News24

Farmer dies in police stand-off

2011-01-23 22:43

Pietermaritzburg - In a series of events resembling a Hollywood film, a man was shot and killed in his farmhouse after he had been involved in a four-and-a-half-hour-long stand-off with police.

A police report stated that Kobus de Vries, 54, was shot in the neck and that it is unclear at this stage whether the bullet that killed him was fired by a police officer or if he resorted to suicide.

The incident in Babanango, northern KwaZulu-Natal, happened on Thursday  the same day the fugitive French couple died on a farm at Sutherland following a week-long search after they shot and killed a policeman.

Police spokesperson Brigadier Phindile Radebe said police arrived at De Vries’s farmhouse to follow up on reports that he had been involved in several altercations and minor accidents, allegedly with Eskom workers, on his way home from town.

His family said he was unhappy over constant power black-outs on his farm.

“He had hit two vehicles with his vehicle before going home,” said Radebe. “The owner of one of the vehicles alerted police of the situation and his whereabouts.”

Back-up

Police went to the farm, but, Radebe said, before they even got out of the van they came under fire from the house and were forced to call for back-up. “… the officers couldn’t move and one of the police vans was damaged from (sic) the gunfire”.

Radebe said De Vries used a shotgun as well as a .303 rifle.

However, members of De Vries’s family have expressed doubts over the police’s version of what transpired.

“The allegation is that my brother was involved in two accidents on the way home, but it does not make sense as there was only a scrape on his car,” said De Vries’s brother, Thinus.

There is further confusion regarding the way that De Vries was shot, with his uncle, Phillip van Vuuren, 83, saying that De Vries was shot by a police bullet in the back while attempting to run back into his house.

“A worker was asked to convince him to come out with the promise that the police would not shoot if he surrendered,” explained Van Vuuren.

“When the farm worker walked out with him [De Vries] the police apparently started firing.”

'Very rich, happy'


The idea of suicide was further expelled by Thinus de Vries. “He was very rich and very happy; he would never commit suicide,” he said.

Radebe said that she had no knowledge of De Vries being asked to come out of the house. She confirmed that 19 firearms were found in De Vries’s house, which is likely to be explained by the fact that he was a passionate gunsmith.

Radebe added that De Vries was seen with a glass of liquid in his hand during the shootout, but could not confirm that he was drunk.

De Vries was returning from dropping his wife, Rentia, described as his childhood sweetheart, but whom he only married last year, at King Shaka airport.

Thinus de Vries added that members of the family, including Rentia, will be visiting the farm today (Monday) with two private detectives and a private pathologist to begin their own investigation into what happened.

An inquest has been opened into the cause of death.

Comments
  • josua.1989 - 2011-01-23 23:01

    strange times we live in....

      barry.mcbride - 2011-01-23 23:15

      Yes, very strange! I don’t quite know what to think about this story! I find it interesting that "De Vries was seen with a glass of liquid in his hand during the shootout" OMG

      Spyker - 2011-01-24 00:42

      Maybe it was a "shot glass"...

      allie - 2011-01-24 07:48

      Not even Clint Eastwood will drink while shooting.

      mornevanrensburg - 2011-01-24 08:02

      Sipho you idiot... Why would you bring race into this discussion again. Nobody said anything about black vs white in this article. Always the race-card!!! geezzz, it is really starting to get old now, seriously!!!

      Dave Norton - 2011-01-24 08:05

      Dewani, French couple and now this - Too many questions here. I think the police are out of control. We're headed for dark days ahead.

      vickyvgemert - 2011-01-24 08:26

      Does this siphovdmerwe creature click the like button on his comments himself (over and over)? or are there that many idiots agreeing with him?? 264 hits??? hallooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

      Totman - 2011-01-24 08:26

      Sipho. As I questioned the French case I question this as well. So get out of your victim status and rather join me in insisting that the whole incident get invested by a independed group. Maybe the police was correct in their actions, maybe not, but it is not clear and any party involved can't do the investigation. It can cause an one sided report.

      damascus - 2011-01-24 08:33

      @ Dave explain how the SAPS are being out of control with the Dewani murder and French couple shooting?? Clearly you have a different take on these two issues

      Para-gun - 2011-01-24 09:10

      And to think all he did wrong was bump somebodies car. Why is ESCOM so quite. They owe us some sort of comment

      SiphovdMerwe - 2011-01-24 12:49

      The first step in knowing that you've won an debate is when your adversaries misplace their cool, when they come across as having an utility-grade emotional quotient which propels them to an acute state of vexation. They then recourse to name calling and other forms of verbal insults. @mornevanrensburg, for the record, I am not the one hollering about genocide, so you better check yourself before you wreck yourself. So tell me who is playing the race card? I thought genocide was the systematic killing of people on the basis of race. Why makes you think you can play the race-card and I can't? No to say I played mine of course, I threw it away, don't need it no more.

      Counsellor - 2011-01-24 15:17

      Sipho...rather than attempting to sound intelligent with the use of vocabulary, why not first work at the basics (grammar)!! 'an debate'...'why makes you'????

      louwhan - 2011-01-24 16:28

      @siphovdmerwe Dear friend. I have stated this before but debating on internet forums is like the Special Olympics. Even if you win the argument, you still stay a retard. No offence to the mentally handicap.

      james4usa - 2011-01-24 22:24

      Sipho your sentence stucturing is appalling. I can only estimate your IQ. However according to my Bio Chemist with PHD in Nano Tech your DNA is within 3% of a Ocean Invertebrate. Now "misplace your cool" and call me a racist because you cannot refute a scientific fact.

      Howzitekse - 2011-01-24 23:07

      Shooting at the police is not a bright thing to do. Maybe the guy was stressed and snapped. Tragic. People who use this to say that this is some kind of plot against white people are sad, sick backward retards. The cops shoot people of all colours daily.

      SiphovdMerwe - 2011-01-25 08:47

      james4usa so my sentence structure is appalling, right? So says someone who holds a doctorate in "Nano Tech" but spells nanotechnology with two words. So says someone who spells a "PhD" with a capital "H". So says someone who says "a Ocean Invertebrate" instead of "an ocean invertebrate". "a" instead of "an", and ocean with a capital "O", invertebrate with a capital "I". My sentence structure is appalling, alright? This sentence structure earned me an Honours degree in Information Systems.

      Perfume - 2011-01-25 10:01

      @Sipho we can all do Google search hmmmmmm lol

      jacosmith69 - 2011-01-25 11:13

      And sipho, if the sophisticated white man never arrived with the language you are so confident with right now, the clothes you are wearing and so on, were would you have been today? It is quite easy to imitate, but to invent is something different. My cute little cockatoo is also great with imitation, but unfortunately he would never be able to invent something.

  • Christopher - 2011-01-23 23:19

    I would like to see someone holding a glass of liquid in his hand while firing a .303

      pietseanderpel - 2011-01-23 23:34

      0.303 and shotgun, neither weapons that can be fired accurately without proper technique. No way he was drinking and firing at the same time!

      Dan - 2011-01-24 00:48

      Yes true. The police will use anything to shift the blame and the courts in SA are so inconsistent that they might even believe it.

      Zion - 2011-01-24 07:35

      And I would like to see someone holding a glass while under siege.

      kevin - 2011-01-24 10:34

      Maybe he has 4 arms. Thinus de Vries added that members of the family, including Rentia, will be visiting the farm today (Monday) with two private detectives and a private pathologist to begin their own investigation into what happened. This is what every farm murder needs. Private Investigation

      Grant - 2011-01-24 11:21

      If it was a glass of alcohol, they would have SAID glass of alcohol. It was NOT alcohol, so they say "liquid, and cannot confirm if he was drunk", because they know perfectly well he wasnt!! The article may as well read "A group of armed black men approached the farmhouse shouting demands at the farmer. It cannot be confirmed if the men were police" See how easy it is to knowingly twist a story without actually lying!?

      Cire - 2011-01-24 11:45

      These bladdy agents will do anything to make the glorious police farce look good!

      GTFO - 2011-01-24 15:09

      Chuck norris can...

  • Johan - 2011-01-23 23:33

    The police also wants in on the farmer murdering action.

      Leica - 2011-01-23 23:49

      the police have been involved in farm murders for a very long time...been caught a few times and not they just do it openly. They openly declare war on the whites and farmers with all the stuff ive seen and heard the police are involved with.

      Dan - 2011-01-24 00:53

      Wait until a Pretoria Metro officer pulls you over - then you'll see real racial hate. The scary thing is you can believe anything you hear from cops lately. The truth about the Bees Roux incident will also never come out 100%. There will be one serious cover-up. I read all the articles, including the statements of the eye witness accross the road and I have no doubt in my mind what really went down

      Dave Norton - 2011-01-24 08:07

      Agreed Dan - 100% correct. I don't think (for once) that it is racially motivated. I think the cops are out of control.

      erictheclapton - 2011-01-24 08:43

      This is all part of the big picture. Police state here we come!

      GTFO - 2011-01-24 15:11

      its simple...use guerrilla tactics...IED, ambushes...soon no one will want to be a police man.

  • Nick van der Leek - 2011-01-23 23:48

    i hope this wasn't an opportunistic case of 'shoot to kill' because i'm a police officer and i have that option

      Ockert - 2011-01-24 07:24

      It wont work for you

  • Joe - 2011-01-24 00:08

    I smell a rat. A rat that smells like a cover-up, and if the Eskom tie-in is true, then I'd get the sleaziest low-life lawyer I could find to sue Eskom for their role in this farmer's frustration. This incident sounds to me like the eventual symptoms of New! South African frustrations.

  • Richard - 2011-01-24 00:27

    no one ever holds a glass of liquid in a shoot out! personaly even if i was drunk i'd want it near by, but 2 hands on my gun to hit my target.... also never heard of a farmer missing his target... 0 police hit.... mmmmm! maybe not their issue, but something is fishy!

      So What? - 2011-01-24 08:23

      Yup Richard, and he was a passionate gun smith - surely pretty good at setting a firearms sights then. This whole story sound flipping fishy as well. Wonder how well the scene was protected by the police after the shooting as well. They are pretty good at spoiling evidence at scenes and messing up evidence.

  • Staal_Burger - 2011-01-24 00:35

    Now is not a time to overreact but is there a pattern starting to develop here? At first the police was apathetic about the rural murders, of a certain ethnic group in SA, now they are actively participating. The family MUST get an independent investigation and sue the state bankrupt. The way the French thing was handled concerned me a great deal from the onset – then this...

      Ockert - 2011-01-24 07:27

      @siswe - he probably opened fire first and was not properly identified ??, it smacks of genocide --- both cases ---- any excuse now--- who are the main killers of farmers -- Police from Johannesburg -- with weapons in the Free State -- yes ?

      damascus - 2011-01-24 08:50

      if it was a white cop that was killed in sutherland the French couple shootings would have been okay, right Ockert??? or maybe you jus heard something else.

      hemant230778 - 2011-01-24 09:09

      @Damascus: It was a white cop killed in Sutherland!

      Bradley - 2011-01-24 09:46

      No. The cop was a non-white student cop. The white cop was injured. But then why does it matter what colour they were?

      tommo - 2011-01-24 09:51

      @ Ockert - that is such a knee jerk comment boet. Its far from genocide. That French couple shot and killed a rookie policeman. No matter which country you are in, the police will hunt you down for that, klaar. Not sure what the story is with this other farmer, but when so many guns are involved its never going to end well. Not a good idea to walk out of a house at night with a gun in hand while cops are waiting with pistols loaded anyway.

      damascus - 2011-01-24 11:29

      Tsietsi Jacob Boleme doesn't sound white to me, hemant230778. comment on things you know about or just don't say anything at all (the latter is a great option for you)

      Staal_Burger - 2011-01-24 13:55

      Sizwe, My argument re the ‘French’ matter is: during the final week of this case, a policeman was shot dead in Durban. It hardly received any attention – eg I did not see a force of 85, with military combat weapons, helicopter, aeroplane and the use of leading edge equipment, in that case... Surely all cop killings should be treated equal? Why does the killing of one cop (wrong as it is) receive military style attention – while the other is basically forgotten about..?? I am devil’s advocate here: Sizwe - how do you refute claims that the police is on WHITE MURDER SPREE..?? I would appreciate your response.

  • Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 00:43

    I personally believe, from own experience, that the police provoked him, it got out of hand and they shot him. Lately the police operate like gangsters. The law on their side ofcourse. If the police was using their standard sidearm, which is a 9mm Z88, SP1 or Star, they had to be within the effective range of a 9mm pistol which is 50m. If he really was holding a .303 (asuming he knew they were coming) he could effectively shot at 800m depending on the terrain. The truth will not come out on this one.

      Sizwe - 2011-01-24 01:50

      Perhaps that explains the call for back up! You forget that patrol vans have to have atleast one R5 rifle when they go on patrol. Your theory does not hold.

      Big Mouth - 2011-01-24 06:01

      Mind your manners, son. Wait till a cop saves you, then change your tune.

      Big Mouth - 2011-01-24 06:03

      Oops, sorry, I commented on the wrong er...comment. This one was for Ludicrous below.

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 07:17

      Sizwe, I don't see anywhere that they were on patrol. Your theory does not hold.

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 07:19

      And if there was 1 patrol van, meaning 2 cops that would be 2 pistols and 1 R5 rifle and still call backup? Do they get any training at all?

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 07:28

      http://www.jokes24.co.za/pictures/more/43357_SAPS-In-Training.htm

      Ockert - 2011-01-24 07:28

      Obviously - and they lie through their teeth - who's to contradict ?

      molefeP - 2011-01-24 07:44

      @Sizwe, FIY a R5's 5.62mm is only effective up to 300M. And then only in the hands of a very good shot. Even a Legacy rifle like the .303 (&.62mm) has almost 3 times the effective range. So Kleinjan is at least part right.

      Billyboep - 2011-01-24 08:07

      Kleinjan, in the hands of a trained person a 9mm para can be used effectively up to 150m. I can hit a coke can at will beyond 100m and it will still penetrat a car door at that distance.

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 08:47

      Thanks for you inputs. A little bit off topic but a R5 rifle has a caliber of 5,56mm and a .303 in mm would be 7,69mm. Billyboep, I am currently a platoon weapons and company support weapon instructor in the army. I am also compete in the annual International Military Skills competition which include different tables on the pistol range. You will NOT be effective with a 9mm at 150m. Take note, 150m is half the effective range of an R4 rifle which is 300m (perfect conditions, no wind, no mirages and good ammo). I know my subject. Not fighting, just giving the facts.

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 08:49

      (Excuse all the spelling mistakes. Difficult Monday morning)

      Mikemcc - 2011-01-24 16:02

      @Billyboep, what size fish do you catch?

      jean.dutoit - 2011-01-24 18:56

      @Kleinjan: That's just sad. Our (inferior?) copy of the Israeli Galil only has an effective range of 300 metres??? A modern assault rifle such as the H&K G36 has an effective range of up to 800 metres. I guess we shouldn't take on the Germans on the plains of the Free State then... :-D

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 22:53

      jean.dutoit, Good point there. What makes the R4 quite cool is that it's a very tough weapon and low maintenance. Except for faulty magazines it rarely jams. The piston group, rotary breechblock system, and all other moving parts is very simular to the AK-47. The big differences is the rifling, gas port system and the grain of bullets you use. Also keep into consideration that the Galil ARM from which the R4 was preduced under license, came into service in 1972. The H&K G36 came into service in 1997. A 25 Year difference in technology! Makes you think! The standard LMG of the German Army in 1914-1918 was the MG08. In 1934 they introduced the MG34. So they had a 26 year difference and I don't think I have to tell you the difference! To summarise, I agree, I have tons of respect for German weapons, the finest in the world.

      jean.dutoit - 2011-01-25 07:34

      @Kleinjan: In all seriousness, the Galil was probably the most logical choice as a replacement for the aging FN FAL. As you've said, it's a solid and reliable assault rifle, that can take a beating in the African bush, and keep on ticking. On a side note, I think it's a crying shame the CR21 never achieved any success.

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-26 09:33

      The CR21 is basically a bullpup R4. Like re inventing the wheel, but just putting a different, more fancy rim on it.

  • Dan - 2011-01-24 00:46

    Sounds very fishy again. Do you really trust the police?

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 00:56

      Not at all!

      Ettienne - 2011-01-24 06:50

      @Ludicrous. The name suits you well. Questions should be aimed at you! Did you pass grade 10? Making stupid comments such as yours, it seems you never got past grade 7, never mind grade 10. Idiot!!!!!

      Sylvia - 2011-01-24 08:46

      @Ettiene How rude for the chairman of the rinky dink UTASA towing association, an ex traffic cop. Hit a nerve did Ludicrous?

      ohsa.online - 2011-01-24 12:34

      Remember the old rhyme? SAP, SAP, Ons het almal Std Twee. Lately, even that Std Twee is probably falsified and obtained from the local Niggerian internet cafe' on the corner.

      Sharpzinto - 2011-01-24 17:42

      Yes I do. The men in uniform are superb. They must remove forcefully all criminals from our society.

  • Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 00:52

    Oh and the suicide part reminds me of that joke: "police found a man shot 69 times, stabbed 265 times, slit throat. They say it's the worst case of suicide they ever saw"

  • Dan - 2011-01-24 00:56

    The sad part of it all is that currently many people will rather not allow police on their property as you can never be sure "what" arrives on your property.

      Sizwe - 2011-01-24 01:48

      An innocent man has nothing to hide. You are making excuses for a serious offence, you do not shoot at people indiscriminately.

      Jan - 2011-01-24 03:04

      Sizwe how many "police" arrived at the doorstep of some old lady or farmer and end up raping them etc...

      Dan - 2011-01-24 06:33

      @ Sizwe. Exactly my point Sizwe. You don't shoot at people indiscriminately. There was evidently a very very good reason for someone to give a "rich & happy" life away by shooting at the police. Have you read news papers and seen statistics lately. Crime (serious crime) has infected the police force and you can never be assured of what in a police uniform arrives at your doorstep. You must agree, nothing in this story makes any sense - just like the Bees Roux case.

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 07:23

      Sizwe, I don't know you or your history but you make statements on no grounds what so ever. You are either a) a trainee constable or b)a guy who see only one side of a story c) has a cop as a family member.

      Will2.0 - 2011-01-24 08:59

      And what are your grounds for making your statements then Kleinjan?

      Willem - 2011-01-24 09:16

      Dan, some of these idiots will never have the i.q. to comprehend just what you are saying here...If you were ever deployed on riots in the 1980's, you will know what we are dealing with now - difference is, we are not trying to kill one another, but merely to survive... no "A-team-" and "Comrade-" factions among us...

  • FFS - 2011-01-24 01:04

    Enjoying the rainbow nation all? If you're white, get out if you can, while you still can.

      Great White - 2011-01-24 04:49

      If and when you finally get your passport, it will probably be stained with pap and chicken feet.

      Ettienne - 2011-01-24 08:28

      @ Great White. I am starting to wonder if this is not their method to try to keep people from leaving SA......I sure would not be surprised, seeing they have so many excuses.

      erictheclapton - 2011-01-24 08:46

      Just tell them you want to leave the country for good! You will have your passport the next morning! LOL

      damascus - 2011-01-24 08:54

      couldn't agree more the likes of you need to go

      maloya - 2011-01-24 09:12

      Ja well I say all those who want to leave the RSA should please do us all a favour and gooooooooooooo as they will only bring our country down...We need to grow & all the negtive forces should go to Aussieland or the UK...I LOVE RSA with its problms. In time things will get better.

      Juju se Pa - 2011-01-24 15:27

      Yeah, Maloya loves this country with all its problems. Especially, rape, murder, police killings, farm murders, assaults and corruption. Who knows, sometimes he might even join in the fun. He even believes that things will get better. Of course he is right, there will be more crime and in his mind that makes South Zimbabwe the greatest place to live. VIVA!!!

  • BigBrother24 - 2011-01-24 01:09

    The Family must now do their own independent detective work. The investgation must include the possibility of the farm changing ownership - and who the new owner is likely to be (to beee).

      Ockert - 2011-01-24 07:31

      That will be interesting

      somwest - 2011-01-24 14:12

      This is very true - most of the neighbouring farms already in BEE hands and no new trees planted - instead new owners allow squatters onto the properties - income and you do not have to farm!!

  • John Wilderness - 2011-01-24 01:15

    You shoot at police you deserve what you get.

      misterjakes - 2011-01-24 02:15

      Who shot first, though. With Cele's comments possibly being misinterpreted by half the country's semi-literate police officers they have possibly been given a license to do as they please. What will you do when a family member is shot by the police for no reason at all. Who is going to investigate and arrest the police officer when he claims that the other guy (now dead) person fired first?

      John Wilderness - 2011-01-24 05:10

      End of the day the idiot got what he deserved. For what ever reason you DO NOT raise a gun at police.

      BernieK - 2011-01-24 05:49

      I think that you are utterly naive John. But wait, just as with many liberals before, you'll wake up. You'll wake up when the police knocks on your door when you least expect it. First it is farm murders, then the 'police' or government's henchmen will pull you over or any other white citizen, then you'll understand. There is a pattern in things happening these days, not only with the recent happenings on farms but everywhere and I am not paranoid. Wake up before it is too late and read history. Read up about Germany, about Uganda, Rwanda, Bosnia, Iran, Argentina, Chile and many others and start understanding the heavy handedness of governments turning into police states. Watch this space....

      Great White - 2011-01-24 06:43

      Let's gather all the facts first, John. The fact that the family have hired independant investigators indicates that they have little faith in the current system or that they smell a rat in police clothing.

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 07:27

      John, you seem to be a cop?

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 07:28

      http://www.jokes24.co.za/pictures/more/43357_SAPS-In-Training.htm

      LawoftheJung - 2011-01-24 15:07

      @John Wilderness, Are you a South African citizen?

  • Leeutjie - 2011-01-24 01:32

    amazing, when a white man is murdered you wait an hour to get a cop there, if a whitie bumps (allegedly) a car in town you get cops and vans chasing him?? If this farmer started the shooting, he was stupid because that is asking to be shot.

      annie.kalahari - 2011-01-24 13:13

      It's well worth taking a look at the many whites being attacked/murdered and accused falsely of crimes ever since the World Cup 2010, when things really got out of hand really fast. http://www.farmitracker.com

  • misterjakes - 2011-01-24 02:20

    Let every single police official wear their police service numbers on their chests or on epaulettes in silver/white so that we can start a process of accountability. In the UK every police officer HAS to wear their numbers openly so that they can be identified by the station if there is a complaint against them. It is common sense! And if they wear a riot helmet then the number of the helmet is in bright neon orange so that they can check who signed the helmet out and hold the police officer to account if they act outside of the law or with brutality. Accountability, accountability, accountability!

  • Warren - 2011-01-24 02:25

    Over 3100 white farmers have been murdered since 1994. That is called genocide. All white people who are able to, should emigrate with great speed and efficiency.

      erictheclapton - 2011-01-24 08:50

      I wish I could bud. Looks like I will have to stay an fight!

      bekie - 2011-01-24 10:19

      Why are you still here?

      Xavier - 2011-01-24 12:28

      Yes warren, your right regarding the 3100 farmers been murdered, but wrong regarding the genocide, and since 1994 280 000 blacks were murdered. what point are you trying to make

      annie.kalahari - 2011-01-24 13:15

      The death toll of white farmers, and their family members - including even little girls who got shot through their heads execution-style - has now reached 3,776 deaths. http://censorbugbear-reports.blogspot.com and http://afrikaner-genocide-achives.blogspot.com are just several of the sites maintaining these archives - because the police won't.

      misterjakes - 2011-01-24 20:26

      I can guarantee you that the vast majority of the 280 000 (where is that figure from? And who funded the study?) blacks killed were not tortured like the vast majority of white farmers were. Desensitising by government + inaction to counter it = free reign to let the precedent continue. Fact that whites are tortured before being murdered points to hate. Irrational hate because the black are now in power. The blacks have democratic processes available to them so why do they still resort to racially motivated torture and murder? And those are only the farmers! what about the suburban whites murdered? as a percentage group of the population, the amount of whites killed would probably be much higher than the blacks. But hey, don't trust the study if the ANC is funding it...

  • Kaleidoscope - 2011-01-24 03:05

    Many holes in the story.

  • colin boolsenvorster - 2011-01-24 03:55

    What baffles the mind is that European South Africans actually even give any credibility to the police. The trajectory is so absolute and the police involvement in the genocidal slaughter of our people so irrefutable, that the police have to be considered in the light of Malema genocide speech. Take heed of the perverted genocidal writing on the wall and take action to defend yourself. These brutal racist attacks are orchestrated along the lines of "taxi speak" where genocide is openly contemplated by the masses. Genocide was Soviet / ANC policy in 1982 and just perhaps is so now. Protest this genocide and the laws that legislate Europeans out of the economy before the embassies of Europe in a civilized and non violent manner.It is only with recourse to European nations that relief can be achieved. This government is not in control and never was, the ANC created lost generation of the 1980's is the tail wagging the dog. My fear is the habit in Africa of blaming Europeans and not demographics. Sub Saharan African population statistics have gone from 120 million in 1950 to 840 million in 2000. The exponentially growing masses of the unemployable is a problem as political expediency will dictate the Europeans are targets for a failed government to escape the wrath of it's own electorate. Take heed beware, youtube - the songs they sing - and watch Mandela sing of genocide

      ebdg3000 - 2011-01-24 05:58

      That's a good question by John: who are the european South Africans?

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 07:32

      Are you serious with these 2 questions? He is refering to the black citizens of South Africa. They all decend from Europe. Didn't you know that?

  • colin boolsenvorster - 2011-01-24 03:59

    What baffles the mind is that European South Africans actually even give any credibility to the police. The trajectory is so absolute and the police involvement in the genocidal slaughter of our people so irrefutable, that the police have to be considered in the light of Malema genocide speech. Take heed of the perverted genocidal writing on the wall and take action to defend yourself. These brutal racist attacks are orchestrated along the lines of "taxi speak" where genocide is openly contemplated by the masses. Genocide was Soviet / ANC policy in 1982 and just perhaps is so now. Protest this genocide and the laws that legislate Europeans out of the economy before the embassies of Europe in a civilized and non violent manner.It is only with recourse to European nations that relief can be achieved. This government is not in control and never was, the ANC created lost generation of the 1980's is the tail wagging the dog. My fear is the habit in Africa of blaming Europeans and not demographics. Sub Saharan African population statistics have gone from 120 million in 1950 to 840 million in 2000. The exponentially growing masses of the unemployable is a problem as political expediency will dictate the Europeans are targets for a failed government to escape the wrath of it's own electorate. Take heed beware, youtube - the songs they sing - and watch Mandela sing of genocide

      Mattt - 2011-01-24 13:46

      ANC created "lost generation"??? Seriously? So the fact that the said generation had only every known institutionalized degradation and suppression has nothing to do with it? Or the systematic deconstruction of indigenous societal and economic structures and suppression of ecoomic growth within the western structures imposed thereafter? Suck my academeia fool...

  • ebdg3000 - 2011-01-24 05:53

    Now even the police are murdering farmers.

  • kevin.vandyk - 2011-01-24 05:53

    Anywhere in the world you shoot at police, they are going to shoot back. Not just South Africa. Simple as that. First thing to establish here is who shot first. Then the investigation can go from there. Simple logic. If he did shoot first, meanining he took the police by surprise who would just have been climbing out their vehicles, and didn't hit any of them with a shotgun, then you have to wonder about his state.

      Vernon - 2011-01-24 07:44

      How would anyone determine who shot first. Police do not have video cameras that are on in their patrol cars? So it is the police against this family, and we all know who will win. Such dramas in the past have successfully brought the perpetrator under control without the loss of life. Where is this skill now? It is easy to kill and then make the story up to suit yourself! I do not trust this situation at all. May the truth come out quickly.

      Totman - 2011-01-24 08:46

      Maybe he shoot to miss?. Lets assume that he could not aim properly, because of the assumed glass with the assume alcohol in it, why then just not wait a bit until he pass out? Seeing that he was still drinking.

  • Saamprater - 2011-01-24 05:56

    Another incident of police brutality and cover up. How can they justify shooting a man in cold blood because he maybe voiced his anger at Eskom's ineptness and most proberbly scraped their van when they stopped in the middle of the road (where no decent human being will stop, even if there are no traffic). Now he is dead, but I trust that the truth will prevail, while the anc is busy breeding a band of armed croocks and assasins with my taxmoney. Mugabes hell will look like nothing compared to what the anc is doing here'. They must be stopped at any and all cost.

      Kenko - 2011-02-19 09:37

      You are right here. It seems it went like this: 1)The farmer was upset about the many power outages. 2) When returning home, he found Eskom's incompetent new employess on his property. Some words and maybe insults were exchanged. 3) The farmer damaged his own, and Eskom's vehicles on his way home. 4) Eskom's employees phoned the police, who came in full force to arrest the farmer. 5) The farmer was not about to give in, and fired a warning shot. He later gave up and went outside with a worker at his side. 6) When he realized the police was about to shoot him, he turned and ran back to the house. 7) The police shot him in the back as he tried to get away. Fact is, Eskom should have charged him with damage to property, and did not have to get the police to go and arrest him. The police on their part, did nothing to solve the matter; they only went to kill another "aggressive" farmer. Simple as that.

  • Siphozoozoo - 2011-01-24 06:01

    This also sounds like police brutality. No word of a mediator being involved. Seems like the cops are using maximum force agianst civilians. They sould rather using this type of force against farm attackers and killers of elderly people. Or is it a case of cops are openly turning into farm attackers?

      Dumisani - 2011-01-24 08:09

      When you raise a gun at a police officer, you are no longer a civilian, you become a criminal. everybody has the right to defend themselves,including police officers. if i raised a gun at you......what would you do???

      erictheclapton - 2011-01-24 08:55

      @Dumisani: So if you are no longer a "civilian" then what are you? Are you trying to tell me that you no longer have rights? Isn't it the African way to have "rights" no matter what you have done? Isn't it your "right" to be a civilian?

      Dumisani - 2011-01-24 10:53

      @erictheclapton: it is the international way to have rights, regardless of what you have done. and its seem like you also believe in this very principal, because you see no wrong on the farmers side. for a situation to becomt a stand-off, it simply means there was active resistance (in this case: gun shots) from one of the parties, which resulted in the other party shooting back. If the police officers where there to simply kill the man, the would have not called for back-up. Racial issues are clouding your judgement. Question: if it was white police officers who gunned down this farmer, would your take on this issue be the same?????

      Juju se Pa - 2011-01-24 15:47

      Domisani, prove that he shot first. Whats that? You can't? Oh, I guess the police have the right to shoot to kill and then ask the questions, huh? Just like killing babies in cars because some a*sho*e policeman saw something that looked like a gun. These trigger happy "policeman" are criminals. We all know that. SHOUT IT FROM THE ROOF TOPS. No respect for "policeman"! Viva!!! Viva the new South Africa, where crime pays, just look at the ANC!! Viva Domisani, kill a White today for it is your right. No questions need be asked, just shoot, shoot, shoot and then say the White man was a raceest, drunk, who tried to rape your sistaa and had some guns lying around and therefore you shot in self-defense. Don't worry that you can't prove it Domisani, the police will back you up. So will every other black. Domisani, just for your information. Whites are starting to see the truth. It is getting harder and harder for the media to cover up. The ANC have been criminals from day one. The "police" are their hustlers, who are now acting on orders to kill, kill, kill. So, you can have this craphouse South Africa, just change the name will ya. Just be as "cruel" as Apartheid was and give us a White homeland, please? Oh, Domisani, please! Take your rights and shove em.... you know where!

      moiraine - 2011-01-24 23:24

      @dumisani Nowhere in the report does it say the race of the police. Or in fact the race of the farmer. The police spokesman has a surname of Radebe which is presumably black, we do not know if he was even there. The farmer has an Afrikaans surname so is probably either white or coloured, but those are all assumptions. Personally I dont think he should have shot at the police in the first place, but I also cannot see why he was shot in the back.

  • Ixian - 2011-01-24 06:27

    This is what happens when you have a Pimp as the Chief of Police. The war against "criminals" and the "shoot to kill" orders are turning the police force into a law of its own.

  • moongoddess2410 - 2011-01-24 06:35

    My dear friend, I will not carry on reading all the comments. No matter waht color or race you are, we need to understand one big thing here. Times are crazy and I am predicting it will get worse before it gets better. I had as well last week a similar issue with a worker and a knife and police giving the worker a "warning". I agree with all of you it is tough. But we need to make somehow a turn around here. We as a nation and we a beings living in this country and on earth. If we all carry on listening to the propaganda/brainwash coming from all over the place, we here will end up in a massive war. And it will be brother against brother. I do not have a solution, if I would I would scream it out. I am proudly South African and for me color doesn't matter. Maybe if compassion from all of us would come into play and see were the anger originates from and the fear. There is a saying, something like: the war stops with me. One has to stop . .we cannot go on like this. Underneath this skin, we all have blood which is red, we all have a heart . . . .think about it. And I hope and pray that SA will not end up in a bloody (as blood) war.

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 07:37

      Problem is "we as a nation" is probably 10% who want to change. The other 90% keep on voting for the same idiots over and over and over. Then they strike and burn down buildings cause the people for who they voted don't look after them. The way of Africa.

  • jiamalunga - 2011-01-24 06:36

    How can the Police not know if they Killed him. Are they noiw firing at anything that moves? What happened to aquire a target? Who goes gor suicide in the neck! Bloodu gunslining cowboys!

  • BigPig69 - 2011-01-24 06:37

    Funny how easy it is to sit on the sidelines and tell us how crap we are. To sit there and vomit all these nice words like useless, illiterate, corrupt, assisting in the murders and whatever other bull you can come up with. Yes there's bad apples in the police, but so is there in the farming community, lawyers, doctors and even the churches. You seem to forget it happens in all walks of life. So for those "brave" souls that like to make us all bad.... Come show some guts and come and do the work, show us how it must be done! Come and stand next to your friends grave that got killed to help those same ones that call him all these names. The same one that leaves behind a wife and kids that you do not give a crap for at a later stage. You make me sick. All you have is an half arsed article to base all your facts on and you believe it, suck it all in... Well stuff you and yours then. Next time you need help, phone your "brave" mate that's hiding under the bed when the crap hits the fan. You deserve that what comes to you

      jean.dutoit - 2011-01-24 08:06

      @BigPig69: I'm sorry to tell you this, but if you need help and you don't have a highly trained private security firm looking after you, you'd better be prepared to look after yourself. Where I live, the police will only respond to a call if and when you've killed one of their comrades. But I do agree with you on one point, you do deserve what comes to you. We don't live in a civilized country and if you don't protect yourself, no one else will.

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 08:54

      "Come and stand next to your friends grave that got killed to help those same ones that call him all these names" Respect. Cops knows very well that their lives are in constant danger. MANY MANY civilians stand next to their family and friends graves that got killed and who's lives SHOULD NEVER BE in constant danger. I feel much more sad for a dead civilian than a dead soldier. The soldier chose to do that line of work, the civilian not.

      misterjakes - 2011-01-24 20:43

      It's called transparency and accountability (here I go again) and in a DEMOCRACY, that is what the MEDIA does! It calls on those in power to be accountable. Thit is what happens in any functioning democratic state. And if these posters are racially biased, you are biased because of your career. I understand that a person will be sensitive about criticism levelled at their career. Keep in mind that in vast swathes of SA, the police are not as upstanding as you might be. And yes, I personally have been shot at, with military weapons and ordnance, more times than I can remember, by absolute believers in their respective causes who would gladly die if they could kill me or my comrades. Not 30 years ago. In the last 5 years. And yet (as an example of acting within democratic principles) we never thought about acting against the international laws of armed conflict (LOAC), taking advantage of prisoners or, forbid, executing them. There is NO excuse for legally armed enforcers of the law to step over the line of the law. Law breakers can not be law enforcers or lawmakers. Ever! It does not happen in well-functioning Western democratic states. That same state model that SA emulates. SAPS: lead by example, like real men of moral courage and leaders of character do. If you allow the small issues, it will snowball and every morally corrupt action will become acceptable. The term is 'endemic'.

  • BigPig69 - 2011-01-24 06:39

    Funny how easy it is to sit on the sidelines and tell us how crap we are. To sit there and vomit all these nice words like useless, illiterate, corrupt, assisting in the murders and whatever other bull you can come up with. Yes there's bad apples in the police, but so is there in the farming community, lawyers, doctors and even the churches. You seem to forget it happens in all walks of life. So for those "brave" souls that like to make us all bad.... Come show some guts and come and do the work, show us how it must be done! Come and stand next to your friends grave that got killed to help those same ones that call him all these names. The same one that leaves behind a wife and kids that you do not give a crap for at a later stage. You make me sick. All you have is an half arsed article to base all your facts on and you believe it, suck it all in... Well stuff you and yours then. Next time you need help, phone your "brave" mate that's hiding under the bed when the crap hits the fan. You deserve that what comes to you

      Willem - 2011-01-24 09:49

      So BigPig69: can you supply the facts - the REAL facts and nothing but the facts?

      misterjakes - 2011-01-24 20:51

      and yes, I have also carried the coffins of my friends. But that does not give anyone the right to drop to the level of moral cowardice where you justify your actions by using the 'moralometer' reading of the criminals. One should ALWAYS be able to have the moral high ground. Not the cowardly dead ground that is so easy to take.

  • steven.m.armour - 2011-01-24 06:42

    Something smells here.What is going on?

      Alan - 2011-01-24 07:21

      BigPig69 is what you're smelling

      gen.mewmew - 2011-01-24 08:16

      alan thats not nice. you are a lousy fellow man for saying such a thing

  • RemoteMedic - 2011-01-24 06:48

    Yeah the criminals aren't killing of the farmers fast enough so now the Police Force need to jump in as well.

      richard - 2011-01-24 07:16

      I think you hit the nail on the head.

      Gaina - 2011-01-24 07:37

      That sounds about right! Police chief said shoot to kill and now they are doing it.

  • Etienne - 2011-01-24 06:48

    Ok hang on! there were 19 firearms located at the farmhouse. But Mr de Vries chooses a .303 and a shotgun? This is bulls..t. Cover up for sure.

      misterjakes - 2011-01-24 20:55

      17 were probably 'replica' or airsoft weapons, like that 'huge cache' found the other day. haha!

  • BigPig69 - 2011-01-24 06:50

    Funny how easy it is to sit on the sidelines and tell us how crap we are. To sit there and vomit all these nice words like useless, illiterate, corrupt, assisting in the murders and whatever other bull you can come up with. Yes there's bad apples in the police, but so is there in the farming community, lawyers, doctors and even the churches. You seem to forget it happens in all walks of life. So for those "brave" souls that like to make us all bad.... Come show some guts and come and do the work, show us how it must be done! Come and stand next to your friends grave that got killed to help those same ones that call him all these names. The same one that leaves behind a wife and kids that you do not give a crap for at a later stage. You make me sick. All you have is an half arsed article to base all your facts on and you believe it, suck it all in... Well stuff you and yours then. Next time you need help, phone your "brave" mate that's hiding under the bed when the crap hits the fan. You deserve that what comes to you

      nuclear - 2011-01-24 13:32

      Thanks for getting across the other side of this story! Keep up the good work!

  • bokkie36 - 2011-01-24 07:05

    I hope I'm not exposing my ignorance, but how do you commit suicide by shooting yourself in the neck (by the sound of it from behind)?

  • Graham - 2011-01-24 07:05

    I am sure the State will be claiming This property.

  • Johnboy - 2011-01-24 07:07

    A gunsmith that chooses a .303 rifle to go to war with against the police? A glass in his hand while in a shoot out? I support the cops' strong-arm tactics, but now they have shot a man whose family has the means to take them on.

      richard - 2011-01-24 07:18

      If you're a farmer in this country, you need an arsenal to protect yourself.

  • Wow! - 2011-01-24 07:13

    Frankly this is a police conspiracy. We have the most corrupt Police force in the world and this is murder.

  • Alwyn - 2011-01-24 07:25

    I hope the ICD will investigate it the same way when a white cop shoots a black person.Secondly if he did fire at the cops it is justified,But....A glass in the hand ? ,no way he would be able to fire any type of rifle with one hand,sounds like unjustified killing

  • WPWW - 2011-01-24 07:34

    Yup same shit that went down in Sutherland, the french people were white and thats all the pigs needed to open fire. Who you gonna call, sure as hell not the SAP.

      watalife - 2011-01-24 07:47

      Pigs are trained to shoot the whites

      damascus - 2011-01-24 09:04

      look in the mirror and you will see who the real pig is. pale face moron

      Daniel - 2011-01-24 11:42

      Before you go off a tangent, De Vries was killed by White policemen, and the French couple also killed by White Policemen. Get your facts right.

      Harry - 2011-01-24 13:33

      Daniel and where did you get your "facts". Were you an eyewitness? Then please do tell.

  • moongoddess2410 - 2011-01-24 07:36

    My dear friend, I will not carry on reading all the comments. No matter what color or race you are, we need to understand one big thing here. Times are crazy and I am predicting it will get worse before it gets better. I had as well last week a similar issue with a worker and a knife and police giving the worker a "warning". I agree with all of you it is tough. But we need to make somehow a turn around here. We as a nation and we a beings living in this country and on earth. If we all carry on listening to the propaganda/brainwash coming from all over the place, we here will end up in a massive war. And it will be brother against brother. I do not have a solution, if I would I would scream it out. I am proudly South African and for me color doesn't matter. Maybe if compassion from all of us would come into play and see were the anger originates from and the fear. There is a saying, something like: the war stops with me. One has to stop . .we cannot go on like this. Underneath this skin, we all have blood which is red, we all have a heart . . . .think about it. And I hope and pray that SA will not end up in a bloody (as blood) war.

  • molefeP - 2011-01-24 07:40

    Second time in one week where it has to be investigated whether somebody was killed by the police or had suicided? Come on! Pull the other one! The so called Commisioner of Police is to blame with his shoot to kill policy! The Police are getting trigger happy!

      Picasso - 2011-01-24 10:00

      Yip, anyway, who commits suicide by shooting himself in the neck?

      SEMATSATSA - 2011-01-24 11:41

      Molefe u must be a criminal or have that sort of a mind.Is the COMMISIONER closing your market with a bullet promise?

  • kznsc - 2011-01-24 07:43

    I live on a farm in KZN, I have installed a security system with beams around my house. I have three large dogs that will not let anyone in least of all the security guy's. If i have trouble the security is here within five minutes and call the cops if they need back up. WHY dont other farmers protect themselves in the same way instead of engaging in shoot outs?

      nuclear - 2011-01-24 13:35

      Finally, I've been saying this for ages!

      misterjakes - 2011-01-24 20:57

      why should they if they pay taxes. Why else pay taxes if the primary function of a state is security? Not everyone can afford it, either.

      nuclear - 2011-01-25 23:00

      I pay taxes but also have to pay for ADT monthly, keep two huge dogs & a secure perimeter. Security is important, BUT relying on Govt for all your security is just plain DUMB!

  • Daniel - 2011-01-24 07:44

    Regardless of what actually happened here, and who was in the wrong, if your first reaction (like mine was) was to doubt the veracity of the police's account, it only refelcts in how deep trouble this country is. The breakdown of law and order and the perception of the police as part of the problem and not the solution is the harbinger of much chaos and continued crime.

      bokkie36 - 2011-01-24 08:27

      Amen to that, Daniel!

  • Mahlubandile - 2011-01-24 07:54

    It seems there are massive weapons in the South African farms, I wonder what is the agenda of these farmers. French couple was found with a lot of weapons in a farm and now this guy has been found with other weapons, I wonder that is motive. Strange times we live in indeed.

      Alwyn - 2011-01-24 07:58

      The reason for this is to defend themselves agains the bastards attacking them at night ,killing farmers for the fun while looting theis houses,and you ask such a shit question

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 09:06

      Mahlubandile, funny enough. Looking at your avatar you are clearly a communist, which is your right. Take note 1)communism and democracy don't mix 2)many MANY (MILLIONS)of those "massive weapons" comes from the non existing communist USSR (which party designed that emblem on your avatar)i.e. AK47's, Makarov's, Tokarev's, PPSH41's and all other "African weapons" (The prefered and widely available weapon to solve the entire Africa's conflicts, AK47) So please don't say anything about weapons on farms.

      Kleinjan - 2011-01-24 09:08

      Mahlubandile, funny enough. Looking at your avatar you are clearly a communist, which is your right. Take note 1)communism and democracy don't mix 2)many MANY (MILLIONS)of those "massive weapons" comes from the non existing communist USSR (which party designed that emblem on your avatar)i.e. AK47's, Makarov's, Tokarev's, PPSH41's and all other "African weapons" (The prefered and widely available weapon to solve the entire Africa's conflicts, AK47) So please don't say anything about weapons on farms.

      Johan - 2011-01-24 09:18

      I am reasonably sure there are more firearms in a small town taxi rank than all the commercial farming properties in South Africa combined. Something is certainly not right here, there was a comment prior about pointing a gun makes you a criminal, surely only a mere threat to another person's wellbeing let alone survival is sufficient grounds for self defence, who ever shot first, someone defended themselves in this situation, let us hope justice prevails on this one

      misterjakes - 2011-01-24 21:05

      'massive weapons' yeah. a few bolt-action hunting rifles...much more dangerous than the fully automatic assault rifles and explosives found in the townships. Oh, wait. Old overweight farmers are probably also running terrorist training camps like Jeff Masemola claims he is doing for APLA in East Africa. On his Facebook wall which is open source. You know, where he and his followers say how many whites and 'capitalists' they are going to kill. Incitement to genocide anyone? LOOK at the mounting discontent on the news sites and the blogs. Look at the discontent of people's facebook walls. On websites, political parties' sites, etc. Things are reaching a culmination point. It is worse than ever because the ANC's experiment, their chemical mixture of vastly different cultures (The Clash of Civilisations, (Samuel P. Huntington) anyone?)has turned volatile. Wake up and see that Europe's politics is moving centre-right (even Sweden now has one of these in power!). The world, and its sympathy for the black 'victims' in South Africa is turning its opinion against you. Not the doing of the whites, but the doing of the blacks.

  • stephanjvv - 2011-01-24 07:59

    It is time to get the United Nations involved in this genocide.

      nuclear - 2011-01-24 13:36

      Hahaha! You are funny!

  • mlh@24.com - 2011-01-24 08:01

    Trigger happy SAPS perhaps....? Trigger happy SA......? Disturbing story.....

  • diranp - 2011-01-24 08:04

    If the farmer opened fire first the police had all the right to shoot at him. However we have to get the facts,we don't know who's at fault here... The police could of been corrupt or the farmer lost his mind..

  • mlh@24.com - 2011-01-24 08:05

    Why arent the police CATCHING THE REAL CRIMINALS out there?!!!! The murderers and rapists...

      Ntanda - 2011-01-24 13:54

      "CATCHING THE REAL CRIMINALS out there?!!!!' and leavefarmers with massive explosives and ammunitons that can destry the whole location? u must be out of your mind.

      mlh@24.com - 2011-01-24 16:05

      An arms cache was found in KATLEHONG and in SUBURBS!!!!What are you actually getting at???? A N D the farmer was a 'passionate gunsmith' [gun collector..... in case you didnt know]. But then you probably would rather have the SAPS shoot innocent people than catch monsters who commit barbaric crimes - THE REAL CRIMINALS!!!!!!

      bvravest - 2011-01-25 15:38

      @ ntanta. "and leavefarmers with massive explosives and ammunitons that can destry the whole location?" where do you read about the massive explosives? couple of hunting rifles are hardly enough to destroy an entire location. more likely a bit of protection from the racist, thieving elements from the location.

  • nvledwaba - 2011-01-24 08:07

    19 guns????...wat was he doing with them...why did he open fire to the police?????.....i'm also confused, i'll wait for more feedback on this story

      Wonderboy - 2011-01-24 08:40

      Read the article. He was a gunsmith.

  • GBES - 2011-01-24 08:09

    19 Weapons..WTF !Why would anyone keep so many guns in their house ? Doomsday cultists ? Even a gunsmith knows these guns will attract criminals.Gen.Cele told the police to shoot,and his political statements will have many more people shot.

      annie.kalahari - 2011-01-24 13:04

      A gunsmith is a skilled person who is licensed to fix people's guns.He has licenses for all those guns and moreover the police knew that before they showed up on his farm under a false pretence. For the past two months the police have been raiding perfectly legal homes and businesses who had licensed guns on their premises. Why don't they raid the CRIMINALS with the illegal AK47s instead? Too scared of getting gunned down by those criminals... so to make themselves look good they target innocent white citizens who have legal guns for self-defence against the criminals making the country ungovernable...

      Juju se Pa - 2011-01-25 18:42

      @Annie Damn right, and then, just for good measure, they shoot the Whites and claim "self defense". F*ck man, do the ANC really think we haven't seen this all before. Every single communist state, ever in existence, has done the same. WAKE UP PEOPLE! The genocide has started. F*CK the ANC, F*CK the liberals that put them in power and F*ck everyone who isn't on your side. You either decide to fight back or you will eventually perish. It is the oldest game in the book of history. Them or us? Who do you want it to be?