News24

'God particle' announcement soon

2011-12-12 08:22

Geneva - Scientists predicted this weekend that sighting of the first strong signs of a particle vital to support Einstein's ideas on the working of the universe will be reported on Tuesday by the Cern physics research centre.

While warning there would be no announcement of a full scientific discovery, they said even confirmation that something like the long-sought Higgs boson had been spotted would point the way to major advances in knowledge of the cosmos.

"I am feeling quite a level of excitement," said Oliver Buchmueller, a senior member of one of the two teams seeking the particle amid vast volumes of data gathered in Cern's Large Hadron Collider (LHC) this year.

And science bloggers with close contacts among the tight-lipped front-line research groups, known as Atlas and - Buchmueller's - CMS, said their understanding was that both had found signals that look very much like the Higgs.

"The anticipation among physics enthusiasts is almost palpable," said theoretician Sascha Vongehr on his blog, www.science20.com. The observation of a "light Higgs" would be announced at a Cern seminar on December 13, he said.

Certainty

Cern's director general, revealing the seminar would be given updates on the Higgs search by the heads of the Atlas and the CMS groups who work independently and in secret from each other, said there would be no discovery announcement.

For that, there would have to be a high degree of certainty - measured at 5 sygma - by both. Informed bloggers are saying it is hovering at about 2.5 sygma for CMS and 3.5 for Atlas - enough to qualify the sightings as "an observation".

But, said Buchmueller, without confirming that reading for his own team, if the Atlas group had found signals similar to those seen in CMS, "then we're moving very close to a conclusion in the first few months of next year".

The boson was posited in 1964 by British physicist Peter Higgs as the agent that gave mass to matter in the wake of the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, making possible the formation of stars and planets, and eventually the appearance of life.

But efforts since the mid-1980s to find the particle in the US Tevatron collider and the LHC's predecessor at Cern, the LEP, and prove Higgs correct by smashing particles together and creating mini Big Bangs, have until now failed.

The boson has been called the "capstone" of Albert Einstein's universe of elementary particles and three fundamental forces that control the cosmos under the "Standard Model" finalised by physicists in the 1970s.

The Higgs particle was the missing linking brick in this architecture.

Doubt

Its discovery, if eventually confirmed and especially if it is at the low mass levels where bloggers are saying Atlas and CMS have found it, would open the way to what Cern calls the "New Physics" of super-symmetry and dark matter.

Some top scientists, such as Briton Stephen Hawking, have long voiced doubt that the boson exists and should be replaced in the Standard Model by something else.

But in an interview in the December edition of the British monthly Prospect, the 82-year-old Higgs - who has been tipped for a Nobel prize - said that "if you tried to modify the theory to take it out, the whole thing becomes nonsense".

Comments
  • Fredster69 - 2011-12-12 08:41

    "if you tried to modify the theory to take it out, the whole thing becomes nonsense"...I agree

      Poaul Zwarts - 2011-12-12 08:58

      So, you are willing to use TV's, computers and other life enriching discoveries brought to you by science, but now the latest scientific discoveries earns your snide ridicule?

      Victor - 2011-12-12 09:30

      And the religious troll makes his appearance - again, and again and again! For once, can we have a science article without any religious zealots?

      Phoenix - 2011-12-12 09:40

      Victor because it is only a matter of time before religion goes 'poof'

      Fredster69 - 2011-12-12 09:49

      Victor and Phoenix...Who said anything about religion? Good thing you are not judgemental

      Joe - 2011-12-12 10:16

      Victor and Phoenix, Mao wants you in his bedroom. Bring your kneepads.

      wesley.bischoff - 2011-12-12 10:36

      Let's hope religion goes "poof" soon...

      J-Man - 2011-12-12 12:52

      @ wesley. It will. Like all its other "the earth is flat and you will burn if you say otherwise" "statement"s, it is only inevitable that it will indeed go *poof* sooner rather than later.

      mal10s - 2011-12-12 20:07

      Eish... It seems once you've earned the title of religious troll, you can't even quote (and agree with!) one of the greatest physicists of our time without being flamed. Tell me Victor, have you actually read Fredsters comment before you flamed him, and if you did, do you actually know anything about particle physics? At all?

      Victor - 2011-12-13 13:39

      @Fredster69: You are a religious troll - I've been seeing your posts a long time @Joe: Lol, what a cheap shot. Did Mao do bad things because he didn't believe in god? Makes you wonder then about Hitler - who was a christian. @mal10s: Yes, I read his nonsensical comments - he is a religious troll. Yes, I do know something about particle physics. What is your point?

      Victor - 2011-12-13 13:47

      mal10s: See what your friend Fredster69 posts: "You know what makes my day...the Coelacanth fish. That blows the entire big bang theory out the water." Only he knows how to make a link between the Coelacanth and the big bang theory.

      mal10s - 2011-12-13 19:02

      Point taken on the fish, yes, but that's not the point. Taking the Higgs out of the currently most widely accepted version of the Standard Model is kind of like taking the right angle out of Pythagoras' theorem.

  • Nathi - 2011-12-12 09:34

    Either way its exciting.

  • Turdy - 2011-12-12 10:42

    It's a shame that these topics get so little attention from the public...If Britney took a crap on the street it would generate more interest to the ignorant masses.

      Phoenix - 2011-12-12 11:02

      Two reasons: children are not taught current physics in schools which means that don't have a clue about particle physics or even relativity - a theory which is now more than 100 years old. Other impedement is religion.

  • Trevor - 2011-12-12 11:12

    I think it will become exciting times for both religion and science - who knows I believe that it begin to show that the two have more in common than many like to think and hopefully bring the two closer together. It might show hardliners on both sides that there is middle ground to be had. Scientific revelation has had the ability to shed new light on many of life's mysteries. I would like to believe that well thought through religion takes this into consideration, thinks about it even further and attaches the moral implications to it and hopefully enhances the scientific discovery and thereby urging scientists to discover yet more.

      GLY - 2011-12-12 13:30

      Atheitis. Please explain how? And try to do it without using insults.

      jody.beggs - 2011-12-12 13:52

      @GLY Its called lack of evidence. If you create any theory it needs to be backed up by physical, recordable evidence , otherwise your "theory" falls flat. Religious groups have theorized about God's and Jeebus through out history, but now those "theories" needs to be backed up with hard evidence , not feel good stories or the "truthful" Bible. Damn the man, save the Empire !

      GLY - 2011-12-12 14:04

      Jody. I guess that you have not seen any archaeological evidence. There is so much out there. Literally carved in stone.

      jody.beggs - 2011-12-12 14:18

      @GLY . I've seen evidence dis-proving Christianity. Like Dinosaur bones dated before 6000 years or buildings built before the creator created earth. Please give us your evidence !

      GLY - 2011-12-12 14:35

      Jody 1) Chariot wheels have been found at the bottom of the dead sea, 2)The ruins of the walls of Jerico, 3)Sinatic inscriptions in Wadee El-Mukattab in Sinai. 4) Please explain why so many Christians are prepared to be killed for something that they do not believe in. 5)Please explain why so many peoples lives have been changed after an encounter with the living God of Abraham, Issacc and Jacob. I could go on. Remember that there is more proof over the ages that the Bible is true than there is to support your view that science disproves the Bible. Just look at how many people have tried to destroy Christianity and ALL have failed. As for the method of dating fossils these are highly subjective as in the form of Radio carbon dating. Miracles do happen. I have seen it in my life and unless you have experienced one I can understand your sckepticisim. There are many areas where there are still questions both from science and the Bible. But the lack of understanding does not make either one wrong. One day all will be answered.

      Fredster69 - 2011-12-12 14:46

      GLY...I am glad I am on God's side. Just wish that all people will come to know Him.

      Fredster69 - 2011-12-12 14:52

      You know what makes my day...the Coelacanth fish. That blows the entire big bang theory out the water. I see they changes the documents after discovery from ''it lived 400 million years ago'' to ''we believe it lived'' BOLLOX!!! it was spotted in 1938 and even in the 80's alonf the north coast. 400 million year old live fossil.. BA HA HA HA

      jody.beggs - 2011-12-12 15:00

      @GLY. 1) Chariot where carried in ships that sank into the red sea. 2) Jerico fell , doesn't mean a trumpet did it , it was an earth quake. 3) Ancient Sumarian texts talk about the anunnaki. (People from the sky) And it makes more sense than the Bible ever will. 4) What Christian is prepared to be killed for their belief ? (besides you) 5) Its called phyco bable , some poor sheeple just need to believe , hence so many religions , not just Christianity. I really wish you wouldn't go on , its really easy to discredit you because your only working with half a deck of cards and not really interested in the rest of the information. Just because the Bible incorporated some facts , would never mean its all true. But please I'm still looking for "facts" , hard evidence not a quote.

      jody.beggs - 2011-12-12 15:08

      @GLY. Do you still believe blindly that the world is still flat ? Or burn witches at the stake ? Or any other fad belief Christians have made over the years or has Christianity adapted to societal norms ? If so its not the truth but an adaptive consciousness meant to keep people in power and money! Miracles don't happen , life does and we try to give it meaning , "I must have been god , because he should have died." Please your looking for miracles so when something extra ordinary happens , its a miracle ! (Please give an example) I see miracles all the time in nature but none ascribed to Jeebus. Christianity is killing itself by being greedy and sexist .(Just ask the Christedom community) Carbon Dating has never been perfect to the year or decade but to thousands or millions of years and for the time frame I'm thinking about its perfect. The Bible can't answer the questions I need answers for , its about relationships with people and God's not about truth and facts. You need to be more open minded about today and not about a book written yesteryear. The only reason the world will end , according to the bible , is when a religious nut destroys the earth. I'm really getting tired of , "It must be true its in the Bible !". Think for yourself sheeple , but if you can't just shut it ! Damn the man.

      jody.beggs - 2011-12-12 16:16

      @GLY. This is how loving your god is : http://www.evilbible.com/god%27s%20not%20pro-life.htm http://nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm Do you still really love him or just like the benefits of being a man. Damn the man, save our little children and woman from religious persecution.

      GLY - 2011-12-12 16:44

      Jody. I guess you did not look at the site that mentioned and are only giving your explanations. Christians are dying daily for thgeir belief look at the voice of the maryters site. Your answers are not of the standard that would impress me. No proof supplied. "The Bible can't answer the questions I need answers for , its about relationships with people and God's not about truth and facts." I agree with this comment. Once you have that relationship the truth will be come clear. I suspect that this relationship, in your case is either very week or non existant. For 2000 years people have been trying to discredit Christianity and the Bible and yet the Bible is still the bgiggest seeling book in the world. The head of the law faculty at Harvard said that the evidence for the authenticity of the Bible would stand up in a court of law. I look and examine the Bible on a regular basis but without a relationship with the creator a lot will not make sense.

      GLY - 2011-12-12 16:51

      Jody please explain why we dont hear about piltdown man anymore. According to my research carbon 14 dating says that organic material cannot be older than 60 000 years. Therefore how can bones that have been found be millions of years old. There are far too many inconsistancies in scientific dating methods to be considered accurate. Radioactive isotopes have been studied for less than 100 years, yet in that time the decay has be measured enough to "accurately" age fossils billions of years old. This is stretching science a bit too far. The credibity for the Bible is greater. With over 20 000 manuscripts that date back to the mid 1st century.

      jody.beggs - 2011-12-13 08:42

      @GLY. is that your evidence , 20 000 man made scriptures ? Please , don't make me laugh ! Hard proof or just don't bother replying ! Damn the man.

      jody.beggs - 2011-12-13 08:46

      @GLY. Carbon dating might not be accurate , but there is more than one method. Just like good science , you make mistakes , but then you try again , un-like Christian Doctrine of just believe. http://naturalselection.0catch.com/Files/radiometricdating.html You say I have given no proof.... But where is yours , and please for all extensive purposes , anyone talking to themselves is crazy, so having a one way relationship with "God" (no proof of existence ) would just be stupid , like believing in Satan Claus. I've even added quote from your bible showing that God has caused infanticide. Do you really belief and love him for killing babies and giving consent to abuse woman? Please rethink your beliefs as I do everyday. Damn the man.

      Victor - 2011-12-13 13:45

      Fredster69: Another jewel: "That blows the entire big bang theory out the water" - what the hell does the Coelacanth have to do with the big bang of all theories? Explain? "GLY...I am glad I am on God's side. Just wish that all people will come to know Him" Yeah dude - no religion mentioned by you at all - LMAO GLY: We don't use carbon dating to date things that old. Do yourself a favour and google the subject - the info is out there. Why do creationists always fall back to: 1. Carbon dating - it's not the only radiometric dating method, why do you think it is? 2. piltdown man - who thinks piltdown man is evidence of anything? Does piltdown man get mentioned by Richard Dawkins when he discusses evolution? No. Only the creationists. It was a hoax and no modern scientist gives it any attention! "The credibity for the Bible is greater. With over 20 000 manuscripts that date back to the mid 1st century. " Evidence for what? By your own reasoning the baghavad gita should also be the truth. Provide evidence for jesus' resurrection Provide evidence for the israelites' slavery in Egypt Provide evidence that the earth is only a few thousand years old

      Mike - 2011-12-13 14:25

      Victor you must be as tired as I am of hearing the same stupid debunked a million times argumenst that rear their head all the time but then again the concept of learning by reading proper scientific material is like kryptonite to the enemies of reason and the intellectually challenged. I would love to just read proper comments from a scientific point of view and not the drivel of zealots!

      CosmicBob - 2011-12-13 22:33

      @GLY When you have actually tried (and I mean really tried) to understand the scientific method you will understand that you can't take your facts from a single "infallible" source. The bible is definitely not as infallible as you would like to believe. The versions we see to day are pretty much descendants of the King James bible which was the first English translation which was begun in 1604 and finished in 1611. The KJV not 2000/4000 years old. The bible has been chopped and changed (sometimes unknowingly and sometimes for political purposes) throughout it's history. There are copies upon copies of manuscripts and all of them are different, some in small ways, others in large ways. A professor by the name of Bart Ehrman actually took the time to study this and has a few talks on the authenticity of the bible. You can view one of his lectures held at Stanford University here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3N4ymHO-eA Science never claims to provide complete truth as religion does. It is a self correcting mechanism to help us better understand the natural order we find ourselves in. Only problem is, scientists don't make good teachers, and thus, you get folk who will just cling to their religious beliefs because they misunderstand the laws and theories (read scientific theories, not hunches) that come out of science. Whether the Higgs Boson reveals a case for a deity or not, I put my trust in science and not an old book that was copied over and over by fallible men.

  • Zion - 2011-12-12 11:56

    Why must the Role of God, or the absence thereof always be brought into a discussion where it does not play a role. It seems to be either an ego lifter or ego basher.

      GLY - 2011-12-12 13:31

      Atheitis. I look forward to the announcement. Lets wait and see what they say.

      Fredster69 - 2011-12-12 14:48

      Just keep in mind...God even created that smallest article

      Trevor - 2011-12-12 15:55

      @Atheitis: I'm not worried/frightened by science and I'm also not blinded by religion. Both require close inspection and both most definitely need to be questioned and interrogated thoroughly. Like I mentioned earlier, I think this discovery whether positive(hopefully) or negative will give both scientists and theologians much to discuss and to debrief. I think that the results will provide much food for thought for science and religion and the interrelationship between the two. I do not believe that the two need to be mutually exclusive, on the contrary I believe the two to be mutually inextricable: a bit of a long debate to get into here. Suffice it to say, I believe there will be many more of the faithful(extract super fundamentalists out of this number) who are eager to see a positive result than those that do not, because it will add further credence to the awe that many possess. Our scientific discoveries opens up many wonders and these wonders are made ever more amazing because of their discovery.

      Victor - 2011-12-13 13:48

      Fredster69 "Just keep in mind...God even created that smallest article" vs "Who said anything about religion?" You clearly don't know what you're posting.

  • Travis - 2011-12-12 12:56

    Interesting stuff...Can't wait to see how this pans out.

  • Jeffrey - 2011-12-12 15:33

    @Fredster69, And who/what created god?

  • NuttyZA - 2011-12-12 16:14

    for goodness sake ppl... Fredster69 is an atheist... he just likes to troll!

      Mike - 2011-12-13 11:32

      He's not it's Fred you are referring to

  • EyesEars - 2011-12-12 16:36

    Funny how millions can be spent on scientific research, but never enough money feed the people of the world.

      Ben - 2011-12-12 16:41

      Science needs to be be fed for the bigger picture... Rather take the money used for war which is vastly greater...

      Phoenix - 2011-12-12 17:39

      Yes lets stay in the middle ages where we all die the moment a virus mutates. You cant see the point behind advancement? Food science, medical, tech, agriculture, communication to name a few???

  • Ben - 2011-12-12 16:39

    Oooh this is going to be so cool!!

  • scratty - 2011-12-13 08:50

    Maybe after they find the 'God particle' they'll find the tooth fairy too

  • Mike - 2011-12-13 11:22

    Funny how the science and technology articles attract postings by alchemists and astrologists. We have many enemies of reason posting here. I can never understand why we have the so many debunkers of science around but then again science is difficult and requires proper education. Much easier to spray a brain fart on the page than an view based on scientific principles. Most disconcerting is the mantra of debunked religious drivel that continuously raises it's head.

  • Victor - 2011-12-13 13:57

    To the religious zealots: If a scientific fact were to be found that contradicts your religion would you accept it? If the answer is no, then what is the point in debating with you? What is the point in reading these science articles at all?

      Mike - 2011-12-13 14:18

      There isn't any point Victor because the goal is not to learn new information, the real point is to demonstrate the highest level of scientific ignorance and to make the rest of us certain of that fact. I like the coelacanth and big bang theory comment.......good for a laugh no sorry worthy of derision. You would think this forum existed in the bronze age with one or two enlightened individuals.

      Ben - 2011-12-13 15:53

      In 1991 Cornell Professor Carl Sagan had a lengthy conversation with the Dalai Lama about science and religion. When Sagan asked what would happen if a new scientific discovery directly contradicted a religious doctrine, the Dalai Lama responded, “Even the Buddha said we should question his teachings. A scientifically minded Buddhist does not consider Buddhism a religion. It is a science of mind, an inner science.” He said that an important aspect of Buddhism is an inner and outer examination of the world, and “only if through investigation things become clear, then it is time to accept and believe.” To which Sagan exclaimed, “That’s a lot like science!” Damn the Lama rocks. Google the pic of him and Sagan with the photo of a galaxy.... 2 Awesome minds..Awesome photo.

      Ben - 2011-12-13 15:54

      http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/68765_436243705425_586005425_5775534_5047222_n.jpg

      mal10s - 2011-12-13 19:27

      Victor - not that I'm a religious zealot (just a believer) but nevertheless. I did read in the Scientific American probably two decades ago about a quite elegant mathematical proof (might be mistaken, but I think it was Turing?) that God can't possibly exist. Yet I still believe. I accept all kinds of scientific facts which seems to contradict my beliefs, and yet I still believe that God created this whole universe, scientific laws and all, and as such doesn't have to be bound by them. What is the point debating me? None at all. You don't have to. Leave me in peace to express awe in the wonder of creation. What is the point in reading these articles at all? I have to feed my sense of wonder, my friend. Why do you read them? And now a question of my own: Time and again we read about physicists at CERN creating "mini Big bangs" in the LHC. Now imagine how our technology will look just a few hundred years in the future, when we may have built a 3000km long LCH on the moon, for instance. What sort of little big bangs we will create then? Now imagine our technology a million years from now. And you guys tell me our universe couldn't have been created by somebody?

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