News24

Muslim girl must do swim class - German court

2012-09-29 08:39

Berlin - A German court on Friday refused to allow a Muslim student to skip swimming lessons after she said she was uncomfortable being so close to bare-chested boys.

The 12-year-old, originally from Morocco but going to school in the southern German city of Frankfurt, had refused to take part in swimming lessons and had been marked down accordingly.

She filed to be given the right to skip the classes, her lawyer arguing that according to the Qu'ran, she was not only forbidden from showing herself to boys but also from seeing the topless boys.

An administrative court in Kassel, western Germany, rejected her application.

It said in its ruling that she could wear the full-body swimsuit, known as the "burkini" already used by several girls at her school, which would be enough to guarantee her religious freedom.

The family had chosen to live in Germany where mixed swimming classes were the norm, the court pointed out.

One of the aims of the school system was to promote integration and tolerance, the court added, citing a ruling by Germany's constitutional court.

The applicant would have to put up with the sight of her classmates in their swimming costumes, the court said.

Comments
  • Peter - 2012-09-29 08:50

    Why take your children to live in a western country if you do not agree to abide by its rules and culture?

      fussed.anderson - 2012-09-29 09:14

      My house, my rules or stay away

      colin.murphy.37604 - 2012-09-29 09:22

      Ridwan, when Westerners go to the middle East they have to cover up, not drink alchohol, and tone themselves down in public, all to appease the people who live in those countries. If the family don't like the way Germans live, they're more than welcome to move back to Morocco. If they don't want to assimilate themselves with German culture then they should get deported. Its ignorant attitudes like yours that polarise religion. Germany is a traditionally Christian country, and yet Muslims expect to move there and expect Germans to tolerate them. Germany has the right to defend its heritage, and promote German culture. If she doesn't like swimming in front of boys then tough. Would she prefer Saudi or Iran where she can get married off to an old man or never get a decent education all because she was born female. Get your heads out of your butts and stop living in the middle ages, if muslims spent half the time they spend moaning about being persecuted and instead try better the world they live in I'm sure it would be a better place for all. Your prophet taught tolerance but it just seems that everyone must tolerate you, yet you can't tolerate anyone else...

      MagdaKus - 2012-09-29 09:23

      Is the Western culture not supposed to be tolerant? As in everyone should be able to follow their conscience- and not have others' norms imposed on them? Look- I am not wholesale endorsing every radical interpretation of Islam out there- but I think the courts are being unreasonable here. Even though I think the girls views (or her parents') are over the top- but- it is her right to hold them.

      christian.denyschen - 2012-09-29 09:39

      Peter isn't your rights and freedom to believe in anything you want to part of western culture surly if she is uncomfortable with a situation she has the right to not take part in it. Imagine your daughter had to experience what she has to go thru would you not want her rights protected.

      sam.barker.7796 - 2012-09-29 09:57

      There's something that hasn't been made clear in this article, namely that in most European countries, it is compulsory for kids to be taught how to swim. In some places they actually get marks for swimming lessons and abilities. It's not just for fun, it's designed to save lives, and it does so very successfully. So for this girl to be indulged by not having to do swimming, they would have to create a special marking system for her. If the other muslim girls at the school have found a workaround by wearing a burkini, then presumably this is acceptable, and this girl should indeed get over herself and make the effort to fit in with her new society. Merely 'feeling uncomfortable' isn't too much of an excuse, really.

      christian.denyschen - 2012-09-29 10:14

      Can't believe the level of intolerance on the forum today.

      marc.hugo.75 - 2012-09-29 10:21

      When in Germany, you do as the Germans do. You and you kith fouled the nest of your birth with your values and standards, then you want to come to the Fatherland and foul that too. No. You melt into the pot. If you cherish the ways of your homeland so much, you're welcome to go back to it. This has absolutely nothing to do with religious freedom. And Ridwan, it is indeed you that does not understand.

      hermann.hanekom - 2012-09-29 11:01

      @Christian. Yes my man, the whole world was tolerant and then Hitler's armies started marching. Tolerance also has its limits.

      Alice - 2012-09-29 12:35

      Omo9ija you are OLOFO Yuroba man who always bashes South Africa as if Nigeria is a better country. We all know very well that ur Hausa muslims are the least tolerant ppl in this world. Shut up!

      mike.boylen - 2012-09-29 20:26

      @omonaija. Just want to correct you on one point. I went to school in the UK in the 60s and swimming lessons were compulsory back then. They have been ever since, as they are in many European countries. It's considered an essential life preserving/saving skill.

      mattewis.kat - 2012-09-30 11:22

      Because you & I are infidels, Peter, and of lesser value than them being the "true believers"! Have you ever tried being a Christian missionary in Saudi Arabia? That's right, you haven't because you wouldn't be alive to comment here if you had! The western governments just REFUSE to accept that multiculturalism is fundamentally impossible, but still they keep going! Oh, well! If it's war they want, it's war they'll get!

      larissa.goosen - 2012-09-30 17:30

      Germany is NOT a Muslim country!

      christelle.james.7 - 2012-09-30 20:56

      Christian, I beg to differ with you. If you move to a country of your own choice you follow their rules and regulations. If you don't like it, go back to where you feel comfortable. The Germans do not have to adapt to her, she has to adapt to them. And that counts for every single person moving to a country with different culture, religion, race, creed.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 09:34

      HAHAHA!...this is so funny, most of the people commenting here say that if they dont like it, they should leave Germany are actually the ones complaining about the SA government....HAHAHAHA.....typical idiots, talk about cup half empty/half full.....so all y'all complaining about Zuma, ANC....why dont you follow your own advice and leave SA then? idiots.....its not as easy as that, tolerance goes both ways, all religions, cultures need to be respected, that's democracy - Of course Saudi is also incorrect in its tolerance of non-muslims, so does that justify the German's treatment of this girl, How old are you guys, that is so childish to say something like that....Germany should show that its better than Saudi, and not follow the same ideas....

      rowen.loretz - 2012-10-01 10:31

      yeah, if westerners must abide by rules when they are in Arab countries, so must Muslims when they are in western countries. If i steal in i could get my hands chopped off and my girlfriend cant wear a miniskirt. If she dont want to swim , then bugger off out of Germany.

      Jo.Davies123 - 2012-10-01 12:20

      Facts - Germany has a majority Christians, but there is no state church. Since 1949 the German constitution guarantees freedom of faith and religion. It also states that no one may be discriminated against due to their faith or religious opinions. A state church does not exist in Germany. I assume that this was considered by the family when they moved there, possibly not considering everything, such as they would have to fight for some of these "rights"

      mike.boylen - 2012-10-01 12:30

      @Jo.Davies123. As I understand it the German court was making a ruling on a girl taking compulsory swimming lessons. The girl brought religion into the case, not the court.

      sauvignon.blanc.31 - 2012-10-01 13:34

      have any of you any clue about other religious extremeists? such as orthodox jews, and crazy fundamentalist american christians? they are also violent and unreasonable ,whether religious american jews in the west bank, right wing american christians, or the taliban, they are all nutty extremists in my eyes, equally capable of stupidity. while there may be some muslim terrorists, trust me when i say religious jews are easily as nuts, and religious christians and jews have both the american army and israeli army acting on their behalf,,,, so which religion is the 'violent uncivilized'one at the end of the day? dont let the media shape your thoughts and opinions, think for yourselves and we will live in a much more tolerant world

      jaba.kov - 2012-10-01 14:33

      sauvignon blanc you are an idiot

  • bennie.kruger.5 - 2012-09-29 08:53

    Take note brothers , this is how you lead, and make decissions.

      polybius.slenderman - 2012-09-29 20:40

      Every time a Muslim decides to call someone racist for opposing their belief system, an angel dies.

      maureen.churchill.9 - 2012-10-01 11:27

      If she doesn't want to swim leave her alone. She has her beliefs, accept those and move on.

      psalm.proverb.3 - 2012-10-02 12:27

      @ Mapepaki Your view would result in a pathetic situation in schools. Her beliefs cannot automatically trump a school curriculum. Consider that there are Muslims who deem teaching various Biology topics "haram" - even at high school level. Shall their children be exempt from the Biology curriculum due to their beliefs? If a child follows a religion that says the earth is flat, must s/he be allowed to skip Geography as its teachings may offend his/her beliefs? Where do you draw the line? The fact is that swimming is part of this German school's curriculum. The school has permitted her to skip swimming and be marked down for it. So, she was not even forced to swim. She was forced to live with the consequences of her beliefs - like any other German child who skips swimming. The problem is that this child expects (or rather, her parents expect her) to suffer no consequences for skipping part of the curriculum. That's not on in this case.

  • Stefan Erasmus - 2012-09-29 09:05

    Great Germany! Great!

      susanna.smit.7 - 2012-09-29 18:47

      Yep, Europe killed of over 6 million Jews and replaced them with over 20 million Muslims....instead of thanking the school system for forcing her to learn how to swim, which may one day, have saved her life, I guess she will just shut her eyes with her hands and drown when the ship goes down...

      colin.murphy.37604 - 2012-09-30 12:41

      Yeah Boom Afridi, they "slaughtered" as in past tense... When last did you hear of Christians killing people over a movie, or Jews or Hindu's... Just goes to show how radical all muslims are and how intolerant they are. All the muslims on this blog saying that the girl is allowed to have her views, yet noboy else is allowed to have their own views about muslims...

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-30 14:01

      @colin. i heard of a christian guy in the USA on a shooting spee at a batman movie. what do you even know about islam? you sit in south africa haven't experienced any culture except what you\ve seen on tv. you can simple generalize. that makes you a bigot. i don't go around genralising that christians are little boy lovers (ie. catholics) now do i? i mean you come to sa, you complain day in day out about the anc, malema, bee, employment equity. it's your right to want freedom from that. why do have such filthy hearts that you can't allow an innocent 12 year old to have her right to believe in what she wants?

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-30 14:11

      also i heard of christians that started a thing called apartheid. i mean what a sick belief. is that what christainity taught you? apartheid. islam always taught equality and peace. so speak for yourself next time and learn to turn the other cheek the way our prophet jesus taught you. note how we never insult a prophet of another religion regardless. do not generalize.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-30 14:25

      here is a quote from mel gibson: "F**king Jews...the Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world." they called him a bigot. are you not a bigot yourself colin?

      JManAtheoi - 2012-10-01 08:56

      I want to see how they tolerate it when a german girl goes topless on a beach in a muslim country....

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 09:37

      Uh, Quick Quirky...you know majority of any terrorist attack performed by a Muslim, is ALSO not in the name of Islam? Backward mentality.....

      jaba.kov - 2012-10-01 10:57

      agree with susanna "I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered a terrible truth; Europe died in Auschwitz . . . We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world. The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned. And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty, due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride."

      jaba.kov - 2012-10-01 10:58

      "They have blown up our trains and turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime. Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts. And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition. We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs."

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:59

      Ah, but you just confirmed my comment.You said "Misguided"?...so is it in the name of religion when they are msiguided?

      jaba.kov - 2012-10-01 10:59

      Recently, the UK debated whether to remove The Holocaust from its school curriculum because it ‘offends’ the Muslim population which claims it never occurred. It is not removed as yet. However, this is a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving into it.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 11:02

      And please show where in the Koran it says so,Oh and im not some idiot born yesterday, and have only read the bible or Koran yesterday, so dont pull lines out of context...causei can show you may a lines from the bible and Koran, which shows the contrary to what you are saying - i.e Love and tolerance for all others. Why do most Imams state that terrorist attacks are not Islam (so dont lie and talk about a few Imams talking about jihad)....majority if Imams are against it...

      sauvignon.blanc.31 - 2012-10-01 12:10

      JAba kov you are an idiot

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-02 08:28

      Thank You Quick Quirky. You are finally seeing that its not the religion, but the misguided individuals. That is true, and can be said for all religions, both the Jewish religion & christian religions (mention is made in the comments here) - It is a difficult task faced by all religious leaders, especially when these misguided individuals have heavy military backing.

  • Jacob Zooma - 2012-09-29 09:09

    When in Rome.

      fussed.anderson - 2012-09-29 09:25

      Try play cricket with rugby rules.

      Stormkaap - 2012-09-29 11:06

      When in rome, get into a roman bath with men!

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 09:38

      Zooma....Arent you the guy that always complains about Zuma and the ANC? Um, so why dont you follow your own advice "When in Rome"....so when in SA, just be happy with the governement and dont complain, Ok?....

      ingrid.webbe - 2012-10-01 10:39

      Jennifer.bosman.9 :- Everyone who immigrates to SA knows they have to put up with the ANC and Zuma. Those people immigrated to Germany and knew what the rules were but chose to move there. All citizens of a democracy have the right to complain about a govt is they are not serving the needs of the country as a whole. And sure enough, many people don't choose to live in Zuma-land so they emigrate. If these muslims in Germany don't wish to live by the rules of their adopted country, they should go back to a muslim country. You can't go to other countries and try and change their rules! Can you imagine living in any place where the government is expected to change the rules for every single person because of their beliefs that they carry from another country and culture? If you were a nudist from some small island in the back of beyond, would that give you the right to immigrate to another country and insist that your culture allows you to walk around in the nude????

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 11:05

      @QuickQuirky. How slow are you?? You just said in most of your comments, their should be silent acceptance cause she is in Germany??? (and essentially does not belong there)

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 11:07

      Ingrid. You are missing the point of democracy and freedom of religion and speech. As long as it does not infringe on other people's rights - Thats the important concept!.....everything you are saying does not count...as long as she does not infirnge on other's rights, why should they dissallow it?

      robert.schwegmann.7 - 2012-10-01 15:52

      @jennifer.bosman: What you fail to understand is that the majority of people complaining about South Africa are ACTUALLY South African born. Your argument is invalid in that respect. You move to a country, you abide by those rules. Nothing personal. The court said she could wear a 'burkini' worn by other muslim girls already. Why is it acceptable for them and not for her? There has to be some flexibility when you immigrate to a country and get looked after by that country. As has already been said, I doubt if the same flexibility will be afforded in Muslim majority countries to "Westerners".

      aidan.classe - 2012-10-01 15:55

      @Jennifer I think the question is why should someones religious belief give them special privileges?

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 18:13

      but still if a 12 year old is uncomfortable doing something, no matter how inconsistent that might be with regards to anybody's culture, she should not be forced into doing so with the threat of being marked down. remember people she is 12. if it was your daughter at school not wanting to participate in something she feels strongly about what would you do? would you force her? or try to reason with her teachers? it goes beyond the point of religion, it has more to do with a human right. seeing as how the majority of germans are now expert swimmers, there won't be any need for lifeguards now.

  • niel.phillips.7 - 2012-09-29 09:15

    sy's bang sy raak jags!

      henk63 - 2012-09-29 10:06

      Lekker straight nè! Miskien is dit die hele probleem met Moslems. Die aangesig van 'n stukkie vel maak hulle van hul kop af, daarom moet alles toegemaak word. Alles geoordeel is hulle dalk die perverte waarvan hulle almal anders beskuldig.

      Stormkaap - 2012-09-29 11:07

      Can see where his brains lie... below his waistline..

      jcoetzee1975 - 2012-09-30 07:14

      Jy wen !! hahaha

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 09:40

      This is the sort of mentality harboured by sick individuals, Niel you seriously need to seek psychological help.....

      natalie.kalamoudacos - 2012-10-02 13:14

      @niel - You are a disgusting, perverted pig. She is a CHILD! Shame on you and all your cronies who find your comment so amusing.

      natalie.kalamoudacos - 2012-10-03 13:09

      @quickquirky - this was a couple of days ago so don't know if you will see this. Mohammed and any other Muslim man taking a child bride is akin to paedophilia and are also disgusting perverted pigs!!! My comment had basically nothing to do with the article per say. It was niel's "she is scared she will become horny" comment that irked the hell out of me. She is a CHILD of 12 - my son is almost this age and my daughter nearly 10. If anyone referred to my children in this manner I don't know what I would do. Yes, niel was probably making a comment tongue in cheek comment - but I don't particularly find it amusing in anyway. But obviously his 154 thumb ups do, just hope none of them have got horny 12 year old daughters running around.

  • cry.mashiane - 2012-09-29 09:19

    Go back to morocco

      Armand - 2012-09-29 09:34

      Sabeer. Then go back to the Middle East and experience democracy and freedom there!

      morgaenart.farto - 2012-09-29 10:02

      Why do these Muslims come to the West anyway? They don't integrate into our societies. They should all bug-off to where they came from.

      derek.gunter.946 - 2012-09-29 10:31

      sabeer is a religious nut! Hahahaha! Come on man, get more angry! Show us your teeth! I go religion is stupid and you go.......

      marc.hugo.75 - 2012-09-29 10:44

      Ah Sabeer!! That was a bit slow, old fruit. You took an appalling 'sloth-like' 10 seconds to opt for that dependable old chestnut. You know the one I'm talking about eh, Saheer? Racism? It would be a bit of a pity to engage in this debate without bringing up that jolly old, hackneyed piece of dreck, "racism". Well, that's why we have that age-old idea, rather a good one incidentally, called "country". You might not know, but it is based on race, and predates even more fashionable concepts, such as "xenophobia". So, put all that in your hookah and smoke it. And don't forget, Emirates are running some killer specials. Sorry, I meant tempting specials.

      Stormkaap - 2012-09-29 11:08

      And Morgaen where should you go to ..

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 01:03

      no jonrogger, your west.first world countries are currently undergoing recessions and bankruptcy. not to mention they're all investing in our oil and real estate :)

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 12:41

      @werner, another atheist. i won't even bother..

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 14:23

      okay since you enjoy stereotyping, generalizing, intolerance and a hate for islam, i will now look at all white people as racists/bigots still longing for apartheid. you're white right? so now you are a racist according your own level of thinking. dislike this if it's true :) and also come clean, nobody here knows you so please admit it you don't like blacks.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 14:25

      and another thing, you will never keep the muslims out of western countries. so if you don't like it, then YOU leave.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 14:43

      what's the matter you don't deny it? you are a racist? im happy and proud to be muslim just like the billions out there :) it's people like you that attempt to vilify a great religion without any correct understanding. and it goes to show the type of character you are. you bring about the topic of militants, extremism and violence over a 12 year old girl not wanting to swim. it shows why sa is a nation born from apartheid, with people like you around i'm not suprised. as i said you give white people a bad name. 95% of white people i know are nothing like you :)

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 15:00

      @jonrogger, agree to disagree. have a nice day.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 18:43

      i'm not attacking you personally, if you feel that i am, then i apologise. all im trying is to point out your religious intolerance for another's beliefs which in my opinion i have done so successfully. why can't let us be and believe as we feel. muslims have no need to be liberated by western society neither do we we want to conform to your ideologies. just let us be.

  • samgaf - 2012-09-29 09:24

    "Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile." [Kurt Vonnegut]

  • MerryMartin - 2012-09-29 09:25

    Whilst I have some sympathy with the girl (she is only trying to stay true to her faith), she does still have a choice.... she can swim in the burkini (or whatever) or refuse to swim at all and be marked down. (Fair choice. It is not as if she is being forced to swim.) I do not however have any sympathy for the parents (who are clearly behind all this) - if you don't like the rules of a country, don't move there. I would not move to a Muslim country as I know I could not abide by their rules.

      susanna.smit.7 - 2012-09-29 18:53

      Couldn't agree more. No normal 12-year old gets distracted by other bare-chested 12-year olds. These Muslims are oversexed.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 09:42

      Ok Susanna. No wonder, the majority of child molesters and rapists in the world today, are not muslim.....gotta love this site, where intelligent, informed people make comments....

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-02 09:05

      Here we go.Ask and you shall receive. I will use the most well known site. LINK1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics Add the muslim and non-muslim countries. (or do you need me to show you how) LINK2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse Quickquirky, do not make a fool of yourself, more than you already are.

      susanna.smit.7 - 2012-10-02 21:07

      @Jennifer, I work with plenty of Indonesian colleagues and some of them got married as young as 13. Sex with minors is decriminalized in this Muslim society due to marital law and it does not mean these children do not get raped or molested.

  • hudayfah.newman - 2012-09-29 09:33

    Lol oh dear. They say islam is intolerant and takes away your freedom of choice. People in glass houses comes to mind.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 09:45

      Ok, so because Middle East does that, Germany should also do something similar? very grown up of you guys!....kids....

  • keba.mothoagae - 2012-09-29 09:35

    You will do as you are told or you will go back to a place where freedom is relatively unheard of.\r\n\r\nTo the people of Islam, we will tiptoe around your religion for peace's sake but you will fall in line when it comes to the laws of sovereign nation elsewhere. Your choice.

      sabeer.mahomed.3 - 2012-09-29 09:41

      I pity u bro

      makarapakaplan - 2012-09-29 09:41

      You are right!!! Agree 100%

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 16:55

      what do you tip toe around? are you in any way threatened by islam in south africa? why are you scared?

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-30 13:52

      no, you leave us alone to do as we please. you leave bee, the anc and everything else in this country that you don't like. fit in or get lost yourself. take a drive past midrand, houghton have a look at the mosques springing up and let your heart bleed inside.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-30 15:23

      quirky another athiest :( i give up on you. please move to germany.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-30 16:38

      @jonroegger.. yes disrepect my religion some more. your ignorant comment will not stop islam spreading. oh and paint enough pictures too, god will deal with you :)

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-30 16:38

      @quirk yes, germany should learn from sa.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 01:04

      well there was a peaceful march to the US embassy this past Friday i believe in pretoria. so your gripe lies with what?

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 09:50

      Ok thats why Quick Qiurky is dropping all these stupid comments, he's an atheist. Boom, dont waste your time. Rather debate with an intelligent individual that has objective views on religion...

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 09:52

      David, david, how misguided you are....down with halaal, and alot of food products will not be bought. You remember the survey conducted a couple of years ago, which indicated that Muslims statistically spend more money on food - go ahead try and pass your thoughts on to food companies, you'll be laughed at!

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 11:15

      thank you jennifer :) quirky probably doesn't have any muslim friends.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 14:28

      gee whiz i don't recall anybody getting killed on that day. you give a bad name to all white people and all your fellow atheists. you have a fight to pick over a 12 year old child. disgusting.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-02 09:23

      Quickquirky. Your first mistake is mentioning scientists. Its a well known fact that scientists can never agree. So quoting scientists to your average joe, might work, but not with me. BUT how intelligent is your averaqe atheist? Were their decisions and beliefs changed through a well thought out process - NOT here on news24. Most arguments here by atheists, consists of insults, and comments which are hear-say more than researched. You as with other Atheists here, are clouded with resentment towards all religions and can therefore not think and comment objectively.

  • dayaan.deskay - 2012-09-29 09:50

    If for arguments sake this was not a Muslim girl but a orthodox Jewish girl would the court have made the same ruling - DEFINITELY NO - immediately the judge or the court even the school with its principal and teachers would have been branded as Anti-Semitic. And please Germans are not Anti-Semitic. That's a holy cow you don't want to touch. This world is full of double standards. All Muslims are branded as terrorists even Hashim Amla were called one just because he has a beard.

      a.j.bosch - 2012-09-29 09:54

      That is the problem an Orthodox Jewish girl would have had the sense to go to an Orthodox Jewish school to avoid situations like this. This girl's family don't seem to have that sense.

      Savethe White O - 2012-09-29 09:58

      oh get over it your extremists brought it upon you

      jayjay.mlungu - 2012-09-29 10:06

      Ag shame. Poor Muslims. Get a life and stop feeling sorry for yourselves

      henk63 - 2012-09-29 10:15

      All hippies wear flower shirts, tattoos long hair and peace signs. If you wear the same, would you object to being called a hippie? No. I guess you get my drift.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 16:51

      sarel you seem like a bigot. which also leads to believe you;re racist. you don't like blacks do you? come on admit it. you're probably an old apartheid boytjie.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 01:05

      nopes, i'm not a bigot, i respect all religions equally regardless of whether or not i agree with them. you on the other hand, have a high level of intolerance and disrespect/hatred of others beliefs, which in fact makes you the bigot in the room/forum.

      LynneOeschger - 2012-10-01 04:24

      @ Boom - I have no respect for religions at all. I am an atheist. And, as so many people have said - if Muslims will not fit into the norms in whatever country they go to - then really they should not stay. Also, Germany recently banned circumcision for religious reasons - that applies to Jews and Muslims. Come now.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 10:31

      well if you cannot fit in with julius malema, the anc, bee and the likes, then why don't you leave? why do south africans complain even despite the fact that government has said like it or leave it. huge double standards over here :) everybody has a right

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 10:32

      and FYI i've been to a christian school and have many white christian friends. they were all very tolerant of my religion. can't see what went wrong here lol

      alon.fisher.752 - 2012-10-01 10:46

      uhm no the blackhats/penguins keep to their own schools and the secular Jews live amongst everybody else with no problems.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 11:19

      have any of you ever been victimized by muslims in SA? lol all my neighbours are white christian, and we have a great community. wonder why you feel so threatened. lol

  • hudayfah.newman - 2012-09-29 09:54

    This is really a lesson in morality, I mean here in S.A by 12,a lot our lovely young innocent girls that we care of so much are already having abortions.

      jayjay.mlungu - 2012-09-29 10:07

      So what has this article got to do with that?

      sabeer.mahomed.3 - 2012-09-29 10:12

      Jayjay, its ONLY because of naïve people like you that SA is the rape capital of the world

      hudayfah.newman - 2012-09-29 10:13

      Maybe it's best if I get out my crayons and draw it for you.

      jayjay.mlungu - 2012-09-29 10:43

      Sabeer it is only because of people like you that just about everywhere there are Muslims there is strife/war?

      sabeer.mahomed.3 - 2012-09-29 10:55

      Jayjay changin the topic cos the heat got u I see, lol

      fiona.fraser.9847 - 2012-09-29 11:02

      The lesson in Morality Hudayfah is in HOW you as a human educate your child. What YOU as a parent teach them, HOw YOU as a parent behave towards other, is how your child will. Tolerance of other peoples God/Prophet/Deity is TAUGHT at home. If you disrespect other religion, so will your children. If your husband/father is disrespectful of women, the sons pick that up. And as for you comment about 12year no longer being innocent..... LOOK TO THEIR HOMES.... Its not just secular/Christian, its a WORLDWIDE epidemic, caused by lack of PARENTING and you see it in Muslim families too. When one teaches RESPECT (encompasing Religion/Morals/Values/individuality/honesty/principal)you bring up a child/human being who is CAPABLE of understanding and tolerance.

      mya.bee.39 - 2012-09-29 16:27

      @sabeer, with all due respect can you really trust statistics. Yes South Africa has a huge rape crisis, but the difference here is that women CAN speak out against rape. In strict Islamic communities however, if a woman cries rape she needs to have at least 4 male witnesses or the rapist needs to admit to it, also a women's testimony is considered half that of a mans..... So if women were able to speak out, including all the underage girls who are forced to marry and are thus exposed to statutory rape, what would the real statistics be? thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/002-rape_adultery.htm

      susanna.smit.7 - 2012-09-29 19:06

      Farmkid of about 12 asked me how many babies she should have to get R1000 from the government every month. (Couldn't multiply four by R250) This Muslim girl should be thankful she is taught how to swim at least and I bet R10000000000, no 1000000000000 EUROS, she knows the answer to four multiplied by 250. Oh, and morality is all in the mind.

      terry.brauckmann - 2012-09-30 10:26

      ...and they cant even swim!

      alon.fisher.752 - 2012-10-01 10:50

      Hudayfah why cant this girl just go to a Muslim school if her parents dont like what's happening in normal school's, no disrespect but seriously. In Europe you have Moroccans/Arabs/Pakistanis etc coming in expecting everyone will live by their standards don't you see this as unreasonable?

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 11:21

      alon, why do people not live by the standards of the anc, bee, employment equity. you should not have double standards and should rather go to where you came from and not ever complain about sa again :)

      alon.fisher.752 - 2012-10-01 12:19

      Boom Where did I come from?I am a voting South African boet. Why shouldn't I complain about a system that's wrecking our economy, taking jobs away from people better qualified irrespective of race, if the shoe fits you the bigot not me.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 12:44

      and exactly if a person does not want to swim they don;t have to and should not be marked down for it. if this was a white jewish little girl, these commenst would read very differently.

  • makhosonke.maseko.5 - 2012-09-29 09:54

    If malema was the swimming coach he would have said \you swim or you jump\ puhahaha.

      a.j.bosch - 2012-09-29 10:03

      Malema would be a pool bouy. He doesn't swim, he floats.

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-29 14:02

      LOL bloody agent!!

      joe.smit.549 - 2012-09-29 14:13

      Stick the pipe up his a*se and he would make a good Kreepy Krauly!

      lskosana3 - 2012-09-29 16:59

      LMFBAO shuu makhosonke you just killed me, my tummy hurts!!!

  • john.bollie - 2012-09-29 10:03

    Hey, you wanted to live in Germany, if you dont like it PLEASE GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM.

      sabeer.mahomed.3 - 2012-09-29 10:09

      Yep Racism is the answer, once again

      Savethe White O - 2012-09-29 10:17

      Yeah sabeer your religion has nothing to do with race ITS CALLED ISLAM not racelam

      kaapse.skollie.7 - 2012-09-29 10:53

      Are you white? If so, take your own advice and go back to europe.

      juannepierre - 2012-09-29 11:36

      I agree, Islam is not a race. Splitting hairs with that argument, and unlike your thighs it does not retain water.

      kaapse.skollie.7 - 2012-09-29 12:24

      Yoh! Half-breed? There's a term I haven't heard in a while. That's old school, white o.

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-29 15:04

      @Savethe White O Nooit my Bra!! how can you call skollie a half breed? Where must he go back to? One part wants to go back to Holland the rest wants to go back to the Namib to the Bushmen, he would not know where to go, seke ma trug na district 6 toe vi die Kaap se skollies.

      masamune.azeem - 2012-09-30 00:43

      South Africa has affirmative action, if you don't like that,GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM,and stop complaining.look the thumbs down.

      merven.halo - 2012-10-01 08:12

      @ masamune.azeem - we are born here idiot, we are where we came from. Go to Iraq and get some American love.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 09:59

      So true Kaapse skollie, all these idiots complain about "if you dont like it get out"...yet they're complaining about the SA goveernment, so why dont they follow their own advice and get out..... @Sarel, the one part Holland comes from the fact, that YOUR (OUR) forefathers raped the slaves.....now you know where the one part Holland comes from....You proud to actually say that, idiot!

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-02 09:30

      Aah Quickquirky. How we dont think before we write. Go back to your comments above, and then read what you say below "Germany is not a rainbow nation of cultural diversity" - So SA is way ahead of Germany when it comes to culture, religion etc. I would like you to tell me, if this girl had come to SA, would she have been allowed to not swim with the boys? Isnt moving with the times, respecting all religions, cultures - otherwise we might as well go back to the days of religious and cultural wars? "change the Muslim way to suit their atheist needs" - Error, she is not asking other citizens to change their rights, religion etc, but merely to respect hers? You comparisons are pathetic.

  • Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 10:05

    The parents should then be responsible to ensure the girl is taught to swim privately, or in a girls-only class, at their own expense. There should be no state subsidy for such private or girls-only lessons, yet the parents should also be legally obliged to follow through on their obligation to ensure their child is taught to swim as the state requires, and to provide verifiable evidence she is a competent swimmer. Their religious belief should not become a burden to the state in any way, shape or form. I can see the reasoning of the German court, however, in reaching their verdict so as to prevent the formation of 'Little Sharia States'. It is just a matter of time, and probably quite a short time being that it is Germany, before someone compares them to the nazis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

  • jayjay.mlungu - 2012-09-29 10:13

    I would love to hear the Muslims comment about women's rights-see this article. http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/28/world/meast/saudi-arabia-nigeria-pilgrims/index.html?eref=edition If my wife wanted to go alone do you think Saudi would grant me the right of appeal? I think not! Therefore apply the same reasoning to the German decision and you will see your paranoia is nonsensical!

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:01

      ja hey, do unto them as they do unto you. Very, very grown up of you....

  • derek.wright.7370 - 2012-09-29 10:21

    your parents chose to live in Germany and they accepted you.If you don't like thrGerman way of life go back to Morocco or anotherMuslim bastion of democracy and freedom.By the way skollie Germany is a great well run country

      kaapse.skollie.7 - 2012-09-29 10:49

      Absolutely, germany is no banana republic. But I don't understand this 'go back to your country' vibe. So should all the afrikaners, poms, portuguese etc leave SA too?

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 12:39

      I cannot believe this intolerance and complete societal totalitarianism!! Coercing a young HUMAN to do something against her will! Authoritarian-socialist Europe must fall!!

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-30 13:37

      So sad. In a libertarian setup there wouldnt easily be any objections.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:06

      Very Right, kaapse skollie, very, very right. Most people here choose where a certain principle should be applied. Most of these people hate Zuma and teh ANC, yet they never advise people to "get out".Typical.... @Quirky, you just become more of an idiot as the comments carry on. What the hell are you talking about. Many a Muslim wears their Muslim attire to board meetings here in SA. We tolerate it, why cant you. Get over your Atheist belief of superiority and learn to respect all peoples beliefs and cultures....

      reg.nagel - 2012-10-01 12:38

      Jawohl"Herr Wright.7370...your spot on...

      derek.wright.7370 - 2012-10-01 15:52

      Kaapse skollie, I have no problem with any creed or culture and embrace the diversity in our country. My problem is the stance taken at a German school that clearly has rules and a code of conduct etc, The school is within it's rights to enforce their norms in their country without it being an issue. Like I said the family chose to live in Germany much as I choose to live here but don't necessary agree with everything going down but still abide by the laws of the land. If your faith/culture is in conflict with the common culture of an organisation embrace an alternative.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-02 09:32

      As stated above, get over your superiority....

  • gwvickers - 2012-09-29 10:24

    Bla bla bla bla, Muslims are also not allowed to drink alcohol, smoke and gamble, but they do, so what's the issue, you don't like it. Then go back to your country.

      ppisciotta - 2012-09-29 15:32

      I've had many a drink with muslim men. I wonder - do they cover their women because they are tempted, or because they usually are a too ugly to look at? I had one muslim man tell me he didn't want other men to see his wife. I saw her without her garb. I understand now why he was so embarrassed.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 17:59

      @ppiscotta. clearly you drink at low class establishments.

      jayjay.mlungu - 2012-09-29 20:28

      Kaapse Skollie jou witpyp wag op jou

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:07

      Brilliant Kaapse Skollie, brilliant. You really hit the nail on the head. All you people that complain about SA, stop complaining, follow your own advice and tolerate it!

  • helene.lee.982 - 2012-09-29 10:34

    Excellent judgement.

      kaapse.skollie.7 - 2012-09-29 11:45

      Which judgement? That the girl be compelled to take part in a certain sport? That she not be allowed to practise her culture? Or that she be forced to abide by the school's rules - which are supposedly absolute?

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 12:58

      Well said Skollie! Lets fight Authoritarianst coercion such as this, comrade.

      jayjay.mlungu - 2012-09-29 20:16

      Kaapse Skollie gaan rook jou witpyp!

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:10

      True Kaapse Skollie, people are not looking at the whole picture. Tolerance of all beliefs and cultures is what democracy is all about. She's not asking to be carried around on a golden pedestal. These Muslim beliefs have been around before the state of Germany was formed.....

      alon.fisher.752 - 2012-10-01 10:57

      Arent there any girls schools in Germany? They chose a mainstream public school, with other German kids eg; Locals,Vietnamese,Russians and everybody else.

  • taariq.halim - 2012-09-29 11:09

    Reading all these comments, I suddenly feel unwelcome in my own country. The constitution recognises me, but not my fellow SA citizen. I'll be sad when I sing the anthem before the Bok game today.

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 13:03

      Dont worry about the authoratarianists on this page comrade, they WILL fall and you and I and all other cultures will not be coerced again. Embrace the ethics of Realist-Libertariasim and we shall overcome!

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-29 14:34

      @fred I regte rusbank revolutionary jy ne, klink meer of jy n vlooi in jou hol ondek het toe jy die groot woorde ge google het. As ek een van jou posts sien gan my regter hand in n spasm en my middel finger raak stok styf.

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 14:52

      Wag maar comrades as die libertyne die dag opstaan en als verander...dan sal selfs mense soos Sarel moet toegee ons was REG!

      jayjay.mlungu - 2012-09-29 20:29

      Ai Freddie watse goed rook jy?

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 20:33

      Iets waarvan SA duidelik nog nie gehoor het nie.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:21

      @stalingcina. Very True, Tariq do not worry, SA has a strong belief in cultures, and the protection of it. Most of the people commenting here, are but a mere 0.0000000001% (should i add more zero's).....and their backward beliefs are not shared by the vast majority of the country, that have great respect for culture and beliefs.......this is the reason the more they comment, the more they are confirming they're idiots, cause they aint getting no where with their backward mentality in SA......VIVA SA....

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:22

      VIVA SA, FREDERIK, VIVA!!!....Jy's heeltemal reg!

  • juannepierre - 2012-09-29 11:34

    I take offense to a person that deems a human body so low. Just because a book says that a body is disgusting doesn't mean I should respect that opinion because it baths itself in religious propriety

  • Neal Sing - 2012-09-29 12:16

    One solution to the problem.Put the child into a homestudy program.Then she can be kept separate from all other persons as her religion says.

  • charmaine.mcdonald2 - 2012-09-29 12:34

    When in Rome, do as the Romans do, They have full body swim suits available in all sizes. In South Africa, everyone see naked bodies on the beach.

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 12:56

      Sorry mam, but no human may coerce another...if she doesnt want to swim leave her alone! Its HER choice, the school and court has no say in the matter. That is authoritarianist dictatorship at its disgusting best!

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 16:55

      You cant force her. Period.

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 17:13

      In fact Quirks, this shows the inefficiency of the conventional education system in the postmodern world. Zero respect for individual Will.

      MerryMartin - 2012-09-29 17:48

      @Fred: no-one is forcing the girl to swim. If she will not swim, she will receive the appropriate marks for "not swimming".

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 20:34

      Well if the court is forcing her, what do you call it? A birthday invitation?

      juannepierre - 2012-09-30 06:14

      Oh please, it's swimming, they are not asking her to hold onto those shirtless boys. Give me one good reason she shouldn't, and don't say religion, I said good reason... Aka, logic.

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-30 10:22

      Makes no difference. Its a miscarriage of justice: forcing people to do something that has got everything to do with personal choice!

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-30 13:18

      Realism, not acting foolish.

      LanfearM - 2012-10-01 09:17

      @ frederikrudolph.vandyk - oh I see, so if my child doesn't want to do science for example, then she can just say so and "exercise her rights"? Nonsense, it is part of the school curriculum in primary schools in Germany and also law that all children learn how to swim. If it bothers her so much, send her to a Muslim school or a girls-only school. Once again Islam tries to force its own rules onto secular society. Been happening a lot in Europe lately, read the international papers online.

      jayjay.mlungu - 2012-10-02 20:59

      So Freddie, why dont you have anything to say about the double standards of muslim countries too then?

  • frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 12:35

    Stop coercing people! See what authoritarianism is doing to the world, Comrades!? It is stealing our Freedom! Down with Socialist democratics! Down with Fascism! VIVA LIBERTARIANISM VIVA!!!!

      carl.h.witte - 2012-09-29 13:00

      Fred, perhaps read your comment before you post?

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 13:04

      Why so? Are you offended by the future ideology of the Free?

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-29 13:38

      Jy het berslis die groot woord LIBERTARIANISM ge google want dis moer ver bokant jou vuurmaak plek dom f@k.

      jerry.pres - 2012-09-29 20:48

      @ frederikvandick Did you forget take your pills lately?

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 21:06

      No, im just tired of explaining libertarianism and interreligious tolerance to some individuals around here.

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-30 13:21

      I am not saying that society should be discarded- there will always be society. But in a Realist-libertarian system, one neednt bow to the pressures of society, thats to say, you can run your life as you see fit. But when you infringe the basic rights of others, you will face consequences.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:26

      Quick Quirky...as stated before, as the comments go on, you become more of an idiot. "As long as you dont infringe on other peoples rights"...thats the point, she is not infringing anybody's rights by making this request....

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-02 09:38

      Ever heard the expression, the truth hurts. “skip swimming because he is insulted by the Muslim girls legs or burka” – that is the boys personal opinion and not dictated by his religion or culture – there is a big difference. Religion & culture through its existence demands a great respect, and your atheist view limits you to not accepting these practices. You cannot compare feelings, emotions to religious practices – the two are miles apart. Your atheistic understanding of democracy is closed off to religion and culture – you can therefore not comment fairly.

      jayjay.mlungu - 2012-10-02 21:00

      Freedom brings with it responsibility-try to do that Freddie!

  • joe.smit.549 - 2012-09-29 14:01

    Ho hum! Yawn. And there I thought swimming was good for you!

  • frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 14:01

    Dis die toekoms pel. Raak daaraan gewoond. En u moet dalk self bietjie libertynse beginsels (sommer maniere ook) loop Google.

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-29 14:16

      Ek is nie jou pel nie f@ck head en raak jy aan my middel finger tussen jou en bleading hart moslem buddies se oggies gewoont.

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 14:55

      En wat maak jou beter as hulle Meneer Sarel Rassis? Jy bid seker vir jou saligheid op Sondae maar haat weer mense in die week? Shame ou.

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-29 15:39

      Jy is retig toe so stupid soos ek gedink het, waar the ras hier nou in gekom of raak jou argumente maar n biekie vlak en din. Ag nee daar gan my middel finger weer!

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 16:48

      Sarel racist, go back to dutchland. if you continue to stay in SA, julias malema sal vir julle racist mense kom slaan.

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 17:02

      Rassis of nie Sarel jy argumenteer bevooroordelend...moenie respek van ander godsdienste verwag met so houding nie pel...

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-29 17:43

      Ek het jou gese ek is nie jou pel d@@s

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 20:45

      Sorry pel, ek het nie besef jy vat offence nie, ou pella!

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:29

      Briljant, Frederik. Ek't jou Facebook blad gesien, dit lyk vir my jy's nog jonk, maar so slim. Jy's ons toekoms, met mense soos jy sal ons land ver gaan....

      merven.halo - 2012-10-01 10:52

      "met mense soos jy sal ons land ver gaan...." Yes, Zimbabwean style.

      jayjay.mlungu - 2012-10-02 21:07

      Afridi rook Boom! lol

  • Peter Zylstra - 2012-09-29 14:10

    If you want to live like a muslim then live in a muslim country! Don't try and force your stupid ways down the throats of your host country. Am I as a westener allowed to have a beer in a pub in a muslim country......NO! What's good for the goose is good for the gander!

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-29 14:22

      I ask myself, what if it was n German girl swimming with boy's in a Muslim country? They would most probably stone her, funny how Muslims always complain about Western country's but yet the will live there in a drop of a hat?

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 15:01

      Stop generalizing Sarel, then maybe your arguments will appear a bit less naive.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 16:47

      remember Sarel, muslims dont need your western countries, we have billion and billions of $$$ and will surpass your bankrupt western countries in infrastructure. you seem ignorant, do you even know what islam is all about or do you just watch tv and comment?

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-29 17:20

      boom.afridi.56@ Didn't know you are a Arab Oil tycoon or are you just fabric seller in Mayfair? Maybe you sell spares in Mitchells Plain and the only oil you have is 20W50 in cans. Yes the West buy the oil and its only worth that amount of money because the west values it so much other than that \you\ have a big beech for a country o and camels, I also don't see a lot of that money finding its way down to ordinary Muslims hence the Arab spring. I don't know what your argument has to do with anything said on this subject and if calling people ignorant is all you can ad then you should rather look in the mirror if your looking for ignorance.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 17:31

      sarel as an apartheid bigot and racist i assume you still dress like a schoolboy with short trousers and long socks lol have you seen dubai, qatar and abu dhabi? my friend it probably scares you that muslims nations are growing faster than your own. you are in a predominantly black country, does that mean because your culture of religious beliefs are different you can't live here? why are you not being forced to dress like Shaka? i know you love your schoolboy shorts but really man.. learn to be tolerant!!

      susanna.smit.7 - 2012-09-29 19:20

      Hi Freddie, get of Sarel's case, his middle finger is getting sore and your liberalism will drive everyone back to the stone age where people can run free. Give the Germans a Bells for forcing children to have life skills or would you happily stand by and watch the Muslim girl drown because she is shutting her eyes with her hands instead of using them to swim?

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 20:44

      Forcing EVERY child to learn the same skills? Forcing!? So now we dont have a choice what we want our children to be taught and you see that as fine? Terrible modernist mindset of yours...a human like all others, hell-bent on telling others how to run their lives! Oh and there is a HUGE difference between libertarianism and liberalism!

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-30 13:24

      Exactly! So who then, Quirks, has the only say what skills to learn? To run your life? You, yourself and you ONLY.

      jayjay.mlungu - 2012-10-02 21:06

      Afridi you are funny. You accuse people of being racist and then you do the same thing! hahaha Anyway, apply your logic to a country (say Saudi)-people cant worship their own God there or live their way of life, so why do you take exception if the position is reversed?????

  • enlightened.bowman - 2012-09-29 18:50

    Great. Well done. Twenty five thumbs up to Germany. Who in the worlddo these primitive low lives think they are. They go to 21st century countris with 13th century values and simplyexpect everyone to change to accomodate their little faith. If they are such proud Muslims, what on earth are they doing away from their paradises on earth? P-ss off back into the holes you come out of and enjoy your faith. It does not belong in the western world.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:49

      Very insightful comment...

  • Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 18:51

    @ boom.afridi - I notice you've carefully avoided a condemnation of pcabs' post concerning rape statistics, or at least his warped, deluded, misogynistic version of rape statistics, where you've been very vocal in response to a good deal of other posts. Why might that be? Afraid to contradict a co-believer, perhaps?

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 19:11

      @bob i didn't read that and rape does not have anything to do with this. does not mean he is co believer what he says is right.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 19:18

      So read his post then and let's have your opinion. And if his facebook page is anything to go by, he's certainly a muslim.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 19:20

      And I notice you commented on posts before and after pcabs' post, but you didn't read it? Yeah, right!!

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 19:40

      no woman should be raped regardless. how can a person justify that?

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 20:01

      Thanks for that, boom.afridi. Now do you not acknowledge that pcabs' misogynistic misconception may be fuelled by his Islamic indoctrination that women who reveal what he and many other muslims perceive to be way too much flesh makes them in some way accountable for them being raped? Or do you share his views that women who dress revealingly, or at least in a way that conservative Muslims may perceive to be revealingly, makes them a worthy target for rape?

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:50

      @Boom, Bobs last comment shows where his intellect levels are....very, very low....

  • enlightened.bowman - 2012-09-29 18:53

    Just as a matter of interest. What would happen if I went to an islamic republic and asked for my wife to be exempt from covering her head because she is not Muslim and feels she should be excused? Can any Muslim please clarify this for me? I'm just a bit confused about the concept of tolerance.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 19:14

      well. in dubai there are woman walking around without scarves. again, you people only see what is on tv and have never been outside four walls. in the holy lands non muslims are not allowed so you don't have to worry.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 19:22

      And what of Medina? The Mutaween will beat them like a dirty dog if they go on the street unescorted and/or reveal so much as too much neck skin.

      muhammad.mokoena - 2012-09-29 19:34

      Your problem with islam is that you don't believe its from Allah. So u gotta clear that up first. And if its from Allah and he's the most wise then his system and laws are the best laws. Even if you can't see the wisdom behind them.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 19:36

      @ muhammad.mokoena - What are you talking about? Are you even replying to the right post?

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 19:36

      who said that they want to live exposed. you don't speak for the majority of muslim women you twit.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 19:44

      @ boom.afridi - enlightened.bownam was talking about his non-muslim wife requesting exemption from being covered up in public. I was simply making a comparison with a place where the religious police will accost a woman who is caught in public unescorted or not adequately covered up. Nobody is claiming to talk on behalf of Muslim women.

      muhammad.mokoena - 2012-09-29 19:56

      I'm saying if u have a problem with non Muslims being in Muslim states covered and not naked, then ur problem comes from the fact that u don't believe islam is from Allah. He is the most wise and therefore if its from him then his laws are most wise. After this There's no debate

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 20:12

      @ muhammad.mokoena - Normal western street clothes worn in public by perfectly normal western women is not 'Naked' so please, stop exaggerating. It does not help your argument.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 20:14

      @ muhammad.mokoena - and as for your special pleading regarding Allah and his infinite wisdom, you forget that your believing it does not necessarily make it so. The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim. Please prove Allah's existence, without the use of fallacies and circular reasoning.

      muhammad.mokoena - 2012-09-29 20:19

      Go to onereason.org. You will find all the proof u need. God-willing :)

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 21:05

      @ muhammad.mokoena - onereason.org is a not so clever trap for weak minded individuals.

      muhammad.mokoena - 2012-09-29 21:16

      The burden of proof falls on the one who makes the claim.

      LanfearM - 2012-09-30 09:11

      @ muhammad.mokoena - you said: "..the burdne of proof lies on the one making the claim..." EXACTLY! So where is your proof that your god, or any god for that matter, exists?

      LanfearM - 2012-09-30 09:14

      @ boom.afidi - oh ok, so that is all fine then if I can walk around without a scarf in Dubai. What about Saudi or Iran or Afghanistan or Pakistan? Can I walk there, even in Dubai, with shorts and a tank top on in the heat if I want to? NO, I can't. If we have to abide by their rules and laws when in their theocratic Islamic countries, they must abide by our rules and laws in our secular countries. Finish and klaar. You follow the rules and the laws of the country where you live [or visit]. The girl could have offered to go for private girls-only lessons to get graded, and I am sure the courts would have seen it very differently if that was offered. So next time your kid has a subject they don't like, they can just claim some cultural or religious aversion and be given a pass mark regardless? Ridiculous!

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:54

      @Bob Cee "onereason.org is a not so clever trap for weak minded individuals." So hasnt the burden of proof now shifted to you? Thats why i say Atheists are just dumb indiviiduals that would not research and investigate but throw around hear-say comments....

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-01 10:55

      Lanfear, further confirms my comment on Atheists having inferior intellect levels......Uh, Bob made the burden of proof comment.......

      alon.fisher.752 - 2012-10-01 11:16

      "In our holy lands non muslims are not allowed" How is that for tolerance no disrespect to Muslim people, but why? they can go to other holysites and lands of other religions?I have a respect for Islam as a religion but this is where the buck stops, You can't even build a church/Synagogue/Bhuddist/Hindu temple in Saudi Arabia but Mosques can mushroom allover? Isn't this abit to much?

      LanfearM - 2012-10-01 12:05

      @ jennifer.bosman - ROFLMAO! You are so stupid, you didn't even see that muhammad.mokoena said the exact same thing in the comment directly above mine. Shame, tsk tsk.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-10-02 09:53

      Umm, Lanfear are you sane? Bob made the comment first? What are you talking about?

  • enlightened.bowman - 2012-09-29 18:54

    @ magdakus.Im morrocco. Not in Germany

  • enlightened.bowman - 2012-09-29 18:56

    @tareek.Halim. Yes you're right, in SA a not would be enough. Look where we're heading. Something like Iraq?

  • enlightened.bowman - 2012-09-29 19:00

    omonaija. First of all to use Paris Hilton and Kim kardashian as examples is worthy of coming from a 10 year old. Why learn to swim? its saves lives and EVERYONE in Europe has to attend swimming. Get you facts straight and grow up.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 19:16

      so if it was compulsory to dress according to Zulu tradition in SA what would you do?

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 19:40

      Do you know what a false analogy is, boom.afridi? If Zulu dress is somehow proven beyond reasonable doubt to drastically reduce premature, accidental death of children during summer months then sure. Until then, try and keep your analogies relevant to the topic.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 19:43

      come on if a person doesn't want to learn to swim, they don't have to. that can be german law but in my opinion it's a dumb law. what if a person is medically unfit to swim. same thing.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 20:08

      Another false analogy. The article mentions nothing of the girl in question being physically or medically unfit to swim. That would be another case entirely. If the activity of swimming is part of the education curriculum in Germany and the parents were aware, they could easily have arranged for private or girls-only swimming lessons and at least shown some effort to meet the system halfway, which the article makes no mention of, so based on the facts we have, it appears they simply wanted things on their terms and on top of that chose to opportunistically make a policitcal issue about it as well.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 20:13

      exactly make alternative private arrangements but don't mark down the girl for her refusal not to do it. it's her right not to want to swim in public and if she feel uncomfortable then fine. no compassion? i mean come on she's 12 years old!!

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 20:42

      @ boom.afridi - In a country where the parents are well aware that the education system includes physical activities and the child's participation in these activities is considered important enough to warrant assigning some form of grading system to it, if they bow to this pressure then what's to stop other children from opting out of other subjects simply because they don't like them, or that their religion objects to? Something like science which would promote evolution, which some religions strongly object to? Should they be able to opt out of that and receive marks for it as well? There has to be consequences for decisions and people must stop being allowed to concoct excuses for special treatment when there is no grounds. I wholeheartedly support her decision not to swim if it made her uncomfortable. What I object to is her desire to not swim and get the marks as well.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 20:44

      And I would fully support her receiving the marks if a private swimming instructor were to verify her attendance of private or girls-only lessons, and I would object to the schools refusal to grant her marks in that case, wehre she had shown effort to meet them halfway. In a case such as that I would back her fully, but it seems that has not been the case.

      alon.fisher.752 - 2012-10-01 11:20

      Boom Afridi if we all had to dress according to Zulu tradition and an uberhot supermodel passes by, their will be some muscular activity in my loincloth. :-)

  • vernon.samuel.7 - 2012-09-29 19:29

    Naturally muslim-haters rub their hands in glee at sories such as this, and then spit their hateful opinions all over the media. Here is the story in a nutshell. A girl living in a democracy went to the court of law to rule against being forced to do something that she does not feel comfortable doing. The courts ruled against her. Now she either appeals, abides by the rule, breaks the law and faces fines/imprisonment or she emigrates. She is not trying to change the world. She is not trying to get herself hate-mail. She is merely practising her right. We sit in our corners, sulking, bitching on news24, and moaning about the wrongs that we experience. We do not take legal recourse. Hats off to this child. She is brave and I applaud her attempts. We could learn a thing or two from her instead of being the bitter, hateful nation that we have become.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 19:47

      No vernon, she is being made a puppet by opportunists looking for legal inroads to plant theocratic roots in foreign soil and she herself is no champion for human rights.

      vernon.samuel.7 - 2012-09-29 20:19

      Yup I gather the majority of people who contribute to this site believe just that. Without any basis in fact at all. At face value, this story merely mentions a girl practising her democratic right in a democratic country. If you want to believe the puppet story without any basis in fact, then go right ahead. As I said, that is the sort of critical, hateful nation we have become.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-29 20:34

      @ vernon - There is no reason for you to jump to the conclusion she is a precocious, stand-alone human rights activist. Lets break my argument down - Premise a) she did not want to participate - fair enough, her choice Premise b) she was to be marked down if she did not participate (glad to see some countries are progressive enough to take physical activities seriously enough to make them part of the education grade) Conclusion - she objected to the fact that she was to be marked down due to a decision she made based on religious teachings and she wanted to use her religious reason as a special pleading to skip the class but not be marked down. Her only option, or that of her parents and their activist lawyer, was to make a political issue of it, so she could have her cake and eat it, so the tail could wag the dog. I believe that's a fair argument based on the contents of the article.

      LanfearM - 2012-09-30 09:04

      @ vernon.samuel - "without basis in fact"? Really now, the whole court case and the premise of the case is based in the fact that the Muslims across Europe is trying to force their theocratic rules onto the general populace. If you want to follow qur'an rules, go and live in an Islamic country or send your child to an Islamic school. Simple as that. If she was so adamant and "brave" then she should have stuck to her rules and forfeited the marks. To take the class is part of the rules of the school in Germany, a secular modern country. This is not Islamophobia or muslim-hating Vernon, this is about the rule of law and obeying the rules and law in the country where you live. To want special treatment because of your religion, or some other cultural ideology, is ridiculous. If that is allowed, then someone else can turn around and say they must sacrifice a person to their god [as the religions used to do] and it must be accepted because it is their religion. You are missing the point Vernon.

      vivian.harris.73 - 2012-09-30 10:37

      Germany is not a muslim country. Its not about her democratic rights, its about her religion. Western women can't walk around showing off flesh in muslim countries and have to abide by that country's laws and cover up. So why can't muslims abide to the laws of other non-muslim countries. Why must laws be changed to accomadte muslims, but muslims don't change their laws to accomadate foreigners??!! If you don't like the laws of a country then don't go there.

      vernon.samuel.7 - 2012-09-30 17:42

      Really now, this is quite extraordinary. Rather than doing anything illegal, this girl went to the courts. The courts ruled against her. Case is closed. She will now have to adapt. I don't get people's criticiam here. Everyone has their own squinted views of Islam, Islamic countries and Muslims and they vent that at this girl. If this girl now goes and shoots her teacher and principal I would understand the anger. Not at a girl practising her legal rights to approach the courts. That, people, is the point. If it had been a white girl who did not want to expose her body or see boy's bodies, I wonder what the general reaction here would have been.

      alon.fisher.752 - 2012-10-01 11:22

      Vernon if the school forces everybody to swim regardless of their home-background, why be in such a school?

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 12:56

      alon, with that kind of forced swimming law, being a lifeguard won't be an occupation in germany :(

      vernon.samuel.7 - 2012-10-01 13:46

      I don't know Alon. I saw elsewhere on the comments pages that it is compulsory for all german schools to offer swimming so she cannot escape it. Again, I hardly think that that matters here. She could spend the time running or weight-lifting or whatever else that can be just as effective. But it really is disturbing to me that a child not wanting to swim has us all up in arms over the taliban, suicide bombers, sharia law, etc. Just shows our level of intolerance I think.

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 14:10

      thank you vernon i agree 100%. you wonder why this is nation born from apartheid. look at the character of people living here. over a 12 year old CHILD.

      LanfearM - 2012-10-01 14:17

      @ vernon.samuel - she couldn't just "run around or lift weights or something", since it swimming specifically that is compulsory, due to hundreds of drowning deaths in the summer holidays.

      vernon.samuel.7 - 2012-10-01 14:54

      Now now Lanfear, you don't really think that this child will be spending her summer holidays on the beach do you? She does not want to expose her body or see half-naked male bodies, so I doubt that she will be going anywhere near the beach.

      LanfearM - 2012-10-11 10:09

      @ vernon.samuel - it doesn't matter if she will be going to the beach or not. It is the law and that is it! And she can drown in a private swimming pool as well, not only the beach.

  • elise.kuwa - 2012-09-29 19:44

    When in Rome , you do what the Romans do... Why all the back and forth arguments going on here! Its that's simple people... And if they are REALY not happy! She should go to a school in a Muslim country or a muslim based school in Germany, if there are any. If I want my daughter to be brought up with Christian Values I will send her to a strictly Christian school ie. A Catholic school... Simple! Why all this rocket science thinking.

      alon.fisher.752 - 2012-10-01 11:24

      My sentiments exactly aren't there plenty of schools like that in Germany? Why make this a legal matter,human rights fiasco etc;.

  • josie.russell.10 - 2012-09-29 21:40

    Think most countries are taking this stand as well.

  • fawzia.bayat - 2012-09-29 22:06

    Hello the child in question is not aware of the following :- if she is suitably attired according to the tenets of Islaam , then she needs to follow the words of God in the Quraan " AND SAY TO THE BELIEVING MEN TO LOWER THEIR GAZE & SAY TO THE BELIEVING WOMEN TO LOWER THEIR GAZE" , assuming she has the internal discipline to do so. hence she can , if she is so inclined not to look, stare or gawk at them , as some of us (humans)tend to do. Ultimately it is the Veil of the "inner eye" that needs to be controlled. but i suppose she is still on the learning curve of life & its accompanying challenges

      LanfearM - 2012-09-30 08:59

      Well then, if what you say is true and its the gaze of the "inner eye" that must be controlled by men and women alike, why then must women continuously cover up? Men are supposed to avert their gaze, even if a woman walks by naked. At least that is how understand what you've said above.

      LanfearM - 2012-09-30 08:59

      Hmm, is it perhaps because the men are too weak to avert their gaze or leave a woman alone that she has to be convered from head-to-foot?

      alon.fisher.752 - 2012-10-01 11:26

      Isn't it a matter of self discipline we not neanderthals for crying out loud, this is the 21st century.

  • fawzia.bayat - 2012-09-29 22:15

    After skimming thru' some comments below . Allow me to inform the uniformed ;this earth belongs to all ( IT IS A GLOBAL VILLAGE), so suggest to stop dichotmizing. secondly OF THE 3 SUNNAHS (i.e. practices) OF THE PROPHET MUHUMMUD (P.B.U.H.) one of them is to learn to SWIM for both females & males alike. i rest my case for the moment & hope that some of the ignorance has dissipated. Sayonara & watch for the asteroid on 15ht feb 2013

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-29 22:35

      NO don't tell me the Muslim calender stop on the 15th of Feb next year? Between you the Inca's or is it the Aztec's? and the ANCYL we just don't stand a chance ....do we? I guess your prophet needed to tel you to learn how to swim because learning to swim would not be something I would be to worried about if I'm living in a flipping Desert would I?

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 22:44

      @sarel i know you've lived in SA your whole life and havn't been out much, but deserts have a thing called an oasis. also there is a thing called the arabian peninsula ie. there is an ocean around the desert. come mr. apartheid, didn't you study geography at school?

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-09-29 23:24

      in case you can't make a connection i know you're slow. apartheid = racist = bigot. that's all u. now tsek schoolboy.. and pull up you socks!! lol

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-29 23:35

      What we're sniffing Saartjies? I'll tell you: its the essence of the future- Realist-libertarianism. Try it pel, it works !!

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-30 06:10

      @fred listening to you I think we should try National Socialism again but in place of race we discrininate against propeller heads like you and Zol ag I mean boom. Veral as jy soos passer redeneer, al om jou eie gat.

      merven.halo - 2012-10-01 08:29

      @ boom.afridi.56 - rich coming from idiots that blew themselves up for a heaven full of virgins. Did you misplace your detonator, why are you still here? now tsek schoolboy.. push the button!!

      boom.afridi.56 - 2012-10-01 12:57

      @merven. wow you're so original. twit.

      jayjay.mlungu - 2012-10-02 21:26

      Rook boom you are the BIGGEST RACIST?BIGGOT on this forum! @rsehl

  • masamune.azeem - 2012-09-30 00:43

    South Africa has affirmative action, if you don't like that,GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM,and stop complaining.look the thumbs down.

      sarel.brits - 2012-09-30 06:25

      Yes like there once was apartheid, why didn't you go back to where ever it is you came from? Or was it not that bad? But this is beside the point what has Apartheid or Affirmative action got to do with this. These people are immigrants not citizens of Germany as the White people in SA are citizens. I can trace my ancestors back to the Cape in 1659 must I now piss off back to Germany every time something happens that I don't like or must I keep quiet about injustice not to be branded a racist. You forget everybody was a immigrant in this land at one time.

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-30 08:01

      You dont have to shut up, just stop arguing like a bigot.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-30 11:50

      @ frederikrudolph.vandyk - Why don't you make an attempt at debating the points instead of just casting judgement? So far this is all you seem to have offered.

      frederikrudolph.vandyk - 2012-09-30 13:26

      Im merely pointing out that Sarel seems to have the cat by the tail concerning his right to opinion.

  • gordon.thefreeman1 - 2012-09-30 03:16

    There are some really stupid comments above. The courts are upholding the law of THAT country (germany). If it was a Muslim country, the courts would uphold Muslim law, but this is germany, a very liberal and dare I say it, almost atheist country. The girl is learning a very important lesson in getting along with people of other faiths/cultures. She can still decide to swim or not, and that is the most important issue - she still has a choice.

  • gordon.thefreeman1 - 2012-09-30 03:51

    The solution is of course to have seperate swimming classes for the boys and girls, then they can at least concentrate on what they are doing.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-30 08:46

      No, the solution is for the parents of the girl to shoulder the expense of private swimming lessons for their daughter, or simply accept that she forfeits the marks. Why should German society and education system adjust its practice of mixed swimming lessons to cater for a religious dogma which not all members of German society share. There does not appear to be any evidence that the parents have identified this solution. No, it appears they simply want their daughter to not swim AND to get the credit for completion of the class. If they had approached the education board and met them halfway to see if they would accept her receiving private lessons at an accredited swimming instructor, then I would support her being entitled to claim the marks and credit for the class, but I see no evidence that this has been the case. This would change the case substantially and it would not appear as it currently does...an opportunistic attempt to plant theocratic roots in foreign soil. There is a reasonable argument that if swimming is a class to which the religious have a valid claim to skip and still receive credit, then they could also start demanding their kids skip any classes covering evolution or big-bang-theory, to which numerous religions have a very clear objection, and still demand to be given credit for attendance. The sooner the girl learns the concept of compromise, the better. If they want separate lessons in Morocco, fine, but in Germany, there is no need for it.

      LanfearM - 2012-09-30 08:55

      No. Why should that be? We who adhere to westernised culture(s) have socially evolved beyond all the "separate male/female" crap.

      fort.horseman.7 - 2012-09-30 12:56

      @lanfear.That what u might term as 'evolve' is the root cause of mans demise,as i dont have to point out to you,just look at the problems in the world.

      LanfearM - 2012-10-01 08:47

      @ fort.horseman - really? Then please enlighten me to the problems in the world that we have now but never had before?

      alon.fisher.752 - 2012-10-01 11:29

      To the benefit of who? just one person isn't that abit selfish?

  • Jason - 2012-09-30 08:43

    For all you people crying crocodile tears and saying the judgemeny is unfair, please consider what a court in ANY Islamic country would do if a German schoolgirl arrived and applied to be given the right to wear a normal costume to school swimming lessons.

      LanfearM - 2012-09-30 08:54

      Exactly Jason! Even as a tourist in an Islamic country I am forced to abide by their dress-code for women [i.e. no sleeveless shirts, no shorts, no minis, etc.]. It amaze me how the Islamic countries cry foul all the time about intolerance, yet they themselves refuse to show tolerance for other people and their laws and cultures.

  • jackie.white.94064 - 2012-09-30 09:00

    I agree when you move to another country, then the rules and laws of that country stand, if her and her family are unhappy move her to muslim school!! Can you imagine if SA citizens go there and are as lawless as they are here....do you think for one moment it would be tolerated just because it's the norm here or the culture???

      alon.fisher.752 - 2012-10-01 11:33

      LOL send all our criminal;s to the middle east ;-).

  • Cedric - 2012-09-30 09:18

    the thruth is beliefs won't surpus reality. and in this case reality is not evryone uphold islam as high as the belivers.

  • jy.wilmos - 2012-09-30 10:11

    It seems to me that sending the girl to an all-girls school in the first place might have been a better idea.

  • vivian.harris.73 - 2012-09-30 10:44

    Everybody talking about the girl's rights when its got nothing to with it. Its about her religion. Her parents should've put her in a muslim school. Just like foreigners have to abide to muslim country laws and cover up the women, muslims have to abide to non-muslim country laws. Why must a country change its laws to accomadate muslim women when muslim countries don't do it for foreign women.

  • fort.horseman.7 - 2012-09-30 11:42

    Being well short of the mark myself,what i admire most about this Muslim girl is that she has attained that level of spiritual discipline to act on superior Devine law ,but is forced to stoop to the level of mans,lands,countries or nations laws.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-30 13:34

      @ fort.horseman.7 - Special pleading. How very convenient that when we want things to go our way, we can simply claim we have divine warrant. What a great way to deflect all arguments to the contrary of our own opinion. Pity it's utterly fallacious and completely unsound as an argument. "The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species. It may be a long farewell, but it has begun and, like all farewells, should not be protracted." - Christopher Hitchens http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special_pleading

      fort.horseman.7 - 2012-09-30 14:10

      @Bob.Cee1.Your argument is abit vague,but i get the impression that you objecting to the imposing of 1s spiritual belief.Thats not the case,and in this 1,the girl due to her conviction is not asking every1 to get out of the pool when she gets in,she is simply trying to avoid indulging in an activity that might errode her spiritual self.They say dont go in the rain if u dont wana get wet.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-30 15:47

      @ Fort.Horseman.7 - You clearly didn't read the piece and the other posts. Not only does she not want to do the class, which is entirely her perogative, but she clearly wants to not be penalized the marks for not doing the class. There is no mention of any effort from her or her family to reach any kind of compromise. They are simply expecting their special pleading to be granted with any compromise from their side. While I do object to the imposition of spiritual beliefs, I am not accusing her of that in this particular case, but rather that she, or more likely her family and their activist lawyer, wants to 'wag the dog'. There is good reason to believe this could be the thin end of a theocratic wedge, seeking progressively larger concessions from a secular society. As for the 'erosion of her spiritual self' It's not like she's being asked to befriend puppies & kittens then kill them, like some kind of hard-core military special forces soldier training. Have I been clear enough?

      fort.horseman.7 - 2012-09-30 16:12

      @Bob.Cee1.I personally find it to be a storm in a teacup.If i was her,or her parent,i would do without the mark,and avoid the pool,without making a fuss.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-30 16:23

      I agree, but why ever did they dig their heels in on this? This is what leads me to believe it's about more than the marks.

      fort.horseman.7 - 2012-09-30 16:53

      @Bob.Cee.I think the world at large unfortunately is caught up in a culture of confrontation and common sense is ringing out the bell.

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-09-30 20:39

      @ fort.horseman.7 - I have reason to believe it may be just that religion is not accustomed to being confronted, so the recent wind-change from blind deferral to religion to that of reasoned criticism of religion and it's fallacious expectations of blind respect is now perceived as hostility and nastyness, when all that has happened is that more and more people have stopped blindly deferring to organized religion's every whim and whimper, and have started to apply their minds by actually thinking about how much religion has gotten away with over the years and no longer accepting this blank cheque / ace up the sleeve which religion would pull out at every opportunity.

      fort.horseman.7 - 2012-09-30 21:10

      @Bob.Cee.I can tell u that many of my fellow muslims have betrayed me countlessly,but i never faulted my Religion for those ignorant few.I stand only for what i believe in,muslim is not Islam.Islam is Islam.Many close to me have sold their souls for greed,lust for power,amassing of wealth but are quick to sit in judgement of others.Iv been round the block to know that my Religion wil deal with the hypocrites.

      freddie.mostert.3 - 2012-09-30 21:45

      Fort

      Bob.Cee123 - 2012-10-01 06:31

      @ fort.horseman.7 - how, pray tell, will your religion 'deal with hypocrites'? You are making an unsubstantiated claim to knowledge. That is not even worthy of a response other than - 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can also be dismissed without evidence' - Christopher Hitchens.

  • diran.pillay - 2012-09-30 14:52

    We talk of accepting A countries belief and culture yet we question our very own countries African beliefs and culture. double standards

  • henry.vanderburpenfart - 2012-09-30 18:53

    Good to see more European countries taking a stand against immigrant cultures being imposed on them.

      Andrew - 2012-09-30 19:18

      but you are happy to impose your alien cultures on Africa

      henry.vanderburpenfart - 2012-09-30 20:19

      Ok cool. Back to the good 'ole days of feudal tribal warfare presided over by chieftains and witch doctors. Thanks for whining about alien culture in Africa. On a computer. Connected to the internet.

      LanfearM - 2012-10-01 09:12

      @ Andrew - oh please, get a life! If you hate western culture so much, get rid of all the technology and laws and democracy etc. that it brought to southern Africa. The culture of the Muslims was imposed on North Africa, not of the Europeans.

      diana.gill.18 - 2012-10-01 10:59

      Why we should not take a stand against the immigrant cultures and stop shopping at the Oriental Plaza?

  • emile.marais - 2012-09-30 19:02

    In South Africa they say: ''If you don't like it here, LEAVE!''

      diana.gill.18 - 2012-10-01 10:50

      Uhmm... very very topical. But i am sure you disagree with your own words when complaining about the failures of the ANC as no one likes to live under their rule.

      emile.marais - 2012-10-01 23:36

      I disprove of many things in this world. But somehow I always seem to tolerate it. But, there comes a time when tolerance leads to dejection. I tolerate other people's intolerance. Why?