Religious spat in cyberspace

2012-09-01 22:33

Paris - Centuries-old theological disputes have broken out in cyberspace as religions aim to influence the future presentation of faith on the internet.

The forum for the rivalry is not the pulpit or church bulletin, but the website of ICANN, the corporation that oversees the internet address system and now wants to expand it beyond the usual .com, .org or .net domains.

When ICANN began accepting applications for new names early this year, bids came for extensions such as .catholic, .islam and .bible. Not far behind were critics who challenged many applicants' right to monopolise those and other religious terms.

"I respectfully ask you not to award .bible to a bunch of hardcore Bible-thumpers," wrote one critic of an application by the American Bible Society to manage that extension.

Questioning a Turkish IT company's bid for the .islam domain, Fahd Batayneh of Jordan's National Information Technology Centre asked how it could ensure no pornographers or Muslim extremists would use names with this ending?

ICANN is accepting comments on these and other applications for another month and will then evaluate the bids for new extensions, known as top level domains (TLDs).

First results are due next summer. A group awarded a TLD can manage that domain exclusively, renting out addresses that use its extension and rejecting bids it considers unsuitable.

ICANN can't 

The religious problems facing this 21st century project are as old as the schisms and heresies that have haunted faiths for ages. Who speaks for Islam? Does the Vatican have a monopoly on the word "catholic"? How should one interpret the Bible?

"I don't think I can solve issues that have been going on for centuries," Akram Atallah, interim head of ICANN, told Reuters by telephone from its Los Angeles headquarters.

"Our goal, at the end of the day, is to provide innovation in the domain name system."

Website owners are now restricted to a few dozen TLDs such as .com and country code domains such as Many of the 1 930 applications for new TLDs came from companies, including internet giants such as Amazon and Google.

If there are rival bids for the same TLD, ICANN has panels of experts to consider legal, financial and technical factors in making the decision to award a domain name. A dispute resolution process exists if an losing applicant disagrees.

But there won't be geeks consulting Gospels to decide who can have a TLD such as .church.

"We don't look into whether the Vatican has the right to the .catholic name," Atallah said. "Hopefully, the process will get to a conclusion that is satisfying to the majority."

Saudis oppose, Christians squabble

Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, seems to see no hope of a consensus on religious TLDs and opposes them all.

Its Communications and Information Technology Commission filed 163 comments, opposing not only TLDs with Muslim terms such as Islam, halal and Shia but also Catholic and Bible.

It also criticised bids for sex, gay, wine, virgin, dating, porn and other terms that go against its strict moral code.

The Vatican's application for exclusive use of .catholic drew criticism from members of several Protestant churches who also use the term, which comes from the Greek for "universal".

"This request is a move by a powerful group to squelch the voices and rights of other Christians," wrote Dave Daubert, pastor of Zion Lutheran Church in Elgin, Illinois.

Some comments asked if the large Life Covenant Church, based in Oklahoma, would share the .church name it applied for with other Christians who did not hold its evangelical beliefs.

"If something as basic as the Ten Commandments can't be agreed upon, how can the TLD be operated fairly?" one asked.

The American Bible Society would share the .bible domain with "individuals and groups who, regardless of faith, have a healthy respect for the Bible", spokesperson Geoffrey Morin said.

Clerics aren't the only ones trying to get into the game.

AGITSys, an Istanbul-based IT company, said it wanted to create "a quality online space for the Muslim faithful" with domain names such as .islam and .halal and would allow Sunnis, Shi'ites and members of other schools of Islam to use it.

"They didn't consult anybody in the Islamic community," said Batayneh from Jordan. "This application should have come from the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation in Jeddah."

Some religions seem to have kept out of the fray entirely.

There were no applications for .buddhist, .hindu or .jewish.

  • fawzia.bayat - 2012-09-01 23:31

    My suggestion keep all words with religious connotations out of it. Allaah (God in english ) is not deaf,blind , dumb. ; in fact HE IS THE ALL-KNOWING , THE ALL AWARE , THE SUBTLE.just a couple of HIS countless attributes. and we foolish humans do need to state our affliation to the all & sundry to prove that we are sincere in our relationship to THE ONE CREATOR.

      tabib.asnan.3 - 2012-09-02 12:35

      Please watch 'confronting the evidence' on youtube, mememan. Its very easy to hate the world, very difficult to examine the facts.

      originaljm - 2012-09-02 16:17

      I'm sorry, have you met this "allah" ? Have christians met "god"? Fairy tales for adults, ignorance is bliss I guess.

      doug.norris.581 - 2012-09-03 00:32

      Google: "the religion of peace" for religious quotes and deeds Some extracts for those who do not believe. Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (8:55) If Allah wished, he could provide guidance to every soul: If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance (32:13) But, instead he sets a veil over the hearts and coverings over their ears: Verily We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this, and over their ears, deafness, if thou callest them to guidance, even then will they never accept guidance. (18:57) – See also 17:46 & 45:23 No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand (10:100) Not only are you the vilest of animals through your disbelief but you are going to be prevented from believing. There is nothing loving or compassionate about this.

      yvonne.styger.3 - 2012-09-03 14:08

      Lets be reasonable and accommodating. Give the atheists theirs. I think they should all feel quite comfortable and @ home under .fool

  • Stewart Croucamp - 2012-09-01 23:55

    Damn religion. It is the downfall of the world.

      jody.beggs - 2012-09-03 08:54

      Damn the man , save the planet from religion.

      pierre.pretorius.370 - 2012-09-03 16:47

      I agree. Religion can destroy the earth and its people. Faith and trust in Jesus on the other hand is the only thing that can save the world.

      jody.beggs - 2012-09-03 16:55

      @pierre.pretorius.370 FAil... Jesus came to fulfill the prophesies and prophets of the buy bull , not change them. Jesus was not the only savior at the time , who was risen from the dead. Besides a sacrifice is permanent , is Jesus still dead or enjoying heaven ? Does that mean god does not know what a sacrifice is ?

  • lala.kunene - 2012-09-02 00:42

    Im opening my OWN church Sooooooooon!

  • eddy.deepfield - 2012-09-02 01:52

    Some wise man said " Science flies you to the moon Religion flies you into buildings" i think it was Victor Stenger.

      tabib.asnan.3 - 2012-09-02 12:36

      One man said, oil makes you kill and blame muslims for it. Watch confronting the evidence on youtube.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 14:25

      @talib Sensitive or what? We condemn Muslims and Islamic countries because of their continuous violations of human rights, the suppression of women, the rape of under age girls, the constant daily killing of innocents all in the name of Allah. You guys yell and scream and parade up and down about Blair, Israel or Amerika but never do we hear a peep from you about the atrocities committed by Muslims in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Indonesia, Nigeria, Kenya, Somalia, Bahrain, Mali and virtually every other country in the World where there is a sizable Muslim population. No a peep. Never a protest. And you whine about being persecuted.

      tabib.asnan.3 - 2012-09-02 17:53

      Very sensitive when I see people murdered in the name of nationality and false idealism. I see atheism murder by the millions and claim it was due to religious intolerance. I see pushing of evolutionism that was laughed at since the discovery of DNA. RELIGION TEACHES US ABOUT THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT. ATHEISM TEACHES US SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST. Think.

      joe.soap.1806253 - 2012-09-03 07:32

      // see atheism murder by the millions and claim it was due to religious intolerance. // Source? Or stfu, gtfo and lying for Allah/Jesus/Flying Pig Dogs

      jody.beggs - 2012-09-03 08:56

      #tabib.asnan.3 lying for allah. Is it true he deflowered a nine year old girl ? Is he your role model ?

      arthur.hugh - 2012-09-03 09:15

      Talib please name on self proclaimed Atheist in this century that has "murdered" millions. You are talking absolute bull. While your religion is stoning gays and women to death I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

      zs5zk - 2012-09-03 10:08

      Well said Eddy, had a GOOD giggle here now. "Patent" that sentence on your name. It will become a famous saying.

      jason.roberts.14224 - 2012-09-03 13:49

      This is the problem with commentators. I pop in here once a week to see what is happening outside the economies and financial institutions, and see comments made by complete uninformed idiots. You have individuals like zaatheist, Mememan who clearly lack the indepth knowledge of specific fields, and their only goal is to aggressively force atheism on readers, by trying to criticize religions. I really wonder what sort of intellectual individual would actually listen to these moronic individuals. This is normally the difference between my usual sites and these general opinionated sites, learned individuals (that have proven themselves by achieving high level qualifications)versus News24 likes of zaatheist, mememan, who clearly have read a couple of books, stats and now believe they know every detail and angle on religions.......Laughable…..

      jason.roberts.14224 - 2012-09-03 15:28

      @Mememan. I had almost left the site and saw this response. Frankly, I am wondering if I am stooping to an all-time low by responding to you, but nevertheless. Your comment is exactly what I am writing about, above. You assume to know everything? Should you have achieved a recognised level of skill, expertise, knowledge at an institution as I have (For the sake of not drawing any attention, I shall not mention it now, but would gladly email it to you personally, provided you send me yours? I would love to see what qualifications you have earned), and have engrossed yourself with highly intellectual individuals, you would know that your comments are based on emotion. Yes, there are comments of a similar nature by other individuals but you resort to an aggressive & emotional attack which automatically rings up a defensive response. No learned individual would take that path, as intellect & reason speaks louder than attacking emotion in any debate. That is the cowards approach. 1.” I would truly enjoy a debate with someone like yourself who has something to add” - I don’t claim to know about religion, but have sat down with those who have earned my respect (i.e doctorates), and frankly before I even think about making time, you need to prove your knowledge (as I have stated above)

      jason.roberts.14224 - 2012-09-03 15:29

      2. “Can you do that for me? Or, do you just have criticism with nothing to back it up with?” – Another assumption, believing that nobody on this planet could prove you wrong, yet I have seen quite a few answers to your questions, you are just afraid to acknowledge that there is a chance you might be wrong on certain issues. I have viewed & attended debates with the likes of international doctors and professors. That is why I know that your attacks are pathetic; many of the questions you asked have been answered. You rejoice and thrive on the knowledge that those who read these comments are not aware of this fact. Fact is, interpretation plays a major factor in understanding this subject, which you clearly have disregarded as an option. You are too focused on believing that Atheism “is the one”. Should you meet the calibre, I am more than willing to debate and broadcast the debate to anybody you would like, but for the sake of my reputation, should you agree to confirm that I do qualify and not to publish who I really am, just name the time and place.

      jody.beggs - 2012-09-03 15:32

      @jason.roberts.14224 really and killing for religion is ok with you. Blind faith is a sin and believing like a child will only get you treated like one. The fact that you believe in something means you know its not real, just by the definition of faith. Atheism does not indoctrinate children , take tithes , hide pedophiles in there congregation or even in places of power , atheism does not kill for atheism. Can you say the same for theism ? All you do is show xians and religious turds how stupid they are , while when they were in power , they literally killed every other point of view. What is the greater of the two evils ? Its time religion stayed at home and in the church until the is evidence that god exists ! Damn the man. Its easy saying every one else is wrong for stick up for religion but I get you don't think logically. "This is normally the difference between my usual sites and these general opinionated sites, learned individuals (that have proven themselves by achieving high level qualifications)versus News24 likes of zaatheist, mememan, who clearly have read a couple of books, stats and now believe they know every detail and angle on religions" Probably creationist sites ... You seem yo think we don't know the buy bull , yet we know it better than you. We critique it , you think its divine and god inspired ! Man made god in his own image !

      hector.barbossa.52 - 2012-09-03 16:19

      @jason.roberts.14224. Dude .. build a bridge and get over yourself .. How many times can you elude to your "education" and status BLA BLA .. Me thinks the lady (jason) doth protest to much ...

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-09-03 19:03

      Brilliant Jason, brilliant. My advice, don’t waste your time. Every non-atheist who knows Meme, knows he can never admit he’s wrong, then he claims he remains to be proven wrong by evading valid points…blah, blah. Trust me Jason, a lot of people actually know who Meme is, he ain’t that intelligent and ain’t that qualified. Just another sucker who was probably abused by a religious parent or priest that followed their religion wrongly. boohoo....

      jody.beggs - 2012-09-04 09:26

      @jennifer.bosman.9 what a chop , you know us atheists so well. We know your buy bull better than you , we don't bow to it , we critique it and understand what its trying to say , your not allowed to do that , you need help to read and interpret the buy bull , otherwise you end up confused. Like now... By the way how was MemeMan wrong ?

      karien.haasbroek - 2012-09-04 10:55

      Funny thing is, in the end it wasn't the modern natural sciences or more specifically evolution theory that convinced me to leave my religious past behind me, but rather my objective and scientific studies into religion itself. I studied clinical psychology and Religious Science at varsity. Note: Religious Science as opposed to Theology, and true factual provable knowledge about the origins of religion saved me from religion. The problem with religion is this: the vast majority of religious people don't even know or understand the religion that they profess to be their own. They don't know or even bother to find out where it REALLY comes from or to understand the full implications of its teachings. When they come accross something that puzzles them: "God works in mysterious ways" or "You should believe like a child" etc. Sorry, but I can't believe like a child does because I'm not childish enough any more. I have grown up.

      Havokreeka - 2012-09-04 12:28

      Guys relax, we should be used to religiots like Talib(an) spouting bull. They've been trained to do it for over 2000 years.

      Havokreeka - 2012-09-04 12:36

      Jason, so if I had a doctorate is "fairy-tales" you'd respect me more than if I had a degree in quantum physics? Your logic is extremely flawed. Judging by your posts, you must also be religious. As you're clearly sitting on a high-horse thinking you're better than everyone. Kindly go choke on a bible.

  • zaatheist - 2012-09-02 05:36

    Hey, we are in the 21st century and it won't be long before all these religions just fade away into history. Of course they are bothered by the internet as the free flow of ideas and scepticism destroys stupidity. Some religious domain names ain't gonna save them.

      Charms - 2012-09-02 15:25

      I wouldnt worry to much about this Meme as we know that porn and other simular "sin" would not be aloud on these sites...and we all know "religious" sots are the ones that watches it the most...

      willie.botha.9480 - 2012-09-02 19:01

      @zaatheist. Thank goodness you are not stereotyping believers like myself. I am glad you are unbiased towards all kinds of people. You would have really looked idiotic if you were doing the opposite. O wait ...

      zaatheist - 2012-09-03 06:27

      Willie Instead of whinging about it would you care to explain how your particular brand superstition and belief in the supernatural differs from other. Religion, and Christinanity in particular, is in decline in the developed world. You may not like it. You may pay and rave against it. But it is a fact nevertheless.

      joe.soap.1806253 - 2012-09-03 07:36

      MemeMan: At least it'll make it easier for the News24 debatee's to distinguish between fact and creationist mumbo-jumbo. Religious: "rabble rabble rabble! See my source:" Atheists: "stfu, bad source. gtfo."

  • douglas.reid.921 - 2012-09-02 06:53

    If there were a god the only reason it would remain concealed is because it would hate to have to interact with the disgusting thing called humanity. Maybe when humans are extinct then the earth will be a better place and animals left may enjoy the visitation of the god.

      ari.potah - 2012-09-02 09:02

      Second that! Prince Philip, Duke of Windsor is reputed to have said: In the event that I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus" Seems he has the same opinion . . .

      joe.soap.1806253 - 2012-09-03 07:38

      Douglas, I can just picture that happening. Humanity finally dies off and god reappears, looks around and snorts derisively: "Well, that was a f%^& up."

      zs5zk - 2012-09-03 10:21

      If "God" made everything Perfect, Then who created Humans on Earth and in all of the Millions of Solar systems as the Creator can not create Imperfection. If he did, then he is not that Perfect.

  • trevor.anderson.330 - 2012-09-02 06:59

    Nothing but nothing other than faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and accepting him as your personal saviour will get you into the kingdom of God. So why the fuss over .com or any other domain religion is corrupt man made. Faith is supream. God bless you all

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 08:53

      Any proof for those assertions? I thought not. Christianity is just another death cult for the feeble minded. There is no god. Our purpose is defined by ourselves. There are however, lots of feeble minded scared humans who need to feel there is some purpose to their small existance. If you embrace the reality of our existance, the fear disappears. Where were you before you were born? Same place you go to when you are dead.

      johnny.potatoes61 - 2012-09-02 09:40

      The Jews called; they want their religion back.

      crracker.crackerr - 2012-09-02 10:31

      You are wrong, trevor. The chosen 144,000 never even had an inkling of Jesus. We know that they are all male virgins. One requirment. 12,000 chosen and sealed out of each of the 12 tribes of Israelites. 10 of those tribes have disappeared more than 2000 years ago. So your claim about Jesus being the only path must be a fallacy.

      wordis.word.1 - 2012-09-02 14:40

      trevor, you're wrong.

      press.enter.12 - 2012-09-02 21:43

      Trevor you are following false prophets . . . .

      huck.starr - 2012-09-03 07:46

      @mememan You can laugh now because there is nothjing wrong with collecting money for God to do his work in Jesus name. You athiests are just jealous because you have no beliefs and never care for or help anybody. Just yourselves. We help the poor and bring them to Jesus with the money we collect.

      LanfearM - 2012-09-03 08:50

      @ huck.starr - Jealous? Now that is a new one. Hating god, working for satan, scum of the earth, etc. all that I've heard before iro atheists, but *jealous*? Are you insane? You take the money and bring "poor people to Jesus". We take our own money and help the poor by trying to provide them with food, shelter and opportunities for education and work. Yup, I am sure it wonderful to sit and starve in a shack but at least you have your bible! What bullshyte.

      arthur.hugh - 2012-09-03 09:17

      Johnny - Hahahaha brilliant man, just snorted my coffee haha!

      arthur.hugh - 2012-09-03 09:19

      huck.starr you thieving little criminal, I am Atheist and have been doing charity work for the last 17 years. I have built schools and repaired them, bought buses for homes, fixed homes for abused kids, AIDS orphans, fed and clothed hundreds of thousands, raised over R180k a year so how about you shove your sanctimonious Bible where your holiness don't shine punk.

  • J.Stephen.Whiteley - 2012-09-02 07:37

    Evangelism is the death of true religion

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 08:45

      WTF is true religion? Which of the 30000+ Christian cults is the true religion? Which of the many Muslin cults is the true religion? Which of the many Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, whatever cults is the true religion? Guess what. They cannot all be the true religion so the likelihood is that none are. In fact most likley is that none of the gods worshipped by them exist.

      huck.starr - 2012-09-03 07:43

      God tells us to Evangelize do you are just plain wrong. Only those who are truly BORN AGAIN and accept JESUS as there SAVIOR will go to heaven. You need to rethink buddy or you are headed for the hot place which wont be very nice for you.

      arthur.hugh - 2012-09-03 09:21

      huck.starr are your stealing the poor's money for Jesus or for yourself? Some day we will cross paths and I'll be sure to have your scrawny ass put in jail.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-09-03 13:59

      @zaatheist. So because there are so many different religions and sects. The best solution is that none of them are right...Excuse me....BWAHAHAHAHA!!!....and you claim to know so much?....Wait, you somehow remind me of a word in the dicitionary....Hmmmm....."idiot". You can clearly see that based on the amount of comments supporting a religion, your idea that religion is falling, is putting you in an aggressive state.

      karien.haasbroek - 2012-09-04 11:20

      Prove to me that Hell exists, and then I might try to force myself to believe all sorts of bull shyte like you do huck.starr. If you cannot prove the existence of hell, why should I intentionally try and do my very best to con myself into believing the bible?

  • charmaine.paterson1 - 2012-09-02 07:37


  • roslyndavidrose - 2012-09-02 08:36

    If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny! My God doesn't need a domain name tocommunicate with His people.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 08:47

      How does he do it then? Does he actually talk to them? What does his voice sound like? Echoey? What accent does he have? Israeli? What does he say? I am dying to know.

      Billy - 2012-09-02 09:56

      @zaatheist - Dead, you will know. It will be too late then for you...

      imraan.chothia.7 - 2012-09-02 12:10

      zaatheist, firstly learn to respect other ppls God/s. God talks to his ppl with action, look around you... The beauty of God and the reality of God is everywhere

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 14:29

      billy.bunter.779 Ag shame. Do you really believe that? How unfortunate. How pathetic. How infantile. You are not the first to threaten me with an afterlife in hell. You may use your hell to frighten little children but is has no affect on me. You guys are so positive they know who the god of the universe is, who the source of all evil is and what exactly happens in the hours following my last heartbeat. I am not impressed by these threats from regular human beings no different tfrom me who claim to know that which it is impossible for us to know. I'm genuinely confounded by your presumption that you have more ability to obtain afterlife information than I am.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 14:30

      imraan.chothia.7 All people deserve respect, but not all ideas do. I don’t respect the idea that a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead. I don’t respect the idea that we should follow a "Prophet" who at the age of 53 had sex with a nine-year old girl, and ordered the murder of whole villages of Jews because they wouldn’t follow him. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.– Thomas Jefferson Any time someone says you can’t criticize their beliefs, it’s because their beliefs are too weak to withstand scrutiny.

      walter.lebza - 2012-09-02 17:23

      Christ in you, the hope of glory. He said ''The world will seek me and they won't find me, because I go to the father. But you will know me because I will be with you and even in you.'' talking to his desciples. ''My sheep hear my voice''. The reason you never heard his voice is because you're not his desciple yet. Believe it or not, I personally heard his voice, he speaks with a man's voice, sweeter than a mother's voice, more real than you are real and I can't guarantee that he will speak with you the way he spoke to me. Just repent, confess your sins to him (Jesus Christ), feed the poor if you can, love everyone including your enemy, bless those who curse you, do good to everyone, just be a good person, Thats pure religion.

      press.enter.12 - 2012-09-02 21:47

      Walter Lebza - remember to take your pills before you go to bed, will be less voices around to disturb your sleep . . . . . .

      doug.norris.581 - 2012-09-03 00:07

      zaatheist posted "Any time someone says you can’t criticize their beliefs, it’s because their beliefs are too weak to withstand scrutiny." Islam doesn't exactly condone criticism. The Qur'an: Qur'an (6:93) - "Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against Allah?" (Apparently not the adulterer or others for whom death is proscribed). Qur'an (33:57) - "Lo! those who malign Allah and His messenger, Allah hath cursed them in this world and the Hereafter, and hath prepared for them the doom of the disdained" Qur'an (33:61) - [continues from above] "Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

      huck.starr - 2012-09-03 07:17

      @Billy.Bunter Amen to that. God has noted these SATANIST athiests who mock HIS name and they are going to be judged and cast in to HELL FIRE. They may laugh and mock now but just wait because we are going to be in Heaven and will watch them be tortured for ever and ever.

      joe.soap.1806253 - 2012-09-03 08:00

      // If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny! My God doesn't need a domain name tocommunicate with His people. // No, but he - for his own supernatural reasons - needs a church that wants your money. // @zaatheist - Dead, you will know. It will be too late then for you... // Ooh, threats .. I always find these amusing. Much in the same way my baby sister used to threaten me with eternal hurt at the hands of Boogie whenever I blew up her Barbies with cherry bombs. I should make a special note here: Boogie was my sister's "special friend" - you know, the one nobody can see, hear or experience except her but "HE IS REAL! I CAN FEEL HIM! AND HE TALKS TO ME!" // zaatheist, firstly learn to respect other ppls God/s. God talks to his ppl with action, look around you... The beauty of God and the reality of God is everywhere// First line: Why should we? Why does your belief deserve any respect whatsoever? Second and Third: Examples? I see no evidence for god, I see YOU interpreting what you see/experience as god talking to you.

      joe.soap.1806253 - 2012-09-03 08:00

      //The reason you never heard his voice is because you're not his desciple yet// You can't hear his voice because you're not his desciple and you're not his desciple because you can't hear his voice. In other words: You can't know god until you understand the bible, but you can't understand the bible until you know god. // Believe it or not, I personally heard his voice, he speaks with a man's voice, sweeter than a mother's voice, more real than you are real and I can't guarantee that he will speak with you the way he spoke to me. // Two possibilities: 1. You interpreted your inner voice to be god, or 2. You're nuttier than squirrel poop and any sensible psychologist would label you clinically insane at the most oppurtune moment. Both possibilities are infintely more probable than you hearing a deities' voice. I am already a good person; I don't need religion for it.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-09-03 14:11

      Actually true what somebody said further up, this is the problem here. Zaatheist, mememan are quoting stories, should i say lies about religions. That 6 yr old myth about the Moslem's prophet, how do we know God exists....blah, blah.....every religion warns about people like Zaatheist, mememan....pushing you further away from your God....We're always talking about the World getting more and more dangerous to live (look at stats), but if atheism is increasing as per Zaatheist brilliant study...."cough"....isnt Atheism the reason for the increasing crime......You see how easy it is, to use certain events to prove a point....come on people, why are these guys actually still getting space on news24. Editors???

  • ari.potah - 2012-09-02 08:57

    They should all be granted the domain name ".myth" or ".fable" or for the extremists ".grimmfairytale"

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 09:32

      Great idea.

      walter.lebza - 2012-09-02 19:34

      Let me explain to you like you are a 7 year old child. As we know a man has five senses. thats see, smell, taste, hear and touch. God gave you enough senses you'll need to survive on this earth. There are so many things you can't see, smell, taste, hear or touch, yet they are real like radio waves and radio waves can be as long as a football field in length. you walk through them everyday, without knowing it. A tv set is simply an instrument designed to detect this radio waves and translate them into sounds and pictures for you, but this instrument cannot detect everything out there. The fact that you can't see, smell or touch something it doesn't mean it is not real, your senses are limited. This things are there, but in another dimension (meaning out of your senses's reach). Ever heard spiritual people talking about dimensions? The reason you can't see a spirit or soul or even magnetic field or gravity is because your eyes are not designed to see it, or even touch it, smell it etc. The reason you can't see God is because he is a spirit, your five senses are not mechanicaly designed to see him. Animals have something called instinct, they can escape death. Yet they don't read the news on tv or watch the weather or keep calanders. But, to cut a long story short. A man is given FAITH as his sixth sense, to detect what other senses cannot detect. Question: Who created us?, answer: you'll never know if you use your five senses to find out. It is not everything that is a myth. Somethings we know that they exist but our senses don't tell, we see stars forming in galaxies, like phoenix galaxy gives birth to 2 planets everyday, not 2 planets in 5billion years (2 PLANETS EVERYDAY), yet we don't see the force behind that. By FAITH we know someone is designing and forming those things, and this someone makes them beatiful. Like our wildlife, animals, flowers, trees, rivers etc. You can give him a name yet he is there, we can see what he does. GOD is alive and real.

      walter.lebza - 2012-09-02 23:56

      Mememan, sorry for the bad grammar, english is not my first language. But thanks for reminding me that God uses gravity as a tool to build planets.

      huck.starr - 2012-09-03 07:40

      That is SO STOOOOOOOOPID!!!!!!!!!!!!! God is real and Jesus is real so the name must be .JESUS or ,SALAVTION.

      joe.soap.1806253 - 2012-09-03 08:07

      Hmm, god uses gravity to build planets .. I actually like the sound of that, it's much more real than *crazy eyes* "GOD MAID TEH ERF WIF A WAIV OFF HIS 'ANDS!". God uses gravity to build planets .. replace 'god' with 'hyperintelligent pan-dimensional beings', or 'aliens' for short, and you can see why I like that statement.

  • crracker.crackerr - 2012-09-02 10:24

    Some fun facts to share. The 144,000 chosen were not only male virgins who had ot defiled themselves with women but all were Israelites. Rev.7 "[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. [2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, [3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. [4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. [6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. [7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand." Thanks internet.

      crracker.crackerr - 2012-09-02 12:35

      @ Paul Dawson Does logic play a role in your philosophical musings? Your comment seems to suggest that thinking of atheists or unbelievers is tainted for the very reason that logic is important to them. So logic is not important in you worldview? You have failed to reply to my questions so I assume your philosophies are really quite useless.

      press.enter.12 - 2012-09-02 21:50

      Where did we recently hear a story about sealing foreheads ? . . . o yes , the muti man, the lonmin miners and a rabbit . . .

      zaatheist - 2012-09-03 06:33

      Cracker Paul Dawson is obviously a coward who posted the usual Xian boneheaded silliness, gets challenged, deletes his stupid comment and runs away. Normal Xian behaviour.

  • paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 11:45

    Our imaginations cannot create something which is not. Every basis of something we imagine come from a source, "a something else" in its original essence. It is impossible to have "created God" in our minds if there was never a more thorough understanding. We are born with an intellect that has with it an imagination which is capable of grasping a "greater" authority. Atheism is purely question begging for proof of the metaphysical. It is not a rational argument to say the burden of proof lies with any singular party, for reason needs not to be a circular argument. Atheism is illogical because you imply that there is, without answer, infinite regress. Whereas with a first cause, timeless, that is not subject to infinite regress there is an answer. God. So by your own logic the burden of proof lies with you. Atheism is easy for the simple minded. A little Philosophy brings a man’s mind about to Atheism but great learning of Philosophy brings it about to religion. The Atheist loves to lable religion to the simple minded. Aristotle, Plato, Descartes, Spinoza, Socrates, Newton. There is no question that historically recognized, most of the finest minds on the planet each had their own understanding of God. Some a personal diety, others not. None were so stupid to think it was all by mistake. Enter Dawkins and Hitchens the truly irrational militants who refuse to engage in the Queen of Philosophy. They just want you to forget the WHY and only think about the HOW. Never!

      crracker.crackerr - 2012-09-02 11:52

      @ Paul Deason You mean thought experiments can prove the existence of a god? OK. Now which god? And what does philosophy say about a dishonest god, which is exactly the god(s) depicted by the bible? How about some actually being convinced by philosphy that god does not exist or that god can't be the biblical god? But let's pay some attention to a bible which tells us that the chosen 144,000 referred to in Revelation are not only male virgins (they never DEFILED themselves with women) but they are all Jews? Not one women among them. Does philosophy offer a solution?

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 12:10

      Yawn. You see there you go again. Picking at scriptures in an attempt to disprove God. Is this the best that you can do? Would you like to quote the Koran or the Sutras? Or have you limited yourself to the confines of the bible? Does what man wrote really mean there is no God. Does God have to be a personal god? Is the bible whole premise of your argument? Come now use your mind a little more. Do your research to strengthen your argument that there is no God. Your an Atheist. No God. So why to you quote Christian scripture to me? Prove there is no God with your logic instead of bashing one faith. You must have more ammunition to give you more credibility.

      johnny.potatoes61 - 2012-09-02 12:42

      **Our imaginations cannot create something which is not. Every basis of something we imagine come from a source, \a something else\ in its original essence.** Is that, perhaps, why gods (including yours) have human characteristics?

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 12:52

      Nice try, but they didn't at first. The anthropomorphic god is much more recent in humanity. Even in the most recently found tribes of untouched Amazonian South America there were rituals of thanks given to a greater being. A God.

      joanne.fairbrother - 2012-09-02 14:11

      "Our imaginations cannot create something which is not." Yes our imaginations can. Sorry Paul, your argument doesn't cut it. It's like saying Dragons must exist because it's impossible for someone to have just imagined them.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 14:24

      I said quite clearly "from a source, "a something else" in its original essence" Dragons - reptiles and serpents Unicorns - Horses with horns God - ? Give me an idea where the concept of a God came from, bearing in mind that every last little shred of evidence left behind to us from the very origins of an intelligent human kind is some forms of message about the Gods/God.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 14:32

      @Paul More and more I have come to regard religious people as children who have yet to grow up, their inability to face up to the reality of death is evidence of that. As children there were things that frightened us and our parents told us comforting stories to help us with our fears. Some of us grew into adults and no longer needed those stories to get by. Religious people, on the other hand, physically became adults, but mentally remained children, still dependant on comforting stories in order to be able to face up to the realities of life.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 14:33

      @Paul You have made assertions about your god without a scap of supporting evidence that this god in fact exists. Come on now - Prove that gods exist, Prove that your version of your particular god is the 'right' one, Prove that Jesus Christ existed, Prove that he was the son of your version of your particular god, I am genuinely excited awaiting your response.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 16:19

      It's generally agreed upon by scholars and historians that a man called Jesus existed. Your hero Dawkins has admitted this and that he got it wrong in his book. You do realize after his book "The God Delusion" that Dawkins is now generally considered an irrational idiot among prominent atheists?

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 17:34

      "It's generally agreed upon by scholars and historians that a man called Jesus existed." Citation please or you made it up. Did you ask the billion + Chinese? The Billion Indians? Genraraly agreed, PAH! "Dawkins is now generally considered an irrational idiot among prominent atheists?" Another lie but we have come to expect that from true(tm) Christians like you. Lying for Jesus and Christian morality at its finest. Keep it up. You are doing a great job of proving the dishonesty of religion and why atheism is growing faster than any religion.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 18:04 Do I need to tell you who the other prominent Atheists are? Or would you mind doing that research yourself Mr. Dawkins zealot?

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 19:23

      Paul_Dawson I don't look at videos. Name me ten "prominent atheists?" who "consider Dawkins is an irrational idiot". Waiting ................

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 20:53

      Paul Dawson you are a slimy dishonest twit. You made assertions about the number of "Prominent" atheists who consider Dawkins "an irrational idiot. I challenged you to provide the names and you have shied away. You are but a dishonest liar. I have challenged you to provide proof for the existence of this god you are peddling. You have shied away from that because you have none. You are too embarrassed to reveal which Christian cult you belong to. In the end you are just another religious fraudster who comes to News24 all puffed up and snotty and finds the BS that he uses on the impressionable minds of 10 year olds in Sunday School cuts no mustard in the real world. You will eventually go the way of the rest. But thank you for the opportunity to expose the facile nature of the religious beliefs you peddle to the gullible and the puerile nature of your defence for this silliness when confronted. I make comments here solely in the expectation that there are people who read News24 comments who are still sitting on the fence while watching the debate. Comparing the two positions may well do some good in encouraging them to reconsider their stances. It might still be doing a lot of good to keep the issue where everybody can see it. Clowns like you make a great contribution as without you we would not have much opportunity to expose religious belief so publicly.

      press.enter.12 - 2012-09-02 21:59

      Paul Dawson - Actually there was a whole Jesus family at the time and numerous Mary Magdelenes'- otherwise there is no direct evidence of Jesus' existence - none - zero - only two indirect (disputed) pieces of "evidence" in the form of references - but with so many Jesusu's around at the time - who can tell ?.

      huck.starr - 2012-09-03 07:39

      Paul you are obvious a man of great learning and insight and a true man of God. What do these SATAN worshipers know. Nothing, Thet are all so teachy and clever but they donn know God. Jesus existed and what He said is historically true at least. Any historian will tell them that. Wether they believe is up to them. They must think why did so many people in the first century who knew Jesus never ever relent under extreme torture such as having their skin peeled off while alive all they had to do was renounce Jesus and they would be left. Why did they stay strong to the end. They would not have done that if they wernt 100% sure that Jesus was God. So these athiest must please search there heart for Jesus. He is waiting for them. He truly is. I rebuke this spirit of slander right now, in JESUS' Name! Come out of them now!

      joe.soap.1806253 - 2012-09-03 08:25

      So what if Jesus was real? It doesn't change anything. It's still not evidence for god. // Give me an idea where the concept of a God came from // I can postulate a theory (note, I use the standard term for theory, not the scientific one): The concept of god(s) can stem from alien visitations far back in human history; there are Mayan depictions of gods descending from the sky (heavens), Indian Sanskrit epics speak of mythical flying machines called vimanas**, the Nazca lines in Peru* appear (from the sky) to be a landing strip, in the book of Ezekiel a prophet has a vision of a flying vessel accompanied by fire, smoke and a loud noise. There are dozens upon dozens of tales, pictures and ancient written histories that speak of visitation to earth by the gods ('visitation' being the operative word here). This is supported by the fact that thousands of years ago, mankind was primitive and scientifically-retarded (to put it bluntly); to quote from the movie Thor, Darcy says "A primitive culture like the Vikings might have worshiped them as deities." in reference to the Vikings identification with the Asgards (Thor, Loki etc). Arthur C. Clarke: Any sufficiently advanced technology, is indistinguishable from magic. Just a thought. * - 2,300 years old (+-) ** - +2,000 years old.

      arthur.hugh - 2012-09-03 09:23

      huck.starr if you could get herpes from jerking off you would be nothing but a walking blister.

      jody.beggs - 2012-09-03 17:01

      @huck.starr may satan eat your grandchildren ! Works both ways but neither exist or are real ! except in your head ... Damn the man. PS can we take Jesus's words literally or not ?

      brian.mazibukomdlongwa - 2012-09-03 23:55

      Well done Paul_Dawson' U killed these atheists,u clearly demonstrated that God created the order we see in life/universe. Please get in touch!

      press.enter.12 - 2012-09-04 03:15

      Yes paul Dawson - listen to Brian - get in touch with reality.

      karien.haasbroek - 2012-09-04 12:12

      Huck.starr chasing the evil spirit in us... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I'm laughing so hard I'm in tears!!! How can one reason with that kind of logic? MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

  • paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 11:58

    Atheism is ironic and self defeating. It appeals to reason for the existence of a reason-less universe. Huh? It appeals for orderly thought in an existence to which there is no order. Huh? It has a message that has a purpose to prove that there is no purpose. Huh? And it's morality is to argue that there are no morals (except the reasons and morals that they themselves purpose). Aha! So their purpose, in turn, produces the ultimate articulation of self-centeredness which is fearfully bent towards the cover up and suppression of belief in an ultimate personal cause who brings order, purpose and judgement to all things.

      crracker.crackerr - 2012-09-02 12:15

      @ Paul Dawson All mind games. Anyway, let's keep it simple and basic. Does philosophy offer a solution to the following questions: Which god? The strange (deranged)thinking of for example the writer of Revelation? Speak about cover ups. That seems to be the hobby horse of the faithful. Why don't they reveal just how unreliable the bible is?

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 12:19

      Mind games? Is it illogical what I have said? For you Atheists do so love your logic! You sound like a bible skeptic more than an atheist.

      crracker.crackerr - 2012-09-02 12:51

      @ Paul Dawson Does logic play a role in your philosophical musings? Your comment seems to suggest that the thinking of atheists or unbelievers is tainted for the very reason that logic is important to them. So logic is not important in your worldview? It plays a very subordinate (if any)role in your philosophies? You have failed to reply to my questions so I assume your philosophies are really quite useless. Why I refer to the bible? You a philosopher? You must be a very moderate one if you can't realize that I refer to the bible because that is the source material that is being relied on by believers to mislead people. Still many quotes from it to come. Why not other religious works referred to? Why should they carry any weight here? Let's keep it simple. The relevant source material for propagating belief systems here on this forum is the bible. Some of you! You have not yet answered my questions. Does your philosophies support the writer of Revelation? According to him you must be Jewish and you must not have defiled yourself with women in order to be one of the chosen. So, what he realized the Jews would not attain on this earth made him imagine they would attain it in the afterlife: rulership. (I am not knocking Jews. I am merely referring to the mad ramblings of the Revelation writer. But does you philosophy offer a solution? Oh yes, and of course the contradiction between god's command to mulitply and the elevated position of the 144,000 male VIRGINS.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 13:18

      Logic is very important in my world view. I have just shown you that Atheism is illogical. Have another read, the logic is perfect; the illogical thought process of Atheism clearly laid out. You can't refute it can you? As an Atheist, your assumptions on any Philosophy (apart from natural Philosophies) are really quite useless. It's a big mistake. Oops! We exist. There is no sense of "moderation" in Philosophy. This comment only proves your inept understanding of it. I'm still a bit confused - how and you where you find reason (do you know what reason is?) to disprove a God exists by looking at what a man has written on a piece of paper. Human beings wrote the bible. Supposedly for the salvation of other men. Not as a pseudo-scientific book of reference for everything. I still fail to see your linkage of the bible to the essence and the existence of God. I'm keeping it as simple as possible here mate! As an Atheist with some credibility, you need to concentrate on things like moral argument, the problem of evil, anthropic design, degrees of perfection, and the cosmological argument. I'm giving you clues here. Quoting the bible is merely card stacking for a very weak argument.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 14:35

      @Paul Why doesn't your God just show himself to all humanity? That would end the argument once and for all. Why does he let his devout followers embarrass themselves with horrible arguments like this? There's an obvious answer. Hint: the not-detectable and the nonexistent look very similar. Two thousand odd years and you havestill to realise that modern society demands a requirement to furnish an adequate and rational narrative. Your problem is you do not have one! Arguments are not evidence. Arguments need evidence. Arguments are what people fall back on when they have no evidence. No matter how eloquent, elaborate or simply long-winded an argument is, if it has no acceptable evidence at its foundation, then it’s just verbiage. Acceptable evidence is three-dimensional and has mass. It requires no mystical knowledge or ability, and it can be observed by anyone using at least one of the five senses. Show us the evidence, or please stop wasting our time.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 14:37

      @Paul "You sound like a bible skeptic more than an atheist." The a work of fiction; a book compiled from the plagiarised texts of ancient religions by bronze age sheep herders; translated from Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek texts to Latin and edited by the Catholic Church, translated into English and re-edited by the Church of England as instructed by King James to conform with his views, and interpreted to fit the preexisting values of anyone who quotes from it. As a theist you are simply handicapped. You cannot overcome the most overwhelming obstacle to yourr proselytizing. That being, you cannot prove the existence of God. You cannot prove Jesus ever existed, as there is no credible references from writers of the time, outside of the hideous tome itself, the Bible. Whatever "proof" you have for the existence of any god would be the exact same evidence you have for the existence of the Tooth Fairy, santa, Easter Bunny and bigfoot. Interestingly, no one in all history, no theologian, has ever proffered "proof" that would stand up to the scientific method or even the lower level of proof necessary in a court of law,

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 14:39

      So Paul. Lets have evidence from sources other than the usual obvious forgeries.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 15:15

      As an Atheist you are question begging for proof of the Metaphysical. You have to look for reason in that which your argument stands. Your attempt to disprove God to the world by disproving the bible sells you short. Surely you can see this? Consider that I am a Panenthiest, now disprove my God. Cause and effect are evidence. Why should a being come to know the universe if the universe doesn't need to be known? Why should the universe have begun if it wasn't to support life? Why should life exist? Atheism is so short sighted. Do you even care about the why? No you don't, because all you see and want to know of is physical. You give no credence to the purpose of imagination. As Mememan tried to allude to (by a his somewhat humorous and transparent attempt at a higher intelligence) Occam's Razor does zero, zilch, nadda to prove the "why?". No scientific equation will ever touch on the why. They are two separate fields of Philosophy. One of which Atheists have chosen to ignore. It then must be very frustrating for you Atheists that religion is the best argument for the "why?". This is a fact, like it or not. God is the most plausible answer for "why"? Unless you have another one? Look at the end of the day you chose to be an atheist. That's fine by me. But I will never stop asking about the why? You already have.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 15:29

      Atheists give new meaning to the words "Bible Bashers" LOL!

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 15:34

      Mememan - Ad Hominem the greatest sign of a weak argument. Go well.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 16:11

      @mememan -I'm not offended or sensitive. I'm merely identifying a weakness in your argument. Apology not needed. Rocks falling contain no order, true this is a fortunate accident. But would the concept of “convenience” itself exist if there were no subject for its convenience. "The big bang" which started life was supposedly an explosion. I have never seen an explosion cause order. Without order, the big bang would have created chaos. The universe and life within it thus contains order. So let's stick to the why of life itself. Because I agree with you there is no why when it comes to inanimate and unintelligent objects that are subject purely to external forces. I cannot akin myself and life as we know it to a rock.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 17:42

      Paul_Dawson What type of Christian are you? A Hansie Cronje, Joost van der Westhuizen, Ray McCauley, prosperity gospel (check my designer shades), Christian;? A Benny Hinn fraud faith healer (no amputees allowed), Christian? A Pope, hates gays, condoms, abortion, birth control and reports of clergy child abuse, Christian? A Joseph Smith, I found the gold tablets and Jesus visited America, Christian? A snake juggling, glossolalia, cmtru wiggwagg snogerumpus slobberdam molosovic, tongue slobbering, rolling on the floor, Christian? A Jim Jones, have some Kool-Aid, Christian? A David Koresh, what a lovely little daughter you have, Christian? A Sun Myung Moon, the moonie messiah, Christian? A Seventh Day Adventist, Kellogg's Corn Flakes on Saturday, Christian. A cafeteria Xian, who decides which bible bits to peddle and which no longer apply, to fit his preconceptions. A Jehovah's Witless, sorry no blood transfusions and you are not one of the lucky 144000, Christian?

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 17:42

      A sex obsessed member of The Family type Christian? A Christian Scientist, we don't do doctors but pray even if kiddies die, Christian? A gun toting, rapture ready. American Jesus, the world is going to end this year, again, Christian? An Aryan National, neo-nazi, we hate Jews and people with dark skins and Jesus was a white man, Christian? An anti-science, anti-knowledge, the world is only 6000 years old, Christian? None of the above but a true ™, whatever that means, Christian? Understand my confusion? It helps to know what brand of snake oil you are peddling.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 18:10

      Yes, I understand you are confused. Helplessly so.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 19:25

      Paul It is only a matter of time till you run away. You all do in the end. What Xian cult to you subscribe to. Come on. Don't be bashful.

      joanne.fairbrother - 2012-09-02 22:30

      @Paul. In response to: "I said quite clearly "from a source, "a something else" in its original essence" Dragons - reptiles and serpents Unicorns - Horses with horns God - ?" If you accept this logic, then you should also accept that all other gods from Thor, Vishnu, Odin, Waheguru also exist. Most of them came about long before Yaweh. (Or any other recent gods of worship) In addition, everybody loves a Super Hero. From Hercules to Sparticus. In fact most of us want to be that super-hero! Just look at Mao Tse-tung and Sun Myung Moon. It doesn't take much to realize we're an egocentric species. God was made in the image of man.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 23:03

      @Jo - Indeed. Religion has evolved, just as man and the universe has. Aint that something!?

      morne.s.smit.5 - 2012-09-03 01:11

      crracker the 144 000 is not a physical number. But then you would know that!

      joe.soap.1806253 - 2012-09-03 08:33

      What the bloody hell is a "physical number"?! o.O

      paulthebok - 2012-09-03 13:57

      @Meme Should we read the Dawkins book where he states..." life on earth was seeded by Aliens" ... lol ... you should ask for a refund on all your Dawkins books ...THE MAN IS A FRAUD ... he's only in it for the money!!!

      paulthebok - 2012-09-03 17:01

      @Me Me ME Me Me It will be in his next book, the one you waiting for with bated breath. By the way, have you seen the clip where Dawkins is asked the question ..." can you give me an example of a mutation adding to the genome" ... it's a classic, Dawkins is dumbfounded, lost for words, lol , he cuts the interview short, then comes back after having time to think about it , he then goes on a rant about evolution and totally avoids the question which was ..."can you give me an example of a mutation adding to the genome" , Dawkins is a fraud!!

      jody.beggs - 2012-09-03 17:07

      @Paul_Dawson "Religion has evolved, just as man and the universe has. Aint that something!" Not really , the word of God should be constant , don't you agree ? Something , omnipotent , omnipresent and ultimate created it ! Why should it need to evolve ? If it evolved through the hands of man then its been altered and not the work of god by the imagination of man. Why you would actually be proud of the word of god changing is beyond me , it shows its fallible and needed to adapt to the times. You sir are pissing on your faith ...

      wordis.word.1 - 2012-09-04 05:37

      I think Pawl_Dawson is God. Somehow He has managed to inflate His own Ego to infinite proportions!

      jayne.oldewage - 2012-09-04 16:13

      "Is the bible whole premise of your argument" You asked this of an atheist? Now I ask this of you?

  • Stewart Croucamp - 2012-09-02 17:06

    I read the debate below with interest. Paul_Dawson does not get my vote. I am concerned that people who do not accept religious doctrine are always referred to as atheist. It is known that pre-christian era leaders had their own personal gods. There was the god of Isaac and the god of Abraham etc. A universal God was a meme created by the Roman Catholic church to indoctrinate people to enforce them to live under the rule of the church. The masses still blindly follow this doctrine to this day.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 17:58

      Stewart, You are very far off the mark with regards to the Roman control theory. I don't propose that religious doctrine is infallible. Monotheism came about long before Christianity. Before Constantine, the Christians were heavily persecuted and nearly eradicated. Read about Falicity and Perpetua and you will read how the Romans treated the Christians. I am no supporter of the organised religion which we see in today's churches but I can assure you that your ideas of Christianity being a tool created by the Romans is just plain wrong. If you really want to know about the birth and rise of Christianity I suggest reading a (secular!) book called "A History of Christianity" by Diarmaid MacCulloch. You will learn many things about what the faith was, how it came into being, and how it contrasts to what we see today in the church. It's starts off with the Greeks and Aristotle, "politis" and the suppression of free thinking by religion - an interesting opposition throughout the book The hierarchical Catholic Church stands in stark contrast to what Christianity, an end of ritualistic dogma. You will come to your own conclusions by reading this book. It takes you through the middle ages and through the crusades and the many different factions of Christianity and makes you wonder why the hell they were doing these things. It covers the inquisition and the enlightenment era right up to WWI, Marx and communism. Throughout it shows that politics, power and state perverted everything.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 19:27

      Paul obviously does not understand punctuation. To break text in to logical segments. But then he believes in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, zombies flying through the air and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories so logic is not his strong suite.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 19:34

      @Paul Faith. HaHa! Father Christmas and the Tooth fairy are also articles/figures of faith. Books have also been written about them. But you'd fall down laughing if an adult insisted they were real.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 19:42

      Goodbye Paul. You have run out of BS then. Boy have I got some awesome news for you! You are totally going to freak out when you hear this, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if you got down on your knees and kissed my stinky feet on account of it! Are you ready?!? I mean, are you ready to completely flip your lid?!? I wish I could be there to see your face when you read this! Ready? Okay, here it is. There is no God, no heaven, no hell and no Satan!! Fantastic news, hey?!?! And do you want to know something else? All of these emotions you've been feeling and depression and other symptoms, they're all normal things that most people go through at some point in their life! That totally rocks, doesn't it?? And as important as you think that you are with Satan and God fighting over your soul and the Holy Spirit giving a damn about whether or not you shut him out, it's all bollocks!! None of it is happening!! Isn't that AWESOME!!

      zaatheist - 2012-09-02 20:14

      All these comments from the bone headed invisible magic man believers like Paul here have become kind of pathetic really. It hardly worth the bother to have these debates with people clearly unable to mount any reasonable defense for their positions. We already know before hand that every argument they make will always be illogical and indefensible. The religious are irrational, that's why they gravitate toward superstition to begin with.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-02 20:54

      Oh are you still here? Hardly worth the bother huh? So what do you do? You create an anonymous FB account for your atheist endeavors. LOL. Oh the Atheism irony runs deep. I'll post it again. Read it nice and slow. Atheism is ironic and self defeating. It appeals to reason for the existence of a reason-less universe. Huh? It appeals for orderly thought in an existence to which there is no order. Huh? It has a message that has a purpose to prove that there is no purpose. Huh? And it's morality is to argue that there are no morals (except the reasons and morals that they themselves purpose). Aha! So their purpose, in turn, produces the ultimate articulation of self-centeredness which is fearfully bent towards the cover up and suppression of belief in an ultimate personal cause who brings order, purpose and judgement to all things.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-03 06:10

      Youth pastor sentenced to 25 years in prison for the rape of a teen girl Youth pastor arrested for videotaping a woman who was changing clothing in a church dressing room.. Catholic youth pastor accused of producing child porn and exploiting children. Accused 'Well Dressed' Groper Hosted Bible Studies, Neighbors Say Pastor married for 20 years loses his wife in a tragic house fire. Less than a year later he’s married. Now arrested for murdering first wife.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-03 06:41

      Which minds are those then? Dawkins & Hitchens? I L..O..L! Sir Isaac Newtons calculations are still used to this day. Space travel would not have been possible had it not been for our Christian friend. Wow, that must truly bug you. A man who could mathematically equate how the universe worked, believed in God. Einstein believed in Spinoza's God, Pantheism. Aristotle, Plato, Descartes, Socrates, even Galileo - all believe in God. Don't fool yourself. There are no men walking that compare to the likes of these, who stand as great pillars in our knowledge's history. Maybe you know more than them perhaps when it comes to proving the metaphysical? Oh that's right you've decided through reason alone, with all the proof which exists that there is no metaphysical. You see, we stand on equal footing when it comes to proof. Neither of us can prove / disprove it. This is what annoys atheists so. Come memememan - haven't you got any more rock analogies which I can debunk through logic alone? I've shown that your reason for proof of no God is flawed. All that you and zaathiest can do is quote the bible. Surely you have more in your arsenal than this? I just this it's so weak. How can you defend atheism by fighting one faith? That's like trying to conquer the world and invading one country. Senseless and illogical a.k.a atheism.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-03 09:00

      The pseudo-scientific method of the NAS begins with the arbitrary rejection of a Creator/Designer and atheist materialism deduced as a fact. There is no valid hypothesis or empirical evidence. These numbers are mere assumptions. I fail to see how this disproves God. How many people believe in a God doesn't prove/disprove him. I'm merely debunking your hypothesis that faith is for the weak minded. Please show me where science disproves God. You only kid yourself by saying this. Why does the Higgs Boson exist? They are 2 different kinds of truths. Atheists have just chosen to ignore one of them. You can't prove a "negative" just like I cannot prove a "positive" but your belief is based on stating it categorically. So why does my belief seem so implausible to you atheists? Once again the irony comes charging through. It follows that your scientific "argument" seems to be backed up by your willful agreement of everything zaatheist posts, regardless how ridiculous the reason is in his argument, you will agree. You only do yourself a discredit because any adult can see how childish his posts are. The fact is that neither science or skeptics of the bible disprove the existence of God. And you know what? They never will. Philosophy- One absolute truth cannot debunk another absolute truth. They are mutually inclusive. Ponder that for a second. I give all credit to science and I know that it will only go to prove Gods work. "Standing on the shoulders of giants"- Sir Isaac Newton.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-03 09:48

      Paul_Dawson I find the impotent, inchoate rage evident in your posts both funny and strangely therapeutic.

      LanfearM - 2012-09-03 10:08

      @ Paul_Dawson - you are deliberately putting words in Mememan's mouth. He never said science disproves god. Besides, you cannot "prove that god doesn't exit" as you cannot prove a negative. One of the first basic rules of science and you don't even know it, then you try to talk about science. Persecution of christians by the Romans has been over-estimated, comes from old christian propaganda. Besides, those that were persecuted were not persecuted because of their faith. Spinoza's god and pantheism, well now, seems you don't even know what that means. There is no worship of a "god" or "creator", it believes that the divine is in all living things and that all living things in the universe are "divine". Just look at what happened to poor Galileo just for suggesting the earth is not flat. What do you think would have happened to him if he ever dared to voice disbelief? Not that I say he was an atheist or even agnostic, but if he was he would never had publically admitted it. Look at Thomas Jefferson, he was an atheist but it was only revealed long after his death from very personal letters he wrote. Do you really think he would have become one of America's best and most beloved presidents if he admitted it publically? There were and still are reasons people don't disclose their non-belief in public, to this day. Just look at reactions here, believers screaming in capitals how we non-believers serve satan, and so forth. Wipe the foam from your mouths.

      paulthebok - 2012-09-03 15:03

      @ Paul Dawson Hi , Paul don't waste your time wish these fools, they are bunch of idiots, I've being around the block with these fools, they spend 1000's of hours trying to "debunk" a God they don't believe in, they have no life's, no friends, Meme doesn't even have a wife ... she could put up with him, so she gave him the boot, now he is a lonely atheist that spends his life insulting a God he is only 99.9999% sure doesn't exist, lol , what a sorry fool he is ... but wait ... at least he aspires to being like Einstein...LMAO ... talk about being deluded! So Paul , you're wasting precious time trying to debate these fools, because in the end of the day neither they nor us can prove anything, but they "THINK" they have all the answers, but all they really have is their opinions , but in their minds that is FACT! I've stopped wasting hours trying to debate them, I come on here once in a while now and throw about a few insults and ridicule them , just like they do us, then I leave them to there folly! Paul , let FOOLS be !!!

      jody.beggs - 2012-09-03 17:10

      @PaulSmallKok (Matthew 5:22) - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." Have you read the buy bull. See you in hell Buddy !

      paulthebok - 2012-09-03 17:25

      @Meme What are you 7 yrs old, Paulthecock , Pull ...WTF you think it worries me , lol , it only shows off how childish you are, grow up! Late, whatever!! Some of us work , we all don't work for News24 like you! We sell real things, we make them, deliver them and install them, our whole life doesn't revolve around trying to prove that something we don't believe in doesn't exist, damn man what's that all about, so you don't believe in God , booo hoo , jolly for you !! Now get on with your life!! Oh yes I forgot, YOU DON"T HAVE ONE!! Divorced,married??? Make up your mind , you told me once that you were married to a Christian lady, then when I questioned you later on this, you changed your tune, devorced from a hot German scientist, lol , yeah bru dream on!! Lonley, tell me meme, how many hours a day do you devote to your "cause" ...Atheism? I think you spend 20 times more time on it than the average Christian does going to Church! Obsessed!! Einstein? Meme , you told me, that you aspire to being like Einstein, your words not mine, are implying I'm lying? Yes meme, have a great month!! To quote Arnie ..."I'll BE BACK !!!!

      paulthebok - 2012-09-04 13:45

      @Meme You told me, you nwere married to a Christian lady!! You said , "I aspire to be like Einstein" ... I remember it clearly , because I laughed so much I nearly fell off my chair. So lie and deny, it's ok , It's so funny the High Priest of News24's in house Atheists is married to a Christian lady, and he's sh_t scared of her finding out about his rants here, by the way when I first met you, I opened your FB profile and you had pics of your family braaing on the beach, you your wife and daughter, you quickly removed those pics when I asked you about "what your wife and daughter would think of how you insult god" , so carry on lying , we all know it's your style!!

  • danie.strydom.7 - 2012-09-02 22:27


      rohin.jadin - 2012-09-03 15:29

      amen to that!

  • stephen.king.900 - 2012-09-03 05:42

    I find all this debate about who is right and who is wrong and who wants to use this name or that name in the religious domain all rather ironic. These discussions are after all taking place within a system known as The World Wide Web, and it is ironic because it is the system that will entrap the individual into the comming new world order in which the worship of the beast, not god or science or facts or what ever you hold to be the truth, will be the law.

      zaatheist - 2012-09-03 06:14

      Ooooooooooooh! The beast. 666 and all that. Demons, Satan and the "Devil made me do it." Jeez, you guys are amusing. From a talking snake to their slavery-loving prophets, is there no claim so ridiculous the religious will not swallow it?

      huck.starr - 2012-09-03 07:26

      Stephen you tell these misgided athiest fools. As far as I am concerned if an answer to a question isn't in the bible, then these athiest have no business asking the question. There comments are a disgrace. It is a disgusting spit in the face of the One who died for them and htat make me very angry. I have been truly saved by Jesus in a way that they will never understand in thre SATANIST!!!!!! current state. I have witnessed real miracles, healing of the sick. I regularly talk with God so I know he is real and cares about those who believe in HIM anf LOVE him back. So I ask you, for yourself, to please not write comments like this.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-03 09:02

      No, you are being rude. Like all militant atheists are. He seems to imply there is something cognitively wrong. Get off of your high horse.

      joe.soap.1806253 - 2012-09-03 09:31

      // As far as I am concerned if an answer to a question isn't in the bible, then these athiest have no business asking the question. // Way to keep your head in the sand dude, LOL. This, ladies and gents, is a prime example of what is wrong with religion. Having belief in a deity is all well and good, but to take it to this extreme is not only worrisome, but dangerous as well.

      paul.anthony.dawson - 2012-09-03 09:36

      It's rude for YOU, who has no qualifications, to make the prognosis of a mental problem for SOMEONE YOU DON'T KNOW. Do I need to teach you manners? You've been cuddling up with Dawkins for too long.

      LanfearM - 2012-09-03 10:30

      @ Paul_Dawson - oh please, WE are being rude? What about yourself and others on here, just look at huck.starr's raving comments, froth around the mouth at the prospect of the ungodly daring to comment their views in public! Doesn't your bible say to look to your own sins first and that nobody, only your god, has the right to judge? Do you really want to tell me that christian comments such as "we in heaven will watch them tortured in hell forever" is firstly not insulting and secondly not raving and so unchristian it is pathetic.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2012-09-03 14:26

      @mememan. "Tied in knots"? I have read this whole discussion, dont see it? All i see is someone forcing opinions on others. Zaatheism, you and the many others are the reason i never chose Atheism. Today, reading your comments, i cannot believe i even considered it. Word of advice, less Bible, Koran, Torah etc..bashing...and try to speak to people as human beings, in the eyes of human being still deciding, Atheism is not superior to any religion - Stop trying to portray it as being this......the next persons beliefs is and could be just as strong as yours....

      paulthebok - 2012-09-03 15:32

      @Jennifer Don't let Meme get to you , all he is is a pseudo-intellectual bully , he might aspire to be like Einstein but all he has got is his Atheism , it's his life, he spends many hours here ...insulting our God and us, he has no humility, he is a pompous militant atheists with no life to live, no friends, no interests , no hobbies , no sport , all he has is his hatred for God! Beliefs / "understanding" it's all semantics, he's a bitter ex-Christian with an agenda to promote!

      jody.beggs - 2012-09-03 17:11

      @PaulSmallKok (Matthew 5:22) - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." Have you read the buy bull. See you in hell Buddy !

      paulthebok - 2012-09-03 17:35

      @ Meme I'll make this short, getting bored with you now ...ALREADY!! Ok you say you "understand" please help me "understand" ...only 3 things!! 1. No Transitional Fossil. 2. How the "code" in DNA form "by chance". 3. In evolution, when a mutation occurs, does it add information to the genome, or weaken it? I'll check back as to your "THEORIES" on these questions!!

      paulthebok - 2012-09-04 12:29

      @Meme 1. BS 2. More BS 3. Even more BS But hey, don't believe me , read up on what the scientists say, concerning my 3 questions and and your 3 BS answers, I did, maybe you should too!

      karien.haasbroek - 2012-09-04 23:26

      Paul, please provide us with links or references to these scientists that you are talking about. Please tell us who these scientists are that can prove/provide evidence that would suggest that 1) There are no transitional fossils 2) That DNA is not influenced by time and/or mutations and finally 3) That microbiotic mutations are invariably either improvements or degenerations. Oh, and one more thing, your scientist/scientists cannot be anyone connected to the Discovery Institute or someone involved with the american Intelligent Design court case debacle... been there and got the T-shirt. I'm asking for people with qualifications in relevant fields and peer reviewed and scientific journal-published research and findings. NO Discovery Institute nonsense!

  • enki.nibiru.58 - 2012-09-03 08:05

    My suggestion is keep them where they belong: In the fairy tale books.

  • eyesears.handsfeet - 2012-09-03 09:54

    If you open a can of worms, what do you get?

      joe.soap.1806253 - 2012-09-03 11:41

      Spaghetti in tomato sauce .. ?

  • rohin.jadin - 2012-09-03 14:17

    why is it that everyone that bothers to get involved in these religious debates do so with such passion and vehemently deny or proclaim their faith or lack thereof, where at the end of the day, THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG answer. We mere mortals don't know what's out there. You can believe/ or not believe - why the F**K do you need to keep convincing everyone else to follow your belief system. Believe whatever you want, and go enjoy your life. Stop wasting breathes debating this stuff already. Who gives a cr*p if someone has a .islam or .catholic domain. Go be happy.

      rohin.jadin - 2012-09-03 15:55

      In theory, I agree that apathy doesn't add any value to anything. However, when it comes to something like religion, science can not disprove what someone feels. Before you throw a bunch of Stephen hawking books at me, I talking about the human aspect of religion, not the bible quotes. I read into your comment that you believe you're saving the bible carrying people from evil. That's very noble of you. (Sarcasm intended) if someone wanted to argue at this point that 1+1 is not equal 2 - I'd agree - go ahead - fix the delusion, but to suggest that what you believe (or don't believe) is the only correct thing is rather arrogant don't you think? In the words of the Dalai Lama - "All major religious traditions carry basically the same message, that is love, compassion and forgiveness ... the important thing is they should be part of our daily lives." Is that so evil?

      paulthebok - 2012-09-03 16:25

      @ Meme Ditto , Communism, Pol Pot , Hitler, Mao Zedong, Benito Mussolini, Slobodan Miloševic, Joseph Stalin ect ect ... and aparthied , tell me who put an end to these "evil men" ...hmmmm ... the evil Christian "west" , yes MEN and WOMEN from both Christians and atheists have committed atrocities throughout history, but in the end of the day it was the Christian's who brought a end to all these evil men. True Christians, who follow the teachings of Christ, do not commit these sins, "they do unto others as they'd have them do unto the" and " they love their neighbors" ,they don't burn them at the stake or intern them in concentration camps or gulags!! You claim to be a man of "understanding" , yet you can't even understand this simple flaw in your reply.

      jody.beggs - 2012-09-03 17:18

      @paulthekok "Ditto , Communism, Pol Pot , Hitler, Mao Zedong, Benito Mussolini, Slobodan Miloševic, Joseph Stalin ect ect ... and aparthied , tell me who put an end to these "evil men" ...hmmmm ... the evil Christian "west" , yes MEN and WOMEN from both Christians and atheists have committed atrocities throughout history, but in the end of the day it was the Christian's who brought a end to all these evil men. " Fail ... Xians saved the world really , it was xians who make money off slavery , apartheid was religious and none of your example are about atheism but communism. So what you really trying to say is that only xians can do good , which is another lie ... Lying will just get you to hell ! According to your buy bull , do you disagree ? Do you realize you have called some one a fool on this site. By buy bull standards you are going to hell ! Do you disagree with that too ? Or are you just going to repent and take easy way out ? sin , repent , repeat ...

      paulthebok - 2012-09-03 17:39

      @Damn the Man Get lost FOOL , I've got nothing to say to you!!

      paulthebok - 2012-09-03 18:11

      @meme Please tell me, what was the major religion of those democracies that ended those regimes? You say ... "So the inquisitors weren't true xtians?" ... I say ...YES they weren't!!! Why you may ask , because did they "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you??? Did the love their neighbors? Did they "kill' ...hmm ...yes!! As I said "MEN" do evil , not religions!! What??? Only 30 000 cults ...BS ... I'm sure there's more , at last count ... Christians 2 200 000 000 Muslims 1 700 000 000 Hindus 1 000 000 000 Buddhists 500 000 000 Folk religions 400 000 000 Chinese folk religions 400 000 000 Plus many more religions ... but ... hey we all dumb , ONLY YOU atheist have all the answers, hey Meme !!!

      jody.beggs - 2012-09-03 18:24

      @PAulsmallkok. Fail ... What does your buy bull say about calling people fools , what a chop ...

      LanfearM - 2012-09-04 09:32

      @ Paulthebok - oh just stop with the lies and the bullying. What do you think, if you insult non-believers enough they will either shut up and go away, or start believing in your fairy tales? Pathetic man, really. LEARN HISTORY FFS! Hitler was a christian. Pol Pot was NOT an atheist! Stalin's genocide was POLITICAL. Mao's accidental cause of famine, was CULTURAL. Neither's policies or atrocities had anything to do with atheism. Grow up and smell the coffee. See below:

      LanfearM - 2012-09-04 09:34

      While it may be true that Communism portrayed itself as "godless," it did not wage war in the name of atheism, nor were its founders and leaders raised as atheists. They were, in fact, preponderantly Jewish and Christian. Communist Manifesto writer Karl Marx was born a Jew, the grandson of two rabbis, and was converted to Christianity at age 6. Leon Trotsky, whose real name was Lev Bronstein, was born and raised a Jew but later declared himself "an internationalist." Josef Stalin's "very religious" mother named him after St. Joseph, and wanted him to become a priest. Stalin himself supposedly claimed that his father had been a priest, and he was purportedly "damaged by violence" while being "raised in a poor priest-ridden household." As a youth, Stalin spent five years in a Greek Orthodox seminary, after which he purportedly renounced his religion. In his later years, Stalin apparently embraced Christianity once more. As Stalin biographer Edvard Radinsky remarks, "During his mysterious retreat [of June 1941] the ex-seminarist had decided to involve the aid of the God he had rejected." Radinsky likewise chronicles a number of religious comrades in Stalin's immediate circle. It is evident that, whether for good or bad, religion played a significant role in Stalin's life.

      LanfearM - 2012-09-04 09:35

      Adolf Hitler was raised a Catholic, and in a speech in 1922 he remarked, "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter..." In his autobiography Mein Kampf (1.2), Hitler stated: Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. Throughout his life, Hitler invoked God and "the Lord," demonstrating his religious, not atheistic, nature. Pol Pot was raised a Buddhist and Catholic. In this regard, Dr. Ian Harris, a Reader in Religious Studies at the University College of St. Martin, relates: "In one of his early writings Pol Pot wrote approvingly that the 'democratic regime will bring back the Buddhist moralism because our great leader Buddha was the first to have taught [democracy].'" Although in comparison to the Abrahamic religions its history is far less violent, Buddhism has not been entirely devoid of atrocity in its spread and practice.

      LanfearM - 2012-09-04 09:35

      If we are to insist—as many people have done, including numerous theists and atheists alike—that religious human abuse is the cause of atheistic reaction against religion, we need look no further, it would seem, than to Josef Stalin's religiously abusive childhood to discover from where much of his rage appeared to emanate. His atheistic reaction therefore would be caused by religion. Hitler, who was also fascinated by mysticism, could not be deemed an "atheist" by any standard, and Pol Pot also was not raised an atheist in a vacuum devoid of religion but was obviously affected and motivated by it.

      LanfearM - 2012-09-04 09:36

      Now that I've done the unforivable "copy and paste", perhaps somebody, anybody, who comments here will care to learn some history, instead of making it up on the spot to support their views.

      paulthebok - 2012-09-04 13:10

      @Meme There you go AGAIN , claiming to be one of the "few intelligentsia" , see you are a pseudo-intellectual bully after all, PAT PAT well done you know it all and we are dumb, good for you!! @Jody Beggs Ok Jody , I know you are gay, but please stop fantasizing about my k_k! Now get lost FOOL! @ Lanfear Yes nice copy/paste ...from your atheist site! A bit biased, wouldn't you say? I won't even bother responding to your "Stalin was a Christian" BS, it's not even worth the effort. Now Hitler, that's debatable, I tell you why, do you think that Hitler's actions were those of a Christians? Did he love his neighbor? Did he do unto others as he would have them do unto him? Did he kill? You are naive to believe Hitlers public Christian pronouncements, he was a politician, do you think he would want to alienate his electorate in 1922? I think you would be better informed on his views if you read Table Talk , it's gives you a better understanding of his views on religion. Now I know you won't bother, because that wouldn't support you agenda, would it? Either way Hitlers ACTIONS clearly show that HE WASN'T A CHRISTIAN!! Did he live by Christs teachings, did he love his neighbors , I think, The Poles, French and Dutch know the answer to this question!! YET, you fail to see it!!

      LanfearM - 2012-09-04 14:02

      @ Paulthebok - are you stupid? Just because somebody doesn't live the "way of Jesus" [supposedly] now he suddenly isn't a christian? Hitler was NOT an atheist! GET IT! Should I rather go to a site and quote from there how Hitler was NOT an atheist? I can do so, I have seen it. Hmm, instead I can refer you to some academic books and articles on the subject, but my guess is that you will not read it. No matter what Hitler believed in the corner of his heart, he used christianity to justify his hatred of the Jews. The Spanish did the same first with the Inquisition, and secondly when they conquered South America. I never said Stalin was a christian, only that he was influenced by religion. He practically started his own religion i.e. a religion of state with him at its head. Pol Pot was NOT an atheist. Mao did not kill people in the name of atheism. He made a very stupid agricultural mistake, the idiot, and millions starved during his "cultural revolution". Wow, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel here! Stop trying to pretend that atheism was ever used as an excuse for atrocities. Learn the difference between a political ideology and a religious doctrine! Secular humanism is the most advanced form of thinking, it cares for all living creatures on this planet, it cares about equality, justice, freedom, accountability, and the fair sharing of resources. Far more moral than any religion could ever hope to be.

  • chilli.stephenson1 - 2012-09-04 09:20

    Jesus is my Lord and Savior. There is no other way. Trust Him and Give your lives to Him for true peace and understanding. Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life!

  • ettienec1 - 2012-09-04 10:36


  • Havokreeka - 2012-09-04 12:24

    Yvonne Do I need t point out the Irony? .fool, where logic overcomes fairy-tales...

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