Cern: Particle may be Higgs boson

2012-07-04 09:44

London - Scientists at the Cern research centre have discovered a new subatomic particle that could be the elusive Higgs boson, which is believed to be crucial in the formation of the universe.

"I can confirm that a particle has been discovered that is consistent with the Higgs boson theory," said John Womersley, chief executive of the UK's Science & Technology Facilities Council, at an event in London.

Joe Incandela, spokesperson for one of the two teams hunting for the Higgs particle told an audience at Cern near Geneva: "This is a preliminary result, but we think it's very strong and very solid."

  • - 2012-07-04 09:49

    Great news!!

      jaguarpaw.ndinisa - 2012-07-04 22:16

      Marvellous indeed, Jay. Whereas the curious and adventurous minds among us mere mortals are excited about the news, the religious seem ominously worried and dejected... Could it mean another trip to the refinery plant...?

      Press - 2012-07-05 01:41

      Aaah stuff all these little arguments - today's truly a great day. Biggest scientific experiment ever has verified that we dont only exist in theory - we now have tangible proof of why we exist - and we have now unravelled much of the story of the last 13.7 bil years. Being able to watch the announcement that basically validates the standard model and seeing Higgs wipe tears from his eyes - priceless Kudo's for every thinking human being involved in this greatest of human adventures.

  • bretton.eveleigh - 2012-07-04 09:51

    So how many Higgs boson particles are there in the average peanut butter sandwich?

      harley.quin.334 - 2012-07-04 10:47

      that depends entirly on wether it is smooth or chunky peanut butter

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 15:14

      The chunkiness denotes large concentrations of peanut butter particles.

      thys.jager - 2012-07-04 15:30

      Is it Black Cat or Skippy?

      Boy - 2012-07-04 23:11


  • Ryno - 2012-07-04 09:53

    blame apartheid!!!

      merven.halo - 2012-07-04 10:30

      Bloody particle agent! - 2012-07-04 10:36

      This is getting old.

      wajmuller - 2012-07-04 10:47

      its a white racist particle, bloody agent!

      Jared - 2012-07-04 11:45


      skootzie - 2012-07-04 15:17

      In Soviet Africa...

      alansmartSnr - 2012-07-04 19:23

      ..This is the funniest and most hilarious discussion I have seen for a long time. Highly intelligent and clued up persons on both sides - creation and evolutionist's. Wow.. leaves me with a dilema. I made love to the tooth fairy some time ago.. and we both have been following the CERN project religiously since it's inaugeration. We even had Father Christmas explain the idea behind the motivation to build this fantastic piece of scientific hardware and explain the existance of quarks and gluons. I've even written a book/journal which I named "Just Thoughts" and predicted(probably unwisely) that in a hundred years time, the human race would have spread to several places in our own lonely galaxy. My thoughts in a nutshell was that time did not exist before the Big Bang nor did space, how did this all happen. Ended that part of the discussion with the comment that "if we dont understand it, just accept it, and science will eventually solve it, one way or the other". This recent "Gods particle" is one of the greatest discoveries of the century and answers more questions which, barring a few intellectuals on this forum, might not understand. If there is a God, he sure is very shy or secretive..and beyond anyones understanding.

  • Morgoth - 2012-07-04 09:55

    Now just to wait for the results to varified, this is good news.

      Morgoth - 2012-07-04 10:05

      I was thinking they would have checked before announcing something this profound. Good news this.

      erich.oberholzer.5 - 2012-07-04 10:32

      I just wish I could live 100 or 200 years from now when religion would be a vague memory

      Stephen - 2012-07-04 10:50

      @erich, me too.

      Andrew2711 - 2012-07-04 12:38

      MemeMan: you seem to have your fingers on this pulse, is there going to be a publication of the findings released soon? They often sit on the findings whilst they get their publication together.

      Andrew2711 - 2012-07-04 13:39

      Thanks Meme, interesting read of the press release. Although I'll understand very little, I look forward to reading the academic publication on these preliminary results, which the press release mentioned should be out by the end of the month.

      Press - 2012-07-05 01:39

      Andrew - here is a nice little starting point video for someone that understands nothing about Higgs - sorry if its too simple - but here is the link - others may find it useful - it predates todays announcement:

  • ben.louw.5 - 2012-07-04 09:57


  • mirrorman.smith - 2012-07-04 09:58

    Sweeeeeet! Way to go!!! This is going to be good! :-D

  • greg.quinn.353 - 2012-07-04 10:00

    Do you think they will ever find the Zuma or Malema brain particle?

      Justin.D.Glenn - 2012-07-04 10:09

      I don't think they have equipment to measure something that small.

      catgirl1971 - 2012-07-04 10:32

      Miracles can be performed, the impossible takes a bit longer.

      Gany - 2012-07-04 16:37

      you cannot find something that does not exist.

      Press - 2012-07-05 10:25

      There is no theory that predicts its existence . . .

  • charliekeegan2 - 2012-07-04 10:19

    The Abrahamic God will be as much a fallacy and myth as the Ancient Greek Gods in years (hundreds, thousands?) to come. This is a step closer towards rationality and reality and a move away from indoctrination and exclusivity. For as long as religion at its core implies that our God is the right God and yours is wrong (as is the case with all religions), religion is a poison. Peace is restored and religious wars ended when there is no more 'us' vs 'them' but rather a world where it's all of us, each fighting our own battles of this short painful life, but as one, exploring and wondering about the mysteries of the world together. "God" is us, it's you, it's me. This moment is 'god'. Every atom of existence is a part of the mystery and I'm happy not knowing how or why things are the way they are because we will never know. I don't need the security of religion to feel the comfort of everlasting existence. When my brief time is up, it's up! In the mean time, I'll be as kind as I can to my fellow man and keep curious about it all. And this announcement is just the kind of awe and wonder I can appreciate to live and see.

      paul.bester1 - 2012-07-04 10:31

      Very nicely put, couldn't agree with you more :)

      RabbleRouser - 2012-07-04 10:41

      Very well said. I share the same sentiments.

      RodinsThinker - 2012-07-04 11:48


      downwiththeANC - 2012-07-04 11:48

      so by random chance we just appeared? No programmer? We are programmers in our little world . God is bigger you know. We see things from our own biased perspective. We like fish in a fishbowl...

  • kieron.dean.9 - 2012-07-04 10:27

    I find this all very fascinating... I have looked at all the facts (available to me) and can not come to any other conclusion but to believe in God... it is impossible, and I mean literally impossible (in my humble opinion) for a lady bug, southern right whale, humming bird, tortoise, oak tree and a rose bud to have all originated from the same organism, which no one on this planet can explain with any certainty how it started, Genesis is my understanding. Look at nature and ourselves, how can you honestly say that the conception of a child is anything other then intelligent design. Science is proving one thing for me, just have amazingly well put together this universe is. I support science all the way.

      charliekeegan2 - 2012-07-04 10:42

      You support science but dismiss the entire theory of Evolution by relegating it to something as crass as your elementary definition and understanding of the subject? Hardly ironic that your statement is as contradictory as your entire belief system, isn't it? - 2012-07-04 10:46

      I was about to rant...then I saw your "in my humble opinion" sentence, and I sat back and chilled the *&^# out! ;)

      wayne.bayman - 2012-07-04 10:47

      Evolution can be proved by repetition in a laboratory. This is the basis of science. Belief in god has to be taken on faith, faith in what the bible says is true. Faith is not fact. Just because one believes in something does not make it fact. People with faith take the existence of god as fact and as I've just pointed out, you cannot prove that god exists in a lab. This is why science and religion dont mix very well. The quest to find the higgs boson is not a quest to prove god exists or does not exist. A true scientist will look at a theory, set out to prove it with experimentation and then come to a conclusion based on his/her results of the experiments. A true believer will not need an explanation. They simply believe.

      harley.quin.334 - 2012-07-04 10:50

      ask any woman that just pushed a soccer ball through a bottle neck if the design was 'intelligent' - 2012-07-04 10:59

      @ Harley - AHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!

      alan.gernet - 2012-07-04 11:19

      That what happened to you Harley?

      kieron.dean.9 - 2012-07-04 11:39

      there is not one shred of evidence for evolution adding genetic information (there is for the removal of information) . If you can provide real concrete evidence, without hypothesis then we can chat. My only comment regarding evolution is that the definition needs to be clear... there is evolution of species ie. dogs get bigger or smaller, birds beaks get larger and smaller in terms of climate patterns... but dogs will always remain dogs and horses will remain horses. I refer to the point of the lack of explanation for the origin of life, interesting that Dawkins has gone on record saying that aliens possibly planted life on earth. How is that more believable then God? But again I reiterate its only my opinion.

      CaptainGaza - 2012-07-04 12:03

      Kieron, you need to remove the god goggles first before you can understand evolution. Best you do that first.

      Zing - 2012-07-04 12:33

      @Kieron - Why would you want to believe 1 page from a faulty book, when you have thousands of pages of verifiable information at your fingertips?

      kieron.dean.9 - 2012-07-04 14:21

      @DelusionBuster "Copying errors (mutations) create new info all the time." is a great quote to discuss, they are errors, not additional information (ie.. mutations do not cause birds to sprout wings or humans to produce white blood cells, they REMOVE GENETIC MAKUP). There are multiple mutations for every further generation... in simple terms we are not getting stronger but the contrary. This debate will never die down as it illicit's raw emotion, if you want proof just look at this article. If Darwin had a 1% understanding of the "simple" cell he would have not come to his conclusion (of which his conclusions are extremely vague, however well written). Granted, I do look at the world through "God goggles", and I am very satisfied with my choice. And for all those that disagree with me, that's sincerely great, at least I bring a view to the table that adds to the debate. If we had to have a decent conversation regarding this I think you may be satisfied with my knowledge on the subject... I always invite debate.

      CaptainGaza - 2012-07-04 15:05

      That's a bias opinion because of your goggles Heiron, c'mon dude. The reason you wont accept evolution is because your bible tells you otherwise. I'm sorry but to debate with a fanatic is impossible. Do you accept the age of the universe at Billions of years old or do you believe the 6 day creation? If you're honest with yourself, you have to accept the 6 days creation story as that is what your bible tells you. Like I said before, if you want to understand evolution, you have to remove your god goggles first because with them on, you'll never see what's infront of you i.e Evidence.

      alansmartSnr - 2012-07-04 19:48

      @ kieron.dean.9.. Microbes evolve in a matter of days or adapt and EVOLVE to their environment. Just try and imagine how life can evolve over 13 Billion years. We can't even imagine how long that is - I'll repeat, try and imagine -- 13 billion years. A computer program indicated that an eye could evolve over 4000 generations. Jesus was only on this planet 40 generations ago.. (presumption is that a generation is approx 50 years).. that's about the average age when a child has a grand father.

  • i.see.a.cupcake - 2012-07-04 10:37

    awesome!!! i wonder what we will discover next week. the blah blah blah particle!!!! how bought you noobs solve world hunger!!! - 2012-07-04 10:44

      How about YOU do it, ey? At least they're doing something.

      tooka.loosh - 2012-07-04 10:48

      This is more important than world hunger you feeble minded quark.

      arthur.hugh - 2012-07-04 10:53

      Wow aren't you just a genius hey cupcake.

      Malcolm - 2012-07-04 11:12

      World hunger is a (stupid) people problem not a science/technology problem.

      harley.quin.334 - 2012-07-04 11:13

      Oh dear cupcake, seems like you already discovered the blah blah blah particle

      merven.halo - 2012-07-04 11:18

      Well the blah blah blah particle will explain idiots like you cupcake.

      alan.gernet - 2012-07-04 11:23

      yeah Cupcake - I agree ... like saving our Planet would be a good priority to have!!! What the heck does it matter if a Bosun Particle exists in the Universe or not, when the World is headed for complete destruction in the next couple of decades.

      Thermophage - 2012-07-04 11:25

      Dude... where do you think this technology is heading anyway....? Don't you understand that there NEEDS to be cutting edge research like this, which opens up hundreds of different avenues in research into avenues we haven't even thought of yet. I'd bet my life that one day CERN experiments probably WILL contribute to helping address world hunger.

      ThinkingChick - 2012-07-04 11:26

      Yawn. Really Cupcake? Tell me again how your religion is so great when world hunger has actually been solved, by scientists. We can grow cloned meat and other things in a vat now. Just as science led to GM crops that can grow anywhere. Most of which has been slammed as "playing god" by most religions. *sigh*.

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 15:43

      // awesome!!! i wonder what we will discover next week. the blah blah blah particle!!!! how bought you noobs solve world hunger!!! // "how about* ..." What could a particle physicist do to resolve world hunger? Please enlighten us. How about you actually get a clue? Good grief. alan.gernet Humanity is heading for destruction. The world will continue to live on after it has righted the mistakes humanity has wrought upon it. "If the Earth dies, you [humans] die. If you [humans] die, the Earth survives."

  • adele.kendall.16 - 2012-07-04 10:39

    We live in exciting times

      Sunshine - 2012-07-05 14:29

      We do indeed Adele! Imagine if we lived 1000 years ago, we'd go generations without discovering anything.

  • nico.loubser.9 - 2012-07-04 10:48

    ....and I bet you 99.9999999% of the South Africans has NO clue what this is about!

      asivhanga - 2012-07-04 10:59

      So what...? - 2012-07-04 11:04

      99.9999999% is about 0.049 (of a) South African(s)....i'll take that bet.

      Barefoot - 2012-07-04 11:11

      Because they are not all physicists and engineers. They wouldn't care what happens at CERN, as much as some physicists do not what happens when the CDC discovers a new strain of a virus. foolish comment really.

      nico.loubser.9 - 2012-07-04 14:22

      ""not a single South African"" . Is not true. There are some people that do know.

  • Stephen - 2012-07-04 10:54

    How does this help the poor and unemployed, there's more important work to be done, the bosson can wait. - 2012-07-04 11:00

      No it can't. Its about 2000 years overdue.

      merven.halo - 2012-07-04 11:20

      'How does this help the poor and unemployed' Actually a lot. Now people will realize they must go out and find work to buy food, praying for a food and a job doesn't work.

      Thermophage - 2012-07-04 11:26

      it does help, not immediately, but it will when the research filters down through the other sciences.

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 15:56

      I've written, deleted and rewritten a response to this post so many times ... but nothing adequately explains how stupid it is.

      alansmartSnr - 2012-07-04 20:13

      ..@..stephen.scott.376043 "How does this help the poor and unemployed," That has nothing to do with science.. You want an improvement for the poor and unemployed.. easy.. get rid of Showerhead Hangdick Zuma and his inept ministers and we'll have an immediate turn-around. Vote DA would be a good start.

      nico.loubser.9 - 2012-07-05 09:36

      @stephen.scott.376043 ....... don't you worry about the poor. Zuma is looking after them.

      Sunshine - 2012-07-05 14:31

      How about the poor and unemployed help themselves. Don't we pay enough taxes already?

  • Shirley Van Heerden - 2012-07-04 10:59

    Why is evolution not religiously correct? My theory is based on what is written in the Bible. God is eternal - A day like a thousand years and visi verca. What if the first day was infact the first million years? afterall, what is a million years if you have eternity? And the 6 days was infact six destict evolution periods. I do believe in Almighty Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I think as humans we are exceptionally arrogant to presume that the creator of all must work according to our concept of time - 2012-07-04 11:07

      Seriously? BTW: "I think as humans we are exceptionally arrogant to presume that the creator of all must work according to our concept of time".... Well, I think as humans we are exceptionally arrogant to presume that we know ANYTHING about a creator that has never been witnessed. - 2012-07-04 11:21

      ..."my believe system is not dependable on anyones opinion.... ok I respect that...but what about facts?

      merven.halo - 2012-07-04 11:22

      'I think as humans we are exceptionally arrogant to presume that the creator of all must work according to our concept of time' The bible is inspired by God (Holy Ghost), so if it says 6 days, it must be 6 days. If the start of the bible is bollocks, what make anything else 'true'?

      ThinkingChick - 2012-07-04 11:31

      Dafuq did I just read? Religiots will try anything to make the universe fit with whatever their peculiar brand of belief is. - 2012-07-04 11:38

      Shirley? Anything?

      CaptainGaza - 2012-07-04 11:38

      This reminds me of a joke. Man says to god "How long is a billion years to you?" God "About a second" Man "Wow and how much is a billion dollars to you?" God " About a cent" Man "Can I a cent then" God "Sure, in a second"

      CaptainGaza - 2012-07-04 11:41

      Shirley, god is a concept by which you measure your faith. That's it. The more faith you have, the more real it seems. It's called a delusion.

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 15:59

      And I seriously think you are deluded beyond help. You think humans are exceptionally arrogant to presume that god must work according to our concept of time .. but what does that say about your arrogance to presume that EVERYTHING in the ENTIRETY of existence was created by god FOR YOU? *le sigh*

      piet.strydom - 2012-07-04 17:31

      @Shirley - remember that you are talking now to people whose live's are defined by their fight against Christ. Interesting how, even when people reject Christ, he still forms the centre of their existence. I have always believed your comment to be true for me as well. Recently I came across an author that provides a very compelling argument: His main concept is that, up to the creation of Adam, the Bible uses a different time table. As the earth did not exist for much of the first six days, it makes no sense to use earth days to count time. It is only once Adam is created, that the Bible starts using earth time. BTW, have you ever noticed that according to Genesis, God only "created" three times?

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 18:04

      // defined by their fight against Christ // I stopped reading there. You have NO idea what defines our lives. I suggest you get off your high horse and actually get to know an atheist before making such a ridiculous statement again.

      piet.strydom - 2012-07-04 21:07

      @skootzie - All I have is the evidence you and your cronies leave on News24 websites....

      CaptainGaza - 2012-07-05 09:42

      You have pretty thick pair of god goggles on Piet. I couldn't give a toss about your god or jesus, they are non entities to me so why fight against something that is of no relevance. You christians have a big persecution chip on your shoulders. Well it seems the shoe is on the other foot now. Doesn't feel so good does it.

      Press - 2012-07-05 10:29

      @pietstrydom - suffering from a bit of a persecution complex I see - dont worry - it is treatable . . .

      skootzie - 2012-07-05 13:03

      Piet: Debating, discussing, breaking down and/or lambasting a topic does not imply a life defined by a hate for Christ; nor does it even imply a hate/dislike for the topic under discussion. I harbour no hatred nor ill-will towards Christ and my life is certainly not defined by any level of animosity towards him. I don't think you could even comprehend how little effect Christ, God and Religion has on my life. I discuss religion because I enjoy it not because it defines who I am. Please take off your goggles dude, they're all steamed up.

      Sunshine - 2012-07-05 14:36

      Piet I take it you haven't then seen the non-believers response to the pro-Islam articles over in the other N24 sections. You wish it's all about Christianity.

  • julian.booyens - 2012-07-04 11:03

    This is a great discovery, so what will this achieve and what can be done with the particle? Why make such an anouncement if not 100% conclusive sounds to me like a case of 'Counting your chickens before they hatch' So in laymans terms please can someone inform me and please do not bring religion into it - 2012-07-04 11:06

      Read MemeMan's post above.

      ThinkingChick - 2012-07-04 11:30

      Laymans terms - I think: What this does is take us very close to knowing the Big Bang Theory is fact. Or rather, more fact than we all know it to be anyway. This particle is what gives matter weight and gravity (at least that is my fairly low-level understanding of it). Why is this important? OK - the origin of life and existence has been something we have searched for. It consumes humans. If you accept that diamonds come from carbon (they do) then you are dealing with a similar accuracy here. Can you not just go "yay - science has done something awesome even if I don't 100% understand it, but I will accept that the egg-heads are probably not lying?" What this does is show us that we have been on the right track with physics for ages.

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 16:01

      "Higgs boson gives mass its attributes like inertia and gravity. So, theoretically, if we are able to control the mass, we can reduce inertia. A 200-tonne jumbo jet can be manufactured with inertia as low as that of a 20-tonne one, leading to huge savings in fuel costs. Or even better, a light weight interstellar ship that can zip across the space to make travel to Mars as convenient as the trans-Atlantic trip of today. Higgs boson is one more – a significant one – piece of the puzzle that our universe is, and that is what makes it important. Who knows in a century from now, or even earlier, time warps, time travel may all become reality; such is the potential of the find. "

  • trevor.myburgh.12 - 2012-07-04 11:14

    If your god is dead try mine ,Jesus lives.

      Shirley Van Heerden - 2012-07-04 11:19

      Yap Trevor, He does!! And He is coming again :-) - 2012-07-04 11:21


      alan.gernet - 2012-07-04 11:38

      Mine too Trevor and Shirley.

      mbossenger - 2012-07-04 13:43

      "Jesus lives" - there a quite a few living in Mexico and Spain, I believe...

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 16:05

      Yeah, mine is coming too. One day Zeus will walk the Earth, and the sky shall be as thunder and lightening. He will open up the Heavens and the Glory that is Zeus will pour forth like a torrential downpour and humanity will be rescued from the false prophets and usurper gods!

  • hc12345 - 2012-07-04 11:16

    The amazing thing is that you guys must always knock God. Everything that happens has a cause. If the universe just happened there had to be a cause..God caused it.... The more science discover the more I realize how amazing God is - 2012-07-04 11:22

      "there had to be a cause." - there's the origin of religion right there.

      CaptainGaza - 2012-07-04 11:58

      Well HC, using your logic, something must have caused your god. We know what that cause is, man.

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 16:07

      // Everything that happens has a cause. // A teleology is any philosophical account which holds that final causes exist in nature, meaning that design and purpose analogous to that found in human actions are inherent also in the rest of nature.

  • cindy.burns.35 - 2012-07-04 11:25

    The God Particle...

      Thermophage - 2012-07-04 11:27

      please don't call it that. it makes the religiotts wet in their pants...

      RodinsThinker - 2012-07-04 11:53

      Didn't it start as the "Goddamn particle" because of the challenge of finding it?

      CaptainGaza - 2012-07-04 13:17

      100% Rodins

      Press - 2012-07-05 10:33

      It should actually be the "God Boson" - that would then imply god is Indian . . .

  • Jesse Palmer - 2012-07-04 11:25

    I just wish they'd spend their useful brains 100% dedicated to finding a cure for cancer. - 2012-07-04 11:27

      Different kind (field) of science...different scientists... or are you a plumber/mechanic/doctor/engineer/kindergardenteacher all at once?

      Thermophage - 2012-07-04 11:34

      How do you know this won't help in that very quest?

      ThinkingChick - 2012-07-04 11:41

      Just looooove what you did there. Now, pay attention. 1. These are different types of scientists. 2. There is a great deal than just one type of cancer, which you just lump together. 3. Scientists have, in fact, found cures for certain cancers. For example, Acute Myloid Leukemia (one strain of it) used to be 100% lethal. Now it is cured with a single pill. Tell me again how science is not doing a fabulous job?

      tmbristow - 2012-07-04 12:03

      I'm a Wits student at CERN right now... I think I can comment on almost all of this but it would take too long. Anyway, the point is that there are massive advances in the medical field from this research we are doing. I could link you to thousands of articles about this! Most of the biggest advancements in cancer therapy come from our research!!!!

  • christopher.taliakis - 2012-07-04 11:35

    Put that in your church and worship it :P

      alan.gernet - 2012-07-04 11:39

      Troll alert

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 16:09

      I see what you did there Christopher xD

  • christopher.taliakis - 2012-07-04 11:38

    Dear Mr Charles Dumbwin on behalf of the south African atheist community we would love to invite you to our lunches the cult is waiting to welcome you :) - 2012-07-04 11:40

      Please the time he's finished praying and blessing his porkchop, I'll be dead.

      alan.gernet - 2012-07-04 11:48

      yeah Jman - and when that happens, it will co-incidentally be at the exact time when your problems start! haha. On a serious note - I often wonder what meaning and purpose atheists find in their lives? Must be pretty empty, to my way of thinking. Care to enlighten me?

      ThinkingChick - 2012-07-04 11:53

      Why should our enjoyment of life be diminished by not believing in an after life? Or a deity? I find it enough to be in awe that I am here, when the odds were against it. Enough to look at the night sky, the people I love etc. I do not need a deity to thoroughly enjoy my life.

      alan.gernet - 2012-07-04 11:59

      So there is no meaning to your life then, O Thoughtless One? You are just here by chance, in a world created by chance, enjoying food created by chance, loving people created by chance, looking at the sky created by chance ... and then you are gone. That's empty to me! Maybe only because I have directly experienced God, not by chance. - 2012-07-04 12:07

      @ Alan - Empty and meaningless? Why? Because i don't sit in church on Sundays and pray to a mythical old man in the sky because I made a booboo on Saturday? Please. My life is it. My way. Not some dead guy's way.

      Jared - 2012-07-04 12:07

      @Alan. It's not empty at all. I find most Atheists live from day to day, finding their own purpose, as opposed to living according to a predetermined set of rules. You realise that life is fickle and appreciate the fact that you are here by chance not because of a deity. Though it seems like many atheists are militant, a lot of us are not. Our lives are our own, we find our own way and appreciate our successes and failures, learning therefrom, again, as opposed to attributing it to a deity. Yes there is an element of chance, but it is not related to religion and so forth. I used to be a Christian and find life far more fulfilling and exiting knowing that I am here today, but should I die tomorrow, then that would probably be it for me.

      alan.gernet - 2012-07-04 12:16

      nah Jman - I mean in terms like the reason for your life? Is it just a little 'blip' in time for you to have some percieved fun, and then it is all over for eternity? Why would you spend so much of that precious fun time trying to 'God Bash'? I mean - what would it matter anyway if there is no God or afterlife? Even finding some evidence of how our little microbe called earth was created - what does it matter to you? You never know when you very very last breath will be for ever and ever more ... so dont waste your time here man. Get out there and enjoy your last days having fun!

      alan.gernet - 2012-07-04 12:19

      I hear you Jared, and respect your own right to make your choice. To me though, living a little 'blip' of time on earth would be an empty and meaningless life.

      Jared - 2012-07-04 12:31

      @Alan, I think you misunderstood me. Not all Atheists "God Bash". If it seemed I was trying to do so, I apologise, I am of the opinion that everyone can believe whatever they want to. I was simply stating what I believe. To me, the time I spend here is no mere "blip", in comparison to the universe, yes, indeed it is less than a "blip", but as I experience time, and my life is all the time that I will ever have, it passes slowly at times, quickly at others, but it is MY experience of it which equates to your experience of it. Though religions oft say that life goes on after you die, that part prior to an afterlife, is experienced in the same way that I experience it. We are all human. Alan, It matters to me because I am a curious person, I want to know things work, I want to learn. What am I but an idiot if I chose to accept everything and never try and learn. Even this discovery requires further proofing, it is not definitive. My life is what I make of it, and if I simply party every day and so forth, how much will I really enjoy myself? I am nothing in the grand scheme of the universe, but I am part of it. I would rather take an active role therein than sit on the side and waste time away. Simply because I do not believe in God, you insinuate that I might as well abandon all my personal moral standards, my goals, my dreams, and my time spent trying to attain them, so as to have a moment of fun? That is illogical. - 2012-07-04 12:45

      @ Alan - oh,ok. In that case, yes, its like you said. I have my life and I intend to spend it like I want to, because when I'm dead, well, I'm dead. And that's it. The idea of "afterl;ife" was created by MAN because MAN is (a) scared of death and (b) greedy. Point (a) is natural. Point (b) is clever: "I'm the church, I speak to god. If you give me money and live by my (outdated) rules, I will make sure you "don't die" and live in a "world of milk and honey forever. and ever. but first, you must give me your stuff." Sorry, I don't buy that cr@p. But I agree with you on the "Get out there and enjoy your last days having fun!" - that's exactly what I'm doing. And lying to the "friends of an imaginary friend "every sunday, is not my idea of fun.

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 16:13

      // To me though, living a little 'blip' of time on earth would be an empty and meaningless life. // Which is one of the root causes for all faith in believers; the other is the fear of death.

  • christopher.taliakis - 2012-07-04 11:41

    Dear Mr Charles Dumbwin on behalf of the south African atheist community we would love to invite you to our lunches the cult is waiting to welcome you :)

  • stephen.russo.338 - 2012-07-04 11:41

    And what created this particle?????????????? Will they keep on going to find that which was created by that which was created by that.....etc, etc, etc...........

      Press - 2012-07-05 02:30

      Particle (boson) came about because of the Big Bang and its subsequent interaction with the Higgs Field. It found its way into matter as we know it today during many stages in the evolvement of the physical universe. But stop asking the what went before, before, before . . . question - it serves no purpose and cannot be answered at this time. Dont let it bug you - nothing in your life will change if you dont know the answer to it. For the moment accept everything we (humans) know began with the big bang, that the universe is constantly evolving, that we weren't there in the beginning and that we will probably eventually evolve out of existence as matter continues to transform itself.

      piet.strydom - 2012-07-05 04:37

      @ press - Who has decided that asking "before, before, before" questions serves no purpose? It is fundamental to our understanding of the universe, and our place and function in it. It is one of the earliest questions from natural philosophy, and the first piece of information in the Bible answers that question.

      Press - 2012-07-05 12:58

      Really - the creation story in the bible doesn't even have biblical origins - it was copied from phylosophies developed by others long before the bible era - and the story itself got it completely wrong - you try and explain it in light of the facts that we now know. Try, its not so hard . . . . Do try and answer the before, before, before question without inventing some answer that basically says becaues I dont have a clue there must surely be someone who knows. Hell, while we at it lets add the possibility that he even made it all, and if he can do all that surely he can do the following incredible things for us . . . And no - if you tried to apply your mind and couldnt come up with an answer, you will still exist t'morrow. By the way - what did the Bible say about the Higgs Field that "creates" the Higgs Boson - Because God must have created this field on the first day, otherwise nothing (as we know it) would have existed . . .

      piet.strydom - 2012-07-05 21:34

      @press. So, if the creation story existed before the Bible, can you please tell me where I can read it? I agree, there are a lot of creation myths out there, but not one of them sounds anything like the two creation stories we have in Genesis. I would really like to hear your sources. So if I understand you correctly, you don't like the answer to the "before" question, so you have decided that the question is irrelevant?

  • Barefoot - 2012-07-04 11:42

    I hope most that first heard about the 'God Particle' from Dan Brown know that he's a fiction writer, I've never seen so many comments on a science piece on n24, there was an article about particles-nutrinos- that may travel faster than the speed of light thus rendering most theories obsolete i think not more than 30 comments were made.

      ThinkingChick - 2012-07-04 11:46

      Yes, but when that announcement was made, the guys who detected it basically said: "We have found this thing, but we think there is a problem with our measurement. Please can all you other scientists check for us?" So, they did and it was discredited. The tachyon continues to exist as a theoretical particle. This, on the other hand, is now fact.

      alansmartSnr - 2012-07-04 20:55

      @..Barefoot .. The weak response you refer to about nutrinos, I think, would be because it it was not as important as the Higgs boson discovery and that the implications of this discovery was not realized by the average reader of News24 or they were not aware of the CERN Project and the hassles they had when it was recently damaged. (I am not saying that readers on this forum are, or were, ignorant) But this new advance has so many possibilities and is so exciting for those who are interested in the advancement of cutting edge science.

      Press - 2012-07-05 10:56

      Wasn't Dan Brown all about anti-matter ?

  • monde.sibisi - 2012-07-04 11:49

    And in other news: the Voyager 1 space probe is on the verge of leaving the solar system, being the first man-made object to travel into interstellar space, it is followed by its sister probe Voyager 2 firing its back-up thrusters faster then a speeding bullet at 60 000km/h

      ThinkingChick - 2012-07-04 11:56

      Something very interesting about Voyager is that it is traveling faster than anyone expected it to. And we have no idea why...

      monde.sibisi - 2012-07-04 12:01

      Some how the solar winds have come to zero where it is currently travelling which might be caused by the probe exiting the sun's solar bubble(atmosphere)

      alan.gernet - 2012-07-04 12:02

      Gosh - maybe we don't fully understand God's Universe? LMML

      Thermophage - 2012-07-04 12:14

      Perhaps the particle density in the solar system is lower than predicted and it is encountering less friction. Or it is being gravitationally accelerated?

      Tommy - 2012-07-04 13:13

      Somehow the solar winds have come to zero where it is currently travelling which might be caused by the probe exiting the sun's solar bubble(atmosphere).....if this is true, then this is the most interesting comment I've read on this forum so far. Just think of all the new theories that may arise from his.

      alansmartSnr - 2012-07-04 21:53

      ..@ ThinkingChick..I seem to remember that it was put into a temp orbit around one of our distant planets and that gravity was used to fling it out at a much higher velocity.(thirty something percent the speed of light.) ..@.monde.sibisi..Dont know about the solar winds going down to zero 'cos our sun is unstable when it comes to flares and is constantly generating solar winds up to several light years away.. but then again you may be right. There could be several other reasons why its speed could drasticaly affected either way. Interesting though and I will try and find the correct answer.(Astronomy is my hobby) @

      piet.strydom - 2012-07-05 04:35

      @Alan - The point that Monde is making is that Voyager's current speed cannot be explained by our current understanding of science - which includes the slingshot maneuvers that have been used to help it along.

      Press - 2012-07-05 11:00

      So Piet - because we dont understand what is happening with our Voyager experiment at the moment - should we stop prodding and attribute it to a god thing . . . . ?

      piet.strydom - 2012-07-05 21:37

      @press - You make wierd assumptions, boet. No we should not stop researching. But we should stop being foolhardy about things, and acknowledge if we don't know something.

  • Koeloe - 2012-07-04 12:01

    The more they think they know the more they dont! These are the words you hear from them, could be, might and possibly..... - 2012-07-04 12:08

      "could be, might and possibly....." which are the same words used to explain the existence of god....for over 2000 years now.

      ThinkingChick - 2012-07-04 12:21

      It's called scientific language. Possibly you are not familiar with it? Religions are so adamant, science continually checks itself.

      Koeloe - 2012-07-04 12:25

      Oh you guys are so funny, so desperately trying to justify your pointless view of life. Anyhow I dont have to fight for my God he does quite well for himself. No amount of snide comments will change the fact that he created man in his image and he loves you regardless of your procrastination. Also by the way God does not believe in atheists! - 2012-07-04 12:49

      @ koeloe - " he does quite well for himself." - does he now? Last time I checked, religions were losing followers by the day... not such a strong fighter, you god then ey? "Also by the way God does not believe in atheists" - he does not "believe in atheists"? What does that even mean? God has to "Believe in something"? I thought he knows all? Because he created all? including the atheists? I always find it funny when people claim to KNOW what god feels/thinks and in this new case...believes. fascinating. and sad.

  • sizwe.bwana - 2012-07-04 12:02

    Thank God, I was worried we would never find it. - 2012-07-04 12:07

      hehe. I see what you did there.

      Billy - 2012-07-04 13:45

      lol funny

  • thadelphukem.completely - 2012-07-04 12:05

    Charles Dumbwin... You are a complete chop!!!Perhaps if your brain was as big as a subatomic particle you would actually make sense... Let me put it this way... "Ive got nothing against God... Its his fan club I cant stand"

  • christopher.taliakis - 2012-07-04 12:08

    Atheists don't bash god i could never bash that which was never there, i do not lack direction and purpose in my life i just live it , understanding what silly evolved animals we are the god myth holds us back by creating holy wars on whose imaginary friend is better we still kill each other with man made objects no holy divine light has ever killed another military force, just people killing people and if there was a god how about he starts paying some attention have we not dropped enough nuclear bombs for him to notice how messed up and evil this race is .

  • colin.langley - 2012-07-04 12:14

    WOW!... ABSOLUTELY AMAAAAAAZING! 8 BILLION DOLLARS TO BUILD THE HYDRON COLLIDER JUST TO PROVE IF SOMETHING DOES OR DOES NOT EXIST! Science...slapping poverty and starvation in the face for a thousand years. - 2012-07-04 12:16

      It will save money later....

      tmbristow - 2012-07-04 12:21

      Don't be so shortsighted! There are soooo many things that come out of this! It's not just about finding particles... Some spin offs that come from CERN and particle physics that you might not know about - and another thing you might know about - the INTERNET.

      Thermophage - 2012-07-04 12:25

      lol...what is a "hydron"? listen well to tmbristow, at least he knows what he is talking about. YOU have no idea how much this research will benefit humanity currently and in the future. The money is nothing compared to what we will get from it one day.

      Malcolm - 2012-07-04 13:03

      I bet you don't care that millions a year are spent so that your favorite rugby or whatever other sport you are into) team can kick a ball aimlessly around, that your favorite rugby player earns millions a year while people are poor and starve. I bet you don't complain about the millions spent on the science that went into the computer that you are using now, or your latest iphone. I bet you don't complain about the salary you get for your probably pointless job that does nothing for humanity. Yet let some scientists (who earn far less a year than some ball kicking ape I might add) make some real accomplishments that will actually benefit us all and you DARE to question the costs simply because you are too short sighted and daft to put things in perspective. Had that money not been spent on science do you really think it would have been spent on the hungry? (For whom there is already enough food - only greedy politicians prevent them from getting it; not science) Or do you think instead it would have been spent on a jet for another useless politician or a car for some ball kicking ape? Do you think at all? Shame on you, you sir are a hypocrite of the worst degree, and ignorant to boot. A horrid combination, I suggest you open your small mind and educate yourself.

      harley.quin.334 - 2012-07-04 13:36

      christianity... slapping poverty and starvation in the face for 2000 years

      mbossenger - 2012-07-04 13:40

      Bearpup - maybe you should look at the cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and compare them to the price of the LHC.

      colin.langley - 2012-07-04 15:09

      Malcolm, for someone who is so fast at waving your loose tongue, could please refrain from trying to write like a 18th century poet. I am not ignorant. I do not have a small mind. What i do have is common sense. Now let's look at it from an entirely different point of view. For $8 billion we could probably build thousands laboratories. Hell, we could give each school on the African continent a pretty well maintained science department. Now can you imagine how many bright and intelligent minds that are out there that we do not know of? There are probably a thousands of Einsteins or non linear creative minds that could solve many problems. So if the old saying "charity begins at home" has no impact on your sensibilities you would realize that 8 billion has gone to building one facility to satisfy the ego's of top scientists and physicists. And as you can read they said "may have" in the article. So they do not know if it really is the Higgs Boson particle. I cannot, in any way endorse the amount of money spent on this project. And if it does benefit mankind will it be for the better of the human race or to it's detriment? And have the gall to tell me "how DARE you". You sir, are an imbecile. Evolution obviously skipped a generation when it came to you. Look back, not so long scientists split the atom. Look where that got us, weapons of mass destruction, Chernobyl and recently Fukushima. Nothing good has come out of this and please, don't you DARE tell me how to think!

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 16:41

      // Science...slapping poverty and starvation in the face for a thousand years. // Please don't knock science when your own pope (assuming you're of the Christian denomination - apologies if you're not) sits upon a million + dollar gold and ivory throne while millions of people starve to death each year. Science has not only doubled a human being's life expectancy but increased the state of living around the world ten fold (or more) in the last 200 years. It has created a global economy, developed medicines and technologies that help mankind. I watched and read about little Isabella "Pippie" Kruger who recently underwent extensive skin grafting after she sustained burns to 80% (I think) of her body. Thanks to science, she has a shot at life. Yes, science is expensive. But that is the price of progress. Tell me, what has religion done? Not much I dare say. // Hell, we could give each school on the African continent a pretty well maintained science department. // Why should the European governments (and the private sponsors for the LHC) spend their money building science departments in Africa? That's like expecting the USA to pay for education in South America. The fact that your opening comment insults science and the work CERN is doing speaks volumes of your ignorance into WHAT CERN is actually doing. Might be a good idea to read up on their various research projects and find out what it is they are trying to accomplish and how it benefits us in the short/long term

      tmbristow - 2012-07-04 17:24

      Wow, bearpup, I don't even know what to say to you... I really don't think you realise how important this research is! Small labs cannot solve everything and they will have far less impact on society than something like the LHC. I cannot think of any situations where this has provided us with something terrible. Particle physics saves lives, forwards society, promotes innovation.... You have no reason/ right to be calling other people imbeciles. I am actually based at CERN. You obviously do not realise the gravity of this. I honestly feel very sorry for you :(

      alansmartSnr - 2012-07-04 22:15

      ..@ bearpup .. Jislaaik.. never thought anybody would be so dumb as to shout out his ignorance so loud. There are hundreds of reasons why they built the LHC and the spin offs have already been amazing apart from the latest discovery. It's said that the knowledge gained already is enough to keep the best scientist busy for the next 2 years. Several medical benefits are already being used as a result of only testing the collider. If you want to get rid of poverty and starvation get rid of that shower head hanging-dick prez and his co-corrupters out of office and think before you vote again. Voting DA would be an intelligent choice but me thinks you are to dumb to grasp even that. Have a nice day

  • lostand.damnedskeptic - 2012-07-04 13:23

    cheers, to progress and discovery! well done to all that were involved.

      tmbristow - 2012-07-04 17:25

      Thank you! :D

  • dani.fick.7 - 2012-07-04 13:40

    You all seem to forget that this discovery has absolutely nothing to do with refuting any religion... it's a scientific discovery made with the intention of furthering scientific understanding of the observable universe. Stop peddling theism,whether it be atheism, monotheism or polytheism.

      jackal666.daniel - 2012-07-04 13:56


  • - 2012-07-04 14:01

    It is a pity News24 did not carry the full article from Reuters but broke it down into several. One major point that is not in this article is that while it 'may' be the Higgs boson particle "what scientists do not yet know from the latest findings is whether the particle they have discovered is the Higgs boson as described by the Standard Model. It could also be a variant of the Higgs idea or an entirely new subatomic particle that could force a rethink on the fundamental structure of matter." Imagine that, a variant that behave differently than described in the Standard Model. Or better still an entirely new subatomic particle that could force a rethink on the fundamental structure of matter." While this discovery should be hailed scientifically, I am not sure what all the Atheists are jumping up and down about. Its discovery, in no way, proves the 'Big Bang Theory' nor the non-existence of God. In fact, at the moment it does not even prove that the "Standard Model" theory is anywhere near correct. So, $8 billion, yes $8 billion, later science has proved the existence of a subatomic particle. What this does is allows for countless more billions of dollars to go and find out how it actually behaves. And they saying religion is a license to print money.

      gerhard.vanhelden - 2012-07-04 14:37

      I agree Ozzy, while this is great for science, I have no idea why this is at all relevant for a religious debate. Looking at the comments for and against religion makes me think w.t.f. Really?

  • sycomachinery - 2012-07-04 15:06

    Sounds to me someone is worried about funding money.

  • theo.reinecke.9 - 2012-07-04 15:29

    I would like to ask a question to everyone here. Purely out of interest, what is it about creationists, Christianity and God that ticks atheists off the most?

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 16:52

      The fact that religion is forced into the minds of children before they are even remotely capable of truly thinking for themselves is for many atheists a serious matter of concern. There is also the fact that such a blatantly obvious superstition is still in existence today despite the level of education and science we enjoy. It doesn't tick us off, per say. It's more the fact that religion is seen as a step back in thinking; reverting to a way of thinking that was common 2,000 years ago - that is, the belief that what can't be explained is the work of god(s).

      piet.strydom - 2012-07-04 17:21

      @skootzie - And what ticks of this particular Christian, is the atheists' lack of understanding of religion, and in particular Christianity. The Christian belief is NOT that inexplicable things are explained by God. The basic tenets of Christianity is that human relationships are broken. They are broken because Man and man makes the wrong choices when choosing between right and wrong, good an evil. Further, that Christ, and the teachings of Christ, provides the solution to this problem: Love God with all your heart and all your soul, and your neighbour like yourself. I find it extremely interesting, that in the huge noise created by atheists on these pages, it sounds very often more like they are anti - Christ, than that they are anti-god. In that sense Christ is still the focus of your existence, no matter how hard you deny Him.

  • marc.roos.56 - 2012-07-04 15:56

    Can a Higgs Boson be eaten and if yes, where can i get some.

      nico.loubser.9 - 2012-07-06 11:38

      No, you can't eat it. It is too heavy.

  • nom.deplume.969 - 2012-07-04 16:05

    So who decided this was the "God Particle" anyways? I mean if all it does is be "a" source for weight and matter then what is so godly about it? Does it teach us any truth? Does it teach us what it means to be righteous? to love one another? or is it just another term used to create division amongst men? and for some men to cling to in there bid to futher alienate themselves from God? Yes, God cant be "seen" like we see each other, but His attributes can be evidenced (creation of the earth, creation of light (cosmic light before the sun was around...etc etc) and it is all fully supported by the biblical account. Is it so implausible that a being claiming to be a God is unable to create and destroy as he pleases? Hmmm, I think that people who discount God dont have an iota of understanding when it comes to comprehending godlikeness. And then they take that limited understanding and apply their biases and personal preferences of what a god should be to the God of the bible and then you get the "How can a loving God..." type questions, resulting in the subsequent disbelief...Meanwhile, you are really only practicing idolatry...dancing perfectly in tune to the song of their father, the Devil. And you dont have to believe me, but deep down you know its true, but you hate it, so you fight it tooth and nail...real hardhearted "eye for an eye" kinda stuff...

      skootzie - 2012-07-04 16:56

      The Higgs boson is often referred to as the "God particle" by the media,[75] after the title of Leon Lederman's popular science book on particle physics, The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What Is the Question?[76][77] While use of this term may have contributed to increased media interest,[77] many scientists dislike it, since it overstates the particle's importance, not least since its discovery would still leave unanswered questions about the unification of quantum chromodynamics, the electroweak interaction, and gravity, as well as the ultimate origin of the universe.[75][78] Lederman said he gave it the nickname "The God Particle" because the particle is "so central to the state of physics today, so crucial to our understanding of the structure of matter, yet so elusive,"[75][76][79] but jokingly added that a second reason was because "the publisher wouldn't let us call it the Goddamn Particle, though that might be a more appropriate title, given its villainous nature and the expense it is causing."[76] Source:

  • tatsee - 2012-07-04 20:24

    To most people there is nothing at all important about the Higgs boson. Most folk (me included) don't even know what a boson is and would laugh in your face if you started trying to talk to them about anything regarding "all the boring science stuff". If it doesn't involve Idols,Tom Cruise,Manchester United or the latest Hollywood "scandal" then forget it. Hardly anyone cares.The only thing that peeks public interest in the Higgs boson is its religious sounding nickname which allows for the crazies on both sides of the fence to sling mud at each other.

      LanfearM - 2012-07-06 08:44

      I am sad to admit that you are right.

  • dakey.ras.73 - 2012-07-05 00:49

    What if scientists don't find the Higgs boson? The general consensus among physics academics is that the Higgs field and boson exists, according to Archer. "It just makes sense within the framework that we've got everything set up in, given that everything else that we can describe and we can see seems to be described in this simple way," says Archer. Martin Archer believes a failure to find the Higgs boson would be even more exciting than discovering the elusive particle.

  • bashin.monyela - 2012-07-05 00:49

    To all the atheists, just quickly google \ the last dying words of famous atheists\ .

      merven.halo - 2012-07-05 07:32

      99.9% of those stories are from the Christians lying for Jesus crowd. They are all idiots.

      bashin.monyela - 2012-07-05 08:31

      I'm just glad that you read that for yourself, make of it what you want.

  • Diran - 2012-07-05 08:10

    If the Gods come down to earth, great they can help us stop poverty, war, starvation etc... If Scientist discover the beginning of time, great we can travel further into space, find new planets, create fuel that don't polute our world. Lets be happy, as humans we are going forward in life, discovery both religious and scientific is great. Human evolution in progress. In the end, we all have an average life span of 70 to 120 years, and thats if you really lucky, discovery or not. Live Your Lives..........

      Christopher - 2012-07-05 09:18

      "..discovery both religious and scientific is great..." Religious discoveries?

  • pisciotta - 2012-07-05 13:06

    Wow they may have finally found the "Goddamn particle" as Leon Lederman wished to call it due to the cost in finding it amongst other things. But for fear of offending the public and perhaps loosing funding he droped the "damn" in his published work "The God Particle.....". And this has taken a whole different and uninvited path by the religious. Most on the project regret the introduction of the word "God" in all this. Higgs himself is an athiest and didn't want diety involved. Facinating story of human behavior around a marvelous scientific achievement. Could this be our 21st century monolith?

  • morwen.fourie - 2012-07-05 13:42

    a QUESTION: where do you believe that UFO's and psychic abilities, prophecies that have come true and ghosts fit into all of this. As it has become a religion vs non-believer scenario, I would love to hear both sides answer

  • bobby.pandaram - 2012-07-05 22:24

    any scientific discovery does not prove the non existance of GOD. I mean, we discovered the atom, we discovered the ameoba, we discovered fossils, we discovered the world was not flat, we discovered other planets, we discovered the Law of relitivity etc. All these discoveries has not proved the non exisitance of GOD. On the other hand - from Chaos to complexity (the fundamental of evolution) still cannot explain how lower orders still exist when everything was supposed to evelove into a higher order. some animals or plants still roam the earth from way back then. What about the evolution of eveolution itself. First we were told that the change happened gradually and then we were told that it happened in bursts. What will man evelove into. we have been man for a very long time according to evolutionists. I am sure we are way due for another species higher than man.

  • pages:
  • 1