Andy V.S Charlesdumbass
I have read the articles that Andy has posted and I have read some of Charles dumbwinns Comebacks and I have realized that both of them are wrong, and I would like to put my point of view up for discussion, you see in my point of view Charles has a religious view of Christianity I don’t subscribe to and is a run of the mill bigot and Andy is a Gay Atheist, Now I will place myself into the picture I am a GAY CHRISTIAN so now I will put down a case for gay Christians
Firstly I would like you to consider some off the following, For years, many documents have described the mistranslation of the Bible into English from the original Hebrew and Koine (ancient Greek) New-Testament writings. Issues of incorrect translation concern many areas, such as: the word "virgin" (Isaiah 7:14); the name "Yahweh" (YHWH); descriptions of angels; the term "Sons of God"; and incorrectly translating forbidden sexual practices.
There are several passages often mistranslated as forbidding homosexual activity; however, those Bible passages can be correctly translated by considering many aspects of the Bible, as a whole: literal translation, rarity, priorities, sanity-test and reality-test.
Literal Translation- . In the New Testament, the two verses 1 Corinthians 6:9 & 1 Timothy 1:10 are often mistranslated as condemning homosexuality in English Bibles (but not in the Roman Latin Vulgate Bible or the 1545 German Bible of Martin Luther). Mistranslation is based on two ancient Greek words "malakoi" & "arsenokoitai" (Greek letters "ARSENOKOITAI " literally, "male-beds"), which was a new word used by Paul (Saul) at the time and not a common term for homo-sexuality. Because Paul was speaking in a religious context, the word "arsenokoitai" has been translated as referring to male-pimps or customers in temple prostitution, a common practice in so-called pagan rituals widespread in Temple Cult worship of the time. [The minor term "malakoi" (used to describe "soft" clothing) is non-sexual and has been translated as "effeminate" (KJV), although others state "weaklings" or "morally weak, lazy" men.]
Rarity of Words- . The ancient Greek word "arsenokoitai" occurs in only those 2 verses, 1 Corinthians 6:9 & 1 Timothy 1:10. Logically, if homosexuality were considered a sin, there should be many verses about it, and the word "arsenokoitai" would occur more than twice if it had referred to a major issue, such as homosexuality; the rarity of the word fits the logical translation: the word "arsenokoitai" refers to the rare practice of temple prostitution, not general homosexuality. (See: 73 references to arsenokoit* found in TLG E Feb/2000, ) Yet, precisely because the word is so rare and had no formal definition, the word "arsenokoitai" is crucial in fostering misinterpretation of the Bible: a more common word could not be so easily redefined.
Priorities - . The verses in the Bible follow certain priorities: for example, the words "adultery" or "adulteress/adulterer" (Greek "moixoi" ) occur 47 times in the King James Version; however, the word "arsenokoitai" occurs only 2 times, and the common terms of that time period about homosexual activity are not mentioned in the Bible at all (such as man-boy pairing, Greek "erastes-eromenos"). Condemning homosexuality in Biblical times was not an issue, not a priority, at all.
A Sanity- Test - . Since adultery & adulterer are mentioned 47 times in the King James Version, it could be expected that a sin would be mentioned many times in the Bible: the condemnation of lying/liars occurs over 70 times ("liar" 21 times, "false witness" 19, "lying" lips/tongues 31 times); murder is prohibited 35+ times ("murderer" 20 etc.); and stealing is condemned 73+ times ("steal" 23 times, "thief/robber" 50+, except stealing for food: Proverbs 6:30 "Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry." [KJV]). However, the common terms (used in those days) to describe homosexual activity are not even mentioned. It doesn't make sense to translate a few rare words & phrases as condemning homosexuality, when specific sins are mentioned many times in the Bible--it simply doesn't pass a sanity-test.
A Reality- Test - . During the time period of 1 Corinthians 6:9 & 1 Timothy^ 1:10,:the word "arsenokoitai" occurred in only a few religious writings, such as a later text describing Adam deceived to have sex with serpent-god Naas. The erotic literature of the period never used the word "arsenokoitai" but used other ancient Greek terms ("erastes-eromenos": man-boy pairing) to describe homosexual practices, and those Greek terms were never mentioned in the Greek texts of the Bible. To try to re-interpret & translate other Bible verses into condemning those specific (unnamed) acts is just not realistic--it doesn't pass a reality-test ("reality_check"). The translation of the ancient Greek New Testament must fit the language & cultures of the time period. The translation must match the reality of that era.
Old-Testament Literal Translation - . The infamous verse Leviticus 20:13, often used to condemn homosexuality, is about a married-man with another male, in the "marriage-bed" as with his wife. See the Latinized Greek for Leviticus 20:13 below:
Kai hos an koimEthE meta arsenos koitEn
gunaikos, bdelugma epoiEsan amphoteroi;
thanatousthwsan, enoichoi eisin." [Lev 20:13 in Greek Septuagint LXX].
The translation of the Greek term 'gunaikos' is interpreted to mean: wife. Hence, the verse actually forbids male-male adultery, pertaining only to a married man.
Similarly, for Leviticus 18:22, the wording of the original Hebrew is very different from the KJV form:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind:
it is abomination." [Leviticus 18:22, King James Version]
However, the original Hebrew for Leviticus 18:22 reveals a different 3rd meaning:
We-et-zakar lo' tishkav mishkevey 'ishshah" [Lev 18:22 Hebrew, Latinized]
("And-with a-male NOT lie-down in beds-of a-woman") [Lev 18:22 literal translation]
So, the Hebrew Leviticus 18:22 mentions: someone + a male + a woman; hence, a forbidden 3-way.
Those 2 infamous Leviticus verses actually mention other women or wives, rather than male-male relationships, as is often the misinterpretation & mistranslation.
When many aspects of Biblical issues are considered, there is no textual basis for misinterpreting & mistranslating Bible verses to condemn homosexuality: the original Hebrew & Greek texts of the Bible do not condemn homosexuality at all, and so, homosexuality should not be considered a sin by today's society.
Finally, the question arises: In 1611, did the Bible translators/scribes for King James purposely mistranslate Bible verses into English because they had intensely resented King James, with his open homosexuality & various male lovers? The answer might never be known.
In the new book: A Gathering of Angels by Larry Dean.Hamilton, several incidents of God's approval are described in detail, including several spiritual events similar to visions. Note: That book is a true story, not a hypothetical religious sermon, but rather an accurate description of some astounding ways in which God actually works His plan. In:A Gathering of Angels, the author describes many real-life events in vivid detail as they happened, so there was too little room for ideology, and that book contains very few Bible quotations. The book is, in essence, a detailed secret revelation of divine approval for same-sex love.
A Gathering of Angels (by Larry Dean.Hamilton) describes actual spiritual events in modern times, and those incidents match the teachings from the original texts of the Bible, before the King James.Version mistranslated some verses to condemn homosexuality.
Addendum - . Many of the English-language Bibles have been mistranslated to condemn homosexuality, not only the 1611 King James Version. Below is a list of several English Bibles along with the phrase that translates the ancient Greek word "arsenokoitai" (1 Corinthians 6:9), which many scholars now believe means "male-pimps" or "molesters." Note the year of each Bible & its translation of "arsenokoitai":
- King_James_Version (KJV 1611) "abusers of themselves with mankind"
- Wycliffe_New_Testament (WYC 2001) "they that do lechery with men"
- American_Standard_Version (ASV 1901) "abusers of themselves with men"
- New_Life (NLV1969) "people who do sex sins with their own sex"
- 21st_Century_KJV (KJ21 1994) "abusers of themselves with mankind"
- New_American_Standard (NASB 1995) "nor effeminate, nor homosexuals"
- New_International_Version (NIV 1984) "homosexual offenders"
- Amplified_Bible (1987) "nor those who participate in homosexuality"
- Darby_Translation (public domain) "nor who abuse themselves with men"
- Young's_Literal_Translation "nor effeminate, nor sodomites"
- New_Living_Translation (NLT^ 1996) "male prostitutes, homosexuals"
- Contemporary_English_Version (1995) "behaves like a homosexual"
· Holman_Christian_Standard (HCSB 2003) "male prostitutes, homosexuals"
Whereas the original Greek text of 1 Corinthians 6:9 apparently condemns cult male-pimps and child-molesters, it has been perverted in many English Bibles to condemn all homosexual behavior.
Similarly, Deuteronomy 23:17 is often mistranslated, about the prohibition against ritual temple cult/shrine prostitution, specifically by either the "daughters" or "sons" of Irsael, by mistranslating the Hebrew word "qadesh" to be "sodomite" or "pervert" etc. For instance in the Amplified Bible, the verse of Deuteronomy 23:17 reads:
"There shall be no cult prostitute among the daughters of Israel, neither
shall there be a cult prostitute (a sodomite) among the sons of Israel." [Deut 23:17]
The Hebrew text contains no word for "sodomite" but uses the male & female forms of the same word "qadesh" ("holy one") referring to either a male or a female holy sex-slave in the shrine ritual.
Proper translation of Bible texts requires cultural knowledge of the time period, including pagan temple/shrine rituals of cult prostitution & also knowledge of same-sex relationships during the period.”
Now I would like to carry on if you like with some more of these discussions, and will try my best to answer any questions you atheists and nut jobs like charley boy has, if you are willing to look at the facts that I have put forth
My source for my information can be found at-forums.canadiancontent.net/christian-discussion/84710-homosexuality-not-sin.html
You to me it is very possible to be a GAY CHRISTIAN you don't have to be a atheist.or a closeted bigot.