News24

Schoolboy 'raped' on rugby tour

2012-05-10 09:04

Cape Town - A 16-year-old boy from Tygerberg, Cape Town, was sexually assaulted on a school rugby tour, but authorities did nothing, Die Burger newspaper reported on Thursday.

The attack, which took place on March 17 between pupils of a high school in the city, was filmed on cellphones and widely distributed. It appeared to be part of initiation proceedings.

The victim's mother told Die Burger that the Edgemead High Schools' first team rugby had camped near Velddrift on the West Coast, and played a rugby match against a local school.

The boy was allegedly sexually assaulted with a broom handle and a banana later that night.

'Hysterical'

"On Friday night at around 11.30pm, my son sent me a 'please call me'," the mother said.

"He was hysterical and told me that the older boys wanted to shave his head... I insisted on speaking to them, but they told me I couldn't tell them what to do, and ended the call."

The boy then reportedly asked his rugby coach, Brandon Grant, for help, but he was told that he had to "stand up for yourself and be a man".

The next night, after the victim had gone to sleep, he was allegedly attacked in his bed and raped. The attackers also shaved his eyebrows, squirted toothpaste up his nose and drew a phallic object on his forehead.

The victim's parents removed their traumatised son from the school and laid a charge at the Bothasig police station on March 20.

Police told them on Wednesday that the perpetrators would not be prosecuted, as the boy had not been examined by a district surgeon at the time of the assault.

According to the boy's mother, she was originally told by police that a medical examination was unnecessary, as the photographic evidence would be enough. The school's headmaster told Die Burger the school had held an "internal disciplinary hearing", and that several boys had been put on temporary suspension.

The Western Cape education department said it will investigate the incident.

Comments
  • npretorius2 - 2012-05-10 09:12

    Wow!! I understand initiations is part of being accepted to a group, but these kids went waay to far!! It's criminal, and should be treated as such! It only takes one psycho in a group to drive normal people to do stuff they wont usually do...

      Squeegee - 2012-05-10 10:53

      The coach should be arrested.

      Narike - 2012-05-10 11:44

      @npretorius2: This is what I just sent to him: "Coach" B, Being a coach means being responsible not only for developing players to the best of their abilities and getting the best results for the team – you are also directly responsible for the safety of each of your team members, ESPECIALLY during away games and ON CAMPS. What you allowed to happen to a 16-year-old boy during the Velddrif rugby camp amounts to criminal negligence. Shame on you

      Tamaranui - 2012-05-10 12:39

      Another criminal act completed under the guise of an initiation. Disgraceful behaviour, Hope the Criminals are appropriately charged. Be strong Young man.

      Eduard - 2012-05-10 12:45

      What the hell is wrong with SA??????

      Jason - 2012-05-10 14:42

      Look im all for initiations, I believe they are an integral part of becoming a young man, and being accepted into the group. A right of passage, but this goes way beyond that! WAY WAY WAY beyond!

      Jason - 2012-05-10 14:47

      @ Alicia, Sodomy is not a deep seated tradition for rugby initiations!! you are painting all rugby players and all rugby schools with this rather sick brush!

  • lulama - 2012-05-10 09:14

    Hope the boy remains strong. What a sick country we live in...am not religious but we need Jesus in this country.

      Jessica - 2012-05-10 10:25

      We do need a divinely intervention in this lawless country of ours. It's so sad

  • BergieSean - 2012-05-10 09:16

    Can't believe what i am reading! Fire the coach immediately.

      Angela - 2012-05-10 09:56

      @lulama LOL one minute advocating Jesus, the next calling for blood! Agree the coach should be severely punished but killed? Just endorses violence as a solution , the same thinking as the perps of this heinous crime.

      Merven - 2012-05-10 10:04

      Well, when there were an article about boys raping a bus seat everybody thought it was funny, not realising that kids are brought up with the idea that rape is funny and or fun.

      markdoubleu - 2012-05-10 12:53

      @Angela, lulama's suggestion is perfectly in keeping with that particular superstition, as far as I can see... Sodom and Gomorrah ring any bells?

      Gert - 2012-05-10 12:58

      Angela--the fact that the kid's mind is basically murdered by this act against his will justifies to to have this coach removed to a 6 ft. deep hole. Those culprits must be sent to Afghanistan and given to the Taliban to give proper punishment. The names of those culprits must be made known and the journalist who can disclose that should be given a reward. They don't deserve protection as "minors"

  • Marius Koen - 2012-05-10 09:16

    Edgemead again. Lots of funny stuff going on there.

      ches.maduray - 2012-05-10 09:32

      What do you mean by 'again' Swapie? Were there more incidents that you've heard of? It's totally disgusting. Saying they 'suspended' the kids....this should go to criminal court.

      lauren.fletcher.za - 2012-05-10 14:53

      Kevin Sadie: "racist" incident happened in 2003. I know because I was a pupil at the time.

  • Denny - 2012-05-10 09:17

    The first people to perform initiations on others were never initiated themselves yet they always claim to have "team spirit" or whatever the supposed goal of the initiation was. I have little issue with harmless hazing but episodes like this were common at my high school too and were just as disgraceful then.

      Nigel - 2012-05-10 13:52

      But what is harmless hazing and when does it become harmful bullying and assault?

  • Kevin - 2012-05-10 09:18

    a girl gets raped and filmed and it trends on twitter, and has a high profile court case, a boy gets raped and humiliated on film, and the perpetrators get a temporary suspension, and he is forced to leave the school and nothing happens??? Humanity is failing

  • Dickie - 2012-05-10 09:20

    initiation is a load of s**t

  • Sanda - 2012-05-10 09:20

    A barbaric act indeed, if it happened to my son i swear id literally kill someone.

  • Marion - 2012-05-10 09:22

    This is bloody disgusting. Poor kid. Hope that he gets the justice he deserves. I would kill someone who did that to one of my sons with my bare hands. If Brandon Grant reacted as alleged he should also be severely dealt with.

      Amanda - 2012-05-10 10:13

      jes u right. and the same happen @ school's when kids complain @ the teacher thy get told to go sit or ignored .then thy react themself if thy get tease or bully .then ur child is the wrong one and go to jail or punished ,not the focker who started it. SO WHAT MUST OUR KIDS DO . THE EDUCATOR'S AND COACH DON'T GIVE A DAMN.HOW PATHETIC

      Diana - 2012-05-10 11:29

      @Marion maybe they do believe a rape with a foreign object is not a "proper" rape? Well they can try and experience it themselves...

      Tamaranui - 2012-05-10 12:40

      Good day Queen Marion,

  • Diana - 2012-05-10 09:23

    Sometimes a man who has to stand up for himself needs help from the ones in position to provide him with that type of help and nothing is wrong with asking for it. Mr coach is as guilty as a gang of rapists. P.S. Authorities' task is to solve the matter and to serve the justice and if the victim gets such a "professional" response from them as described above why you shouldnt serve it with your own hands?

  • Pixi3kid - 2012-05-10 09:24

    The time when boys COULD "stick up for themselves and be a man" is looong gone! in todays life if you so that, you get killed! And WTH, when a child cries out for help... HELP THEM! It is your job as a coach or a teacher to do so! I would probably go to jail if something like this happens to my kids... but i will sit for life while they get out and do it again and again and again! and i blame the parents in this matter, dont you teach your child about whats right and wrong? this is not naughty teenage behavior, this is just right out Evil!!

  • Anakin - 2012-05-10 09:26

    A bunch of savage bullies unable to control theselves in a civilized manner. I would also like to hear what the 'holy' rugby fraternity has to say about this - rugby as a sport has become 'holy'. Science and progress means nothing, just as long as there's rugby on tv. Would this happen in a golf or tennis club -- no -- it sounds ridiculous right? Then WHY should it be permitted to happen just because it's a rugby club? One day this victim may just turn around and shoot dead all of his attackers with a gun, and I wouldn't blame him one bit for it. There's no more place for violent bullies in our society, and the coach has a lot of explaining to do, after being fired (yes: fired from his post).

  • sika.ncamane - 2012-05-10 09:28

    The coach should be charged with negligence....

  • Mack - 2012-05-10 09:30

    Absolutely disgusting. Initiation is usually a good way to build character and to be accepted into a group, but what those bastards did to that kid is deplorable. What's happening with the world.

  • Nigel - 2012-05-10 09:30

    this is shocking & horrific, if this happened to my son, I would not be able to hold myself back, those kids would be very sorry. I hope that perpetrators are punished severely.

      Colin - 2012-05-10 10:07

      I share your sentiment Nigel, but my anger wouldn't be at the boys, I don't believe it's okay for adults to fight with kids, I'd be going after that coach in a fashion I'm not sure I wish to describe.

  • pule.ramokoma - 2012-05-10 09:33

    All people who are doing this rape they wanted to heros, its a high time that justice department should pull up their socks and give harsh sentences

  • Greg - 2012-05-10 09:33

    Temporary suspension is an unacceptable response to the deed committed by these boys. A far more harsh measure needs to be taken, including criminal prosecution. The reaction by the police to the charge laid is also not acceptable. This needs to be investigated. The coach also needs to be suspended and his role in the matter investigated. If his actions are found wanting, he should be dismissed. Society should not tolerate this kind of behaviour as is unacceptable.

      eil33nn - 2012-05-10 10:10

      And i think the boys should be charged as adults. I think by the age of 16 up you know what rape is and that it is wrong.

  • jaysonpaul.beckwith - 2012-05-10 09:34

    Barbaric, disgusting. This is beyond comprehension. I feel sick to my core. What the hell is going on in this country?????

  • Dakey - 2012-05-10 09:38

    This 'mentality' is rife, particularly in boys schools and hostels which is why I'll never send my son to one. But you know what, it starts with the Springboks and professional rugby players who's exploits aren't publicised, but well known. And not just today's springboks, these things have been going on even during the apartheid era. If these guys could just set a decent example of how REAL MEN behave, we wouldn't have these issues in the first place. Goodness man, I'm actually afraid to having my son even play 1st team rugby now!

      Dakey - 2012-05-10 11:12

      ** Let me just clarify because I'm not at all suggesting boys get raped in boys schools or hostels, nor am I saying this is the direct fault of the Springboks, I happen to be a big fan of John Smit. I heard recently from the horses mouth about some of the exploits of certain (perhaps many) provincial rugby teams back in the days of the curry cup. From prostitues that accompany the players on tour to simpy exploits out in clubs. I'm not even going to start with the cricketers. My point is that this 'initiation' rubbish is not invented by the boys, rather an informal 'rite of passage' with no clear rules, perhaps passed down from generation to generation. It needs either to be stopped completely or supervised by an adult. Leaving it up to boy who hear things from other boys/brothers/parents. Regardless, make an example out of these boys. They've scarred another boy for life, period. Fire the coach on the spot and never allow him to be put a position of authority over children ever again.

      Gert - 2012-05-10 12:41

      dAKEYRAS If this is true you have opened a dirty smelly can of worms and many a wife of past sport hero's will also like to find out more. I would like to know more as I am sure other members of the public also, that those sportsmen that we admired are ACTUALLY SICK MINDED CRIMINALS. TO ALL PARENTS---DON'T LET YOUR KID PLAY RUGBY OR CRICKET.

  • gemmaleigh.evans.3 - 2012-05-10 09:40

    Bloody savages!!! What are our future generations coming to?!?! What the hell kind of men are we raising?! This poor boy will be traumatized for the rest of his life as a result of a bunch of hooligans wreckless behavior!! Those stupid boys need to be charged criminally!! And shame on their parents if they condone this sort of beastial behavior!!

  • Garth - 2012-05-10 09:42

    in this world that has lost its way, we are victoms by our silence, if we see an evil such as this and do nothing about it are we not then moral cowards and failures to our children, what have we become when we cannot protect our children, the time for action is now, act, demand action expell and procecute all guilty, there is video footage, enough evidence, this act constitutes chid porno, charges should be laid, the school should be under investigation, these are the custodians of our children, our precious gifts from G-D. meaning of custodian is the school responsible for holding or looking after valuable property our children on behalf of us. have we failed not only our children but ourselves.

  • Nkosnathi - 2012-05-10 09:43

    WTF!!!! Really, what is happening to our society when EVERYDAY we read of these sick incidents.Just this week alone News24 has carried at least a dozen stories on sexual crimes.People are losing there respect for their fellow human beings, if this behavior becomes 2nd nature to them and considered normal.Harsher sentences have to be a necessity, to curb this now.All this house arrest and suspended sentences is not getting the message across.In jail these criminals will get their "just rewards" Im totally disgusted!!!

  • Yvonne - 2012-05-10 09:45

    It is disgusting that there is so much pressure on parents and children to shut up and get on with life when something like this happens. This attitude is supported by principals, police and the courts. It is time that this attitude changes. Our men today are the product of these initiations and cruel practices. Why do you think crimes against women are so high? Give me sensitive and caring boys any time instead the jocks of this world.

  • Angela - 2012-05-10 09:47

    Savages!

  • tashakriel - 2012-05-10 09:47

    Being an Edgemedian, it is very close to home. I was actually considering sending my so to EHS. Going to watch the outcome of this very attentively. If these boys get away with this and the principle does not act on such blatant abuse, then EHS is not the right choice of high school for my kids. This is something all prospective EHS parents should think about.

      tashakriel - 2012-05-10 10:02

      That's just the thing Kevin. We are left with little choice or no choice other than EHS. Then it will have to be Southern Suburbs hence the action that is taken by the principle and the values that he chooses to display here will ultimately shape my thinking. So I wait....

      Marion - 2012-05-10 10:54

      @tasha - may be wise to find another school for your son, irrespective of the outcome of this case. There could well be other undesirable acts being perpetrated on youngsters in the guise of 'initiation'.

      Bernadette - 2012-05-10 13:53

      I have a son in Edgemead and I am disgusted.....Mr Grant should be fired..

  • gembleton1 - 2012-05-10 09:48

    The coach who is the guardian of these kids when they are away on tour should be held responsible, the comment of “be a man” douse not cut it, the education department should with immediate effect, fire the coach and expel any pupil that was involved, this is not acceptable, what are our children turning into, thugs and rapist, we see it on the news every day, it’s time that corporal punishment and discipline was reinstated at schools.

      danie.vanderlith - 2012-05-10 10:31

      The coach cannot at all times have his eye on the pupils. Some or other time they will have to go sleep or be alone. One can't keep the coach fully responsible for the pupils actions. Yes he was their to watch over them, but he can't be with them 24/7. The pupils involved must be held responsible. Its not fair to say that the department must fire the coach. I don't know the man, but put put yourself in his shoes. It could have happend to anybody, it takes only minutes to do such a horror act. Investigate the matter fully, and if he was in the wrong, by all means.

      Squeegee - 2012-05-10 12:17

      Danie - read the article - he did not act when he was asked for help. Fire him!

  • Gillian - 2012-05-10 09:49

    Bullies are not born...they are created. Observe their parents and families and you will find some sick sh@t going on at home....

      eil33nn - 2012-05-10 10:13

      Not always. Sometimes the parents are oblivious to what their kids get up too.

      Elizabeth - 2012-05-10 10:20

      I concur 1000%.... We were given hidings with a leather strap or 'rottang' and God helped you if you dared to complain or even look for sympathy from teacher or someone at school - most of the times even teachers really meted out punishment to us same as our parents and we are much better individuals/citizens with a conscience and working hard to earn a decent living, not standing on corners begging and blaming whatever else on apartheid, colonialism, etc. etc. Moron should rather blame it on reflection looking back at him when looking in the mirror....

      Jacqui - 2012-05-10 11:38

      Gillian, as an ex-teacher I can tell you that confronting a parent about the behavior of his/her child is like risking your life. Their children are always perfect and not capable of any wrong doing. While parents keep thinking their children are devine creatures, there is no way they will admit to being less than perfect parents.

  • Manu - 2012-05-10 09:49

    These initiations should be made a criminal offence. I fail to see the purpose of these dehumanising rituals.

  • Gillian - 2012-05-10 09:50

    Bullies are not born, they are created. Observe their parents and families (or lack thereof) for awhile, and you will find some seriously sick, dysfunctional sh@t.

  • eftichia.campos - 2012-05-10 09:51

    I'm outraged!!!!

  • elizjoss - 2012-05-10 09:51

    It is disgusting that the headline has the word 'raped' in inverted commas. He WAS RAPED!

      Marion - 2012-05-10 10:55

      @Elizabeth - I noted that too and I agree 100% with you.

  • Morne Marvyn Joseph - 2012-05-10 09:51

    Is it a fashion thing now that they do this ?

  • Adil Smit - 2012-05-10 09:51

    Sexual assault is a crime and a police matter. And children and parents should be able to trust coaches and headmasters.

  • clearly.kgatla - 2012-05-10 09:56

    What is goin on with the youth of South Africa?such behaviour is disgustnig n jus shows that in our country u get 2 b a criminal and walk free our country is going down the drain and it pains me as a young adult in ths country that i belong here what ever happnd 2 d sprit of ubhuntu?the rigths our parents fought for?*sies maan*this poor boy will have the scars of this memory 4 the rest of his life and all they get is tempry suspension *nxa*they should rot in hell

  • desree.booysen - 2012-05-10 09:58

    We are living in da last days, we should really pray 4 our younger brothers an sisters.

  • Rick - 2012-05-10 10:00

    I also blame the teachers who were responsible for these boys while on tour. It is alleged that alcohol was also involved. Clearly no supervision.

      Vernon - 2012-05-10 11:14

      true. besides,which sober person would do this?

  • Colin - 2012-05-10 10:03

    What these boys did to a fellow pupil is tragic indeed, and I hope the victim will one day recover from the emotional trauma he now has to endure. To severely punish the students however as is being suggested here is a little two edged for me. Many of these rugby bullies are as dumb as they come and are following a tradition. What irks me is that the coach must know about these things. If one looks closely enough there will be enough evidence to suggest gross negligence on his part. If the boys are left to sleep alone in a dorm at that age, this is a problem while on a school rugby tour. Was there no adult in the room? Send the perpetrators for counselling while banning them from rugby and help them see where they went wrong! As for the Coach, and the school for that matter, bring a civil suit against them. If my daughters go on a school trip that I sign an indemnity for, it would be of great discomfort if they are left alone in a dorm overnight without adult supervision! As for that coach, you don't tell a boy to 'be a man' especially when you're the adult and already supposed to be a man you twat! To the family of the victim, I wish you all a full recovery from what must be a devastating blow. Your son must be going through hell yes, but I also understand as a parent that you must be suffering greatly too. All of the best!

  • brenda.yelvertonburns - 2012-05-10 10:03

    As a parent, I know exactly what I would do to the boys involved, and the coach. It would not be pretty.

  • Maria - 2012-05-10 10:03

    Rape, rape, and more rape. That's all we seem to hear lately. Must be something in the food, or a virus in the brain?

      Aphiwe - 2012-05-10 10:36

      Maria I was saying the exact same thing the other day, is it in our food, in our water or sumin, n how cum its becum so prevalent amongst teenagers... Wow!

  • daniel.w.gie - 2012-05-10 10:04

    I am shocked and outraged that this should happen . As a parent , I hope that the principal of Edgemead high will get this matter sorted out , It would never have been allowed in Dr Venter's time , do something , get that coach to explain his stupidity . He was responsible for the chilren on the tour .

      Colin - 2012-05-10 10:19

      The principle should also be under investigation I'm afraid. He is responsible for each of the educators at his school. Unfortunately management comes with the responsibility of being managed for those who report to you. The captain of the ship kinda thing. Effective management would ensure no teacher left kids to their own devices at any time during a school tour, even if he wasn't on tour!

      Adil Smit - 2012-05-10 10:34

      This is a police matter.

  • kayla.moletsane - 2012-05-10 10:05

    If WE the generation of TODAY culd jst stop this classification bcoz 1st of all we wre nt part of ths apartheid tht is nt our history, y cnt we creat our own history 4 the nxt generation?? is it always gona b a racial mtta everytym sumthing hppnds btwn a so called \black\ nd a so called \white\?? Wat if tht tour was of only one race nd tht boy got raped wuld u still hve said its a racial issue??? These ppl commenting nd say its a racial manner shuld actually realize tht this is nt bwt race bt the society we live in... U wre nt thr in the apartheid times nd we tryin 2 fix this.. GROW up!!!

      Jacqui - 2012-05-10 11:43

      Kayla, you mean to tell me this is apartheid's fault? Your letter is rather badly written. Read the article again.

      kayla.moletsane - 2012-05-10 12:11

      Im nt saying it apartheid's fault hre u misread this, im toking bwt the ppl who r gng on bwt how racist this is.. Wat im tryna say 2 them is thy SHOULDN'T look at this manner in tht way coz gtting raped doesnt matta by hu of whch skin colour is rape

  • Riëtte - 2012-05-10 10:09

    Absolutely barbaric! What the hell is going on with our youth if they find this type of degradation funny?? I'm speechless.

  • Jacques - 2012-05-10 10:09

    That's what happens when you have a bunch of hormone-driven, lawless hooligans cooped up in groups for any period of time. The 'rugby culture' of 'the popular, manly tough guys' gives these animals a sense of entitlement to do whatever they want. Disgusting.

  • moses.lewis.39 - 2012-05-10 10:15

    i think we as the twitter and facebook should develop another culture to bring these purpertrators to book y putting pressure on the relevant authorities, because i feel the boys pain ,but as a father i can identify with his dads emotion in wanting to murder ,exterminate these thugs like the cockroach that thy are. for some fathers would actually go to these extend and thus a good law abiding citizen will go rogue due to a failing system.

  • Pravda - 2012-05-10 10:15

    if we brought back legistated corporal punishment into the schools, this would not have happend. by legislated i mean have a strict regulation as to what type of corporal punishment, and that does not mean beating a kid stupid with a garden hose. and as for the sadistic bested that calls himslf a coach, i do not even think he did the army. i think he played tiddlywinks with his classmates anyway. or was it his rugby mates???

      Elizabeth - 2012-05-10 10:27

      Spot on!!!

      Adil Smit - 2012-05-10 10:33

      Violent crimes still happen in countries that have the death penalty. So no, your argument does not hold.

      Carla - 2012-05-10 10:34

      Death penalty - corporal punishment...2 very different things.

  • lebogang.molefo - 2012-05-10 10:15

    It's sad that there is a young man who got violated and got his dignity stripped from him yet all people care about is race. Does it matter if he's white, black, Indian, Chinese? Does it matter if the perpetrators are of the same race? Instead of fighting each other we should be fighting the evil that is happening in our country.... You might not like what I have to say but you can't change the fact that I said it

      Jacky - 2012-05-10 10:41

      You are so right. Let's get our priorities right

      Pravda - 2012-05-10 11:33

      well said.

      Nigel - 2012-05-10 11:44

      you are so right Sir, but I would like to know then, why do so many Black people always bring Race into these things?

      Jacqui - 2012-05-10 11:46

      Lebogang, the majority here didn't mention race at all. One silly individual who hate whites did. For the rest, I agree with you.

      lebogang.molefo - 2012-05-10 12:22

      @Jacqui thanks for pointing that out I meant it for those who mentioned race and for those who are about to mention it @Nigel lol I'm a woman and I don't know maybe we should ask them

  • Johan - 2012-05-10 10:20

    This makes me so sad. :(

  • Johan - 2012-05-10 10:22

    Living out their sick fantasies. Sounds like bored rich kids with too much internet access. I think the headmaster should be suspended and prosecuted. Raped, I don't know, but in jail that would be a possibility.

  • Carla - 2012-05-10 10:26

    Temporary suspension???? Yeah, that'll teach them. WTF???

  • mam.afful - 2012-05-10 10:30

    Im a mother of 2 boys,and my prayer is that God must protect them from this kind of brutallity. My heart goes out to the parents of this boy, may God give you the necessary strength to see you through this trying time..This is unacceptable, suspension is not enough..They should go to jail and never see daylight again.

      Samantha - 2012-05-10 11:01

      I have 2 young boys too, who I also want involved in sports, but with all the headlines I am reading lately, its terrifying!- how do we trust these coaches, teaches, children these days with our precious kids :(

      Marion - 2012-05-10 11:35

      @Balstrome - I agree with most of what you said but 'daily contact via email'? Where in heavens name would teachers get the time to respond to daily emails?

      Nirosha - 2012-05-10 12:17

      Balstrome you need to understand that some people's religious beliefs are all that they have, they hold on to that even when there is no hope. It gives them the strength to see another day. You might not agree but you don't have to condemn.

      Samantha - 2012-05-10 13:31

      @Balstrome- I already do those things apart from emails- I instead go directly to the school if I am not happy with something or need a clearer understanding of the situation- I never leave my child at a swimming lesson etc, I would rather wait and make sure he comes home with me- but what do you do in this instant? It was a rugby tour, which I doubt parents were allowed to tag along, - this is very scary, for any parent, a school is(sorry WAS) supposed to be a second home, where your child is safe, where they will learn and grow - how do they achieve this when they are being abused, and the very people they go to for help, tell them to "stand up for themselves and face the music"- ?