News24

Mulder stirs hornet's nest in land debate

2012-02-15 19:31

Cape Town - Freedom Front Plus leader Pieter Mulder gave the hornet's nest of land ownership a sharp political poke in Parliament on Wednesday

He suggested that black "Bantu-speaking" people had no historical claim to 40% of the country.

"Africans in particular never in the past lived in the whole of South Africa," he said during debate in the National Assembly on last week's State of the Nation address.

Mulder's remarks provoked an angry buzz from ruling party benches, which rose in pitch when he then explained: "There is sufficient proof that there were no Bantu-speaking people in the Western Cape and north western Cape."

These areas formed 40% of South Africa’s land surface, he told MPs.

Mulder serves in President Jacob Zuma's Cabinet as deputy agriculture minister.

He was responding to the president's statement in his address on Thursday, that the willing-buyer willing-seller option had "not been the best way to address" land redistribution.

Emotional issue

Mulder said the question of land ownership was an emotional issue that had caused many wars.

In the South African context, Bantu-speaking people had moved down the continent from Africa's equatorial regions, while Europeans had moved up from the Cape. They had met at the Kei River, in the present-day Eastern Cape.

"There are also differences of opinion about the influence of the Difaqane on land ownership. Read the diaries of the Voortrekkers about what they found when they moved into the interior," he told MPs.

The Sotho word Difaqane is the term used by historians for a period of internecine warfare involving various tribal groups in the interior of southern Africa during the early to middle 19th century.

Mulder took issue with land ownership figures cited by Zuma in his address.

"The President quotes in his address the department of rural development’s figures on land reform.

"According to [these], white people possessed 87% of the land, and the government had reached only 8% of its 30% [land reform] target. I seriously differ from these figures.

Land audit

"How does the department calculate the eight percent? There isn’t a completed land audit against which we could correlate these facts."

The Development Bank of SA calculated in 2001 that 44% of the country's land belonged to whites, 20% to blacks, 9% to brown people and 1% to Asians.

"The way in which the department has calculated the 30% and 8% figures creates the impression that they are setting themselves up to fail."

Mulder said he seriously differed with the claim that white people had stolen land.

Referring to Zuma's remarks on the willing-buyer willing-seller option, he said that, in plain language, this meant the government now believed in the nationalisation of agricultural land.

However, anyone who had dealt with land reform knew the problem was not with the willing-buyer-willing-seller principle.

Disasterous

"The problem is the disastrous way land reform is being applied. There are many letters on my desk from white commercial farmers, who have offered their land to the department and received no reply."

There were also many letters from white commercial farmers who had concluded sales agreements with the department and gone bankrupt three years later because the department had not paid them out.

Mulder asked why the department of rural development did not buy farms in the Kalahari and Karoo.

"In the Karoo and Kalahari, huge farms are available. Why does the department not buy some of that land to reach their 30% quicker? These semi-desert lands are, however, added to the 87% propaganda percentage as white land."

Mulder said he hoped there would come a time when both white and black commercial farmers did not have to look for opportunities elsewhere in Africa.

"I dream of white and black commercial farmers who do not have to go to Africa for opportunities. The children who were born in 1994 are 18 years old this year and can vote. They only know an ANC government," he said.

"There is no reason why such a child should not be able to buy a farm or obtain a bursary, just because he or she is white. Yet this is still happening."

Mulder's speech proved too much for Defence Minister Lindiwe Sisulu, who, after he finished speaking, leapt to her feet and demanded to know whether it was Parliamentary for a member "to blatantly distort history".

Speaker Max Sisulu dismissed this, saying it was a point of information, not a point of order.

Comments
  • dave.leverton - 2012-02-15 19:43

    "There is sufficient proof that there were no Bantu-speaking people in the Western Cape and north western Cape." Indeed there weren't. As for Sisulu, the only distortion of history is that 'the whites stole the land which had always belonged to you'.

      lindz.kok - 2012-02-15 20:20

      vegi i have seen on so many of your coments on previous articles how blatantly racist you are. we are trieng to build south africa up from the ruble fairly... if you want south africa to go the way of zim so badle then just go live there with your brother mughabe you clearly share the same mind set :)

      Dirk - 2012-02-15 20:24

      Yes and she distorted the "Defense Force"- complete destruction.

      proafrikaans - 2012-02-15 20:27

      And now, what will inevitably happen, is that there will be hysterical screams of racism. Which will only prove that the truth, the facts and even the universe are all "racist" in the insane, loony-left world of political correctness gone mad. Well done, Dr. Mulder.

      Swapie - 2012-02-15 20:43

      Just look at the history. Where did the Voortrekkers came in contact with the Bantu's for the first time. I will go as far to say that 90% of the tribes were not from South Africa originally. They migrated from Middle Africa down to the Southern parts looking for graze for their cattle.

      Blip - 2012-02-15 20:46

      Mulder and Leverton are clinging to an old myth. Palaeontological finds -- skeletal remains, duly carbon-dated and DNA-analysed -- conclusively prove that several waves of non-Khoisan black African Bantu were in what is now Cape Town in a series of migratory nomadic waves as long ago as 10000 years ago and at roughly millenial intervals since then. The encounter between white settlers and another Bantu migratory wave at the Fish River in 1770 was by no means the first time Bantu nomadic herdsmen had ventured so far south. Mulder merely recites yet another Afrikaner myth taught to him and all white children during their high school history indoctrination sessions from their ideological gospel of Afrikaner Nationalism. Mulder is, frankly, an ignoramus.

      Tshifhiwa - 2012-02-15 20:49

      I am a young black man who believes in land re-form, but this man has some valid point's until one of the ANC officials prove me otherwise.

      Elsie - 2012-02-15 20:54

      Vegi doesn't have a clue

      Ben - 2012-02-15 21:00

      As there will never be a conclusion acceptable to all parties through debate the only alternative is through division, the particulars of which can be worked out in an manner which will satisfy everybody involved.

      Swapie - 2012-02-15 21:05

      Jack Nicholson as the confused president in Mars Attack: "Why can't we just get along?" Ugly Martian: "$%@##& $%%&^@@#" KABOOOOOMMMMMM!

      Anton - 2012-02-15 21:21

      @Dirk What "Defence Force"...it is such a joke...the current defence force (pls see small letters) is a concentration camp for aids victims.

      Myvision - 2012-02-15 23:43

      Mulder now wants to re-write history, WOW!!

      Sinudeity - 2012-02-16 00:41

      Myancmyfuture - Err, no. Its you trying to rewrite history here. A good example of ANC changing history is the battle of Cuito Cuanavale.

      Susanna - 2012-02-16 05:19

      ...and did you know, white people also originated in Africa?

      Naledi Mabindla - 2012-02-16 06:50

      And if the bantu people moved down to south africa the same time as the settlers when did the evolution of their east african language evolve(bantu languages are east african and contain no clicks)so we as bantu people moved down and within a year xhosa and zulu evolved in two minutes to have clicks used by the khoi?when the settlers arrived here the khoi\sans had already intermarried and procreated with the bantu(hence some if us black people have khoi and san features)please read ur history

      werner.smidt - 2012-02-16 07:10

      @Blip . . you're frankly, bombastic and somewhat condescending. "Ignoramus" . . really? When do you expect your monocle to arrive? :) Now, I agree that there is some weird "chosen people" syndrome doing its rounds, but you mentioned 10000 years. Were there non-Khoisan people there at the time white settlers were there? Giving arable land to people that are inept when it comes to farming is like changing street names . . it only serves politically.

      HenriLeRiche - 2012-02-16 07:29

      Blip, you and your partner with the verkramptes is happy to stay in a far out corner in our Volkstaat. That is if we let you in. I think you would fit in better with your choms in your dysfunctional land. And don't think because you post under a false name you're going to sneak into the back door. Like days of old with a "potlood" test, in your case we'll do a "beknopte" test so you better get your answers right mister. lol Well done to Dr. Mulder. One step closer to our Volkstaat. The ANC would not know what hit them. And it won't be up to ANC supporters to decide but the international community. -----------> UNPO.ORG <------------ Self-determination is a right and you can cry and moan as much as you want but what is to come is inevitable.

      Elle-Black - 2012-02-16 07:55

      @ Dave this is history told by a self serving white man who will abviously contort the truth to suite him and you agree with him 'Indeed there weretn"as if you where there.

      Jason - 2012-02-16 08:30

      Give us our 40% up to that river in the Eastern Cape, you run your and we will run ours. Lets see who does better. Yes you can have the mines!

      Alisha - 2012-02-16 08:48

      Well done Pieter Mulder. It is a FACT that Nguni tribes have 0 land rights / claims in the Western and Northern Cape. The ANC has distorted the facts over the last 17 years by divisively rewriting the history books with Africanism propaganda. The DA will run the Western Cape until Jesus returns, even if it has to break away and declare independence.

      Alisha - 2012-02-16 09:46

      Have a look at this section of the an old Southern African map drawn up by in 1862 by the Dutch. http://hookingup.co.za/DSC_0056.JPG . It clearly shows the historical culture boundary between the virgin land settled on by whites on trek North Eastwards and the Southern-most region inhabited by Ngunis (Xhosas) heading South-Westwards at the same time. This map can be seen at the Swellendam Museum. Swallow this ANC. Pieter Mulder is stating a FACT.

      izak.labuschagne - 2012-02-16 11:00

      Everyone forgets the land reform that took place when whites sold their lands to make the Bantu States homelands. Who owns that land now. Whites? No. Blacks. To be exact the Minister of Agriculture and the Chiefs. That's at least 40 % of the agricultural land in RSA. That land was some of the prime land in the country. Overgrazing and abusing it has destroyed it. When one develops land one gains real ownership rights, not when one destroys it. If the blacks were nomadic then they did not own the land. They simply grazed some place to ruins and then moved on because no one was there or fought whoever was in their way. They never exercise any ownership rights over the land. They simply used and abused it and then moved on. The record of abuse persists to this day. All the successful white farms that subsequent black owners have destroyed bears testimony to that. Whites made this place what it is. Blacks are simply trying to justify stealing what the whites built up, even if that means trying to change history. After all, that is the reputation that they have now. Squealing about the negative responses that invites wont change the hard facts one little bit.

      eric.vanvuuren - 2012-02-16 15:52

      Political correctness has taken the front seat, and truth has no place in parliament - what a political F00k-0p. This government must be ejaculated. There is no other way to hope for peace with these people is folly.

      eric.vanvuuren - 2012-02-16 15:55

      Did I say “ejaculated” hahahaha - Damn you predictive text!!!

      Louis - 2012-02-16 18:18

      Vegi or is it vegetable. I suggest you start reading some real history, not the amended histortorical junk spewed out by your anc buddies. Next those idiots will tell you that they inventd the wheel. Vegetable you cannot change history.You are a real anc twit. The truth hurts?

      Boeretroos - 2012-02-16 18:30

      Volkstaat !

      SergeD69 - 2012-02-17 00:05

      Since my earlier comment was removed, I think I will switch sides and support Vegi. Vegi, you are the man (girl)!

      Other - 2012-02-17 07:39

      @Blip - You have hit the nail on the head, not the head you are refering to though. You say that there are archaeological finds of NOMADIC Banthu peoples in the Western Cape. You cannot steal land from a nomadic people that have not lived in the area for hundreds if not thousands of years? The main point here is the claim that land was stolen by white people. This is at best, a myth. The ONLY time that land was possibly stolen was in the last century while under apartheid rule, this is the land that should be returned to it's rightful owners. However devastating and wring this was, it does not constitute a very large percentage of SA land. By and large all that land redistribution is, is the punishment of white South Africans for the horrible legacy that apartheid has left, nothing more. If you do your research you will find that at the time when the dutch landed in the Western Cape as well as when the Voortrekers went north east into the South African interior, they encountered very little if no 'indigenous' peoples. It was only in the Eastern Cape and Kwazulu that they met with resistance. This is fact, not fiction. This matter needs to be viewed by the facts and not emotionally, only then will the truth of the matter come to the fore, and only then can this matter be put to rest. At the moment, it is just emotional racial politics, something the cANCer excels at.

      Nkulekweni - 2012-02-17 12:26

      Evidence in this case being what you want to hear. There is also evidence I believe that grass is pink. Those who are interested in fatcs and not apartheid fiction can use this page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_expansion as a start and there is bibliography there for those who are interested in reading further. These are international scholars. Apartheid scholars in South Africa have admitted in papers delivered in different forums of being forced to hide evidence that supports the fact of centuries of Bantu presence in what is now called South Africa. In doing this they actually compromised their own careers as scholars since Linguistic and other evidence (e.g. agriculture) cannot be hidden nor twisted.

      pieter.haasbroek - 2012-02-17 12:48

      @Blip, there is a significant difference between nomadic herdsmen and land ownership. If all these white landowners now move onto Aus or elsewhere and leave a few skeletons behind would they be able to argue ownership of South African land in 10,000 years because they happened to traverse these shores whilst "nomadically" being on their way to Aus and in the process left a few skull bones behind? It is pathetic that our leaders still engage in arguments about who were where first and insist on fueling the race fires. As for Lindiwe's outrage - shame sister, history is not what you want it to be. As long as we have Lindiwes and Juliuses our society will remain polarised; these tantrum throwers don't add any value. Their only contribution is to demonstrate their deep seated inability to adjust, as if any of the enlightened citizens of RSA really care. just about the only good thing to said about people like that is they are not scared to display their absolute beliefs for all to see, rightly or wrongly. Some would call it honest and heroic, others would call it stupid and likely to lead to disaster.

      Joe - 2012-02-17 15:53

      @DILIGAF You have heard of the Wild Wild West era?

      Multi - 2012-02-17 17:21

      Blip you keep going on about research that proves your point. Could I please have some links to this information you are using. If you cannot provide links then your argument is nothing but hot air. If you would like I could provide links to support the arguments of all the people arguing against you so you can make an informed conclusion of the matter.

  • Alisha - 2012-02-15 19:47

    Well done Pieter Mulder. It is a FACT that Nguni tribes have 0 land rights / claims in the Western and Northern Cape. The ANC has distorted the facts over the last 17 years by divisively rewriting the history books with Africanism propaganda. The DA will run the Western Cape until Jesus returns, even if it has to break away and declare independence. God bless the Western Cape.

      Irene - 2012-02-15 20:12

      Vegi ~ Learn to spell.

      Jako - 2012-02-15 20:15

      Vegi what is a lier quick spell bubboon. keep pushing us...

      Polotic - 2012-02-15 20:25

      @Vegi - What is a lier? Somebody not sitting? I take it you mean liar. If so , you are far off the mark and not prepared to face the truth. Mulder is speaking the truth and making the ANC incompetents in Parliament feel uncomfortable.

      Irene - 2012-02-15 20:33

      I do believe Vegi just wet herself.

      Elsie - 2012-02-15 20:55

      Vegi doesn't have a clue

      Alisha - 2012-02-16 09:04

      This country is heading for partition whether you like it or not. You can not get rid of us coloured folk or white folk, who settled and built the Western Cape to what it is today. Us coloured folk are truly made in South Africa. I will much rather fight along the side of the white man than the black man. At least in the Western Cape we have been more equal, working side by side since before the new Tswane government. The Cape's people have always been different from the rest of South Africa. They are more liberated, more integrated and far more accommodating to mixed culture. What has the ANC ever brought us coloured folk in the last 17 years. Nothing but more poverty, more despair, more racism and no service. The ANC can keep bussing in Eastern Cape refugees to the Western Cape, because they soon realise when they arrive here that the DA are doing a better job than back home where NOTHING happens to uplift their lives. They in turn become DA supporters. It is time all the Voortrekkers came back home to the Cape.

      barend.heymans - 2012-02-16 09:29

      @LaCost.Domkwena:"This country shall never be partitioned, dream on babe". You are so right, you NEED the white people and do not dare let them build their own country away from you.

      Grimett - 2012-02-17 12:09

      DISTRICT SIX ?

      Peace - 2012-02-17 17:05

      I`m wondering whether it would be acceptable for blacks to go to Europe and claim an unused piece of land as theirs because it was not occupied by native Europeans and go as far as to say that a certain percentage was not occupied by native Europeans.

  • Charmain - 2012-02-15 19:48

    Give that man a Bells.

      SergeD69 - 2012-02-15 20:13

      Yeh, give Pieter a case of Bells !!

      Sean - 2012-02-17 19:09

      I bet you 90 % ANC members know absolutely f@kkol about history , ALL THEY KNOW AND EVER HEARD WAS ``THE WHITE MAN STOLE OUR LAND `` Lindiwe Sisulu knows the least , It`s always those who make the biggest noise , know f@kkol !

  • Cracker - 2012-02-15 19:50

    This country needs a realistic and honest land audit that will include what economic/agricultural activities are taking place on which land and under the control of whom. Land ownership not based on commercial considerations/efficiency will be the death knell of this country. Examples everywhere one cares to look where they tried experiments with land ownership and possession. Furthermore, nobody really cares about the skin color of the land owner. Those thinking or dreaming about a piece of land for self must think it through. Where and how? The truth is that some opportunists are licking their lips for that new elitist ownership.

      Irene - 2012-02-15 20:13

      Prove it Vegetable. Prove it's not true. Come on then little girl.

      Cracker - 2012-02-15 20:21

      @ Vegi What's not true in my comment? Your comments here exhibit a serious degree of HYSTERIA. The latter usually refers to uncontrolled mental agitation and even fear. The truth of my comment will eventually spread to practical results. You watch and see. And not because "Cracker" made the comment but because it is the most self-evident truth imaginable.

      Alex - 2012-02-15 22:31

      I wonder how much of South african land is government owned, and whether all the land they have already expropriated has in fact been redistributed. Information indicates that they haven't. Why hold on it I wonder?

      Multi - 2012-02-17 12:21

      @Alex. Land has been redistributed: Farmer sells land to government. Government divides up land and gives it to people. People have land but no means to till it or use it to better themselves. Farmer talks to people and buys back the land at a fraction of what he was paid for it in the first place. Everybody wins: people who got the land sell it back and get decent money for it AND the farmer gets his land, more money and most likely a few more workers (or sells it to a game farm).

  • Wayne Jacobs - 2012-02-15 19:51

    History is written/distorted by those who are in power. Serious consideration needs to be taken as to what are the actual facts. When I was taught history back in the apartheid years we were taught that the San were the original inhabitants before being hunted like animals by the Bantu.

      SergeD69 - 2012-02-15 20:09

      Yeh, the Moorish people invaded Northern Africa, all the way to Spain, and the African people were driven south..... even into South Africa..... thus they have no historical claim here!!!!!

      Herman - 2012-02-15 20:36

      Hi Pule, clearly you don't have a clue about your own peoples history. Why don't you do yourself a favor and do a bit of research. Point is, if you want to get land, you should work for it, not with baseless claims.

      Blip - 2012-02-15 20:55

      Yes the San (bushmen) were hunter-gatherers who, for obvious reasons, preferred hunting the domesticated livestock of both the indigenous resident Khoi herdsmen as well as that of the nomadic non-resident but equally-indigenous Bantu herders. Both the Khoi and the Bantu regarded the San as vermin, like jackals, to be killed. And this was 3000 years before any white person set foot on SA soil.

      Elsie - 2012-02-15 20:55

      Vegi doesn't have a clue

      Anton - 2012-02-15 20:58

      @ Pule Go and study history before 1995...you little twat.

      Warren - 2012-02-15 22:22

      @ Blip: What is the name of the 3000 year old history book that you base your facts on?

      Blip - 2012-02-16 03:23

      It's called the science of "palaeontology" and it employs real scientific techniques like radiocarbon dating and DNA analysis.

      Toemaar - 2012-02-16 09:11

      @Blip: The palaeontology you study is the brown stuff that comes from your bottom when you take a dump.

      Warren - 2012-02-16 09:44

      @ Blip: You are dodging the question! Let me rephrase, which scientific journal did you read to enable you to make your comment.

      Hugh - 2012-02-16 10:11

      @blip, seriously, political retoric is not fact, and since you probibly cant trace your own family heritiage further back then your grandmother, doesnt make the history you think to be true.

      Hendrik - 2012-02-16 10:40

      I've always been a bit amazed at the hysterics around the land claims issue. Surely scientific research and facts can/has conclusively shown that way, way back when it was the Koi and /or San that originally inhabited this portion of Africa. The 'darker skinned' people that moved south from the north drove the Koi and San away because they were physically superior in strength. If land has to be given back to any group, the last remaining decendants of the Koi & San people that are now scattered around should get back the bulk of the land which is now within the borders of the Republic of South Africa. Then the rightfull owners will have ownership back.

      Garth - 2012-02-16 11:48

      Craig you have been smoking some serious shiite. The `Bushman' paintings in the Drakensberg mountains tell tales of Nguni persecutions of the `People', told using a manner which the invading Ngunis did not possess, writing - not the written word, mind you. These writings in the form of pictures, tell of their history in a way which could not be distorted by modern historians and `bought' palaeontologists. The last of the `Bushmen' were killed or driven out - by ignorance, suspicion and fear - of the Drakensberg in the 1880s. The conquering force consisted of white and black; soldiers and land/cattle owners from both sides of the colour bar. Once the Bushmen were gone, the whites and blacks found new enemies - each other.

      Jack - 2012-02-16 20:26

      Well said J.R. The problem is that most people here are white and grew up under apartheid with all its propaganda. What both sides will agree with, is the Mfecane, which seriously changed land ownership from 1815 to 1840. This was an all African affair in which different tribes displaced each other and the impact thereof is felt even in modern Zimbabwe. Anyhow, land is an emotional issue in SA and any politician with a brain will use it to stir up support.

      Dewald - 2012-02-16 21:03

      @JR.lenoir - Palaeontology lies on the border between biology and geology, and shares with archaeology a border that is difficult to define. It now uses techniques drawn from a wide range of sciences, including biochemistry, mathematics and engineering.

      JR.lenoir - 2012-02-16 23:53

      @Dewald, I am a geologist (been one for nearly 13 years now). I'm well-aware what the distinctions are between palaeontology and archaeology are. Both of which I have an interest in. When people use palaeontology to describe archaeology, it absolutely baffles my mind. It's like saying a civil engineer is a mechanical engineer. There's certainly overlap in geochemical techniques, but the two disciplines focus on very different elements of our natural history. In a nutshell (and heavily simplified) for those who are unaware, palaeontology deals with the evolution of natural life on this planet. Archaeology deals with the pre-history of our species, how we became to be human, prior to recording our history.

  • Ant - 2012-02-15 19:51

    lol, "distort history". When the facts are inconvenient then they must have been distorted. Lindiwe, instead of sleeping in parliament, educate yourself. You are an embarrassment to your surname!

  • Gavibear - 2012-02-15 19:56

    Glad to see that there is finally a white man with enough balls to tell these racists what their "historic" claims are. They have no right to rape the land we acquired honestly and fairly. Shame on the ANC for still pursuing these racist lies.

      Elsie - 2012-02-15 20:55

      Vegi doesn't have a clue...

      Anton - 2012-02-15 21:24

      This VEGI is just another wrotten VEGI

      Hugh - 2012-02-16 10:16

      @lowcost, where land was expropriated by the 1913 land act, other land was given in compensation. Land sold by Dingaan and Shaka, to the Boers for legitimate currency/favor was legitimate, unless you're saying your kings had no right to sell their land? Don't be a dick

  • Larry - 2012-02-15 19:57

    Probably right, but the rules are different now. No matter what the historic facts are, the ANC has its own set of facts.

      Vegi - 2012-02-15 20:07

      It's true, the land belongs to us and no one else.

      Paul - 2012-02-15 20:23

      My dear vegetable friend. Seriously when did you pay for it? Where are your title deeds? O thats right you own it because someone told you so. So if i told you that your an idiot it must be true.......

      Cracker - 2012-02-15 20:25

      @ Vegi Why don't you explain in practical terms how you Vegi will acquire land for yourself and how all the other adults and families making up about 50 MILLION people will acquire their little pieces of land? Will the whole of Soweto for example have to take to the road to go live on their newly acquired land or will some elites claim to hold the land on their behalf? What shall the nation in any event eat and what about all the jobs in financial institutions, the retail trade, the current farm workers?

      phillip.havenga - 2012-02-15 20:28

      Vegetable, shhhhh little fool, go to sleep before your head explodes from all the rubbish bouncing around inside it.

      Paul - 2012-02-15 20:38

      Further to this the archaeological evidence also points out most of Southern Africa has been pretty much untouched until recent history is last 450 Years. Secondly the census on 1910 counted 1 million whites and 1 million black at the time. The census was done as part of the formation of the Union of South Africa in 1910. The truth is whites have not bred themselves by 800% versus any other group. Why has the Asian population in SA not exploded the same? Since this group of people were also subjugated to the Apartheid regime. So you cant blame apartheid on this one. Last I checked white people can't make black people but other colours are possible. Go figure

      Blip - 2012-02-15 20:58

      The ANC have the abundant hard evidence of archaeology, palaeontology, carbon-dating and DNA analysis to debunk the thin myths of Mulder and verkrampte conservative Afrikaner-Nationalists.

      Anton - 2012-02-15 21:00

      @Vegi Please concentrate on your school homework and leave this discussion to educated adults...

      Ben - 2012-02-15 21:18

      Yes Blip they might have all that but they dont understand it.

      Warren - 2012-02-15 21:47

      @ Blip: In which museum is this abundant hard evidence of archaeology, palaeontology, carbon-dating and DNA analysis? And why have I never seen this remarkable find on CNN News, or BBC News... or even on SABC News?

      PeggySven - 2012-02-15 21:56

      @Paul, the 1900 Census had the following population count. Blacks 4million, Whites 2million, Asians 500,000 and others 250,000. The figures you quote are sucked from I do not know where and would hate to find out. The fact that the Blacks have managed to increase their population from 4 to over 45 million, is still valid, especially as they keep telling everyone how millions were killed during Apartheid.

      Alex - 2012-02-15 22:33

      Cracker, I see Vegi hasn't answered. Obviously he can't...

      Paul - 2012-02-15 23:01

      @ PeggySven You are quite correct Apologies big difference between regional and national stats. Mia culpa.

      Craig - 2012-02-16 00:44

      @PEGGY 518 people were killed by the apartheid gvt - findings of the TRC...

      Blip - 2012-02-16 03:28

      You simply haven't looked for answers from authoritative palaentological research papers, Warren, because it would shatter the convenient myths you and Mulder prefer to cling to. Read wider than the propagandistic high school textbooks from the 60s.

      Smell - 2012-02-16 04:23

      Blip - please answer the question properly. Please quote the authoritive palaentological research papers on the subject. And not just the ones you like. There are many of us that are always open to enlightenment. Otherwise you come across like a bit of a poser.

      Merven - 2012-02-16 07:31

      @Craig, no, roughly 7000.

      Merven - 2012-02-16 09:10

      To the idiots that thumbed me down: According to a Human Rights Commission report submitted to the TRC (Truth and Reconciliation Commission) in 1997 the number of blacks that died during Apartheid (1948 to 1989) was 7 000. Compared to 14 000 for the period 1990 to 1994. Compared to 174 220 for the period 1994 to 2000 (under Nelson Mandela) The report also states that about 92% of deaths were caused by 'black-on-black' violence. (1990 to 1994) http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/report/

      Warren - 2012-02-16 09:32

      @ Blip: It's interesting to note that when you can't answer a simple question you are quick to pull the race card ("you and Mulder prefer to cling to"). Like Smell says, there are many of us that are always open to enlightenment. However I think you would make a good politician (just like Mr Mulder).

      PeggySven - 2012-02-16 10:30

      @Craig, there were a total of 22,000 unnatural deaths during the 40 years of Apartheid, 700 or so were criminals that were hanged, of the rest 80% was Black on Black violence, which leaves 4,266 deaths due to terrorism and the Bush war. The CancER government loves to say millions of Blacks were killed by the Security forces, which is a blatant lie.

      Dewald - 2012-02-16 22:24

      @vegi correction. the land belonged to your chiefs...or did everyone own a couple thousand hectares? Who will benefit from the land distribution? Will you, Vegi, benefit from it? How do most middle class white people benefit from land being owned by white farmers? Let me tell you the big secret. We are able to buy food. That is absolutely the only reason. Im not talking about huge game farms and other land not being cultivated...by all means redistribute those. But for god sake we need our pap en vleis. What did Apartheid provide the ordinary middle class white person? Education. Only the TOP cats were awarded large pieces of land. So for the rest of us it has and always will be hard work and make sure your kids get a decent education. So what do we as nation need to demand first and for most. Better schools and at least another 10 to 15 world class universities, I’m not even counting colleges. Land is not gonna help if you dont possess skills or capital to develop it.

  • Peter - 2012-02-15 19:59

    interesting

  • Tian - 2012-02-15 20:00

    At last Pieter Mulder deserves my respect.

      Vegi - 2012-02-15 20:07

      He is an impostor.

      Ronald - 2012-02-15 20:19

      A-HA, Vegi, and so are you!

      Blip - 2012-02-15 20:59

      For displaying his ancient ignorance? You're easily impressed!

      Anton - 2012-02-15 21:01

      I 2nd...

      Polotic - 2012-02-15 21:45

      From the responses by Vegi indicates a concerted effort to defend the indefensible. And to Blip- The ANC govrnment probably have all the evidence but don't want to inform their voters and supporters that Connie is telling the truth.

      Blip - 2012-02-16 03:31

      Connie? He's long dead.

      Vaaldonkie - 2012-02-16 09:39

      And yet, I'm friends with Connie Mulder and have been for a braai at his house ;)

      Hugh - 2012-02-16 10:25

      @ Blip, and you know about ancestral history? Please tell me how far back can you trace your OWN family heritage? Mother? Grandmother? Who's your daddy?

  • braamc - 2012-02-15 20:00

    Everything is always, we want we want we want

      lindz.kok - 2012-02-15 21:35

      wow look another m@nkey with a gun lmao!

      Warren - 2012-02-15 21:53

      @ Sjanga: The only reason you want the land for free is so that you can sell it back to the farmers (at half price)... as is already happening.

      Snoopy - 2012-02-16 07:58

      Sganja. I will set my entire farm on fire, poison the ground & water, break down the houses, and sell all farm animanls before giving you anything! We had to work for what we have achieved in life! SO CAN YOU! Jou handjies is nie gebreklik nie. RACIST BAFOON!

  • lindz.kok - 2012-02-15 20:02

    lol that is so cool! there is actualy dokumented statements by the boers of old where they state that they actualy steered away from black owned land towards south africas interior to avoid conflict due to a lack of gun powder. but acording to the anc all of south africa use to be black owned land lol. good on you for telling it like it is!

      Jack - 2012-02-16 20:46

      well, that should tell you that there were blacks in the South. I think the real anger is still about policies implemented post 1945, where we all do know that there were forced removals (district 6 etc). Forget what happened before that. Goodness...what a mess!

  • Irene - 2012-02-15 20:05

    Well said Peter Mulder. Teach them the truth. Teach them the facts. So sad that they don't like hearing the truth or the facts. It's much easier to demand and lay claim to what isn't yours. Much easier than working for it.

      Blip - 2012-02-15 21:00

      Mulder's "truth" is but a myth.

      Polotic - 2012-02-15 21:50

      @Blip - If you are so adamant that Mulder is wrong then provide the proof.

      Warren - 2012-02-15 21:56

      @ Blip: Lol, the only thing that is a myth is your "3000" year old history book.

      Blip - 2012-02-16 03:30

      It's a 10000 year old archaeological record. It's contained in bones and teeth and DNA, not in books. And it's incontrovertible.

      Smell - 2012-02-16 04:28

      Blip. First you claim your source as "authoritive palaentological research papers", implying a meta analysis of some sort. Seems like we are now down to one paper. So what is this paper dude, and was it published and accepted in peer reviewed journal?

      Naledi Mabindla - 2012-02-16 06:40

      Now we must believe accounts from settlers and boers?people really please go study proper history like the use of disease like small pox and to wipe out khoisans and africans in order to take land,stealing land from blacks happened right up until the 1900s when blacks were moved to elsewhere to create white suburbs. what I detest about this country is how no one wants to take responsibility for what happened in the past,grabbing land from the natives was done by all europeans who invade land in different continents so why in south africa does that change to it never happened!Mulder stop distorting an already distorted history that we were forced to learn at school

      Merven - 2012-02-16 07:35

      Accounts from people with writing is much more trustworthy than naked people running around with sticks that carry over stories from generation to generation via word.

      Vaaldonkie - 2012-02-16 09:40

      Naledi is confusing American and South African history...

      barend.heymans - 2012-02-16 09:59

      @Naledi.Mabindla; You very poorly informed individual, do you really believe they, in those days, had the means to kill people with disease? Your reasoning reflects a lesser degree of communicating ability than other commentators on this subject. It would be very much appreciated if you could reveal the source of this knowledge that you have.

      Elle-Black - 2012-02-16 10:03

      @ Naledi you truly are a star,Malema got them so scared that they will attempt anything even trying to rewrite history,it's disgusting. next thing they will say Apartheid never happened it's a figment of our imagination. Having said that I do not agree with land grabs,We have a constitution adopted under a democratic state and it is the highest law of the land,we cant just discard it and run amock just because things are moving slowly. Nobody ,regardless of skin colour is "entitled" to anything,we have a way of doing things I think the correct steps should be followed in acquiring land or resources.

      Dewald - 2012-02-16 22:55

      @Naledi How do you think history was recorded, From Columbus to to Dias to Jan van Riebeeck, Or was these records stored in writing or maybe on a ipad in a Zulu hut somewhere. No disrespect but almost all known history was written down with the dates, keeping a journal etc. Sure people where forcefully removed and land was stolen, but hey guess what it happened on every continent. Not just by whites but by almost every single race. Indians on Indians, Blacks on blacks etc you get the picture. Guess what it is still happening. Sudan, Korea Middle East Central Africa... It is human nature. We can try and move on but I've got a nasty suspicion that history will repeat itself like it always does.

  • Jan Louw - 2012-02-15 20:06

    Gee dai man n klokkie

  • Chappies ZA - 2012-02-15 20:08

    Double Thumbs up for Pieter !! About time. Evenn if we give all the land back with its current state, would love to see what will be left of it in 3 years time. Vegi why dont you go and farm vegies....?

      Irene - 2012-02-15 20:11

      Chappies, Vegi doesn't want to farm vegetables because it's too much like hard work. He'd rather somebody else did it then he could claim it as his.

      Elle-Black - 2012-02-17 08:16

      @ Chappie ëven if we get the land back'? LMAO do you believe this dribble? and do you honestly think something was taken from you that tyou need to get back? you're thick

  • Adri - 2012-02-15 20:13

    Bl00dy well done Mulder! So there is some brains in the parliament after all! Just a pity the Majority does not.

      Blip - 2012-02-15 21:01

      Mulder's clinging to an old lie. So are you.

      Vaaldonkie - 2012-02-16 09:41

      Blip is clinging to a new lie. he probably also believes in Africa's own El Dorado, namely The kingdom of Mapungubwe.

  • Vegi - 2012-02-15 20:14

    You are lying Mulder. The sans and the Khoisans are our ancestors. We inherited the land from them. Even some of our languages are based on the languages of the Khoi and the San. We inherited their clicks as well as the land. The Khoi and the San's blood is running through our veins and the fact that you are salivating for our land is not going to change that. What do you expect. Do you expect the inheritence of our ancestors to go to other people. Never.

      Irene - 2012-02-15 20:18

      Jeepers Vegetable, did you bunch fight over your inheritance? We don't inherit 'clicks', we inherit wealth. What else did you inherit, other than a 'click'?

      Carla - 2012-02-15 20:26

      Irene, he diffidently did not inherit any brain, the lights are on, but there's no one home...

      lindz.kok - 2012-02-15 20:30

      where on earth did you come across those "facts" word of mouth isnt historic facts dokumented history and archiological evidence are facts however. both the african and european nations all but wiped out the bushman, it was genocide not a breeding program lol

      Sharon - 2012-02-15 20:39

      http://www.therightperspective.org/2010/05/02/90-black-farms-failing-in-south-africa/ @ Vegi, please explain this article to us - Is it not better to let the farmers do what they do best, and say thank you for the meal, or thank you that we don't need to import food? Your ignorance is painful.

      Cracker - 2012-02-15 20:40

      @ Vegi Don't be silly. Your expectations are built on some nostalgic longing for an idyllic existence based on the land your so-called forefathers lost. So, does it entitled all the other millions of people living in townships to start moving out and taking their little pieces of land? What will the rest of us in the cities eat? The world does not care one little iota about the silly notion that you can turn back the historical clock to suit your particular wishes to the exclusion of reality. FEED the nation allow the available resources for it to be utilized properly. Why on earth would a million or two Sowetans suddenly transform into sustainable farmers? Go to Zim if you want an idyllic existence. In Zim the power is about to be permanently extinguished. Follow the news. They can't anymore afford to pay the suppliers. What preceded that deplorable and famine state? Yes, stealing and giving land to inefficient farmers and so-called community farmers - the latter apparently very few in number while the new elite took over the land and countries like South Africa have to deal with the human fall-out streaming out of Zimbabwe into this country where some like you would like to see the same policies implemented. Forget it.

      Sybil - 2012-02-15 20:53

      Take the all the land, with no agriculture experience. Take the homes from the white people.Create your own businesses, cultivate the land, feed the people. Then anc must send all the whites into another country. We will be back to build up South Africa again, and build this beautiful country again, with people that want to make it work for all.

      Anton - 2012-02-15 21:03

      You are such a confused little "dweep"

      Anton - 2012-02-15 21:28

      @ Cracker You are confusing this "vegi's" brains..if ther are any?

      Adam - 2012-02-15 22:10

      Vegi, you should have inherited a klap and not a click

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-02-15 23:44

      According to SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, all of humanity originated in Africa... therefore the land belongs (by genetic default) to EVERYONE. Good luck dishing out the land to 7 billion people, EQUALLY.

      TaniaSandraSteyn - 2012-02-15 23:52

      Vegi, there are some things that you say that I agree with. On this matter - not. If their is DNA evidence of the Bantu in the Western Cape, it would be from deaths/altercations due to grazing rights between the tribes, or raping of the San/Khoi San. The lifestyle was: 'follow your cattle as they graze'. There was no permanent settlement. There would be very little or no evidence in the Karoo as there was no grazing. Entirely besides the point anyway. They started an initiative outside Uitenhage where numerous people living in Kwanobuhle were given an acre of land to till and grow vegetables on. Some did a great job; others sold their free implements and didn't give a damn. When it came to harvesting time - the guys (mostly women) who worked hard had their crops stolen. The entire project collapsed. They are now hiring commercial farmers to till the land, take care of the crops, and the veggies are sold to benefit the community. It cost millions, and it came to naught. Be careful what you wish for.

      Hugo - 2012-02-19 08:10

      true vegi

  • SergeD69 - 2012-02-15 20:14

    And the English and multinationals have no right to our mineral wealth...

      Anton - 2012-02-15 21:14

      ...en waar "pop" jy nou uit die "closet"

      alansmartSnr - 2012-02-16 00:14

      LOL Anton.. goed gesê.. Die simple mense weet nie waarvan hul praat nie!

      Alisha - 2012-02-16 09:20

      Nguni tribes (Zulus and Xhosas) were still in the early iron age when white people of the industrial age identified the value of minerals here. Black people had no use for them and never valued them above any other rocks. Sorry, Finder's keepers. Too bad, too sad.

      Fidel - 2012-02-16 13:48

      @Alisha I'm sure that the Zulu'spears were made of wood.

      JR.lenoir - 2012-02-16 18:22

      @Fidel Nope, Ngunis were mostly early iron age. There's evidence that Africans were actually on par (technologically) with Europe up until Europe started waging war on the Arabs during the Crusades. The truth is that much of Europe's developments were as a result of that war and their contact with (at the time) moderate and enlightened Islam (not to be mistaken with militant Islam of modernity). Spain, under the Moors was a learning centre. Incidentally, one tribe in North Africa skipped the iron age completely and actually went through a copper age (owing to a lack of iron). The interesting thing is that due to a lack of copper, Africa never went through a bronze age (and not because of inability, but merely a lack of available copper).

      SergeD69 - 2012-02-16 23:42

      Seems the Boer war 110 year ago was because of the country's nice weather, beautiful nature and for rights for the indigenous people? Right?

      SergeD69 - 2012-02-17 00:02

      What about all the copper in Zambia?

      luqman.kajee - 2012-02-17 12:07

      going on what you just said...So....you have no right to their technology either then?

  • Sarel van Deventer - 2012-02-15 20:19

    land moet gegee word vir mense wat kan boer!!! 90 percent of land given to blacks are waisted, buildings and equipment stripped to nothing. Farmers dont make lots of money, farming is a lifestyle, its done because its in a farmers blood, learn to farm first idiots!!!

      Anton - 2012-02-15 21:15

      Sarel, ek stem met jou 100% saam...

      Stefanus - 2012-02-16 08:24

      @Sarel, learn to spell you uneducated retard

      schalk.mattheys - 2012-02-16 10:10

      @Stefanus...learn to say something constructive you troll...

  • Sarel van Deventer - 2012-02-15 20:20

    land moet gegee word vir mense wat kan boer!!! 90 percent of land given to blacks are waisted, buildings and equipment stripped to nothing. Farmers dont make lots of money, farming is a lifestyle, its done because its in a farmers blood, learn to farm first idiots!!!

  • Sarel van Deventer - 2012-02-15 20:20

    land moet gegee word vir mense wat kan boer!!! 90 percent of land given to blacks are waisted, buildings and equipment stripped to nothing. Farmers dont make lots of money, farming is a lifestyle, its done because its in a farmers blood, learn to farm first idiots!!!

      Garth - 2012-02-16 12:02

      I wonder if the people who are `thumbing' all 3 posts of your comment are saying `Wow! Deja vu!'?

  • J.D. - 2012-02-15 20:23

    Yes and so the DA WIIL take the Northen Cape during the next election.

      SergeD69 - 2012-02-15 20:39

      Perhaps time to restore the Republics of the Transvaal, the Orange Free State and Swellendam.

      Nyaziwe - 2012-02-15 20:40

      This country is not about white vs Black or visa versa...you cant take the land or province but you can only govern it...we will all die and leave this planet as it is...Grow up!!!

      Sganja - 2012-02-15 20:52

      "Yes and so the DA WIIL take the Northen Cape during the next election."J.D fallacy Fallacy Fallacy Fallacy Fallacy Fallacy Fallacy, now go and sleep.

      Hugo - 2012-02-19 08:13

      Serge wake up

  • Ambi - 2012-02-15 20:29

    LOL this should spark some furious debate...he has a point

      Blip - 2012-02-16 03:43

      He has a myth. A fairytale.

      Smell - 2012-02-16 04:31

      Blip has one paper and big attitude. I am dying to read that article.

      Warren - 2012-02-16 09:55

      @ Smell: Me too!!!

      Garth - 2012-02-16 12:17

      `Blip Noodlum'? Is that really your name? Cannot be! Wow, your parents obviously resented your intrusion into their lives. Enough of that, now be a good boy and go and get those 10,000 year old scientific papers, sorry evidence, sorry beliefs that you are referring to. And while you are at it Blip, is that really your name, sorry, why don't you break out your useless, worthless anc membership card and also show us the receipts for when this palaeoanthropological, new word huh, stuff was bought.

      Jack - 2012-02-16 20:39

      He does make some good points about the current situation of government not acting upon land offers and not paying farmers who gave up their land. However, it is hard to prove the historical stuff and you must acknowledge that the apartheid government did have a warped perspective on history...

  • Ambi - 2012-02-15 20:31

    Yes please MR President explain whats happened to the land that the Govt bought or took from White farmers????

      Anton - 2012-02-15 21:17

      I also want to know...

      Merven - 2012-02-16 07:39

      Everybody know what happened to the land, but no one wants to acknowledge or even say it.

      Gerhard - 2012-02-16 08:35

      Simple, it was given to blacks who then sold it back to whites. They now want more land so that they can repeat the cycle.

  • Adri - 2012-02-15 20:38

    Debating with the "Veg" is the same as speaking to a dear or rabbit. You need intelligence for "it" to understand and correctly reply, but as we've all seen - the "Veg" cleary has the same mentality of the Majority in the parliament and will not for a second consider your attempts at trying to make him understand. Lets stop waisting our precious energy on ID10t's like him.

      Blip - 2012-02-16 03:44

      A dear? Dear what?

      Merven - 2012-02-16 07:40

      Lol, Blip is the only idiot that supports Vegi, what's the bet that they are the one and same person.

      Vaaldonkie - 2012-02-16 09:43

      Or maybe Vegi is his "kombuis-kind"...

      Merven - 2012-02-16 12:07

      Maybe Blip is Vegi's kombuiskind?

  • Eeny Meeny Miney Mo - 2012-02-15 20:47

    The racists are out again. We make up 9% of the population and decreasing. Blacks make up 80%. Land was taken not bought...taken from black people get that through your thick heads. Yet we are owed! Black people our is nothing!

      Eeny Meeny Miney Mo - 2012-02-15 20:48

      Black people owe us nothing.

      Riaan - 2012-02-15 21:04

      I don't see how you can be part of the 'we'. You are part of the cannon fodder 80%.

      Anton - 2012-02-15 21:34

      What the hell does this mean..."BLACK PEOPLE OUR IS NOTHING"?..TWAT.

      Celtis - 2012-02-15 21:49

      And who did you buy the land from Eeny?

      Hugh - 2012-02-16 10:34

      Eeny, land was expropriated, true, but compensated with other lands in a different area. Do they give back that land when they get back that what was taken from them? Surly that is the right thing to do? Just doesn't happen that way. double compensation.

      TaniaSandraSteyn - 2012-02-16 14:58

      I like your second comment better, Eeny.

  • Themba - 2012-02-15 20:49

    Well done honourable mr mulder u are certainly a very good hitorian.When some people compromise their history 4 political positions,allow the courts to alter their history in the name of democracy &the constitution havent our black brothers who have alowed this violation of our freedom chater heard of the amendment of the constitution.The patience of our people have been tested from the day honourale mulders forefather landed in 1652.If we continue sweeping these things under the carpet our children will never know why Mandela was in prison.

      Cracker - 2012-02-15 21:10

      Quite frankly, Themba, your children will not be for long enough to ponder the political issues if the land is taken over for non-commercial reasons. They will be afflicted and occupied by malnourishment, possibly even while finding themselves in a neighboring country like we see with the Zimbabweans.

      Cracker - 2012-02-15 21:13

      Correction: ...your children will not for long be able to ponder...

      Anton - 2012-02-15 21:37

      Jy het nie 'n "koek & clue" waarvan jy praat nie...twat.

      Blip - 2012-02-16 03:47

      Mandela was in prison because he was convicted on charges of sabotage. He blew up power pylons.

      Stefanus - 2012-02-17 19:55

      @Cracker, be quiet you pigskin cracker!

  • SARealist - 2012-02-15 20:52

    Finally somebody with Balls has stood up and spoken the truth. The journals and history books have been written. But can Susulu show us her library books that were written prior to 1652 and after. The ANC can't rub out the truth which was already recorded in history and replace it with the ANC Rhetoric. Viva MULDER Viva. Where after 18 years in power can the ANC cannot show us a full STATE LAND inventory? The ANC can't even get all the house & farm ownerships on one database to see you owns what! Surely the Zulu Kingdom has a major percentage of "Land Ownership in Natal? Just a thought!

  • Sinudeity - 2012-02-15 20:53

    1900, the black population wasnt even 2 million. Now the ANC would have us believe that 2 million black people (who lived in communities) were diffused across the whole of South Africa?

      Sganja - 2012-02-15 20:56

      Mlondolozi are you not sleeping? the land belong to Africans...finish and klaar

      Sinudeity - 2012-02-15 21:27

      Nah, I only sleep during the day. Im an African by the way :P

      Sunshine - 2012-02-16 02:30

      Sganja we're all Africans, all of us, everyone of us born here. That's why we include 'Africa' in our country's name.

      Hugo - 2012-02-19 08:17

      problem is that some people once called themselves european

  • Raymond - 2012-02-15 20:57

    If the land that has been "given" back to its "rightful " owners , why do they not farm the land or do something productive ? Why does the govt not let commercial farmers be mentors to new land owners ? Look at the service delivery protests - why do they happen ? Some people are hiding behind stories ,not facts .We will only win as a team , I do not care who screws up , white or black , they must both be treated equal and get their asses kicked !!

      TaniaSandraSteyn - 2012-02-16 15:07

      Many White Farmers do mentorships, and the upcoming Farmers do well with their help and guidance. There are regular articles in the Dairy Mail, Landbouweekblad and Farmer's Weekly. While everyone else are frothing at the mouth, the Farmers carry on and do what they do best: Farm. No Farmer wants a struggling neighbour. Fences are cut when fields are over-grazed, animals are not vaccinated and spread diseases long considered under control and weeds and pests from the adjacent farm quickly spreads to yours. It is in the best interests of ALL farmers to work together, and most of them do.

  • Johnnie - 2012-02-15 21:00

    Did the Minister of Defence ever have history in school? In case not the subject is HISTORY.

      Blip - 2012-02-16 03:50

      Mulder's not dealing in history either. He's selling mythology.

  • Isabel - 2012-02-15 21:02

    Dr. Mulder is absolute correct, what he did not mention is the fact that the Koi Sans were in the Western Cape, Eastern Cape and Northern Cape; for the past 160,000 years.... as it was pointed out tonight on Pasela by scientists. Most of them speak Afrikaans today. Would it be absurd then to say that those three regions rightfully belong, to an indigenous Afrikaans speaking nation? I am from the Freestate and I am not emigrating to Australia, but to the Western Cape, to my Afrikaans speaking buddies.

      Sganja - 2012-02-15 21:10

      Hi Isabel Majority rules, you can go to Cape Town but that won’t stop us to demand our belongings.

      Cracker - 2012-02-15 21:20

      Where are your belongings then that does not also belong to the rest of the 50 million or so people in South Africa. They will not wish to share with you. Think a bit further.

      Isabel - 2012-02-15 21:24

      You are right Sganja, that is why the DA rules the Western Cape and not the ANC. Majority rules.

      Blip - 2012-02-16 03:52

      Bantu-African skeletons 10000 years old, and others of 9000 years, 8000 years etc have been dug up in Cape Town. So they've been and gone many times in the past 10000 years -- long before the first white set foot on SA.

      Merven - 2012-02-16 07:52

      yes Blip, nobody denies that the Bushmen were in the Cape, but NOT the Zulus and Xhosa etc that make up the ANC and other political parties that demands land. IF the ANC is so noble, they must give all the land in the Cape Province to the Bushmen.

      Tommy - 2012-02-16 08:34

      Blib, just where did they dig up these remains. I'm from Cape Town, and such a big find surely deserves a visit.

      johanna.nel - 2012-02-16 10:42

      @Blip they were lost

      hennie.buys1 - 2012-02-16 13:24

      @blip, your arguments are rediculous. Why not just rewrite the entire worlds history, your thinking is racist in itself as that is the only crireria you use. What people were these "bantu skeltons" Zulu? Xosa? Pedi? Northern Sotho? If you can answer that the maybe you have a claim. Also, if we used your idea of who Africa belongs to, what then happens to all the Africans that now live in Europe, isn't that "white mans land". Should they then all be deproted to Africa. What about the Chinese in Afrika you think our leaders will send them packing?

  • bruning.vankriekenbeek - 2012-02-15 21:19

    Mulder is spot on. 1. Natives never practiced individual land ownership, but 2. Practiced "farming" on communal tribal lands managed by chieftains. 3. These tribal lands lay within defined areas, which were generally restricted to the homelands, or exchanged for ground within the homelands. 4. The black population grew from around 3.4m in 1904 to >44m today. There is no basis for a "claim" to more land other than was originally owned simply because of the increase in numbers. Nowhere in the world does entitlement increase due to the number of offspring. The same land shared by 3.4m is therefore to be shared by 44m. The "claims" are simply ostentatious hot air.

      lindz.kok - 2012-02-15 21:33

      wow brilliantly said!

      Blip - 2012-02-16 04:07

      Earliest Bantu peoples firstly survived by hunting-gathering nomadically, and when they started herding domesticated stock 3000 years ago they moved their herds to new pastures whenever the population concentrations grew too large or conditions were less than ideal. And these black nomads were in the Western Cape 10000 years ago and then trekked away again. And came back. And left again. And again. As nomads do, whether as hunters or as herdsmen.

      Merven - 2012-02-16 07:54

      So Blip, if I camp in a caravan park for a week, I can claim it because I was there for a while? Wow, nice.

      bruning.vankriekenbeek - 2012-02-16 08:31

      Blip, if the repeated periodic traversal of land constitute ownership, I would really appreciate it if you would prepare my title deeds to the Kruger National Park, the US and half of Europe

      Toemaar - 2012-02-16 09:53

      It seems like Blip is very good at copying and pasting. In every comment of it I see "some bollocks about 10000 years and then some more". WHAHAHAHA what an IGNORAMUS.

      Hugo - 2012-02-19 08:18

      'Natives'

  • Ricus - 2012-02-15 21:34

    Dit is 'n baie interesante webwerf! http://nuwegeskiedenis.co.za/

  • Louis Hager - 2012-02-15 21:36

    Unlike Lindiwe Sisulu, I love doing research. My research has put me in contact with documents that proofs, that under British rule, land was bought, through the official channels for MONEY, DONKEYS, HORSES and that good old friend of some LIQUOR. Land wasn't stolen, your "ancestors" just conveniently drank out the terms of payment and worked the livestock to death. O and if you wonder why Brittain helped the ANC during Apartheid, it's called Politics. Guess eho owns your beloved mines that somehow never gets Nationalised?

      Hugo - 2012-02-19 08:20

      She has a PhD

  • Jacques - 2012-02-15 22:59

    asking for logic is to much... Black people wants everything because they are now in control, and have power. Its not about history... its about taking it, wanting it now and not paying for it.... and most of the land will become non productive... then when food becomes a problem they will steel, kill and destroy...

      TaniaSandraSteyn - 2012-02-16 00:17

      Not everyone, Jacques. Don't lose the friends you could possibly make with blanket statements.

  • Cracker - 2012-02-15 22:59

    Destroy the commercial basis of farming in this country and replace it with race as the qualifier for farming land ownership/possession and we will observe the fascinating trek across our borders due do hunger and other deprivations into the countries of previously housed people within our borders. We shall see how they react given some of the experiences they had at the hands of South Africans. In the meanwhile the average South African will not get a piece of land. Not at all. The new elite will take over. For their own benefit. And how will people be able to argue with them?

  • Cracker - 2012-02-15 23:01

    The point is that all the historically motivated arguments mean very little. You will either have food available or your won't. Or you will still have a job or you won't. You as an average South African will definitely not receive land. Imagine all the millions suddenly claiming and trekking for land.

  • wesley.bischoff - 2012-02-15 23:30

    The only people who have any reasonable right to claim land in this country are the Khoi-San. They were here long before Europeans AND 'bantu-speaking' people.

      smahlaba - 2012-02-16 17:15

      That is so true. What about their rights seriously. Maybe Mr Mulder doesn't understand that the Khoi San are as important as other South Africans.

  • thilo.klingenberg - 2012-02-15 23:50

    I must commend Pieter Mulder for speaking out like he did. Finally someone with guts. While I originally had my doubts about his role as Deputy Minister, it seems that he is actually standing up for what he believes in. As to all the comments that Blip has made, as some others have said on their comments, it is strange that if there is so much "proof" as Blip says, that this is not being taught in school history, especially since the Books have been re-written for the New SA. Secondly, if what Blip says is correct (and I don't belive it is) then the "Bantu Migratory Wave" 1000 years before the 1770 wave, waived their rights to the land when they left for 1000 years. So we are back to square one and recorded history, not the Carbon dating theories that the Blip's of the world believe in. It is quite clear that if we go back in time that the only indigenous people that have an historical claim are the San and the Khoi.

      Blip - 2012-02-16 04:11

      Mulder merely displayed his dreadful historical ignorance with his fatuous old 1960s Nat fairytale.

  • Craig - 2012-02-16 00:38

    What does that sisulu coconut know about anything other than wasting money and not paying our soldiers? She is a disgrace to the memory of her father! What part of the truth dont these lazy politicians understand? Mulder is 100% correct...

      Hugo - 2012-02-19 08:22

      if you cant beat them hate them

  • marina.poniatowska - 2012-02-16 00:54

    oh boy

  • Yanga Giyose - 2012-02-16 03:39

    I honestly can't believe how racist and angry you all are, blacks and whites alike. Its 2012 and we're still riding our mother's and father's hatred toward the different racial divides. Truth of the matter is though that the ANC is the ruling party and it represents black hopes of financial prosperity, and the efforts (however futile or ineffective they are) being made by the government provide some comfort to Black South Africans. I understand why many whites feel agrieved by the land reform structures imposed by the government, because nw they loose so much of there ridiculous hectares of inherited land, bt then again I also feel empathy for those black families who cannot aford land or who have to work as labourers for white farmers. Exploited because they have no other means of survival. Ag and please stop complaining abt the crime, we're all victims to it u f+-ks. For ur information, they steal and kill us to. We're all suffering as a result of white greed in the past, not to say its right bt so shall we all suffer from black greed at the present. So before you classify all of us as thieves and immoral beings, check your fathers and grandfathers track records and see if all is rosey there...

      Dewald - 2012-02-16 23:42

      @Yanga Crime is a direct result of poverity I agree, but killing and raping where does that come from. The goverment is alowing this...Death penality. Kill a human being and your right to live has expired. Unforunately the ANC cant govern, they have created a breeding ground for organised crime. The army is basically non existent causing crime to spill over from neibouring countries(border patrol). Stop think about the past. What is happening right here in the present. Who is in control? Who is the law?

  • Sunshine - 2012-02-16 03:47

    I don't personally care what the colour of a farmer's skin is as long as there's sufficient quantity and quality of food available for the country. 62% of our population were urbanised as of 2010. If millions of people want to move out of the cities to farm in the North West or Limpopo or wherever fine with me, maybe then I can find some parking!

  • Saamprater - 2012-02-16 06:10

    Mulder and truth 1 cANCer and lies 0 Its time the real recorded and verifiable truth be heard. Not old folk racist laden stories as told by Max and Juli-ass. For real lasting peace, I think the time has come for the Afrikaner to have his piece of land, very much like the Zulu, Sotho's, Venda etc. And yes uncle JZ, its not the farmers who don't do their bit, its your pathetic departments that are laden with incompetent, thick corrupt boetie-boetie appointments (cadres)

  • Andile - 2012-02-16 06:49

    Mr Mulder before the 1884 Berlin Conference Africa had no borders, all her land belonged to its people (Cape to Cairo, Morroco to Madagascar in todays names). This includes the time that Jan van Riebeek set his inhumane feet on this land. Its no longer feasible for us to negotiate in faith, it's time decisive action is taken. We lack governance efficiency though...Some of us have always said "Izwe Lethu"

      Merven - 2012-02-16 08:00

      'We lack governance efficiency though.' NO sh*t Sherlock, Africa never had a black efficient government. That is why there were never borders.

      Douglas - 2012-02-16 20:48

      you are a barbarian

  • Al-ameen - 2012-02-16 07:21

    Mulder should go and read Sol Plaatje's Native Life and acquaint himself with how not only land was stolen from Africans, but how also their livestock and how blacks, if they wanted to stay on the land of their birth, had to become slaves of white farmers.

      Wim - 2012-02-16 16:03

      How can you believe someone who took his name from the whiteman? But did he expand on black thieving and stealing as well?

      Naledi Mabindla - 2012-02-17 03:12

      Craig your comment measures your intelligence

      Fidel - 2012-02-17 10:25

      Not forgetting our labour!

  • Johnathan - 2012-02-16 07:26

    At last ... somebody who has the b....s to actually create debate and not take the aligning stance that the ANC is always correct. Pitty he did not mention how the Bantu people pushed the kalahari people from the savannah's into the deserts. Before there where white or black people there where kalahari people. If anything the ANC should be kalahari people who originally had the land. Point being this is possibly the most blatant distortion of facts being used to gain a majority following. mmmmm .... wonder how the land bank going bankrupt and being defrauded by CEO's affected the property stats. Guess it can only be the willing buyer / seller method failing causing the issues and never could it be a parastatal that is not functioning.

  • Witness Sombhane - 2012-02-16 07:47

    People let us all face reality dis land reform has not been working i think we let the poeple who are in charge 2 continue wit their great work an the government shuld find a way 2 compensate those who claim the land is theirs, otherwise mugabe will be a hero.

  • Xolile Templeton Mbayi - 2012-02-16 07:52

    Look if all just found satisfaction with their indigenous land, the same way Africans have. The world would been such a peaceful place.

      Jessica Wright - 2012-02-16 08:20

      You forget tribal wars ie bantu vs khoi-san not to mention modern genocides, namely rwanda, and the matabelaland* massacres.

      Jessica Wright - 2012-02-16 08:21

      You forget tribal wars ie bantu vs khoi-san not to mention modern genocides, namely the one in Rwanda, and the matabelaland* massacres in zimbabwe.

      Fidel - 2012-02-16 17:09

      It was starvation and deseases that brought Europeans to the colonies.