News24

Mulder is rewriting history - YCLSA

2012-02-19 21:36

Johannesburg - Freedom Front Plus leader Pieter Mulder is trying to rewrite history and suggest that settlers and colonialists found South Africa as a "house to let", the Young Communist League of SA said on Sunday.

"The fact is that land was dispossessed violently and through bloodshed, and ultimately legislated in 1913, leaving Africans with no choice but to subject themselves to wage exploitation in the mining industry," YCLSA secretary Buti Manamela said in a statement on its lekgotla.

"Such utterances are nothing but archaic white denialism and [it] will defeat the very process of land redistribution and land restitution."

On Wednesday, Mulder suggested in Parliament that black "Bantu-speaking" people had no historical claim to 40% of the country.

"Africans in particular never in the past lived in the whole of South Africa," he said during debate on President Jacob Zuma's State of the Nation address.

Zuma later warned Mulder to tread carefully on the emotive issue of land reform. On Sunday, the YCLSA called for Mulder's resignation as deputy minister of agriculture, forestry and fisheries.

"We do not believe that a person such as Pieter Mulder should serve in government, especially in his responsibility in agriculture and forestry," said Manamela.

Resignation

"We call for his immediate resignation as he does not share the overall objectives of government, or for the president to release him from his duties."

However, Mulder - in his capacity as the leader of the Freedom Front Plus - reacted later on Sunday saying the league had twisted the comments he had made in Parliament.

"I referred in my speech to the historical acquisition of land. This argument is at present purposefully being presented in a twisted manner."

He said his argument was that the Khoi and the San were the first residents in Southern Africa. Thereafter groups from the North and from the South moved inland and forced the Khoi and the San to dryer parts.

"These northern and southern groups can not lay claim to the whole land. I referred furthermore to food security and the problems that emotional slogans about land in the fulfilling of this task are causing," he said.

Judiciary

In its statement, the YCLSA said concerns about the use of judicial institutions for political gain were also raised at its lekgotla.

"We support the proposed regulations for members of the judiciary to declare their business interests and benefits like all other public office bearers," it said.

It would campaign for constitutional amendments to require the judiciary to be subjected to popular and democratic elections.

"If they serve the public, then the public must determine who should serve in such offices at all levels of the judicial system."


Comments
  • Vusi - 2012-02-19 21:43

    Surely Mulder has the right to state facts the way they are? Why should he resign? What twisted version of the truth would suit them then?

      Herman - 2012-02-19 21:49

      Yes,and why should I concern them, since the communistic view is that all belong to the state?

      Sean - 2012-02-19 21:56

      Facts are facts !

      Graham - 2012-02-19 21:58

      I disagree with Mulder. I think the DA, YCLSA and the ANC were correct to criticise his comments..

      Graham - 2012-02-19 22:13

      Whatever you think of Mulder and his comments, one thing is clear - the comments are not going to help develop farming in the country - he should be promoting apprenticeship schemes for young South Africans as deputy agriculture minister. What is the point in arguing about history? We are all South African. We need to work together to get rid of poverty and unfairness. Making incendiary statements won't help...

      Sean - 2012-02-19 22:15

      Nothing wrong with his comments if they are true ! Many things he said make clear sense and I don`t give a sh@t if it doesn`t suit ``some people``

      Kevin - 2012-02-19 22:37

      Makatika you really dont get it. Vusi has an opinion which rightly or wrongly is his to express and your puerile aspersions as to his home life reflect on you, your education and ignorance. READ this "I may disagree strongly with your views but I will defend your rjght to express them."

      Mtshezi Yonk'insipho Iyawasha Mkhize - 2012-02-19 22:41

      Vusi please have some balls, n get in touch with reality, all is wrong with ur thinking! Uyadakwa....

      Vusi - 2012-02-19 22:52

      @Graham. Mulder didn't start the land debate, the President did in his SOTN speech. Mulder said 40% of our country didn't belong to us blacks and he is right. Is he not? Here is my take on the land issue. My father wanted to farm 20 years ago. He leased some land and through hard work managed to buy his own farms. Not a cent assistance from the Government. Why should it be different for anybody else? We need to provide food for the nation. The Government cannot afford to be setting up each and every farmer with equipment and expertise. Our problem in this country is, we have 45 Million people wanting the government to provide for them. They keep crying about jobs, but it never crosses their minds that they could start their own little business and create jobs. The definition of a Government should be explained to the voters. They are all living in a dream! A Government is there to govern us and see that we adhere to the constitution. It isn't a massive employment agency or a welfare organisation. The voters however have elected NOT to see it this way because sitting in the sun hoping for a council job is so much easier than working.

      Graham - 2012-02-19 22:59

      When a farmer is approaching retirement age, there should be the option to take on a young apprentice; the apprentice could be selected through an agricultural scholarship scheme. He/she would learn the ins and outs of farming and running the business etc for three years, at which point the government would step in and buy the farm off the farmer, giving it to the apprentice. The apprentice would then own the farm, but would be required to pay the government back over the course of say twenty years (or fewer if feasible), using profits from the farm - rather like a mortgage. The scheme would be voluntary for all parties involved. The country would get land transformation, the apprentice a farm, and the farmer money for the farm he owned, as well as help at the end of his career with the running of the farm. Some farms are so large, it might be possible to have several apprentices and create several farms post apprenticeship. The apprentices shortlisted would reflect the racial demographics of South Africa as well as encouraging more young women to consider a farming career.

      Vusi - 2012-02-19 23:06

      @Mtshezi Why don't you come around and we compare who has the biggest balls? There is nothing wrong with my thinking. As a matter of fact if you would sit down with me and listen to what I have to say, you might have a future. You cannot take land from people who have rightfully paid for it. That is wrong. Your next problem is feeding the nation. If our agriculture doesn't continue the way it has been, then MANY jobs would be lost. Not every man in this country has the luxury to comment on Internet with a computer. Very many need to perform manual labour to feed their kids and send them to school. Do you know anything about agriculture? Do you know how many jobs are involved on the farms? Do you know if we don't produce meat and maize, that we will have to import it? Do you know how importation of goods work? Do you know the term balance of payment?

      Vusi - 2012-02-19 23:24

      HA HA HA Makatika! You are so funny! Our dear IFP leader is another stupid old man I can't stand. Yes I am a Zulu and yes I think Limpoopoo is a toilet! But how can you possibly justify R2.7 Billion stolen in Limpopo and tell me the province is being managed for the good of all its citizens? Just answer me that one please!!!!!!!!!!! If you can justify that, then I want to listen to your views, but until then, please don't mention anybody in that Limpopo government to me.

      Sipho - 2012-02-20 04:50

      if I is president, everyone will get BIG farms with fruits & vegetbles, game farms with lots of LanddRovers, cattle farms with plenty cows, and 72 virginians!!!! Vote Sipho for presidents!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Dirk - 2012-02-20 07:31

      Limpopo a toilet? A VERY INSOLVENT one

      Elle-Black - 2012-02-20 07:45

      @ Makatika unfortunately there are many like uMavusana i=on this site who are so destroyed by the principles of apartheied that they feel up until this day they need the approval of caucasians at any cost,even when the caucasians are showing blatant disregard for them,they will still strive to get their approval. Anyway Pieter Mulder and any other Afrikaner are not credible sources of historic events lets not forget that they are the oppressor,so why would they tell the truth?

      Ryan - 2012-02-20 10:24

      @ Graham Thanks for attempting to come up a solution, however I have a few issues with your view 1) Why should a retiring farmer sell off his hard worked farm to the government instead of leaving it to his own kids 2) Very few farms are profitable enough to be morgaged and paid for by proceeds of the farm Government should incentivise partnerships between sucessful white farmers and emerging farmers - only through YEARS of on farm mentorship can the skills be transfered and longterm empowerment be achieved without threatening food security.

      Skhanyo - 2012-02-20 10:50

      vusi you never cease to amaze me with your crazy comments! hayi suka maan! what Mulder said is not a fact and will never be. He is just a settler and knows nothing about what he was saying. Africa is for Africans, definitely not for settlers who came here in 1652...when they came here they brought no land with them and they know that. I have a problem with people like you and Mulder who distort truth for personal interests. Your personal interest is to get thumbs up from whites! you are a sell-out!

      Graham - 2012-02-20 14:22

      @Ryan I take your second point but regarding your first, read my post again - the scheme would be entirely voluntary - farmer can leave the farm to his kids.. if he wanted cash for retirement the scheme could prove attractive..

      Nick - 2012-02-20 14:27

      @jojo you're an idiot in that case stop wearing white mans clothing ,internet ,language,electricity, medicine, cars etc etc start wearing your mountain goat skin and go lie under a tree that's where you were found back in the day

      NrGx - 2012-02-20 14:54

      @JoJo- go back to school, learn about South African history, then perhaps you would the knowledge to participate in a debate. For now...you rae the weakest link..GOODBYE!

      Johnny - 2012-02-20 15:02

      "The side that wins the war writes the history"

      Warren - 2012-02-20 23:06

      @ Graham: Just for my own information... are you a farmer? If not, what do you do for a living???

      Smell - 2012-02-21 08:52

      Big picture - White Afrikaners and Black communists are exchanging their perspectives on a very important matter in a fairly civilized manner in the parliament of a democratic South Africa 360 years after Jan van Riebeeck settled the Cape. We are not gearing up for sectarian war - except perhaps the inevitable few nutbars sprinkled throughout humanity. Everyone is wearing clothes and speaking to each other without needing a translator. Really amazing. Sometimes we overlook the miracle.

      Graham - 2012-02-21 16:45

      @Warren: I am not a farmer, but members of my family farm (citrus).

  • Sinudeity - 2012-02-19 21:49

    ANC MP's refused to resign with far worse transgressions. As for the young communists, they are a dying political ideology.

      Sean - 2012-02-19 22:44

      All those youth movements should be ``abolished`` They only corrupt the uneducated youth and are no good for this country .

      alansmartSnr - 2012-02-19 23:33

      You want land.. I swear to God that I (or at least somebody) will give every citizen in S.A a piece of land at some stage or another. This is not an idle promise..everybody is entitled to it. It will be 7 foot long, 1 & 1/2 yards wide and at least 6 feet deep. Just wait and see if it doesn't happen some day. So stop bitching about it. You'll get your share. LOL

      Francois - 2012-02-20 00:28

      It (communism) is dead, they have just not realised it yet. I think it is because it is written on paper and a rap song has not been composed for the death of communism. Blade and Gwede, if you are true communist don't buy the most fancy car and allow yourself only minimum wage.

      Elle-Black - 2012-02-20 08:39

      @ Sinudeity speaking of dying political ideologies,what relevance does Pieter Mulder's FF+ have in modern day society? other than to twist historic facts?

      richard.hipkin - 2012-02-20 10:05

      @Elle-black, no historical facts are being twisted... It's YOU that needs a lesson in history..

      Vaaldonkie - 2012-02-20 11:37

      Communism is FAR from dead. In fact, its ideals found very fruitful soil here in Sub-Saharan Africa. We are already a communist country. Many people have just not realised it yet. But try this exercise: buy a piece of land and try to delve for minerals and see what happens.

      Nick - 2012-02-20 14:29

      @elle what historical facts are you talking about please elaborate

  • Sinudeity - 2012-02-19 21:50

    As for distorting history, thats the onus of the ANC, and the history they have changed for the past 16 years.

      Ben - 2012-02-20 09:01

      Yes, Mulder merely replied to allegations. At this stage what would make sense is: 1) Game farms owned by foreigners. 2) 25million ha. owned by the state. 3)If a farm is given to anyone for free, the least he can do is to produce a degree in agriculture.

  • Sika - 2012-02-19 21:55

    This Pieter Mulder guy his party is not relevant anymore.....he must just join the DA so that they can form their Republic of the Western Cape

      Graham - 2012-02-19 21:59

      The DA and FF are very different parties... The DA rightly criticised Mulder's insensitive comments..

      cameronjohnprice - 2012-02-19 22:02

      this republic of the western cape talk is boring - it will never happen. @Sika - would you like it to happen?

      Sika - 2012-02-19 22:06

      Ohh Graham, I didn't know that they criticised him. He was insensitive and more especialy with the position he holds he should have been cautious.

      Sinudeity - 2012-02-19 22:10

      The FF+ is as different from the DA as the IFP is from the ANC.

      Sika - 2012-02-19 22:12

      @cameronjohnprice nah I will never happen and I don't wish for it to happen...it is as much as the crap that Mulder was saying.... @William the land issue affects those that were forcefully removed from their Land...no one in Gauteng can claimland for example but the Ngunis can claim some land in KZN..I hope this makes sense

      Kevin - 2012-02-19 22:32

      Sita perhaps you should read more. Some members of the DA were fighting apartheid before you were born. Helen Zille was the journalist who revealed the truth behind the murder of Steve Biko, when Pieter Mulders father was cabinet Minister in the Government of the day. They are hardly compatible.

      Sean - 2012-02-19 22:54

      The ANC could learn from the western cape , then S.A would be a better place for everyone !

      Michael - 2012-02-20 08:50

      Everybody - just take a deep breath and read up the history of any continent or nation - many countries were invaded and governed by the most powerful nation - those that won the wars! Take the history of Britain for example - who actually owns it!? There is no "we were here first, so it is ours" scenario - it is through the barrel of the gun that land was won and claimed - the same for SA! Any more questions?

      Warren - 2012-02-20 23:37

      @ Chairman Sika: Lets just say you get your wish, can you imagine what the price of all that yummy imported food will be? Maybe 3 or 4 times the current high price... in US dollars? Do some research a little north of the border for an accurate answer. As the saying goes, "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it!" Hopefully this will make you think twice before you make nonsensical comments.

  • cameronjohnprice - 2012-02-19 22:03

    I read this story on IOL earlier this afternoon - why is News24 only catching on now? Getting a bit slow?

  • Marius - 2012-02-19 22:04

    Mmm. The YCLSA also peeing in the pot. Nothing else to keep you busy?

  • Cracker - 2012-02-19 22:07

    It is in any event a sterile debate/argument that is unwinnable. Pieter Mulder made a grave mistake and served the extremists and some apologists for the ANC with a free and sumptuous political meal. We read again today of another major failure at a hospital of significance: for five days without water supply. Imagine yourself as a patient there. Relevance: Land given out in the name of politics and skin colour sentiments to non-commercial farmers will end us up in a far worse situation than even the absence of water in a major hospital. Think about the consequences of what the communists really have in mind for us. They will abolish private land ownership and they will decide who gets what and on what conditions. All the many jobs dependent on agricultural production at places like Shoprite, the grocer on the corner and others in the agricultural supply line wiped out. Including jobs in financial institutions like banks. All gone to satisfy ideological crap trap that has never worked anywhere else. Savings and pension funds gone. People must think the alternatives through with great circumspection.

      Cracker - 2012-02-19 22:15

      And we should not pin our future on the past history. We cannot change what took place but we can make the present and future a hell of a lot worse and even fatal. We need a proper and honest land audit which includes what commercial and agricultural activities are presently taking place on the land. The vast majority of the land in South Africa is probably already in government/associated bodies'/black ownership/possession. One must once again take note of the absence from these forums of organized agriculture to set the record straight from their perspective. Are farmers really that lazy?

      Vegi - 2012-02-19 22:33

      All the things you say are good but they do not justify you keeping the land that you stole. Please return the land to the owner and then negotiate in good faith.

      Sinudeity - 2012-02-19 22:43

      99% of stolen land has been returned to its rightful owners (According to the ANC government).

      Cracker - 2012-02-19 23:16

      You can't steal something that belongs to you.

      Cracker - 2012-02-19 23:22

      The real land thieves are those eyeing land for their own personal benefit no matter what the consequences for the rest of the population. They are the ones crying for land despite the already available land to them through fair and legitimate means. Many of them already own vast tracts of land but they simply refuse to make full and proper agricultural and commercial use of those lands. And so South Africa is developing into an importer of food. We can't survive on sentiment.

      SarelJBotha - 2012-02-20 09:22

      The simple solution is one that has always worked: Give each nation its own land and then live together as peacefull neigbours under international law.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-02-20 10:10

      @Sarel, how is that working for North and South Sudan?

      Christopher - 2012-02-20 14:06

      @Vegi...F**k you :) You come onto my land...you wont know it but you would have a bullet between your eyes! Thereafter my staffies will have a lovely meal. Go work you sponger.

  • Grant Webb - 2012-02-19 22:09

    The Future Fat Cat gravy train Ticks on a pigs backside are upset? You people are a Cancer on this country You don't give a rat's about the guy's in the slums it's about Whisky and tender's You make the rest of this country sick with you're childish cr@p! Just remember you're electorate is tiny compared to the total of the youth is this country. Get rid of the scum and lets move on.

  • Vegi - 2012-02-19 22:30

    The land of the San and the Khoi belongs to us because they are our ancestors. There are even people in our tribes whose clan names are from the San or Khoi lineage. There are many places with San and Khoi names even in the Eastern Cape. Those people are our ancestors. We inherited everything that belonged to them, their languages, their culture, their lands. We have no claim to any piece of land in Europe. You cannot steal our land while we are looking on with guises of having title deeds, apartheid title deeds. Negotiate land peaceful with us and we will give you land, not the one you stole.

      Sinudeity - 2012-02-19 22:39

      You do have claim to any land in Europe. Just pay for it, just like white people in South Africa did.

      Cracker - 2012-02-19 22:46

      Since when and in terms of which international law must you have a historical claim based on skin color and/or your ancestors' whereabouts to qualify as a legal citizen of a country with the same entitlement to property rights as all the other inhabitants of that specific country? Your version of history may be downright wrong and I for one would prefer experts for a proper version. However, it is a sterile argument in which the different sides will never reach consensus.

      alansmartSnr - 2012-02-20 00:06

      Vegi,, with no animosity, even if you were correct in your arguments, just what the heck would happen to the land. Thousands upon thousands of hectares of land have been given back to "their previous black occupiers" already and do yourself a favour. A few or shacks are built and valuable agricultural land just lays to waste. With very few exceptions I have yet to see any efforts to work the land feasably or professionaly. Lets face facts.. There would not be enough capital to make the farms viable. Have you been to Zimbabwe. If not go or do research. The lovely farms which were once the bread box of africa stand arid and deserted and are once again, after 8 years just unoccupied pieces of veld. Unless this land transfer is done very carefull and selectively, we will also be begging for food from the Unite Nations. Pehaps you'll understand the issue now.

      hannesenbrianda - 2012-02-21 06:29

      Vegi, what makes you think that whites do not have a Khoi heritage? The Cape colony was not as white as you think....

      Nyiks11 - 2012-02-21 09:49

      @Vegi Would you not suggest that black people share this inheritance with white saffies , after all most of them were breastfed by their black nannies which then makes them our half brothers and sistas

  • Johann Enslin - 2012-02-19 22:31

    I do not agree with Mulder's philosophy, nor his politics. As a matter of historical fact, he is correct. This is not to say that no land was taken from blacks, it merely highlights the fact that there is a great divergence between history and political gospel.

      Vaaldonkie - 2012-02-20 11:40

      Do you even KNOW what his philosophy and politics are about?

  • Sinudeity - 2012-02-19 22:35

    Total surface area of South Africa: 1,200,000 km^2 High quality farm prices in Limpopo (p/ha): R3,500 Average farm size: 50ha Landbank corruption: R30,000,000,000 (During Mbeki's term, dunno what Landbank corruption is under Jacob) Amount of area Landbank COULD have acquired: 8,571,428ha (85 714 km^2) Potensial farmers screwed due to corruption (50ha/farm) 171,428

  • Ruan - 2012-02-19 22:48

    Time to seal off the borders of the Western Cape and declare it a Republic of its own and build a berlin type wall and kick our all undesirables and illegals,koeberg is enough to supply us with power and we have one of the largest narutal water catchments in the world and tourism will flourish with the biggest game farms and golf courses,we already support the rest of the countries provinces from our tourism infastructure.Autonomy NOW..... ps,,,for all you racists,the Republic of the Western Cape would be for all who want to make a country work no matter what colour you are. Oh and ps,,,i bet you never knew in 2002 the anc actually considered making the WC independent.

  • Bongeka - 2012-02-20 04:54

    Guys,fighting on these forums is not going to give us any way forward.Vusi and the rest please stop these fights.It's really uncalled for.I guess everyone who participates in these forums must surely be a matured somebody.What happened to let's agree to disagree.And guys please stop being xenophobic about these issues.Being xenophobic is very sensitive because it involves innocent people as well.So just refrain from using a guys nationality or race to score points or win your hidden agendas. South Africa has been free for the past 17 years but we still see Xhosas,Zulus Pedis,Whites,Indians and the rest.When are we going to see just South African sisters and brothers.We all went through a thing or two in the past but what can we do?We can't change it.And since we can't change it then does that mean we must remain with this chip on our shoulders for the rest of our lives?NO,I choose not to.Because seriously it's about the choices we make that will determine our future.No one else.Believe it or not brother but that's a plain truth given to you free of charge.It's up to you to use it to get rid of that chip on your shoulder or stay as you are and let us move on. You don't need to be a Methamatician or a scientist to see what's going on.Do you think the government will buy you a Jeep or a mension?Than dream on brother,maybe you'll meet us half way. I'm not saying what happened in the past was good.No it was very wrong.But it did happen.So what do we do now?Let's move on.

      Skhanyo - 2012-02-20 19:53

      4 us to move on we must first get back what was stolen from us Sisi. Unless you are proposing that if I take away your property, treat you like you are nobody, and then we forgive each other after a lot of bloodshed, and I still get to keep your property...it is just a legalisation of crime...These people must bring back our land only then we will be able to treat each other as brothers and sisters until then I still see them as criminals!

      richard.hipkin - 2012-02-21 09:54

      @Sikhanyiso, what land was stolen from you? And the person on that land, was he the one who stole it? You see the problem is you pointing fingers at the wrong people, you 100 years too late to accuse people..

      Skhanyo - 2012-02-21 12:37

      @pointblank sir please remember that some of us are still suffering from what your forefathers did and that some of you are still benefiting from what your forefathers did. Your forefathers stole the land, some might have bought it from those who stole it. either way a rightful owner never loses the right to his property merely bcoz thee property was stolen from him. In other words he has a real right and you have a personal right against the person from whom you bought the land. So please do not tell me I am pointing fingers at the wrong people. your so-called wrong people are busy reaping benefits off our land! you should be ashamed of your self dude..lol

  • louisdiemasjien - 2012-02-20 05:15

    Why do this even bother us? The black-vs-white-vs-black-vs-white arguments are getting boring now. Seriously. What is more surprising is how easily the politicians get involved in redundant chatter of this nature when there's far more serious matters to attend to. If Buti Manamela and Pieter Mulder don't have anything better to do than to mudsling their stupidity back and forth, perhaps we need better leaders.

  • HolyHoly - 2012-02-20 05:16

    May you please list all reasons why your great great great grandparents sailed all the way to SA and then we can start talking. If you dislike my comment without giving a reason, then you are a loser. I do not want to provoke anyone. I just want to understand you much better. Maybe we can then find a solution.

      Armand Botha - 2012-02-20 12:43

      I dont know ..... But arent you glad they did.

      andLarry - 2012-02-21 11:55

      ...and yours walked, the history of mankind since the beginning has been a journey of exploration and movement, look how far we journeyed from the cradle of humankind. I'm very sorry this natural instinct turned very nasty in the form of Apardheid, returning land taken under this hideous system is imperative! However prior to this is questionable, more facts need to be researched so we can all find out the truth.

      Deirdre - 2012-02-21 14:11

      Because they were under religious persecution, and chose to start a new life several thousand kilometres from home, where they could work at building their lives. They did not steal the land but traded for it. They worked together with the indigenous people of the time, yes perhaps treating them as servants, but still those "servants" were more often than not looked after, given clothes, a form of education and a roof over their heads. A solution would be to forget who "stole what from whom" during the settlement era and to concentrate on building a new nation. Forget skin colour, forget gender, forget who's tribe did what and when - the past is history, there's nothing you can do about it, the future we can shape and this shaping will either make or break South Africa.

  • Gontse Tladi - 2012-02-20 05:40

    Personally I believe that this whole land redistribution is just going to cause more problems for the country, which is going to set us back in becoming. As long as the people who have the land are not using it selfishly and abusing the workers, I say lets move forward into a brighter future.

  • Gontse Tladi - 2012-02-20 05:42

    In becoming a first class country

  • Gontse Tladi - 2012-02-20 05:42

    It is going to set us back in becoming a first world country

  • Eduard - 2012-02-20 06:25

    but what if he is right? Agree, he should know better than to make such comments public

  • Tony - 2012-02-20 06:28

    The ANC are quite good at that too. Between them and the PAC, they can't even agree on the history of Sharpeville, both claiming it was their doing, then there is the likes of Andrew Zondi who killed innovcent folk, who mow is a hero?? Nice.. Apart from that, the ANC go through great pains to point out they are part of the majority, and use this force laws, views, culture onto minorities.Mulder is part of the minority. Why does he worry the YCL? Is it because they are xenophobic?

  • Jacqui Fichardt Millin - 2012-02-20 06:51

    Yes but we build this country with our knowledge. Wanna see them living in the bush again. They can't farm and that's that. Why must we import? Cos we can't meet demand, cos previously productive farms are just lying there, unworked, nothing left, broken down.

  • Tc - 2012-02-20 07:05

    Mulder is right. Of course the pluderers will not like the truth.

  • Harold - 2012-02-20 07:05

    If we're going to use the "who got here first" argument to justify land claims then everything belongs to the San people of the Northern Cape, everything. I thought the Act specified 1913 as the cut off date so anything prior is just a silly argument. Besides we're got to sort out all the forced removal stuff of the 40s, 50s,and 60s before we even think about who got here first. Mulder is just trying to muddy the water to gain some kind of moral high ground which sadly for him is impossible given the history, whichever way you see it.

  • Mike - 2012-02-20 07:14

    This Mulder must immeditely resign,Its a known fact that the land always belonged to the African people since 1913 way before the first ship of Jan VAn riebek landed in the cape.

      Sipho - 2012-02-20 07:17

      mike, clearly u osso believed in LIBERATION BEFORE EDUKASHUN!!!

      Sean - 2012-02-20 08:28

      I can see the two of you are very well educated !! lol !

      SarelJBotha - 2012-02-20 09:24

      No, it not a fact, the only fact here is that you believe a lie.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-02-20 09:57

      Van Riebeck landed in 1652 Mike... not 1913...

      Jessica Wright - 2012-02-20 10:20

      lmao is that what you call a "known fact" mike? That a guy landed in africa four hundred years after he died? Eish, your comment explains a lot about this whole debate:)

      hannesenbrianda - 2012-02-21 06:33

      Mike that is nonsense. No-one except some ANC supporters believe this. This is no historical evidence to support this, in fact the evidence points in Mulders way.

  • Mbuso - 2012-02-20 07:21

    Lets say America was to take over South Africa today. And Americans moved into South Africa and bought land from their government. Then later on South Africa regained power from America's government. Could any American really be considered to be the rightful owner of any land in South Africa? Similarly, can any person of European descent truly be the rightful owner of any African soil?

      Ze Don - 2012-02-20 07:33

      Answer me this: Where is the cradle of human kind?

      Kroese - 2012-02-20 08:00

      Interesting analogy your are using, Mbuso. But to make it fit better to the situasion in SA, lets say America was to take over South Africa today. And Americans moved into South Africa and take the land. Then later Russia take over South Africa and Russians bought land from their government. Then later on America regained power from Russia's government. Could any American really be considered to be the rightful owner of any land in South Africa? Similary, can any person of Central African descent truly be the rightfull owner of any Southern African soil?

  • Andrè - 2012-02-20 07:32

    Mike Please ckeck your facts on Jan van Riebeeck. By 1913 he was dead for centuries

      Tommy - 2012-02-20 08:33

      1652-1913, Oupa Jan lives in the 4th dimension.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-02-20 09:58

      @Andre, don't you know, white people live for 400 years! :)

  • Clive - 2012-02-20 07:37

    The problem is that we are ALL labouring under the distorted histories that the British wrote about Southern Africa, in order to give them an alibi for invading and stealing the country from its indigenous peoples. There was NO 'Bantu migration' from the north. There is ample archaeological evidence to show that the entire northern territory west of the Maloti mountains (Drakensberg)was densly populated by indigenous Sesotho speaking people at least 300 years before Diaz even rounded the Cape. Search the Internet for Prof Julian Cobbing's treatise "The Mfecane as alibi" to get a true insight into the chaos caused by British and Portuguese slave trading in the region. We need to rewrite the history of this country so people can finally get closer to the truth.

      Lanfear - 2012-02-21 11:02

      Yes Clive, a lot of history was distorted by the Europeans [not only the British] to lay claim to colonies. However, just as there is a lot of archaeological evidence indicating that parts of SA were inhabited before Diaz et al, there is also ample archaeological evidence that supports the migration from central and west Africa down into southern Africa. Perhaps Prof Cobbing should include a little paragraph about the chaos caused in eastern Africa by the Arabic slave traders, neh. Why do people always blame only Europeans for the slave trade when it is known that the Arabic [Near East] enslaved millions more Africans than the Europeans ever did? But I digress. The point that many people made is not that South Africa was uninhabited but that certain parts of it [west and south] were never inhabited by the black Africans. Those parts only had a few bands of hunter-gatherer San and a few tribes of pastoral Khoi. Both of these people [who were once one], were driven into the south and west of SA and Namibia by migrating black African tribes. Much the same way as the Germanic tribes were pushed into the Roman empire by the migrating Slavs, Mongols and Huns. Yes, we do need to rewrite the history of South Africa, without the old colonial prejudice and without the black African distortion. Both of them have twisted history to suit themselves and their political agendas. We need to go back to basics with the history of our country.

      Lanfear - 2012-02-21 13:26

      Btw Clive, the mfecana or difaqane depending on the language you use, had actually nothing to do with the much earlier migration from the north. Those words are the description of the time between 1815 and 1845 when there was war amongst the black African tribes, mainly caused by Shaka's conquests and Mzilikazi's expansions.

  • Zion - 2012-02-20 07:40

    Mulder was not re-writing history but reciting it. It is becoming clear now why the department of Education and other government institutions shy away from the history of this country: History portrays and reflects the ANC for what it is and and the previous regime for what they were. Both are very close to equal

  • Trevor - 2012-02-20 07:41

    LOL....the ANC keeps on pushing the race card and people keep on falling for it...you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe this is EXACTLY what the ANC wants, a continued arguement over race...they want to keep race hate alive so as to remain in power and keep up with their successful raping of SA's resources so as to enrich themselves.EVERYTHING they do is not due to ignorance, they KNOW what they are doing....stop, step back & look at the whole picture....the ANC are playing us all like puppets and it will NEVER end cause people as a whole are to wrapped up race, they have become blind.

      Elle-Black - 2012-02-20 07:55

      @ Pieter Mulder no I think you got it wrong,this time it's YOUR Pieter Mulder that is pushing the race card,the ANC had nothing to do with it.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-02-20 10:20

      @Elle, are you normally this ignorant? The ANC and specifically the ANCYL have been calling for land redistribution without compensation for years... Although many of us realise the importance of returning land STOLEN from people it is the manner in which the ANC call for land redistribution. The only thing stopping a Zimbabwe style land invasion is because of our constitution... which even that is now under threat... are the blinkers lifting a bit or are you still horribly brainwashed??

  • Hector - 2012-02-20 07:56

    "the Young Communist League of SA said on Sunday." Wow the WWF must be so happy just when you think the last of the red communist have died out a whole nest of young ones have been found in the Back water, third world crap hole South Africa... And they are full of it and chirping just like there deceased and extict fore fathers. Amazing..

  • HiJack - 2012-02-20 08:37

    http://mspoliticalcommentary.blogspot.com/2011/06/opening-pandoras-apartheid-box-part-32.html

  • Michael - 2012-02-20 08:37

    The fact of the matter about all this who was here first has actually got stuff-all to do with the way of the world. Through the centuries land grabs (invasions) by a particular tribe or nation of one over the other took place and the one with the stronger arms and numbers took control - so who actually owns Britain for example. Read up the history of all the invasions and who ultimately rules where and when speaks volumes. The truth about SA is that the white settlers had the superior weapons and through the barrel of the gun laid claim to the land - finish and klaar. No black person has the right to "take back" what they claim to be "theirs" - It is not and never will be. Get off your asses, save and buy. That is the way it is today and that is the end of the story!

  • tacod - 2012-02-20 08:41

    I am surprised at all the comments here. Yet nobody mention that the land claim gets resolved and the community opts for financial compensation and the farmer get to keep his land. If the Black Africans were so set on getting the land back that they claim was stolen by the whites, why would they settle for financial compensation. Is it so that the next generation can lay another claim even after the claim was settled or that the land can be expropriated without any compensation by the likes of the YCL and the ANCYL when these members come into power? The propaganda being strewn by the YCL and the ANCYL will cause this country either to enter into civil war or Mass genocide. After the white man has been chased from the country, no surprise, the then government will start begging from the rest of the world run by whites for donations of food as they will not be able to feed the masses. Yet so many will die of starvation like in ZIM and the elite will steal as much as they can from their fellow black Africans.

  • SarelJBotha - 2012-02-20 09:17

    If blacks owned all the land, why did the English scouts found vast open spaces, while preparing for the Boer wars. Only a complete idiot will still believe that blacks occupied and owned all the land in what is now RSA. Maybe it is time that this whole issue is brought into the light and that a independant study is done to confirm the truth once and for all.

      HiJack - 2012-02-20 09:31

      http://mspoliticalcommentary.blogspot.com/2011/06/opening-pandoras-apartheid-box-part-32.html

  • Nigel - 2012-02-20 10:03

    Its a debate, he has an opinion, hell, Malema shouts about land grabs & encourages farm murders, funny how some on this forum only see things one way. If you criticize Mulder, then you must do the same to Malema.

  • Brett - 2012-02-20 10:23

    Mulder for president!

  • Elle-Black - 2012-02-20 11:09

    @ I think "Vusi"is taking us for suckers,I doubt that's his real profile he's not an African,just some white dude who's trying to take the p$#&ss out of the situation (a troll)

      andLarry - 2012-02-21 12:09

      I agree and this makes his opinions all the more pathetic and stupid.

  • Vaaldonkie - 2012-02-20 11:34

    Yes, if a communist says it is so, then it must be so. After all, the communists have always born the torch of truth deep into the darkness of bourgeous society. Am I right, comrades?

  • Martin - 2012-02-20 11:37

    I want to know: What will be done to ensure that those native Africans who have immigrated to America, Britian and the rest of the world, are also given their slice of the cake? I recently ran into Wesley Snipes and Chris Rock who were very concerned with the fact that they were being excluded. I believe it is responsibility of Africans worldwide to return to their motherland and stake their claim.

      Elle-Black - 2012-02-20 12:18

      They didnt not immigrate their forfather were taken as slaves,get it right

      Vaaldonkie - 2012-02-20 13:11

      To put it into perspective, their forefathers were so unpleasant that their own people caught them and sold them to Arabs and Europeans just to be rid of them.

      Michael - 2012-02-20 14:56

      I believe . . . djy praat stront! (BTW - when you say Africans you actually mean Blacks - I am white and also am African - so put that in your pipe - jerk!)

      bluzulu - 2012-02-20 19:45

      Read the facts mate. Africans were taken to these far of lands as slaves by Colonist. They never left for a vacation,,,,What an Einstein

      Michael - 2012-02-21 07:31

      @bluzulu - WRONG! - their own people rounded them up and bartered (sold) them to the Explorers. What do you have to say about the Red Indians in USA - they don't moan and groan about "their" land being taken. So STFU already!

      Lanfear - 2012-02-21 11:04

      @ Elle-Black& bluzulu - yes they were taken as slaves. Funny how so very few of them want to come back...

      andLarry - 2012-02-21 12:22

      What an ignorant statement, and if it weren't for Chinese inventions we wouldn't have been able to leave Europe by ship. Lets stop trying to make out how cleaver we are when statements like yours clearly show differently.

  • Gail - 2012-02-20 15:23

    Agriculture is the first step on the road to civilisation and NOT the wheel. Everyone on these forums needs to understand this. It requires both an understanding of the land as well as any number of different sciences. A big farm is only large in relation to what it is being utilised for and what it is most suited for. This has to take into account such disparate things as rainfall, types of grass/vegetation, arability for crops, knowledge of conservation of portions of land to allow for recovery and rehabilitation... These are just a few of the things. Land is not just a piece of ground where you can build a shelter for your family and scrape the earth and plant some mealies or beans or sunflowers or run a herd of cattle. For all of those things water is lifeblood. One has to have the ability to plan for the years ahead and not just up anchor and move on and settle in somewhere else where the land is currently producing. You can only run so many head of a particular ruminant on a specific sized piece of land for example. Cows are grazers by and large but they will if desperate eat things within reach of them in drought conditions. Sheep likewise. Goats on the other hand are quite clever and able to stand on their hind legs and eat the greenery off the lower branches of thorn and scrub trees. This Commie indoctrinated person hasn't a clue about farming and the need for food security which is why Zim is in the mess it is in.Not every person wants to or can farm.

  • Craig - 2012-02-20 16:13

    When someone exposes the lies of your thieving alliance partners, you cry foul... Mulder stated FACTS, and raised very imported issues. Land reform needs attention or we will all starve! Grow up and stop whining. BTW Communism died a long time ago...

  • J.A.Rademan - 2012-02-20 17:19

    Everybody is making laughing at Mulder but listen carefully what he is saying. The ANC seems threatened by this train of thought. The truth is the land reform has an open time agenda . Is it only to reform land back from whites and up to the era of the start of Colonialism in SA. If there is no end date surely there should not be a be start date. This means the Xhoisan has rights to the whole of the Western Cape definately not the Xhosas which was an invading nation. Another thing is that there are many instances in history where the so called forefathers sold the birth right of blacks to colonialist for a couple of trinkets. How about that for dumb and ignorant. If everything was stolen or taken then reform by all means, but if your forefathers were ignorant and had no foresight, let it be. I believe in reform because apartheid was wrong but if president Zuma believes land reform is emotive he should remember that White Farmers took their rights to own land so seriously that they took on the might of the colonists and that of the Black Africans with such a determination that they conquered all and ruled against all odd for a long time. This emotion is a strong undercurrent under the white youth in SA.

  • J.A.Rademan - 2012-02-20 17:32

    @Xolani, did your forefathers have ships or used wheels in their used gunpowder etc etc etc

  • bluzulu - 2012-02-20 19:06

    Mulder is the type of South African we DO NOT require here in our country. This pest and pests' of his ilk have never removed their blinkers. They seem to have this twisted ideology of returning to the "Good ol' days" where millions suffered.

  • bluzulu - 2012-02-20 19:39

    South African society is so warped even factual history is questioned. This society sucks. I am employed at a State enterprise ( The only one that makes a profit) and all I hear all day long is people of a specific colour lusting for the "Good ol' days". Try living the lives of the victims in the old government. Think before you dribble shyt

      hannesenbrianda - 2012-02-21 06:46

      @Bluzulu. The ANC has distorted factual history for its own benefit. Historians (of which many are white) had allowed the ANC to get away with it as any resistance to these viewes were seen as racism by die ANC and their narrow minded supporters. After 17 years of ANC mismanagement the ANC has lost their moral authority and now historians, the international community and other minority groups openly question the ANC version of history and asks the ANC to produce evidence to back-up their version of history. The ANC however continues to fails to produce evidence and continue to use the "race card" as their only weak defense. A large section of the population of South Africa and the international community see right through the ANC and their doubious way of trying to getting away with murder. What I agree with is that such a society sucks. Put up the evidence or shut up.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-02-21 10:17

      Rubbish. You lie through your teeth, an idiot can see this.

      Archie - 2012-02-21 11:37

      Look around you,Is this better than yesterday?Where is the promised land that Mandela said we would share?Up until 150 years ago africans did not have any written history and.Those bad times are over!Let us build a future together.Stop burying our heads in the past ,our future can be built only by hard work and good planning,expecting every thing for nothing will get you nothing.

      Sean - 2012-02-21 13:16

      @bluzulu - ( The only one that makes a profit) lol !! What victims ?? Majority of South Africans are victims of the criminal ANC !! Please answer me this question ? I never agreed with apartheid , BUT why do so many black South African say theY lived a better life during apartheid ?? Makes one wonder !

  • Jannie - 2012-02-21 08:49

    amen vusi

  • nchukana - 2012-02-21 09:02

    Mulder should go and make his speech in Zimbabwe and he will meet his match

  • Jacques - 2012-02-21 09:17

    Vusi for president!!!! We need more of this kind of South Africans!!! Big or small balls Vusi... does not matter, You have brains and logic... balls can never replace that!

      Skhanyo - 2012-02-21 11:24

      lol vusi advances the interests of the white minority there is no way he can ever be the president. Remember the majority would never vote for such a person; I have a feeling that his dad was an apartheid police officer, and vusi has since accumulated all his dady's skills of pleasing whites... grow up vusi!! You are free now you do not have to please whites now!!!

  • flysouth - 2012-02-21 10:12

    Of course Mulder is right in his claims - there is but one history of this land - unless of course you are black and communist, when you will want to deny any history which does not accord with what you wish to believe! That is called revisionism - let me tell you, it does not work! This was an almost 'empty land' where the interior most certainly was very sparsely populated with San people. Black (Nguni) people were migrating, over long periods from central Africa whilst whites were more rapidly moving from the South. This is all well-documented and proven - arguing against proven facts is truly stupid.

      Lanfear - 2012-02-21 11:13

      No you are wrong. The land wasn't "woes en leeg" when the Voortrekkers migrated north and east into the interior of South Africa. It may have appeared so at that moment, since the migration coincided with Shaka and Mzilikazi's conquests, later referred to as the difaqane and the mfecane. Practically the whole of SA, excluding parts of the western and nothern Cape regions, were populated with numerous black African tribes. Most of the migration from the north by the black Africans was complete by the time the Europeans came here and started migrating inland. The best way to ascertain the truth is through original documentation from the European side, trustworthy oral tradition from the black African side, and then a great deal of archaeological data to round it off. Otherwise it is all conjecture. We were also tought revisionist history during apartheid, remember that. As I commented to Clive above, we need to go back to the basics I listed here to ascertain the true history of South Africa, without white or black bias.

      richard.hipkin - 2012-02-21 15:21

      THE HISTORY OF LAND-ownership in South Africa once came before the International Court of Justice. From 1960 to 1966, Ethiopia and Liberia had fought a fierce legal campaign against South Africa in the World Court at The ...Hague, to put South West Africa under the guardianship of the United Nations. They alleged that “South Africa was already effectively occupied by non-whites before Europeans began to settle in the country and the Europeans proceeded to take occupation of non-white land.” By using the works of well-known historians, doctoral theses and archives, the South African legal team refuted these allegations effectively and Ethiopia and Liberia eventually accepted South Africa’s version of the history of landownership. South Africa, referring to the occupation by black tribes up until 1652 maintained that: “Although no exact calculation is possible, it would appear that all the areas inhabited by the Bantu tribes comprised approximately one-eighth of the total area of South Africa including the protectorates.”

      richard.hipkin - 2012-02-21 15:22

      New settlers were black and white In fact, the whole country had actually belonged to the San and the Nama or Khoikhoin for centuries (Khoisan is the collective name for these two groups). They were equally “non-black” and “non-white”. Over a long time, Bantu-speaking nations migrated from central Africa southwards and the Khoisan communities were driven away, exterminated and absorbed. From 1652, Van Riebeeck and his successors also fought the remaining Khoisan communities in the south and decimated their numbers. In addition, diseases overwhelmed the original nomadic occupants of South Africa. So, in effect, both black and white were actually colonialists and new settlers.

  • Skhanyo - 2012-02-21 11:32

    People let us all remember that no one in RSA does not know how the whites got the land...secondly we all know that they came here in 1652. They never brought any land with them...when they came we were already here and they know that. Anyone who shares Mulder's stupid opinion must have lost touch with reality.

      Sean - 2012-02-21 13:19

      @Sikhanyiso Jojo - Why must the part where your forfathers murdered the khoisan be left out ?? Because it suites you ?? Bunch of uneducated hypocrites !

      richard.hipkin - 2012-02-21 13:20

      @Sikhanyiso, did you bring land? Did you create the land? Were you given the land or did you chase the original dwellers off the land? Go learn your history punk.

      Hugh - 2012-02-21 15:41

      Jojo, your argument carries no weight, historically the cape was void of any black people and historically the first blacks the "settlers" found was past the fish river canyon. Till then, they had never even seen a black man. Anyway enough of that because you'd believe what you believe, the fact is Mulder's entire rant in parliament was misunderstood because you guys don't want to acknowledge the truth, but hang onto your own version which has no grounds in fact. The 1913 land act and the group areas act of 1945 was the issue that need redressed, I dont think there's anyone disputing that and neither Mulder. He was refuring to the "whites stole all the land" issue. To add to your idiotic statement that the whites didn't bring any land with us, well neither did you. African migration south is historic fact. You brought cattle, war, and clay pots.