News24

HRW: Epidemic of hate crimes against gays

2011-05-03 23:04

Johannesburg - The murder of a lesbian activist who was stoned and stabbed to death is part of an "epidemic" of hate crimes against gays in South Africa, Human Rights Watch said on Tuesday.

Noxolo Nogwaza, a 24-year-old member of the Ekurhuleni Pride Organising Committee, a gay rights group, was stoned to death in KwaThema outside Johannesburg on April 24, police said.

Human Rights Watch said evidence indicated Nogwaza was targeted because she was a lesbian, saying the murder "appears to be the latest in an epidemic of brutal homophobic attacks".

"Nogwaza's death is the latest in a long series of sadistic crimes against lesbians, gay men, and transgender people in South Africa," Dipika Nath, a researcher for the rights group, said in a statement.

But police spokesperson Tshisikhawe Ndou said investigators do not currently consider the murder a hate crime.

'Purely' rape, murder

"We do not have evidence to conclude that the crime was committed against her based on the fact of her sexual orientation. It is just purely murder and rape that we are investigating at this stage," he told AFP.

Human Rights Watch said Nogwaza was stabbed repeatedly with glass shards and left in an alley, her face and head disfigured by stoning. A beer bottle, a large rock and used condoms were found on and near her body, it said.

Police have not made any arrests for the murder.

Activists say lesbian women are often victims of "corrective rape" - forced sex with a man to "cure" their sexuality.

A 2008 study found that 86% of black lesbians in the Western Cape live in fear of sexual assault, in a country that sees an estimated 500 000 rapes a year.

Nogwaza's body was found in the same township where Eudy Simelane, a former midfielder for the national women's football side, was gang-raped and murdered in 2008.

Human Rights Watch said Nogwaza's murder was "eerily reminiscent" of 29-year-old Simelane's, for which two men were convicted in 2009.

"Both were 'out' as lesbians in the community, both were tortured and sexually assaulted before being killed, and the bodies of both were dumped in public places," it said.

Studies by the government-funded Medical Research Council in 2009 and 2010 found that one in four South African men admitted to committing rape, and one in three in north-central Gauteng, where Nogwaza and Simelane were attacked.

Comments
  • Lycanthrope - 2011-05-04 00:37

    Her head was bashed in, she was stabbed repeatedly, gang-raped but this isn't a hate crime? What the hell kind of La-La land are these police living in? There was much more to this than "just" rape. There are monsters living among us.

      zaatheist - 2011-05-04 04:24

      Yes. And who eggs them on all the time. The Muslims and Christians with their hate and bigotry. So these killers are cheered on by the pope and a thousand mullahs because they are just doing carrying out the instructions of the scriptures of their ever loving gods. They will all eventually enjoy an everlasting wonderful life in heaven.

      Jabulani - 2011-05-04 04:55

      @zaatheist Your comment reveals your thought pattern. You are anti-religion. The main issue is Violence, Rape, murder etc.

      KGBB - 2011-05-04 07:33

      The monster is the ANC, they are not humans, they are creatures of satan.

      Barry - 2011-05-04 07:38

      @zaatheist Your comments disgust me. Not all Christians and Muslims go around with hate and bigotry.We are taught to love each other unconditionally. You should do some soul searching yourself. The fact of the matter is the woman was brutally raped and murdered. Why don`t you spare a thought for Her family. The fact of the matter is you are bereft of all feelings and hope as I see you are a non-believer. This explains your mail. Now get a life.

      Christian Herbst - 2011-05-04 08:01

      @Barry and Zaatheist. Both are right. Unfortunately muslims and Christians are the ones that discreminate the most agains gay and lesbian people. But for me being gay, I am a gay Christian. The main problem here is respect and unfortunately a hate crime. They must just remember, what you sow, you will reap. And that is for everyone out there. May God open our fellow South Africans Eyes in a loving manner.

      cerveza - 2011-05-04 09:31

      @Barry - zaathiest has a valid point, the last time there was an article about gays on news24 there was a lot of people quoting the bible to "prove" that it is wrong and openly expressed their hate. The sad thing is that most religions do try to teach love and understanding, but also their holy books contain outdated opinions that is used by many to promote hate and violence.

      Matt - 2011-05-04 11:00

      @zaatheist. How ignorant of you! Does this story say who the perpetrators were? From a Christian perspective, Christians who read their Bibles will know that homosexuality is 100% wrong, but they would never do the judging and kill someone for it - love they neighbour, no matter who/what he/she is. Also, NOWHERE does the Bible command people to hurt or kill others because their views differ! Get your facts straight. Example - homosexuality is condemned in Romans 1:26 onwards, but in Romans 2 it says that if you judge such people, you are equally guilty! Unlike atheists, we have a moral code. Sure, atheists can be good people, but may I ask - where do you get your morals from? How do you tell right from wrong? If there is no God to give you absolutes or rules, then how do you know what is right and wrong? does the government decide what's right or wrong? Do you decide what's right or wrong? If so, the world is in serious trouble! So, go on with your usual atheistic "I'm smart, you're dumb" attitude if it pleases you; anyone of religion with half a brain can see right through your hatred of religion and mocking of religious people. Just one thing buddy - atheism is a religion too! You religiously believe that there is no God. You religiously look down on people who believe in soemthing. You religiously believe you evolved from a rock billions of years ago via apes (take away "billions of years" and look at your theory then!). Still, it is your right to believe these things.

      Matt - 2011-05-04 11:16

      @ Cerveza. The Word is not outdated; people just change what they consider to be right and wrong. @ Christian Herbst - I can imagine the torment you must have suffered beign a gay Christian and I respect your right to choose the way you live your life. It is still wrong though. I know there are "gay churches" and as an active researcher of religion, these churches are not following the Word of God. Deo Gloria for example has some bad roots! Myth - homosexuality is only condemned in the Old Testament. Truth - Read Romans 1:26 onwards. Not in the NIV, that was translated with hidden agendas and deleted the verses. Preferably the KJV. It is VERY detailed. Myth - the Bible doesn't say why Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. Truth - read Genesis 19, it is extremely clear why. Also read 1 Corinthians 6:9. God created Man and Woman differently; it is the clear intention throughout the Bible that Man and Woman be united and become one. Look, God loves you infinitely, and we as Christians should love you as we love ourselves, but it is still wrong, and for the result see 1 Cor 6:9-10. The modern world may say it's OK - tell me about it, I grew up in Holland - but that doesn't make it right. Majority opinion counts for nothing; if it did, the Jews would never have left Egypt, many times in the wilderness they said they wanted to return! But let nobody judge you, remember they have no right to, it is your life to lead, nobody else's. God be with you!

  • Banned - 2011-05-04 01:17

    The murder of farmers and South Africans in general is an epidemic, when are we going to declare it as such

      ImAnAfrican - 2011-05-04 02:28

      @Kuhle, are you the News24 police? Banned said South Africans in general, that includes everyone, Black, White, Indian, lesbian, gay, etc. There was no mention of race in the post either. You, yourself went ahead and made a comment that has nothing to do with the topic.

      Banned - 2011-05-04 02:46

      @ Kuhle, How is it possible that I wrote 21 words not mentioning anything white and you read it as racist, read my reply to Jabulani slower then, cause theres a lot more words this time.

      Protest - 2011-05-04 07:22

      @Kuhle Your comment is spoken from the viewpoint of a Black Race Supremist. You opened the can of worms with your derogatory comment

      wgibsonsa - 2011-05-04 08:24

      Hey Kuhle, why is this so rampant in the black community. Why do we not break these crimes down to race with regard to victims and attackers. A couple of months ago Third Degree did a progaram on this and all the "men" spoken to were black and all had derogatory comments about gays and lesbians and what needs to be done to them.I still emaild ETV and asked why no white men were interviewed. I got no reply from them. All the victims mentioned here are black and I will bet that every suspect is black. That is the reality and not about racial bias

      Koos - 2011-05-04 16:25

      the easy solution for gays and lesbians is for them to move to Cape-Town. I'm black and i'm not a fan of gays and lesbian but i will not harm them as long as they don't look or touch my ass, it doesn't make sense in this african skull how a man love another man, i can understand whites cos they are always curious but a african person it hard to take. why all of the sudden we have black gays and lesbian? where i grow up i never saw a gay or lesbian, until i moved to the city and i went to club where there were lots of white people and i saw for the first time 2 girls kissing and i was shocked, i'm still waiting to see the old black gay man or lesbian, why majority of black gays are in 20 or 30, its leave me with a thought that they might think its hip to be gay but i might be wrong, thanks god none of my family are homosexual.

  • Jabulani - 2011-05-04 01:56

    Violence, murder and rape against any person should be stopped. Under the law we should all be protected the same. I also think that gay-activists are trying to prevent people to be outspoken about their lifestyle. It seems that your public denouncement of a gay lifestyle will become a hatecrime in itself. This will be a blow to freedom of speech. Especially in a country where the majority of people do not agree with gay-lifestyles.

      Banned - 2011-05-04 02:43

      Its got nothing to do with lifestyles, or colour or religion or politics. We cannot move forward until we stop killing each other because we dont agree with one another, we are slowly sinking into the dark ages again. Burning people cause we think they witches! Calling rape anything other than the brutal violation of another person by justifying as "corrective" or anti-gay is never going to resolve the issue. The woman was not raped because she was gay, its because there is something fundamentally wrong with South African society where 25 to 33% of the male population find that rape is acceptable. By making the rape of lesbian a hate crime, you've justified the crime and belittled the victim, "Well she was raped because she's gay" No! Rape is wrong, and needs to be punished regardless of the victims race, gender, colour, age, socio-economic status, marital status, religion, political party, tribal affiliation etc!

      Jabulani - 2011-05-04 04:35

      @Banned, Please read my comment again; you will see that I agree that Voilence, murder and rape is the issue. However, Gay -activists have a bigger agenda!

      Brieuse - 2011-05-04 06:40

      what is bigger than murder and rape, Jabulani? You disgust me.

      daaivark - 2011-05-04 06:52

      "gay activists are trying to prevent people to be outspoken about their lilfestyles"... Ignoring the grammar for a moment: If that were the case, they wouldn't be activists. What exactly are you saying?

      Jabulani - 2011-05-04 07:02

      To Brieuse and daaivark. Let me explain again. Murder, rape and voilence is the real problem. Gay activists are trying to make it a hate crime, to be outspoken against a gay-lifestyle! Do I need to use handpuppets?

      Brieuse - 2011-05-04 07:29

      No Jabulani, take your handpuppet and shove it. The gay activists are trying to get it so that GLBT's can live a life free of persecution. How you can consider that agenda worse than murder and rape is mind boggling. *sarcasm on* Would you perhaps prefer a compromise? Maybe the homophobes will agree to stop murdering and corrective rape if the gay activists will agree to let employers fire employees if they discover they are gay? Or maybe the odd punch in the face should be deemed acceptable? Maybe not so extreme. Maybe teachers should be allowed to go against sound scientific research and be allowed to lie to the already confused adolescents that their lifestyle is chosen and all their parents fault? That the world will be a better place if they hide their true feelings for the rest of their lives. *sarcasm off*

      Christian Herbst - 2011-05-04 08:06

      Jubulani.. I think you need to put yourself in a Gay person's shoes. To be gay, is not one of the most popular things in SA. And believe me, I know. I have heard and endured many comments as recently giving bad comments like "Bliksem" him Str8 etc. so before you make a comment again. THINK BEFORE YOU RIGHT!!

      Janine - 2011-05-04 08:19

      "The majority of people do not agree with gay lifestyles" - really? How do you know this?

      Jabulani - 2011-05-04 08:19

      @Brieuse Please don't try to put words in my mouth. I agree that the main issue/problem in this country is Violence, Murder and Rape. My concern is that gay activists like yourself(?), are pushing to have any public statement that is anti-gay be declared a hate crime. This will go against peoples right to say being gay is moraly wrong! Thus it will affect peoples freedom of speech.

      Matt - 2011-05-04 11:27

      @ Jabulani, @ daaivark - I agree. It is not just a case of gays wanting to be tolerated. The REAL meaning of tolerance means that you give them human respect and dignity, but you don't have to like what they do. The GLBT movements around the world are trying to merge "tolerance" with "acceptance". I grew up in Holland but come from UK. Go look what is happening in Europe! The man at the adoption agency in Spain who was suspended, fired, taken to court, fined, made to pay back like 2 years worth of salary, because he refused to allow 2 men to adopt a baby. The hotel owners in the UK who insisted that unmarried couples do not get a double room because of their beliefs, so 2 men go there knowing this full-well, get denied, start a lawsuit, win compensation, the elderly couple are close to losing everything and the husband is in hospital, the 2 men then launched another lawsuit to get more money! Or the UK gay undercover journalist who went to a Christian counsellor, saying he's got these tendencies but is a Christian, please cure him - when she said she'd try, he taped it, launched a lawsuit, got her fired for bigotry. To my knowledge, it's 10x worse in the USA, but SA seems to be shielded from the madness and people just get on with life, besides acts of barbarism like in this case.

      Rover_ZA - 2011-05-04 11:52

      @Matt I don't see how that has any relevance to the gay community as that behaviour is evident in non-gay situations too. That's just people exploiting a system. In what way is that behaviour unique, or even more prevalent amongst gay people for you to link it to them almost as though you view it as an offence? Is it wrong for gay people to want to be accepted? Should their only aspiration be to be tolerated? There's something very condescending about the way you say you are "tolerating" someone.

      Matt - 2011-05-04 12:08

      @ Rover_ZA. Define the meanings of "tolerance" and "acceptance". Tolerance means that you should respect your fellow neighbour with the human dignity they deserve, but it doesn't mean that you agree with their choices. Actually this is also taught in the Bible. Acceptance means that you not only tolerate your neighbour regardless of their life choices, but you also fully agree and endorse what they do. Tolerance is something we should all be doing, we shouldn't need people or institutions trying to tell us this. Acceptance is however a personal choice, and CANNOT be forced upon us. There are institutions who, through media pressure and lawsuits, are trying to force us all to fully endorse their beliefs, and let us suffer punishment or persecution if we don't agree with them. This is the "agenda" that certain of us are trying to talk about. And this is what these institutions do, be they GLBT activists or for something else. Do you think that what they are doing is right? Looking at America, the ACLU is hellbent on forcing religion out of schools 100%, like to teach that Atheism is correct and all religions are stupid? Or NAAMBLA, who is using the "minority persecution" card to lower the age of consent to 12? Tolerance v Acceptance. To relativate it for you. If you believe that red is red, and there is a movement who believe red is blue. Will you accept that red is blue? and would it be right for you to be FORCED to accept red is blue, under threat of punishment?

      Rover_ZA - 2011-05-04 13:45

      @Matt I agree with your definitions mostly. I don't believe acceptance means you have to endorse or fully agree with a person's actions, rather that you are able to move on after finding out something you disagree with about that person/group, but rather that you don't discriminate against the person. Denying services based on sexual orientation is discrimination. "This is the "agenda" that certain of us are trying to talk about. And this is what these institutions do, be they GLBT activists or for something else." - This is a generalisation that is no different to any other statement made about an entire group. "Do you think that what they are doing is right?" - I don't believe that asking or pushing for something you want can be considered illegal, provided you go through the proper channels. They put their case before a judge who decides. That is a right we all share. How would women have ever gained their equal rights if this wasn't allowed? Are you arguing they should not have this right? Surely, it's the judge's responsibility to issue the correct verdict. The red/blue question is irrelevant as it presents the argument as one of fact vs fiction, whereas the actual issue is one of opinion vs opinion. Let me propose the flip side of that coin. If you believed the earth was flat, and there was a movement believing that it was round, would you stick to your view based simply on the fact that you are unable to accept change/new information?

      Matt - 2011-05-04 15:41

      @Matt "I agree with your definitions mostly. I don't believe acceptance means you have to endorse or fully agree with a person's actions, rather that you are able to move on after finding out something you disagree with about that person/group, but rather that you don't discriminate against the person. Denying services based on sexual orientation is discrimination." I agree - that is tolerance! Which differs from acceptance. "I don't believe that asking or pushing for something you want can be considered illegal, provided you go through the proper channels. They put their case before a judge who decides. That is a right we all share. How would women have ever gained their equal rights if this wasn't allowed? Are you arguing they should not have this right? Surely, it's the judge's responsibility to issue the correct verdict." That's my point. In an environment with freedom of speech/thought, you should be able do decide for yourself what you accept. If you have a view on something, would you be happy to have that view outlawed, quashed, because a group went to court and won favour with the judge? "The red/blue question is irrelevant as it presents the argument as one of fact vs fiction." I was trying to simplify the issue above in a way where nobody can attach emotion to the question.

      Matt - 2011-05-04 15:48

      @ Cerveza. Sorry, ran out of space. "If you believed the earth was flat, and there was a movement believing that it was round, would you stick to your view based simply on the fact that you are unable to accept change/new information?" That is a different issue! That is not a case of people changing their views based on new information. The information was there to start with in the Bible; it was the RC Church in Europe that banned the reading of the Bible for almost 1000 years, so nobody had the ability to know the truth. The Bible states clearly that the earth is round. So, that was not a case of someone having a new view on life and people must tolerate or accept it; that was an issue of the authorities withholding information and people being able to access the information. It's easy to use the "flat earth" example as a way of showing how "dumb" Christians can be; just remember that this resulted from a regime that deliberately distorted truths and denied its people freedom of speech and freedom of thought and it took a reformation and virtual EU-wide revolution in order for people to read for the first time in centuries, and then saw "hey, we were lied to, the earth is round".

  • Jabulani - 2011-05-04 01:57

    Violence, murder and rape against any person should be stopped. Under the law we should all be protected the same. I also think that gay-activists are trying to prevent people to be outspoken about their lifestyle. It seems that your public denouncement of a gay lifestyle will become a hatecrime in itself. This will be a blow to freedom of speech. Especially in a country where the majority of people do not agree with gay-lifestyles.

      Stefanus - 2011-05-04 07:39

      @Jabulani Just because the majority of people don't agree with it doesn't mean they're right. The majority of Germans believed Hitler was right (back in the day). The majority of whites believed apartheid was right (back in the day). So don't think numbers mean anything. In fact did you know the IQ of a group of people is lower than the individuals?

      SPHONZA - 2011-05-04 08:37

      Jabulani you are a piece of sh*t.

      Matt - 2011-05-04 12:11

      @ Stefanus - you are right. Majority opinion means nothing and is often wrong. Sadly, this is what democracy is based on - majority opinion. but then again, no political system is perfect.

  • paulf - 2011-05-04 06:18

    As we celebrate our 17th year of freedom, one can’t help but wonder if this is the South Africa that so many of us wanted and voted for? To those who were not part of the struggle for freedom, you might not understand the painful joy that filled South Africans on 27 April 1994. Freedom Day is a day when all South Africans are reminded of the pain, struggle and anguish that occurred as a result of colonialism and oppression. It is a day when we were set free from the historical ties of domination by the “white man”. Almost 20 million South Africans queued to take part in the country’s first free and democratic elections on that day in 1994. It was the first non-racial election to take place in South Africa, finally setting its citizens free from colonialism. On Freedom Day we commemorate the heroes and heroines who shed blood and lost lives making South Africa a country for all, where we all live in harmony irrespective of our race, nationality, sex, creed or sexual orientation. Freedom Day is meant to remind us that South Africans are “one people with one destiny.” But is this true? Are we as South Africans all free when people still live each day in fear of being violated, where citizens live in poverty and without jobs, where women fight to be heard and represented and where gays and lesbians are raped and murdered? Is this a South Africa we voted for? We have come a long way in a short time but freedom should mean much more. Freedom should mean emancipation from poverty, unemployment, racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination. Freedom should mean a better life for all. Abahlali baseMjondolo, an intellectual movement formed in 2005 in Durban, reminds us that “there are many South Africans who feel like the freedom they are meant to have is a cruel joke which attempts to gloss over the true social concerns of citizens. “This day actually reminds us how un-free we are. All South Africans may be officially free to vote in government elections, but why vote for a system that ignores your human need?” The Gini index ranks global inequalities of wealth and has consistently ranked South Africa as one of the most unequal nations on the planet. The gap between rich and poor is not shrinking. And through all the successes that South Africa has witnessed and continues to celebrate, gender inequality remains a major problem. Women and men do not receive the same treatment and acknowledgement in the corporate world and in the societies they belong to. There is a gap that still needs to be filled in order for women to say “we are free from oppression and discrimination”. South Africa is at the top of the list of countries where violence against women is the most extreme and common. Recent Gender Links research in Gauteng found that three quarters of men have admitted to perpetrating violence against women in their lifetime – many of them have raped women more than once. When can we celebrate a day where we will be freed from this violence and celebrate equal rights for all? How will true liberty ever reach our soil? My father used to recite a poem by Charles Osgood that was a bit silly but also thought-provoking. “There was an important job to be done and Everybody was asked to do it. But Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did. Somebody got angry about that, because it was Everybody's job. Everybody thought Anybody could do it, but Nobody realised that Everybody wouldn't do it. It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.” Change begins with you. It is time we stop putting responsibility on others and instead begin trying to make a difference within our societies. There are some inspiring examples of this. Women and men are fighting for change today, all across the Middle East. Our own example may be the most inspiring. There is no easy road to freedom, Nelson Mandela said in his speech. As we celebrate South Africa’s 17th year of freedom let’s keep in mind that some of us are still fighting a battle to be free. Until that battle is won, none of us have truly seen freedom.

  • Stefanus - 2011-05-04 07:23

    This is disgusting. How can people do this to one another???!!!!

      Smaal - 2011-05-04 08:01

      Culture.

      Koos - 2011-05-04 16:38

      Smaal it not culture to murder someone or rape cos she is lesbian,its just that its unheard of Black African being gay and lesbian some people think that its not part of our culture to be homosexual cos we grow up in the areas where there was no gays or lesbian,we believe that its was part of white culture the homosexuality but not blacks african

  • slg - 2011-05-04 08:21

    And they're black. After living through the injustices of Apartheid, to do this to someone because they are gay is almost inconceivable.

  • anthro45@24.com - 2011-05-04 08:59

    Homosexuals must be stamped out. Finish en klaar.

      jakkals - 2011-05-04 09:28

      I'm detecting a closet case in here...

      Stefanus - 2011-05-04 10:59

      Anthro stupid people like yourself should be deleted. Finish en klaar.

  • Rover_ZA - 2011-05-04 09:18

    Dear attackers, How could you do this to another person?! How could you be so arrogant as to believe that based on your EXTREMELY limited experiences as a person, your lifestyle is correct to the exclusion of others? Do you not realise how many of the things in your own life would be deemed as unacceptable/justifiable of violent action through another set of eyes? Should you too be killed because someone disagrees with your lifestyle?

  • Naraku - 2011-05-04 10:47

    "Men" aren't threatened by lesbians. Only cavemen are. Cavemen did this.

  • Monica - 2011-05-04 10:59

    You you stop saying 1 in 4 men in South Africa has committed rape! Your survey was done amongst black people; I still have record of the article! Your minister of Correctional Services should stop going overseas on spending sprees and send these rapist and murderers to Robben Island to go and take care of themselves! Get your law in order in this country and bring back the death penalty. Crime does not know the difference between race or sexuality! Straight men are being raped in jail. Police men rape people in their offices. If you employ criminals; crime will never stop! You give them access to guns and corruption!

  • Matt - 2011-05-04 11:15

    @ Cerveza. The Word is not outdated; people just change what they consider to be right and wrong. @ Christian Herbst - I can imagine the torment you must have suffered beign a gay Christian and I respect your right to choose the way you live your life. It is still wrong though. I know there are "gay churches" and as an active researcher of religion, these churches are not following the Word of God. Deo Gloria for example has some bad roots! Myth - homosexuality is only condemned in the Old Testament. Truth - Read Romans 1:26 onwards. Not in the NIV, that was translated with hidden agendas and deleted the verses. Preferably the KJV. It is VERY detailed. Myth - the Bible doesn't say why Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. Truth - read Genesis 19, it is extremely clear why. Also read 1 Corinthians 6:9. God created Man and Woman differently; it is the clear intention throughout the Bible that Man and Woman be united and become one. Look, God loves you infinitely, and we as Christians should love you as we love ourselves, but it is still wrong, and for the result see 1 Cor 6:9-10. The modern world may say it's OK - tell me about it, I grew up in Holland - but that doesn't make it right. Majority opinion counts for nothing; if it did, the Jews would never have left Egypt, many times in the wilderness they said they wanted to return! But let nobody judge you, remember they have no right to, it is your life to lead, nobody else's. God be with you!

      Stefanus - 2011-05-04 11:25

      Matt no everyone believes in your bible. So how can it be wrong if I don't believe in any of it in the first place? I might no agree with the way you as a Christian leads your life. I might not agree with the way you try to convert others, how your religion has been behind bloodshed and wars through the centuries. But let nobody judge you, remember they have no right to, it is your life to lead, nobody else's. God be with you!

      Matt - 2011-05-04 11:44

      @ Stefanus. How much history do you know? Well let's see. The bloodshed would be the Crusades (1000 years ago, when Europe was Catholic - not Christian) and the Inquisition (500 years ago, Catholics murdering Protestants and non-believers). The reason your white self is living in SA is because the Protestant Huguenots fled Catholic persecution in Holland, Belgium and France. In contrast, atheism/humanism/evolution has resulted in Hitler killing up to 100 million people with his idea that certain races are not evolved; Stalin killed up to 60 million people while bragging that killing a million people is like mowing the lawn (according to evolution theory that's perfectly correct); Mao Tse Tung killed 70 million people; Pol Pot killed a third of Cambodia's population. All were humanists who loved the evolution theory. In the case of communist countries, the very first thing they taught in schools was atheism and evolution. Oh, and let me also add the +/- 1 BILLION abortions that are now commonplace because people consider unborn children to be just foetuses, again thanks to atheistic thinking. And yeah, not everyone believes the Bible. I'm sure many haven't even bothered trying either. Have you? But every major religion has an absolute - that is, rules on how you should live. What are your rules? Atheists say there are no absolutes; are you absolutely sure? Hmm. So where do your morals come from? Why do you find murder wrong? Here's a clue. Thus saith the LORD...

      cerveza - 2011-05-04 12:46

      @Matt - who said the following phrases? "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice" "Always before god and the world the stronger has the right to carry through what he wills." "As Fuehrer of the German people and Chancellor of the Reich, I can thank God at this moment that he has so wonderfully blessed us in our hard struggle for what is our right, and beg Him that we and all other nations may find the right way, so that not only the German people but all Europe may once more be granted the blessing of peace." and if you think the "Word" is not outdated, do you believe in 1. slavery 2. Female inferiourity 3. Wife kidnapping 4. Death penalty for disobedient children? Please don't force your outdated views on us, the world has moved forward, Christianity has moved forward, yet you still live in the past

      Matt - 2011-05-04 12:59

      @Cerveza - I know who said that. Do you also know the same person said "I regard Christianity as the biggest lie that ever existed"? I'm sure you didn't know that... he used God to push his evil agenda, just like many persidents around the world. If JZ says that voting ANC will get you to heaven, is God wrong or is JZ wrong? "and if you think the "Word" is not outdated, do you believe in " Read the Word properly. Points 1 and 4 were laws required at the time. All the time, the Bible tells of God's compassion, which Jesus fulfilled. That's why Christians are generally compassionate. As for wife kidnapping, do tell me more?! As for female inferiority, you're putting words into mouths. As the Bible says the wife must reverence her husband, it says the husband must die for her if need be. The Biblical idea of man-woman relationships is like a car's engine and fuel. The engine is the main part, but is useless without fuel. Women who decide to live in this manner often write that they feel MORE valued and liberated. To give you an example - if you and a woman are at a door, open it and close it, let her do it herself. That's emancipation. Possibly right, but nobody would like that! Or maybe have same-gender lavatories, if we are equal. Maryland is actually trying to enforce that. Hmm what would happen then?

      Matt - 2011-05-04 13:09

      @ Cerveza: "Please don't force your outdated views on us, the world has moved forward, Christianity has moved forward, yet you still live in the past" Let's see. The world has moved forward. So, as religious influence declines in favour of humanistic ways; divorce, suicide, teen pregnancies, STIs, crime, abortion, have all skyrocketed. WHAT PROGRESS. Kids getting taught at schools they're evolved animals whose common heritage is an earthworm, then people are bewildered when some shoot kids at school while wearing a "natural selection" t-shirt. Yes, modernity is SO brilliant... and as for Christians moving forward, er according to whom? I think your idea of Christianity moving forward is when a believer rejects his/her values in favour of yours. That's not Christians moving forward - that's compromise and denial of the Word. And that is what directly caused Europe to be in the Dark Ages for 1000 years - incorporating pagan beliefs into the RC church's doctrine, allowing it to become a monster before - thank the Lord - the Reformation came. Just a quick point - I would never want to force the Bible onto you (which the Bible actually says is wrong!), it's your choice. But atheists make HUGE mistakes when it comes to their "knowledge" of Christianity and indeed their own beliefs. At least research it before you comment on it. you'd be stunned by how wrong the myths are. And a fairytale book? It contains more science than most textbooks. Outdated? It's all relevant TODAY.

      cerveza - 2011-05-04 14:06

      @Matt - I know Hitler used God to push his agendas onto the people, you are doing the same, i was hoping you see the resemblance of using gods name and bible quotes to push your viewpoint on others. Please explain to me why are "teen pregnancies, STIs, crime, abortion" all lower in countries with a higher percentage of atheists like in Scandinavia but higher in the US and UK with a very high percentage of christens and big government and religion integration. And as for Christians moving forward, where in the bible are you allowed to eat pork, how many Christians still own slaves, how many churches openly condemn homosexuals, how many woman are still forced to wear a hat in church and cover her neck when in public? How many different christian churches are there, if the did not move forward and or evolved, shouldn't there be only one church? And here is your quote on wife kidnapping, I assumed someone as self righteous and pretentious as you will know his bible better Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards. And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin. And it shall be, when their fathers or their brethren come unto us to complain, that we will say unto them, Be favourable unto them for our sakes: because we reserved not to each man his wife in the war: for ye did not give unto them at this time, that ye should be guilty. And the children of Benjamin did so, and took them wives, according to their number, of them that danced, whom they caught

      Matt - 2011-05-04 16:01

      @ Cerveza. Firstly, where in the Bible is that - chapter and number? "I know Hitler used God to push his agendas onto the people, you are doing the same, i was hoping you see the resemblance of using gods name and bible quotes to push your viewpoint on others." How the heck can you compare me to Hitler? Hitler pushed an evolutionist, humanist (aka atheist) order and used the name of God to win backing. Honestly, I know atheists will say anything to shut up a believer but this is low. Tell me, if I posted a quote that directly says ABC, it is to say "look at ABC". Cults take certain quotes and twist them; I gave references that could not be twisted by anyone. Please explain to me why are "teen pregnancies, STIs, crime, abortion" all lower in countries with a higher percentage of atheists like in Scandinavia but higher in the US and UK with a very high percentage of christens and big government and religion integration. Actually, I was thinking of how, in the USA, humanism/evolution was introduced into schools in 1963 and suddenly the increase went up 100s of %. As for UK, officially Christian but believe me, most are atheist and believers are considered freaks. I should know, I come from there!

      Matt - 2011-05-04 16:12

      @ Cerveza - Sorry, ran out of space... "And as for Christians moving forward, where in the bible are you allowed to eat pork, how many Christians still own slaves, how many churches openly condemn homosexuals, how many woman are still forced to wear a hat in church and cover her neck when in public?" Pork - I'm actually researching that and am on a pork moratorium :-) refer to Acts 10:10-15 though. Slaves - to my knowledge countries outlawed that ages ago. I'm sure you'll tell me where though. Openly condemning homosexuals - ah. Let me get this straight. The Bible says "do not do this". People do it anyway. Believers say "you were told, do not do this". People don't listen. Believers say "it still says, do not do this". Now the believers are labelled as bigots. So be it - the Word of God is there and will never change, so if you don't agree, that's your decision - the Word of God is definite. Fight it, hate it, complain about it, reject it, it will not change. Changing the Word to make the world happy is virtually the ultimate sin! Women wearing hats and covering their necks. Aww, what is wrong with that? My wife has never worn a hat to church, though strictly speaking I guess she should. Is it really so wrong for a woman to wear a hat? Or should we just all become atheists, where morals come from out of nowhere, where there is no God to answer to and therefore, no sin, we decide what is right in our own eyes. So rather women wear tight pants, revealing tops, if that?

      cerveza - 2011-05-04 16:33

      @Matt - you failed to show where eating pork is allowed in the bible, you have also failed to answer on how many christians owns slaved, where woman rights come from and why there are so many different churches as for comparing you to hitler, I just compared your methods, but I guess you see what you want to see here is your bible passage, I suggest read your bible more as you clearly only have a few favourite passages and do not care for the "whole word" http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges+21&version=NIV "From 1986 to 2006, the proportion of teenage pregnancies ending in abortion declined almost one-third, from 46% to 32% of pregnancies among 15–19-year-olds Between 1988 and 2000, teenage pregnancy rates declined in every state, and between 2000 and 2005, they fell in every state except North Dakota." North Dakota has the highest percentage of christians of all states in the USA You will also find the highest percentage of teen pregnancies in the USA occur in the "bible belt" so your theory is wrong and don't feel so sorry for yourself because you are from the UK, I don't consider them freaks, I also have no problem with any religion, just with extremists like yourself

      cerveza - 2011-05-04 18:26

      @Matt - sorry, when I started writing my reply your last post was not visible yet The fact that you had to do research to see where in the bible it allows you to eat pork, yet you know where it says homosexuality is wrong, shows that you care more about other people's sexual preferences that you care about what you eat. It also exposes you for using the bible to confirm your own feelings about gay people. the fact that you also did the effort to research pork but not bride kidnapping, shows what you are willing to learn about the "word" and what you prefer to ignore, again showing you put your view before the "word" As for slavery, christions considered it normal and their right for 18 centuries and then some independent christians and church groups started seeing it as wrong, and in most countries the churches changed their mind 1st and forced government to comply with their "evolved opinions". Their morals evolved, how is that possible if they did not read in a book or heard it from a burning bush? Unless morals are not only from the bible, but from society and the bible is merely just one of the many tools a society can use to communicate morals

  • Matt - 2011-05-04 11:19

    Two things. 1) Nothing, let alone this woman's choices in life, warrant murder. It's absolutely disgusting and her loved ones must be going through hell right now. Even if people have an issue with another person's life choices, there is no justification to attack, violate or murder them. May these evildoers be found and have the book thrown at them. 2) Going through the posts, people are writing about farm murders and turning this into a racial thing. People, what's wrong with you? This story has nothing to do with farms or race whatsoever. Shame on you!

      Stefanus - 2011-05-04 11:30

      Matt this is also not a place for your to share your anti gay religious views. Do you honestly think if this woman's parents were reading these posts they would want to read bible versus?

      Matt - 2011-05-04 11:49

      @ Stefanus - I have said that I do not agree with homosexuality, I have given a few Bible quotes - it's my RIGHT to do so. Don't try to shut me up. If you don't agree, that's your right too. If you had read my posts carefully, I keep on saying that I respect people's right to choose their lifestyles and that Christians (at least!) should love their fellow humans no matter what they choose to do. But atheists often tend to ignore when theistic people say such things. If this woman's parents were reading this, I don't think they would want to read filth as spouted by eg. Ares. Of course, neither you nor I know the parents, so neither you or I are able to know what the parents are thinking or would like to read.

      Stefanus - 2011-05-04 15:02

      I have actually read the bible. And I want my money back. This story is about a woman who was tortured to death. It is NOT a place to try and convert people. What you are doing is hijacking a tragic story for your own agenda. Shame on you.

      Matt - 2011-05-04 15:56

      @ Stefanus - so let me summarise. Right from the beginning of the comments, Christians and Muslims were being attacked despite the story not mentioning any religious motive. When giving defense from a Christian view, it results in more anti-Christianity. When still defending it, now it's "shame on me". How about "shame on those who instantly target a religion"?

  • Koos - 2011-05-04 16:50

    Medical Research Council is fu**in wrong, i know lof of people who never forced anyone to have sex with them this is absolute bullshite, none of my family ever rape anyone and my neighbor ever rape anyone this research are so misleading, if you rape you will be killed in areas i have lived and where do they find this Rapist,why they didn't call the police and investigate if that is true or go and meet those victim of rape, they never ask anyone i know, so where do they do this research.

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