| |
|
|
| |
TRUE
11/04/2008 14:50
Agreed lets elect Susan Shabangu president. - ICEMAN |
|
 |
| |
Just shoot to kill-But you will get arrested..
11/04/2008 14:56
Shoot to kill..I agree..If any criminal dares to come close to Bokkie, I will shoot to kill :).. - Kolobe |
|
|
| |
I couldnt agree with you more
11/04/2008 14:56
Why - Tazzy |
|
|
| |
Not that I disagree, but...
11/04/2008 14:58
The average joe bloggs on the street is not able to cope with the responsibility of a "shoot to kill" instruction. I too am tired of the crime and think desparate measures are called for, but in the UK after the 7/7 bombings, a "shoot to kill" order was given and some poor Brazilian oke got flattened. It is a VERY broad sword. I don't object, but then we can't whine when someone innocent dies... - Sarah |
|
|
| |
100%
11/04/2008 14:59
Good point. Good article. I agree 100%. The reaction and misinterpretation and twisting of meaning has been laughable. Shoot the bastards. - Nick |
|
|
| |
ABSOLUTELY 100%
11/04/2008 14:59
Amazing how everyone bitche$ about crime all the time. And when someone in power eventauly speaks on our (the citizens) behalf they get slaughtered. The DA is just opposing this as usual to have their logo in the newspaper. It's time the cops get the power returned to them. Although, what they did in Stellenbosch makes you think twice. - CJ |
|
|
| |
Viva Shabangu Viva
11/04/2008 15:00
I agree 100%.
These clowns opposed to the Death Penalty have quite obviously never been victims of the "Government Subsidised Terrorism" that is ruining this country.The Crime is very quickly taking over the country and nothing is being done to stop it.If I commit a murder and get caught , which is highly unlikely , I get a roof over my head and food for the rest of my life.This is my kind of country. - Nutballs |
|
|
| |
1000% Correct Wernardt
11/04/2008 15:00
Another tip: First kill the robber, THEN fire the warning shot. It's virtually impossible to prove which was fired first! - Juan |
|
|
| |
You have a right to do anything...
11/04/2008 15:01
You have a right to do anything. You have a right to shoot and kill the criminal, you would also have a right to the attorney, then have a right to access to a free bed in jail, a right to television and three meals a day, that is what your bill of rights stipulates?amend the constitution first otherwise any statement that contravenes the law goes into my dictionary as a useless populist statement.. - Kolobe |
|
|
| |
oops
11/04/2008 15:01
why should we think twice, once they are in your house with the intent on harming you they do not hesitate...The Minister was spot on. We need more Ministers who are much more awake to the reality and sees things they way we see them NOT on denials... WAY TO GO SHABANGU - Tazzy |
|
|
| |
Well Said
11/04/2008 15:02
Well said, I couldn't agree more, as much as I hate cops, I do believe we can give them some credit and expect them to use their judgement. - Chris |
|
|
| |
Jeppestown massacre
11/04/2008 15:03
Police officers were brutally killed in a hail of bullets in the famous Jeppestown massacre a few years ago. They pounced on heavily armed criminals and just opened fire. To prevent the same type of careless police deaths, our police force needs to be strategic when dealing with armed criminals. Shoot to kill will not simply end crime, but tight law enforcement and strict courts will do, that's where criminals escape after all, weak law enforcement and poor performance by our courts. - Sello |
|
|
| |
Intent
11/04/2008 15:05
My feelings exactly,Wernardt. Except I won't wait until they are in my house....if they've climbed the wall into my property, they have shown intent, and deserve to be gunned down there and then...before they get near my family!! My only concern is the lack of integrity and weapon skills shown by a lot of cops. - Andy |
|
|
| |
deep dark africa
11/04/2008 15:06
according to you deserve gun toting cops... - scorpion |
|
|
| |
Well Done
11/04/2008 15:08
This has been way over due,finally someone that is standing up.
You have my full support...Mr.B - Mr.B |
|
|
| |
"Shoot to Kill"
11/04/2008 15:08
Hear, hear! I agree 1000%, shoot the bliksems dead! - Jack |
|
|
| |
Agreed.
11/04/2008 15:09
Totaly agree with you Wernardt. Why does liberalism and human rights always seem to replace common sense in stead of work hand in hand with it. You need strong rules and stronger repercussions. The choice always starts with the offender and they must bear the responsibility for the outcome of their actions. - AJ |
|
|
| |
Shoot to kill makes sense
11/04/2008 15:10
I completely agree with you. Well said. - Susan |
|
|
| |
Agreed
11/04/2008 15:11
Absolutely! Why does liberalism and human rights seem to replace common sense rather than partner it. We require strong laws and stronger repercussions. The choice always lies in the hands of the offender whi must then take responsibilty for the outcome of their actions. - AJ |
|
|
| |
Totally agreed on this one!!
11/04/2008 15:12
there is a head line saying that they are starting a petition in support of what was said - does this go through to any one of importance?
Nothing is being done to stop crime, I can't even suggest another route to take but shoot to kill!! - Ims |
|
|
| |
hell yeah, kill the bastards
11/04/2008 15:15
its annoying how people always take things out of context and have a big hoola baloo over the matter. just because someone joins the police force does not mean that they give up their right to live automatically. these are people's children, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, mothers or fathers. now who would want to sacrifice a member of their family for "the greater good" ??????? - kiddo |
|
|
| |
Shame on the DA and HRC
11/04/2008 15:17
I listened to her speech and am of the opinion that what she said was not inflammatory or incitefull. She is effectively sending out a message to the criminals that enough is enough. Good for her, she has restored some of my hope for this country. The DA should think before they knee jerk a reaction in the hope of scoring cheap points. The HRC should remember that criminals are not more human then the rest of us. - Doorboot |
|
|
| |
Shoot to kill
11/04/2008 15:18
It just seems that the Human Rights Commission always have the interest of the criminal at heart. We are all dumb struck at the recent spate of violent crime, and violence seems to be the only language criminals understand. The deputy minister deserves some support for a very gutsy comment. - abel |
|
|
| |
SA not ready for that.
11/04/2008 15:19
SA is not ready for the shoot to kill nonsense. Shabangu is out of line you idiot. - Afriman |
|
|
| |
I agree 100%
11/04/2008 15:22
Only a fool will differ.
BR - BR |
|
|
| |
war
11/04/2008 15:22
You all know the old adage: " Dead men tell no lies".
Bombs away. - The fisherman |
|
|
| |
hell yeah kill the bastards
11/04/2008 15:25
i sense dome change in this country for the better, killing the bastards is a start but more must be done in term of catching the corrupt bastards in government as well. Viva viva you bastards come in my house now without my permission you will catch a bullet bastards - terence |
|
|
| |
Has my vote...
11/04/2008 15:25
should it ever go to a referendum. :-) I can't understand the DA reasoning though, one the one hand they claim, and rightly so, that crime is out of hand and then on the other they call for Susan Shabangu's head. - John Camp |
|
|
| |
Well done to the minister
11/04/2008 15:29
Great I love her Attitude , Better than Charles's. And agree fully with your views ,SAPS should be more heavily armed trained and given more right after all the risking their lives everyday, Crimninals in SA wont think a split second to should and kil any one. Crime is our biggest problem. Viva Shabangu viva. - bongani |
|
|
| |
Viva Shabangu viva.
11/04/2008 15:30
I agree with her and you , in the states if the cops pull over s suspect and he's hands are not on the steering wheel , They have the full right to shoot to kill. We need the same attitude ,SA criminals are always armed always !!! - charlie |
|
|
| |
come on DA, concentrate!!!
11/04/2008 15:31
And once again, the DA was very quick to condemn the minister's statements. If they just listened properly, they might not have reacted so harsh in response to the minister's comments. The constitution allows a person to defend his property, his life or the lives others by using the necessary force. Any gun wielding criminal is aware of the fact that he is perceived to be a danger to society, and therefore society should defend itself against gun wielding criminals, by shooting killing them. - witseun |
|
|
| |
Massage from God
11/04/2008 15:34
At last god send her child to save many life's in south africa.
An eye for an eye will work out here. how can you smile to the criminal,while he is not smiling at you. shoot to kill.
she must kick Zuma away and become our next president.
what the use of the guns. - Tivani |
|
|
| |
Sello
11/04/2008 15:36
Sello, the Jeppestown massacre was not as a result of "shoot to kill". The tactical method was flawed. You do not go storming in to a defensive position when a bunch of wackos are sitting waiting with guns poised. You demand that they surrender, and if they don't, you toss in stun grenades, followed by real grenades, followed by a tactical strike when they are stunned. 4/5 cops running into a room which is covered by machine gun fire, is STUPID. Nothing to do with "shoot to kill". - Wernardt |
|
|
| |
Finally, some sense
11/04/2008 15:36
Nicely written, Wernardt, and nicely said, Ms. Sabangu! At least there is one MP that is willing to say what most of us think. Criminals use a "broad sword" whenever they feel inclined. Why should any of them be treated with kid's gloves? And please don't whine about poverty and being forced into a life of crime - as with anything else, it's a choice. Miss Sabangu has chosen - I'm right next to her. - Dion Oosthuizen |
|
|
| |
Nonsense I say
11/04/2008 15:37
I couldn't agree with you less! - bokkie |
|
|
| |
Have we again become angry vengeful barbarians?
11/04/2008 15:39
We have become more civilised as people, we should prove that we are beyong these criminals who act far less human. We should not stoop so low and be no different from them. We should ensure that there's enough policing, well equiped force, well trained and well paid. We should enforce the laws that we have by ensuring that the justice criminal system works. Shoot to Kill is very dangerous and not supported. - Libembe |
|
|
| |
criminals
11/04/2008 15:40
Criminals don't have to fire warning shots. I say take this statement with a pinch of salt. If the guy is no threat, fine. But if he's waving a gun, and/or clearly means to do you harm, then take the bastard out. Why do you think the cops in the UK now have to shout "Armed police!" (emphasis on "Armed") when they go in to apprehend someone? - Anymouse |
|
|
| |
Feeling lucky....punk
11/04/2008 15:40
Couldn't agree more. If you shoot them and they live, they makeup some BS story and you'll be living a legal nightmare. You won't (I still don't) believe some of the stories these criminals make up and get off on. Like the saying goes, the truth is in the eye of the beholder. Make sure there is only one side to the story. - Smith&Wesson |
|
|
| |
Gun toting cops
11/04/2008 15:41
I understand your point about cops being incompetent/poorly trained in some cases. They had guns before "shoot to kill" orders, and they will have guns after, it makes no difference. All I'm saying is cops trying to ask armed robbers nicely to surrender should shoot instead of talk, and citizens being accosted in their homes should not fear retribution when they shoot to kill, as is currently the case with self-defence cases turning into murder cases against the law abiding citizens. - Wernardt |
|
|
| |
About time!
11/04/2008 15:42
Kudos to Susan Shabangu! About time a MD stood up and spoke on behalf of the majority. - kris |
|
|
| |
DOUBLE STANDARDS - DA
11/04/2008 15:42
Voted the best statement of the year " Kill the Bastards " just a pity that a political Party like the DA critizizes this, This is one time i expected them to think like there voters - Do something about crime - anything, I personaly think they could have rather came out and suported this statement by saying lets look at ways and means to legaly protect the SA Community even if it means applying greater force to get the job done. No DA No..JP. - JP |
|
|
| |
big NO....NO.....NO
11/04/2008 15:44
police are there to maintain law and order...to bring suspects to court and use reasonable force necessary to arrest those resisiting only.the courts then pronounce on the gulit or otherwise of the suspects.why then do we have courts if the police can udge by "killing" the suspects.Shabangu is out of order and desrve to be fired for her remarks finish and klaar.this is a perfect example of how the gvt is failing to deal with crime...nonsensical utterances by high profile individuals...! - given |
|
|
| |
Ten out of ten
11/04/2008 15:47
I agree completely Wernhardt. People in SA seem to have a knack for taking things out of context just to sensationalise them. It's time someone stood up to be counted in the fight against crime. Nothing wrong with what she said. - Tracey |
|
|
| |
Viva Shabangu
11/04/2008 15:51
I agree 100% with the comments made by Shabangu. I used to be an ANC supporter in the past but never again will the ANC get my vote. In this democracy of ours the criminals have more rights than us law abiding citizens and on top of this the ANC pushes through ridiculous gun laws that makes it so difficult and expensive for law abiding citizens to legally arm themselves to protect us from these criminals. Let us show the ANC in next years election that ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.... - Gatvol |
|
|
| |
Shoot em down!!
11/04/2008 15:51
There'll be nothing diplomatic about coming face to face with a gun/knife wielding criminal in the passage of ya house @ midnight,I guess thats one of the million reasons why you should make his day with 1 slug in the balaclaved head or else you'll be the one ending with flower bringing & the slow singin.Shoot em dowm then play by the constitution later! - Les-Maada |
|
|
| |
Shoot to Kill - 100%
11/04/2008 15:51
Agree completely. And further to what charlie said, first make the terms very publicly and clearly known, eg. hands not on the steering wheel, not dropping a weapon when ordered so by the police, unauthorised entry to a private property etc., and then perpetrators must accept the consequences. This is the only certain solution to our crime. However, corrupt officials do cause concern here. - ramone |
|
|
| |
We hope it decrease crime
11/04/2008 15:51
At the end of the day we hope that the Shoot to Kill method will not aggreviate the criminals themselves.this method will either intensify the anger in criminals or maybe reduce crime,we would hope for the latter.all what we are saying is that they wont shoot to kill themselves..as they say the one that draws out his gun first he becomes King.. - Kolobe |
|
|
| |
Judge Dredd
11/04/2008 15:53
Anybody seen the movie or read the comic? That is how criminals should be dealt with - on the merit of the crime, on the spot, and with lethal force if necessary. Go, Ms. Shabangu, go! - Dion Oosthuizen |
|
|
| |
Ofcourse !
11/04/2008 15:58
Given our violent society shoot to kill may not stop crime but at least it will make some of the criminals think twice. The govt also needs to train police better and to ensure that when the cops do catch a criminal they dont get away lightly. What is the alternate? the cops to give flowers and a card first to the criminals shooting at them and at innocent civilians? - Only_Me |
|
|
| |
Shoot To Kill
11/04/2008 15:58
Just as you would not resonably expect an intruder in your house to feed the cat and leave, a reasonable person (or police officer) will not shoot anyone unless there is a real or percieved threat to safety. If a criminal is a threat - shoot the bastard. Irresponsible action will be dealt with by the courts. Give the cops back their self respect and authority - Viva Susan - Andr?i> |
|
|
| |
shoot
11/04/2008 16:00
as far as understand Wernardt,sounds like the will be more guns in-house and out-door.If a man strangles his wife to death how can an ordinary woman protects herself?How about those killing there own family?No man its going to be something thats going to happen like out countries like iraq were poepl use self bomb to kill many people>Isn`t or wont a Minister change her subject and put it in other way round may be it will be understandable.
- tip-to-to-oe |
|
|
| |
Libembe,
11/04/2008 16:00
Criminals who rape a woman in front of of her family, or pour boiling water over their victim, are NOT civilized. In fact, I do not think they are human at all. Shoot to KILL is the answer! - hjs |
|
|
| |
Don't Jump The Gun ;)
11/04/2008 16:01
A lot of responses seem up in arms that it is wrong to simply shoot criminals. Whoa there, this entire debacle was sparked because of the indecision from cops to defend their lives when being directly threatened, either with firearms, weapons or other potentially lethal items. Everyone is in favor of cops being able to wield their firearms to protect their own lives, as am I. As I said before, what good is a dead cop? - TaurusaurusRex |
|
|
| |
First educate yourselves before shooting
11/04/2008 16:03
I agree with the Minister BUT do not overstep the bounderies of selfdefence.Before you pull that trigger you must consider the 3 elements of self defense:1.Was the attack immenent and a danger to your or someone elses life 2.Was the attack directed directly towards you or another (you can't shoot someone in the back)3.Was there any other way that you could have stopped the attack i.o.w level of force equels level of threat.The PC wording is to shoot to incapacitate.If the perp dies then be it. - Bennet Massyn |
|
|
| |
Misinterpretation?
11/04/2008 16:05
Sadly this could be taken either way. But one can't argue that when under fire, the police should certainly shoot back. I do fear that we may see a "trigger happy" culture. But what reasonable option is there left? How many times have we read of terrible murder, torture, rape... the list goes on. the solutions do not. - Robert |
|
|
| |
Hm...
11/04/2008 16:07
I agree with the sentiment of what she said, but it was still extremely reckless of her to do so officially. The problem is that the SAPS simply aren't capable of being responsible enough to judge when to utilize a "shoot to kill" order; given the drastic rise in police brutality over the last few months, you'll likely find a lot of very questionable murders occurring (people being gunned down for reaching into their pockets to pull cellphones that "might" be guns, for instance). - Nick |
|
|
| |
Shoot to kill
11/04/2008 16:07
For a moment I doudted my hearing ability, thanks for reaffirming my understanding of the ministers statement. Shoot to kill - Eksodus |
|
|
| |
YES
11/04/2008 16:08
LAST TIME I LOST MY FRIEND THROUGH GUN BATTLE IN JEPPES TOWN THEY SHOOT HIM ON THE HEAD AND HE WAS JUST PASSING BY UNAWARE THAT THERE THUGS WERE FIGHTING WITH THE COPS SO IT IS BETTER TO SAY YES TO WHAT DEPUTY MINISTER HAD SAID - modise |
|
|
| |
Logical Views, but.....
11/04/2008 16:11
Very good article, logically set out. And that is exactly the problem, because as we all know in SA right is wrong, wrong is right and logic is ridiculed. So don't expect any action to flow from anything that the Deputy Minister may have said. - Sardonic |
|
|
| |
Stellenbosch raids
11/04/2008 16:12
Are the police necessarily competent enough to be able to distinguish when deadly force is needed? Last I saw they were beating unarmed students up - which is not, in my book, exactly comforting when I imagine one toting a pistol and deciding that I'm threatening him (when I'm actually offering him a beer ;-) ). - Jan |
|
|
| |
Given you nana... and @ Kolobe, Sello and Libembe
11/04/2008 16:18
Surely if its kill or be killed you would allow old PC Plod to defend himself with a gun too? Or must he now hope he remembered his bullet-proof vest and try to arrest the man? There is no point arguing this. It IS in fact the law Kolobe, Sello and Libembe... She wasn't stating anything they didn't already know. Go ask at the local cop shop and they will tell you its the law. - May |
|
|
| |
Ready...aim...fire
11/04/2008 16:21
Just a tip - shoot them in the stomach and let them suffer first. - Charl |
|
|
| |
Shoot to kill
11/04/2008 16:24
Typical liberal reaction of people who never had to defend them selfs against criminals, who never had stood at a open grave. Who only try to protect their comfort zone.
I will kill with or without minister Shabangu's permission, but if she prove that she does not play lip service on this one, I will kill to protect her to. - Kobie |
|
|
| |
Shoot to kill
11/04/2008 16:25
I agree. They do not value human life so if they come close to me or my family I would not hesitate to pull the trigger. If the police aren't willing to take action then who will? - Shani |
|
|
| |
Poor Brazilian
11/04/2008 16:25
The Brazilian who got shot in London after 7/7 has nothing to do with this. That poor man was shot for looking like a criminal wearing a backpack similar to the ones the bombers wore. He did not threaten anyones life. That case is totally different to what we talking about. - Mojojo |
|
|
| |
Shoot to Kill.
11/04/2008 16:27
Politicians have been out of touch with the population for so long that a statement like this will only cause soiled underwear amongst them. Don't think for a minute that they have your best interests at heart. - frank |
|
|
| |
Be carefull
11/04/2008 16:28
The next time you reach into your pocket to take out the bribe money you could be shot on suspicion that you were reaching for a weapon - LILO |
|
|
| |
Clarity
11/04/2008 16:30
Thanks for providing some clarity on the matter to those who misinterpreted Shabangu's words. The message was clear and simple. But some people just had to make their own interpretation and now its a whole national debate. - SimpleSense |
|
|
| |
Shoot first
11/04/2008 16:33
Why can't the cops shoot first?
Surely if a criminal is holding a weapon while being chased by police that is already justification for the police to shoot, same thing when police are face to face with criminals, if the criminals don't drop their weapons the police should open fire.
The whole nanny nonesense about criminal rights sickens me, the original idea behind it is to protect innocent people who aren't criminals from being mistaken for criminals, however at what innocent victom cost? - Jono |
|
|
| |
A deputy minister talking sense...
11/04/2008 16:35
...but unfortunately in SA, the "law" protects the thugs, rapists, hijackers, murderers, arsonists: up to now, they have had the undisputed right to shoot first, and anyone acting in self-defence was made to pay. As Sardonic comments, in Mbeki's banana republic, right is wrong, the ANC govt. will always defend Mugabe and the thugs on the street. That's what the "new" SA is all about. I'd like to hear Jody Kollapen and Prof Blarney Piesang Pityana on this one! - Gysbert |
|
|
| |
Libembe
11/04/2008 16:37
I agree that the focus must also be on training and education and to make the justice system work. But in the short term, a justice system that sends people to a free hotel where they get released early on parole because the jails are over full, is not effective. In that case, I prefer cops who shoot to kill. Less of a burden on jails. We only hear of convictions, we never hear of it when the fat illiterate parole officers release murderers after 8-10 years behind bars. - Wernardt |
|
|
| |
MY property
11/04/2008 16:37
DARE set foot on it, and I WILL protect it. - Sinudeity |
|
|
| |
Still misinterpreted
11/04/2008 16:43
Several comments, including LILO's, seem to still not get my point. I am not saying police should be trigger happy (ie. OMG he's reaching for a gun in his pocket, shoot him). I repeat, the minister refers to situations where criminals are CLEARLY armed and/or have CLEAR lethal intent and even make that intent clear by pointing a fire arm or breaking and entering. Situations where armed robbers point guns/knives at or fire at police or citizens. Do not extend the statement beyond its reference. - Wernardt |
|
|
| |
If you want something done, do it your self!
11/04/2008 16:44
Crime became SO violent, they kill you now days for pocket change. So why should they have ANY rights. They have no value for life, and should be treated as such. I don't care what their circumstances are, you just dont take a lifem period! If you kill, you are not worthy to breathe among us! And at this point, the ""law"" give the killers more rights than what I have. If you shoot, aim between the eyes! - Dizz |
|
|
| |
I AGREE WITH SELLO
11/04/2008 16:45
Emotional responses to an issue that should be dealt with intellectually (caaaalm down..I know it's a touchy, sore topic for us all). Slow down, research the issue and realise that a call to indiscriminate arms will have far reaching repurcussions, the likes of which will set us back immeasurably. Instinct tells us to have a knee-jerk reaction to crime, but rational thinking is really called for. Consider the bigger picture, not just what will satisfy anger and frustation in the moment. - Lauren |
|
|
| |
unrepentant observer
11/04/2008 16:45
anyone who has sufferred the tradegy of a loved one's murder, hijacking or other violent attack cannot have any issue with the minister's comments. if this was put to a national vote or referendum i can guarentee that an almost unanimous majority would say the same thing. for too long have the people of this country had to deal with the boom in crime and the police are fighting an uphill battle against a lack of competent leadership, resources and training.
- unrepentant observer |
|
|
| |
Self Defence
11/04/2008 16:45
Just a pity the wimpy UK government does not have the same attitude. All law abiding citizens in all countries should be afforded the right to protect themselves.
Nkosi - John Dickson |
|
|
| |
For all u nay sayers...
11/04/2008 16:47
Wake up and look around you for goodness sake.. this is not a French nanny state we live in. More people die by crime in SA every year than a comprable Middle East war. Every murderer the police plug saves countless other innocent lives. Make no mistake, SA is in a war and it has even gotten to the point where a certain degree of collateral damage of potentially innocent bystanders, due to trigger happy police, is acceptable. - JB |
|
|
| |
Whooha!!!!
11/04/2008 16:59
Thank you, thank you, thank you and thanks some more. You said it like it is.
Hats of and praises all round! Seriously!
And yes, you'll have my support should you wish to run for president!!!! - Henri Slabbert |
|
|
| |
Shabangu 4 president!!!!!!!!!
11/04/2008 17:05
Let's cut the crap and face facts. Everyone is fed up about crime and the ineffective justice system that sees criminals walking the streets and continuing to terrorise us. At last, a minister with balls to deal with the bastards. People are emigrating to get away from this crime and the country loses valuable skills in the process. To hell with those that oppose the deputy minister's stance. Enough is enough!!!!Viva Susan Shabangu. You're the man. Ntokoza - Ntokozo |
|
|
| |
My Life
11/04/2008 17:09
I agree. No more mercy for criminals. - Theunis |
|
|
| |
Shoot to kill ... nice
11/04/2008 17:20
Shoot to kill...nice, but this is only a short term solution. I've work with criminals in the past and they will only get better equipt and trained. We have to look at the whole system...death penalty, strict jail sentences with NO privileges and so on. Lets strike back and win the WAR. - CvB |
|
|
| |
|
|
| This comments facility is now closed. |
