Johannesburg

Friday

Sunny. Cool.

2°C
18°C

7 day forecasts

'No one to blame for Gaza'

by
2009-01-07 08:23

Lucas Ntyintyane, News24 User

The Middle East never fails to disappoint! A new year, a new generation and an old war. The destructive cycle never ends. The pain continues!

Close to 600 people are already dead. Thousands have been displaced or left homeless. For what? To resuscitate a centuries old war that has no meaning or direction?

Ordinary women and children are paying a heavy price with their lives. The politicians, army generals and guerrilla leaders that started the carnage are living in luxury surrounded by bodyguards in the safety of the bunkers. War is a game to them. They do not give a damn about those who are dying.

I am reminded of David Shipler's wise words in his book, Arab and Jew - Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land: "...you will enter a vicious circle, blood for blood, and at the end you cannot remember where was the beginning . And you are not more just than the other side..."

Today I can confidently say no one has a clue about where was the beginning or an end to the carnage. The eye for an eye philosophy has left the region politically blind.

Unecessary and pointless

The current conflict is unnecessary and pointless. This is no longer about the land. It has nothing to do with religious differences. Massacring innocent people is not an excuse for self-defence. It is barbarism. The death of ordinary Palestinian is no different to the death of an Israel citizen.

This is pure hatred, driven by war-mongering vultures masquerading as leaders. The Israel government and the Hamas leadership are birds of the same feather. All they want is power at all cost, even it means destroying their own people in the process.

It is therefore myopic and misguided to blame one side for the mess. They all have blood on their hands. Including their so-called friends; Iran, Lebanon, USA and Syria are adding fuel to the fire and today the region is on the brink of insanity.

It is time for the people of Israel and Palestine to accept that bloodshed will not bring peace to the region. Suicide bombers, rockets, warplanes and gunboats have brought more hardship than prosperity. You can send as many suicide bombers into Tel Aviv or warplanes to bomb Gaza, but it will not put an end to the madness.

Why persist with violence, if it has failed to bring stability to the region? From 1948 until today, violence has not solved anything, only compounded the political quagmire. What guarantee is there that it will work now?

Peace can't hurt

The status quo must change! Sincere political dialogue is the only key to long lasting peaceful co-existence. The Israelis and the Palestinians can live together - what divides them is less than what binds them. Only the people of the region can save themselves from hatred and self-destruction. It will not hurt to give peace a chance.

This is not the moment to point fingers. I do not care about the past or who is right or wrong. It is an academic debate for the historians and political analysts to indulge themselves. My only concern is the unfolding human catastrophe. Surely that is good enough to make any sober minded person to think twice about pursuing the war strategy. What is victory, if all that is left are ruins and corpses?

It is clear the leadership of Israel and Hamas are not interested in peace. Actually, the war benefits them. Israel army generals are decorated with five star medals for bravery and Hamas leaders are celebrated as martyrs in the camps whilst the poor are starving or dying. It is the ordinary people on both sides of the political divide who must say no to this bloodshed. Because they are the ones filling the mortuaries and cemeteries.

The international community must intervene. The suffering must stop. The world cannot sit and watch. We owe it to ourselves to call for an end to this massacre. It is appropriate to conclude with the words of Jerusalem based author David Grossman. In 2001, he wrote: "...the two sides have been drawing each other's blood for almost a hundred years. Tens of thousands have already lost their lives. Yet the Arabs have not succeeded in destroying Israel, and Israel has not succeeded in cementing its occupation by force. The only thing that can prevent this horrible fate is swift international intervention..."

If they failed to kill one another in the past, maybe they must learn to live side by side in the future. The Arab leaders must accept the state of Israel. In addition, the Israel government must recognize the Palestinian Authority and their Arab leaders. When will it end?

Get published on News24 by sending your article, story or column to us

See who has had a say on News24.

Disclaimer: News24 encourages freedom of speech and the expression of diverse views. The views of users published on News24 are therefore their own and do not necessarily represent the views of News24. News24 editors reserve the right to edit or delete any and all comments received.

Rate this story:
Comments have been closed for this article.

Elizabeth 1/7/2009 8:29:44 AM
Actually, the Israeli government is interested in peace. They are willing to live in peace. They gave up Gaza. They WANT peace. Hamas, on the other hand, chose war. They chose to shoot missiles into Israel. Israel is defending herself. Is it Israel's fault the Hamas buffoons are pathetic and scared, hiding amidst civilians? Why don't those civilians just give them up? Force them out? Israel will stop the moment hamas stops shooting missiles, but hamas refused... Who's really the bad boy here?
TB 1/7/2009 8:34:21 AM
I have read on this issue. There will be no winners - ever - if they continue with this. Send this to the Hamas Chief and the Israeli Prime Minister. Maybe if they realize that the rest of the world view them as morons not heroes, they will stop.
Giorgio 1/7/2009 8:37:42 AM
recognizing the state of Israel can never happen until the following conditions are met: - Right of return for the millions of Palestian refugees displaced by Israeli forces in 1948 and 1967. - The dismantling of Israeli settlements in terms of the UN resolutions. - The return of all Palestinian land and monies stolen by successive Zionist governments. - Israel allowing UN weapons inspectors access to its Nuclear weapons. Only then can there be peace.
Stryker 1/7/2009 8:39:01 AM
Whilst killing of kids and civilians is deplorable at all times,I`m more worried about our own war. More SA folks die violently right here than die in Gaza. We lose 55 people a day to crime - gaza has lost 600 in what 12 days - thats 660 in the last 12 days. Yet I dont see our leaders up in arms about the carnage at home. As for international intervention - please get real - toothless tigers the UN - where have they ever really made a difference? They condemn and get on with munching the caviar.
VG 1/7/2009 8:42:04 AM
Lucas, everyone knows that war only compounds problems - the only way to prevent wars from occurring is to ensure that no human being feels as though dying is a better option than living in the circumstances in which they find themselves.The often hypocritical way in which the US and most European countries have approached the problem has compounded a volatile situation and, frankly, only intensifies support for the Palestinians
Kolobe 1/7/2009 8:45:48 AM
If you are my neighbour and you take the fireworks to start shooting towards my house and my dogs, which is what Hamas did! Then brace yourself for war! Hamas are to blame and Israel has a right to defend themselves, in the past Israel were intolerant but now Hamas was in the wrong, unfortunately its politicians that make silly decisions but the masses are the ones suffering, however this does not justify the killing and butchering of innocent lives, the pictures of little children dead at the expense of political egos shows how stupid war really is!!
Pop Idol 1/7/2009 8:49:54 AM
What do you mean by "Israel gave up Gaza" ???? Israel doesnt belong to the Jews anymore.Those ancient Jews dont exist anymore.Jews are all racially mixed and are citizens of different countries.So how can you say that Israel gave up Gaza?? These people have been living in Israel and Gaza for over 2000 years while jews emigrated all over the world.Out of six billion people in the world,only about 1.5 billion believe that all of Israel belongs to the Jews,the majority do NOT !!!
Butterfly 1/7/2009 8:50:09 AM
The end of times are near I'm telling you, perhaps we will be seeing Jesus soon?? for only he can bring peace to that land. They will be fighting and fighting it will only stop once Jesus returns.
Cape Town Kid 1/7/2009 8:50:18 AM
The war is waged to send a msg to IRAN and SYRIA. This war is to ensure that there is no possibility of a Palestinian state.Israel have used a window to ensure the killing fields with the help of USA until Obama gets in.Obama will be strained due to appesement.This is not as simple as u make it.It is abt changing the face of the middle east and ensuring there are new powerbrokers.But they have not allwd for the mood to sway as it is hence Egypt,Abbas,Jordan,et have to watch the electorate now!
Grace Kadzere 1/7/2009 8:50:44 AM
I do not condone war but sometimes it is the way out. Good example, if Zim citizens had given to an uprising in 1999, JUST MAYBE, by now Mugabe wouldn't be in power anymore & the number of deaths would have been lower than the deaths recorded in the past 10 years. So let Israel fight, it might be the only way out. Besides, the number of South African deaths from accidents, HIV, violence on a monthly basis is more than the recorded deaths in Israel so far, so why not focus on us..
Angola Badprop 1/7/2009 8:52:31 AM
Well said Stryker.I see our government has strictly condemned the violence in the middle east while they still play cat foot with their northern neighbor. Funny how they poke their noses where it doesn?t belong and cant sort out their own crap on their and inside their own border.
Rynette 1/7/2009 8:53:16 AM
Yes, I know war is a terrible tradegy, no wins. But you are so right about our own country and the innocent lives who is condenming our carnage right here.
Boerseun 1/7/2009 8:53:50 AM
I fail to see how Isreal wants peace being involved in two full scale wars in the last 3 years. They didn't give up Gaza they cut it off. Do you think that if even a third of the money that went to Isreal from the west went to the Palestinians we would have this war at all. Its a war of opresion, by Isreal against the poor and desperate. How else do you supose they fight for their cause?
Giorgio 1/7/2009 8:55:54 AM
If you are my neighbour and take over my house, move me and my family into a small shack behind, prevent food, water and fuel from entering my house, and then take over any income which I am entitled to (customs revenues of Palestine stolen by Israel), the can you blame me for shooting firworks at your house? Then, after I shoot the fireworks and nobosy in your house is injured, you bulldoze my entire house and kill my wife and children. Israel is an Apartheid state.
Mo 1/7/2009 8:55:55 AM
Israel can never win against a people that have nothing to lose. The palestinians have sufferred for far too long, and the international communities response or lack therefore to the terrorist state of Israel is the biggest embarrasment to humanity. Every nation that has oppressed has fallen in time, and Israel will be no exception.
Les-Maada 1/7/2009 8:57:58 AM
Israel should get off the Palestinian land & recognize the Palestinian authority!The USA must stop backing Israel then the likes of Iran,Syria etc will do likewise!Ive once asked about the importance of a truce when one still have the other's land occupied!!The Palestinians are not just fighting for lollipops in this regard!Israel should just swallow its pride & do the honourable the thing!
T 1/7/2009 9:00:09 AM
The problems abroad are far less threatening to us SA citizens then the trouble at home. Unfortunately i can only see it getting worse with the elections on the way. Unless our government realises and acknowledges our need for a free,fair and safe election i will not be surprised if we too, like Zim, get called back for re-vote. Here's to hoping...
Pieter Joubert 1/7/2009 9:13:02 AM
Lucas should be congratulated for being able to see history in context and unravelling the truth from it. That's an ability not learnt at school, I presume? It gives me hope for our own future, these occasional flashes of intelligence and class from various South Africans. It reminds me that the Protea team who has just had the SCG on edge, playing to standing ovations from a hostile crowd, are also South Africans from various communities. We haven't sung our last song yet, we South Africans.
Mike F 1/7/2009 9:13:49 AM
I'm looking 4ward 2 a time when these "leaders" will understand that they r voted into power not 2 serve their own interests and 2 feed their macho egos. We must remind our leaders that we vote them into power 2 serve. There is great power in serving yr people. The ongoing conflict in Gaza is all about the politics of exclusion & revenge. What is needed is the politics of Reconciliation. But Reconciliation is hard work 4 most of us. Thats y we r not prepared 2 engage in acts Reconciliation.
War Master 1/7/2009 9:15:16 AM
I do not understand why so many people are so outraged by Israel`s actions. I guess they are religeously blinded. It seems 2 parties are claiming the same piece of land, so conflict occurs. But I tend to respect the Israeli mentality - if you mess with them they will take you out. They do not target civilians - Palestinians targets Israeli civilians. The same goes for USA - the USA does not target civilians, unlike their enemies. I can respect that. As for war and voilence, I blame all humanity.
colin 1/7/2009 9:15:27 AM
The Israelis are thieves and invaders and does not have a right to exist - why did the international community and world powers support the creation of an illegal state of Israel but conversely they condemned the apartheid system and its atrocities. For me there is no difference against the Apartheid NP government and the state of Israel - why don?t we see sanctions against the state of Israel - why are there atrocities overlooked - when will the international courts step in - it is blatant racism on the part of the Israeli government and the UN as certain leaders are allowed commit crimes against humanity and others are prosecuted left right and center .
Francois 1/7/2009 9:16:07 AM
in agreement with your statement!
Jayson 1/7/2009 9:18:02 AM
The war can be trace back to Abraham when God promised him that his wife Sarah will have her child in her old age instead of waitng for the promised to fullfilled Sarah forced Abraham to marry an Egyptian slave by the name of Hagar and Ismael was born. to cut the long story short sarah chased the slaved and her child away because he was'nt the promised and the bible goes on to say that the brothers Isaac(Israel) and Ismael(Arabs) will live in eminity with another.The war can be trace back then
Kolobe 1/7/2009 9:19:07 AM
We are talking about war in Israel not crime, crime and war are two different topics, wait for a post that talks about crime then start ranting about government this and that!! In case you have not noted the article talks about war that is currently taking place in Palestine, chief
Philosopher 1/7/2009 9:20:53 AM
For Israel it is a huge risk to launch military action. They certainly do not want it, and the negative publicity that goes along with it. But they are forced into it by Hamas's attacks on Israeli civilians. I promise you, if Hamas gave up their armed "struggle" today, there would be peace tomorrow.
Biggs 1/7/2009 9:21:05 AM
Come on Lucas we're sick & tired of reading this kind of article everyday coz its the same stuff over & over again.Can't we get same more positive articles that can encourage us or get us into a place where we can look at the brighter side of life.I mean we had enough of war topics lets change the subject a bid it's a new year.
Sam 1/7/2009 9:21:22 AM
Hamas sent rockets into Israel, why? We shouldnt believe everything that we read in newspapers and watch on television. The US and Israel are noted for reporting incorrectly and not telling the whole truth. Israel is enjoying feeling like the victim and they surely are not. They are slowly drawing the world's sympathy by saying that it is self defense. hamas sent not more than 10 rockets into Israel and that too did not hurt one civilian and yet Palestine is being punished so badly.
Philosopher 1/7/2009 9:21:54 AM
For Israel it is a huge risk to launch military action. They certainly do not want it, and the negative publicity that goes along with it. But they are forced into it by Hamas's attacks on Israeli civilians. I promise you, if Hamas gave up their armed "struggle" today, there would be peace tomorrow.
Butterfly 1/7/2009 9:22:07 AM
No it's not that you are my neigbour, if you occupied my land without my permission, kicking me out of my own house by force, and having me live not even in the backyard but in a remote area you think i will accept that? I assume you are black, you should know better of how it feels when someone takes over your land.
Ubaid 1/7/2009 9:22:48 AM
Israel says it started this war because of Hammas firing rockets into Israel. I ask, What would Israel have done if Hammas were keeping 1.5 Million Israelis under siege with no fuel, food and basic essentials for over 18 months, closing their borders with other countries. . . Would Israel not have not retaliated if positions were turned?
Joe 1/7/2009 9:22:49 AM
Colin your ignorance and one eyed view of Israel astounds me. How far back in history do you want to go silly boy. Israel have every right to exist so how dare you call us thieves and invaders. Its your mentality that causes ongoing conflict. Go Israel and dont stop till every last murdering hammas dog is eradicated.
Spydaman 1/7/2009 9:22:55 AM
Kolobe, you moron. Israel took their land by force in 1967, and displaced more people in 1948. Won't you fight to get you land back?
CS 1/7/2009 9:24:19 AM
is recognised by both Israel and the world at large. The problem is the terror group Hamas.What would happen if ordinary citizens in Gaza stood up against Hamas and told them not to place weapons etc in the suburbs, near schools, places of worship? Simple they would be killed off!
Philosopher 1/7/2009 9:25:17 AM
There can never be a right of return. If that was to happen, the Jews would be outnumbered in their own country, and the dream of a Jewish Israeli state would be destroyed. Give up on the right of return, or this conflict will never end.
Kolobe 1/7/2009 9:32:41 AM
But then I asked for forgiveness for taking all that from you!!! And we signed a peace agreement, all of a sudden I hear rockets in my backward after peace agreement, then I would understand that there was no peace, are you saying that because the apartheid government did that to us then we should rocket them down, or use the Zimbabwean methodologies of taking back what belongs to us. think carefully here chief!!
Stryker 1/7/2009 9:34:00 AM
Firstly I`m not your chief, if I was I`d send you to school, secondly if you havnt noticed the crime in SA is a war - more ppl die here everyday than in Iraq and afganistan combined - now I know in your myopic and somewhat Government brainwashed view of SA thats perfectly acceptable, but in my view it is not. Or perhaps I just happen to give a sh!t unlike you and our wonderfully honest government.
Giorgio 1/7/2009 9:37:29 AM
So you mean the millions of Palestinians displaced by Israel, losing their land and livelihoods in the process, should simply give all this up without any compensation just so that the illegal Jewish state can continue to exist? As a 'philosopher', im sure you have studied the concept of justice.
Wallie 1/7/2009 9:39:03 AM
Clearly you guys that are backing the Zionist has no clue to what is realy happening. I chalenge you all to stop getting you info from CNN,BBC, ABC and try alternate sources and go do real research on the issue maby then you'll realise that muslims jews and christians lived harmonously together for hundreds of years until Zionism was born. Go out there in SA find a true Jew Rabbi and he'll tell you that what Zionist are doing is totally out of Jewish practice. Guys I beg you do research.
M 1/7/2009 9:43:40 AM
Would you stop "struggeling" if someone took away your land? You need to look at it from both sides. The Germans gave up large territory losses after WW2 but the resentment is still there. One can't just take someones land and give it to someone else. History has shown us that this always leads to war at some stage or another.
Mpho R 1/7/2009 9:45:36 AM
Are there any historians out there who can answer this question without bringing emotions into the picture? What is the role of Britain, the former colonizer, in all this mess? Arabs own the bigger part of the Middle East. How is it that the little land that Jews own is also claimed by the Palestinians to be their own. I surely don't know of any other group/tribe of people who cannot lay claim to some piece of land out there. Hamas should stop setting up bases amongst civilians.
DJ 1/7/2009 9:46:13 AM
The Jewish nation are Isrealites, decedents of Abraham and David. In so much as the Arabs and the rest of the world tried to destroy the Jewish nation for more than 2000 years, it was not to be. Israel has miraculously overcome. In stead of black mailing Israel for land in exchange for peace, the Arabs with their vast land resources should put their money where their mouth is and help to relocate their Palestinian brothers and sisters so that all can live in peace (if that is what they want).
Dutchie 1/7/2009 9:46:47 AM
The sad part of it all is that after all the wars and killings and truces, the Zionist experiment will one day come to an end. This is not a wish, but an observation. The Brits thought that the sun will never set over their Empire. The workers thought they will live for ever in their Soviet Utopia. Most Afrikaners believed that Apartheid will never end and that Mandela will die in jail. This is just how the world works.
M 1/7/2009 9:48:38 AM
One can't harbour a grudge forever, especially that long. If that was the case, all of us would have to be at war for some wrong doing.
Spydaman 1/7/2009 9:50:54 AM
Hamas is not a terror group. They were legitimately voted in by the people of Palestine.
Madness 1/7/2009 9:51:31 AM
Sad that the conflict had to resort to war once again. The whole world must just except that the State of Israel will never be destroyed. The Arab world hatred toward the Jewish State has always been there. The coming of the Messiah will sort out the conflict forever. Lets not forget that the Evil One knows his time is nearly up and he will try his utmost to destroy Gods chosen people.
morena 1/7/2009 9:52:47 AM
hey you just put a whole new meaning into leaving in luxury surrounded by bodyguards in bunkers, that must be some luxury there lol
bob the builder 1/7/2009 9:55:16 AM
indeed a good artical!! yet its to late to bring peace as the father will take revenge for his daughters limb-less body.
GT 1/7/2009 9:59:32 AM
There is no question that this is the fight Hamas has been desperate for. They fantasise about have a war the jews. Hamas and the Israelis deserve each other. Both parties think they are Gods chosen folk and have a destiny with the end of days. Lets give it to them! I say let them shoot the shit out of each other until either there is no one left or they finally realize that their religious bollocks has caused enough pain and sufferin
Linds 1/7/2009 10:01:35 AM
I'm disappointed in you Kolobe. Do you also believe that the ANC & other movements were wrong to fight the apartheid government in SA. Blacks were move by force from their land just like Israel is occupying Palestinian land.
William 1/7/2009 10:03:47 AM
What if Hamas dumped all their rockets in the sea tomorrow? Would Gazans enjoy the same freedoms as other nations? Would they be able to open their sea port to foreign ships and rebuild and operate their airport? Would they be able to import and export and carry on trade and develop their economy and prosper like other countries? Would they be allowed to exploit and develop their offshore gas field? Would their fishermen be allowed to fish in unpolluted waters? Would their young people be able to come and go and take up places at foreign universities? Would Israel clear out of Gazan airspace permanently? Would the Israeli navy cease its piracy and stay out of Palestinian territorial waters? Would you and I be able to visit Gaza direct? Fat chance
AbuTameem 1/7/2009 10:05:03 AM
This is only true if you live with your head in the sand or are gullible - ever heard of the BALFOUR declaration, ever hear of Deir Yassin - ever heard that a person like Ariel Sharon is found guilty of war crimes and then gets elected Prime Minister. You certainly are ill-informed but if you read only this media - then it will always be the case.
seema 1/7/2009 10:05:41 AM
Good for you Lucas , with your approach you will not be accused of being out of depth , its time we demystify the middle east ,i don't buy " you don't understand the subject , the problem is far complex or the subject is out of our depth " where are those experts, clued up and learned geeks of the matter ? We need solutions period ! if i ,just a mere waiter can render some solutions so be it ! All we need right know is way forward keep your thesis and history in your Kist!
The Truth is 1/7/2009 10:06:19 AM
Theft is Theft. They Stole the land with the help of the west. They are armed by the west and they Kill innocent people. It is simple, Theft is Theft no matter how you try to Justify it. When you try to defend your property against a marauding thief, well that is honourable. The Honest Moral High Ground is with those who were dispossessed. Those who have supported the killing of the disposed are obviously EVIL, simple according to the Bible, Torah and the Quran.
Boni 1/7/2009 10:06:33 AM
i tend to agree with the writer. as a young person trying to follow this, it is really difficult to place blame on one party. historian and academics also tell us inconsistent versions. Surely its about time we let go of the history and found a peaceful solution for the current and future generations. both israel and palestine should compromise, honestly. but i feel sorry for palestine!! the power in this war is really assymetrical.
bbvb 1/7/2009 10:08:16 AM
Correct. See what happens when people sleep around. Let this be a lesson to all men not to sleep around or with woman of other races.
Hero Nakamura 1/7/2009 10:12:59 AM
I absolutely see no point of referring to history in current Israel/Hammas war. Israel is blaming Hammas for firing rockets towards their civilians and acting as terrorist group. Israel can easily destroy Hammas by simply using intelligence and targeting Hammas bases and not going on rampage and killing innocent Palatines. This is simply an act of revenge and it is indeed a war crime. Cutting aid, supplies, closing borders and cornering innocent civilians is not self defense.
Ubaid 1/7/2009 10:14:22 AM
Joe you arrogant fool please read the history of the middle east and you will see that Israel stole(dirty thieves they are) that land from the Palestinian people. They used their backing from the petro-Zionist Americans to kill and destroy. They held Gaza under siege for over 18 months, why don't we put all you South Africans who stand by apartheid Israel's stance in Gaza under siege with no fuel, food and basic essentials for over 18months and see how you feel?
CTheB 1/7/2009 10:17:21 AM
Ummm, the war in the region is a religious war. The Jews claimed the land because their holy book says it belongs to them. On what evidence are you basing the claim that the Israelis don't target civilians and the Palestinians do? You respect the Israeli mentality, yet you don't seem phased by the fact that the Palestinians are reacting to the Israelis messing with them. Your only valid statement is that war and violence are human.
sataar 1/7/2009 10:19:12 AM
the majority of Gazans are refugees, whose ancestors used to live in what is now Israel. "Everybody knows that 75 per cent of the people of Gaza are refugees. Everybody knows that Israel disengaged from Gaza militarily, but occupies it economically and politically and also it besieges Gaza militarily. "Israel would say, "what would any normal country do if they were threatened by rocket fire? They would act". "But Israel is not a normal country, it is an occupying country, a colonial co
The Elusive Leprechaun 1/7/2009 10:24:18 AM
This strife will continue seeing as these nations have a disagreement on the matter of religion. Though I am biased towards Israel, I'm sure that they can flush out the terrorist cowards with slightly less force. The use of force however is necessary. Hamas fights for its own honour and doesn't care for its own Muslim people.
GW Bush 1/7/2009 10:26:28 AM
So what you are saying is that as long as the displaced Paletinians stay out of their land that they were thrown out of, the people who threw them out will have a majority and that will solve the conflict. It is almost like saying that as long as the black man did not have the vote in SA and stayed in the homelands provided for them by the apartheid govt, the apartheid govt who threw them out of their land can rule forever. Your argument does not make sense.(Esp. as a South African)
morena 1/7/2009 10:27:24 AM
"if Hamas gave up their armed "struggle" today, there would be peace tomorrow" but what about thier land you mean give up on getting thier land back like here is SA
Point Blank 1/7/2009 10:28:53 AM
Why must Israel let the UN in to inspect their nuclear weapons? Israel is not a nuclear threat and has never been so why the inspections? That is not a requirement set by anyone, I think you sucked that one out of thin air. As for requirements, Hamas is a terrorist organization both in the EU and US, they deploy suicide bombers, hurl missles into Israel every single day. 2 years ago they could launch 20km into Israel, today they can launch 40km, next year 60km?
Point Blank 1/7/2009 10:30:48 AM
Come guys we have wasted so much energy on the likes of Cape Town Kid, Jabu, Calvin and Mlungisi. Ignore them and engage with interesting and intelligent people instead of the obviously ignorant and purposefully aggressive lot that they represent.
The Elusive Leprechaun 1/7/2009 10:31:33 AM
Just want to add to what you mentioned. If my memory serves me right Ismael and Isaac had no gripe. The trouble came with the doctrine which Mohammed started preaching, which led the Muslims to believe the promised land was theirs and not that of Israel. The irony is that both nations share a common ancestor - Abraham, the father of the Faith.
BM 1/7/2009 10:31:48 AM
So what you are saying is that if Hamas gives up now and continue to live in the same horrible condition that they are forced to live in by Israel there would be peace. I ask you would you give up your struggle for a better live that you by the way are entitled to, would you give land that is yours, would you give up your fight for your children to have food to have gas, to go to school, to get the medical care they need would you!!!
Point Blank 1/7/2009 10:32:50 AM
Not entirely true, the land was given to Palistinians and Israelis equally. Jordan and Syria attacked Israel in 1967 called the 6 day war. Israel made the mistake of building settlements in that area afterwards, they did not steal the land.
Elizabeth 1/7/2009 10:32:52 AM
Pop - so we can say the same in SA? Since those ancient tribes don't exist anymore, anyone can take the land? boerseun - give up / cut off - means the same. Ubaid - uhm. if they were without food for 18 months, they'd be dead. My biggest problem with this is hamas claim Israel has no right to exist! How poor and oppressed can hamas be if they can afford missile after missile? When Zim is mentioned, we're not allowed a word, yet we can go on about Israel? CTK, go write stories for Hollywood!
No_Pity 1/7/2009 10:34:21 AM
These stupid states should have a "China wall" built around them and be allowed to fight indefinately, we are tired of always reading about the war between them. The international community shouold just back off and stop supplying any ammunition/food/medication etc to those morons and let them fight till they perish. Viva to turning a blind eye against Israle and Palenstine, Viva. These fools have been fighting an ancient war since the world existed. They are cursed, Period.
JHS 1/7/2009 10:38:03 AM
If THE "Palestines" (Arabs) have the right to return what about the right of the Jews to return to the Arab countries they lived in and where displaced during the wars (1948,...)?
Point Blank 1/7/2009 10:38:54 AM
Israel is not illegally occupying Gaza, they not even in Gaza. Hamas rules Gaza, not Isreal. They have closed Gaza yes because Hamas keep smuggling arms in there via secret tunnels, they also bomb Israel every single day, but yes poor Hamas, shame poor Hamas, I fell rocks for Hamas, they ARE a terrorist organization and they deserve what they getting. But not the civilians I agree, but then they could evacuate but choose not to. Double edge sword my man.
Point Blank 1/7/2009 10:38:54 AM
Israel is not illegally occupying Gaza, they not even in Gaza. Hamas rules Gaza, not Isreal. They have closed Gaza yes because Hamas keep smuggling arms in there via secret tunnels, they also bomb Israel every single day, but yes poor Hamas, shame poor Hamas, I fell rocks for Hamas, they ARE a terrorist organization and they deserve what they getting. But not the civilians I agree, but then they could evacuate but choose not to. Double edge sword my man.
Sharon 1/7/2009 10:40:18 AM
Israeli have learnt one or two things from the Nazi: 1) The fundamental importance of "Lebensraum" and the acquisition of it at any cost. 2) For each Israeli killed one hundred palestinians are killed; no matter if they are babies or women. 3) Propaganda must constantly bombard people through media with the most unbelievable lies. The more you lie, the more the lie becomes truth.
Sweetpea 1/7/2009 10:40:47 AM
Mahmud Abbas is a US Puppet. So we only support democracy when it has the outcome we want, is that it? People in Gaza voted for Hamas and now the US and Israel don't like that so they must be stamped out. Same thing in Iraq, they wanted to get a puppet in power. The US Labels anyone with a Muslim name a terrorist so why should Hamas be any different?
Dan 1/7/2009 10:41:08 AM
The killing of innocent unarmed civilians is called a massacre.Its like saying because 1 armed jew killed a German Soldier in WWII in self-defense this justified the subsequent persecution of millions of innocent jews.Has anyone ever seen Hamas tanks or warplanes on tv?If Hamas rockets killed Israelis this would of been bombarded on the network TV's endlessly!Life is sacred irrespective of race or creed!
Point Blank 1/7/2009 10:44:16 AM
Please tell me for what purpose does it serve Hamas to launch missles 40km into Israel hitting schools, a kindergarden and various other civilian targets? Also the Al-Aqsa mosque is built on top of an ancient Jewish temple, also where is Bethlehem?
Philosopher 1/7/2009 10:44:33 AM
The entire Middle East was ruled by the Ottoman Empire (which had taken it by force). Israel was only a small portion of this empire. Most of the Arabs living there immigrated into the area from other parts of the empire quite recently. So the notion that somehow the land was taken from a "Palestinian nation" that lived there before, is incorrect. Read up on the Elon Peace Plan. That is the sanest solution. In short, it entails moving all the Palestinians into neighbouring Arab states.
Richard Hipkin 1/7/2009 10:45:48 AM
See what happens when we allow history to determine our future. Time to let it go people and build on a future using today as a tool, not yesterday. I hope there is peace there soon.
Zee 1/7/2009 10:45:49 AM
"They do not target civilians - Palestinians targets Israeli civilians." - dude have you lost your mind? Go and take a look at the casualty figures and compare Israeli civilian casualties to Palestinian civilian casualties. They are GROSSLY disproportionate. Wake up man!
Isi 1/7/2009 10:47:12 AM
Why is it that Syria, Jordan and the rest of the Arab race only support palistinian suicide bombers and other cowardly acts against anyone they deem unworthy in accordance with some moral muslim highground. If they were true believers why not fight man to man and wear a uniform instead of hiding amongst woman and children. Oh yes I forget, when they did try, Israel kicked their collective asses. I feel less than zero for your brave warriors.
J van Rensburg 1/7/2009 10:53:26 AM
Israel does not occupy any land. Land belongs to those who conquer it. The Arab world lost Palestine, Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights when Egypt started the war of '67(blocking off a country's shipping lanes is considered an act of war under international law). With the exception of East Jerusalem all the conquered territory?s were returned to the aggressors, so what else must be done from Israel's side? Should the Israeli's just sit back and take the beating? They have my full support for their current action
CTheB 1/7/2009 11:01:35 AM
Ummm... it serves no purpose? I've just read my post and sure enough I didn't say that Hamas acted correctly, nor did I say that the Palestinians don't target civilians. I've been unable to find reference to how many Hamas killed with the latest missiles that are blamed for Israel's massacre in Gaza. Bethelehem is just south of Jerusalem (unless you mean the one in Free State). So what?
Deano 1/7/2009 11:02:00 AM
Israel is only pushing so hard now because the Bush administration is still is power in the states. They know that they might not get away with as much when their American allies are under Obama's control. They are only listening to peace talks now because Obama's inauguration is on the 20th. Im not saying that Hamas is in the right, only that Israel's level of action is due to a favourable political climate. They would never try something so harsh if the USA were not allies.
CS 1/7/2009 11:05:00 AM
Hamas are situated in the Gaza area it is debatable whether they were voted into power without intimidation etc. However that would just make them another political party then with one exception they are a armed political party!Funded by Iran so you statment that Abbas is a "puppet" would then apply yot Hamas and the leadership...a "puppet" of Iran and other radical organisations! As far as I am concerned they can have I Israel BUT never, never, never the area designated as the Temple Mount!
CS 1/7/2009 11:06:11 AM
Hamas are situated in the Gaza area it is debatable whether they were voted into power without intimidation etc. However that would just make them another political party then with one exception they are a armed political party!Funded by Iran so you statment that Abbas is a "puppet" would then apply yot Hamas and the leadership...a "puppet" of Iran and other radical organisations! As far as I am concerned they can have I Israel BUT never, never, never the area designated as the Temple Mount!
Duzi 1/7/2009 11:12:42 AM
Dude, I whole-heartedly agree with ignoring the ignorant! Reasoning and open discussions are impossible with people who only hear their own voice. Pity... a little tollerance can go a long way. Tollerance would probably put a stop this ridiculous war!
colin 1/7/2009 11:14:44 AM
THE SAD THING IS THAT AS WE ARE DEBATING ON THIS TOPIC A BABY OR A CHILD HAS BEEN HIT BY A ROCKET OR A BULET FIRED BY THE AN ISRILI SOILDIER - AND WHAT MAKES IT EVED SADDER IS THAT THEES SOILDEIRS AND THERE GOVERMENT DO NOT FEEL AN OUNCE OF REMOURSE THIS IS NOT WAR IT IS MURDER PLAIN AND SIMPILE
Point Blank 1/7/2009 11:15:20 AM
You cannot look at figures and draw conclusions. The differences between the two are fundementally huge! Hamas hide out amongst civilians, they launch their rockets from playgrounds, they hide the weapons in mosques. Come now people, you all reacting without thinking.
Sweetpea 1/7/2009 11:16:22 AM
How sad that you think oppressing people should be something any religion or state should be proud of. If the world felt the same about Hitler, where would Judaism be today? I agree, the Arab world should stand together and crush Israel. One winter with no oil for the US and we'll see how their loyalty to the Israeli's shift!
Elizabeth 1/7/2009 11:17:26 AM
I agree with you. And for once I even agree with Kolobe ;-). Even here in SA people who had ancestors living here many hundred years ago, claim the land back. Yet Israel is not allowed to live on land their ancestors lived on a lot longer ago? Hamas could've come out of hiding to fight like men, yet they prefer to hide among children and women! Oh yes, they see women as worthless. I forgot. Sweetpea, not everyone with a Muslim name is branded a terrorist....
Warmaster 1/7/2009 11:23:04 AM
The mentality of Hamas: "Kill the infidell". In their mind infidells are not limited to soldiers, but civilians too. The suicide bomber that enters Israel specifically target civilian infidels. The Israeli army has got strict rules not to target civilians. The only reason so many Palestinian civilians die is because they let the extremist soldiers use them as human shields.
CTheB 1/7/2009 11:31:20 AM
As far as I know, claims from 'hundreds of years ago' are not being entertained in SA. If we're to entertain claims from any era, then what about those who lived on the land before the jews, if any? There is a difference between the SA situation and Israel. Apart from anything else, I seem to remember from high school history that the area taken was majority muslim, not majority jewish. If a jew were properly elected to run the country, fine, but that's not how it happened.
Point Blank 1/7/2009 11:31:50 AM
Please stop using South Africa as an example of stolen land. South Africa did not even exist when the blacks and whites arrived. So it is wrong to say that land was stolen from anyone just because you happen to live on it at the time.
Ubaid 1/7/2009 11:34:54 AM
please prove to me and everyone else in this forum that the land belonged to Israel? if you cant read then get someone to do it for you, in 1964 only but a small plot the size of Pretoria belonged to Israelis. but they were greedy and thirsty so they killed looted destroyed other peoples lives.@point blank watch al jazeera and you will see the truth pictures don't lie.
Point Blank 1/7/2009 11:42:15 AM
You asked what evidence is there that Palestinians are targetting civilians. They use suicide bombers in markets, they hurl missles 40km's into Israel onto civilian targets, are you only looking at one side of the story? There is PLENTY evidence that they target civilians. Israel have plenty of evidence that the targets they target may appear to be civilian but are actually weapon stores, tunnels and Hamas war rooms, typically hidden in amongst civilian areas.
Conscience 1/7/2009 11:47:49 AM
Maybe the end of the world and the second coming of Christ is near. Events in Gaza point to an Armageddon situation if it is not resolved and besides, JZ said so too. The ANC will rule till the second coming of Christ - so prepare, the end is nigh!
Sam 1/7/2009 12:00:11 PM
Steal Land = Wrong. Oppression = Wrong. Suicide Bombs = Wrong. Morally brankrupt. This is not religion, no religion teaches this. Both sides are wrong but Isreal supported by GW is obviously like a billion times worse than the suicide bombers.
Spydaman 1/7/2009 12:05:43 PM
CS, show me a government that's not armed?
Giorgio 1/7/2009 12:10:24 PM
That is probably the most racist, islamophobic post I've read. Its because of people like you who view muslims as sub-human that you can justify the killing of innocents. Lets hope the rest of us dont sink to such pathetic levels.
CS 1/7/2009 12:21:06 PM
Ok so if Hamas is a government and the Palestinian Authority is then we actually have moved from the concept of "two states" to three now! The PA have recognition at the UN Hamas has none. What you are in fact saying is that the DA COPE ID etc etc where they have pockets of power are then allowed to arm themselves...the DA in the Western Cape are the 'government" in the region why can they not be allowed to arm themselves then?
Elizabeth 1/7/2009 12:24:33 PM
What's really sad, is your spelling...
Jonas 1/7/2009 12:24:48 PM
I never thought that I would see anyone more ignorant of facts than Jabu Pule and CTK, but you are chasing the title with all the ignorance you can muster!
Giorgio 1/7/2009 12:26:14 PM
This whole human shield is becoming tiresome. I suppose that when thosands died in the hiroshima and nagasaki bombings that they were also human shields? Fact is, If you bomb a civilian area, civilians will die. Therefore, do not bomb civilians. Do not use internationally outlawed cluster bombs. Do not attack mosques at prayer times. Do not attach schools during school time. Israel, the apartheid state is guilty of all of this.
Point Blank 1/7/2009 12:43:01 PM
Once again you sucking stories from thin air. You getting tired of the civilian shield thing because you simply cannot argue against it. If you want to argue civilian facts then where is your condemnation of Hamas using schools as weapon depots? You one sided, it is impoosible to debate with you when you approach it from one side. Israel is dead wrong in using the force they are but then again you need to look at the other side of it as well, you are not.
colin 1/7/2009 12:45:34 PM
At least is my spelling not as bad as your racist Ideologies and upbringing.

inside news24

Cpt: 15-19°C Passing showers. Afternoon clouds. Mild. Pta: 4-21°C Sunny. Refreshingly cool.
Jhb: 2-18°C Sunny. Cool. Bloem: 2-18°C Sunny. Cool.
Dbn: 14-25°C Sunny. Mild. PE: 16-26°C Sunny. Pleasantly warm.
7 day forecasts...
Western Cape Eastern Cape Kwazulu Natal Gauteng

Cape Town - 06:24:33 AM Earlier accident between the R300 Highway Interchange and the Airport Approach Road has been cleared More traffic reports...

Cape Town - Here are the winning Lotto numbers from the Wednesday, July 8 draw.

7, 10, 21, 30, 37, 39 Bonus 8

Lotto Plus: 2, 5, 14, 16, 19, 44 Bonus 23

SMS the word Lotto to 31222 to get lotto numbers sent directly to your phone.
 
More lotto numbers...

Jobs - Find your dream job

Sales Director

KwaZulu Natal
The Unlimited World

Web Developer

Gauteng
Quiglies Solutions

CLIENT RELATIONSHIP OFFICER

Gauteng - JHB North/Sandton
Emmanuels Staffing Solutions
R220,000-250,000 Per Annum Cost To Company Incl Benefits

Cars - Search 1000's of new and used cars

AUDI

A4’s From R199 000

VOLKSWAGEN

New Golf GTI From R317 300

LAND ROVER

Discovery 3 4.4 V8 HSE 4x4 AT
2006
375000

NISSAN

Tiida 1.6 Visia+
2007
105990

PROTON

Gen 2 1.6 GL 5-dr
2006
79900

Property - Find a new home

THE WILDS

Single Residential 4,200,000

STEYNSRUST

Single Residential 3,500,000

XANADU

Single Residential 3,910,000

Travel - Look, Book, Go!