc 7/3/2009 8:08:01 AM
I'd like to know what are the salaries being earned by doctors these days. I'm sure its low but I might be shocked to know exactly how low. I support the strike 100%.

Halfwise 7/3/2009 8:11:56 AM
The problem is, you guys thinks that you are the most important part of this country, security gaurds are as important as you guys.

Sinudeity 7/3/2009 8:21:20 AM
The JZ's and the Malemas are spreading the feel that having an education means, you are 'elitist'. The cracks are showing in the woodworks. The ANC does not know how to govern. Just a pity, it took a recession for South Africans to start opening their eyes. The doctors must do their thing, and then the tax payers. And if Malema wants to spread his communist ideals, he must donate ALL his assets and monies to the state first. We, as South Africans are GATVOL! Welcome to the last few years of the ANC. Jesus is coming back soon.

samsam @RICH 7/3/2009 8:23:47 AM
hehehehe, here is your gabbage, who is a fool

H 7/3/2009 8:28:08 AM
Move on to better thing this Government only cares about their own pockets and big German Cars. As long as they earn their big salaries you can forget. Move to another country and make a life for your self and your family. Soon we will have rich and poor as the middle class are being taxed to death and will disappear.

Chris 7/3/2009 8:31:42 AM
Dear Doctor, You have written a proper letter explaining very clearly what is happening and what should happen, but.....kindly inform the public what kind of salary a junior Doctor serving the Government earns during his first, second, third etc years as to make it clear what your argument is. The public is not informed and that is simply the reason for the lack of support. I wish you well.

louis cypher 7/3/2009 8:32:04 AM
When 65% of the voting public think a std 3 education is sufficient to govern an entire country, then it is evident that education is not valued within our society. You should pack up and leave now. You cannot help those that do not want your help.

Mfanafuthi 7/3/2009 8:33:10 AM
@Intern-This is too much whining now,you guys will get what you are asking for,go back to the hospital and treat people.
Just by the way do you know how much trainee accountants earn with their BCOM(HON) degree seeing that you are comparing your profession to myne as an accontant? you'll be shocked,do you know how much trainee lawyers earn? some earn as little as R1500 pm
i've seen some shocking payslips.So rather talk about your field coz that's the one you know.People are waiting with anal infections for you to inspect this morning,get back to work now.

garriga! 7/3/2009 8:34:34 AM
I cannot agree with you more. However, you did leave out something: You need to be a member of some butt-kissing forum, do some favours and hope for the best. I believe, even if it is against their morals, they should stay on strike, and if they get tossed, just leave for greener pastures. Yes, the health of the nation will be put at risk, but the message will get accross to the masses who voted in these geniuses. Then the protests which we see in the townships will be small-fry in comparison to what will happen.

Kamz 7/3/2009 8:34:41 AM
Pay our doctors!!! Stop spending money on fancy German vehicles and pay the people that contribute significantly to our society. It is an outrage that intellectuals are treated in this manner.

Don't expect much... 7/3/2009 8:36:15 AM
Senior drs are the backbone of a functional health care system, along with good management+ nursing staff. I agree that pay raises for interns are really not worth it, as one has to think of retaining health workers in the long term. What most don't realise is that a lot of the salary packages for drs is overtime, which is non-pensionable income, as well as the scarce skills allowances. If I was an intern, I'd rather go- one can see what lurks just beyond the horizon in private sector and clearly you guys shouldn't expect much from govt sector. See the Canadian drs article.

what's up doc? 7/3/2009 8:37:05 AM
doc, the argument is that you went into the medical profession to help people, so why should you be paid a high salary? Just like our ANC MP's, they are there to serve the public, so why should they be paid a high salary? Difference is that the MP's have access to the public coffers, you do not. Leave. Go to a country where you will be appreciated.

B.Pharm 7/3/2009 8:37:25 AM
I fully support and understand why you are doing this and have the utmost respect for Doctors and Pharmacist that still work in State Hospitals and Clinics. Plumbers, electricians and junior accountants earn more then I do and I've been a Pharmacist for 11 years. I've started 2 sideline businesses with high hopes. My goal is to retire as a Pharmacist in the next 2-3 years.

Nessa 7/3/2009 8:41:33 AM
Two of the most important working sectors of our country are grossly underappreciated and underdeveloped - the health, and education sectors. For people who are training to save our lives, and people who are responsible for the education of the nation, doctors and teachers are treated like prisoners paying penance instead of hardworking, skilled professionals. Give the doctors and teachers what they require to do their jobs, and live their lives. Its not just 'fair' - it's right.

Topdog 7/3/2009 8:42:15 AM
When people go on strike, my first reaction is normally - fire them. It's the same in this case. Dear intern, finish your year and then go earn in private sector what you deserve. To the fired doctors, go into the private sector, forget public sector. One day "the masses" will start striking cause their government is not supplying medical care, but that's ok - it won't be your problem.

Christo 7/3/2009 8:42:31 AM
Why don't you give us some numbers. It is time we hear the truth. According to the Sunday newspapers you will be getting more than R300 000 whereas Engineers-in-training in the public sector do not recieve more than R200 000 and Accountants-in-training get less than R100 000. Your Professor will earn R1,2 million which is double the salary of other professors in South Africa.

Alien Dude 7/3/2009 8:44:19 AM
The anc want the masses to die.That way they don't have to build houses,provide electricity and water,feed them and educate them.This is the way out of their "promises" of "a better life for all."

RUDOLF 7/3/2009 8:49:42 AM
I am not in the medical profession. As a normal human being either myself or a loved one has in the past and will in future need medical care. It scares me that, due to the neglect from government, medical care on an acceptable level will not be available to me or my loved ones. But then, those in power simply do not care.

LID 7/3/2009 8:51:59 AM
It is disgusting.....I am in support of the strike and I agree with Medical Intern that the government has no interest in healthcare....they are only interested in filling up their pockets and driving luxury cars meanwhile sick people are suffereing and dying out there.....but what can we say....we voted for this government......

Queen 7/3/2009 8:58:14 AM
I couldn't have said it better myself. Your first paragraph is an eye opener. But why is it that doctors earn less than lawyers and accountants also in the public sector??? Is saving a life not worth more....? On the news there was a protestor with a placard stating that she earns R55 an hour!! I can't imagine studying for 6yrs to earn that. I might as well lay bricks....

I Agree 7/3/2009 8:59:00 AM
Doctors in SA are working under terrible conditions and with HIV/Aids patients by the thousands due to their promiscuity. This is a crisis. The fat cat Health Minister and MEC's must rectify this situation urgently.

samsam @INTERN 7/3/2009 9:08:40 AM
Dont create havoc in the country, give space for Zim Drs, please, why doing a difficult thing instead of simple thing, the sky is the limit. You chose this career not because of money if you need money go to Canada

Wisdom @ Halfdom 7/3/2009 9:09:06 AM
The security guards are a bunch of thugs! You cannot compair the two

Sinudeity @Mfanafuthi 7/3/2009 9:10:22 AM
You are not honestly, comparing doctors to lawywers are you?! Lawyers and politicians are scumbags of the same calibre. Doctors save lives, politicians and lawyers screw people over.

Realist 7/3/2009 9:16:21 AM
Did you become a doctor just to get rich? Or to help people with your extremely specialised skill? I hear your argument, but unfortunately as with everything else in this country, everything went downhill when the ANC took over. My old man left the navy as soon as Mandela was released from prison, there was no way he was going to work for a black owned state. And I think the proof is in the pudding, as you have said the government has swept health care under the carpet for the last 10 years. Bite the bullet and do the job you have studied for so long and hopefully you are passionate about, and hope that it turns, or complete your studies and open your own practice, screw the government.

@halfwise 7/3/2009 9:16:59 AM
so next time you get sick, go see a security guard.

@Christo 7/3/2009 9:17:53 AM
Dear Christo: Engineers dont have to do after hours( one night per week - whole night on you feet) or weekends ( one in three - that means being on duty for +- 56 hours without a break). Doctors do. That is why they earn more- they do more hours. There is also a shortage abroad, and they are paid three times what they get here in state. Engineers, Accountants and laywers will still be able to go into private sector, but doctors, like pharmacists, are being squeezed out of private sector because govt wants to institiute national health. The implication for the average SA citizen is that less doctors will eventually be in SA, and you might have to use national health yourself. Then the 1 billion used to improve govt sect salaries wont seem like much, unlike +- 260 billion Eskom wants.

lekabisto 7/3/2009 9:22:34 AM
@Author, I feel your pain n support the strike 100% you need to be paid what you are worth and the government need to realize that as they clearly dont. Crisis indeed this is as now the Health system is cracking down and i wonder which one will folow next until they all cramble all because the Government has their head up their own asses.

@halfwise, how the hell do u as a security guard have internet access over there? should you not be guarding buildins somewhere and stop comparing your profession to a Doctors profession!!!!

motswanagape 7/3/2009 9:22:52 AM
If ur poor or don't have medical aid just pray you don't get sick.Peter Tosh said"only the poor man a feel it".The rich(Dr's,Members of parliament,Accountants,Lawyers,Middle class etc:u all belong to the same mother);One day the poor people will wake up,put us in one sack and burn us all up ,Black or white.

samsam @INTERN 7/3/2009 9:24:24 AM
Dont create havoc in the country, give space for Zim Drs, please, why doing a difficult thing instead of simple thing, the sky is the limit. You chose this career not because of money if you need money go to Canada

BLACKsoWHAT! 7/3/2009 9:25:33 AM
I've always told my family members, if anything were to happen to me pls do not take me to a public hospital (Bara) just let me die wherever precisely because some of you guys are never available, which means you have been on strike for ages now. I hope when they do give you your "deserved" salaries i'd reconsider my sentiments.

Mike 7/3/2009 9:25:51 AM
I got divorced recently. My ex wife is a state doctor. I can't blame her job entirely on our marriage breaking down, but it certainly contributed. She is always stressed out, overworked and frustrated because of her job. On top of that she does not earn a high salary and struggles to make ends meet. Really this is a huge problem. Doctors look after the health of the public, but who is looking after them? They are only human after all.

@Mfanafuthi @halfwise 7/3/2009 9:26:59 AM
do you know who the real fools are? The millions of South Africans who have died in the past 15 years because of the ANC's health policies. First it was the cuban doctors. Then it was the Vegetables to cure AIDS - so no retro's. Then it was gross mismanagement of state hospitals. Now it is such pathetic wages for doctors in State hospitals that they are leaving. So the real fools are the ANC supporters, millions more are going to die due to the mismanagement of the South African health care system. And the fact that you keep on voting for this gross incompetance means that the folks that want to help you are not able to do so. Our skilled resources are leaving South Africa and this means that other people are going to benefit while those of us left in South Africa are going to suffer. Great, isn't it?

Elsje 7/3/2009 9:27:45 AM
I agree,doctors are not being paid a reasonable salary.Look at the hours they have to work.Anybody that cannot see this is a gross injustice,are plain stupid.

Baboon 7/3/2009 9:29:35 AM
Well and clearly stated. It's certainly time - past time - that people who have given their lives to the running of small country hospitals get more recognition (and that means money) than beaurocrats. It's fuelling the collapse of our state hospitals which in turn means the Medical Aids can rip those who can afford it off and the rest get left to die.

El C;assico 7/3/2009 9:31:01 AM
@Medical Intern
I guess you're also disillusioned that the life of a doctor is not as it's portrayed on Grey's Anatomy & ER!! Tone down on the God complex & maybe you'll garner more support.

samsam @SINUDEITY 7/3/2009 9:31:28 AM
whaaaat,We, as South Africans are GATVOL!,who are you representing SAs or AWB, ANc was voted by 66% we are happy dayin/out,rather call Jesus to come quicker/sooner,or may be Im not sure whether you refer to DEVIL who was here pre94

eish @Halfwise 7/3/2009 9:37:37 AM
Halfwise you are a idiot

Ranter 7/3/2009 9:39:59 AM
My son broke his leg. An orthopedic came there, looked at the x-ray said "Yes it's broken. Put him in traction." He then left, he was there for less than 60 seconds. The bill? R 1800. A GP visit is R285 for 15 minutes if that, the is between R 1140 and R 1425 an hour. I do not think doctors are underpaid at all!

EM 7/3/2009 9:43:00 AM
@Mfanafuthi - Big difference... accountants and lawyers don't have to deal with life and death decisions on a daily basis, accountants and lawyers never gets called upon to make these decisions while doing two or more 24 hour plus shifts in a single week.

@halfwise 7/3/2009 9:44:23 AM
if security guards ae as important as doctors, then surely it follows that they are also as important as MP's and Zuma (our very highly educated president). So how come do these public "servants" earn so much more than everyone else? At least doctors actually do perform a public service - they save lives. All the ANC MP's seem to do is mess everything up (you know the list - and every month it is getting longer). They earn huge salaries and perform very little, if any, public service. Just wait until you or a loved one get really sick and has to rely on the state health system. You will then be singing a very different tune.

louis cypher @halfwise 7/3/2009 9:48:43 AM
this is not your South Africa, or my South Africa, it is OUR South Africa. It is OUR childrens South Africa. Each person who leaves South Africa (especially skilled people) is a tragedy. It is a HUGE loss for the country and it's future. In the long run we will ALL lose out, but especially our children. I am amazed that people like you just shrug it off. Don't you care about your childrens future?

Rich@SAMSAM 7/3/2009 9:48:48 AM
The facts laid forth here as I stated to you yesterday! Pity you can't acknowledge you were wrong and are misguided by ignorance and the liars who for government and the government propaganda machine (SABC)

ARYAN 7/3/2009 9:52:33 AM
Falling standards are the norm in African countries. These marxists running the country does not care about your salary. They only care about their ideology. The more the standards drop the less people will expect and this will ensure that everybody in future will be living off government grants in a shack. How better way to controll the masses by making them dependant on the state.

jabu 7/3/2009 9:54:44 AM
Doctors, nurses and teachers can be paid more but it will mean a massive tax hike that most of us will not accept!

SimonP 7/3/2009 9:55:54 AM
Thanks, halwise and samsam for such brilliant contributions, it really goes top show you have no solid arguements. Mfanafuthi, a BCON(HON) earning R1500 a month? Anyone accepting such a pittance must be as stupid as your average ANC supporter.

vankuijeren14@halfwise 7/3/2009 9:58:37 AM
ill re-post it...read this again to yourself and tell me,you dont think its the work of an idiot.
"The problem is, you guys(doctors) thinks that you are the most important part of this country, security gaurds are as important as you guys(doctors)."
pack your helmet and crayons,someone is coming to get you soon,nutter.

Tricia Martin 7/3/2009 9:58:49 AM
yes, I totally agree with you, BUT!!!!! surely people know what kind of salary to expect when they go into whatever sphere of work they go into?? There are lots of people, in various sectors, that should be paid a heck of a lot more than they are.

hear hear 7/3/2009 9:59:15 AM
@Mfanafuthi You can't compare trainee accountants with doctors.
I've never heard of an accountant working a 36 hr shift. If a trainee accountant makes a mistake on a balance sheet - so what? Doctors work under enormous pressure and save lives. They deserve to be paid and treated as professionals. The whole country should be behind them.

zaki 7/3/2009 9:59:19 AM
all the money for salary increases has been spent by Anc on Gautrain, 2010 Stadium and Stupid arms deals now SA is bankrupt

mttric002@Christo 7/3/2009 9:59:26 AM
From the Governments latest offer, Interns will earn R314000, this includes there pension, medical aid and a rural allowance(~R30000) which they cannot claim, as no intern is allowed to train in a rural clinic at present, thus their take home yearly income before tax is closer to R200000, this all equates to a 42% increase on the total package.

VG 7/3/2009 9:59:54 AM
I have mus sympathy for your position, Jnr Doc and wish you allt he best in your efforts. But, ti must be said that everyone thinks they deserve better. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, university researchers amd lecturers, lawyers, policemen etc etc all deserve to earn more than they do - but where realistically, are we expecting this money to come from? even if govt were to fire every MP, Minister, MPL, Premier etc the amoutn"saved" wouldn't come close to the wage demands of govt's 180 000+ employees so taxes will definitely have to go up - and if one thinks about how everyone moaned about the electricity increase...

SimonP 7/3/2009 10:04:07 AM
I would like to hear the view of a sensible ANCer (if there uis one) on this issue. It appears they are remaining very quiet. Perhaps they cant bring themselves to admit the ANC are at fault here.

turbo_superboss 7/3/2009 10:04:30 AM
show me international best practice examples of where a strike by doctors in the public sector resulted in an improvement in public health care. I seriously doubt you will find an example like that because strikes by doctors in the public sector won't lead to improvements. People are dying because doctors are not attending to the patients.

TL 7/3/2009 10:07:07 AM
Please give us numbers? what the salary range, and how much incerase was given to you? How much did you spend for your education?

Glock 22 c 7/3/2009 10:12:10 AM
get out of the public sector its bankrupt can you not see that ? If you are so qualified you should not have a problem to find a job in a PVT hospital. Leave the bankrupt collapsing health care system to the anc and the masses. They dont mind that. They are happy with systems like that

Conjecture 7/3/2009 10:12:15 AM
I believe from informed sources that both the government and the doctors have been guilty of obfuscation. Granted, increases won't be as high as the government is making out. However, it is also a matter of conjecture as to whether doctors are paid enough. Some of the senior doctors work about 3 days a week and get take-home pay of around R50 000 per month. Some also practice privately in addition to this. Doctors who say they get about R8 000 per month are lying. They have not divulged that the R8 000 is net after tax, medical aid, housing subsidy, etc. And they have excluded their scarce skills and overtime payments. Remember, many of them are still in training too. The strikers should rather turn their attention to the overall stability of the system and improving working their working conditions bearing in mind the developing nature of the country in which they operate. In a country such as ours where resources are so skewed in favour a few, a major overhaul is needed, not in doctors salaries, but in the entire healthcare system. Otherwise go overseas and let the developing world take care of itself. There are many top quality developing world doctors who would love to work in SA.

Jann 7/3/2009 10:19:41 AM
Fully agree with this article. What are our sleeping MP's earning? At least 10 times what a doctor earns and who needs them? @Mfanafuthi. Everytime you go to see a doctor, he holds your life in his hands. The same cannot be said for lawyers and accountants!

Alicia 7/3/2009 10:26:23 AM
Beautiful letter. Sad...so sad. You made me cry. Respect no. 1. you are not getting from government. How can they treat you this way. Being and becoming a physician is an honourable dedication to your fellow humans. Being paid peanuts for all your hard work is an unbearable insult to your integrity and your person. Do...all of you, what you have to do. Look at the massive salaries those in government positions are giving themselves. A mayor of a small town writes out a cheque for himself of app. R750,000 per month. That is the route of the evil. We pay taxes, but the money all lands up in the wrong pockets.
We are behind you. Stand strong. We understand and forgive whatever might go wrong. God Bless you All.

Andrew 7/3/2009 10:27:37 AM
Its so sad that our government would rather have a bridge built than save a a life. because civil engineers are paid way more than doctors.just give the doctors what they want because its the poor who are suffering.

Goutie 7/3/2009 10:28:41 AM
Fire half of the extended useless Goverment and our under educated President and pay the Doctors that they are worth!! atleast they are earning their salaries and providing a service to the country. Goverment and their so called "leader" useless!!

MLS@halfwise (halfwit?) 7/3/2009 10:29:46 AM
Perhaps one day when you have cancer you can ask a security guard for some muti. Are you a security guard, Halfwise? Certainly seems so, judging from the quality of your comments in general.

BB 7/3/2009 10:31:58 AM
@ Halfwise, yes they are just as important the one is unfortunately a scarce resource which takes years to train and the other you can kick out behind every bush. I support the doctors 100%, funny how they get flack and but when the stupid metro cops strike in support of their idiot colleagues on trial for becoming violent criminals during a previous strike, it is alright. Stay on strike until your demands are met, go doctors!

anno 7/3/2009 10:33:43 AM
I have just found out from an intern who started this year. basic salary is arount R9000.00 per month (including benefits - pension, bonus and medical) plus a further R5000.00 per month for overtime (this is an fixed amount). These people earns a lot of money and they still complain, i think it is wrong

Hennie 7/3/2009 10:35:02 AM
The end result is that the few doctors who remain in SA can charge what they want. That is how the market works.
Only the rich will be able to afford them. The vast majority of South Africans (even those emploed) will not have access to quality doctors. Is this what govt want. But this is what is happening already.

griet 7/3/2009 10:35:47 AM
As someone who knows the situation in themedical profession well, I am proud of the young, mainly black, doctors who come from a proud tradition of fighting injustice. Gone are the little Stepford slaves produced during the apartheid era.Under communist rule drs were deemed dispensable(see Cuba)and we are following that route. I hope young people are now clear on which career NOT to follow, as the worst is still to come- the NRI, which will destroy the private sector and give nothing in return.

SimonP 7/3/2009 10:36:11 AM
Samsam "we are happy dayin/out". You are happy that life expectancy has drop by ten years, you are happy with falling standards? Just one question: Why are you happy with this? If you can explain this it will help us to understand why you and your ilk seem to want SA to remain in freefall.

Willie @ halfwise and friends 7/3/2009 10:39:07 AM
You condem them striking, just funny we learned it from your kind now you complain!

Andrew 7/3/2009 10:46:26 AM
I would happily stop my medical aid payments and rather pay more tax for better paid state doctors and better public hospitals, if I could be sure the medical care I could get would be of a high standard and could be free.

Aneeqah 7/3/2009 10:47:01 AM
I fully agree, what doctors get paid is a joke.no wonder they are leaving this country.

Rich@Conjecture 7/3/2009 10:54:20 AM
You make a valid point, but housing subsidies do not get given to the majority of Drs, so it doesn't really count. The R8000 banded about is the take home salary of most interns after tax. Yes they do get medical aid and fixed overtime (no matter how many hours are work), but no Dr I know is arguing about the intern increase or salary. Their main concern is the medical officers who form the backbone of the health profession, these Drs are being offered a total package increase between 0.4% to 2%. Which equates to a take home salary of R300000 -R400000 per annum based on experience. This compared to the R600000-R800000 for state accountants and MPs who do very little other than sleep (MPs, not accountants)

SimonP 7/3/2009 10:56:38 AM
@Anno, you think R14000 is too much? MECs get R83000 a month for car allowance now tell me doctors are overpaid.

AA 7/3/2009 10:57:38 AM
@samsam: You and your Zim doctors. Yes, lets spend all this money to pass on the knowledge just to get some Zim doc (do they actually have proper docs there?) to replace them. Fabulous. Idiots like you are running this country and the ANC into the ground, but alas before that you were living in the bush hiding, so what do you have to lose?

@Halfwise: Oh yes, the security guard who introduces unsafeness (would we need them if we had a proper police force not a bunch of illiterates and would we need them if your family wasn't constantly stealing so much) is worth the same as someone that cures people from deadly diseases. Oh wait, how long did the security guard study? Did he have to do practical work (yes, sleep on the job, or rob the person he is supposed to protect)? If Communists like you take over, I'll be the first to take up arms against you. Because its little couch Communists like you the put a splendid country like SA into the dark ages. Go see for yourself how "advanced" the former Communist states are these days.

samsam @EVERYBODY 7/3/2009 11:03:05 AM
FYI, The times,3/7/2009,p.4"violent crime in london on par with SA"; and Sowetan,3/7/2009,p.4"Academic institutions must change and bring back FETs" pls. read those newspapers and stop writing all NEGETATIVE things about our ANC we love. Remember my previous comment I said BLADE must be fast to transform Univ of Stell hehehe, now is the time.@RICH/SIMONP, you dont have degrees/you didnt go to universities shutup, let me help you, salaries are benchmarked, interns are earning aroud R1800 all over my partner was an intern at Earnest &Young earning R1,8pm it doesn’t matter Drs term of training after 8yrs it is still a junior degree(GP). No person like to be treated by a GP

M 7/3/2009 11:04:32 AM
@VG: Wow, you spotted that the money has to come from somewhere. So my dear brother, did you vote for the ANC? Because if you did, you don't really understand your own question because even in the freedom charter they speak of free this and free that FOR ALL South Africans ...

Bummer. You should have spotted the mistake right then in there. The ANC was founded on something that will NEVER exit because in this country are too lazy to WORK for their money, PAY their taxes, ABIDE by the law etc

Yura Tule 7/3/2009 11:14:19 AM
I'd like to point out the obvious - We need doctors and they cannot simply be replaced by anyone off the street.
These people on strike are not only doing it to get paid what they deserve but they are trying to improve things for everybody who will ever need to go to a government hospital.
Compare this strike to the tyre burning, intimidating, violent thug taxi drivers that brought the country to a standstill for no other reason than pure selfish greed.
I say good on you and good luck to you.

Remotesite African Medic 7/3/2009 11:14:49 AM
@ Medical Intern. Congrats Doc, now your actually learning start. The field of medicine is very special, been it for 16 years already. Secondly you got higher Edu qualification than our Pres! He only got Grade 4 so good for you.
Regarding the pitiful salaries, yes I agree, that's why I'm providing my knowledge to other customers. I'm sorry but we are not recognised in SA for our skills and knowledge. All I say to is to grab the opportunity to gain knowledge during your period of internship and com service. The world awaits for your knowledge. Let the ministers do as they wish, they are real money suckers. In any other REAL developed countries, the state officials are scrutinised if they would pull out new Merc ML AMG's within their first month in office.
I'm sorry but yes SAs politicians are money grabbing thugs that's all I can say.

Fred Basset 7/3/2009 11:17:06 AM
I would encourage all docs worth their salt to drop the Hypocratic Oath and look out for No1. Go private and those of us that wish for healthcare will pay our medical aids for it. According to the regular nuts on this forum, the masses can be treated by security guards. Suits me just fine!
The sooner the idiots die at the hand of their security guard brothers, the sooner we can turn the whole of Africa into a wonderful game park and enjoy the elitist life we have worked so hard for!

Win 7/3/2009 11:17:53 AM
Halfwise......Half a brain as usual! or is there one! The other half must have split a long time ago. You must be a security guard!

WHITEY 7/3/2009 11:23:42 AM
Some poeple are busy blaming the anc for all these salaries. Were the doctors getting good salaries pre 94. When did the anc get change public servants salaries?

Postcolonialist 7/3/2009 11:24:44 AM
Oh I so hate myself ... but, REALLY! .. Samsam! You are a very confused Kitty! But your Piece-de-resistance is "No person like to be treated by a GP". Cool by me. So, what WOULD you prefer? A specialist Neurosurgeon? A Security Guard? A Sangoma? George Bush? Ouch. You really do need to breathe and UNDERSTAND what you read. It's a jungle out there ...

@halfwise 7/3/2009 11:28:48 AM
Youre right about the security guards. as my daughter says, if someones breaking into your house call the men in the flapjacks(flak jackets) , not the police. Thanks for pointing out how the present injustice government has failed south africans so badly wrt to security that we have to hire rent-a-cops, rather than the cops that our tax money pays for. Idiot.

Alien Dude @sammie 7/3/2009 11:29:34 AM
Your intelligence is astounding.Do you ever read the drivel you post ? Oh....and your anc sucks...

Sinudeity @samsam 7/3/2009 11:33:04 AM
Dude, just STFU please. You are making yourself look like an IDIOT, with your desperate rambling there. Violent crime in london up to date with SA? LOL, how can you say that?! We dont even have crime stats. Liek the chancellor said, THE ANC DOES NOT OWN THE UNIVERSITIES! The ANC you love? The same ANC that has STOLEN BILLIONS from people on the ground? Dude, wake up, its not the same ANC that helped end apartheid. Its now a bunch of GREEDY, self-serving politicians, that got a taste of greed. Wake up out of your DREAMWORLD! See what is going on around you! You voted Mbeki into power did you not? And how did that turn out? Face it sammie, YOU. VOTED. FOR MBEKI! And how did that turn out? For once, would you listen to the SENSIBLE people?

Conjecture 7/3/2009 11:35:17 AM
@Rich: Thanks for input. Should we not mount a wave of protest then against overpaid professions in the public sector? Everyone seems to be benchmarking against an obvious anomaly. And yes, administrative departments in the public sector do seem to be a little bloated at present & the current administration has signalled promising intent to deal with it. A take-home salary of R300000 -R400000 seems more than comfortable to me for a young medical graduate. Also, let's deal with the profligacy in the private medical sector too. Like @Andrew, I would also far rather spend my monthly medical aid contribution bolstering & even cross subsidising the state sector and restoring normality there rather than contributing to shiny Porches & Beamers of both the medical aid company shareholders and private doctors.

Jameel 7/3/2009 11:35:57 AM
I never believed that public servants (whether you have a golden degree) should earn enormous salaries. The question is are you in the field of medicine for the money or for doing what you have taken an oath for? Priests, police, doctors, government ministers, presidents, professors et al, you chose a profession based on how to make life better for the community, thus i fail to see how you can complaint of money? Change your job to where commercial value seems to be attractive.

Faqu 7/3/2009 11:44:25 AM
Its quite sad that once we were renowned for our Health system and its professionals and now its just a damn mockery to the people who work in those crappy conditions because our government has managed to screw up most of what we were famous for in the world's eyes. Our Education & Health systems are shot, our Power stations are weak, SABC is dead & cities are filthier than ever, + we all live in in constant fear thx to crime and a weak Justice system! Thank You ANC for your selfish get rich schemes and constantly breaking promises & looking after yourselves! When will my brothers in Africa wake up & realize that ANC + African mentality are not the solution to all "OUR" problems! I feel for all you who are suffering...I am sorry I can't do more to help my brethren!

michael 7/3/2009 12:03:38 PM
I have a relative working as an intern who according to him earns R18000 a month before tax. I think that is a great salary to start off with - knowing that law graduates and accountants earn peanuts compared to that (around R8000 if they lucky). I know that the interns aren't the issue here but I can't believe that doctors with 10 years experience earn that little if an intern earns THAT much and now is also supposed to get a 40% increase????

SimonP 7/3/2009 12:07:29 PM
@Samsam, WTF has crime stats and academic institutions got to do with the doctors strike? One minute you quote the press next minute you say the media should not be believed (Double standards again Sammie)Im guessing because you have been proved wrong in typical ANC style you change the subject. What does my education have to do with expressing opinion (BTW I do have degrees) "You dont have a degree so shutup"?? Why does no one like being treated by a GP? .

Andrew 7/3/2009 12:08:28 PM
State doctors do care about their patients. If they did not care they would have left the state service by now for work overseas or in the private sector, since they get payed so much more there. That state doctors are striking shows just how frustrated and underpaid they are. I think government should make retention of state doctors a priority. Even if it means appropriating money from elsewhere, like MP's salaries

Spoonfeederxxx@samsam 7/3/2009 12:21:39 PM
Are you a moron? No? How do you know for sure? All I can say is, pray, pray loud and pray vigourously when the day comes you are wheeled into a state hospital theatre, and as they inject you with a needle that's been used twenty times before you, that you wake up again without missing limbs and gangreen... I was told the green looks really nice on black skin... Now answer my question, I'd love to read your incoherent response... Second thoughts become a state doctor, you are the type of doctor the govenment is looking for...

tim 7/3/2009 12:37:25 PM
To Ranter....exactly!! you are correct. You went to a PRIVATE doctor, it is the State doctors that are striking not the PRIVATE ones. We want to stay in the state!

PATHDOG 7/3/2009 12:52:23 PM
@anno & @jameel & @conjecture

lets do some math
5yr study= 5xR80 000 study loan, 1st paycheck only after 5 yrs.....
then 2 year internship & 1 year comm service (frequently in less scenic spots in SA)
Incomprehensible working conditions, hours and responsibility.
To qualify as pathologist (or other speciality) another 4-5 years with study loans (if pathology then must sign 6/7 yr contract with NHLS to do 2 years xtra post qualify- only speciality @ this moment with this)
-that is 13 years post school + 2 years on top of that working for the state lab sevice (NHLS)= 15 Years
-@ current pay most of salary will go to repaying study loan
-So dear anno & Jameel & Conjecture: whatever u are paying for world class expertise in SA dr's & specialists you are getting a big bargain- I dare you to put that much effort in any occupation/vocation/calling....

MLS@Jameel 7/3/2009 1:19:11 PM
So people such as doctors and teachers who choose to serve humanity must also consider themselves to be charitable institutions? After working hard at school to qualify for university, spending long years studying for their degrees and in community service, accumulating massive student loans which must be repaid, etc. they must provide their services under horrendous conditions for virtually nothing because of their 'love for humanity'? If you believe that then you are nothing better than a parasite! I fully support the doctors in their strike. Doctors in the public sector deserve better treatment.

Virgin queen 7/3/2009 1:22:48 PM
I agree with you totally, however i cant help but wonder whether docs are not being unreasonable. I am not against you asking for the increment but the speedy rate at which you require a 50% increment at once. I think you should have accepted the second offer subject to a review to your initial one in a period of six months,giving the government time to acquire funds in this regard. Your sector is not the ony one that is underpaid and if government submit to your request, the teachers are going to start striking and dont forget the public servants. I guess my point is,attaining any profession is something that people worked hard for and most professions entail a contributing factor as far as the country's socio-economic responsibilities, we should rather have a sense of balance among the sectors. I do get your point though, you really are underpaid.

MarkH 7/3/2009 1:30:25 PM
Doc, I'm with you all the way. Unfortunately the majority of voters in this country believe that security guards, MP's and our current prez are indespensible. That should tell you where you - and we - are heading. Get out now whilst you still can, you are a scarce & valuable resource with much to offer another country.

Ez @ Mfanafuthi 7/3/2009 1:36:59 PM
Get your facts about trainee accountants straight. I'm a first year trainee accountant and I earn 11K per month gross.

I 7/3/2009 3:02:24 PM
@everyone who goes on about the salaries: The strike isn't solely about that. If the working conditions were perfect, the money would probably not have been such an issue. But in SA salaries are a huge problem. Everything is just getting more expensive and salaries never keep up with it. I have a Masters degree in Biochemistry (6 years of study) plus 4 years work experience doing important work such as vaccine development and cancer research - I only take home R11 400 per month. I started working for R5500 per month. I am also highly educated, so stop blaming the doctors - it is SA's fault. Salaries not in-line with inflation etc.

cindy 7/3/2009 3:32:13 PM
am i the only one wondering why this is such an issue? salaries in the public sector has ALWAYS been an issue. people go into medicine thinking they're going to become rich overnight. well sorry, that's not the way it works.. if you want more money, leave the public sector/go overseas/find a decent paid job! i've seen the attitude at the state hospitals, no one could be bothered, half of them give you attitude when you insist they should wear gloves when touching your kids, which is why i pay a fortune for medical aid so i don't have to use public facilities.

Chrissy D 7/3/2009 3:54:30 PM
Dear Medical Intern,

I have empathy for your situation and firmly agree with you that the salaries of doctors should be on par with all our other qualified (educated) colleagues in this country.
However your strike should not be at the expense(meaning risk) of your patients. It would be admirable of all doctors if critical and really sick people get seen too regardless of your vises with the government. I also know that no matter how you approach the situation someone will always find a problem with it. For what it is worth, I hope that all doctors get paid what they deserve.

Keep the docs 7/3/2009 4:06:34 PM
It is important for govt to keep such a valuable resource as drs as they are a sought after scarce skill resource in most countries in the world. Especially now that it is clear that medicine will be " nationalised" in the near future here by means of national health insurance. Most junior graduates/ trainees do not earn well, and accordingly, junior docs won't either. Certainly, it becomes important to look after one's senior staff very well in this specific type of work environment ( national health). Else, SA will increasingly rely on other countries to supply drs - like cuba. Those drs are on loan and is not a sustainable way of practising health care. Since every worker in this country will contribute significantly to health costs, then it is imperative to ensure that we get the best our money can buy. To give experienced doctors - not juniors/trainees- a substantial increase, is the obvious way of keeping people in the system. Doctors earn high salaries in most countries in the world - google will tell you what they earn. They are not going to accept peanuts here - hence the strike/ drs emigrating. Do we want them or not, that, simply put, is the question.

Maxi 7/4/2009 11:35:44 AM
Show me which of the ANY J.Z wives doing any good 4 this Country?. Then again any Muntu Presidential Wife? in AFRICA!!!!!!.......

Linda Yates 7/4/2009 12:37:44 PM
Hi Mr/Miss/Mrs Intern I agree you need more money and I sympathise with your terrible and stressful working conditions that endanger patients' lives every day - with or without striking doctors. Health has been horribly mismanaged and I also feel for patients who have to contend with broken toilets, long queues and so on. PLEASE TELL US HOW MUCH IT COST YOU TO GET YOUR MEDICAL DEGREE. WHAT DO YOU PAY THE BANK BACK EVERY MONTH IF YOU HAD TO GET LOANS? PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THIS.

Nicole 7/5/2009 9:11:11 AM
I am a student studying in the health profession and I have been to many hospitals over my 5 year degree.
During the worst days of the strikes I was in a hospital which was reported to be striking and I watched as a doctor revived a child, got the child stable and into a ward.
I have seen doctors and other medical staff such as myself work wonders with absolutly nothing. No resourses and hundreds of patients and nursing staff always on "tea".
I have seen doctors running to blood labs because no porters are avalible to do so.

My degree has cost me roughly R200 000 and doctors degrees are even more. Doctors are looking at tution fee of about R250 000. That excludes textbooks (about R5000 - R10 000) per year, petrol and living expences (R40 000) and equipment like lab coats, dissection kits and what ever else. It is very expensive to get the degree in the first place. So an interns R8000 does not go far if you have a loan that big.

For all critics out there, please go sit in a trauma room for a day, see what medical staff see on a daily basis. Feel what it feels like to loose someone because you did not have working basis equipment. See what a thankless job it is to see hundreds of patients a day, knowing that you can do better. We all take the oath with the best intentions in the world. We all take the oath because of our love for people and the desire to care for them. If we did not have that, we would not be up at 4 in the morning 3 nights a week to pass an exam.

So take that into consideration when saying that the doctors are asking for such a big pay increase. Consider the conditions that they work in. And then join that to not being paid the equivalent of other professions who sit in a comfy office with aircon.

Jim 7/5/2009 1:50:03 PM
All doctors should emmigrate to CIVILIZED countries where their skills are appreciated. Leave Africa...because bufoons like samsam prefers his sangoma's cow-dug, muti, beetroot and garlic. So give samsam what he wants......Stone Age quaksalvery...because then he can be truly African!

Mmmm 7/5/2009 5:49:41 PM
@ Intern - leave,cause things ain't getting better in SA. Go where you are wanted and needed.

Maybe someone should write an article on what pre 94 state hospitals were like to post 94 and would be good to hear some comments from interns/dr's etc then....
People get what they voted for and this unfortunatley is part and parcel of that.

Trish P 7/5/2009 9:34:22 PM
You are in an accident, you land up at a public hospital, would you like a harried, overworked, underpaid doctor to look after you OR would you like a doctor that has top facilities, happy staff and is happy themselves to see to you? I know what I want and that is why I pay for a medical aid and go to a private doctor. I do not doubt that the doctors at public hospitals have the skills to look after me, but they are expected to work under extremely bad situations and yet they still give their all. Show a bit of respect!!

lsu 7/5/2009 9:37:06 PM
Doctors should be paid more - I studied accounting (4yrs honours) and my study loan is killing me. Doctors work longer hours, have more responsibility and are smarter. The majority of people are not smart nor tax payers. Why should the majority have so much say in a doctor's salary? Let doctors determine what they want to work for. How much do you value your life? What is your life insurance payout? The contributions of doctors to the economy is unquantifiable.

Medical Intern 7/5/2009 9:38:38 PM
To all the readers who have commented: thank you for your comments. A few points of clarity: 1) Numbers. Interns earn a basic salary of R9750/month. Overtime adds about R5000 to that, but please remember that this is for after hours duties NOT performed by other public servants. I will reiterate that I feel that is is acceptable for a junior to be paid less - this is similar in public sector law and accounting. However, senior doctors are NOT paid in line with senior accountants and lawyers working for the state. A specialist will take home little more than half the salary of a lawyer in the public sector - this is where my dispute lies. 2) Are we in this for the money? No. Interns are required to complete 2 years of internship and 1 year of community service - ie they are involuntary state employees for 3 years. BUT the medical officers and specialists who work in the state have CHOSEN this because they believe in serving people. However, this passion that they have for serving their communities can only take them so far. I will repeat that doctors are NOT asking for exorbitant salaries, they are merely asking for fair increases. Doctors in the state work there because they wish to contribute to this country. The strike was not just about doctors being grossly underpaid, it was a statement about the dire working conditions in which most doctors find themselves. The OSD may have been the background for this strike, but this action came to take on a much greater meaning - this was a statement by doctors that we can no longer tolerate the accelerated demise of the health care system. 3) The ethics of strike action: I agree that industrial action should not put patients at risk. At least in the Western Cape, we ensured that emergency services continued to run and that inpatients were cared for - our strike action was conducted professionally and ethically. Thank you to all those readers who expressed their support for public sector doctors.

lsu 7/5/2009 9:43:45 PM
I am an accountant - I have worked +100 overtime hours in 28 days before. I was sick, had no concentration and really I don't think +40 hrs is worth it all. My attitude was "so what" after 100 hrs. Doctors must feel much worst, imagine there is no motivation driving them after a few months. Do you want to be treated by someone who is too tired to live - who goes home and worries about money?

Craig 7/6/2009 8:15:58 AM
I am 100% behind behind the industrial action of the doctors of this country. I think it's just crazy that these guys get so little compensation after so much training in a field that literally saves lives. Without them and the people that teach them society is in deep trouble. It's a strange world we live in when a soccer player is worth over a billion Rand and teenager that can sing and dance makes more money in a week than my father made in his whole life, while somebody who has had to work extremely hard at and has had to sacrifice so much for over half a decade is worth less than a bus driver.

Society as a whole needs to re-evaluate priorities. The teachers, doctors and nurses are some of the most important cogs in the wheel, yet they are valued the least.

Gee 7/6/2009 4:10:26 PM
Its a shame that our doctors have been reduced to the lowest level of striking to be heard. To me that just signals the worst scenario ever. And to all those who are saying these people should live and go to greener pastures or start a private practice........hmmm thats so like not constructive input at all.

I do have medical aid but i feel sorry for all those out there who rely on the puplic health system. I dont know each and everyone's story but whatever it is noone deserves to be treated in a hospital without equipment or doctors even if they are poor. Surely human nature should sympathise with this scenario instead of painting them with one brush. So many people have lost their jobs in this recession how many can still afford to pay for medical aid?. Others have been orphaned or disabled in car accidents and cannit work anymore.These are the people who depend on public health and they deserve the best from the state. I strongly feel the doctors are justified and fighting for their cause and by extension for a better health delivery system for those less fortunate than us whatever their circumstances

ExpatZN 7/8/2009 6:41:58 AM
The Doctors in SA are brilliant at their job. I am an Expat here in Qatar and i can honestly say that the Government doctors are worth every cent. The problem is that Government positions pays far lower salaries than the private sector. This is known to everyone. The question is which positions in Government deserves high salaries and who is the judge of that!

sosha 7/8/2009 2:25:53 PM
it is so sad to that some of us(public) were not aware of horror that our doctors goes through. as a woman i feel for those ladies who are married and have kids and still work over 60hrs per week on top of that you dont have the salary that goes with the hard labour.

riyaaz ismail 7/10/2009 4:13:18 PM
if our beloved country does not remunerate our medics properly,then we are continuing to create doctors for the export market,at great loss(financial,social,national pride)to ur country.
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