News24

No final deal on Pretoria name - FF+

2012-03-23 13:04

Pretoria - There has been no final agreement on re-naming the country's capital or 27 streets in Pretoria, the Freedom Front Plus said on Friday.

"Talks about the street name issue are still in the early stages, and there is at present no formal offer from the ANC to keep the name Pretoria in exchange for the changing of 27 street names," the party's Tshwane metro councillor Conrad Beyers said.

Beyers confirmed media reports on Friday that the ANC and FF Plus were discussing the matter. However it was disputed that any agreement had been reached.

Beeld newspaper reported that the ANC had offered, in behind-the-scenes negotiations, to keep Pretoria's name in exchange for the re-naming of 27 streets.

"The FF Plus welcomes the possible retention of the names of Paul Kruger street and Pretorius street, but the party cannot agree to the removal of numerous other street names with significant historical meaning, such as Church street and Voortrekker road," said Beyers.

"The party however thinks a political solution, which addresses both the name of Pretoria as well as street names, is possible," he said.

Comments
  • Gigo - 2012-03-23 13:13

    the statue of Oom Paul Kruger and his soldiers must be removed next to church square in Pta,they don't represent democracy.

      Marion - 2012-03-23 13:22

      You're right Sganja. They do not represent democracy. They represent the history of Afrikaners.

      altusvanzyl - 2012-03-23 13:25

      They are part of South Africa's history. So it won't be removed sorry.

      Gigo - 2012-03-23 13:26

      Marion,those soldiers are carrying guns which they clearly represent apartheid..

      Nick - 2012-03-23 13:31

      hahaha idiot so its fine renaming everything after mk murderers none of them represent democracy

      Bigsexy.jm - 2012-03-23 13:46

      Without Paul Kruger we would have been under the cruel and barbaric British rule much earlier

      altusvanzyl - 2012-03-23 13:48

      Paul Kruger was a freedom fighter!!! Why don't you get it?

      vaughanh2 - 2012-03-23 13:50

      the anc doesn't represent democracy either

      altusvanzyl - 2012-03-23 13:56

      But malema and zuma's always pointing guns when they sing.. What does that mean then?

      jpstrauss - 2012-03-23 14:14

      Paul Kruger died decades before the word "apartheid" even existed. Epic education fail.

      Poloyatonki - 2012-03-23 14:52

      I just saw a man painting a bicycle under the bridge in Bellvile, Zille must do something about crime.

      ErikMagnetoMaier - 2012-03-23 14:52

      well done- you obviously have no clue. Saying Paul Kruger represents apartheid, is like saying Mandela represents all the problems Malema has brought along. You ignorant little man...

      maseratifittipaldi - 2012-03-23 21:30

      Sganja : So carrying guns represent apartheid? So Juju's bodyguards represent apartheid? bluzulu : in the olden days there was a slave TRADE. Chiefs SOLD their people to slave TRADERS. They TRADED their own people for material things. Some of the slave "owners" treated their slaves better than the chiefs treated them.

      Nick - 2012-03-23 21:31

      haha dude that is just some random guy writing an article tshwane is a mythical creature never existed might as well call pretoria hogwarts

      bluzulu - 2012-03-23 22:29

      Go to the listed addresses and educate yourself on the issue

      tobydt - 2012-03-24 00:05

      Bluzulu - Read your own articles before you post them next time. The article you linked stated that Pretorius' mother was a slave, not that he kept slaves. Better read articles before you link them next time :P

      Dave - 2012-03-24 06:23

      Look let’s face it, for starters this is Africa....but the problem is no African to date has done anything significant for the country or the world. The only thing they are known for is war and fighting for their freedom. Before the whites arrived in Africa there was nothing other than a bunch of people living in huts. So I do believe there wouldn't be any roads period to name if not for the whites. However in the new SA it's my hope that more and more black SA's will achieve greatness and deserve their names to be used. As we are building new things and streets all the time, why not name these. It's also such and waste of money renaming, just start naming new things. This is Africa and I do believe this should be reflected and all SA's history recognized. We don't have to destroy one to recognize the other.....

      bluzulu - 2012-03-24 08:43

      Mr. Kruger was on a third parties land fighting with another European colonist in Africa for African land. Common sense would advocate that both Colonist were wrong in their activities and any deaths from this event must be attributed to both GREEDY European monarchies. This event should have never taken place. All over the world European traders traded with black cultures for many decades then their GREEDY intentions became clear when they forced Indigenous people off their land.

  • Gigo - 2012-03-23 13:14

    Street names such as John Voster in Centurion and Hendrick Vervoed in Roodepoort they must be removed as well.

      Jacqui - 2012-03-23 13:28

      Sganja to make place for Zumas ancestors?. Or a lot of people you have never heard of. You don't know what democracy is.

      Nick - 2012-03-23 13:31

      i will agree with that but then renaming then andrew zondo or mahlangu unacceptable

      Gigo - 2012-03-23 13:34

      Jacqui -Vervoed and Voster were evil people..

      Koos - 2012-03-23 13:36

      Yeah I know how you feel. I hate it when non offensive names get changed to names of terrorists and killers not to mention bank, restaurant and church bombers and killers of innocent civilians. P.S. Zuma not evil?

      Eric - 2012-03-23 14:18

      You can't even spell VERWOERD, you illiterate so-and-so! PRETORIA REMAINS PRETORIA - finish en klaar!

      Poloyatonki - 2012-03-23 14:44

      Sganja .. Not only in PTA, even here in CT, names like Voortrekker must be changed that name is not African.

      Gigo - 2012-03-23 14:58

      @Poloyatonki we must work hard so that these names can be changed, do your best that side,we will do the same this side.Amandla

      tobydt - 2012-03-23 15:26

      Voortrekker is African.

      Bobby - 2012-03-25 08:43

      That I agree to. No need to have apartheid designers on street names. That offends people. Historical pre-apartheid people should still be remembered on street names, they are part of history. The street names that become vacant, could be renamed by pre-apartheid historical figures that have been overlooked in the apartheid past, like Shaka, Ghandhi and the likes. No ones would have to feel offended and it will give a balanced portrait of our history. I think we've had enough streets named after struggle heroes now, every second avenue is called Nelson Mandela, its getting confusing.

  • Hallo - 2012-03-23 13:21

    Who are the FF+?

      altusvanzyl - 2012-03-23 13:24

      Wahahaha you IDIOT! Get with the times

      Hallo - 2012-03-23 14:15

      Get with the times? That's rich coming from the a FF+ supporter. One of the embarrassments of this country's white population.

      jowza1 - 2012-03-23 15:14

      the + after ff is to indicate that they high on mampoer

      phathuchicos - 2012-03-23 17:56

      lolest...

      maseratifittipaldi - 2012-03-24 05:45

      Hallo : You obviously are not a race fan. FF + is a stepped up version of Formula Ford. Uses the 2litre fuel injected multivalve motor.

      e???fa??? - 2012-03-24 21:38

      ff+ is a bunch of nazis

      Bobby - 2012-03-25 08:50

      Its a voice that has to be heard, don't you agree? just like SACP, AZAPO, PAC has to be heard. Radical elements like FF+ and the ones I named here, keep us on our toes. If we don't at least take their views a little into account, they would become more radical, go underground which could be more dangerous.

  • Jacqui - 2012-03-23 13:26

    There are no poor people, no hunger, no illness, no povery and no unemployment in Pretoria. No wonder thet have all this time and money to waste on a name and that of 27streets. You don't expect to find the names of 27 people who deserve it do you?.

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 13:44

      I live in pretoria. This is a lie. There is plenty of poverty in the areas alloted for black south africans in the group areas act. There are plenty of beggers (white and black) and there is like every other south african city illneses like hiv, tb etc. There is unemployment too. Maybe not with the previousllys advantaged members of society but most do suffer.

      Deon - 2012-03-23 13:49

      Neto she meant rather spend this money on the poor in Pretoria.

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 13:52

      Sorry, I missed the irony in her remarks. My mistake.

      Rob - 2012-03-23 15:20

      Neto, just to assist you, it is called sarcasm, not irony! I know, present education system is atrocious.

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 16:05

      Hey rob, I went to a school called diocesan college (bishops) and a university called tuks. My education system is yours (probably even better than yours). That won't work on me unfortunately :)

      Rob - 2012-03-23 16:50

      Neto, you are right! You had access to a far better education that what I did, and yet you don't know what sarcasm is or even recognise it!!! Your parents should demand their money back!

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 16:59

      Hahahahaah okay rob. Well while you spent almost a decade and a half of schooling learning about sarcasm. I guess the rest of the world thought they wouldn't be able to catch up with your amazing talent in identifying the difference and decided they would look for other things to focus on in the world of academia. I'm sure you seeing my mistake and telling me about it is your proudest moment of the day. Hell I'm just gonna accept that you're a guru of all things related to the queen's language and leave you to enjoy your victory. Let's hope its not short-lived.

      Rob - 2012-03-23 17:17

      Very gracious of you, Neto. Now you just need to recognise that most of the arguments you have posted about this article also have very little sound reasoning to them.

      maseratifittipaldi - 2012-03-24 05:51

      Well said Jacqui. The way the ANC wastes money one will say everyone in S.A. is well-off. So much for representivity. If the government represented the people, 90% of government officials would be poor. They are rich only because they take money that does not belong to them. Not because they earned it.

  • Sthembiso Muzet Mbokane - 2012-03-23 13:29

    how much is this name changes going to cost the taxpayer? These constant name changes are nothing but a waste of money which could be used in trying to create more jobs. all these name changes take place yet no one ever uses the new names.

      Malusi - 2012-03-23 14:01

      Sthembiso who are u representing here? If u claims that no one is ever use new names. Please lets use the site for the good purpose, and stop proving level of stupidity to people.

      Eric - 2012-03-23 14:21

      Correct! On a daily basis, I hear black people talking about "HF" (the hospital), "John Vorster" (the police station), "Nelspruit" and even "Pietersburg"! What a waste of money!

      Christian J Denyschen - 2012-03-23 15:15

      @malusi you just proved your level of stupidity, whats your point?

  • IcemanGP - 2012-03-23 13:33

    Well I hope the in keeping with the rainbow nation and all who live in her, that the new 27 names will be like "Red Street, Blue Street, Yellow Street etc etc" No good replacing it with other apartheid names from the other team so to speak, like they did in Durban.

  • neto.maape - 2012-03-23 13:40

    There's no need for any deal with anyone. The anc are the majority party in rule. They are the voice of the people. I don't get it. If the name pretoria does not represent the views of the majority then why does it need to be nagotiated just because the majority have an attachment to the current name. They never nagotiated with anyone when the name was changed to pretoria in the first place. 79% of the country's population is black but the capital city's name is one of a minority's...

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 13:45

      *Minority have an attachment.

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 14:04

      1. South Africa is like any other democratic nation where the views of the majority need to be reflected most. If you look at it realistically then you'll realise that it is a country in africa and thus should reflect an african society. 2. Name changes are neeeded to make people realise that, and to motivate them to better a nation within context of my first point, so they realise that the country is no longer in the hands of a minority. 3. My comments being racist is nothing but your opinion and cannot be reason as to why a name can not change. 4. Socialism isn't taboo, its a polictical and economic system which is generally adopted by a working class of society. Black people also have a pre-colonial history which was errased and name change can help return that sense of history and pride.

      Mohsin - 2012-03-23 14:12

      Pretoria was founded by the Voortrekkers thats y the Afrikaaners dont want the name to be changed to a chiefs name who played no part in establishing the city of Pretoria having a metro named Tswhane is fair enough y go further?

      Lyle - 2012-03-23 14:21

      Come on no need for such comments , if you have such issues then why not call for the bulldozing of all cities designed and built by the same people you despise as they are surely a reminder of a past that you were probably to young to have witnessed so please don't live in towns or cities built by the settlers who used your ancestors as slave labour , grow up !

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 14:22

      Pretoria being founded by voortrekkers is arguable. Africans existed in that area for centuries before. "Chiefs," as you call them, did not have to do anything to establish a land already established in their identity. The fact that it was not established by the african inhabitants in a western context doesn't mean it wasn't rightfully their land. With that frame of mind you could say south africa was "discovered" a few cenruries ago by europeans- but it fails to acknoladge the existance of human beings on this land before their arrival. Why don't we rename the metro to pretoria and the city to tswane? Would you be happy with that?

      Eric - 2012-03-23 14:25

      "They never nagotiated with anyone when the name was changed to pretoria in the first place." There was nothing there when the Voortrekkers arrived on the scene. "Chief Tshwane" is a mythical figure - so mythical that they created a statue of him without anybody knowing what he even looked like! No photographs. No drawings. Nada! ANC MORONS!

      Koos - 2012-03-23 14:31

      Guys, the only reason they want to rename Pretoria is because of a memory. Guess it’s is hard to be reminded that a hand full decimated thousands till a river ran red with blood. Luckily we can keep our history alive no matter how hard the ANC tries to erase it. We remember the 16’th as we should.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-23 14:32

      neto, you are being completely unreasonable and your arguments childish. Pretoria was named after a voortrekker, they established the town which later became a city... There is no such person as Chief Tswane. Furhtermore, yes there were inhabitants of the AREA now know as Tswane.

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 14:35

      No one is against the existance of another people, or what they have done. My point is merely that if this truly is a democracy then it shouldn't be an argument, a majority of the city is black and thus the argument shouldn't accour if this majority feels the need for a name change. The minority can only try and vito it. For most to be happy. One needs to satisfy a majority of the people. I don't despise of anyone. I have a pride in my own. As for our history being mythical. :) maybe its time we made our own history unoppressed then.

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 14:53

      Wow! I never knew commenting on news24 could be so much fun! Haha it seems as though many people don't want to accept the realisty of the situation. What was did you expect when there was a political change? That the country would not become more african? Richard, let me stop being "unreasonable and choldish" then. Let me put it to you like this: our history has been dilluted and lost after an apartied system. Now that the system has been abolished- there comes a need to for the formerly oppressed to come into the fore. That includes having a the country that expresses the people who live here. Now since its just a matter of my history versus yours, let's forget all of that and let the majority decide on a new name to reflect that expression. Do you not think that would be fair? Is that not what democracy is all about. We did that by voting in leaders who would ensure that change. Now that is well within their rights- is it not? :)

      Malusi - 2012-03-23 14:54

      Precisely my brother, in a democratically country like ours majority rules. So to keep wrong history it could be political naive. Another issue that I don't get it about this guy, how does he know that u are not paying tax. He must stop to bring in element of racism if he is bitter about changes, he better leave the kitchen to prevent to suffer from unforeseen strees. Whenever they are bitter about something, they become a detecting instrument for racism.

      Nick - 2012-03-23 15:02

      another muppet what history and pride you talking about fine if you talking 300years ago but everything afrikaans being named after a coward and a bomber is bs please explain why no english name hasn't changed they did more harm in this country with concentration camps , wars and the mining sector etc

      Nick - 2012-03-23 15:05

      dude no compromise you can keep the metro since it's corrupt and bankrupt if this city was actually defended by the locals like you put it over a 100 years ago then you can maybe have a claim to what name is used having a few huts somewhere in the 100km radius where pretoria is today doesn't give you claim to it's name

      Deon - 2012-03-23 15:05

      The rules and regulations of name changes in cities / towns stipulates negotiations etc. If they don't do it minorities can go to court to cancell name changes. It has happened before in other areas and Pretoria. ANC is learning from theire mistakes.

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 15:41

      Hey deon, you mean the same requirements the anc created to make everyone happy? After they got 2/3 majority to change those rules. The same majority that still have the power to ammend that rule. Look at people like nick, its no compramise for them. So what's the point in negotiating anyway?

      Nick - 2012-03-23 15:52

      haha dude only problem is you don't have 2/3 majority can obtain it with a few tenders i suppose why rename the city after a mythical creature then might as well rename centurion lake after the loch ness monster this is the first city where the anc has actually tried to negotiate they also signed way back in the day that no place of international interest will be renamed ie airports if something is renamed then should be african name for area animal etc etc not some mk that murdered woman and children how is that a freedom fighter it's not a compromise when you suggest name swopping in pretoria and metro the municipality is bankrupt

      Wim - 2012-03-23 18:23

      The permanently disadvantaged always fall back on their "majority" to appropiate that wich they did not create, because breeding is all they ever did. The irony is that the statue of their mythical "Tswane" hasn't got balls, thus one can only wonder what he produced.

      Bennie - 2012-03-23 19:28

      Neto, I understand your feelings. just remember, taking out all Afrikaaner names will not help at all with reconciliation. Lets be honest, the afrikaaner is an african tribe, whether you like it or not. They have been in Africa for almost 400 years. The fact is that this country belonged to the Khoe-san and Khoe-khoe before blacks or whites came here. We are all colonialists. And if blacks arte making up 79% of the population, why does the ANC not have a 79% in government. Simply because at least 4 out of ten people do not agree with what they are doing. Something to think about? Please no populist replies, I expect better from you.

      bluzulu - 2012-03-23 21:24

      @ Molone, eehhh.. You are almost right, It was settled by first Europeans (In this case, Voortrekkers or Dutch colonist) in 1855. However for 100's of years before this happened, the local indigenous people called it Tswane. You see how history comes full circle on itself?

      tobydt - 2012-03-24 08:33

      bluzulu - That must by why the metropolis is called Tshwane, and the city is called Pretoria :P

      neto.maape - 2012-03-24 16:34

      Okay, bennie- I'll try and not make a "populist" reply hahaha first- you say removing an afrikaaner name will not help with reconsiliation. But remember, this is a new generation coming in. One that has no bad feelings towards afrikaaners or europeans (as they use to call themselves). With that in mind- you need to consider the need for reconsiliation in the first place? Now that a new generation is coming in with no sense of anger after years of learning that race is just a matter of skin pigmentation- there is no need for that anymore. However, now that educated black people are coming into power there's a realisation that there's a need to make this country more african. This new generation of educated black people will indirectly try and reach a uniquely african developed nation. This includes african architecture, african economic systems, african ways of life, modern african healthcare etc. African names will just be a part of that. South africa is no different to any other african country in that it is in africa and thus will surely be african. Even if it is well developed. A name like pretoria (although african in that afrikaaners only exist in africa) isn't a true reflection on the people who live there- I may stand corrected but I believe most people in pretoria are sotho and therefore will want a sotho name for their city. Also, I disagree that we are all colonialists. Africans migration within africa was never one of dominance as with colonisation. There are studies into people's dna at wits university which prove that many africans (myself and nelson mandela for example) have khoi ancestory. The intergration of khoi into african society may have been a result of the ineffectiveness of hunting and gathering to survive. Regardless the khoi are as african as the xhosas or the tswanas. The fact of the matter is south africa is mostly black, by far, and this will eventually have to show in everyday life to distance it from being a european colony to become more of a uniquely african state.

      Phuti - 2012-03-25 09:54

      Y shud we have names that r not African in Africa?

  • Mohsin - 2012-03-23 14:06

    Changing names cost money y doesn't the government rather use that money on the disgruntled residents in the townships.

      Mohsin - 2012-03-23 15:05

      Got nothing against the black folk but y do they go on like everything is owed to them

  • Matthew - 2012-03-23 14:11

    Another load of nonsense Why do we need to change our road names??? Why is this so important? millions of rands must be wasted for all this Who-Haa.its ridiculus.you want to name streets after other people,make new roads and give those the names.why waste so much tax payers money on something so petty. We're making new roads anyway so why not just allowcate the names to those? instead of wasting millions to change already perfectly fine named roads =/

  • John - 2012-03-23 14:14

    @neto...............what pre colonialist history? How was it erased? No way can a country represent only the majority. What about diversity that your type of racist always mouthing off about. You area disgrace to humanity.

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 14:27

      You ask what pre-colonial history because you don't know of it. Either because you have no access to it after it was errassed by a former apartied governance or because you can't agree with a history that isn't in a western context. Diversity is all fine and good but you can't expect africans in england or holland to start changing the views of the majority there now can you? Democracy is based on majority rule. That's what you have to accept. I don't think I'm a disgrace. I'm sorry that you think so :)

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-23 14:33

      neto, minorities in European countries have certainly changed a lot of laws in those countries... I think you need to research more.

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 14:39

      I have done my research (I'm a 3rd year economics and law double major) and I've been to both those countries myself. The laws that represent the minorities do not encroach on those of the majority. Ever. As the majority rules. Its a matter of votes, not demographics.

      Deon - 2012-03-23 15:08

      Let us hope England / UK don't evade Pretoria again or the name might be changed to King William.

      Koos - 2012-03-23 15:13

      Not demographics? Don’t the population demographics determine the ground rules or the vote for that matter? It is predicted that in future the African population would outgrow the native English population in the UK effectively putting the UK in African hands and marginalizing the indigenous population. Thus the demographic of the UK is changing that in turn will change the vote that in turn can put the UK in foreign hands. How brilliant is that? The African using European ideology to occupy a country based on... you guessed it.... demographics. I’m sorry but democracy is a European concept. You consider South Africa democratic? Just because you can vote does not make the election democratic or free or fair especially in Africa and especially not when the ancestors are going to come get you in your sleep because you don’t have an ANC membership card that will get you into heaven based on your vote that is. In any civilized country if you step out of line you are out, gone and fired. In Africa ... well you know what happens here. Clearly African democracy and European democracy is NOT the same and demographics DOES play a big part. Why else would you want to rename Church street?

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 15:29

      Koos, you're hillarious! Haha ancestors tell us to vote anc huh? That's funny... Anyway, black people aren't as stupid as you think we are. They are smart enough to decide who they vote for. Since well, they are human beings koos. The reason I said it wasn't about demographics was because I wanted to illistrate it in a legal sense. If black people wanted to vote for a white party and have the name pretoria stat the same- they legally are well within their limits. But yes, I agree- they don't. Only because they identify most with a black party. Just because their views aren't the same as yours- it doesn't mean there's a flaw in democracy when its applied to african people. You have to be realistic in your approach hey, you can't be in a dream world. Your views are not universally correct- some (most) may disagree.

      Rob - 2012-03-23 15:31

      Oh, Neto, so you are 3rd year university and you don't know the difference between irony and sarcasm!! I suspected we should take your reasoning with a pinch of salt. Not worth much!

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 15:56

      Hey rob. I guess attacking mistakes like the difference between irony and sarcasm makes you feel smarter. Ignoring content and attacking my credibility. :) nice.

      Rob - 2012-03-23 16:20

      Neto, you are getting a complex! That was far from an attack. I was just pointing out that is not the only mistake you are making. Maybe you should rather sit back and learn, then you won't make so many mistakes.

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 17:13

      You won't stop for 1 second and tell me what those mistakes (which I didn't admit to) are. Obviously because I don't made the mistake between irony and sarcasm all my points are mistakes. So typical. Politicians who make good points are stupid cause they have expensive cars and don't speak in a british accent. Nationalisation isn't a good idea because julias malema spoke of it. That frame of mind is flawed rob. And really won't work on me. I'm a man who looks beyond pety things to find the truth.

      Koos - 2012-03-23 17:14

      Hehehe Neto, think I’m hilarious? No I’m not. That is what Zuma (the president with grade 5) and the ANC nationally proclaimed. Its right up there with the “rape a baby” cure for AIDS. Luckily I don’t have to say much but I have one more question for you: What would have happened if old BOB was white?

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 17:39

      Uncle Rob (I assume you're talking about mugabe) is secretly a hero to most african leaders for completely standing up to colonial rule. I'm not saying I agree with his methods but I agree with the need for a complete economic social transformation in Africa. If the president of zimbabwe was white then perharps it would look funny to see such a distincly african white man wants to rid africa of western control (that was a joke, rob). I think there's two sides to that story and the zimbabwean people were not compensated enough for the social injustces that occoured as a result of colonisation. You must becareful of the media and what they report from that country. The media in south africa is intensly neo-liberal.

      Rob - 2012-03-23 17:43

      I regret to inform you most of what you have espoused is very much grounded on very mistaken thinking and it would take too long to point out each one since you have had so much to say. Whose truth are you talking about? Your biased one or the truth that looks at the actual facts. By the way, when someone starts slanging about insults, then he knows he has lost it! Hey, have a nice day and life in Pretoria!

      Koos - 2012-03-23 17:57

      @Neto: "zimbabwean people were not compensated enough" Are you serious? BOB and friends gets the gold, the people get the shaft! ..... by choice? Colonial rule? Mind fixing a date to that statement? So we go from breadbasket to desert in a few years by African choice to defeat an enemy that was doing what exactly to Zim? Thus.. would it be fair to say that by choice, the African is more than willing to suffer and die as long as it is by a black hand? You are right, us Europeans aren’t meant to understand the African. Some things are best left alone. P.S. If Bob was white, he would be dead. That much I can assure you. I love quotes and here is one that reminds me of home: A fire consumes before them And behind them a flame burns. The land is like the garden of Eden before them But a desolate wilderness behind them, And nothing at all escapes them.

  • jpstrauss - 2012-03-23 14:16

    Are we going to change the names again when we become a Chinese colony?

      Irene - 2012-03-23 17:45

      Hoo Flung Dung. Actually they can all the roads that already. What a disgrace! Remember how beautiful the roads used to be?

  • Timothy - 2012-03-23 14:20

    All those names need to be changed i don`t know why we are negotiating finish en Klaar those names need to go

      Wim - 2012-03-23 19:56

      Yours too, sounds very white. Do you use hair straightener and skin lightener too?

      bluzulu - 2012-03-23 21:31

      If any of the names give recognition to unscrupulous characters charged with crimes against our humanity, then NO way. Now to pretoria , This country can't give recognition to this guy...........http://cape-slavery-heritage.iblog.co.za/2008/09/30/the-slave-roots-of-andries-pretorius-after-whom-pretoria-is-named/ No way; Now Tswane means....http://africanlanguages.com/south_africa/place_names.html Much more African for Africa.

      bluzulu - 2012-03-23 21:36

      @ Wim, eehhh.. Instead of posts with no value try this on for size mate, It was settled by first Europeans (In this case, Voortrekkers or Dutch colonist) in 1855. This was at the time Nomadic lands of the Indigenous people. However for 100's of years before this happened, the local Indigenous people called it Tswane. You see how history comes full circle?

      tobydt - 2012-03-24 00:05

      Bluzulu - Read your own articles before you post them next time. The article you linked stated that Pretorius' mother was a slave, not that he kept slaves. Better read articles before you link them next time :P

      Wim - 2012-03-24 10:52

      @bluzulu. A 3rd generation coolie living in New Zealand now have a voice in the renaming of Pretoria? It is almost as absurd as a 'majority', that is a couple of generation away from a canabalistic pre-literate society living in mud huts, pretending that they have the right to rename a city they never built.

      bluzulu - 2012-03-25 12:34

      @ Wim, Finally your true colours are revealed.The saddest item here is that your oofspring will be indoctrinated by your outdated views. The utilization of derogatory terms just ensures me were exactly you sit on the evolutionary ladder. I am actually a Fifth generation RSA and if the derogatory term if you have utilized pleases you , thats fine as this is also part of RSA history .......Grow up....

  • Kagiso Tlhakung - 2012-03-23 14:21

    someone tell me y the ANC is negotiating with the FF+...we should negotiate nothing with these ppl, South Africa is ruled us nw we dont want the names of the oppressors, we should name every street name in Tshwane by our struggle heroes. All the oppressor names must go...we want Motlanthe and Zuma streets. We want Sharpville street and we want to rename Roodepoort to Soweto extention, its our tym now.

      Koos - 2012-03-23 14:33

      Jaaaaaa Africa is indeed for Africans. History full of these stories.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-03-23 14:36

      Sadly not... South Africa is home to a diversity of people not just black... It is not "your time" now, that concept does not exist. Holding a grudge against white people is like drinking poison and then expecting the other person to die.

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 14:41

      :) I like that. I don't get why it makes others so angry...

      tobydt - 2012-03-23 15:06

      So white people can stop paying taxes then? No taxation without representation.

      Mohsin - 2012-03-23 15:20

      @Kagiso its people like u with Malema's mentality that if given the chance will drag this country in anarchy and poverty like the rest of Africa

  • Matthews - 2012-03-23 14:35

    why change names for sure

  • Sapepa - 2012-03-23 14:36

    At the end of WW2 there were places like Himmler street, Adolf Hitler square and other places named after Nazi officials. The Germans then changed those names at the fall of the Reich. Those names changed even though Nazi Germany is part of their history. Why then is it such a big deal in SA???????? In France the towns and cities have French names, in Japan they have Japanese name. It’s the same in China, Germany and other parts of the world. It’s very common for the town or city to be named in a language of the indigenous people of that land. In S.A there are plenty of major towns and cities with English and Afrikaans names. Why is it then such an issue when there is a proposal to name a city in an African name???????

      tobydt - 2012-03-23 14:49

      Pretoria is an African name.

      Nick - 2012-03-23 15:11

      sapepa here's a question for you how many names have changed for the right reasons how many towns over a 100 years old part of white history and culture has changed these places had nothing to do with apartheid or the np this was before the anglo boer war. Piet Retief a small town over a 100 years old had to change yet he was murdered what about Nelspruit founded on the nel brothers farm etc etc yet no English name like PE East London all British name have been touched

      Frank - 2012-03-23 15:31

      boer woman and children died by the thousands in british concentration camps,but this should just be forgotten?why haven`t afrikaans people moaned about english street names i wonder?

      neto.maape - 2012-03-23 15:47

      I like this. Pretoria may be an african name but it isn't an indiginous african name which reflects the majority who live in it. So it should be changed. I personally would name it after chris hani :)

      Koos - 2012-03-23 17:23

      Chris hani? And make it like that hospital!?!? Neto, are you even in South Africa?

      tobydt - 2012-03-23 17:27

      Chris isn't an 'indigenous' african name :p

      phathuchicos - 2012-03-23 18:05

      Pretoria is not an African name moron...

      Koos - 2012-03-23 18:13

      @The-Azanian: Correction - Pretoria is not a BLACK African name. You won't find another place in the world called Pretoria except in South Africa.

      phathuchicos - 2012-03-23 18:38

      The might be a small unkmown town in Netherlands by that name...

      tobydt - 2012-03-23 18:39

      Azanian - Hehehe, Pretoria is a named based on an African surname (Pretorius). You wount find the surname, or the name of the city anywhere else in the world. Because its African.

      tobydt - 2012-03-23 18:44

      Azanian - Um... nope. Why dont you check google before making a bigger fool of yourself.

      bluzulu - 2012-03-23 21:42

      It was called Tswana by the Locals before 1855 then Pretoria and now Tswana again, See how history circles itself...VIVA NEW RSA

      phathuchicos - 2012-03-24 01:19

      viva...

      tobydt - 2012-03-24 08:34

      The metropolis is called Tshwane, and the city is called Pretoria, problem solved.

  • Craig - 2012-03-23 14:44

    If you want your hero's to be represented on street names, why dont you just create new infrastructure ie roads, hospitals, police stations, etc etc, that way one can actually see what improvements have been created in the new South Africa WITH OUR TAX MONEY it is a complete waste of money to just change already created infrastructure. So I hope that is light bulb above your head. START CREATING NEW INFRASTRUCTURE, IMPROVE OUR COUNTRY AND CREATE NEW NAMES!!!!!!

  • andre.love.98 - 2012-03-23 14:51

    Re-naming the streets at the expense of the TAXPAYER! HUH! Spend the money where it's needed: Health, Education, Uplifting Poverty, Roads & Transport etc. Re-naming the so-called streets of "Apartheid" is just another smokescreen for the incompetence of our current government. There are far more pressing concerns that need tending to. Re-naming these streets is removing the history. So, what will happen should the DA win the next general elections? Will they too re-name all the "ANC" streets. All MP's in favour of re-naming the " APARTHEID" street names should pay for it out of their own pockets. For flip sake...move on. With all the new developments taking place Nationally, why don't they give the new developments new names. Why fix something that aint broke? WASTE, WASTE, WASTE!!!! Tip- All MP's to take a salary cut to fund the re-naming!

  • Mohsin - 2012-03-23 14:51

    If i may add y the hell did the name of Joburg General Hospital change to someone we dont even know

  • Kagiso Tlhakung - 2012-03-23 15:08

    how would u feel to wake up everyday and drive on streets named after ppl who killed ur parents, grandparents or bestfriends??? Its lyk waking up to see a murderer being glorified or exalted or praised for killing ur ppl. Df Malan, Verwoerd OMG y did the ANC take so long we gotta get rid of these asap...use a special tax on former apartheid gov employees and tax companies that benefited from apartheid. En for the record we dnt hate Afrikaners...they should jst admit that their forefathers are the ones who made all this mess en nw it must be fixed

      tobydt - 2012-03-23 15:16

      You mean the street in Durban named after the terrorist bomber? You forget that Afrikaners worked in the British colony after their daughters and wives were sent off to concentration camps. The boys were sent off to prison camps in India and other places. Far more Afrikaans people died in the boer wars than what were killed by the apartheid government.

      Wim - 2012-03-23 20:14

      How sure are you Verwoerd and Malan killed your ancestors, and not the brave Mthondo we Siswe cadres? You should read some history. As for "this mess": the forefathers of the whites did not make blacks, although understandably you would think so, since everything else you see around, were constructed by them. Mud huts and tin shacks excluded, of course. Although the sheet metal was probably stolen from some white.

      Nick - 2012-03-23 20:59

      haha you hypocritical idiot zondo murdered yet he gets things named after him the daughter of one his victims lives in the street renamed after him what about her

  • laurentia.hodge - 2012-03-23 15:12

    Will a new street name put food on YOUR table? Will a new street name give YOU better medical care? Will a new street name give YOU better education or work opportunities? Seriously - take a few minutes and think about it!!! As much as I understand why you, the "majority", wants it changed - South Africa is in no financial way to do it. We have way to many issues to be sorted out first - poverty, unemployment, poor medical care, etc. Sort this out first then we can talk about name changes!!!!

  • Timothy - 2012-03-23 15:32

    ANC please change all those street names that are named after the oppressors we do not want them anymore

      Wim - 2012-03-23 21:50

      Yours too, sounds very white. Do you use hair straightener and skin lightener too?

  • Franky - 2012-03-23 17:04

    Just 27 street names...Zuma, his 3-5 wives, 32-45 offspring, his girlfriend.. aoh, let change more of these names

  • Mark - 2012-03-23 17:38

    Our Tshwane mayor, that Ramaghopa fellow, is obviously a loose-cannon. He stated Pretoria would be Tshwane by end of 2012. I see he isn't even mentioned here. I wonder why...?

  • phathuchicos - 2012-03-23 18:03

    In order for Germany to shed off its hitler skin and join 21st century...they removed every nazi artifact and banned nazi culture. I don't see anything wrong with South Africa shedding pretoria, vooor, vorstss, apar-nazi artifact... look how great german is doing today under a new image, we also want that.

      phathuchicos - 2012-03-23 18:08

      what I like about this is that the names will be changed and nothing you will do about it suckers...we are tired of living in a european city without the european benefits...

      Koos - 2012-03-23 18:26

      Zim shedded it's farmers and look how good they are doing. You see Germany and Japan was helped by the US and the rest of the world. The same entities are weary of Africa and for good reason. You cannot compare the two. See the world needs Africa’s resources. They don’t need Africa. The Chinese understands this well. As far as the "shedding" goes, do you have any idea what it will cost to the us and the economy? Think of small things like letterheads right up to geographical databases. Why not build new roads and houses and name them? I sometimes wonder what that woman without a house thinks of a street name.

      tobydt - 2012-03-23 18:40

      Azanian - Oh really? This is like the 5th time the ANC has tried to change the name of Pretoria. And every single time they fail. They just keep making fools of themselves. And evidently, you as well.

      tobydt - 2012-03-23 18:41

      Correction, Pretoria is an African city. You can call a duck a cow, but dont expect the rest of the world to not laugh at you when you do.

      Koos - 2012-03-23 19:03

      @Azanian: You know, I can easily say that I’m tired of living in and European city with an African scourge..... but it just won’t have the same impact as your statement so I won’t say it.

      Nick - 2012-03-23 21:14

      haha why use a first world country 1 at the front of industrial innovation for over a century you seriously need to move from mandelaville in eastern cape to western cape so that you can get an education you are beyond uneducated the berlin wall only came down in 80's germany was divided between east and west you can find nazi memorabilia in gernamy

      phathuchicos - 2012-03-24 01:21

      nick how many braincells do you have comrade?

      Nick - 2012-03-24 06:20

      only need 1 then that will be let me see uhm 1 more than you , you are beyond stupid obviously never traveled further than venda yes you think it's a country next time do some research before posting you know nothing bet you don't even know germans speak german

  • Bennie - 2012-03-23 19:59

    As an Afrikaaner I am horrified by some of the comments on this site. Especially by those purported to be Afrikaaners. Lets get one thing straight, I do not see myself as an colonialist. After 400 years ihn this country I am am sure I can see myself as a citizen with full rights. Before blacks or whites this country belonged to the Khoe and the San. Just before my credentials gets taken into question. I have a honours degree in African history from UNISA. and is currently busy with my my masters. Most of my lecturers are black Africans by the way, and this is not my personal optional, but historical fact, backed up by archaeolic findings and not by populist opinion.What I am trying to say is that all off us have a place in this country, don't try to wipe out our history just because you can. If Blacks constitute 79% of the population, why do the ANC only have 64% 0f the representivety? It simply means that almost 4 out of 10 people in this country don't agree with them. Do we really want to make decisions that antagonise almost 40% of the population just to prove a point? Wher are the days of Madiba?

      phathuchicos - 2012-03-24 01:23

      khoi san what...face the facts and not spread the world with lies. it will save you.

      Nick - 2012-03-24 06:13

      yes you uneducated sundowns supporter the khoi and san here looong before you lot came from zambia zim congo etc

  • maseratifittipaldi - 2012-03-23 21:42

    The ANC is trying very hard to rewrite the history of South Africa. No matter how hard they try, they cannot wipe out the fact that the Afrikaner did a lot to develop this country. There was also a lot of sacrifice-probably more than came from the ANC. A lot of what the Afrikaner "leaders" did, was wrong and the names given to things;the statues of people, should be left as is to remind us of the total history-the achievements as well as the mistakes.

      phathuchicos - 2012-03-24 01:25

      you call that achievement...do you know how many lives have been lost through the hands of your ancestors...thats like saying hitler developed germany...if you cant come up with something realistic i suggest you go to bed...

      maseratifittipaldi - 2012-03-24 05:56

      The-Azanian : I don't know what you were thinking, but when I mention achievements, I meant achievements. The bad things were obviously wrong, but it will be a fool who says there were no positive achievements in our history.

  • bluzulu - 2012-03-24 08:44

    Mr. Kruger was on a third parties land fighting with another European colonist in Africa for African land. Common sense would advocate that both Colonist were wrong in their activities and any deaths from this event must be attributed to both GREEDY European monarchies. This event should have never taken place. All over the world European traders traded with black cultures for many decades then their GREEDY intentions became clear when they forced Indigenous people off their land.

      tobydt - 2012-03-24 09:25

      And this has got what to do with Pretoria?

      bluzulu - 2012-03-25 12:37

      Now that is back to the original people of the land the land can now be called it's original name. It has happened all over the world not just here in Africa, That's the connection,

  • Tony - 2012-03-24 10:57

    Skunkja - I note your concept of democracy - be reasonable and do it MY way. Its pr!cks like you that make this country the dump it promises to be. But then again, reading your past comments, I think you are either a troll or mentally challenged.

  • Martha St Clair - 2012-03-24 12:07

    Here's an idea, why not concentrate on something really important and build a school with the money instead. I don't care what a street or city is called, I just am completely irritated by the time and resources wasted on this. What do people really want, a new street sign or a new school???

  • Ron - 2012-03-24 13:18

    It is offensive to name anything after a person - dead or alive - as certain sectors of the community will always be offended by whoever is "honoured" in this way! Change this practice!

  • Leon - 2012-03-25 08:31

    Only if you commissioned it, planned it, built it and take care of it do you have the right to name it at all. The current regime did none of these and everything is in a state of dilapidation.

  • Melanie - 2012-03-25 08:39

    i will die defending pretoria - malema

  • john.duplessis2 - 2012-03-25 12:32

    “CIVILISATION" comes from the Latin 'civis' and pertains to people who live in and, inferentially, create cities. Question...Can Blacks therefore be considered as a civilised race, since they have never built a single city and, whenever they occupy human-built cities, they inevitably destroy them..? Does thieving, renaming and claiming something as your own simply because you are numerical superior makes you civilized?

      bluzulu - 2012-03-25 12:40

      Unfortunatly here in RSA we were legislated not to be included in building RSA and now it's our fault...Where does this thinking come from? It's like having a boxing match without allowing one opponent into the ring and the gloating about the win....A win cos; you were the only one in the ring....Does this make sense to you?

  • Marie - 2012-03-26 16:35

    All this money spent on changing the names of cities and street names amount to an astronomical amount of money which could be better spent on housing, electricity and the other basic needs of the poor living in informal settlements. This country is becoming a laugh a minute!!!

  • margaret.mead1 - 2012-03-28 08:56

    History is history. No matter what you do, you can't wipe out the past just by changing a name here and there. We need to respect each other's history, whether we perceive it as 'good' or 'bad'. There's no such thing - it's history. I believe the name Pretoria should stand. THe world knows that name. This is a sensitive matter and should be handled delicately, with respect and give and take. Let us not repeat the mistakes of the past, but use wisdom to create a better future for ALL.

  • Steve - 2012-03-28 08:58

    @Bluzulu. If you want to see GREED, check out the current government. Corruption and theft of the taxpayer's money has become an epidemic. Who cut your hair???

  • margaret.mead1 - 2012-03-28 09:03

    Leave the statue. It represents a time long before apartheid. Paul Kruger was way before that time. He represents the fight AGAINST colonialism. The guns have no link whatsoever to apartheid. Where is your education, some of you?

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