Israel to repel new Gaza flotilla

2011-06-28 07:25

Jerusalem - Israel has ordered its navy to stop an international 10-ship aid flotilla from breaching a naval blockade of the Gaza Strip, but also to avoid clashes with activists on board.

It also dropped threats to punish reporters aboard the aid ships, a year after Israeli marine commandos stormed the lead ship of a previous flotilla, killing nine Turkish nationals in a move widely condemned across the world.

"The state of Israel will be determined in stopping the flotilla's arrival in Gaza," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said in a statement on Monday.

But forces would be ordered to do so "with minimal confrontation, as far as possible, with those on board the ships", it said without elaborating.

Netanyahu added that a threat to punish foreign journalists in the convoy by barring them from entering Israel for up to 10 years would not be carried out.

'Normal procedures'

The premier's office said he had been unaware of the original warning.

"When this was brought to the prime minister's attention, he ordered that normal procedures taken against infiltrators and those entering illegally not be applied to journalists," the statement said.

Netanyahu also said he would allow reporters to accompany naval vessels sent to intercept the flotilla "in order to allow transparent and trustworthy coverage of the events".

Organisers said that between 30 and 50 journalists were expected to sail with the flotilla.

Israeli military spokeswoman Lieutenant Colonel Avital Leibovitz told journalists on Monday that military intelligence had information the flotilla would harbour "radical elements".

'Radical elements'

"There are radical elements on board the American boat who have said they want to kill Israeli soldiers," she said.

"We also know that one of the boats is carrying dangerous incendiary chemicals that these human rights militants want to use against Israeli soldiers.

"If the lives of our soldiers are put in danger, they will act. But we would prefer to avoid physical contact," Leibovitz added.

A closed-door cabinet meeting on Monday was the second session on the flotilla in as many days.

A day earlier, ministers were briefed on the military's preparations for the flotilla, which is expected to sail from Greece later this week.

The ministers decided not to permit the ships to anchor in Gaza, although they would be allowed to unload their cargo at the Israeli port of Ashdod or Egypt's El-Arish port for checks, media reports said.


If no weapons or ammunition were found, the cargo would be transferred to the Gaza Strip.

Public radio said Cairo had already agreed to allow the ships to dock at El-Arish, which lies about 50km west of the Gaza border.

In Greece, the organisers said one of the boats was seriously damaged in what they termed an act of "sabotage".

"The propeller and the transmission shaft of the Greek-Swedish boat were cut," Dimitris Plionis told AFP.

The organisers said they would try to bring the boats together off Crete on Thursday or Friday before heading for Gaza.

Israel Hayom newspaper quoted navy chief Eliezer Marom as telling ministers that his men were better prepared than they were ahead of the deadly raid in May last year.

'Ready to stop flotilla'

"Our forces are ready to stop the flotilla and not to allow the ships to reach Gaza," an unidentified political source also told the paper.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and several international leaders have urged the flotilla not to set sail, and Washington has warned US nationals not to join the attempt to break the Israeli embargo.

"We have said that Israel has a right to defend itself against armed smuggling, but we have called on all sides for restraint, and we hope that we don't end up in the same situation we were in last year," said State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland.
"Our advice to all parties has been the same: that this is dangerous, that this is provocative," Nuland added.

At least 350 pro-Palestinian activists from 22 countries including Canada, France, Greece, Ireland, Italy and Spain are set to join "Freedom Flotilla II" in a bid to break Israel's five-year blockade on Gaza where 1.5 million Palestinians live.

Israel first imposed a blockade on the enclave in 2006 after militants there snatched Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit in a deadly cross-border raid. He is still being held.

A ban on civilian goods and foodstuffs was eased last year but many restrictions remain in place.

  • Zanu - 2011-06-28 08:01

      Zanu - 2011-06-28 08:18

      Your Picture is off; a star of David with a swastika in it... and I am brainwashed?

      Zanu - 2011-06-28 09:30

      I know what it means to Hindus... and what it means to Jews... Placed in a Star of David, I think we get your point.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 09:34

      @ Realist - that symbol of a Swastika in a Star of David is used by a bunch of loonies called the Raëlists - who believe aliens landed a long time ago and try to justify it with the Bible... @ Zanu - I hear you bro/sis

      Matt - 2011-06-28 09:47

      Yeah, I knew someone who followed the Raëlists when I was in Holland - I couldn't have made it up if I tried

      Matt - 2011-06-28 10:04

      Raëlism is crazy... just had a look just to check I was right to mention aliens - OMW... aparently they want to build an Embassy for Extraterrestrials in Jerusalem...

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 13:59

      While jokers like zanu look at cartoons (their intellectual level), serious people look at the reasons behind the flotilla, the fact that isreal imposed an ILLEGAL blockade on gaza for over 3 years now.,2933,539363,00.html

      Zanu - 2011-06-28 14:51

      O sorry I forgot... you people think of cartoons as a declaration of war. No value for life, but a scared annoyance to cartoons. Well the Danish embassy is already burned so relax. The best way too convey ones thinking is through political cartoons. And the ones on that page are all but true. Renounce terror or face the consequences. Its as easy as that.

      Zanu - 2011-06-28 14:53

      The world is a fickle place -- Anti-Semitism hasn't gone away; it's merely morphed into hatred of Israel. The Jews will never be "loved". The world will love the Jews greatly were they to roll over and die, and that is not going to happen. I'm with Machiavelli -- it is far, far better to be feared than to be loved.

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 15:46

      People who use the expression "you people.." suffer from acute racism, generalization syndrom and prejudice, it's not fatal, but sufferers go through life missing the point through the prism of their bias. Now if you believe cartoons sponsored by the isreali propaganda machine are the truth and the United nation human right chief is wrong then no wonder your views are totally skewed. I dont know what people you are referring to, but if it is the people with open eyes and mind, then i guess i'm one of them. ask your government to stop the illegal occupations, the illegal settlements, the gaza blockade or face the consequence as well, think before you vote next time and try venting your views on a forum in your country, in South Africa we dont like injustice too much...

      Matt - 2011-06-28 16:00

      @pierreedge - er, last time I checked Denmark was not a Jewish territory... how does a Danish journalist's drawing relate to the Israeli propaganda? If you go to Europe one day, you'll see that the people up there, almost all non-Jewish, have found a bitterness and anger towards Muslims for many other reasons... and yeah it's generalisation which is wrong, and the Europeans have themselves to blame for their situations... but still, how do you link a Danish drawing to the Israelis?

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 16:21

      Matt, which cartoons you are referring to? the ones in the link at the beginning of this thread are from a .il website and you know which country this is. Next i dont know who draw all those cartoons but one of them shows a steve greenberg as the author... In any case, the source is not important, their lobbies are so powerful they can arrange for such cartoons anywhere in the world. Last point about jews in Europe, where i do go often in fact, still has a large jewish population, in France for instance i know personally several jews, even DSK and his wife are jewish, and there are several jewish people in the media industry, about the same in the UK and Holland are you sure you know Europe well?

      Matt - 2011-06-28 16:42

      @ pierreedge - well, I come from England and spent 22 years of my life in Europe... nah mate, haven't got a clue ;-) "France for instance i know personally several jews" So you'll also know that Jews are fleeing places like Marseille because of the anti-Semitism they face with an increasing Muslim population then "and there are several jewish people in the media industry" Yeah, Hitler used that one as well... last time I checked, Rupert Murdoch wasn't a Jew and he runs virtually all of UK and USA's media "about the same in the UK and Holland" Yes, the UK has Jews and they are respected... the Dutch have Jews and are equally respected, the only anti-Semitism there these days is at Ajax-Feyenoord matches... btw I'm from England (8 years) and lived in Holland (14 years)

      Psalm - 2011-06-29 11:58

      @ Matt "Yeah, I knew someone who followed the Raëlists when I was in Holland - I couldn't have made it up if I tried" Can't beat my experience... I MET Raël, the founder of the Raëlian Movement. Nothing could have prepared me for it. Honestly, it was very weird. They teach that Jesus did not rise again and that he was "cloned". "elohim" = aliens who will land in 2035 (I think) and build an embassy in Jerusalem...and bring peace. Seems the Jews are not only opposed by Muslims in their claim for Jerusalem, but they now have to prepare for an alien invasion of Jerusalem as well! It must be tough being a Jew :-(

      Matt - 2011-06-29 12:56

      @ Psalm - WOW!

      Bloodbane - 2011-06-29 14:48

      @Matt imagine aliens do come and they bring a new religion with them.... think of all the debates we could have them!

  • Roger 01 - 2011-06-28 08:02

    Yeah jabski. Fight fire with fire. You are deluded as the terrorists!Cheer them on, watch them get into something they can't handle. That's where lives are lost.

      jabski - 2011-06-28 08:21

      its a peaceful demonstration full of.....peace activists! what do you want? how about attacking them with some more of that white phosphorous or do you save that for the women and children of gaza? define terrorist you clown. would you class the irgun as terrorists???

      TheWally - 2011-06-28 09:57

      FACT: Mandela was listed as a terrorist by Isreal and the USA in fact the USA (Isreal) only removed him from that list in 2004 if i remember correctly lol

      Matt - 2011-06-28 10:04

      @ TheWally - not sure about Mandela, Reagan called him a terrorist in 1985 but not after that - but Tokyo Sexwale was on their list till around 2004

      jabski - 2011-06-28 11:07

      amazing. terrorists terrorists terrorists and then mention IRGUN and not a word. how about the STERN gang? king david hotel bombing?? if the shoe fits!!!

      Cire - 2011-06-29 09:59

      @Jabski. You're about 70 years out-of-date. But, then again, Jew-Hatred never dies!

  • j4truth - 2011-06-28 08:06

    ISRAEL the last bastion of the free world. You are right to protect your sovereign land from tyranny and manipulation. Free people of the world stand with you. They that bless you will be blessed. They that harass you will be cursed! Viva ISRAEL!

      ztoefy - 2011-06-28 08:34

      Oh Please. Israel's motto is do unto others as was done unto us. Zionists have become the new NAZI's but alas the world does nothing because the zionists are in positions of power.

      Romans8 - 2011-06-28 10:17

      gw - I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. All those that stand with Israel who are Abraham's seed will be blessed and those that are against her will be cursed, so I would think that the shoe is on the other foot! Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

      Irené - 2011-06-28 10:40

      So you acknowledge, Roman8- that you do not to support Israel because of any logical reasons- but rather because some old book told you so. Stop quoting a plagiarised book for FS, no one with any sense will take you seriously. Tell me Roman- what did the rest of the world's cultures do to not ddeserve gods protection and love like the Israelis? Why isnt the whole world a holwy place- why would God choose one arbitrary place in the desert for his chosen people? Did god ever give the other cultures a chance- or were the jews always his favourite?

      Romans8 - 2011-06-28 10:50

      Irene - No Irene, I support Israel because God said so and I would rather please God than man and besides the Bible which is the Word of God tells us that the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. So I believe God by believing His Word.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 11:00

      Besides that, look at the anti-Semitism that DID happen at the time the new state was created. Russian Jews were fleeing Russia even 100+ years ago due to persecution. Austro-Hungary was very anti-Jew. Germany was anti-Jew before Hitler came along - he just used the Jews as a convenient scapegoat following the economic collapse in 1923. Even in the UK people hated Jews, but to a lesser extent. Here in SA, Jews were allowed and to a degree in the ZAR parliament, but not allowed to become too senior. The USA had anti-Semitic immigration policies just before the war - in the 1930s a Jew needed $10,000 to move to the USA, but Hitler only allowed them to flee Germany with the equivalent of $4, so when a ship full of Jews was sent by Hitler from Germany to the USA, the USA refused them entry, eventually Sweden allowed them in... and then of course WW2. So when the new State of Israel was created in 1948, few could argue the Jews didn't need it! What I don't get though is that only a few years after its creation, they annexed more land... to me that's the last thing I'd do after years of cruel persecution...

      TheWally - 2011-06-28 12:32

      looks like the founder of Zionism (Apartheid state of Isreal) was Anti Jew aswell then source:

      ztoefy - 2011-06-28 12:32

      @Matt well that's all the Palestinians want is to go back to the agreed borders which was about 50% I think but the recent talks with America ISrael basically said that it would never happen. So that's why I say how fair is that....The Jews were mistreated for decades and look what the zionists are now doing in the name of Judaism.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 12:52

      @ ztoefy - that's how I feel too... though, have a look-see at the Talmud. The Torah is the same as the OT but the Talmud is its own thing, and actually calls on the goyim (= non-Jews) to be exterminated... I don't think most Jews even know that, least of all would advocate that, but it's there for all to read... In Abhodah Zarah (26b, Tosephoth) it says: "Even the best of the Goim should be killed"

  • Bheki - 2011-06-28 08:13

    viva anc they should make malema presidant of israel and we should drive out the settlers liek here and get all our land and posessions back and nationalise israeli mines !

      Mike - 2011-06-28 08:35

      You are a troll! (read drol)

      Realist - 2011-06-28 09:21

      Whaa haaa....You are the man Bheki...

      Dannyboy - 2011-07-01 13:32

      Are you for real? Luckily, Israel is a country full of intelligent, literate and educated people who would never allow a buffoon like Julius into a position of power. in fact, he probably wouldn't be able to get a job cleaning toilets.

  • WATCHMAN - 2011-06-28 08:59

    Time is very short and these people that fight against God's covenant land and the people that He gave it to Abraham and is his seed through Isaac and Jacob, are going feel the wrath of God on them and be cut in pieces for doing so!!

      Realist - 2011-06-28 09:22

      Man...What did you have for breakfast? And why did you wash it down with a glass of stupid?

      knightomalta - 2011-06-28 09:40

      Haha, and then you can join Frodo on his quest to destroy the one ring of power in Mordor. And maybe along the way a whale will swallow you and you can live in its stomach for a few days before he spits you out. You're a very sad very hateful little man.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 09:51

      I'd be more partial to the Jews, but both parties are in the wrong. As for the chosen people thing, as a Christian I don't agree - Abraham was told he'd be the father of nationS (plural) - plus, after repeated rejection of God, did Israel not get delivered to Nebuchadnezzar in 586BC? And if the LAND Israel/Jerusalem was God's land for "God's people", why would He make them fight for it for about 2500 years now? Why not just give it to them?

      Realist - 2011-06-28 09:59

      Hey Matt... Itake back any bad comment about you... You're actually coming through as an unbiased intelligent person here...(And no, I am not beingsarcastic)...I agree with you that they're both wrong...and you have some seriously good points here..

      knightomalta - 2011-06-28 10:02

      @Realist Couldn't agree more.@Matt, nice to see some good common sense

      Matt - 2011-06-28 10:12

      Thanks :-) I have to choose my words carefully as I have Jewish friends and they're lovely people, but essentially their religion is based on rejection of Christ. Plenty Bible verses about "rejection of Son = rejection of Father" but there are also telltale signs - the Jewish Calendar was deliberately reduced by 230 years to remove any possible reference to Jesus, and in very early Christendom believers would still go to the synagogues, but the Rabbis of the day made a mandatory prayer that renounced Jesus, and those who refused to sing it were banned for life... and one thing I don't get is how they stick to the laws and rituals perfectly, but out of duty - when throughout both OT (= Torah) and NT, it's abundantly clear God favours compassion above all - throughout, God shows favour towards those who love Him genuinely, rather than those who just do what they have to out of duty... and some things really are done out of duty! EG if El-Al messes up adn their flight lands at the airport on Friday evening, Orthodox Jew passengers are compelled to remain at the airport, not popping to Steers for food (it causes labour on a Sabbath), till Saturday evening. No, the God I worship would say "call a taxi, go home and eat!" Still, I love everybody, including my Jewish friends :-)

      Cornix - 2011-06-28 10:22

      "For then, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem (sometime after 1948), I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat (outside Jerusalem), and I will enter into judgment with them there, on account of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations. They have divided my land (Israel), and cast lots for my people, and traded boys for prostitutes, and sold girls for wine, and drunk it down." (Joel 3:1-3)

      WATCHMAN - 2011-06-28 10:30

      Matt - just be careful that you don't go down the road of compromise. The covenant to the Jews with regard to the land that god gave them is everlasting. Gen 17:7-8 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. (8) And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 11:11

      @ Watchman - I have a fair few enemies on News24 because I don't compromise ;-) I know God will never turn His back on anybody, but what about the New Jerusalem as is told of? There is an attitude/belief, even among many Christians, that the Jews are God's chosen people, yet the Bible clearly states how one can only get to Heaven through Jesus (John 3:16, 14:6 for example), how rejection of the Son equates to rejection of the Father (many verses). But still, my question is - why didn't God just give the Jews the land without hassle? Since it became part of Babylon, got split up, then became Roman domain, then Arab and later British domain... and now there is Israel but there are still huge issues over there. God gave them Israel back numerous times in history, why no more?

      ztoefy - 2011-06-28 12:35

      So what about Isaac's brother Ishmael? Isn't his seed also part of the chosen people?

      Bloodbane - 2011-06-29 11:11

      You all are forgetting on very important thing... there is no god, ie no land was given to anyone... what I really like is christain's trying to apease jews.... simple fact is if you believe in a religion there should be no apeasing.... if you truly believe that is. Compramise only works if you have dout.

      Matt - 2011-06-29 11:58

      Oh no, not Bloodbane... btw there's a difference between appeasing and compromising. Personally I'm not appeasing to Jews, Muslims or anybody, I'm Christian and that's that. But what's wrong with looking at something objectively, giving observations of both parties, and maybe deciding who you'd sooner agree with? OK, away from religion for a seccie... say you were a staunch Bulls supporter and would sooner die than wear another team's shirt, but the Bulls were knocked out and now the Stormers are the only SA team in the finals. Would you put aside your rivalry to support an SA team (without becoming a Stormers fan or wearing their shirt), or would you still hate the Stormers "no compromise" style?

      Bloodbane - 2011-06-29 12:28

      @Matt - but, and this is a big BUT supporting a rugby team cant get your soul forever dammed. If I believed in a god, someone who had control of my eternal soul, then there would be no compramise, there would be my god and only my god, anyone who did not believe would be an enemy, as they would be against my god. back to the rugyb, there is no excuse for wearing a bulls shirts, stomers..ok lions, better, sharks all the way...maybe cheetas, but never bulls! :) BTW what do you mean not bloodbane!!!

      Matt - 2011-06-29 12:34

      My point being, looking at a situation and taking a side does not mean you're compromising your faith. If you take the 2008 terror bombings in Mumbai, and I said that the attack was wrong (which it was!), would that make me a Hindu?

      Bloodbane - 2011-06-29 13:07

      @Matt - My point being, when it comes to religion there are no side's. If you believe in god then thats it's! end of discussion, everyone can only be 100% wrong, there's no discussion, no compramise, becuase anything like that would be the same as comparimising your religion. In this day and age of gobal capatilism it's impossibly to be truly faithfull becuase you allway have to deal with the to speak. A trully religious person who believed 100% in their god would not even discuss this, or have any dealings at all with anyone who did not believe....

  • TruthSeeker - 2011-06-28 09:04

    The anti-Israeli sentiment around the world defies a rational explanation. Terrorist states are allowed to hold a UN Security Council seat, but Israel never has, despite requesting it. The UN has spent an inordinate amount of time manipulating and meddling in the affairs of Israel, but fails to decry the murder of kids and civilians. There is a very obvious and blatant bias against Israel, yet people are too blind to see and swallowed in by the propaganda put forward by a world that does not take biblical prophecy for what it is. Open your eyes and see - go to the library and read uo on the internet. The truth is there, if you are brave enough and open minded enough to face it.

      Realist - 2011-06-28 09:24

      Oh yes, well done, here we go again...OH we jews are so're anal truth seeker... Go look at the foundations of the UN...why have a seat when you won teh table...idiot

      WATCHMAN - 2011-06-28 09:55

      Realist - No had a bowl of cornflakes with some milk and a bit of yoghurt and mmmmmmm it was good! Oh yes had a banana as well.

      WATCHMAN - 2011-06-28 09:56

      Realist- I'm sure you should change your name to Satanist!

      Matt - 2011-06-28 09:57

      I have no faith or trust in the UN - I've seen quotes from them state that they'll happily use food as a weapon of repression - that they are intent on a one-world-government - nope, not happy with them... but TruthSeeker, are you looking at the Bible from a Christian perspective, or possibly at the Torah from a Jewish perspective? Just asking.

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 12:38

      Which terrorist states are allowed on the council?? DO you even know what you are talking about, there are 5 permanent members, who pretty much decide everything with their veto power, China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Which one is a terrorist state??? As for the increasing anti isreali administration, not people (i prefer to clarify that), when you keep hearing over and over about OCUUPIED territories, ILLEGAL settlements, ILLEGAL blockade on gaza (Simply because palestinians decided to vote a way isreal didnt like,)chemical attacks in gaza (1500 civilians murdered), thousands of palestinains political prisonners (NOT terrorist but people isreal decided they didnt like) etc etc it starts to get really annoying and gets people pretty miffed to put it mildly. No other country in the world is occupying others people's land, or causing so much controversy. So open your eye truthseeker, remove your blinkers and try to keep an open mind, other change your name to Lieseeker

  • Romans8 - 2011-06-28 09:05

    These Arabs an their Liberal friends who are so influenced by their lies are fighting against a wall! If they are not careful perhaps a storm will hit them whilst at sea!!!

      Realist - 2011-06-28 09:25

      Arabs and liberal in teh same sentence? You my friend deserve a glass of $hut the @#$$ up...

      Paco7 - 2011-06-28 09:32

      @ Realtit, I can tell by your comments you a 'bright' one, maybe you should get on-board one of these ships and hopefully you will get a chance to show just how brave you are. Doos!

      Realist - 2011-06-28 09:43

      @Paco7 - Or I could meet you and show you how brave I am...???

      Romans8 - 2011-06-28 09:58

      Realist - I agree with Watchman, you have to be a Satanist! Besides according to God's word your cursed!!!

      Will2.0 - 2011-06-28 10:40

      Romans8...according to God's word you should also "love thy neighbour" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." How you just happen to conveniently forget this all the time is beyond me. Not that I care anymore, but I'd say abusing "God's word" in such a way to suit your own, arguably evil, agendas is blasphemous. Which makes you an enemy of God too, no?

      Romans8 - 2011-06-28 11:04

      @ Will2.0 - Just because I make a statement does not mean that I don't care for my fellow human beings. I would rather see all obey God and give their lives over to Jesus Christ. What I said is true. Are you just willfully ignorant and read the parts of the Bible that you feel will be pleasing to you. Read what the prophets said about the last days, read the whole word of God not just what suits you and tickles your ears. Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

      Irené - 2011-06-28 11:06

      Roman- do you know what is a satanist/ or does your pastor teach you to point your finger at anyone differnt from your religion and shout HEATHEN! antichrist!! Use your 'god given' reason for once and stop this playground name calling! We are opposed to Israel occupation based on their actions and behaviour- you support Israel because some book told you so- why are religious people so insidious??

      Matt - 2011-06-28 11:16

      @ Will - just because Romans8 takes a side or tunes someone, doesn't mean she is not loving her neighbour... @ Romans8 - best is not to tell a non-believer they're cursed. After plenty of debates, one main reason for non-believers to hate Christianity is because of believers telling them they're cursed and going to hell... they end up looking down on the "fear factor" and then claim we believe out of fear - when the exact opposite is true

      Matt - 2011-06-28 11:38

      @ Irené - I agree, name-calling is weak and not helpful... maybe Satanist was a strong word, but "they who are not for me are against me" - that's pretty clear. When you start to hover in-between to appease people, well that for one is how the Catholic Church started in the first place... so, having a "yes/no" attitude is just fine - you choose a side and stick to it for better or worse. Plus, rather get morals from a book than have them "emerge" out of the clear blue sky and just hope and "pray" (ahem) that everyone feels the same...

      Irené - 2011-06-28 11:58

      @ matt we dont take our morals and ethics from clear blue sky- really now- do you think we are that arrogant? I was born with a conscience, something that told me right from wrong- if I do harm to someone, I feel bad, and although i am not a xtian, I agree that you should do unto others as you want them to do unto you. I dont need a fictitious man up in the sky to tell me that. I used to think everyone had that little voice that helped them from telling right from wrong- but you have kind of proven my point- it seems religious people are born devoid of a conscience. Please read through some of these comments- have you noticed how blood thirsty the pro-israeli religious group is? Is that really what god would have wanted? Please answer me this: Are the Jews Gods favourite people? Or was god the creator of all people and therefore love all equally? Thats where my religious convictions were nullified. How can we look at the world we live in today and think their is a loving god looking over everything? Where was God during the holocaust? apartheid? When Haiti was nearly destroyed... Why does God only favour the Jews and Xtians, but not the rest of humanity- what about the people who never heard of Xtianity before they died? Does God love the Amazonian tribes who are not in contact with the rest of the world? If god really loved his children, wouldnt he have made himself accessible to all, instead of just the middle east?

      Matt - 2011-06-28 12:13

      @ Irené - read through mine too :-) "I was born with a conscience, something that told me right from wrong" Yes, and if there is no God, and no holy book, then where did this come from? "I used to think everyone had that little voice that helped them from telling right from wrong" Same point - where did that come from and who/what is that little voice? "Are the Jews Gods favourite people?" Many seem to think so, I sure don't - but I said that earlier... "If God really loved his children, wouldnt he have made himself accessible to all, instead of just the middle east?" Er, He is accessible to everyone... it's whether everyone is willing to access Him! As for the suffering thing, 2 things: 1) If someone does something bad to another, is God to blame or the person who did wrong? Did God command Hitler to unleash evil, or was it Hitler? If someone good dies in an accident, did God tell either party to be there at that time? 2) The Bible says that God will bring together all things for good if you'll let Him. Good things happen, bad things happen, but if you'll let Him, they will come together for good. If you came to me hungry and I offered you flour, that's gross - 2 raw eggs, yuck - a pinch of salt, yuck - some oil to wash it down, yuck - milk, hmm - bring them together and ou have pancakes, yummy! Same principle... As for others being bloodthirsty, I'm sure not, but they may answer for themselves... and it's not just the pro-Israel comments btw

      Romans8 - 2011-06-28 12:18

      Irené - Why do you have a one sided stance, I don't see you attacking Realist and his likes. He has said some pretty disgusting comments like "You my friend deserve a glass of $hut the @#$$ up... and so on, on this site and called people idiots. If he makes comments with anti semite statements and rhetoric like that and uses wording as he does, then he's of his father the devil in my opinion. And you choose to side with him! Hmmmmmmmm.

      Irené - 2011-06-28 12:59

      @ matt You are equating God with pancake batter? Seriously?? My point is there need not be a god to have a conscience- its a paradigm shift you make, but then it all makes sense- I cannot explain that to you, just like you say you have to experience the love of jesus to understand. You say god is accessible to all- and maybe in a esoteric sense- but according to Xtians- you need to accept Jesus into your life as your savior- now, thats all fine and dandy except that millions of people have lived and died not ever hearing the name Jesus. Not at their fault- they might have been good people, living good lives, and just because they did not hear of Jesus (a guy that lived in the middle east 2000 yrs ago,) they wont be allowed into heaven, that sounds like a super unreasonable God. If you spent your life in the South pacific, the ancient text books from the middle east are of little value to you. So my point is, no great opmnipotent god would only choose one religion. Otherwise he shouldnt have created 7 continents. Thats why i dont think the religion you practice is that important, it depends on your country of origin and your roots- I could only believe in a god that gives fair chances and therefore loves his children regardless of what name they call him but how they live their lives. I am a naturalist and respect the earth and its creatures equally, as soon as you add an egotistical God (read egotistical people), the world becomes madness- as we can see now

      Matt - 2011-06-28 13:17

      @ Irené - I was trying to show with a non-religious example that some things in life are not good initially, but come together for good - but you missed the flotilla... And why is it unreasonable for God to ask that you accept Jesus as your Saviour in order to go to Heaven? Hardly a huge thing to ask in return for an eternity in paradise. Naturalist - wasn't that a bunch of people running around starkers in nudist colonies - that's what they're called btw... I highly doubt you respect all creatures equally - maybe you'd happily hug a cow but somehow I doubt you'd apply the same theory if you had a bunch of ants or cockroaches in your room... As for all the continents, well you're assuming there was no way of knowing outside Asia Minor/Europe of Jesus - the Gospel back then made it as far as India (as far as has been found), there was a 1500yr old Byzantine stone with Gospel found in New Mexico, the flood story made it all over the world... news does travel! At the Tower of Babel, people dispersed all over the world - they had a chance way before Christ to come right with God as they witnessed God's power first-hand, but didn't... BTW, was made aware last night of an apparently stunning book, the Archko Files - various people testifying to Jesus including Pilate and Caiaphas, and the events surrounding the times - I can't comment as I haven't read it yet, but apparently when Jesus was born, there was music and praises in the skies... will have to try and find that one!

      Romans8 - 2011-06-28 13:17

      @Irene - No you're a witch. God's Word, not mine calls the sin of rebellion witchcraft. It is quite clear to me that you are against God's Word and I know that naturalists like you are against God's word and for anything contrary to it. Matt should wake up to this fact. I don't hate any person on this forum, nor do I hate any person. I would like to see all men saved. Nor am I blood thirsty, but God's word is very clear what will happen to people that are against Him and against Israel. Did you know that just one case in sample, that every time that America has in recent years tried to divide the land of Israel or interfere with Israel borders, they have had major natural disasters within 12 to 48 hours of their actions. Recently the tornados in America which have been of the highest recorded have been linked to Obamas interference.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 13:18

      "as soon as you add an egotistical God (read egotistical people), the world becomes madness- as we can see now" Er no... God's just fine, it's when the people who decide to do their own thing that we end up with madness!

      Zee - 2011-06-28 13:42

      Irene it's no use with some of these people because the one fundamental thing they they miss is the fact that their God is not everyone's God! They keep harping on about how their God promised them this and that - so I'll ask again. If my God said it was ok to head to another land, occupy it and force everyone else off because he promised it to me ONLY would other people of different beliefs be satisfied with this? Why would anyone even want that??

      Matt - 2011-06-28 14:01

      @ Romans8 - Irené and I have clashed quite a few times before :-) I'll be direct about something or try to answer her questions, but name-calling helps nobody. If someone makes a point which is wrong, or asks a question, I'll try to answer - retorting that she's a witch will hardly make her change her mind and love God, will it now... Not saying that I agree with new-age claptrap though... all creatures are NOT equal, humans are equal in God's eyes and we should love each other as such, but we are not equal with all creatures - humans have dominion over the earth and all that in it is, but then again you'd have to believe in God to understand that... if you believe we got here by chance, or if you worship Mother Earth, you wouldn't have a rational explanation why humans are worth far more than a dog or a monkey...

      Matt - 2011-06-28 14:03

      @ Romans8 - Irené and I have clashed quite a few times before :-) I'll be direct about something or try to answer her questions, but name-calling helps nobody. If someone makes a point which is wrong, or asks a question, I'll try to answer - retorting that she's a witch will hardly make her change her mind and love God, will it now... Not saying that I agree with new-age claptrap though... all creatures are NOT equal, humans are equal in God's eyes and we should love each other as such, but we are not equal with all creatures - humans have dominion over the earth and all that in it is, but then again you'd have to believe in God to understand that... if you believe we got here by chance, or if you worship Mother Earth, you wouldn't have a rational explanation why humans are worth far more than a dog or a monkey...

      Irené - 2011-06-28 14:14

      No I am not a witch nor a nudist for calling myself a naturalist! Jeez get an education Romans8 and Matt- are you part of the flat earth society aswell? Or do you just believe the earth is 6000 yrs old? So you have decided I must be a witch because I use my reason- you clearly belong in the dark ages. Let me clarify, i study natural processes and science. So I base my opinions of biology, evolution etc on observable facts. Your claims that going against Israel will result in natural disasters are insane- so what did the Japanese and Haitians do to warrant what happened to them? Haiti is predominantly XTIAN- so what does god have against them?If you are an xitan- why defend Jews-they dont believe in Jesus! @matt,I dont kill ants or cockroaches,they have their place in nature and its not my right to forcefully remove them-I dont live in a dump either, just keep my place clean &free of toxic chemicals NATURALISM is not a religion:"Naturalism is the philosophical belief that only natural laws and forces (as opposed to supernatural ones) operate in the world." So nextROmans8 will be calling me a satanist are one of the most delusional &judgemental people Ive come across. Some facts: OBAMA IS PRO-ISRAEL btw-please supply some proof of this divine intervention in defence of Israel. I am also curious-if all man started with Adam and Eve- please explain why there are different races and creeds? My beliefs stand the test of time- yours falls flat without the bible.

      Irené - 2011-06-28 14:21

      also we would all be inbred if we only had one birthing couple- you understand that Eve had to sleep with her sons, it says so in the bible? How messed up is that? You called me a witch- you know that they no longer burn witches right, because we are not living in the middle ages- Id much rather be considered a witch (in other words seeker of knowledge and truth) than a religious zealot with absolutely F-all knowledge of the world i live in. Tell me, do they award points at school for explaining Adam and Eve, or do kids get tested on actual science like the elements table, newtons laws and evolution? You cant possibly think that every acedemic in the world is the work of the devil! Heres the truth, if there is a god, and he created me, he made me intelligent because I ask questions and seek answers- no loving God would punish me for the way he made me.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 14:36

      @ Irené - "are you part of the flat earth society aswell? Or do you just believe the earth is 6000 yrs old?" Funny you should mention the Flat Earth Society - you do know it's currently led by an evolutionist called Daniel Shenton? (and yes I believe the earth is around 6000 years old, with good reason) "I study natural processes and science. So I base my opinions of biology, evolution etc on observable facts." Hmm and what observable facts do you have? Biology, by all means, nobody can argue - evolution, nope... that's not the observation of changes over a period of time - it's a belief that a kind can change its kind - this has never ever been observed! So a white dog and a brown dog can produce a white dog with brown spots, that's variation WITHIN KIND and nobody argues it's impossible, even the Bible agrees... it's when you believe that the dog can produce a hamster or something that it goes from fact to fairytale... which you evidently swallowed. To think I used to swallow that too... btw go through a biology textbook and you can easily haul out the "proof" which was proven wrong/false many years ago... I guess you still believe a foetus has gill slits? Still used as proof today, proven wrong in court in 1874... "Haiti is predominantly XTIAN" Er, no it's not... it's rife with witchcraft! "why defend Jews-they dont believe in Jesus!" Ever heard of Jews for Jesus :-) and hey I'm the first one here to say BOTH are at fault...

      Matt - 2011-06-28 14:42

      @ Irené - I do wonder what Bible you were reading... "also we would all be inbred if we only had one birthing couple- you understand that Eve had to sleep with her sons, it says so in the bible? How messed up is that?" Firstly, Eve did not sleep with her sons - where's the verse to prove that? Secondly, incest laws weren't needed or made till some 2000 years later - thirdly - what's the alternative? Evolution? "From goo to the zoo to you" and even then the first evolved human had to find someone to marry... "Id much rather be considered a witch (in other words seeker of knowledge and truth) than a religious zealot with absolutely F-all knowledge of the world i live in." Oh, you haven't met full-blown atheists... they're more religiously zealous than me :-) "Tell me, do they award points at school for explaining Adam and Eve, or do kids get tested on actual science like the elements table, newtons laws and evolution? You cant possibly think that every acedemic in the world is the work of the devil!" Where does the Bible say science is bad? It's PACKED with science! But if you believe evolution is science... tja! "Heres the truth, if there is a god, and he created me, he made me intelligent because I ask questions and seek answers- no loving God would punish me for the way he made me." Did God create you to become a naturalist, or did you CHOOSE that life? I can't help thinking you hate God rather than reject God - did someone religious hurt you in life?

      Matt - 2011-06-28 14:44

      @ Irené. I will admit to one error I made... I confused naturalism with naturism - my bad.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 14:54

      @ Irené - "am also curious-if all man started with Adam and Eve- please explain why there are different races and creeds?" The Bible doesn't say, but the best theory is that at the Tower of Babel, when God confused the people (who thought they were intelligent and as a result starting rejecting God and doing their own things... gee doesn't that sound familiar), they got other languages and dispersed all over the world - so probably different races came from that. That would still be more feasible than that all races came from a rock 4 billion years ago... "My beliefs stand the test of time- yours falls flat without the bible." Or rather, the Bible supports natural phenomena and observable science, and your beliefs stem from hatred of one rather than logic of another... you studied biology, right - so when you look at a bacteria, too small to see with your eye, but has hairs, with motors on each one, 40 parts per motor, which go at 100,000 RPM, so the bacteria moves 90km/h through water, and if 1 part of 1 motor was missing or broken, the bacteria couldn't move - would you say that was designed? Or did it come by chance? When the removal of 2 nucleotides out of tens of billions will kill life, and each kind is millions of nucleotides different to another kind, did that happen by chance? 50-trillion cells in a human body, arranged to work perfectly, did that happen by chance? Or was it designed that way ??

      Romans8 - 2011-06-28 15:43

      Irené - Get real don't be blinded like the rest of the world. Obama is against Israel, the very fact that he donated a vast amount of money to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt who are venemos in their stance toward Israel. The only thing holds Obama back from having his total way is the American Congress. He masquarades as a friend of Israel and not so long ago the Israeli Prime Minister went across to Israel and was so badly treated by Obama it was dispicable. End of argument!

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 17:11

      WOW, i completely missed this debate here about evolution vs creationism, very interesting. Am rather agnostic myself with an atheist tendancy but matt made some interesting comments although irene seems more logical, and a bit short tempered it seems. I would call it a close victory by irene by a few points. You lost the game matt when you said you beleived the earth was 6000 years old when we have physical evidence to the contrary, the oldest fossile dating around 2.5 billion years ago and the human one being over a million years old

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 17:28

      Roman8, i believe he was badly treated by Obama because of yet more illegal settlements that put the last peace process in jeopardy. They committed to no more settlements, but went behind Obama's back and started to build some more...sneaky. Friends don't lie to Friends!

      Bloodbane - 2011-06-29 11:18

      @Romans8 damn I came into this late.... BUT calling someone a witch.. LOL whichcraft was adding into the bible by king james, Hence his bible being called king james bible in around 1700's cant be bothered to look for the actuall date since twits like you cant be bothered with facts that disrupt your dream land.... witchcraft was never statanic and in many respect what jesus used to heal the sick was witchcraft... no one can ever take someone seriouly when they have no flipping clue about thier own religion.... before sprouting rubbish I suggest you get an education..... Matt, please try educate this guy, he's giving christian a bad name and makes it too easy for me to "attack" christain. no challange with poeple like that.

      Matt - 2011-06-29 12:06

      @ Pierreedge - nothing wrong with 6000 years when you look at how the dating of fossils actually works (to spare you the fancy jargon - they date the fossil by the layer and the layer by the fossil - hardly science) and then look at other elements that show that things HAD to have happened "recently" to be possible... (btw, fossil - saw one last night of a fish giving birth - how slow must that birth have been if it took millions of years to fossilise, heck even if it took years) @ Bloodbane - you're the umpteenth atheist to say there's no such thing as free will. If there was no free will, then how do people as yourself choose not to accept God? How do people choose to have various religions? How do people of various religions choose to abandon God? Simple - God could easily have 6-billion pre-programmed robots, but where's the satisfaction in that? Rather have a few who truly love Him. Compassion over duty... As for Moses being bad... d'oh! The Bible is full of examples of bad people who still end up diong work for the Lord. Even if your life has been terribly sinful, you can still do good. Take a leaf out of that book... Moses killed an Egyptian, had a stammer, but went on to lead the Jews to freedom. But he never saw Israel himself - i.e. punished in the end. Half the Bible is written by murderers and adulterers - check King David. He also got his just punishment, but went on to do some great things and is revered as a great king to this day!

      Matt - 2011-06-29 12:16

      @ Bloodbane - "how do you know the devil is evil.... since he was never evil in jewish religion, he was the judge, he "turned" evil when christian stole the jewish religion" Please tell me you're joking... firstly, just a simple thing for you to google - the Jewish Torah and Christian Old Testament are the same book... And then probably the blatantly obvious, that the devil is just as much part of Judaism as Christianity... and both agree that Satan was created as a good angel but went rogue: Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Isaiah 14:12-18 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? Both are quotes that can be found in the OT AND Torah... so, you were saying about Jews not having a devil?

      Bloodbane - 2011-06-29 12:18

      @Matt, I'm not saying there is no free will, I'm saying the deck is stacked... it's like putting a gun to your head and saying "you either worship me, or you die," but in this case you're going to die anyway... if he was turly lving he would not have created evil, would have let us all live in paradise. we'd still have free will, just with out the evil.

      Bloodbane - 2011-06-29 12:29

      @Matt, what new age claptrap are you reffering to wichcraft is old than cristianity!

      Matt - 2011-06-29 12:40

      Firstly, naturalist, pagan, druidery etc is often referred to as new-age, it's a name... for people who worship the earth and elements (to generalise) Secondly, as I was saying - if there were no free will, and we were pre-programmed, then what's the point? If the world were a paradise, two things would happen - 1) we would all behave perfectly, but that would require there to be no free will; or 2) as humans we'd eventually find a way to stuff it up... Besides, being sinners as we all are, if God just gave us everything for nothing, what would we do with it? If we had even a smidgeon of sin within us, and we didn't have to go to work to earn money to provide food, if we didn't have to work to buy a house to live in as it would have been given to us... what would we do all day? Answer - we'd think of ways to sin more. Just have a look at welfare states to see this in action. Like in the UK, when you see "professional unemployed" people, funny how a lot of them spend their days in the pub or down the betting houses...

      Bloodbane - 2011-06-29 13:09

      @Matt god made sin, god made man sinners, where was the choice in that. if god made me, where was my choice in being made? and where is the choice if you are told do this or else?

      Matt - 2011-06-29 13:10

      @ Bloodbane - to be fair, I did try with Romans8 - name-calling does no good at all... Jesus and witchcraft, heck no - if there is an Almighy God who can do anything, and He has a Son who is part fo the Trinity, then it's divine intervention, not witchcraft. Jesus didn't exactly summon up spirits and mix dragon blood or whatever, nor did Jesus worship the sun or the elements... but I guess that's up to opinion hey. BTW, King James Bible was published in 1611, the last revision was in 1729 - by revisions, the text was not changed but there were spelling mistakes - this was the 17th Century after all ;-)

      Matt - 2011-06-29 13:25

      @ Bloodbane - "if god made me, where was my choice in being made?" Blame your parents ;-) "and where is the choice if you are told do this or else?" Don't you at least believe that everything you do in life, good or bad, has consequences? Whether it's eternal damnation, being out of pocket, going to jail, or even positive outcomes - EVERYTHING has a consequence. Besides, I guess you're hinting at "do this and that, or else you'll go to Hell" - firstly, once you're saved, you're saved - that's an everlasting covenant. You'll inevitably still sin, which you shouldn't do but you will do, and you'll get your punishment in one way or another, but you're still saved (this shouldn't be seen as a license to sin... but those who would see it that way wouldn't be becoming Christian, would they, as they wouldn't mean it when they accept)... but one fallacy among atheists is that they think Christians are Christians out of fear - "ooh cripes we don't want to go to Hell, so hail God" - if once you're saved you're saved, what have we to fear? And as for "if you don't accept Jesus you'll go to Hell", well sorry bud, that's just the way it is - I don't agree with the people though who use that as a threat - I'm sure most atheists know it anyway so why flaunt the point as an attack...

      Bloodbane - 2011-06-29 13:33

      @Matt - lets clasify witchcraft, I'm not talking splls here I'm talking about having the knowlages of the land and plants to help and heal people. IE the original true meaning of wichcraft. King james verious added that witch craft was satanic, it was added to justify the burning of any women who they thought was a witch. eg if a women lived on her own, if she had a black cat, if she could cure people with herbs. Even the bible has Recipes for herd to heal people. which is witchcraft.

      Matt - 2011-06-29 13:49

      @ Bloodbane - lol! So say I used a plant or a herb to cure an ailment, I'm practising witchcraft? You do of course realise that you've basically referred to the Afrikaner volk as witches... see, during the Boer War, Afrikaners used herbal remedies, which they got from Holland (Holland to this day is extremely homeopathic), and the British labelled them as barbarians because they did so. So now we're in 2011 and you're saying that recipes with herbs is witchcraft... lol that made me smile :-) And which verses did the KJV add to include witchcraft? Just a point of research, when you've found me the verse, just have a look to see if the same verse is in other language Bibles too. For example, look it up in the Dutch Statenbijbel (1618) or the German Lutherbibel (1545, ie before KJV). Or the Wycliffe Bible (16th Century, before English even became an official language). And then for extra authenticity, read the original Textus Receptus manuscripts in Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT). If you find that only the KJV has such a verse "added" for the goverment's sinister reasons, you could have a point. My guess is that you'll find it in other Bibles before/after/other languages too...

      Bloodbane - 2011-06-29 14:08

      @Matt here we come down to a break down in translation. firstly saying that boer practised witchcraft because they used herd to heal is the same as saying I'm a doctor because I put a plaster on my finger..... If you look at the old translation non of them translate to witch, more often it's sorceror or magi. and that actually ties back nicley into what I've said before about traslation and the inacuriciey of the bible. They've taken soceror and magi and paganism and witchcraft and clumped them all together with out bothering to try find out what each is and what each means. and if you look at what each means I'd far prefer the world to be run on a religion based on druidism than on christianity.... far less violence for one. whictcraft or wise craft is or was a way of using your knowlage to help people, had nothhing to edo with spirit worship or anthything else... in fact all the practisors of whichcraft I know are far more religious towards christianity than most christain are. They actually believe there is a god and follow his teachings, something 99% of chirstain dont do..... just look at how much comparimise there is in the bible, no one... not one single person follow the letter of the original christian texts. closest followers of a religioun are the teliban, and look what we call them? I dont like them at all but at least they actually follow thier relogion, they dont change it to suite the time.

      Bloodbane - 2011-06-29 14:20

      @Matt, I can also quote: Satan (Hebrew: ???????? ha-Satan), "the accuser",[1] is the title of various entities, both human and divine, who challenge the faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible.[2] In Christianity and Islam the title became a personal name, and "Satan" changed from an accuser appointed by God to test men's faith to the chief of the rebellious fallen angels ("the devil" in Christianity, "Shaitan" in Arabic, the term used by Arab Christians and Muslims).[3] Early Judaism was, of course, utterly monistic. The god Yahweh encompassed both good and evil, mercy and justice, yet could not be assigned a specific moral character.

      Matt - 2011-06-29 15:17

      @ Bloodbane - I'd disagree, and wonder where you got that from... but 1) they're busy moderating and closing off related articles to this story and 2) I'm on so come on over, it's a humour-filled open-day :-)

      pierreedge - 2011-06-29 15:51

      Matt, dating methods are quite reliable, and even if we add a margin of error of 20% if you want, there is no way the earth is 6000 years old. Whether this fossil is indeed human or not, it proves that there were bipeds on this earth at least a million years ago, and that the earth is much older (or at least a million year old...) Just by curiosity, why this round arbitrary number of 6000, and not say 5678 or 6129???

  • david - 2011-06-28 09:08

    Isreal is worse than SA ever was. Gaza is just an open air prison, and Isreal's right to defend against arms smuggling also includes crayons for children, and medicines. FREE GAZA!

      TruthSeeker - 2011-06-28 09:23

      So it is okay to kill Israeli kids in terror attacks with those weapons, but don't deny a 'Palestinian' kid his toys and crayons?

      Realist - 2011-06-28 09:25

      Here here David...You have my vote

      Realist - 2011-06-28 09:38

      Yo truth seeker... If you so avidly seek the truth, why do you refuse to acknowledge it? When you see those edited pictures of your 'poor' folk in concentration camps, do you like it?

      Realist - 2011-06-28 09:47

      And whiel you're at it Paco P03S...decide which side you arguing for...You knob

      Paco7 - 2011-06-28 09:58

      @Realtit. I am your side, the side of the feeble minded ... team retard

      Matt - 2011-06-28 09:58

      @ Realist - I've been to war museums and seen for myself artefacts made from Jews. If you ever visit Holland, go to the one in Roermond. I also had an uncle who was in a Dutch camp in WW2 (not a Jew, but the Nazis wanted him dead anyway). The extermination was real bru...

      Realist - 2011-06-28 10:16

      @Matt - I dont disagree that teh campe were real, what I believe is that the Jews are making a meal of it cos it benefits them...There were germans in those camps, and now I learn, dutch as well...Hitlers ideal was with appearance not just religion...either way, they make a meal of it by chorusing how what happened to them is so bad, and then hypocritically go and do it to soemone else, which you have to admit is wrong... On a serious note(Forget all my antics here to just P people off for fun) This fight is about the land around the area of Masjid ul Aqsa and the land of the temple of Solomon, why not just each have their own and stop behaving like children with fireworks, blowing sh!T up just to see how nice it looks...the fact is, they dont need to destroy an entire country to each have their own religious place, dont you agree?

      Matt - 2011-06-28 10:33

      I can understand that - you are not allowed to criticise them because then you're anti-Semitic - I can understand when Israel needs to defend itself, like when Egypt tried its luck some 40 years ago, I just don't understand why after the atrocities of WW2, they get their land and then invade other territories... at the same time, Jews do need their own land and you only need to look at real anti-Semitism which did take place in Europe in those days...

      Matt - 2011-06-28 11:24

      Just a slight deviation of the Israel issue - what about Kashmir? Isn't that the same darn battle? Muslim vs Hindu fighting over a tiny spot that's deemed holy by both sides? It does confuse me a bit - the Dome of the Rock is deemed holy by Muslims, but for some reason the Jews too, wasn't it the site where their old temple was? Indeed, why can't they just stop fighting... someone I know who used to live up there reckons that the Jews would absolutely love peace with the Palestinians, if they could just stop attacking the Jews - then there are antics such as the Palestinians coming into Jewish territory to consume things otherwise forbidden by Islam (eg alcohol)...

      gw - 2011-06-28 12:09

      David, I was there, I saw for myself what goes on and let me tell you, even as a Christian I felt the pain of the Palestenians. I don't know if Roman8 or Matt or Truthseeker have ever been outside their anal minds...I think not that's why they can make such stupid and ignorant statements. I think it's only fair to enlighten them that it's not only Muslim Arabs in Palestine, but Christians as well as a few older Jewish people. The term "Arab" does not describe a religion, but a geographical nation, same as Chinese, Indian, etc. No religion in the world condones violence, terrorism and hatred! Why can't the Israelis' not just allow the food and medical supplies into Gaza? Seeing as how they're not paying for it, there really shouldn't even be a problem! Is it perhaps greed that prevents them from kindness? I must admit I have never read the Torah. Perhaps someone could quote the verse where it states that one should deprive humans of food, shelter, warmth, medicine, etc as well as the verse which states that one can murder, steal and blasphemise??? And only authentic verses PLEASE!

      Matt - 2011-06-28 12:30

      @ GW - what part of my comments don't you like... I've said that I'm more inclined towards the Jewish side but also state that both are wrong... it's not like I'm 100% partial towards one side here! "No religion in the world condones violence, terrorism and hatred!" Then maybe you should read up on religion - some do! The Koran is full of it (even if many Muslims are peaceful, its book isn't), and so does the Talmud (hence I keep asking what role it actually plays in Judaism because I don't know any Jews who read it, yet it's there and it's disgusting)... As for the Torah, if you've ever read the Old Testament, then you've read the Torah too. What Christians call OT, they call Torah, being a collection of the Pentateuch, Judges, Kings and Prophets. BTW I've travelled quite a bit and dealt with loads of people of different cultures - it's not like I've been stuck in SA all my life and have a simple opinion... lived in 3 countries, been to 6 others (and it's still not enough, lol) I'm not against people wanting to help others, but is it 100% pure desire to help people? I think not. There are motives too, such as pro-Palestine camps expecting to disembark on Jewish soil, travel on Jewish land while at the same time being clearly anti-Israel... maybe I'm too skeptical but agencies with the Palestinian flag in their emblem don't strike me as impartial do-gooders...

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 12:47

      If the kids parent vote for a government that push for illegal settlements and to occupy land, blame the parents. You guys keep repeating ad nauseam isreal receives rockets, isreal has the right to defend themselves like a broken record, but did you ever took 2 and a half second to think that palestinians have a right to resist against the occupier, against the illegal settlements?? NO, you only want to see one side, because of your built in feature "Hate arabs/muslims" which clouds your judgement on this conflict. When you will come to grips with this realisation, you may start to understand something. By the way, tell me how many isreali kids died exactly and how many palestinians died on the other side. I will give you a hint, the ratio is about 1 to 23

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 13:09

      truthseeker, if you really seek the truth go read that: THREE HUNDRED PALESTINIANS CHILDREN MURDERED IN A TERRORIST ATTACK FROM ISREAL!!! "Terror" works both ways, the palestinians were truly terrorised when planes were dropping bombs on their houses and killing them, it will take years of psychological follow up to be able to live normally after such trauma

  • Ross - 2011-06-28 09:22

    Shitstirrers, torpedo them.

  • henry1234 - 2011-06-28 09:27

    It's time Israel taught these terrorists a lesson!!!

      Realist - 2011-06-28 09:35

      Why woudl they teach themselves a lesson??? Brainiac

      henry1234 - 2011-06-28 09:43

      Apparantly this Realist is a serious racist! I am not Jewish! I am a Christian who beleives in the truth and will not fall for your propaganda like all your terrorist brothers.Christian people want the truth not lies and hatred!

      Realist - 2011-06-28 09:49

      You contradict yourself Henry... You want teh truth, but when you hear it you deny you really think they are on your side? They designed be their b@#he$...and a racist is far from what I am, I dont hate teh jewish race, I respect what they believe, I hate the way they act, teh way they behave, and hurt innocent people, and imprison...actually, wait, why bother...we know where the truth will get us

      Matt - 2011-06-28 09:59

      @ henry1234 - going by some of Realist's statements, he'd have been jailed if he had lived in Europe

      Paco7 - 2011-06-28 10:04

      it's time u took a rocket up your *ss

      Romans8 - 2011-06-28 10:11

      Realist - Why hate the way they act when they are defending themselves against evil people who are the likes of you!!! They have a right to the land the Palestinians don't. When the land was given back to the Jews by a unanimous vote of the United Nations in 1948, there were very few Arabs in the region and it was a waste land. When the Jews started to work the land and get reward from it Arab workers came there for work and not long after started to claim that they were Palestinians, which they really aren't. VIVA ISRAEL!!!!

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 12:50

      Jeez, henry, ever tought of joining alqeada, they probably like extremist like you.

  • Jaimo - 2011-06-28 09:30

    Free Gaza? - resettle them to where they came from (Egypt/Syria/Jordan) at Britain's expense. The whole of Israel for all the Jews!

      Paco7 - 2011-06-28 09:36

      @ Realtit. Doos!

      Paco7 - 2011-06-28 10:04

      not for long,the muslims are taking over

  • Matt - 2011-06-28 09:46

    Not to cause trouble or troll... but I have a question to the Jews. What does the Talmud mean in your lives? I understand it's an important part of Judaism but I don't know anyone who reads it...

      TruthSeeker - 2011-06-28 09:55

      If that is the case, what about the Q'uran? There is no mention of Jerusalem in the entire book - no once. The Bible is replete with mention of Jerusalem, both in historical terms and prophetic terms. What do the Arab states that surround Israel want to take over Jerusalem for? Can't the 21 Muslim states leave that small piece of land, smaller than the Kruger Park, for the Jews?

      Matt - 2011-06-28 10:15

      Thanks for that but in this post I asked purely out of desire to learn, what the Talmud signifies in Judaism, as I know it exists but don't know any Jews who read it

      Matt - 2011-06-28 11:27

      I asked an honest question but all I get is thumbs-down... I'd hate to have to refer to Wikipedia for info ;-) BTW, if you see what the Talmud actually asks of its readers... 100% OMW... I doubt most Jews even know of the scary things that are in there

      Zanu - 2011-06-28 12:43

      go ask a raabi...

      Matt - 2011-06-28 12:58

      @ zanu - apparently I'm worthy of death for even asking... In Sanhedrin (59a) it says: "Rabbi Jochanan says: A Goi who pries into the Law is guilty to death." Check out: There is an even worse issue with the Talmud, yes even worse than what is on this link... but nobody would believe me if I said what it is, and probably it would get moderated!

      Zanu - 2011-06-28 15:33

      Matt, you can take you split personality to the rabbi and ask yourself... how am i supposed to know. you keep asking as if im jewish. I have lived in the middle east for over 8 years but i don’t have in depth knowledge into the judaism.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 15:42

      @ Zanu - I was asking anyone who could read, not you personally :-) and what split personality? I'm a Christian, never professed to be otherwise - slightly more sympathetic to the Jews but say that both are doing wrong things - and asking the honest question about the Talmud. After all, how can one party accuse the other of wanting to kill each other if both have holy scriptures commanding the murder of the other?

  • CPII - 2011-06-28 09:48

    Why no confrontation? It is confrontation they seek! Bomb them. Blow them out of the water Israel. When in doubt, shoot to kill!

      Irené - 2011-06-28 10:26

      @ realist it shakes me to my shoes when I think how blood thirsty most people are on this forum- it's like the bloody old testament all over again- I just 'pray' some of these fools will realise that there are many respectable jewish scholars, professionals etc who are opposed to Israels occupation- this has nothing to do with religion- but basic human rights. This whole holy land nonsense needs to stop- if there was an omnipotent creator- he would make all places equal and not only favor one small creed of humans. I cant believe they think their loving god would allow all the atrocities in history- yet certainly care where the jews set up home- bloody irrational cooks.

      CPII - 2011-06-28 10:35

      Realist, in you learnered opinion, what do you think Hamas will do to Israel hhhmmm.…that is now, in the case Israel sits back and do nothing?

      Paco7 - 2011-06-28 10:45

      they are trying to receive medication and food, poepol

      CPII - 2011-06-28 10:59

      Like my ass they will…poepol

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 12:54

      And yet another braindead extremist advocating killing people bearing asprin and band aid. Am sure he would have like to blow out the red cross in this article too...

      Matt - 2011-06-28 16:04

      @ CPII - I don't agree, unless they were actually firing on Israel... still, does raise a point though - let's say Israel did blow them out of the water, what would be the consequences? I don't see any Western countries boycotting Israel (and if they did, what would be their desierd end-result) and the Arabs hate them already...

      montecristo - 2011-06-29 19:43

      Irene, stop living in denial. Why don't just come out and admit you're an out and out hater of the Jews. Whenever there's any article on the Middle East, you're there with your thinly disguised anti-semtic comments.

  • battle4truth - 2011-06-28 10:11

    Please watch this youtube clip and you be the judge. Let the facts speak.

      TruthSeeker - 2011-06-28 10:34

      Great meaning in that song. My challenge is for every disbeliever is to go and research the facts. Look at the United Nations Security Council resolutions against the so called freedom fighters - there isn't one. 66% of their resolutions are against a country that weighs in at 0.1% of the land mass. Read some of the history of the region, from both perspectives. It will amaze you!

  • Cornix - 2011-06-28 10:49

    Jews in Gaza were forcibly removed from their homes and their land … even the dead Jews were forcibly dug up from their graves and removed from Gaza. This ‘uprooting’ of the Jews from Gaza which the whole world watched on the news may be a much more ‘significant’ prophetic event than most realize, and the Bible warns there is more to come . . . “For Gaza shall be forsaken, And Ashkelon desolate; They shall drive out Ashdod at noonday, And Ekron shall be uprooted. Woe to the inhabitants of the seacoast, The nation of the Cherethites! The word of the Lord is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines (Palestinians): “I (God) will destroy you So there shall be no inhabitant.” (All ‘Palestinians’ and their allies should take note …)

      Jaimo - 2011-06-28 11:21

      Wow! that settles it I salute the Word of God!!! Pity anti-semites and Hitlerites

      TheWally - 2011-06-28 11:35

      funny, you provide no proof at all, typical Zionist strategy.. but.. if what you say is true, then according to this article and video clip you are a hypocrite because this is exactly what the zionist are doing in your holy lands:

      Cornix - 2011-06-28 11:35

      Yeah, they will tremble of fear if they know what is coming for them. Alas, they don't believe in the Bible so they don't realise it. It's inevitable. God has spoken.

      Paco7 - 2011-06-28 12:05

      did u get this from your kids bedtime story book ? i'm sure he must have been so fascinated when you read him this mumbo jumbo

      Cornix - 2011-06-28 12:16

      TheWally, what more of a proof do we need than fulfilled prophecy. God uses prophecy to prove He is who He says He is. I am not blind to the bad things people do. Every human being has freedom of choice to do whatever he/she likes, whether good or bad, just as everyone is responsible for his/her own deeds. Everyone will be judged. Yes, this applies to Jews as well. Also, everyone has to choose on whose side he/she will be.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 12:17

      Add some verses from the NT and I may agree...

      TheWally - 2011-06-28 12:23

      thats correct, Muslims only believe in the Authentic Bible and Authentic Torah as it was with the Prophets Moses and Prophet Jesus (peace be apon them both)

      TheWally - 2011-06-28 12:39

      So the according to your logic, the holocaust,Apartheid etc was God showing who he really is?... or was it people showing us how evil they can be? This was Gods test to see how Humanity stands up to the oppression of rulers over the poor and needy. join your brothers in spirit at least on that ship cornix. Those Priests, Rabbi's and holocaust survivors that will be on that ship aswell will need all the support they can get. The world will be watching even closer this time

      Cornix - 2011-06-28 12:45

      Matt, so you don't agree? Are you looking for verses about Gaza specifically or Israel?

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 12:58

      Canaan, land of the Philistines (Palestinians)!!! Okkk, that settles it. If the bible says it belongs to the palestinians then it proves isreal has stolen the land LOL

      Matt - 2011-06-28 13:26

      @ Cornix - why didn't God just give them the land back quickly if they were still the chosen race - in the OT, when they were, He always did! The repeat cycle that covers half the OT is: Jews reject God - God delivers them to slavery - next-generation Jews repent and return to God - God delivers them from slavery - the generation after has it good and rejects God - God delivers them to slavery - next generation returns to God... etc etc. At one stage it stopped (since Israel was taken over by Babylon). Did God not also get angry and contemplate wiping us out again, but lamented and decided to save them instead? And what role did Jesus play in this? Jesus came, Jesus saved, those who believe upon HIM shall go to Heaven, where the New Jerusalem is (tog?)...

      Cornix - 2011-06-28 14:59

      TheWally, the Holocaust, Apartheid, etc. is certainly not God's doing, but God understands the complex human nature and He is able to predict the future, able to predict what choices people will make, etc. Pierreedge, the land of the Philistines originally referred to a small coastal territory corresponding to what is today Gaza, so it's a geographical reference. But we all know who is occupying Gaza now, don't we? Matt, I'm not sure if I understand your comment correctly. It seems that you don't understand the concept of "chosen people". God made a covenant with the Jews, which He will not break. He is very patient by the looks of things, having to go through all those repeat cycles.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 15:24

      @ Cornix - so who are God's chosen people then? Why would God give Israel to the Jews when they reject Him? When the Messiah came and fulfilled heaps of OT/Torah prophecies, they rejected Him? Even 2000 years later they still do? Who exactly is God going to return Israel to - and why has He waited 2500 years and still the land is not fully theirs? I understand about patience, but really, why would God deliver Israel to the Jews if the Jews don't even accept His Son?

      TheWally - 2011-06-28 16:02

      @Cornix: Justifying actions by GOD only when it suits you is an illogical way of thinking

      Matt - 2011-06-29 12:18

      @ Cire - what part of the drivel? And prove it wrong? If you do, then I could recant :-)

  • astrix1 - 2011-06-28 13:07

    Realist, Matt, Paco... your comments gave me a good laugh, better than Brittish commedy. Realist my question to you.. what has Israel done other than defending themselves against the Arab world and their battle for survival. Had they not, would there stiil be an Israel? If the Arabs stop their K%K i am sure Israel will let them be. Israel has never "attacked" them without provocation in the past? They are merely using extreme measures to force Palestina to stop their acts of voilence against them. That is harsh (naval baracade) but at least Israel are not using their milatary capabilities to rid themselves from the Palestinian problem for once and forever. They are defending themselves with good right.

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 13:29

      what on earth are you talking about, am sure you were one of the people who generalised calling all black people terrorists during appartheid here. The last armed conflict with the arab league was over 40 years ago, today it's between palestinians, who happen to be arb, but still human beings with 2 arms and 2 legs and the isrealis and their disrespect of all UN resolutions (lifting illegal blockade, stopping illegal settlements, stopping territories occupation etc etc...) If there is "K%K" as you call it, it comes from the simple fact that 60 years ago, some people decided that jews can come and establish a state there, and told the local to clear off, hundreds of thousands of jews who never set foot in their life in isreal came from all over the world and took the houses and land of the people who were born there, so the K%K is the messed up establishment of this situation, and the K%K cannot be fixed until borders are respected, land is not occupied and illegal settlements are stopped and the illegal blockade on gaza is lifted, you seem to know not a lot, it is not just a naval barricade, but a COMPLETE BLOCKADE ON THE GAZA strip. Your comment doesnt give a good laugh, it is rather demoralizing to see people like you thinking you know the whole thing while you know jack about the history and circumstances leading to this conflict.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 14:12

      At what point did I make you laugh... I have nothing against a Jewish state but why did they feel the need to start occupying more land just a few years after they felt first-hand what persecution is like? Israel defending its borders is understandable but why go occupy territory?

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 14:28

      Matt, it's not even about defending borders now, let's get real. They got very, let's say elastic borders. One day they build a new settlements somewhere, and presto subito, they declare that this is a new border to defend. The palestinians get there and say WTF, this was ours yesterday and try to take it back, at that point israel bombs the hell out of them and turn an angel like face to the world and says "me do nothing, Hey look they attacked me, i am just defending my borders". When investigation goes on the settlements, they send you a page of the torah or some old parchment saying "look, this is a title deed from god, you dont want to mess with that" Come on, defending themselves??? that's a joke

      Matt - 2011-06-28 15:03

      @ pierreedge - so what would your solution be? If, somehow, all Jews vacated Israel to make the Palestinians happy, what then? Would SA embrace an influx of Jews who used to live here or have family here? I think not - Malema would have a hissy-fit over a mass-influx of whites to start with! Would Russia, well-known to be racist, embrace a million Jews who used to come from there? I think not. Or should we just kill the whole lot of them and cry Allah Akbar? Hmm, I sense this would be the solution that many pro-Palestinians/anti-Israelis are angling for... in which case, why should anybody support their viewpoint?

      TheWally - 2011-06-28 15:24

      @pierreedge: thats brilliant, well said, so true aswell, hit the nail on the head

      Matt - 2011-06-28 15:46

      @ pierreedge - just asking - how were the Palestinians when it was a British territory? I appreciate there wasn't really such a thing as Amnesty International back then, but to my knowledge they weren't trying to blow up the Poms to claim their 72 virgins... I could be wrong, but I don't recall such stories in history Also, I used to have some old Palestinian coins from the UK days - they used English, Arabic and Hebrew on their money - so would it be right to say there were Jews there even well before 1948?

      pierreedge - 2011-06-28 16:01

      For the time being, the solution chosen by isreal is to kill the whole lot of them little by little (a bombing here, a blockade there with diesease and what goes with and cry yahve or whatever they cry and this is the solution that many pro-isrealis/anti-anti palestinians are angling for even here... in which case, why should anybody support their viewpoint i return the question to you? Frankly i dont have a stake in this, and wouldnt if their mess didnt perspire through our lives everywhere in the world, like the restrictions while flying, the safety paranoia that engulfed the world in the last ten years etc etc. As for a solution, after i dont know how many roadmaps written by very clever people who knew the situation inside out failed, i dont think i'm in a position to draw a solution. End of the day, the contention points are known, illegal settlements, illegal blockade and occupied territories, i mean just this term "occupied" is unbeleivable, after decades and decades, isreal still "occupies"... if those points are cleared, then they will have a good base to start i think, with the 67 borders of course as agreed initially, and which isreal chose to conveniently forget and play the elastic with their borders

      TheWally - 2011-06-28 16:08

      @Matt: if you want to know how it was under Muslim rule then you need not look further than a man Muslims called Salahudien Ayubie. He was respected even amoung the Crusaders who he conquered. Do some research about this man as its well documented in the archives of history as fact

      Matt - 2011-06-28 16:46

      @ TheWally - yup, I just learned that his name was Saladin (but I had a UK history book back in the day) :-) I know about the guy

  • GT - 2011-06-28 13:17

    As long as religion and religious people are involved in any decision in the Middle East, it will remain the rat-arse of the world hopes and dreams. Banish the religious to teh desert and leave the negotiations to rational people. Just the posts above show how intolerant, blinkered and dangerous religiously politics is. As it stands, the 2 sides deserve eachother, just a pity they cannot keep it to themselves.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 14:10

      Alternatively, we can all become atheists, not worry about religion... and look to the likes of Stalin and Mao Tse Tung to see what a liberal, free and bloodless regime would be like... er, between them some 130-170 million people died ?!

  • Zanu - 2011-06-28 14:21

    O sorry I forgot... you people think of cartoons as a declaration of war. No value for life, but a scared annoyance to cartoons. Well the Danish embassy is already burned so relax. The best way too convey ones thinking is through political cartoons. And the ones on that page are all but true. Renounce terror or face the consequences. Its as easy as that.

      Matt - 2011-06-28 16:06

      Or what about the Koran burning stunt - one guy actually did it - in Afghanistan nobody knew about it, but Hamid Karzai went on state TV to tell the nation to be outraged and hence they went on a rampage in Afghanistan, killing people...

  • Zanu - 2011-06-28 14:52

    The world is a fickle place -- Anti-Semitism hasn't gone away; it's merely morphed into hatred of Israel. The Jews will never be "loved". The world will love the Jews greatly were they to roll over and die, and that is not going to happen. I'm with Machiavelli -- it is far, far better to be feared than to be loved.

  • Zanu - 2011-06-28 14:52

    If the Jews had not fought back against the Arab armies and had been destroyed in 1948, they would have received the most beautiful eulogies throughout the world. Instead, they chose to stand their ground and defend themselves. And in winning, they received the world's condemnation. Golda Meir said she would take the condemnation over the eulogies.

  • Zanu - 2011-06-28 14:53

    If the Palestinians stop terror and vote to live in peace with Israel, then all these pathetic propaganda will disappear into history... I’m glad most normal people are able to see above all this blind hate towards Israel. If they truly wanted peace, they would have had peace generations ago. However, their hate blinds them, and their religion proclaims them to fight till the end, and their leaders ride the gravy train to Swiss bank accounts on their own people's shoulders…and Israel will continue to defend herself through all this.

  • Zanu - 2011-06-28 15:17

    Peace could have been achieved several times in the last 60 odd years, if it was not ruined by a small number of bad leaders (Arafat) that rode the gravy train while their people suffered on Israel's self defence policy. Today Hamas/ PA are so financially rich that any advances in peace with Israel would mean an end to financial support from Iran / US, EU, World bank; respectively.

  • Zanu - 2011-06-28 15:18

    There is no place in the world where racism... is as widespread and institutionalized as in the Arab world; against Jews, Gays, women and Christian minorities.

  • Cire - 2011-06-28 17:01

    Israel cannot be expected to be accept arms smuggling, even if it is hidden behind lots of useful idiots.

  • Cire - 2011-06-29 10:00

    Israel cannot be expected to allow arms smuggling behind the human shield of useful idiots.

  • montecristo - 2011-06-29 11:09

    Realist, your avatar is sick. I don't think you'll be on this forum for long - in fact, I think you could even be liable for a hate crime/hate speech just for displaying that on this forum. And News24 better its complicity in allowing you to register such a clear and depraved symbol of hate and hurt.

  • montecristo - 2011-06-29 12:05

    Like I said before news24 removed my comment, I find Realists avatar offensive and in the poorest of taste. It amounts to hate speech/crime and news24's complicity in allowing him to register such strong symbol of anti-semitism is to be questioned.

      Matt - 2011-06-29 12:22

      @ Montecristo - oh I agree, but I doubt you'll get your way. It also happens to be the symbol of a bunch of alien-loonies called the Raëlists, so to ban the symbol would also amount to discrimination... I know, it's dumb... Although check the posts above - Realist says he chose the symbol on purpose before ever getting to hear about the existence of Raëlists - though his alias smacks of either total coincidence, or plenty intent... but the fact he chose the symbol on purpose to upset Jews - News24, grow a pair!!!

      Paco7 - 2011-06-29 15:44

      but u didn't have a problem when some Danish pig was drawing cartoons of a holy prophet, u two faced hypocrit

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