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Really!
22/07/2008 08:21
Where do you guys find these rose-tinted glasses? Do pro-ANC judges and highly-positioned ANC members influence govet and judiciary roles? If my life depended on the right answer, I would say yes. Doing their jobs is secondary to looking out for each other. - AJ |
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Dear Mtshepana Tembe
22/07/2008 08:26
"The Constitutional Court judges are not semi-gods but humans like all of us. They are not, and should not be immune from criticism from members of the public" That also applies to every ANC minister and official. They should stop calling everybody racists when criticised. - Vernon Koekemoer |
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Excuses show naivety
22/07/2008 08:29
Holding up Yengeni as an example is naive. If you think that SA bought 10's of billions of rands in arms and the only criminal act was 1 person getting a discount on a 4 by 4 vehicle, then your perspective is irrefutable flawed. - AJ |
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Mtshepana
22/07/2008 08:36
..well said,brother - you took the words right out of my mouth. I was actually drafting a letter to News24 expressing exactly the same opinion as you. Why do some sections of our society believe that judges are sacred cows that cannot be criticised? Judges are expected to maintain the highest standards of our society, but lately their collective actions have been shameful - VG |
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Fairy Tal
22/07/2008 08:38
What fairy tale book do you read when you state that the ANC functions separate to government. It is common knowledge that the ANC dictates to the current government what to do and who to appoint...........wake up - your coffee is cold! - True Blue SA |
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Technicalities
22/07/2008 08:38
It just baffles me that even though a person might be guilty, he/she would be let off on a technicality such as the complaint not being made through the proper channels ! If you're guilty, then thats it.. go to jail and forget about the minor stuff ! - nico |
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On the balls(oucch)
22/07/2008 08:45
Freedom of expression Mtshepana is the right of every organization and institution, the judges and the constitutional court like any other spheres of government should and must be criticized when an injustice is being perceived, so long as the criticism does not border any form of intimidation and hate speech, then I agree with you - Kolobe |
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Wake up and smell the coffee!!!
22/07/2008 08:49
The ANC lacks leadership, all they do is open their mouths without sending signals to their brains. The newly elected commitee just does not have what it takes to lead our Great and Beautiful country. This time around, come next year I am keeping my vote because quite frankly I dont think DA also has what it takes. - KLZ |
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THANK U
22/07/2008 08:49
the DA seems to be the moouth piece for the ever changing morden day racism, white judges for years now have let thier personal feeling and opinions influence cases brought forward to them even though there is enough evidence in hand, its a fact, never came forward because judges are semi gods in SA especialy white ones - morena |
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Incorrect perspective
22/07/2008 08:51
You state that "the sole intention [of the JSC's complaint was] to embarrass and vilify one of the most senior black judges.How do you know what their intentions were?Did it ever occur to you that Judge Hlope might also be human and not a semi-god?The Pillay Commission results were covered up by govt until a leak in the press a year later.If the govt will not come clean on corruption, then perhaps the JSC has no choice but to go public on something as serious as this. - DW |
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Mtshepana and VG
22/07/2008 08:51
Gents what HOGWASH is this,i am sick and tired by JZ supporters. people you have no insight you just like talking.HLOPHE needs to be sacked,JZ jailed for life,Malema removed and Mantashe and Phosa replaced,current ANC is a joke
i am black and i wont be voting for the ANC, hope they loose ground next year - Careful |
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Agreed
22/07/2008 08:51
i could not even have put it better myself. Those that have contrarian views to the article should attack the message in the article and not the examples used. Many a times you hear Bush expressing his opinion with regard to judgments issued by the Supreme Court, but never is it said that he is undermining the judiciary. - seppo |
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@ AJ
22/07/2008 08:55
"If you think that SA bought 10's of billions of rands in arms and the only criminal act was 1 person getting a discount on a 4 by 4 vehicle, then your perspective is irrefutable flawed)" as true as it might be, all you need to do is bring prove just like i think Zuma is guilty but without prove well he is free. - morena |
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"Collegial chat"
22/07/2008 08:55
However you look at it, the so-called "collegial chat" was improper.Judge Hlope had no right, and in fact breached every rule by doing so.If the 2 judges did not think this improper then it is correct that their seniors showed them the error of their ways.This is the judiciary, for goodness sake!Their should NEVER be any attempt at undue influence or interference otherwise their whole purpose is a farce. - DW |
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Flawed argument
22/07/2008 08:55
I am not a lawyer and my formal legal education is minimal at best,but even in my position I can dismiss your argument on several levels.Notwithstanding the space constraints of this comment box,you have conveniently neglected to mention the disbanding of the scorpions,which by all accounts represents the ANC's most telling grave and serious attack on the institutions that form the basis of our democracy and which would strive to hold the ANC criminally and politically accountable!! - Richard |
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@Careful
22/07/2008 08:58
Firstly, I am not a JZ supporter. Secondly, like you, I am entitled to my opinion. I think that judges should not be shielded by criticism when it is deserved.Thirdly, who cares that you're black? - VG |
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CC
22/07/2008 09:01
In fact i think the CC is trying to undermine the very same idea that it was concepted for and undermine our customs/traditions and culture.They make and take decisions without looking at the repercussions. E.g The ruling that woman can be Kinngs/Chiefs. They ruled without noting that in our customms the chieftaincy is based om bloodline and if a woman is a Chief who is going to father the person to succeed her. - Mathibela |
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the ANC as a political party
22/07/2008 09:01
has a majority in government and has an implicit influence in government policy, and therefor operates hand in glove with govenment.Also , most ANC MP's think they are untouchable and by criticising an independent judiciary publicly ,willingly try to influence it eg Zuma trying every trick in the book to evade his pending trial,AND he is the LEADER of the ANC. so, your article lacks credibility. - jerry |
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Misleading...
22/07/2008 09:04
A finger must be pointed at the DA & others for consistently misleading da public. In fact it is a historical trait that exists amongst them to this.It therefore confirms the ANC policy that the judiciary needs to be transformed.It also confirms that we as blacks need to deal with the underlying campaigns against our people.Its not new. These judges stand accused of bringing that which they should be protecting into disrepute.We need to unpack this consistent behaviour of a minority in a NEW SA - Cape Town Kid |
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Stop making excuses
22/07/2008 09:04
Yada, yada, yada... whatever you say.. The fact that Hlophe tried to influence constitutional judges just smells - badly! Hlophe got himself into this mess. But then he has gotten away with bending the rules before and he think he is above the law. Stop making excuses for people like this and start demanding higher standards from the FAT cats in positions of power. If we all did this there would be alot less graft and more work going on! - Yam |
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Dont interfere contradiction
22/07/2008 09:05
Ok, so you DONT want the media, and the DA etc. to interfere, but the ANC can? Very biast of you. You also, you quote travelgate. How many of those MP's have been fired? Im sorry, but you JZ supporters need to WAKE UP! Stop being an IDIOT South African, and think without your 'king' glasses on. NOTHING, you can say, can redeem the ANC at the moment. What was Mbeki's ratings at yesterday? 30%? And he's the best performing ANC member. Sad. - Sinudeity |
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Why is the colour of the judge important?
22/07/2008 09:09
How is the fact that Judge Hlope is black of any relevance?Are you, once again, trying to imply racism?There are many black judges on the JSC who have been included in the complaint against him.I dont see you complaining about the racism from Judge Motata, but then I suppose that is fine as it is not perceived as racism if it is black on white, is it? - DW |
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Pot calling the kettle black!
22/07/2008 09:11
You say that its a constitutional right to express yourself in favour or against an institution! Well its also written that you may not threaten (with death) people! "kill for Zuma" = Threat! And by what you say surely we can express disgust with the way the gov is corrupting the counrty without being branded a racist?! <- as you say its our constitutional right! - Dave |
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Brainwashed
22/07/2008 09:11
Its seems some ANC (Jacob Zuma) supporters have been brainwashed. Try and think out of the box, look at the bigger picture. - deb |
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Independence
22/07/2008 09:12
Being independent does not mean you cannot be criticized, that kind of thinking is wrong, being independent means the ability to implement the proper and sober decisions without taking external forces into consideration that is independence. the fact that you are independent from your parents does not mean that your parents cannot advice nor criticize you. no one is immune from criticism - Kolobe |
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Mtshepana Tembe
22/07/2008 09:14
Excuse me, Sir, But its John Hlophe trying to INFLUENCE the outcome of the court case against JZ. Thats the problem. Its not a expression but its him trying to demand a influence for JZ. Tony Yengeni has ben ducking and diving his sentance from day one. He only spend a third of the time in jail and since then there has been incidence after the next. He even has police "influence"covering for him. Your Opinion is a reflection of the low moral standards of the people of South Africa.Crimnals Fly - Cuno |
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Independent Tiers?
22/07/2008 09:14
Independent tiers of govt? Mbeki suspends Zuma and look what happened to him. The Scorpions charge Zuma and Selebi and they're going. MPs are charged and parliament tries to have the charges dropped. Yengeni gets 4 years and is out in 6 months to a warm reception and then his parole contraventions are ignored. Hlope makes an appointment to see 2 junior CC judges and just happens to casually inquire about the Zuma case and their career futures. - DavidD |
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@Careful
22/07/2008 09:15
I'm an ANC suppoter but not a Zuma supporter nor Mbheki, yes you right the new NEC is scary, Zuma according to me is guilty,Mbeki is protecting his own ministers,phosa, mantashe are just puppets all that said so is FF are clearly racists, DA is a camelion party,IFP have always been tool for the NP, NNP is just a moden day NP but with still the same agendas, now we brown people lol lol thats SA for you so don't run you hole only about the ANC - morena |
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No
22/07/2008 09:16
The concourt is a cornerstone of our democracy and a legacy of the freedom charter. Is it an ANC value to hold to a principle only for as long as it suits even though the constitution and its instruments is supposed to be universal and above the whim of individuals or parties? The US Concourt and constitution is hallowed and sacrosant as it should be here. But when the ruling party besmirches the court, what does that do for its stature and power as the custodian of our most cherished values. - Pete |
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Request
22/07/2008 09:20
For a fruitful and valuable debate can we request most kindly that the participants in this forum stick to the subject.Respond to the subject matter and put yr view across,maturely.Its idiotic to continuously talk apples oranges and pumpkins. You guys say the same things over and over again.Try adding new ideas, fresh views and stop reponding like robots. tatik tatik tatik. - Cape Town Kid |
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You are so naive...
22/07/2008 09:23
Do you even know what it is to play in the political arena? You give up your right to express your individual opinion on anything, you are a tool of the government and must speak with one voice. This is what gives the country a assurance that things are under control. The government is an ANC government and should be supported by its party. There is continuous in fighting - you seem to think is a good sign!? It isn't, it shows that the party is in disarray and doesn't even agree with itself. - Karen |
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Can we now PLEASE step off politics
22/07/2008 09:24
Just for one week? How about we argue: SA most obese population in Africa.
If that is true, we are all fat cats complaining with a bread and a cake under each armpit. So, lets just shut our traps for a week about our "terrible" living conditions and lousy government and influence the above stats for the better. Undue stress causes overeating anyway. - TB |
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@jerry
22/07/2008 09:26
what so wrong with Zuma trying every trick in the book to evade jail, who wouldn't do that and graciously accept jail time 0.001 will do that, how about arthur brown, how about simon man, margrate the devil thacher's son and so on - morena |
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Ran out space.....some more on "You are so naive..."
22/07/2008 09:27
In more simplistic terms....imagine the government as your parents. You are the child and you must watch your parents fighting, disagreeing on everything and criticising each other. This will make the child insecure, confused and feel that nothing is under control. If anything goes wrong its somebody elses fault, they do not have any control over anything. This is our government and it is no wonder we want to leave home and find parents that support each other and know what they are doing. - Karen |
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No I don't agree
22/07/2008 09:29
The concourt is a cornerstone of our democracy and a legacy of the freedom charter. Is it an ANC value to hold to a principle only for as long as it suits even though the constitution and its instruments is supposed to be universal and above the whim of individuals or parties? The US Concourt and constitution is hallowed and sacrosant as it should be here. But when the ruling party besmirches the court, what does that do for its stature and power as the custodian of our most cherished values. - Pete |
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@Kolobe - say it again - please
22/07/2008 09:31
..."no one is immune from criticism" - now please apply it to your precious ANC, ANCYL and government and then get off your high horse and stop crying racism or past injustices everytime somebody criticises them. Ever heard the saying "The highest trees catch the most wind". In case you don't understand its meaning - those in the highest positions of power will get the most criticism. - Karen |
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Yes, but...
22/07/2008 09:34
The same goes for ANC and government officials who cry racism and conspiracy when they get criticised. So long as it is made clear that those involved are speaking in their personal capacity, it's fine, but it's important that they specify that. The manner in which the complaints against Hlope were handled was inappropriate. It's appropriate that some sort of action should be taken with regard to that. However, that doesn't make any difference to the fact that Hlope has been implicated in serious wrongdoing and that must now be properly investigated and dealt with. @seppo - don't attack the examples... huh? So part of his argument is exempt from attack? JZ facing charges and actually being prosecuted are different things and the ANC attempting to remove the very body that is driving the JZ prosecution is under attack by the ANC. Perhaps they are interfering. Travelgate - many were simply let off. I don't recall any reasonable explanation being given for that bungle. And Yengeni... to claim that as a victory for the judiciary is just laughable. - CTheB |
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Stop crying
22/07/2008 09:35
It?s funny how you criticize the con court as they are the mouthpiece of your constitution that you bragged about being the best in the world and that was part of your party's negotiations to get power. As transparency is a key factor of the constitution and democracy you are in fact arguing against what you should be standing for. This is not your mommy?s kitchen where you can manipulate the truth to suit you. The sooner your party figures that out the sooner they will stop being corrupt. - shane |
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CapeTown Kid
22/07/2008 09:35
The Concourt WAS the result of transformation. What further transformation do you want, for the members to be elected at the next ANCYL conference? - DavidD |
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@MT, you are under an illusion if you think this.
22/07/2008 09:40
All spheres of society have been influenced by ANC & this includes the judicial system. There is a conspiracy whereby ANC is attempting to usurp the rule of law in this country, the same as has happened in Zim. Just a question, who makes laws, if not the ANC Gov. Hence, logic dictates that the Const. court base cases on LAW. If ANC members are then in Gov & justice system, does it not make sense that the one influances the other? MT, dont think your logic is flawed. None of them are unbiased. - Matrix |
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@ morena
22/07/2008 09:44
JZ claims he is innocent. He demanded his day in court and now that they want to give it to him he is trying to avoid it. He is about to take up the highest position in our land. If he is innocent, let justice take its course and it will be proven (remember his rape trial?) If he is guilty and is allowed to become president what does that say about the morals of our country?And if he is guilty and is misusing the power that he has,even more reason to lock him up! - DW |
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interesting?
22/07/2008 09:46
It is truely interesting to see the lack of moral fibre in supporters and leadership of the anc today.All is excused on the premise that is what's good for the anc is good for S.A.Attacking what is supposed to be an independant protector of all our rights on the base of racism and not law,is typical of the attitude of the anc and the rampant criminality it clearly protects.Scream as loud as you like,you have betrayed the dream of a nation united in diversity of race,culture and religion. - james |
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MT
22/07/2008 10:17
"They breached every JSC rule that governs the laying of complaints against judicial officers"
-oh no, MT... those are NOT rules but merely guidelines, so the JSC was well within its righs.. so lets focus on the allegations and not the process! - hifi |
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Democracy?!? You are joking...
22/07/2008 10:21
I hold a SA passport; I have investments in SA; I pay income tax on those investments in SA - yet because I currently reside in the UK I am not allowed to vote in any elections! That is not a democracy! That is a one party State who are too scared to let the diaspora have a say for fear of losing control. - outtahere |
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and it is the duty of the court
22/07/2008 10:23
to inform the public of all wrong doings within government and corrupt judges. The honsest judges were well within their constitutional right to expose the corrutp judge hlophe - terence |
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Quite
22/07/2008 10:24
I'm shocked that the media in this country have turned themselves into an opposition,They were quick to publish the so called "complaint" but the conduct of the Judges is questioned by a few, not to forget that some like Moseneke have already pronounced on matters that they have to preside over. - Montele |
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Wrong issue
22/07/2008 10:30
In a TRUE democracy we might be debating the issue at hand. From the expressions of leading ANC members it is clear that South Africa is an African democracy - You only call it a democracy as long as the ruling party's rule is not in jeapardy - It is clear the the ANC will crush with force any attempt on their rule, choice of leader or general ideology. That includes the concourt! - Ramlodi |
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ConCourt what a shame
22/07/2008 10:33
The way they handled this complain against Hlophe was a disgrace to the highest court in our land. They were the complainent and the judge at the same time. If Hlophe is guilty its for the JSC to find out NOT the ConCourt. When they went public about this, they should've expected public opinion and public criticism. They called for it. - Z |
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@hifi
22/07/2008 10:43
So guidelines that are meant to protect the integrety of the Judiciary don't matter? The ConCourt has undermined the integrity of the Judirciary by ignoring those guidelines. Those guidelines where there top protect the Judiciary, even, the JSC has called for a stop to this playing to the media that the ConCourt is doing. The PROCESS IS IMPORTANT because MORE THAN not it can affect the outcome. The process can't be ignored. - Z |
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Spindoctors
22/07/2008 10:45
Interesting how the issues are diverted. Hlope attempted to influence the Concourt so lets make a fuss about the judges advising the press about their intentions before filing the actual complaint. The Judge Pillay report on Govt corruption is leaked so lets appoint an adhoc commitee to determine if the Pillay commission fullfilled its mandate within its time and budget constraints. We have seen more press and SABC coverage on these side issues than the real issues at stake - Phumba - Phumba |
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ANC Criticism
22/07/2008 10:45
The issue is not whether the ANC criticizes the ConCourt judges - I happily do that. No, the real question is HOW they do it. Instead of just saying that this or that was not correct, ANC figures paint the judges in conspiratorial tones - with no evidence. The judges (and opposition - I am not a DA voter) are not merely criticised, they are demonised. That is what is wrong. - Mike A |
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Con Court composition
22/07/2008 10:46
Interesting to note is that out of the 11 judges of the Con Court, 7 are black, 1 is indian and 3 are white (one being a acclaimed fighter for the rights of the oppressed) How can this not be transformed?
Morena, stop talking nonsense about this being anything about white judges, but everything about a morally corrupt black judge. - Henk |
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@Morena, please...
22/07/2008 10:50
I am very confused. You shoot down ALL oposition parties. Inorder for democracy to be realised, it is of cardinal importance that there is a strong opposition party. I.E. if the ruling party does not deliver, you send a clear message to the ruling party that they are NOT delivering. WHO DO YOU PROPOSE AS OPPOSITION TO RULING PARTY????? - Matrix |
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Agreed
22/07/2008 11:13
Yes I agree however, tha ANC should not be immune to criticism by the general public. In fact criticism helps you to improve. Currently the ANC rubbishes criticism from white people as racist and from black people as counter-revolutionary. There are 3 things that the ANC must accept; 1 rampant corruption, 2 non-delivery of essential services and 3 constant in-fighting that is affecting the country as a whole. We are ruled by freedom fighters who think they are beyond reproach. - Mzekezeke |
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couldnt have said it better myself
22/07/2008 11:16
what u say is true - but the majority of ppl in this forum are DA worshippers. and true to their leadership their primary role is to criticize and criticize until they are blue in the face. I'd like to hear some solutions proposed or suggestions that will benefit our current situation. But nothing. Listening to too much zille is bad for your state of mind - you end up being a moaner, just like she. - Nada |
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Hlophe
22/07/2008 11:22
Why is everybody so quick to presume Hlohe guilty? I'm o fan of the man, but Bess Nkabinde and Chris Jafta are junior judges. Surely, if he were trying to influence the outcome of a case he would try and sway the senior judges? Why would Zuma's trial be overseen by a junior judge? surely it would bea senior judge or a full bench? this whole episode is dodgy - VG |
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I don't agree
22/07/2008 11:32
Lets make a new game of soccer, where the hosts appoint the ref (Concourt) and change the rules (under threat to the ref) when outcomes are unacceptable. Our constitution was hard won by all and for all. It is not an ANC expedient. The rules of the game exceed all of us. The Concourt is the referee of our constitution and should be esteemed accordingly - and it is their "obligation" to protect the court by challenging any form of judicial interference. That is a cornerstone of real freedom. - paula |
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Press
22/07/2008 11:40
One of the cornerstones of all true democracies is the 4th estate: the press. It works best when it is free to challenge authorities and speak for the national good. It worked well enough to bring down Apartheid and it serves us best today when it is not silent on issues of national importance. Stop whimping and get real - the scrutiny of public figues is vital to ensuring general accountability - that is democracy 101. Maybe now others will think twice before embarking on other slippery Hlopes. - Tim |
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