News24

Mbeki: Threat to Africa's self-determination

2011-11-05 17:30

Johannesburg - Recent events in Libya should raise alarm bells about the threat to Africa's hard won right to self-determination, former president Thabo Mbeki said on Saturday.

Addressing the Law Society of the Northern Provinces in Sun City, Mbeki said it "seemed obvious" that a few powerful countries were seeking to use the council to pursue their selfish interests.

They were also determined to behave according to the principle and practice that "might is right" and to sideline the principle of self-determination.

"I must state this categorically that those who have sought to manufacture a particular outcome out of the conflict in Libya have propagated a poisonous canard aimed at discrediting African and AU opposition to the Libyan debacle."

He said this was done on the basis that the African Union and the rest of "us" had been "bought by Colonel Gaddafi with petro-dollars", and felt obliged to defend his continued misrule.

He said all known means of disinformation was being bandied about, including an argument that Gaddafi’s Libya had supported the ANC during the apartheid struggle.

Libya and the ANC

"The incontrovertible fact is that during this whole period, Libya did not give the ANC even one cent, did not train even one of our military combatants, and did not supply us with even one bullet.

"This is because Gaddafi’s Libya made the determination that the ANC was little more than an instrument of Zionist Israel, because we had among our leaders such outstanding patriots as the late Joe Slovo."

Mbeki said Libya's assistance to the ANC came after 1990, when it realised that the ANC was a genuine representative of the overwhelming majority of our people.

Assertions that the AU depended on Libyan money to ensure its survival were false and yet another fabrication.

"The [UN Security Council] Resolution [on a no-fly-zone] said nothing about regime change. However the fact of the matter is that the Nato actions had everything to do with the overthrow of the Gaddafi regime."

The AU had in fact adopted a roadmap for the negotiated resolution of the conflict in Libya.

'Ignoring the AU'

"To all intents and purposes the Security Council ignored the AU decision and later blocked the AU Panel on Libya from flying into the country to begin the process of mediating a peaceful resolution.

"Libya is an African country. In addition to this, in terms of international peace and security, the conflict in that country has impacted and will continue to impact directly and negatively on a number of African countries."

Despite this, the Security Council chose to ignore the AU, he said.

Comments
  • Hermann - 2011-11-05 17:43

    Was it not the majority who called for selfdetermination in Libya and friends(?) who came to assist them against an ogre. Thabo is again missing the boat, nice guy as he is and I got to know him during a previous career, not a bad guy, actually a very nice guy but he lives in an unrealistic past.

      Bigrp - 2011-11-05 17:52

      The problem is Herman, it was the West that interfered, and the West is evil and only did it for the oil...my problem with this continent is that they all hate the West, but the begging bowl is always there when speaking to the West!

      Hermann - 2011-11-05 18:32

      @bigrp Please convince me that the West started the Arab Spring. We in the west enjoy freedoms the Arab world knows not, but thanks to WESTERN technology via the internet the Arab world got the message of freedom. So now you blame the West for being the instigators of the freedom you enjoy by simply allowing you to comment on my statement. I do agree with you Africa is a begging bowl and for that we can blame the West, through all their philanthropic blind aid agencies they made Africa like that. Why? There are big salaries in working for aid agencies, please do not think of the perks. Medicines sens Frontieres an exception.

      Levett - 2011-11-05 18:52

      Thobo's underlying fear that the ANC leadership is standing in line behind Gaddafi is clear from this report. The inevitable 2nd global recession & Euro crisis mean that gold is going to become more significant than oil. I would also worry if I'm an ANC leader since the UN need not dream up things like imaginary weapons of mass destruction to find reason to intervene in SA ... good luck boys, your days are counted.

      Edward - 2011-11-05 19:09

      I can't believe that the brighter Mbeki (Moeletsi) is not leading this country, but Hermann is correct about Thabo

      Vusi - 2011-11-05 20:11

      This is the most interesting discussion I have ever seen on here. I can just sit in amazement and learn from all of you clever men. For the first time all the sane people are on! Where are you all when I have to fight the ANCYL?

      John - 2011-11-06 08:04

      South Africans have been captured by Somali pirates. Where are the SA arms deal Corvettes? Why are the 4 corvettes not part of the Global effort to fight the pirates? The pirates ARE a threat to the self -determination of the Somali PEOPLE? Mbeki is a traitor to the African PEOPLE!

      adrien.mcguire - 2011-11-06 10:56

      Thabo, you are supposed to be an intelectual. Well once again you have blown that theory. The "Arab Spring" is about freedom from oppression When the west didn't intervene in Rwanda, you blamed them. When they do intervene you blame them. Wake up and smell the coffee ! The same thing is going to happen here if the ANC elite continue to rape this country and it's economy.Then ask the west for help. With respect, sir, you are nothing more than a bufoon parading as a politician.

      Spyker - 2011-11-06 12:25

      adrien.., I always find it particularly entertaining when someone like Thabo Mbeki criticises the “West” – while he was an absolute beneficiary of the “West’s” benevolence; ie he lived in London for (the proverbial) sweet-fanny-f***-all, while he coaxed a qualification out of them. A “qualification” one would sincerely question would have materialised in a “non-artificial” state of affairs – eg his shining lack of even a fundamental understanding of the functioning of a virus (much to the entertainment of the rest of the world and the overwhelming embarrassment of SA) serves as one of many examples. So, you are welcome to refer to him as an “intellectual”, I would not go any further as ‘gardener in a borrowed hat and cloak’ – serving merely to hide the ‘dagger’ and for NO other purpose. BTW BROTHER Thabo.., let us just keep it simple (I am sure you prefer it that way) the ONLY reason the ANC (inter alia) wanted to protect Gaddafi: he bankrolled the most extensive crime syndicate (likely) on the planet (if not in history) - a continent wide 'crime regime' that stretched as far south as the ANC and Zanu PF.

      Smell - 2011-11-07 07:42

      John and Spyker, I find some lines in your contributions unbelievably racist. To describe Mr. Mbeki as a "barbaric savage" or a "gardener with a borrowed hat and cloak" is absolutely unacceptable. Mr. Mbeki made serious mistakes, but so did PW Botha and his predecessors. You can try and pigeon hole me as a lefty, but I certainly am not. Feel free to read my contributions lower down.

      baudoux1 - 2011-11-07 13:43

      Whoever has the biggest stick wins! Im sure Africans would have understood this concept by now! Given the last 30+ years of their history!!

      Joanne - 2011-11-07 14:01

      It would be easier to respect the AU if it ever acted decisively to end all conflicts and human rights' abuses on the continent. Zimbabwe and Somalia are cases in point. Sure, individual leaders have helped (with the rest of the world) to bring a measure of peace to the DRC and Sudan, but they do not have a great record in the decision-making or consistent action departments.

      marco.tomaso - 2011-11-09 11:14

      Removal of Gaddafi-The History between Africa and Europe: The period between 1881 and the start of World War I is described as the Scramble for Africa.During this time European imperial powers of Great Britain,France,Germany,Italy,Belgium,Spain,and Portugal,gained control of virtually all of Africa.By 1914 only 2 countries in Africa were not under European control,Liberia and Ethiopia.In 1911,the Italians took control of Libya from the(Turkish)Ottoman Empire.Even though Libya was one of the last African regions to fall under European control,it was the first African colony to gain its independence from Europe in 1951. While the leaders of Western countries hated Gaddafi,we have seen that he was well regarded by the leaders of the newly independent African nations in much of the 20th century. The West and NATO countries are committed to the "Washington consensus",with its emphasis on privatization of public enterprises,elimination of subsidies so that prices are set by the free market,reduction of taxes and public services,sacred economic doctrines that Gaddafi did not accord with when he was alive and in power. The NTC has a much more difficult political task of putting together a stable government that's experimenting with Democracy.Libyans are hoping,like the rest of the watching world,that the new leaders who emerged from all this will be seriously concerned with improving the lives of Libyans rather than just enriching themselves or their Western "friends".

  • Wilma - 2011-11-05 17:51

    How can a normal person be so delusional?

      Francois - 2011-11-05 18:31

      According to Mbeki, self determination under despotic leaders like Mugabe and Gaddafi that kill and maim and rape their own people is better than to stand up to the principle of human rights. He is in fact acknowledging that the struggle had nothing to do with human rights, thus his other arguments that apartheid was inhumane is hereby declared invalid - how sickening that may be. Apartheid was the worst,except for possibly communism under Stalin and Nazism under Hitler, but according to Mbeki the west should not have invaded Germany because of human rigths, but because the people of Europe was not in a state of self determination.

      Vusi - 2011-11-05 18:43

      I fully agree Francois!!!! Brilliant!

      Francois - 2011-11-05 19:19

      Ai tog Shoe, did any ONE mention supremacy and in fact that Francois oke said that Apartheid was almost as bad as communism and Nazism. If Africa does not always beg, then please start a campaign to say that the EU must stop medical aid to Zim. Then at the same time, will you please enlighten us, since you have the inside track, on what the African model is for human rights - Is it Zim, is it Lybia or just what is it? Write us a blog, we are looking forward to your wisdom.

      Dirk - 2011-11-05 19:36

      Once again, I am just a little confused. If apartheid was as evil as it is suggested here( For the record, as a white, I opposed it in the 70s)why then did so many from all over Africa, try and get INTO SA- fleeing from "the liberated, bastions of freedom" with which the ANC regime had such a cozy relationship. And dont come with the destabilizing argument because they came from all over Africa, far beyond the reach of SA influence. Mbeki looses all credibility when he tries to justify the "armed struggle" in SA but not in Lybia. And for goodness sake, the other Mbeki is not a saint- he made millions from the arms deal.

      Gaanake - 2011-11-05 22:11

      Shoe, yes, you are delusional. Blacks cannot prove their own "supremacy" by oppresing their fellow unfotunate blacks, or by ignoring their suffering perpetrated by fellow black despots. Blacks (or any nation) do not have to be "superior" to anyone. Simple self respect, respect of others and knowingand practising right from wrong, will be enough. We will always feel inferior for as long as we believe and behave, through our actions, inferior.

      Oneant - 2011-11-06 06:13

      @Shoe : sounds like you have an inferiority complex.

  • Peter - 2011-11-05 18:01

    A typical "african responce". kick the west because at this point in time it suits them, but the bowl goes out begging - almost all the time. I wonder how much money has been poured into Africa since all these "African" countries became independent? Enough to kick start a new USA, but wait a minute, there is corruption, nepostism, terrorism (Remember PanAm - Libya). When will Africa start standing on its own feet without handouts? When they do, they will have every right to condemn any bosy they feel - because it will be their hard earned right, not begging bowl right.

      Honest - 2011-11-06 11:05

      The article is meant to highlight the refusal by the security council for the roadmap by African counties to be implemented in a bid to save the people of Lybia from Gadaffi rule which they happened to challenge . Nato is the Western powers whether you like it or not so I don`t know where the pain is when Mbeki correctly mentions the West on the matter. The second point I wish to make is the West is not stupid , they did not go into Lybia for the sake of the Lybian people Only , the larger part of the Western Agenda is yet to be seen , the people of Lybia will be first to see and feel , they can write down all they had under Gadaffi so they can refer back in 5 years time , pity the leader could not allow elections etc otherwise he shared the wealth with the Lybian people. Maybe we can talk about the positives now that we have unilaterally agreed he was an autocratic ruler as is with many Arab countries.

  • Visa - 2011-11-05 18:08

    Many African countries had the opportunity to arrest the dictator, but they didn't. Nato only got involved at the request of Arab countries.

  • Juan - 2011-11-05 18:10

    And how has the quiet diplomacy been working for you in Zim? What a laugh

      Vusi - 2011-11-05 19:37

      Juan, they just tell us it is quiet diplomacy, what it actually should be called is African "Mafiaism". It is blatantly clear that they are fending for each other because they were struggle buddies yonks ago. Being of this new generation, why should I pay for their evil mismanagement in the name of what freedom????????? Is anybody free in South Africa or Zim????????? But they have a thing coming to them these dictators and I mean those in training here too. WE ARE NOT GOING TO ALLOW ANOTHER ZIMBABWE. I hope you are reading this Mr. Mbeki. I had the greatest respect for you until you started aiding and abetting your buddy in Zim.

      Colin - 2011-11-06 11:38

      vusi I wish more africans would think like you then the west would not need to intervene or send food aid, unfortunately most seems to suffer from a victim complex in which they will accept donations but not real help which would empower them to actually do something for themselves.

  • Malcolm - 2011-11-05 18:11

    Mr Mbeki, problem is we haven't proved that we govern ourselves. Let's use the benchmark of 50 years (compare with Japan, Singapore and others) what has Africa achieved besides war and famine?

      AquaticApe - 2011-11-05 21:35

      Go back to 1948; Germany is in ruins,Japan has been flattened, their people are beaten and demoralised, Israel has just been reborn and is under attack and Ghana just got its "independance" with a fully fuctional infrastructure and a competent civil service. Fifty years later Japan was the second largest economy on Earth, Germany was the third largest, Israel's GDP is larger than all its Arab neighbours combined and where in world rankings was Ghana? Mbeki is a bigoted racist who will forever blame everyone else except the rotten African leaders that have let 'his' continent down so badly.

  • Andrew - 2011-11-05 18:12

    It's not worth the effort to argue such stupidity.

  • Abbucketlist - 2011-11-05 18:19

    Oil, Oil and Americans, that sums it all up!

      Abbucketlist - 2011-11-05 18:58

      Let us not have our disgust for Mbeki make us approve what the Yanks once again did to secure oil!

      Smell - 2011-11-05 22:42

      The premise that the US wage these liberation wars to primarily gain access to resources (specifically oil) from interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya is absolutely ludicrous. Iraq has not showered the US with cheap oil since liberation. Afghanistan has no significant oil deposits - hello. Obama was severely criticized for dragging his feet to become involved in Libya. The US had no way of predicting who would control Libya once the freedom genie was let out of the bottle. There is the real chance that a more Islamist regime will come to power in Libya, preferentially shipping oil to China. The horrendous death toll in Iraq and Afghanistan is primarily the result of insurgents not accepting the concept of democracy or womens' rights. These wars would probably never have happened if it was not for 9/11 - a huge shock to the US nation. And the US has essentially bankrupted itself in the process. Those who rejoice in the the misfortune of the US should consider whether the world under Hitler or Stalin would have been a better place. Thank you USA for delivering us from evil, and filling our world with cars, refrigerators, television and Ipods.

      donderwolk - 2011-11-07 17:21

      1) There will never be such a thing as cheap oil with private companies like Halliburton is in charge of oil fields in iraq. The bush family has strong ties to this specific company. you dont get rich by slashing prices on rare commodities. 2)Its well known fact that afghanistan has mineral resources worth trillions, thats why the soviets wanted in there so badly. (google it) the US help taliban, taliban gets greedy kicks US out. well, if you were the US, you'd be pissed too and payback in the order of the day. 3)"shipping oil to china"? China and russia abstained from voting on the resolution, NTC not long after promised that france and US would be main beneficiaries. so please.... 4)you are all for womens' right? its a fact that more women and children died since the invasion. 5)fox news did a pole and results showed that more than 90% of american believe 9/11 was an inside job, i guess you are part of the blind 10%. 6)america is bankrupt ja, but oil and arms firms made record profits. who was the biggest contributors to obama's election compaign? you got it..... 1)banks, who are funding these wars 2)weapons manufactures 3)big oil co's....

  • William - 2011-11-05 18:20

    Where is Vusi to comment on this story?

      Vusi - 2011-11-05 19:51

      Hahahaha Williambill.....Here I am but the guys on here have said everything there is to be said to Mr. Mbeki. We have the clever guys on here tonight and I can only learn from them.

  • Debbie - 2011-11-05 18:31

    Is he drunk again? His people wanted him gone, his people started the revolt against him not the West! He wanted to form a UNITED states of AFRICA and have Sirte as the capital and him as the President..from Zumas lips and they were all intimidated by him in the AU...you know Brother Leader and all....the only deal the AU offered his country involved him staying on in power...how well has the AU worked in ZIM, not a jot!!! Africa stop blaming the WEST for all your problems you are your own worst enemy and if it was not for there human aid you wold all be dying of starvation and disease!!! And maybe if you wee not so dam corruptible you may still have your diamonds and oil to feed your people instead of trading it for power, whiskey and weapons! Makes me sick!! Take a look in the mirror and stop blaming everyone else for your problems, stop breeding, this will go a long way to solving your problems!

  • j.c.s.mailbox - 2011-11-05 18:35

    If AfricaN selfdermination means to implement dictators all they way to rule each and every African country it only means: THIS CONTINENT HAS NO FUTURE AT ALL!!! It also means that governmentleaders who thrive in the butter of their corruption have now future. No nation no goverment!!!

  • Oxygen2000 - 2011-11-05 18:38

    Well, you see, when your behavior suggests that all these 'rumours' are true, then you should perhaps step back and examine your actions - without the narcissistic attitude. You've basically dirtied your own doorstep in such a spectacular manner that any rational thinking country/government/person cannot help but think of corruption RE your relationship with Libya.

  • psebe - 2011-11-05 18:39

    you may buy your diploma or degrees but you'll never buy education,some people you miss their intellect,more like a lack of salt or certain ingredient in the food.What the former president is saying is nothing but elaboration of what He said on"RE-COLONISATION" of AFRICA by the west.ZIZI Mother AFRICA need you more than ever before..we wronged you and for my part i apologise

  • kosmonooit - 2011-11-05 18:41

    African leadership must wake up and smell the roses - why do they puss-foot and pander despots & dictators in the name of "African Unity"

  • riaanfv - 2011-11-05 18:42

    the same way you have been negotiating for mugabe to leave?

  • vwkweyama - 2011-11-05 18:44

    Neo-colonial forces are as powerful and inhumane colonial counterparts. They are powerful because they have managed to brainwash the world populace and justify the marginalisation of the downtrodden through the forces of media. Our narratives as Africans depend on the construction of the other and ours exist inside the might of the powerful, those who have the military prowess to punish disobedient kids of the developing. African lives continue to cheap!

      Ramo - 2011-11-07 15:01

      Truth need to be told We cannot blame western for nothing the reason why most of African countries are poor is because of their self-fish mentality of enslaving African men to create their bloody wealth from the expense of innocent African people.. Today the world is running by western thug who will make sure their interests should be served irrespective of unfavourable living condition African face... African are taught to save money while we know there is no value in saving the money in the bank, we are exposed to Credit card, Personal loans, Buying Bonds.. All of this are favouring western imperialist because the own 90% of the in African Countries.... Media also misleading people by promoting everything that is western interests.. Freedom means colonizing African Again.. South Africa is not free until South african can enjoy the fruits of our land. our Govenment is also controlling by western capitalist who always make shoe their need are served first while we claim to leave under the motor "of Govenment of the people by the people for the people"

  • Shoe - 2011-11-05 18:51

    No truer word was spoken!!! Countries with oil are under the gun. While poor countries (like Zimbabwe) suffer consequences of adictators worse than those of the of the Arab world; without the West betting an eyelid. If there ever was a sickly dictator to be removed it is Mugabe. But because there isn't the promise of oil in Zim, the Worst (reads West) won't get into 'unnecessary costs' for some 'insignificant' African country. How hypocrytical.

      Jeffrey - 2011-11-05 19:44

      @Shoe, Make up your mind. First you bitch at the West for intervening in Libya, then you bitch at them for not intervening in Zimbabwe. If they had intervened I bet you would be right there with the poisoned dwarf screaming "Neo-Imperialism". As for your statement "Mbeki is not delusional. And never was delusional." So you think he was right in blaming the West for HIV/AIDS - it was all a Western plot to portry Africans as sexual beasts? The man was/is delusional because of a massive inferiority complex.

      Shoe - 2011-11-05 20:05

      @ Jefferey: You see the situations in Lybia and Zim as two different issues, I don't. I see similar situations in which dictators are playing out their nacissism and self-importance. You overlook the inconsistency and hypocricy of the West in dealing with these situation. Well, I don't. I note how the West deals with the rich dictator where they are likely to benefit, and how they leave the AU to deal with the other dictator where the West is least likely to benefit financially if they intervene. Gaddaffi should have been dealt with in the same way as Mugabe. And the reverse is also true. Mugabe should have been removed with similar brutality as Gaddaffi, if the West was really who they claim to be, and not the scheming,thieving, oppressives that they are. Two-faced bankrupt hyprocrites!!!

      Fred - 2011-11-05 21:01

      @Shoe - I think Zim and Libya are totally different situations - in Libya the people rose up against Ghaddafi first, and then asked the West for help, but in Zim they are too scared to rise up against Mugabe, so the West will not help until asked to intervene.

      Shoe - 2011-11-05 21:20

      By your own admission, the people are too scared to even ask for help. And you still do not think that is reason enough to priorotize the country for intervention. I still call it hypocrisy. Zimbabwe is a ruined country. White farmers and the MDC have been calling for help for more than 10 years now. The West would not be bothered to send in their army because 'the end' simply DOES NOT 'justify their fhuckenmeans'. Its always about what is in it for them, to them.

      Gaanake - 2011-11-05 23:13

      Shoe my friend, the SA government will not allow Zimbabwe to be invaded. Not that SA is more powerful than the West, but drawing SA in to support Zimbabwe militarily, will be too costly for all. And why should the West risk that... with SA supporting Mugabe despite the atrocities committed beyond our borders? Even with the mass influx of the poor, starving and illegal Zimbwabwens across our boders, SA still supports Mugabe. You have heard how Malema went across to meet the senile dictator and sung his praise. What do you expect? I'm saying that the AU, or the Africans, are lame-ducks and cannot act to protect the suffering of their fellow africans. But, the minute the West steps in, they will complain of interference.

  • Grant - 2011-11-05 18:58

    Please tell me Mr Mbeki, when has the AU/OAU ever sorted out a problem on the continent be it war, famine, drought, genocide or dictatorships? All they ever do is hold meetings. And boy, dont our black brothers love to meet as long as the booze is flowing.

  • Jerhone - 2011-11-05 18:58

    Does this old gasbag still thinks anyone listens to him? when he was in power he supported dictators himself, he's scared the west can see how useless this ANC is

      Levett - 2011-11-05 19:07

      You can't fool all the people all the time ... the west opened their eyes. They also have financial problems and in the style of the USA they will steal from the weak. E.g. SA with a leaderless defence force & bozo's for soldiers.

  • Louise - 2011-11-05 19:01

    If the AU is not going to sort these dictators out - which they dont!! Then the "west" will - praise the Lord!

      Phiwe - 2011-11-06 19:44

      what do you know about Gadaffi or Libya? People talk about the rebels fighting against oppression, fighting for liberation. Liberation from what exactly? Free health care, free education, social support for new families and new mothers, petrol cheaper than water, everyone looking for work in employment, poverty rates low, crime low...what are they liberated against exactly? People in Libya were probably more free than people in the western world, with no big brother state checking in to see what you are doing and how you are doing it. Gadaffi was a good man, he was good to his people and good to Africa. You tell me if you know of anyone who has lead a bloodless coup anywhere in the world, not even Nelson Mandela can claim to that. And they call him a dictator. Well maybe he is but it's rich for the west to preach a system of political self-determination that they have only just recently embraced themselves and they want to go to places to forster democracy, at who's behest?

  • Kevin - 2011-11-05 19:07

    The lesson is there is always someone decen tand a lot stronger out there and when a terrorist thug like Gadaffi behaves like an African dictator he will be removed and extinguished in every case. Bye Mubarak, Assad, idiot amin ,Charles Taylor and so the list will go on as stupid dictators try steal the loot and hurt innocent people.. Be warned.Self determination as per mbeki means let the dictator kill ,maim ,rape and do whatever he wants as it self determination. It was to be expected that an organization with the credentials of the anc would support a mass murderer like Gadaffi. Sadly from mbeki's speech he has learnt zero, With a democracy Libya can follow self determination .THANK GOD FOR THE SANE WEST

  • Kevin - 2011-11-05 19:15

    mbeki has a go at the West. Has this guy any sense ? Has he toted up the hundreds of billions of aid money that Africa gets from the West? Does he realize that the anti retro virals which keeps more than 50% of Africans alive comes courtesy of the West. African leaders need to be more thankful and have better relations with the West that has given them everything they see ,touch and use.They must realize what there lives would be like without the help. Embrace those that make your lives better instead of always trying to rip them off .They owe you nothing. I am sure that all the Libyan's who no longer get killed for no reason or the women who got raped are far happier now and live without fear . Get real mbeki.See you at the arms deal hearings. Very interested to see what they ask you.

  • Shoe - 2011-11-05 19:27

    Thank God for the Mbekis of the this world. For without them, the African child would grow up to the images of him/herself as: -The less; -The begger; -The sick; -The thief; - The thick; - The inadequate; and the list is endless. And there are people who feel offended only because Mbeki says: That is not true of any human race under the sun. All nations have a right to self determination; and Africa in so different. Such people just can not bear the thought of an African as anything other than -The less; -The begger; -The sick; -The thief; - The thick; - The inadequate. God bless you and your cause Mbeki. Many in the West may despise your message, but rest adores you. Your voice continues to inspire millions of Africans accross the world.

      Sedick - 2011-11-05 19:43

      The honourable Mbeki fiddled with the internet while Tens of Thousands of South Africans were denied ARVs. Pregnant woman passed the condition over to countless thousands of innocent babies. He supported Mugabe, appointed and supported criminals like Celebi (including allowing international criminals safe haven in SA), was an integral architect of the Arms Deal and associated corruption, started the ANC ethical slide towards the gutter (ZUMA has taken them into and below the gutter), AND Mbeki WAS A RACIST!!!! He was the prime reason why I do not vote for the ANC anymore, and detest everything that they stand for - predominantly tolerance corruption and wastage/abuse of public funds....

      Shoe - 2011-11-05 19:52

      That does not make his voice less sound on the issues of West domination and oppression. Go on insult and despise him. Love or hate the man. Its your choice. But. the truth of the matter is that African children need to hear his voice and develop a positive image of themselves. Whatever his stance on the HIV/AIDS discourse, the fact of the matter is that his voice on self-determination resignates with millions of Africans across the globe. No amount of insults is going to change that.

      Sedick - 2011-11-05 20:37

      I consider myself African, and do not need others to give me a positive image of myself. And certainly not someone like Mbeki that allowed hundreds of thousands of my fellow South Africans to needlessly die and contract AIDS. He should be hauled in from of the Humans Right courts for genocide......the fact that he is intelligent make sit more of a crime....I see him as an "Intelligent Idiot". Let's also remember that he was the sole reason why we ended up with Zuma - he did not want to stand down and groom a successor as he hoped to be the ANC leader, and thereby be the "president" of SA after his final term....people vote to get rid of him, not for Zuma.....

      Shoe - 2011-11-05 21:08

      Saddick, I think you are still caught up on the pre & post Polokwane mass in the ANC. If for once you can rise above the mess that has now become the defining characteristic of the tripartite alliance and all the structures involved, may be then we could have a conversation about Mbeki's stance of Africa. Until you learn to separate the two i.e. the ANC & Tripartite alliance mess; and Pan-Africanism; and step outside of your own affiliation; you will not be able to understand the jist of this discussion. Even if I were to shrink and stoop down to ANC issues and infighting; Mbeki's leadership, not by any means immaculte, was by far, more articulate and meticulous than Zuma's. In comparison, the two are a Horse and Donkey. I will serve you the pleasure of picking the Donkey :).

      Sedick - 2011-11-05 23:40

      Shoe, I have been to most African countries, and found them with few exceptions to be a mess – poverty, lack of/or no services, corruption, bribery – u have to bribe someone just to get on a plane even if you have a ticket! Yet, the political leaders live in mansions, have private planes, have houses on the Mediterranean, have fat Swiss bank accounts, exotic cars, Hublot watches, wear designer clothes, etc. The problem with Africans is that we blame all our problems on Colonialism and the past, and our current problems on the West - but we take $billions from them in aid, while our African leaders rape and pillage the state coffers for their personal enrichment. Uganda, as an example still depends on handouts from the UK - and they have been independent since the 60s. Next to the runway at Kampala airport one can still see helicopters that were shot down over 40 years ago. Yes, I agree that the West has been, and still is an under-hand force, but we allow them to do this. Even when we rule ourselves, we rape and pillage our own people. The president that loses the election (where there are elections or ones that are not rigged) generally refuses to step down, and then the killing starts.

      Sedick - 2011-11-05 23:42

      The AU is even more useless than the UN, and the AU is supposed to look after African interests. They do nothing about the corrupt leaders. In fact, they walk around and party with them at our expense. Mbeki was one of them – Mugabe, Gadaffi, etc were given free access to our country, but we deny the Dalai Lama. And yes, I agree that Mbeki was more cultured and articulate than Zuma. But, the one will go down in history as a mass “murderer”, and the other as the most corrupt, unethical, immoral, leader we will ever have. Well, I pray that we will not be subjected to worse in either case. I will end by saying that unless we Africans stop blaming the past, and the West in the present, we will never move forward and make Africa a better place.

  • Smell - 2011-11-05 19:37

    What is the shrill little choir criticizing the West for liberating Lybia really implying? As long as an African leader isn't White (a "brother leader"), then it is OK that he can suppress and slaughter his own people at will? They actually do not seem to care that many African despots have well outdone the Apartheid leaders in the killing tally of their own citizens. That is not a position driven by a desire for human rights; that is just a racist anti-White position. The West has already learned the hard way that the liberation of a Muslim country does not necessarily lead to a pro Western government in that country. Like what happened in Iraq and probably will happen in Afghanistan as soon as the US troops leave. An Islamist regime may very well end up running Lybia. How to interpret decades of Western aid to starving Africa? Mr. Mbeki's AIDS delusion has now led to the death of more the 300,000 South Africans. That eclipses the death toll under Apartheid (20,000-30,000) by more than a factor of ten. Mr. Mbeki's failure to support the Zimbabwean people when it was clear that Mugabe and his party lost the 2008 election was absolutely shameful. Now RSA is saddled with the enormous socio-economic burden of having to accommodate millions of Zimbabwean refugees. Mr. Mbeki, your leadership proved to be a bitter disappointment. And in your failure you paved the way for the ANC flavour of despot leadership that lurks just around the next corner.

      Vusi - 2011-11-05 22:06

      Smell. Africa doesn't have a clue what democracy means. In our minds democracy means going back to the way our ancestors lived. The King, many wives and subjects. That is why you have dictators all over the place. It will take a few more generations of evolving before we realise that we are not a planet on our own and we are part of a globe and we need the globe if we are going to have food on our tables. Africa is free isn't it? Wasn't Zim freed in 81 or around there? Us Africans have no idea what to do when we get freedom. We can't get on with life and build a new economy. We grab mines and corporations in the name of freedom. I am not a fan of Anglo American and the Oppenheimers, but they did put food on many tables. Our problem is we can't manage assets when we get hold of them. Those horrible Nationalists gave us perfect roads when we took over from them and now hundreds die every year because we steal the money meant for road maintenance. Like all the money for the repair of the N12 in the North West.Probably other provinces too. I know how many tyres my father lost on the N12. The stealing isn't only impacting on the "whites", it is killing the very people that voted them into power.

  • Cracker - 2011-11-05 19:56

    If by self-determination is meant privacy to do as you like with your helpless and suppressed citizens then the West, world or whoever should take the self-determination back.

  • Zubair - 2011-11-05 20:00

    The real reason for Barack Hussein Obama attac...king Libya has nothing to do with humanitarian reasons. It has everything to do with a gold heist. Barack Hussein Obama unlawfully sent U.S. forces to attack Libya to control the country’s vast oil (black gold) resources and its 144 tons of gold bullion. Today the U.S., France, the UK, Canada and other NATO war criminals are pouring into Libya to steal the Libyan people’s gold. U.S. and British troops are already on the ground (in violation of the UN Resolution 1973) to extract the gold bullion. It is the stolen Libyan gold that Barack Obama is offering the European Union. The bankrupt United States is offering to bailout the bankrupt European Union with stolen Libyan gold. A thief is helping out another thief using stolen goods. How humanitarian of Obama. ( Libya’s true leader, Muammar Gaddafi was planning to introduce the Gold Dinar just before the United States and France launched their illegal war against Libya. Gaddafi was also to demand gold in return for his people’s oil . This was the second reason for the United States / NATO war against Libya. The IMF, the WTO, the World Bank and their agents in the United States – the illegal Federal Reserve gangsters were threatened by the return to a honest currency – gold and silver backed.

      Vusi - 2011-11-05 21:37

      No No No Zubair. Make yourself some coffee my Brother! You are not well! Thank God the Hairdo Of Libya never got us all in Africa involved in his evil schemes!

      Ramo - 2011-11-07 15:43

      In reality NATO are the once caused all killing and looting in Libya Qaddafi was only their target now he is gone died horrebly they claim Libya is free from oppression,according to their own interpretation of freedom, Freedom means colonizing African Again by taking control of our resources with value less paper called currency..actually today oil is used to control wealth...

  • Zubair - 2011-11-05 20:02

    Under the guise of “protecting civilians,” the United States led NATO into Libya and is now attempting to assassinate the Libyan leader. Libya just so happens to be the largest oil producer in Africa. Many do not realize that Gaddafi’s plan to introduce the gold dinar, a single African currency, would have served as an alternative to the worthless and impotent Federal Reserve Note and allow African nations to share the wealth. It is surely no coincidence that Iraq’s prior leader, Saddam Hussein, was trying to do the same thing just prior to the U.S. invasion for “weapons of mass destruction.” 30,000 troops from the 1st Calvary Division (heavy armor) and III Corps at Ft. Hood are being readied for deployment to Libya by October. Months before Obama unilaterally ordered U.S. and NATO forces to attack Libya, hundreds of British, American and French Special Forces were already on the ground in Libya training and commanding the CIA / MOSSAD recruited foreign mercenary army.

  • Zubair - 2011-11-05 20:03

    Already the World Bank and the Federal Reserve shysters have offered to “help” Libya’s recovery by indebting Libya with crippling interest bearing loans that can never be paid back while swallowing up the real assets of Libya.

      Cracker - 2011-11-05 20:11

      Conspiracy theories. The fact remains that the Libyan country and peoples were hijacked. For 42 years plus. Those who followed how the situation and circumstances developed will not fall for lies.

      Vusi - 2011-11-05 21:30

      @Zubair. Where did you get this information? Libya is a Muslim country and you know the laws of Islam don't you?

  • Cracker - 2011-11-05 20:06

    Down with hijackers of countries and peoples. Down even with the self-delusionists like Thabo Mbeki. They are adding to the problems of the world. It doesn't matter if oil was a consideration - it wasn't. Just propaganda. But if it did play a role Libyans should be thankful that they have it. The alternative? HOW CAN SO MANY BE SO BLIND TO BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS LIKE DEMOCRATICALLY PICKING YOUR OWN LEADERS AND PREVENTING RUBBISH FROM TAKING OVER OTHERS LIVES AND COUNTRIES? And then worst of all like Thabo Mbeki is doing to justify it in public in the most arrogant manner against all common sense?

      Vusi - 2011-11-05 21:26

      Tell them Cracker!!!! I love your fire!!!!

  • Koos - 2011-11-05 20:07

    Is anybody free in South Africa or Zim????????? But they have a thing coming to them these dictators and I mean those in training here too. ""WE ARE NOT GOING TO ALLOW ANOTHER ZIMBABWE. I hope you are reading this Mr. Mbeki. I had the greatest respect for you until you started aiding and abetting your buddy in Zim."" Thabo - I wanted to ask you if you condone the actions of the likes of AMIN, MUGABE and Gadaffi - then I saw this comment by Vusi. Pleast take time and answer us - and be honest. DO YOU CONDONE THEIR ACTIONS? Don't give us a story to try and justify it - just say YES or NO.

      Vusi - 2011-11-05 21:22

      Sadly Koos, as with the ostrich head in the sand syndrome about HIV/Aids, you will never get an answer from him. But I will give him this much credit. His Hugo Boss suits looked like business and at least when he got onto his Presidential Jet, there was only ONE wife with him. One could send him to the UN and not hang your head in shame. He looked like a State President and not Africa's version of Hugh Heffner. His policies were a whole different matter!

  • Vic - 2011-11-05 20:18

    Mbeki, the AU roadmap was doomed from the start. The AU is a joke!Even Zuma's visit to Lybia was a failure. It was the Lybian people who wanted Gaddaffi OUT! it had nothing to do with oil, as some suggest. Nato got involved because Gaddaffi's troops were killing indiscrinately, and using heavy military machinery, againt citizens, who wanted a democracy.

  • Cracker - 2011-11-05 20:21

    There is absolutely no evidence that oil was the consideration of Nato and Arab League assistance to keep the hijacking Gaddafi's at bay to prevent mass slaughter of Libyans. But just in case one would like to believe that it was the consideration it is recommended that all who are against hijackers of countries and peoples thank god that Libya has oil. How horrible if there then was no oil? Wish Zimbabwe and some other countries had oil. The passport to freedom: oil. What say the conspiracy theorists? What is wrong if the natural resources of your little piece of soil adds in your plight for the the freedom to choose your own leaders democratically, in other words, by a secret ballot for whoever wishes to stand for election. Nothing wrong with it. Pray for oil all of you suppressed.

      Vusi - 2011-11-05 21:12

      LOL LOL Cracker. I just loved your logic. I also wish Zim had an asset the world wanted. Sadly by the time Grace Mugabe has sold all the blood diamonds to maintain her lavish lifestyle the people of Zim will need the West to rebuild the ruins the Mugabes have left them with.

      Cracker - 2011-11-05 23:02

      @ Vusi Thanks. I must say that I also appreciate your approach - I actually mean common sense and a very sharp logic mind. But we will not spend time on acknowledging what is in any event there for all to see. Freedom of access to thinking material is the most important asset in this life. Without it it is not worth living. In fact, even if you are not allowed to express your thinking it is not worth living. Slavery is not an option. It makes not an iota of difference what the source of the confinement is. And this is the warning all leaders should seriously consider: Modern technology will not allow you to hide forever like you used to do with all kinds of tricks. We will find out what you were and are up to.

  • Madulla - 2011-11-05 20:21

    Mbeki is the enemy of 'Democracy'. Mbeki is the enemy of 'Basic Human Rights'. Mbeki is the enemy of 'Self Determination'. Mbeki is the enemy of 'Free and Fair Elections'. Mbeki is the enemy of 'Law Abiding Citizens'. In short, Mbeki is the enemy of 'The People'. How can any decent human being ever want to listen to a person who defends all that is evil and corrupt in his world?

      shopman.moyo - 2011-11-05 21:44

      open your mind AND eyes you obidient slave the west is after our resorces lol

  • tnomayela - 2011-11-05 20:26

    Mr Thabo Mbeki is revealing the motive behind the killing of Muammar Gaddafi which is Europe s interest,they pretend these Non-African as they are going to free people of Libya we saw it in Iraq what is happening today there.The selfish interest as Mr Mbeki said is in the oil of Libya.Really they undermine the African Union when we are taking decision for ourselves as Africans.We must be vigilant in these issues Africa will never be colony again though our richness of our land goes to Europe they must not decision for ourselves.

      Smell - 2011-11-05 20:40

      Iraq now has a democracy - a leader and government voted in by the Iraqi people. The new Iraq does not seem very friendly with the US - they are cozying up to Iran. And the US does not seem to be getting a lot of oil from Iraq either. So your argument has no substance other than revealing your anti Western bias.

      Cracker - 2011-11-05 20:40

      The motive was to prevent mass murder of Libyans. Some of us DID IN FACT follow the events. The Arab League supported the Nato actions, also in practice. The real evil is the taking away of peoples' democratic right to choose their leaders for 42 years. Africa does not need BS. Surely the same democratic and decency considerations are everywhere the same on this planet? We are all in this together as citizens of the world. We need a strong international police force to enforce democracy all ovetr the world. And democracy means jsut that: The right to choose your leaders by secret ballot for whoever wishes to present the people.

  • Peter - 2011-11-05 20:37

    Pathetic

  • gmagaisa - 2011-11-05 20:44

    Thabo will never cease to amaze me. Oh, is he the same guy who was so cosy with Mugabe? What has or will the AU or SADC for that matter do when faced with dictators like Mugabe and Gadhafi? Mbeki should remember that self-determination is not killing and maiming the majority of the population by the so-called African leaders and when the west intervenes on the side of the down-trodden majority people like Mbeki cry foul. I am sure deep down in his hearts of hearts he still yearns to be president and did not want to move an inch despite that his 2 terms were nearly over anyway. The so-called leaders indulge in corruption and lavishing each other with gifts that are paid through tax payers' money in the name of self-determination! Self determination does not mean certain "Leaders" enjoy the riches in Africa while the majority suffers. Most African countries are run by dictotors who engage so much in the protection of each other at the expense of the majority. The amass wealth and send it to Europe, complain of neo-colonialism and slavery while they themselves do nothing to improve the African economy. Its high time people face up to corruption, misrule and failure to improve themselves and stop blaming the past. Mbeki wanted the west to fold their hands and watch while people were being massacred by Ghadafi and his henchmen just as the AU. Yes there is oil in Libya but if Gadhafi was the Libyan people's beloved leader the west would not have intervened.

      Vusi - 2011-11-05 21:03

      Spot On!

      Mthuthuzeli - 2011-11-06 11:18

      Vusi, ungowakwabani?

      Honest - 2011-11-06 11:57

      Way off the mark ! You guys read witout questioning the propaganda that gets put out there , it was Thabo who got better results in Zim , today they have a gorvenment that has both Zanu and MDC taking decisions. Without Thabo`s mediation it wouldn`t have happened . He just finished another intervention in South Sudan , your lack of information about the positive achievements by African people is totally overshadowing your thinking.Be open minded and give credit where it is due , as for people that were not born during appartheid I really do not blame you , you do not know where we come from even if you were to read it from books and old newspapers . To realise the change you need to have felt physically the torture we endured fighting for freedom , facing heavy artilary with stones , petrol bombs , when captured by the security forces your chances of coming back alive a blessing . Africa will never be colonised again !!!

  • Teddy - 2011-11-05 21:10

    By justifying Nato's intervention - Hermann, Wilma and those who agree with you - you are justifying the all unnecessary killing of 50000+ Libyans. But i'm not surprised seeing that you're descendants of the west yourselves, these types of attrocities are things that you refer to as just acts. I'm sure you welcomed with jubilation the fact that there were no casualties suffered by your west messiahs. Thabo Mbeki is nowhere trying to defend (or single out) Gaddafi, rather the 50000+ Libyans who lost their lives due to the oil hungry west. Not that you really care like the rest of the west

  • charikinya - 2011-11-05 21:14

    Let us not forget that countless innocent lives were lost both at the hands of Gaddafi and NATO. These voiceless victims who never had a platform to decide whether they wanted war or peace found themselves at the mercy of both warring parties. The scars of war will never heal and out of this a bruised generation will come out. Life is too precious and the life of one dictator can never be more valuable than the lives of innocent civilians. What the Libyan campaign shows us is that we might have advanced over the years as a civilisation technology wise. But when it comes to conflict resolution we are still as primitive as we were centuries ago. Going by the Security Council current standard on Conflict resolution Apartheid should have ended in the late 70s when the Apartheid regime started killing unarmed innocent civilians. This would have given cause for NATO and UN to support an armed insurgency against the Apartheid government. How many of us stand proud today that ANC leaders like Mbeki and Mandela chose not to use violence to overthrow a regime that was 10 times worse than the current deposed Gaddafi regime. Again President Mbeki I marvel at your wisdom. You are indeed a gift to Africa.

      Mathapelo - 2011-11-07 03:48

      true Charikinya, comments posted here tells me that we are still trapped in the old way of thinking and doing things. The world is now a global village we neeed to move away from the closed corner down south but rather start to read, read, read and read more to understand the world debates, understand why the UN was formed in the 1st place this will help us understand the world debates.

  • Alva - 2011-11-05 22:29

    What is Africa's self determination? Despotism? Sorry Thabo, every despot should be deposed! I am astounded by some of your reasoning. When the AU works with clear commitment towards the upliftment and democracy in all of Africa I will believe they have a workable roadmap for this continent.

  • VusiK - 2011-11-05 22:43

    Some people on this site are trying very hard to be what they are not in an attempt to consume the idea of civilization. How long are we going to allow young and old men to come in our houses and rape our wives. If we're all sane enough to critic leaders, why are we not creating our own emancipatory efforts instead of always pointing out the wrongs? What are you doing to make things better or are you just a watered-mouth-trumpet-blower who is enjoying the legacy of that, which was inhumane?

  • John - 2011-11-05 23:35

    Thabo Genocider Mbeki means a threat to the comrades tsotsis put in power by the KGB? Mentally challenged gangster!

  • Skaballas - 2011-11-06 01:23

    Maybe it was because the West saw how USELESS the AU is in sorting out problems - read "quiet diplomacy"! Libya is on Europe's doorstep and with the problems in the DRC and Zimbabwe the refugees fled to South Africa - AWAY from EUROPE, in Libya they flooded TOWARDS Europe, THAT is why they did something. Maybe, just maybe, if the AU had ANY success ANYWHERE in Africa, the West would have given them a chance in Libya, but they have proved themselves lacking, they have demonstrated they are inefficient, do not amount to anything and are basically useless! Good on you NATO, now please sort out mad BOB and while you are down here, Malema too!

  • Robi - 2011-11-06 05:48

    Please fellow S.A People.Mr Mbeki is right, Self-determination is very important to manage political or economical system of the country.Dependency syndrome is worst from the west. We are part of Global community,but Africa's problems Africans solutions or Africa taking centre stage to address its own problems as a global community. My question is why the wests with their UN did nothing when Mugabe out of order. The point is Mugabe does not have what they wanted. I mean OIL. Why the west and the UN did nothing when S.A children dying during those years. Because the system was benefitting them. The worst thing is that the UN and the wests are promoting and justifying terrorism in Africa.Through their democracy they taught us that changes come through ballot. Did changes in Lybia,Irag came through ballot. Now that the dust has settled it is time for the west to destroy Lybia through stealing Lybians resources for processing and bring them back as AID. Africa has enough to support itself and has to define democracy in terms of its origin. Western democracy does not work in Africa. Africa has to define its democracy in terms of its own people. Western democracy is also promoting corruption in Africa.

      Koos - 2011-11-06 06:13

      "Western democracy is also promoting corruption in Africa." Robi - The Lybians protested and stood up against the dictator. Nato helped. The Zim people are also protesting. Hopefully the rest will follow. Maybe mr Mugabe is really sick. If there is a civil war in Zim - who will you support? I really do not see a different democracy - and the corruption is not "promoted" - it's a culture. Now when are we going to start changing that?

  • paul.duplessis - 2011-11-06 06:45

    Yes Mbeki,read it and weep. The oppressed of the world are fed up with fat cat politicians stuffing themselves at the expense of their taxpaying people. So take note and take care...

  • Henk - 2011-11-06 08:08

    @Gaanake - that is the most succint anue statement ever. However, the chronological facts are mostly ignored by those who say "they did it for the oil", as if the evil West will now get oil for nothing. The West paid for the oil before, and they will still pay.

  • pws69 - 2011-11-06 08:19

    Your AU did really well in Zim hey Tarboy? In the Sunday Times today they list all of the illegal renditions to Zim, and how they were murdered by Mugabe, but you remain silent. Like your AU, you have no credibility, and no integrity.

  • johnnymacza - 2011-11-06 08:31

    Mbeki seems to forget that Gadafi was a murderer and a renegade. Just like the ANC his regime terrorized a whole country.I guess ANC has to support like minded terrorists.

  • Chumscrubber1 - 2011-11-06 08:40

    I agree with Mbeki, Nato and the West should not have got involved in this conflict. The Arab league asked them for assistance if I remember correctly, they should have turned them down on the basis that their involvement would be too expensive. The West should have asked the Arabs to approach the AU for assistance, and they could have asked the East for help if the failed. Why does the West always want to "help" others, its time to look after their own.

  • mothupivirgovirus - 2011-11-06 08:57

    i agree wth Mr Mbeki,de rest of u guys who find him out of oder are not Africans,@Vusi ur soul is white and we can thank Mr.R Linch(lets make slaves) for this,we will never interfere with any matter in europe,Nato undermines AU,as Haile said,until a black man is fully liberated,war will never stop,if they go Mugabe we will go for them on de ground,umkhonto we sizwe is still alive,all dose who inflict pain unto others will account...

      Smell - 2011-11-06 20:28

      Yes, Vusi does come across as rational, but why should that be a problem if he is an African? Humans are liberated when they embrace the evolved human mindset. An African, or Afrikaner, or English mindset just will not suffice. Yes, Africans have been victims. But even the Afrikaners and, for that matter, the Chinese were for a substantial part of their history. Then with a rational mindset they picked themselves up as individuals and as a group. Not eternally blaming the English or the Japanese. No, but through prioritizing family planning and education. An eternal victim mindset will not get you anywhere. That is what holding you and many others back my brother.

  • jontyclayton - 2011-11-06 09:35

    Is this the same man that happily ignored the Zimbabweans' desire to change their government?