News24

Bungling spies alerted Zille to phone tap

2011-03-09 22:34

Johannesburg - Western Cape Premier Helen Zille insisted on Wednesday that her telephone calls were once being monitored by the National Intelligence Agency (NIA).

Zille said that she and her husband had spoken to then intelligence minister Ronnie Kasrils about the bugging of her phones at a meeting on 14 February 14 2008.

"On January 8 2008 at 06:20, my husband Johann answered the phone on the desk in my study," Zille said in a statement.

"He heard the sound of tapes re-winding and clicking. He then heard a tape recording of conversations that I had had in the room. He made notes of the conversation that was played back on this recording.

"My husband and I made an appointment to see the then minister of national intelligence, Ronnie Kasrils on February 14 2008."

Rogue elements

Zille said Kasrils undertook to establish whether there had been any official directive to intercept her telephone conversations.

"He reverted to us. He said there had been no official directive but he 'could not guarantee' that 'rogue elements' had not done so unilaterally and this would be almost impossible to establish."

Zille said at roughly the same time, news had emerged and was emerging about the abuse of state institutions in the political battle between former president Thabo Mbeki and his political rival, Jacob Zuma.

"Then Premier (Ebrahim) Rasool established a commission of inquiry to investigate certain alleged unlawful activities in the City of Cape Town.

"These allegations were primarily directed towards discrediting me and the Democratic Alliance," Zille said.

Unlawful

"During the course of this investigation, it emerged that the police had obtained a full record of every phone call I had made or received during the preceding months.

"I contacted my service provider and asked how it was possible that the police had this information. My service provider informed me that they had received an 'order' to release the information.

"I could not establish whether that order had emanated from the commission of inquiry, or from a judge, but I made it absolutely clear to my service provider that they had acted unconstitutionally.

The commission of inquiry was declared 'unlawful' by the High Court as it was "politically motivated".

"I believed that the monitoring of my calls, both on cell and landline, was part of a politically motivated strategy against me," Zille said.

Nothing on paper

Zille said her cabinet had a meeting with representatives of the State Security Agency in the Western Cape after she became premier in 2009.

"I asked the State Security Agency representatives for an assurance that neither myself nor other members of the cabinet 'were or are' under any form of surveillance."

The director general of the province then wrote a letter to the director general of the national State Security Agency, asking whether any person in the "Western Cape Provincial Cabinet is under surveillance" by the NIA.

The DG, said Zille, received no reply to this letter.

"I have on several occasions followed up with the Western Cape representatives of the SSA. They have verbally assured me that they have not issued instructions for any such surveillance but they have declined to give us this assurance in writing. "

Saddened

Earlier on Wednesday the NIA denied that it was monitoring Zille's telephone calls.

"Western Cape Premier Helen Zille's claims that the NIA was monitoring her calls are not true," state security ministry spokesperson Brian Dube said in a statement.

"We are very saddened by such claims coming from her given that our Western Cape office works very closely with her office, providing intelligence products to support the work of government," Dube said.

Zille first made the claim during a debate in the provincial legislature on Tuesday.

Comments
  • Hans-Erik Iken - 2011-03-09 22:58

    National INTELLIGENCE Agency? I propose it gets renamed to just National Agency. After all it is unfair to claim something you obviously do not posess.

      Michael - 2011-03-09 23:20

      ANC=Apartheids new camouflage.

      madras - 2011-03-10 06:33

      Spot on

      vajosh - 2011-03-10 07:53

      I agree with you Hans-Erik ... what INTELLIGENCE? DEFINITELY unfair to claim something they obviouslydo NOT possess!!

      THX1148 - 2011-03-10 08:37

      NLIA - National Lack-of Intelligence Agency

      lovemoz17 - 2011-03-10 09:10

      This ANC government is worse that the Apartheid one .... and that is a scary comment from me! The reason is that the ANC should have learned from the previous regime ... it has now become worse than the apartheid regime!!!!

      BigMoose - 2011-03-10 09:38

      In Cape Town they are called NIAers

      Jayjay001 - 2011-03-10 09:41

      You guys are saying valid stuff, could all the racists amongst us minorities slow down on the insults. Many fellow Black South Africans are SICK of this Corrupt, Cronyist ANC but hearing nuts like the racist minorities only makes them dig deeper into the ANC, so while we're angry about minority oppression, we're only pushing them into helping sustain the racist monster itself - the ANC. What we need is people to FIGHT (legally) the battle against the ANC and towards what our Constitution says about everyone being equal, as the ANC's Nationalism and racism is only but one ticket to the rest of impoverished Africa. For them only to be asking for money from the west, while the top bods live the high life like in Africa. Where Noble fight for Black African freedom becomes a ticket for some to live the high life decades after Colonisation ended, on the backs of foreign aid. A bloody joke.

      Jo - 2011-03-10 10:44

      Agree with you Jay Jay - and Helen's biggest protection is to never have anything compromising to say, in person or on the phone. Imagine how tired the people who have to find something awful on her tapes must get. And, more importantly, for everyone who says "the DA is also corrupt" - if they were, then 3 years of phone-tapping would have delivered some evidence by now, right? Imagine if someone was tapping everyone else's lines.....

      Nice Guy - 2011-03-10 12:12

      I have to protest the level of invasion of privasy. The NIA have resorted to bugging entire houses now. They have bugged my house. The other day i heard a funny noise from my phone and picked it up. They were replaying a scene of me on the loo. They can't deny it. I can recognise that proud and loud ripper from a mile away. Please people - give me more privacy

      Arno - 2011-03-10 13:05

      @Jayjay001 - the unfortunate truth is that until the completely IGNORANT MASSES start thinking for themselves, nothing will change. It's unfortunately an African mentality (not racially intended), I have the loudest voice/biggest gun/most violent temperment, you must obey me. So what happens, the masswes just follow like sheeps to the slaughter. THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH OUR COUNTRY

      Spyker May - 2011-03-10 15:12

      Jayjay.., I hear you, but re "many fellow Black South Africans are SICK of this Corrupt, Cronyist ANC" - I am not convinced bro. Just look at the general trend of comments on sowetanlive.com (eg re Tutu's speach) and you may revise your conviction...

      BlackSwan - 2011-03-10 17:37

      Argh please! Zille is no threat to the ANC, why would they do that! Wake up

      Peter Merrington - 2011-03-10 19:48

      Chaps - they intend to nationalise intelligence. They're probably trying to twist Intellectual Property legislation.

      steve - 2011-03-10 19:48

      BlackSwan - who controls the WCape, Cape Town, the no1 tourist destination in Africa?

      Jayjay001 - 2011-03-10 19:54

      To answer all, I think we pale skinned South Africans need to get uot of our security compounds and go to the townships. They WON'T kill you, in fact township tours is quite the business for locals. The reality why so many Black people reluctantly vote ANC (in spite of the SEVERE ISSUES) is that the ANC have actually done some good. They've built houses for people who were squatters, and also set up a social welfare system. something the DA would NOT be very keen on doing. Social welfare happens around the globe in first world countries, it ensures the poorest with no jobs have food and don't have to resort to desperate measures to feed themselves and their families. So hate me for saying that, it's when you see that the DA needs to hold our nation's poorest interests at heart (ie. our fellow Black South Africans) that change happens. Every WHITEY should read our Constitution speaking in clear English of equality for all and get lawyers to sue the f#c% outta any ANC racistds as they jibe thewir fellow citizens. Our country's saving grace is in our constitution, Racist Whiteys who don't wanna read the document written by our fellow South Africans will only keep sinking further into the sh't. Read it, and wake up and smell the roses. South Africa is for ALL, NOT just one sector as the ANC is making out. Once you know the constitution you will know the way out of this racist mess we're in. Any Lawyers, get active in ending this racism in SA once and for all.

      exocist - 2011-03-10 20:54

      don't worry HELLEN it just proves you are a very important woman in SA.they must be scared of you to tap your phones, keep up the good work, all honest and decent citizens are behind you 110% you go girl show those useless men what for VIVA DA.

      Maddy-CT - 2011-03-10 21:27

      @Jayjay001. Actually it was the DA who mooted a Basic Income Grant for the poor, and they will bring it in should they come to power.

  • KarinWalker - 2011-03-09 23:01

    This sort of thing would bring down a president/government in a civilized country like the USA or UK, ( see Watergate) but not in this country. The NIA / ANC will LIE LIE LIE and DENY DENY DENY..who else wouls have access to bugging equipment? Who else could ORDER records of phone calls from a service provider? how low can the ANC stoop. This is disgusting!

      Luyanda - 2011-03-10 07:25

      This is not even worth a respone. It has really found refuge in lunacy, idiocy and imbecility.

      phillip.havenga - 2011-03-10 07:40

      Unfortunately in South Africa the ANC has become the law and answer to no one. Leaving them free to do whatever they want.

      green_goblin - 2011-03-10 07:48

      @luyanda.. "this is not worth a response" you just responded bud and must say that your comment was not worth the response.. no meaning, no point does not even highlight what you are talking about. Maybe you were just testing some words you read in a dictionary recently?

      JohnnyWotten - 2011-03-10 08:00

      @green_goblin, you just responded to his response that supposedly wasn't worth a response. Wow, this is so meta. So, Karin, what would it take to bring down a civilized government (and I presume you use the word civilized to mean "white")? Being guilty of human rights abuses and torture? No, didn't do it for the US. The president having affairs? No, didn't do it for France. The government disposing foreign leaders on behalf of big corporations? Didn't do it for England. Politics is politics, Karin, and it's all dirty. There is no "civilized" world.

      Skande - 2011-03-10 08:11

      @JohnnyWotten USA has a black President you idiot, stop putting words into other peoples mouths by "assuming" shit. How many people in parliament have resigned due to stuff like this in other countries, 100% more than in SA

      william.nettmann - 2011-03-10 08:27

      Karin, don't be silly. You only know about Watergate because somebody made a mistake, and it came out into the open. Politics have been conducted by subterfuge, espionage and lies for thousands of years, all over the world, and if anything, the more "civilised" governments are just better at covering it up. Let's spend more energy on being part of the solution for South Africa by focusing on the positives and working towards true reconciliation, and let the USA and the UK look after themselves.

      Mike - 2011-03-10 09:28

      @Luyanda - you speak for yourself then? Not?

      Rajty - 2011-03-10 09:48

      Civilised country- be careful what you brand civilised- if you mean covert international tactics to subvert governments and invade countries for resources, then the US and UK are very civilised....

      Spyker May - 2011-03-10 15:35

      JohnnyWotten, There is a defining matter that you- and those who argue alike miss by a million miles. Firstly consider this – SA is the country with the highest disparity between private tax payers (not a tax-payer in service of the state does not pay bona-fide tax – it is state funds visiting another bank account for a while – at a cost to the private tax-payer, needless to say) not represented at government level. In simple terms – you pay for a government that does not represent you. Indeed corruption-, dirty politics, crime, etc, etc is universal. What is not universal though is its effect on the quality of life of the citizens of the country. The GDP/capita of the USA is almost 5 x (not 5%, not 50%, 5 TIMES) higher than that of SA. While SA is rated as one of the richest country measured by minerals resources (certainly the richest per capita), it is rated 65th out of 79 countries on mineral potential (“Absurd” is the only apt note). In real terms the SAcan GDP, in 1980, was app 10% higher than today – BUT, the population was almost 60% of what it is today. Despite its grossly misleading propaganda – SAcans (of all races) are poorer today, than at the height of Apartheid – this is the inconvenient truth. The effect of ‘POLITICS’ on SA has therefore been wholly devastating in SA. Conversely, the effect on places like USA, France, UK (although I loathe comparisons with UK – its an artificial state) has essentially been prosaic.

  • LDP - 2011-03-09 23:09

    Wow, hats off to Helen Zille continuing in her struggles...I would run for the hills if I found out that I was being 'monitored'. Not on.

      Worldwise - 2011-03-10 10:41

      When I was involved with a legal dispute with a state department the same happened to me, my line was monitored. The operative was obviously junior as he started the tapes and then either fell asleep, left the room or went to the toilet. The result was that the phone would not disconnect for a long time when I finished the call. Every time I picked it up it was still connected until dozy realised the call was over and he better hang up. It ended when I purposely told my advocate that our calls were being monitored while they were busy monitoring. Thats what happens when you appoint people who want jobs into careers.

      Snoopy88 - 2011-03-10 14:29

      Helen Zille makes Chuck Norris look like a sissy! But I have no illusions about the timing of this new report, she is a politician after all. What I do know almost first hand is that she is a person of integrity. A friend of mine was killed by a drunk driver in Cape Town and they had bungled the case so that two years after he still hadn't been charged. We got Helen's private email address and she actually responded. Said she'd get the new Safety and Security MEC involved and a few days later he called! Another friend teaches at a school where Zille came to do a speech. She arrived driving herself in a Toyota Tazz! No entourage except for two massive big black guys who were her bodyguards. Helen is increasingly becoming well known in places like Delft and the informal settlements for someone who listens and helps in whatever way she can. She's not a coldhearted politician who just kisses babies when the camera is flashing. I think she really believes she can make a difference in the lives of everyone in South Africa. Pity she isn't black. The fact that she's fluent in isiXhosa does help a great deal though.

      Maddy-CT - 2011-03-10 21:34

      @ Snoopy88. I think that is why her support is growing in places such as Guguletu. They can see past the propaganda to the 'real' Helen Zille.

  • mlh@24.com - 2011-03-09 23:10

    And so the A N Comedy continues![after all, the 'NIA' IS a government dept]. Hilarious....[and worrying if this is the best an 'intelligence' dept can do....].

  • Colin Dovey - 2011-03-09 23:10

    Public Protector investigated.......Cele innocent?......very murky goings on.....leaves even the evil doings of the apartheid days looking good (at least that is the way it seems to be heading, very quickly)

      Zeus - 2011-03-09 23:29

      ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

      phillip.havenga - 2011-03-10 07:41

      Zeus keyboard get stuck?

      Logs01 - 2011-03-10 08:01

      No @phillip.havenga, his finger got stuck in the keyboard, trying to type "Zeus" again

      happygolucky - 2011-03-10 15:18

      thats the first ive ever seen someone stutter when they sleep

  • POLLENYS - 2011-03-09 23:11

    Nothing is above the ANC. Weaponsgate, Zuma783gate, Shaikgate, Selibigate, Celegate etc.etc. OK, face it: the Nats also tapped phones, but they could at least say there was a terrorist campaign directed at the state. Which there was. The DA's campaign is about clean and proper government, which is way beyond the reach of the ANC.

      Big Mouth - 2011-03-10 07:32

      Thats about all that needs to be said.

  • Sizwe - 2011-03-09 23:14

    This is the biggest load of BS I have ever heard, go tell this to pre-schoolers, please do not insult our intelligence. Your husband heard a phone recording of you in the past, and that clearly points to the NIA? "If" it were true hypothetically speaking, you still have no grounds for asserting it was any state agency at all. It could have been Gaddaffi, hell even Bush for that matter, please you are embarassing yourself. The police or any agency tasked with interception of information cannot get information from your service provider without a court order. Even if the order was from the Commission which was headed by a Judge such order would have been valid Ex Lege as the commission is granted such powers by legislation. The high court ruling pertained to the motive of setting up the commission and not the conduct of the commission itself thus any order granted therein would have been valid in law. But simply put all we know is that "your spouse" apparently heard a recording by an unknown person or group of people, your service provider had an "order" to give out such information and a commission of enquiry of which you were a part of "might" have granted such an order. The simple conclusion BS. Try again 2014...

      POLLENYS - 2011-03-09 23:24

      Quite frankly I believe nothing coming from the ANC and its agencies, and I put nothing above them. I hope you live long enough the experience the damage they are doing to everything - roads, water, armed forces, education, environment etc. first hand. And then you will no doubt blame apartheid.

      GrimReaper10 - 2011-03-09 23:27

      lol at @Sizwe! Why not? Why is it BS? You can shower to get rid of aids? Do the police lose more guns than the public? Is anomalies every parastatal? Im sure everything is just fine. Other wise its anti-revolutionary.

      nato323 - 2011-03-09 23:28

      Well, if he heard a conversation made by herself played back over the phone, that would be the first thing anyone would assume. Who's most likely to bash Zille? Those against Zille and the DA. Who is most likely to have the capability to phone tap or give the order to? Some intelligence agency within the country. You're right that it could have come from higher up, such as the US government or from allies of the ANC, but most assumptions would point to the NIA that carried out the actual order within South Africa.

      phillie - 2011-03-10 01:06

      Sounds as if you are privy to the workings of these tapping court orders.Then you must surely also know that the NIA (or any of the agencies/forces allowed to tap) need not make the granting thereof public, it is filed and if the target/victim raises hell if NIA etc is found out they produce it to validate their nefarious doings. So methinks the person talking the BS is non other than a person called Sizwe and as YorkHunt so aptly states you are either filled with political hate ,or you are a racist with political blinkers

      bluesoul909 - 2011-03-10 05:17

      well no fine...what do you actually call this condition you have ?

      Simon - 2011-03-10 06:21

      While Sizwe says a lot in his comment, he does make a good point: there is no proof (yet?) that it is the government or ANC behind it. Getting equipment to tap phones can't be that hard (newspapers in other countries get them). There is no proof that it is government - there are a lot of parties (not just political) interested in the running of Cape Town - it could be any of them. Of course it is possible that it is government. But it is also possible that it is not.

      RepCT - 2011-03-10 06:52

      Sizwe, How can you still support the ANC after all the corruption and the defrauding of the South African people. I cant wait for revolution in South Africa, when the people have had enough and stand up against the ANC tyrants. I just hope it comes soon.

      clifford.pike1 - 2011-03-10 06:58

      read Animal Farm, Sizwe. See if any of it rings a bell. You remind me of the deluded NP supporters back in the 1980s. You can't see what's really going on, just deny, deny, deny.

      Alfred - 2011-03-10 07:09

      Yeah Sizwe, I'm with you on that, it was definitely Gaddaffi and Bush.

      Ozymandios - 2011-03-10 07:21

      @cliford.pike. So true mate, so true. I just think Sizwe wants to be Napoleon now and can't stand Zuma holding that mantle. Maybe Sizwe is an N(I)A dude since he knows so much and it is his job at N(I)A to scan these pages see what is being written by us and then report back. The (I) bit is as Hans Erik Iken says "Inteligence" does not exist in that aspect. Like Military "Inteligence" Jawell no fine. Also like the statement "Politically Correct". When is anything in this country that is politically connected "Correct". Just listen to Sizwe rambling on and you'll see what is meant by that .

      Big Mouth - 2011-03-10 07:33

      Oh sizwe, sizwe, sizwe..... what about when they monitored zuma. please dont believe in the system, because there is no system. they are all rouge.

      Siener2 - 2011-03-10 08:05

      Sizwe you use *legalese* words that you are unfortunately not familiar with. Who except the NIA has the *right* (strictly speaking 100% against the Constitution, but hey, which Cadre actually gives a hoot about small irrelevant things like freedom of expression and the right to privacy?) and the technical capability to monitor ALL voice traffic in SA? NO court order is needed. See sections 16 to 25 of the RICA Act 70 of 2002, promulgaterd by THE ANC GOVERNMENT on 22 January 2003 in Government Gazette 24286. So one of two things occurred: 1. A crime was committed against Ms Zille (and of course no suspects will ever be found) or 2. the NIA *legally* monitored her calls. Tell us which one you think it was, Sizwe you rocket scientist?

      BigD - 2011-03-10 08:12

      you bloody agent

      Totman - 2011-03-10 08:21

      Give me your numbers and I will show you!!!!!

      Mike - 2011-03-10 09:04

      Sizwe does not have the balls to come up with answers to any of the comments and requets levelled against him - typical ANC lacky! Bloody agent!

      Joe Bloggs - 2011-03-10 09:10

      My father wrote a book called "Stepping Stones". He did a lot of research revolving around what he calls "African Kleptocracy" and in that research it has come to light that after an African country becomes truly "democratic" or in our case "kleptocratic" it only survives for an average of 20 years before the youth rise up in revolt. The ANC have now been in power for 17 years. The time is coming!! Stepping Stones is available from www.crink.co.za and all proceeds go to charity.

      methinks2 - 2011-03-10 09:12

      Tapping phones is a serious breach of freedom. Helen Zille should not take this lying down, she should cancel her contract with her service provider, sue her service provider and find out to whom her records were released to and for what purposes. This speculation she creates by not following this procedure is typical of politician. Kasrils denied any wrongdoing on the part of the state, and he is a much more honourable figure. This is the fear I have if the DA ever gets into power: All talk and no delivery.

      MathysTheart - 2011-03-10 09:20

      What possible motives could the USA have to tap her phone. The ANC on the other hand...

      Rajty - 2011-03-10 09:58

      This is a reply to Pollenys - yes it must be the government and the government alone who are destroying the country- the whits owned mines and construction companiies have nothing to do with it, nor do those great food companies...or the rest of corporate SA for that matter- and that is hardly government is it....the roads are damaged because the govenment don't maintain them right- and those trucking companies who regularly overload their vehicles have nothing to do with it....and don't cite paying taxes as some sort of cleaner that washes away those indiscretions....the water is polluted beciuase government blah blah....but the mines don't play any role...nor the farmers....go look in a mirror and take responsibility for a change.

      Mr Hobbit - 2011-03-10 10:32

      If you believe that, Sizwe, you will also find that Shabir is not really feeling very well this morning. He has a really bad headache. And, Cele is an honest upright citizen, working hard to combat crime. And, the ANC has the interests of the poorest of the poor at heart, and so on.

      George - 2011-03-10 11:54

      you are so brain washed - care of Jacob and his idiots

      Fanie - 2011-03-10 12:31

      @Sizwe...you are spot on. There is a medical name given to people who keep hearing voices of their own...it starts with S and ends with A.

      Bheki - 2011-03-10 12:45

      Sizwe maybe what you are saying is true but why will foreign intelligence spy on our citizen without our inteligence sector knowing. That will mean that ours is not competent. Aparrently Zille did ask whether she was under surveillance and no reply was ever received from our NIA. I think whenever we want to defend something that is wrong we should apply ourselves-Who knew that Ngcuka,MCcathy and others were under surveillance?

      BernieK - 2011-03-10 13:34

      No, not BS, this government is abusing it's powers. As one of the other members mentioned - read ANIMAL FARM, then you'll understand what is going on. Very important for YOU to understand that. Then you'll be running for the hills Sizwe, because your ANC friends will become your biggest enemies in the end, but that is for you to discover. You should read up on history and you should distance yourselves from the pigs in the ANC camp.......

      Educated - 2011-03-10 13:36

      "please do not insult our intelligence" - he he he

      WhoGivesAshi - 2011-03-10 13:45

      Sizwe clearly you work for NIA. I have worked with you guys in the past and I must say you are some of the most idiotic arrogant uninformed people I have ever met.

      Snoopy88 - 2011-03-10 13:49

      You see Sizwe, Zille actually has integrity. Unlike your ANC buddies she doesn't have even a sniff of corruption about her. So why shouldn't we believe her? As for proof, I'd like to know who the service provider was? Surely they would have gotten 'the order' on paper from those able to do this legally, i.e. NIA before carrying handing over details of her calls? Lots more about this is going to come out... Just you wait and see.

      Spyker May - 2011-03-10 15:39

      Sizwe, DENIAL is not da river in Egypt...

      WhiteEagle - 2011-03-10 17:03

      Sizwe, you idiotic moron

      ray.romans - 2011-03-11 05:24

      You're right Sizwe, it must have been Julian Assange.

  • Rapelwana - 2011-03-09 23:15

    Talk about tryin to score political points.....first it ws manuel apperently 'playing hero' nw this,hellen realy suffers from illusions,pure lies!

      POLLENYS - 2011-03-09 23:30

      Actually it's senseless debating with fools: They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with their experience.

      GrimReaper10 - 2011-03-09 23:33

      You mean like the whole toilet thing in Cape Town? Also result of ANC policy ,while there is constant service delivery protest in other provinces? I just see politics. So quick to shoot Manual. No honer with revolutionaries it seems.

      thomas.t@mweb.co.Tom - 2011-03-10 05:58

      Everthing is a lie if you are a ANC member.

      clifford.pike1 - 2011-03-10 07:04

      You wouldn't want to say a bad word about Chiefs / Pirates / Sundowns or whichever PSL team you support. Admitting that the ANC is ever at fault would therefore be tantamount to blasphemy. Or have I got you all wrong?

      MasterMind - 2011-03-10 08:46

      Gotta love the way this imbecile debates from a point of strength when his name starts with Rape !!!! bwaaaa haaaaa haaaa

      Mike - 2011-03-10 09:02

      Go take a running jump at yourself you wanker!

      Chuck Mail - 2011-03-10 09:19

      of course Rapelwana, you are well informied on the case

      Kenno - 2011-03-10 11:27

      Your spelling says it all!!! Lets talk about: Jackie Selebi,Bheki Cele, Shabir Sheik,Cheryl Cwele, Winnie Mandela etc etc...You and the ANC leaders you worship! What have they done for you, except destrop this country

      Frox - 2011-03-10 12:32

      Wow Rape, you quite a diehard ANC supporter - must have been the chicken and t-shirt. Seems that even the abused and neglegted dog will keep following it's owner. Enjoy voting yes to fat cats taking your hard earned money and spending it on self indulgent luxuries while 40% of South Africa lives in poverty. Do you really believe they will throw you a bone? all they want is your vote every 2 years and they lie to your face te get it without ever having a plan to deliver. Don't be a mindless dog that just follows it's owner in the hope of receiving some scraps one day.

      Spyker May - 2011-03-10 15:41

      Yawn...

      phillip.havenga - 2011-03-10 16:54

      But Rapelwana is correct! Everything the ANC says is a lie!

  • JohannV - 2011-03-09 23:26

    Richard Nixon also lied and denied for two years about Watergate until her had to resign in 1974. Watch this space...

      Sedick - 2011-03-10 00:27

      An ANC liar having to resign for being corrupt, a liar, womaniser, rapist, serial adulterer, drug dealer.......LOL.....not in my lifetime.....

  • bafana malaza - 2011-03-09 23:28

    it is amazing how stale stories seem to make their way back to the headlines all over again.This alleged incident happened over three years ago and Hellen Zille only conveniently chooses to recycle it now!! Oops I nearly forgot its election time! How dare I?

      YorkHunt - 2011-03-09 23:47

      It's also amazing how Malema no longer just mentions that mines should be nationalised, but the fact that he wants a very specific percentage (60%) of one of the largest mining companies in the country (Anglo) across all their mining spectrums (Gold, Platinum, etc) for "his people"... Oh yes, it's almost election time.. How dare i!

      immattmac - 2011-03-09 23:49

      Haha,this is true! Still if there is any truth at all to these sort of stories it would be nice and civilised if someone were to lose their job at the very least.

      Emen - 2011-03-09 23:55

      You mean like election promises first made 17 years ago are being recycled every 5 years.....? Oops I forgot, it's election time....

      YorkHunt - 2011-03-10 00:02

      @Emen - well, they need to recycle those electioneering promises they first made 17 years ago 'cos they haven't delievered on them yet. And, those are the promises that got them the vote, so they might as well keep on strumming that guitar.

      Point Blank - 2011-03-10 09:40

      Yup bafana, like the ANC rallies last month where they promised jobs, houses, free medical. a better life..... again.

      CharlSkeptic - 2011-03-10 09:52

      I also seem to have read somewhere in the article that its been 3 years waiting for a letter to confirm that her calls are not tapped, without success. Um, how difficult can it be to send such a letter, unless you dont want to caught AGAIN and having paperwork against you.. Anyway, thats just me and my common sense..Oops I nearly forgot its election time! How dare I?

      Pharo - 2011-03-10 12:54

      @bafana Helen was interviewed on Cape Talk radio yesterday morning. This issue has come to light again because of a question raised in Provincial Council this week by Lynne Brown (ANC). She wanted to know whether their emails were being monitored. Helen said she would check with the N(I)A, as she was still waiting for a response to her previous suspicion of the phone tapping saga. She also mentioned that she has a written statement from a female police officer who had been given orders to monitor and transcribe Helen's phone calls over a 2 year period. None of which appears in this article.

  • Stufflé - 2011-03-10 00:18

    If this is true, it is extremely funny. The new SAcans can't even operate da very difficult masjien. Eish

  • urbanice - 2011-03-10 01:43

    oops! 4giv mi der intellectuals miyn waz nt 2 step on those big shoez my apologiez?

      bar-one - 2011-03-10 08:27

      It must be very difficult to keep supporting a party that shields corruption , drug trafficking , wanted criminals ,power abusers, sex offenders etc , and that is slowly but surely bringing this country to its knees. How can anyone consider you level headed and unbiased or even posessing any form of basic human locic ?

      Realist - 2011-03-10 10:06

      Wow, is this an attempt at sarcasm? I think its fair to say that you are in over your head here. Lack if Intelligence in this case is alarming!Lack of facts even more! And this is is the steorotype we see as an ANC supporter, then the sterotype must be true!

  • Slapper - 2011-03-10 04:05

    Welcome to South Africa. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

  • William - 2011-03-10 04:37

    HELEN,IT GREEVES ME TO THINK THAT THIS SORT OF UNDERHANDEDNESS IS GOING ON. YOU ARE OUR PREMIER AND WE LOVE AND LOOK UP TO YOU. WILLIAM OF CAP TOWN. ( PENSIONER )

      Jeremy - 2011-03-10 08:00

      Luyanda, you must be very lonely. Theres not much room in that pointed head of yours. You photo says it all.

      wilbureddings - 2011-03-10 08:25

      @luyanda The inability to respect an elder is a sign that your mind never started working. idiot.

      MasterMind - 2011-03-10 08:52

      Luyanda absent of frontal lobes (hence pointer head, just like JZ SH 783) - scientific study shows this proves absence of logical thought processes !!!! Comment above says it all - OBE much and peace out, I rest my case - the gorilla also has missing frontal lobes, go figure !!!

      Mike - 2011-03-10 09:00

      @Luyanda - and your's belongs in the lunatic asylum I rest my case!

  • bluesoul909 - 2011-03-10 04:55

    A sign of intellect is the ability to debate without emotion or slander but rather with reason and truth....so far there has been little intellectual debate in these comments; rather just the same non sense we accuse the very people we are debating...

      Wedfew - 2011-03-10 06:14

      Why the hell are you naked dude ... This is News24???

      Alan - 2011-03-10 06:53

      It ain't even him Wedfew. Internet Pic.

      Melly30 - 2011-03-10 13:21

      He is hot leave him!!!

      Snoopy88 - 2011-03-10 13:56

      ha ha ha

      chriscpt15 - 2011-03-10 15:21

      CLASSIC!!!! LOL

      exocist - 2011-03-10 21:15

      HEY SEX MACHINE is there any truth in your photo or are you also bullshitting us, or is it a photo of you in your heyday if you want truths go to church if you want emotion and laughs you've come to the right place

      Melly30 - 2011-03-11 09:56

      bluesoul909 - Grrr

  • Kevin Rack - 2011-03-10 05:08

    Apartheid 2 Cadres are fast becoming like their hated enemy. We get rid of foul right wingers to be replaced by even fouler left wing bush carzy cadres who still think its 1970's dictatorial politics based on milatant structures.

  • bafana.skosana - 2011-03-10 05:42

    Get life Zille, my conversation are also monitored, nxi

      MasterMind - 2011-03-10 08:53

      ja by your wife cos you can't keep it in your pants when you drunk from the shebeen !!!

      Mike - 2011-03-10 08:58

      Why don't you curl up and die! Bloody ANC agent!

      Realist - 2011-03-10 10:09

      You mean to say and I quote, "Get A Life Zille, my conversations ARE also monitored,..". Thats the way, now go learn your grammar and ABC and then go back to school to study, and then when you are strong in the basics, you can come back and debate with the adults!

      Realist - 2011-03-10 10:16

      You mean to say and I quote, "Get A Life Zille, my conversations ARE also monitored,..". Thats the way, now go learn your grammar and ABC and then go back to school to study, and then when you are strong in the basics, you can come back and debate with the adults! But then again Zille already has a life, a life worth more than any of your ANC leaders have achieved. She fought for freedom as an apartheid activist, she won the City of Cape Town, she was Awarded Best Mayor worldwide, she runs a functional city with integrity, now, that it is a life worth living! A true heroine....see bafana, thats how you debate!

      Realist - 2011-03-10 10:19

      You mean to say and I quote, "Get A Life Zille, my conversations ARE also monitored,..". Thats the way, now go learn your grammar and ABC and then go back to school to study, and then when you are strong in the basics, you can come back and debate with the adults! But then again Zille already has a life, a life worth more than any of your ANC leaders have achieved. She fought for freedom as an apartheid activist, she won the City of Cape Town, she was Awarded Best Mayor worldwide, she run a functional city with integrity, now, that it is a life worth living!

      chriscpt15 - 2011-03-10 15:25

      my "conversation" are also monitored. well done Caster, well done. lol

  • Sword&Cross - 2011-03-10 06:09

    Outrageous and childish - points towards the racist ANCYL continuing their puerile antics in order to domineer.

  • anti crime - 2011-03-10 06:34

    Tapping a line is one thing,screwing up so the victim hears it on the other end is just plain stupidity....wonder where the bloody agents got their training lol,maybe an ex line man from Telkom....hahahahahaaaa u guys are just incompetent....it's a joke man.

      63Starlight - 2011-03-10 08:54

      Me thinks they watched the Pink Panther movies. ;-)

  • Straight Forward - 2011-03-10 06:35

    National Intelligence Ageny, a ccontradiction in terms.

      MasterMind - 2011-03-10 08:55

      OXYMORON - but then OBE much children would not know what that is, cos they not be having to studdee the grammah cos SH 783 sez eet ees not impourtunt...

  • steven.m.armour - 2011-03-10 06:37

    This country is a circus.

  • clifford.pike1 - 2011-03-10 06:48

    double-o-eish! The name's Doos, Stupid Doos.

  • rurapente - 2011-03-10 06:53

    They havent used tapes for what, 10 years now??

      advurt - 2011-03-10 07:01

      Actually - magnetic tape is STILL the best long-term storage medium and still being used by any service or institute wishing to keep records for a very long time.

      Sme - 2011-03-10 07:12

      hahahaha probably imported from Uncle Bob in Zim!!!! They be having it!!!

      Mike - 2011-03-10 08:57

      I still use reel to reel - what has age got to do with it? The fact of the matter is that they are taping the oppositions line - that is the crux of the matter - not what method they are using!

      Worldwise - 2011-03-10 10:44

      Technically, magnetic tape is the best to use for recordings. Analysis is much easier. Why do you think aircraft black boxes still use this medium?

      The Patriot - 2011-03-10 12:35

      Budget restraints?

  • jiamalunga - 2011-03-10 07:07

    And all of you went and had your Phones Rica'd. Now the state can track your movements and if so wish listen in to what you said over that device. All of this to stop a possible Libya in the future! My phone is stil not Rica'd they can go to hell!

      Snoopy88 - 2011-03-10 14:01

      they can listen all they want. I'll even do some heavy breathing for them. I just want them to use Rica to catch more criminals!

      chriscpt15 - 2011-03-10 15:35

      Paranoid much jiamalunga?

  • Alwyn - 2011-03-10 07:08

    And the ANC cracks become wider and wider by the day,now resorting to Mugabe style tactics

  • Luyanda - 2011-03-10 07:10

    Is this medieval times or what? Can't we be futuristic because there is so much we can tell about the past which can make life complicated for us today.

  • Welleducated - 2011-03-10 07:11

    It is not the NIA, it is the ANC using their own (our money) to monitor everyone who is a threat to their racists organisation. The ANC is a racist organisation, who wan tot cling onto power to make money for themselves, this is the story.

  • Brieuse - 2011-03-10 07:22

    lol at using tapes, can't even get that right.

  • Chanelle Greef - 2011-03-10 07:23

    Has anyone else noticed that, even though they've been monitoring her phones for three years or more, they haven't found anything they could use to bring her down yet? Silly of the DA not to realise that they have something they could use here. How much more proof do you need that she consistently sticks to the rules?

      The Patriot - 2011-03-10 12:37

      how about a clean audit report? The mind boggles.

      Snoopy88 - 2011-03-10 14:03

      I thought the WC gets those any way?

      Chanelle Greef - 2011-03-10 15:57

      @The Patriot - yes, they have certainly advertised their clean audit report, and rightfully so! So why don't they advertise that three years' surveillance didn't deliver a single scandal? Damn, that's pretty impressive! I wonder how many leaders of political parties all over the world could accomplish that?

  • Dan - 2011-03-10 07:30

    The ANC is showing us every day just how sick they are. A real mafia and race sick organization.Racism is ten time worse now than during apartheid.

      Mike - 2011-03-10 08:54

      Racism? ask an immegrant how long it takes to become a racist - the average is 3 days!

      Worldwise - 2011-03-10 10:46

      The difference between a tourist and a racist? - Two days in Johannesburg.

  • Wow! - 2011-03-10 07:35

    This government is absolutely corrupt. It is rotten to the core. I have NO DOUBTS that Helen Zilla is correct.

  • Minnie - 2011-03-10 07:37

    Helen Zille, DA means Democratic Alliance and not District Attorney.

  • Minnie - 2011-03-10 07:38

    Helen Zille, DA means Democratic Alliance and not District Attorney

      Mike - 2011-03-10 08:52

      Wow!

      Snoopy88 - 2011-03-10 14:05

      Minnie you're going to need a District Attorney when I'm finished slapping you!

      chriscpt15 - 2011-03-10 15:42

      Ai Minnie, as useless as nipples on a turtle.

      Chanelle Greef - 2011-03-10 15:57

      And your point is?

  • rog - 2011-03-10 07:42

    Why only reporting this now,close to election time?You dnt need to do it Zille,or whoever decided to print this story.politactics.

  • Ruben Rubenstein - 2011-03-10 07:46

    There is software available, which the DA can install on their cellphone handsets to encypt the calls and SMS messages. If Helen has all her party reps install this software on their phones, nobody can intercept the calls. Simple and easy.

      Xavier - 2011-03-10 09:53

      @Ruben, Zille and the rest of the DA are too stupid to do this, they need a guide dog just to show them where they live and where their room is.

      Realist - 2011-03-10 10:30

      Xavier, is this why the City of Cape Town received an unqualified audit? Because they were stupid? Then I suppose being awarded Best Mayor by the International commnity was also awarded by a bunch of Stupids? The only morons I see are the likes of you and your ilk, who show no skin off their face when they openly declare their stupidity. Shame on you, remove that plank from your eye, before judging the splinter in someone elses, especially someone that has done way more for the inequalities of apartheid than you! Could not have achieved what she has by being stupid now could she?

      LogicBomb - 2011-03-10 12:30

      @xavier gee another legend in his own lunchtime. Troll much? Yours is a face truly unclouded by thought. Epic fail!

      Xavier - 2011-03-10 13:26

      @logicbomb, it doesn't help anyone when you describe yourself here. the only epic fail which ever happened was when you were born.

      Realist - 2011-03-10 13:38

      Wow Xavier, Helen Zille was a mamber of the Black Sash. She was arrested for exposing the truth hehind the Steve Biko murder. So you do did something better than that? You were arrested for foghting for someone elses freedom. You sound like a person woth sour grapes, and I am definately do not behave like a child, cannot afford to when I have a business that employs a substantial number of employees and turnover close to R20 mill a year......haaaa haaaaa. I can move ahead, because I can SEE clearly. I have no splinters nor planks in my eyes dude!

      Snoopy88 - 2011-03-10 14:07

      They haven't bothered spending taxpayers money on this stuff because they don't need it. They have nothing to hide and they're showing the ANC up just by doing their jobs!

      clifford.pike1 - 2011-03-10 14:22

      Don't look now, Xavier - your intellect is showing. Check your facts, spelling and overall message before clicking on the "Post Comment" button.

      Chanelle Greef - 2011-03-10 15:59

      Sure they can, but they don't need to. They have nothing to hide.

  • RNP - 2011-03-10 07:49

    Shame, the ANC government really is worried about Zille. Well done girl! Even tapping your phone? Gosh they are desperate. I sure wish as a white south african woman that they leave the Western Cape alone and rather focus on the very desperate situation here in the Transkei, a very neglected area of the Eastern Cape. All the focus on Helen Zille and her well run area and absolutely no attention given to the mess going on here! It is all about power and money at the end of the day!

      Xavier - 2011-03-10 09:58

      lol @RNP, you are right, "It is all about power and money at the end of the day!". what do you think Zille is after, money and power. She doesn't care about you, so is all the other political parties, ANC included. They are only there for their own gain. HAHAHAH, do you really think Zille is running the cape well...dude, please wake up, the cape is worst off than when it was run by the ANC. it's going backwards, I asume you were newver in the cape by your idiotic comments.

      Realist - 2011-03-10 10:34

      Xavier, we live in Gauteng, but have a business in CT. No problems there, however I will not even go into the issues (power cuts) in JHB. All you saw was one line, the line about power, money and greed, but chose to ignore the rest of the statement. You must be living a blissfully ignorant life, and if you feel that the city of CT is going backwards, then you are obviously in reverse in your own life!

      Xavier - 2011-03-10 11:34

      @realist, you should change your name, you are so not a realist. I go to cape town once a year, now for me it is much easier to see the way Cape town is going backwards as for someone who almost lives there. it's the same of south africans that lives abroad and comes and visit in south africa an d show you stuff everywhere including cape town of how things went backwards from the last time they visit. the changes is small, and as you spend a lot of time their you don't notice it, but take a year of before you go to cape town again then we can talk again and I promise you you will agree with me. further, I live in jhb and haven't experience any power outages yet, I know off people who did, but when it come to me, I have been lucky, haven't experience it at work or at my home, not even during the time of load shedding. I assume you work and stay in the crappy dodgy areas of jhb then.O, and no my work doesn't have a backup generator. I can give you a list of companies and people living in cape town with a lot of problems regarding service delivery, power outages etc etc. nope have not seen just the one line, the writer may have wrote it as sarcasm, I took it not as sarcasm. as you seem to be an owner of a business in SA then I already know that you are going backwards, and have no sense of service delivery or how to manage the people working for you. thus you can't talk, as you are the blissfully ignorant one, not me. please grow up, you are a disgrace.

      The Patriot - 2011-03-10 12:45

      @Xavier, "you go to Cape Town once a year, you almost live there". That sums up your agrument.

      Xavier - 2011-03-10 13:23

      @patriot, please don't come here and be idiotic like the DA or the imbecile Helen zille.

      The Patriot - 2011-03-10 13:40

      @Zavier ,My apologies, I just referred to your simple comments and assumed that is the level of your argument. Incapable of rationalization, intellectual debate or the inability to refrain from insults due to the lack of reasonable understanding. My mistake, thought you were for real, sadly jsut a wind bag.

      Realist - 2011-03-10 13:47

      Xavier, we are in CT once a month, own three PAID UP properties. Our offices were broken into for the 4th time in JHB, in between all the issues we have with the council etc etc, I dont know what you do, but I live in an upmarket area of JHB, my business turns over more than 20 mill a year, I have 2 children in a TOP PRIVATE school and I am well educated, so my point of refence is what I experience. I can be non judgemental, because I am not white and can be totally neutral. One needs to be operating in the business environment in SA at the moment to be able to comment on just how difficult and chllenging it is to operate in this politically turbulent times. So unfortunately for you, you dont seem to understand the basics of running a business and the costs associated with power outages, telephone cables being stolen, etc things we have to manage almost on a daily basis. We definately do not have those issues in CT! Not even with billing!! It seems that you would rather insult, however I believe that you are not in my league, or that of the other INTELLIGENT commentators on this forum! PS What makes you think that I have not met HZ??

  • Renee - 2011-03-10 07:52

    Is this from a Jim Carrey movie? Love it!

      Xavier - 2011-03-10 10:04

      I think you're right, It sounds like a Jim Carrey movie

  • WiseOwl2 - 2011-03-10 07:54

    The ANC are not a credible organization every instance denial is the reply, denial is a culture within this organization.

      MathysTheart - 2011-03-10 09:29

      What did you expect from a previous terrorist organisation.

  • Cynically Jaded - 2011-03-10 08:00

    I'm just amused at the fact that the National Idiots Agency is still using tape recorders!!! Someone give them a gift voucher to buy a digital bloody recorder! Honestly! :)

      Xavier - 2011-03-10 10:07

      @jaded, I assume you are just as stupid and idiotic as the DA. Do you really think the NIA is still using tape recorders. Really, wake up dude. that is part of what is so wrong with this story of zille. the NIA doesn't use tape recorders anymore, zille watch too many movies.

      Ngomo - 2011-03-10 10:57

      @xavier Have you forgotten what continent we live on??

      Xavier - 2011-03-10 11:18

      @Ngomo, nope, but you will be very naive if you think that the NIA still use tape recorders. not even in uganda, kenya etc etc uses tape recorders anymore. you surely haven't been in certain government buildings.

      Cynical Sci - 2011-03-10 12:25

      I wondered that, but then I remembered the drunk judge case where he was trying to claim that the digital recordings of him were altered. Maybe they use a tape backup because it's trickier to tamper with. Though you could always then play it into a digital recorder and then tape that.

      clifford.pike1 - 2011-03-10 14:36

      Tsk, tsk, tsk, Xavier - are you implying that you are privy to the daily processes of secretive, fringe organisations like the NIA? Hell, come to think of it, that clown on the other side of the phone, who made clicking noises and accidentally played back previously recorded conversations, so that Zille's husband could hear it and put 2+2 together - that could have been you!

  • BilboBaggins - 2011-03-10 08:01

    Get the "rules" right - the ANC can clamp down on anyone's freedom of expression except its own. Just like the defunct USSR, but what is the point of saying anything? They do what they want, when they want to and however they want to.

  • andrew - 2011-03-10 08:04

    Guess what? At judgement day there will be no advocates, did you follow procedure, innocent until proven guilty? Now, only those who know, know if they are guilty or not! I'm also sorry to inform that no ancestors will be able to assist with this matter either. It matters not what the colour of our skin is! only the fact that right is right, wrong is wrong! Revenge or abuse of power towards any citizens WILL be dealt with. I'm afraid to say we have moved away from our Creator, which happens to be God! All this so-called freedom has put us in a space we're not able to handle? Like playing soccer without lines or rules. we must decide for ourselves what is important!

  • Fred - 2011-03-10 08:06

    How can anyone believe anything that the ANC or any state-run agency says? They are all born liars, and their lies get bigger every day just so they can cling to power and milk every cent out of this country.

  • Bill - 2011-03-10 08:13

    Zumagate

  • Rob Gunning - 2011-03-10 08:16

    Who uses tape to record conversations these days anyway?

      Mike - 2011-03-10 08:52

      Those same people that use tapes!

  • LoveJesus - 2011-03-10 08:21

    Yes, ironically the word "intelligence" are mentioned!Shocking isn't it?! It should have been printed: the National Agency of Extreme Paranoia bugged the agent of extreme inelligence, which is a natural threat of the anc... bla bla bla!

  • LBS - 2011-03-10 08:36

    Maybe they're tapping her phone to get tips on how to successfully run a province, but are too shy to ask?? LMAO!!

  • mnbain - 2011-03-10 08:40

    Regulation of Interception of Communications Act - RICA Its not just you HZ, they spying on all the agents in the country

      Mike - 2011-03-10 08:51

      Zille an agent? you are nuts!

  • ffaarg - 2011-03-10 08:41

    Were they really using tapes? I mean the idea that they would use tapes sounds like something from the 80's or 90's. Its almost like they watched a movie from the Nixon era and started imagining things. I mean why on earth would any bugging device have the ability to transmit a signal. Surely it would only being able to receive the signal. Unless the NIA is actually that backward.

  • Chippa - 2011-03-10 08:49

    Zille, you are busy with electioning engineering, or you want is attention from the Pres,for him to deploy you like the two noise makers, who were successful in their campagn to be deployed outside the country,and betrayed their so caaled masses ( your Comrades by the way) I am refering to Tony and Gibson, you must talk nicely to the Cde Pres, you will be deployed, maybe in Mitchels Plain as an Ambassodor, did not know that you were married,African married woman do not behave like this, they dont tell lies,or make noise in the public,Oshh, by the way I forgot that you are not an African woman you only became one when you want African votes, where are you from?maybe Steven can advise me,or else you are both from the circus country some where in the world of the unknown,Steven if you are still staying in circus,you are a stupid, if I were you I would have left the circus in 1994, when clouwners took over, advise please go to circus hell.Our National Intelligence Agency is a competent and credible agent of our government who do not have any records of having killed people, Zille has run out of ideas of campaigning like the NATs have always sufferered elections tactics, join the ANC and you will be thought strategies and tactics, stop coming with tactical arguments you are operating at the strategic level.

      MathysTheart - 2011-03-10 09:33

      Yip, she isn't an african woman. Wasn't kidnapped when she was thirteen and forced into a marriage.

      LBS - 2011-03-10 09:59

      Oh how quickly the ANC sheeple forget when it suits them! Repeat after me..... The NATS and ANC are one party - The ANC and NATS are one party.They integrated in 1994. Same apartheid divide and rule tactics, but now with the black 'baas' in charge. The more things change the more they stay the same! We are getting the same cr@p from this government that we had from the NATS. Just a LOT MORE looting of taxpayers money! At least the NATS kept the country from falling apart ....

      Snoopy88 - 2011-03-10 14:41

      Jeesh Chippa ever heard of a full stop? And yes you're right Zille is using tactical arguments and operating at a strategic level... I think its called reasoning. How novel!

  • Mike - 2011-03-10 08:50

    So typical of this ANCircus scum - to tap the oppositions line - how low can you go?