ANC 'holy trinity' remark worries church

2011-05-04 22:49

Johannesburg - The Dutch Reformed Church on Wednesday expressed concern over comments by a pastor who said the ANC, Cosatu and SA Communist Party were the holy trinity and that Jesus was a communist.

"While acknowledging our own history in this regard, as well as the same errors we have committed in the past, it is with a growing sense of concern that we as the Dutch Reformed Church (DRC) take note of the public remarks clergy as well as political figures have recently made, claiming God's support for their political party," church spokesperson Ben du Toit said in a statement.

"The latest incident in this regard, in which a pastor ceremoniously anointed President Zuma and misused Rom 13 in an irresponsible way to forcefully compel voters to support the ANC, really oversteps the boundaries of responsible theology, the responsible use of the Bible, as well as the responsible lobbying of support for the political party in question."

Die Burger newspaper on Monday reported that a pastor, speaking at a Workers' Day rally in Athlone, Cape Town, said “Jesus was ’n kommunis” [Jesus was a communist], “God het Pres Jacob Zuma as staatshoof gesalf” [God anointed President Jacob Zuma] and the ANC, Cosatu and the SACP were the “heilige Drie-eenheid” [Holy Trinity].

Zuma was present at the rally.

The church appealed to Zuma and other political leaders to "discourage the opportunistic misuse of religion" and to distance themselves from these practices.

"Should political leaders fail to publicly announce their opposition of these practices in the build-up towards the municipal elections, the DRC will have no choice but to use its communication structures as effectively as possible to advise voters to rather support political parties that do not misuse religion to further their own cause."

Du Toit said to "appropriate God for a political purpose and agenda" impaired the integrity of the Christian faith and of God himself.

"We appeal to President Zuma to show true leadership by joining hands with us in guarding against the misuse of the name of God in this way."

Zuma has in the past come under fire for using religion in his political speeches, most recently for saying a vote for the ANC was to choose heaven, while a vote for the opposition amounted to choosing "hell".

This drew rebukes from opposition parties, church groups and other bodies. Some described the remarks as "blasphemous".

  • Lestor - 2011-05-04 22:59

    Im no fan of any church but the DRC are making an awful lot of sense here.

      Dundermoose - 2011-05-05 00:04

      I'm not fan of people who aren't a fan of any church, but I agree with you!

      BrokenLink - 2011-05-05 00:42

      The reason a very large amount of people are not a fan of the church is because of people like this 'pastor' of Zuma. The church has always been made up of people, people are corruptible. This 'pastor' claiming all this rubbish scores some advantage, cash, running water, a bit of limelight, whichever it may be, he is damaging Christianity. Sadly as many church leaders also have done in the past. The church worships a perfect God, but will never be perfect, neither will us Christians. But we dont claim to be :)

      Shadoz - 2011-05-05 06:26

      These bloody fools are probably gonna claim to have invented the wheel and want some kind of a compensation for thousands of years of use. I wonder if they even know who the so called father of communism is cause as far as i know Karl Marcx or Lenin came up with the consept and not some african.

      paulf - 2011-05-05 06:52

      To stoop this low by using Any Religion is a disgrace. ANC are Very Desperate.

      Damask - 2011-05-05 07:49

      @zaatheist so you saying that Christians must be poor in order to be considered Christian? That is a myth perpetuated by Catholicism to enrich themselves. BTW the Pope is not Christian, he is Catholic, yes there is a big difference.

      Han Solo - 2011-05-05 08:17

      Damask. The Catholic church is part of the christian faith. WikiPedia says (first paragraph): "The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the world's largest Christian church, claiming more than a billion members." Please research these things before making REALLY silly comments like that. PS: Ah.... we meet again.

      MadMatt_88 - 2011-05-05 08:26

      That this superstition has permeated the highest levels of government and electoral debate shows the overall asininity of the populace.

      Vaal Donkie - 2011-05-05 08:41

      Wikipedia says so, so it must be true. I can call lyself black, but that doesn't change the colour of my skin. The catholic church is an invention of the roman empire. It incorporated Christianity into other pagan practises and they even worship pagan deities i nthe form of their saints. That is one of the reasons for the Protestant reformation. It pays to know your history.

      Johan de Klerk - 2011-05-05 08:42

      @ Han Solo Seriously, Wikipedia is your source? Come on Dude...

      Christo - 2011-05-05 08:45

      @MadMatt_88, I'm giving you a thumbs up just for the wording of your comment :p

      Han Solo - 2011-05-05 08:45

      Ok ok ok ..... My source is... wookiepedia.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 08:48

      @ Damask. Amen. @ Han solo. "Please research these things before making REALLY silly comments like that". Er, actually you have just displayed YOUR lack of knowledge on this issue. If you knew religious history, you would understand why any Christian who knows better says that the Cathoic church is not Christian. No "Christian" church worships idols, nor does it pray to dead people; nor does it reject the Word of God at any stage to appease the masses; it does not promote murder (Crusades, Inquisitions), let alone murder of Christians (Inquisitions again); nor does it call ANY man "father" or deify a person (Pope, priests); nor do half our practices get directly criticised by the Bible (Purgatory, rosary beads, priesthood, sainthood, papacy, worship of the dead, abstainance from meat on given days, to name a few). So brother... YOU do your research before making silly comments.

      Chris - 2011-05-05 08:55

      Zaatheist - I find your comments a little naive - maybe you should also look at the money grabbing of the athiest leaders (Pol Pot; Stalin; Mao Hitler etal). Oh and by the way before we get into the crusades etc count up how many millions these heroes of Athiesm killed! Read Animal Farm - All are equal but some are more equal than others! You see the one thing that Atheism fails to consider is the total depravity of man - whether they claim allegiance to Christ or not. We are all selfish!

      Matt - 2011-05-05 09:53

      @ Chris - amen. I keep telling this to atheists but they stick their fingers in their ears and go "la la la I don't hear you". Oh, don't forget to mention abortion, because that which was seen as murder (which it is) is, thanks to them, seen as just a foetus, a parasite in the body. Last estimate is about 1 billion murders by abortion. Slightly more than the Crusades, you'll agree...

      Point Blank - 2011-05-05 10:07

      @Matt: "No "Christian" church worships idols, nor does it pray to dead people..." Er, helloooo, you all pray before idols and pray to Jesus who died 2000 years ago.... give me a break. The Catholic Church is the epitome of Christianity...

      Mulciber - 2011-05-05 10:24

      @Point Blank Don't make such a ridiculous statement. We don't worship idols and Jesus certainly is NOT an idol, He is God. Jesus is alive.

      LJ Graey - 2011-05-05 10:26

      Lol. Oh sematics can be so much fun... Nothing like a bit of creative misdirection to liven things up is there? Christians can fight among themselves as much as they like, but that doesn't change the fact that if they identify themselves as christian - which all the denominations do, irrespective of their idiosyncratic rituals and beliefs - then they are consdered christian. And you don't really need Wikipedia, Google, or a believer to figure that out. If you're a follower of Christ, you're a christian. Doesn't matter if you believe he was a hippy, or a communist, or an alien from outer space. To anyone that doesn't believe in him you're still a christian.

      mike - 2011-05-05 10:33

      @mulciber - elvis lives too

      Moi1980 - 2011-05-05 11:11

      @Matt - no actually, we don't worship idols. You should actually take the time to do some further research into the Catholic faith and maybe even attend a mass; you might just learn something.

      Lanfear - 2011-05-05 11:38

      @ Damask, Vaal Donkie & Mat - no you are wrong. The RCC is the ORIGINAL Christian church, don't you know anything about your own religion & its history? Without the Romans endorsing Christianity & creating the RCC, your religion wouldn't even have survived to the present day & there wouldn't have been a Reformation! Including pagan ideas was a ploy to convertion. Wow, talk about selective history. It pays to know the revised NP history that slandered the RCC & warned about the "Roman Danger", neh. The Reformation started as an attempt to reform the RCC, not to break away. Luther himself was an Augustinian monk. The main reason for the Reformation was the corruption of the RCC at the time, especially the teaching & the sale of indulgences, the selling & buying of clerical offices & the authority to absolve sin & remit one from purgatory. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the honouring of Mary, or celebrating xmas, or having saints, etc. Maybe you should read the "95 Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences" by Martin Luther. In a trip to Rome he was was shocked by the corruption of the clergy & especially of Pope Sixtus IV who was the first Pope to impose a license on brothels & a special tax on priests who kept a mistress. He also established the practice of selling indulgences to be applied to the dead. Protest became an avalance with Calvin & others joining Luther. Politics also played a major role [wars etc.] Read some accredited history, not selective drivel.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 11:42

      @ Moi1980. I respect your right to believe what you want. Me, I have spent the past 6 years researching Catholicism (among other things). The Mass, being a Latin translation of "death gathering", whereby the Calvary is effectively made to occur over again (while Jesus said on the day "it is finished"). Like, Trans-substantiation, where the priest claims Jesus IS the wafer he then proceeds to eat? Idol worship. To quote Pope John Paul II: "Mary, mother of God, queen of Heaven, we pray to thee". Now tell me again that you do not worship idols. Or, the Rosary, in which all prayers are directed at Mary, Lady Fatima, even Joseph at one stage, never to Jesus. Just a few quickies for you to read - and yes, you are allowed to read the Bible, don't just trust the priest: Purgatory - Luke 16:20 onwards + ask yourself why Jesus died for you if purgatory were true Mary being sin-free - read Luke 2:21-24 + ask yourself why Mary atoned for her sins; then read Romans 3:23; 5:12; Psalm 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47 (the timeless irony is that "the 12 Days of Xmas" was written as a specifically Catholic carol, yet refers to Luke 2:21-24 which proves false doctrine) Celibate priests, not eating meat on Friday - 1st Timothy 4:1-3 will stun you. (I can go on for ages like this) Finally - if the RC Church doesn't do idol-worship, why did the Catechisms remove the 3rd Commandment (idolatry) and split the 10th into 9+10? What are they hiding?

      Spyker May - 2011-05-05 12:07

      If Jesus was a communist then Africa is his ‘Mount Calvary’.

      Point Blank - 2011-05-05 12:32

      @Mulciber, of course you do, you kneel before the cross? Pray in front of the Mother Mary? Symbolism all around you in church? And I hate to break it to you, Jesus is really dead. But moving on, I have no desire to debate religion today.

      Moi1980 - 2011-05-05 12:46

      @matt - Praying to Mary and asking for her to intercede on our behalf does not constitute idol worshipping. When praying the Rosary, we do also say The Lords Prayer, so Jesus and God are mentioned. Yes, Jesus died, and then he rose from the dead. So we don't celebrate His death, we celebrate His return. You do realise that Catholics have weekly Bible study groups - i.e. reading and discussing the Bible. You seem to have a very biased and somewhat skewed opinion with regards to Catholics. Don't blindly trust everything you read.

      Mulciber - 2011-05-05 12:47

      Christianity would not have survived if Jesus didn't rise from the dead. It would have been buried with Him and stayed with Him in the grave.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 12:48

      @ Lanfear. Were it not for the Reformation, you would not have access to read the Bible. For centuries the RCC banned people from reading or quoting it under pain of death. Christianity refers to worship of Jesus Christ. Can you give me a Bible verse that says it's OK to worship Mary? The only reference in the Bible to "queen of heaven" is in Jeremiah (twice), where it speaks of the pagans. I do know Catholic history. I know my points are valid as I've witnessed Catholics converting to Christianity; they validate my points each time. Here's another one. The Vatican claims that they are the true church because the first pope was the Apostle Peter. Now for the truth: - this is based on Jesus saying to Peter "you are the rock upon which the church will be built". Shortly after, Jesus calls Peter Satan. Read the whole passage and Jesus is clearly referring to the attitude. - From 70AD to 290AD, Rome practiced persecution. How then would it have a pope or bishop? - There is no proof, Biblical or historical, that Peter ever went to Rome. Pope Clement even said this! - The first Pope was Bonifacius III in 610. The title was given by emperor Phocas out of spite towards Bishop Ciriacus who excommunicated him. Why would a Christian compromise the Word with paganism? Compromise dilutes the Word which is infallible. Early missionaries did this so they could report good results to the emperor. Pagan "mother and child" gods became the Catholic Mary and Jesus. Not those of the Bible!

      rugdusty - 2011-05-05 12:52

      "The German census of May 1939 indicates that 54 percent of Germans considered themselves Protestant and 40 percent considered themselves Catholic, with only 3.5 percent claiming to be neo-pagan "believers in God," and 1.5 percent unbelievers. This census came more than six years into the Hitler era"

      Lanfear - 2011-05-05 13:36

      @ Matt - as has been pointed out to you numerous times now, by Catholics and non-Catholics, they do NOT worship Mary! If you really studied the RCC [objecitvely!] for six years, you should know that by now. Yes I agree with your comment about reading the bible. The Reformation actually went hand-in-hand with the Enlightenment and the Rennaisance. It was a time of progress when people came out of the so-called [incorrectly termed] Dark Ages. During the middle ages the church basically ruled, and considered the ability to read, write, study, etc. to be the province of the church and the nobility. But it was not only the Reformation but also the progress of the period that led to literacy and bible study by ordinary people. Just WHERE did I say that Peter was the first Pope? You are the 2nd person to imply I said that and I didn't! Christianity was a loose sect with various small churches and city-bishops before the coherence and organisation of the RCC. Which enabled not only the survival of the religion as known today but also the wide spread it enjoyed. And paganism was incorporated for conversion reasons, to appease and beguile the pagans. And just to add, your "true infallible word of god" i.e. the bible, also rose from pagan stories and myths. Read the history!

      Matt - 2011-05-05 14:06

      @ Han solo - about Wikipedia. There's some great info on there. Just bear in mind that it also has a lot of bias, be the page religious or non-religious. I've known of a Wikipedia page so full of bias, that people tried to have it edited by sending in info and facts, and they still kept the page as is. So yeah, use it on something simple like for dates, for movie info or something, but not for current affairs or religion. Oh, and 2 weeks before OBL got whacked, Wikipedia reported his suicide.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 14:23

      @ Lanfear. The origin of the Pope; YOU did not say it. The VATICAN said it. Over and over again. Last time it was in the media was about a year ago, Benedict XVI reaffirmed it. Prayer to Mary - BASED ON WHAT SCRIPTURE ? Just a name and number, that's all I ask. Otherwise, how do you understand John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. " Now, "by me" does not read "by Mary, Lady Fatima, St Jude, any Pope of choice". Or, what of the countless statues of Mary? Lourdes? Images of a large Mary with a wimpy baby "Jesus"? Images of Mary with holes in her hands from crucifixion? How often does the Word not say directly, do not worship idols? I know you guys have weekly studies; I'm sure Mary's other children weren't a study topic (btw, Catholic Bible deliberately changed reference to Jesus's brothers and sisters to "cousins" to cover that one up). To date I (nor the Catholics I've known before around the world) have never had actual Bible study, where they open the Bible, read a whole chapter and interpret for themselves. Normally it goes hand-in-hand with Catechisms, the mouthpiece for Rome which sometimes spouts some utter evil (I doubt you believe this, but catechisms have taught before that man is God). My dad-in-law, a Protestant, was asked to assist in a Catholic Bible study. He started off with a prayer and they were shocked - how could he lead a prayer, he's not a Priest!

      Matt - 2011-05-05 14:39

      @ Lanfear - how on earth can you be a Christian - you say the Bible comes from pagan myths? Did I also mention that it is part of the RCC's agenda to DIScourage followers from reading God's Word? The Vatican knows full well that any Catholic who actually opened it to read it would flee the RCC. Most pagan practices and most Catholic doctrines are easily proven wrong by the Word. And indeed, most Catholics I know either don't even have a copy, or have one but never read it. For if the priest says something, it MUST be true. And that is the one thing that will damn a person. Don't take someone's word for anything in life. Just like with me. I know you don't want to admit I'm right about most of this stuff; just pick up a Bible and see for yourself. And if I'm wrong, then God can hold me accountable. But I've done 6 years of research, I know plenty of Catholics (I don't hate Catholics, I love them - it's their church that is anti-Christian) and ex-Catholics who back me up with whatever I learn. I also know 1 Thessalonians says "prove all things". I won't just make a rash claim. Final bit of trivia. In 1536 at the Council of Trent, the RCC decreed that if a Catholic kills a Protestant, it is not a sin and they shouldn't be punished. Jaja, 500 years ago. But it is still law, they never repealed it. Sure, most Catholics would never do that, but some do - just a few years ago in Chile and Peru. Scary stuff! (whatever may be, I thought "Christians" would teach "thou shalt not kill")

      Moi1980 - 2011-05-05 14:57

      @Matt - again, we do not worship idols. They are there as symbols/reminders. I've been at plenty of Catholic gatherings where non-priests lead the prayer. You have a lot of misconseptions about the Catholics.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 15:09

      @ Moi1980. What is the difference between an idol and a symbol? The 3rd Commandment says in Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." I think that covers both idols and symbols, don't you? Note the part "ANY likeness". Not worshiping idols - okay, so explain Lourdes? Explain why many people kneel to statues of Mary and pray? Personally I will never look upon a supposed image of Jesus, or even carry a crucifix, let I become an idolator. Another thing. Another difference between Catholic and Protestant is that Protestants are "sola scriptura". If you can prove my words wrong, and your ideals true, with Scripture, then we're talking. 1 Thess 5:21 "prove all things". This is not a lie I promise; out of all the Catholics I've known, only ONE quoted Scripture. ONE. Sadly he was also wrong; in that case, he used Jesus's 3 days in hell to prove Purgatory; forgetting Jesus is God and can do anything - Luke 16:20 clearly shows WE can't move between heaven and hell, rendering purgatory impossible. Oh, besides the fact that if you pay for your sins, why did Jesus bother to die then? Just an exercise, up to you to do this. Next time at church, ask the priest how purgatory is possible when reeading Luke 16:20 onwards and then why Jesus died for you. My money's on "don't question my authority". Just try :-)

      NEWS24SUX - 2011-05-05 15:30


      GreatSA - 2011-05-05 16:47

      Both christians AND catholics pray to idols (a big no no according to the bible). Jesus is NOT God, he is the "son of God" (APPARENTLY). And Mary is not God, she is the mother of Jesus. Both Idols no matter which way you look at it.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 16:47

      @ Lanfear, Moi1980 - just to say that despite the debating, I do respect you both - even as we differ, at least you are sticking to what you believe in. All the same, do read the Bible; God loves you more than anything but there has been a lot of lying! Check - it lists all pagan practices in the RCC and then uses Scripture to show what God really thinks about it. Maybe interesting to read and discuss one evening. And don't take anything for gospel, even the link - let the Word of God be true and every man a liar. Peace

      Moi1980 - 2011-05-05 19:27

      @Matt: to me, there is a very big difference between a symbol and an idol. When I'm standing in front of the crucifix and I bow my head in prayer, I'm not praying to the crucifix, I'm praying to God. The crucifx serves as a symbol/reminder of the awesome sacrifice He made. I have a King James bible, and while I do not claim to know it inside out, I do believe that it is the accepted "Christian" bible, which majority of Christians refer to. Lourdes has great significance to Catholics, as I'm sure you know. We consider it a blessed, holy place, as Mary is reported to have "appeared" there; which is why her statue is there and why it's such a special place to go to to pray and praise the Lord. Surely you must realise that it's not only Catholic priests that lie to their congregation??? I'm very pleased to say that our parish priest is an absolutely wonderful man (in my mind, he is a true example of a @good Christian)and he is always available and willing to discuss anything and everything. I have to add, I'm happy with my choice in being a Catholic. I concede that the Catholic religion has it's flaws but then, so do all religions.

      FreeHeart - 2011-05-06 10:12

      The Roman Catholic Church is the largest church in the world, and all other churches stemmed from it. Most people are so misinformed, so I call you to a challenge: Visit a catholic church one Sunday, and go see what it is all about. They too serve God and believe in Christ as the way. That in my book makes a CHRISTian. On another note: God does not tolerate blasphemers. Period.

      Matt - 2011-05-06 10:35

      @ Freeheart. Last time I went to a Catholic Church was the huge one in Cologne. Bosnian refugees breastfeeding on the doorstep as the worshippers were doing their thing. You hit the nail on the head. You BELIEVE in Jesus. Yes sir, so do Satanists. They're not Christians, we all agree. Accepting that Jesus died for your sins and is your personal Lord and Saviour is what makes a Christian. Often have I known Catholics; growing up in a country where Catholics outnumber Protestants, as well as many here. Strangely, they all verify what I say. None, bar one, ever quote scripture. None explain doctrines to me that are stricly Catholic. "Go to our church one day" doesn't cut it for me. Just going by the posts, one steadfastly holds to idols/symbols while not answering Exodus 20:4. One says the Bible is mythical and pagan, so I ask that if you relegate the Bible, why bother using it? If you call Genesis mythical, well Jesus referred to it often and the NT does 200x, so is Jesus then a liar or dumb? The whole Mary worship (oops, "reverence" which means the same thing basically), let alone Lady Fatima, St Jude, Pope JP2 (see the reason of his beatification), all I ask is ONE Bible verse that says this is even allowed? Then read John 14:6 and tell me where these dead people fit in? Or tell me how purgatory is possible after reading Kuke 16:20 onwards, let alone answer why Jesus then bothered to die for you?

      Matt - 2011-05-06 10:37

      @ Freeheart - "The Roman Catholic Church is the largest church in the world". Yes I know. The ANC is the largest party in SA, does that mean that they are right? Majority rule doesn't mean correctness. If it did, the Jews would never have left Egypt...

      FreeHeart - 2011-05-06 11:46

      @ Matt I don't want to argue with you, because we are on the same side here. What I meant by belief in Jesus who is Christ and Messiah is to believe he died for our sins and that he is the way. That is exactly what Catholics also believe. The believe in the Holy trinity, which is God, Christ and the Holy spirit. My mom is Italian, and Catholic raised. She raised me to be a Christian. I am very steadfast in my beliefs, and have a close personal relationship with God. My mom planted the mustard seed in me. She is not without her faults, but I have followed her example in following Christ, and it is a credit to her that I walk with God. I don't follow a church, but God. It is so true what you say, even satan believes in God, and atheists don't. I feel such a great sadness for them. Anyway, I just think you are maybe "sitting die pot mis" a bit and you are a bit too judgmental, when it comes to the Catholic Church. I don't think they are as extreme as you think. The symbols in the church are not idols. Buddha is an idol, as he is not a living God and is worshipped. Mary is not worshipped, but she is seen as holy, because God chose her to be mother to Christ (God). She was pure enough. She is seen as the mother of mothers, and blessed of all woman Luk 1:41-45. That is not idolatry when you look up to someone. Take a bit of a less bias and extreme look, before you tread.

      Matt - 2011-05-06 12:57

      @ Freeheart - I'm glad you know Jesus died for your sins! Just 2 things that I would love clarification on: - Jesus died for our sins. But the RCC teaches Purgatory. This is, you go to hell to pay for your sins, once that's done you go to heaven. 1) why did Jesus die then? 2) in Luke 16:20 onwards, Jesus tells of Lazarus (there are 2 Lazaruses ni the NT) and the rich man. Both died; Lazarus is in heaven and the rich man in hell. Angels went to see the rich man. He begged that Lazarus give him relief. Answer: no, there is no movement between heaven and hell. Once you're there, you're there. Purgatory either ignores this, or calls Jesus a liar. - Mary worship. Sorry, it IS worship and idolatry. When Pope JP2 said to a congregation: "Mary, mother of God, Queen of Heaven, we pray to thee", is that not praying TO Mary? I was told by a former Catholic that to obtain riches, she prayed TO St Jude. Or JP2's beatification, due to the nun who prayed TO him to be healed. I understand Catholics believe they pray to Jesus via Mary. But where in the Bible does it say this is OK? Jesus Himself said "no man cometh unto the Father but by me" (John 14:6). There is no extension "via Mary". Mary was a good lady and gave birth to Jesus, but was no deity (holy) and she even stressed this. Already this means me denying Immaculate Conception, which Catholics haven't believed all that long, 200 years tops. Prayer should go to God directly, via Jesus who IS God (part of the trinity).

      FreeHeart - 2011-05-06 14:16

      @Matt I just think that we should not be concerned about a religion that believes in Christ after all. We should be concerned about those who think it is all a fairytale. I can't say the Catholic church is right in all it does, just like i can't say any church is right in all they do, they are all fallible in my eyes. Look at what Henry VIII did in the name of the Church of England. Was he right? I don't think the things of old, are as stressed today as they were before in the CC. I just know that I was encouraged to pray to Christ and not to Mary. My mother doesn't pray to Mary either. The emphasis in my family has always been on Christ and the holy trinity. The saints including mary are given thought and respect, but are not worshiped as if they are God. They are special people, who are blessed by God for what they have done, who went through extremes for their faith, something very few Christians will be willing to do in this day and age. Anyway, you are right that we should pray to God through Christ, and not through anyone else. Should I know this, being brought up by a Catholic? Maybe I am different. I am not a Christian that lets myself be influenced by institutional garbage. I know what I know, and I walk my path with Christ, and he is King of my life. Isn't that what is important, instead of all this other things? Godbless Matt. I am glad to see a fellow believer on this site taking on the atheists. Hopefully we can open a few eyes.

      Matt - 2011-05-06 15:32

      @ FreeHeart - I really appreciated that last message :-) Not praying through Mary is definitely un-Catholic, but I'm glad to hear you both don't! As Jesus said, "ask and ye shall receive" And always a pleasure to debate atheists - as much as they call me, us, believers stupid and mock for fun, as atheists and theists disagree completeley with each other, the guys on here have been relatively decent. Often I find atheists are far more insulting and disrespectful than what you see here. Just as a tip, expose the "I'm smart, you're dumb" attitude as most of them display it; don't retaliate if they start personal attacks (international display of having no answer); the rest I guess is up to us! Do have a great weekend :-)

      Matt - 2011-05-06 15:56

      @ FreeHeart - you're right about the Church of England. My nation's state church :-) but facts are facts, it was started because Henry VIII wanted a divorce. A bad seed!

  • Francis - 2011-05-04 23:08

    A Pastor of what church may I ask? No decent man of God would speak in this way, this is probably some wannabe preacher with no theological background whatsoever. It is people like this that give Christians a bad name. This is another reason why no intelligent person would ever vote for the ANC

      Warren Pridgeon - 2011-05-05 10:14

      @zaatheist I am not a decent man of god... I am a decent man of God. I am neither money grubbing nor a con artist... and I am the first to admit I am far from perfect... You have never met me, so don't paint me with the same brush.

      Jo - 2011-05-05 10:28

      Once again, I welcome statements like the ones made here - if nothing else will wake voters up, at least the believers know exactly how much this neo ANC despises them and what they believe - black, white, coloured and asian Christians know exactly where they stand. And, as usual, haters of Christianity like the neo ANC will never have the guts to state that they are Mohammed and Allah. It's all good - they are telling us the truth about themselves - it's up to us to believe them.

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 11:01

      zaatheist is a moronic internet troll.

      NEWS24SUX - 2011-05-05 15:32


      NEWS24SUX - 2011-05-05 15:33


  • Common_Sense - 2011-05-04 23:21

    What do the ANC actually have without the race card, the religious card and the struggle card? ZIP!!

      WIZZ - 2011-05-04 23:39

      without all these things they'll have Helen Zille in power!!

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 07:41

      So DO NOT fall for the divisive tactics and use your energy on being "offended." Offence will not help. Your vote will.

      50something - 2011-05-05 07:46

      They are desperate mate, have no scrupels and will stop at nothing. All of a sudden they are so holy, but how many of them can call themselves true Christians as they are now alluding to be?

  • howdy - 2011-05-04 23:23

    As a born-again Christian, I find this pastor (sic) completely out of line. President Zuma, by no means, is a Christian, and neither are the 'unholy' trinity, as mentioned in this article. Zuma's history confirms this. This pastor? must be a representative of the church of Satan.

      WIZZ - 2011-05-04 23:41

      get thee to a nunnery Mr Zuma. No 6 wives there! Then you'll really have to pray to get lucky

      Francis - 2011-05-05 00:14

      I fully agree with you, I too am a Christian, this pastor is totally out of line and is not a Christian by any means of the word. I think he gives true meaning to the "Anti-Christ". I find his ideas totally offensive and I think if Zuma had any b@#Ls he would say something about this nonsense

      cerveza - 2011-05-05 05:44

      @howdy and Francis - where were you when the DRC supported Apartheid and promoted hate and racism? Do you consider their leaders of that period as representatives of the church of satan?

      Zinki - 2011-05-05 06:20

      Cerveza, the DRC has come a very long way since 1994. They are with it. The ANC, however, are still stuck in 1945!

      paulf - 2011-05-05 07:00

      Signs of the times as it was written. False profits will rise at the end of times and here we have it.

      cerveza - 2011-05-05 07:10

      Oh what double standards you people have, when you read about a pastor supporting someone you don't like you call him a satanist, but when someone mentions the "dominees" of yester year you prefer to look the other way. How do you expect understanding reconciliation if you cannot even be honest with yourself

      moiraine - 2011-05-05 07:11

      @cerveza - so if somebody has done something wrong you cant repent and try and live better in the future? In that case our entire government have no right to speak anyway.

      cerveza - 2011-05-05 07:57

      @moiraine - this is not about repenting and being better, I have tremendous respect for that, this is about people throwing stones that do not live without sin, and instead of stopping to throw stones, they rather deny their sins and act if it has never happened Yesterday there was an article about de Lille and nepotism, and all the usuals that are anti-corrupt, anti this anti that, did instead of saying if it is true she must be held accountable, they just said the ANC is worse and she learned it from them. That is the type of hypocrisy that the self proclaimed "good" people commit daily and place the blame on the ignorant masses, but when the tables are turned they act no different from the people they blame for their problems

      Damask - 2011-05-05 08:01

      I wouldn't call that "pastor" a Satanist, but he is not a true believer in Jesus if he said those things. Someone who has a relationship with Jesus would not blaspheme the way he did. @cervesa Just because they were "dominees" doesn't mean they understood what having a real relationship with Jesus is all about. If they did, they wouldn't have supported apartheid.

      Zinki - 2011-05-05 08:09

      Cerveza, yes, the DRC were very wrong in the past and they have acknowledged that and moved on into the 21st century. Where are the ANC? Still in the past century spewing racism from public platforms in 2011. How can likening Zuma to the Father, Son or the Holy Spirit be right??? Tell me?

      cerveza - 2011-05-05 08:17

      @Damask - I agree with both your statements, both this pastor and the old dominees either did not understand relationship with Jesus, or they deliberately used religion to support political and racist agendas. Either way if the people can label the pastor a satanist for doing basically the same thing their own dominee did where they went to church or their parents went to but they did not complain about it, they are hypocrites. They are living under a label and can only judge people according to a label, whether the label in race, religion or politics, until people can think without labeling everything they are nothing but ignorant sheep and will stay that way forever, blaming other sheep for being the same things they do

      cerveza - 2011-05-05 08:28

      @zinki - I never said it is right, so because I think christians that support apartheid is wrong means I must support the ANC? where is that logical. I am against all forms of abuse, hypocrisy and taking credit for others achievements. All of these things are rife in the current ANC but it is also on what the Afrikaner history is build on, and to deny this is to deny your history and making you the same as the current ANC that you despise, just like the ANC is looking more and more like the Apartheid regime. You are blinded by your own label

      Matt - 2011-05-05 09:09

      @ Cerveza. I hear you regarding the DRC. But is that God's fault? That's like if Man United play, Wayne Rooney decides he wants to leave so scores an own goal; is that Sir Alex's fault? Another interesting point. The apartheid government supported evolution because it gave apartheid credibility. They used the concept of "certain races are further evolved", including bogus scientific reports from 1960s USA, to "prove" racial difference and superiority. BUT the DRC objected because the majority of SA is Christian and evolution is anti-Christian. So as a compromise, creation was taught by the church and in schools, but evolution was taught in universities. When the ANC took over, they assumed that creation was the cause of racism and so schools now only teach evolution. The irony? Creation says that God created us all equal, that we are all of one blood - the ideal that ANC allegedly believes in. Evolution preaches superiority of certain kinds and races and is excellent fuel for racism; the Germans, the Japanese, the Russians, all used it to great effect. Just think - how is it possible that someone who never knew evolution could racially abuse a black with "monkey"? Unless you believed evolution, you could never have possibly compared the two. The only "benefit" evolution has had for the ANC is "hey look at us, it began in South Africa". Yeah and it was proven to be false decades ago... But hey, this is the world we live in...

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 09:17

      @Matt - clearly you have ZERO understanding of the theory of evolution.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 09:29

      @ mbossenger. What you're saying is "I'm dumb, you're smart". I have far more understanding than you realise, having studied both sides for years. That's why I skirt around the BS and tell it like it is. Assuming you DO know the theory ;-) which evolution do you believe in exactly? There are 6 definitions of the word. I say that anyone who believes in evolution believes they came from a rock. Atheists hate me for that! "No we don't, you don't understand the theory". Yet again, "I'm smart, you're dumb". OK so here we go. Remember, this is your belief, not mine. About 4.6 billion years ago the earth formed. About 3.9 billion years ago it cooled down. It rained on the ROCKS for millions of years... created the primordial soup. To quote various textbooks, life "must have emerged" (that is a RELIGIOUS STATEMENT, not science) from this soup. Then fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals ("FARM" - directly opposite to the Bible) - and somewhere along the line we came from apes. So, your great-grandpa was a monkey, his great-grandpa was a bowl of soup and his great-grandpa was a rock. And they call religious people dumb... simply put, take away "billions of years" from the theory and what is left? Frog turned into a prince... I can't make this stuff up!

      cerveza - 2011-05-05 09:39

      @Matt - where did I blame God? I like God, I blame people like you who uses his name to spread intolerance and hate. And as for you blaming evolution, the apartheid (and pre-apartheid) government considered them to be the chosen people and compared the groot trek to the Jews wandering in the desert, they got their "proof" any way they wanted. it was not about evolution, creationism or any other theory, it was just about survival and dominance by any means possible, "we are right, and we can twist anything to show it" kinda like you are trying to do to with your anti-evolution dribble at the moment

      SaintBruce - 2011-05-05 09:47

      @ mbossenger - Go and read the Full title of Mr Darwin's little book ! It is ALL about the superiority of certain races over others. Heck - it even inspired Karl Marx and Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and many others to have no conscience in genocidal acts. So right back at you on the 'get your facts straight'. Also - check Darwin's book and see for yourself in his own words where he states " if it could be shown that as we go deeper into the structure of the human cell and found more complexity, it would completely undo my entire theory." Modern Biology now sees so much complexity in the working of the cell ( much not yet understood) that the 'great' man turns in the grave, his theory in tatters. It takes great faith to believe such a fantasy. having witnessed the supernatural first hand I don't have such faith in a fantasy but only in the reality of what the Bible established as true and has tested true.

      SaintBruce - 2011-05-05 10:01

      @ Mbossenger and Cerveza - once you have engaged or experienced the supernatural - as I and many others have - you have to start questioning the blank canvas of these theories that simply exclude the presence of a spirit world. I cannot make you understand the reality of the spririt realm, that you have to find out for yourself. But as a scientist myself I now question the basis on which the theory of evolution is founded and Matt has stated what the text books say - which is such drivel - that we came from the rocks! The fact that you can read and comprehend this message means that you have something that reaches beyond simple chance. I have read Dawkins and others who pan Christianity, yet they pander to an uneducated and inexperienced audience - a 'club' if you will - that wants to hear what is said but denies the reality of the spirit realm. The bulk of the peoples in Africa know the spirit realm very well so evolution does not stick with them. They are smarter than than that. No Pastor - ordained or not - can 'anoint' an unbeliever. Jacob Zuma worships his ancestors not Jesus Christ so the actions of the 'pastor' are inappropriate and misguided. The ANC should be wary of angering the true living God.

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 10:03

      @Matt - 6 definitions? This sounds suspiciously like you have received your education from Kent Hovind. The rest of your post talks about the origin of life, which has nothing to do with evolution (the origin of species).

      Matt - 2011-05-05 10:04

      @ Cerveza - I FULLY agree that there are some churches out there who take a Bible verse, twist it and use it. Cults and Sects do this all the time! Some churches even add their own ideas to it - the DRC is Calvinist, and ultra-Calvinists believe that certain people CANNOT be saved. Hmm and who chooses who those people are? Not God, that's for sure! However, for the rotten apples out there, remember that they are at fault - it doesn't mean that God is bad, nor does it mean that Christians have a wrong belief. Atheists often look at a bad example and use that as proof that the whole lot is wrong. Evolution - it's only dribble when you can't provide a decent argument against it! The pages here are full of atheists ready to mock and belittle religion. They fail to realise that they are in a religion themselves! Religious belief that there is no God, which they spread with religious zeal. But then comes the big problem - where did we come from? As atheists have no God to create them, they are compelled to BELIEVE in the Big Bang and evolution theory, which has since become a RELIGION - after all, you have to BELIEVE it to be true. Without evolution, Atheists cannot be! So, when people start attacking people about their religion and fairytales, it's important just to remind everyone that even the non-religious among us are religious, both of us believe in a story, it's just up to us both to prove which of the two is likely to be true. And it certainly isn't evolution/Big Bang :-)

      cerveza - 2011-05-05 10:17

      @Saint Bruce - Are confusing Karl Marx with somebody else, or did you deliberately put his name in that group? Karl Marx was against the inequality that was created and his writings inspired a more equal world, but i guess you know that and that is why you only quoted Darwin And please tell me, who was the people in Germany that stood up against Hitler and his fight for a superior race, was it the christians or the communists? You only look at the parts of history you want to see, and only interpret what you want to proof your personal agenda, you are no different than any extremist of any religion

      cerveza - 2011-05-05 10:32

      @Matt - please tell where I ever said that god does not exist or that it is a fairy tale, I never have, that is not my goal, my goal is to prevent people from spreading hate by claiming it is god's will, the bible said so etc. i am also against people taking credit for what is not theirs and scaring you to do what they say, like christians claiming you can't be good if you are not a christian, for me it is the same as the ANC claiming that you can only go to heaven if you vote for them. It is just forcing people to join a group, to label them selves and to label others. i mean all religions claim to be the only truth and the only way to be good, yet I have met both good and bad people in all major religions and history shows me every "label" has done good and bad things, calling yourself anything does not make you good or bad, your actions do

      Matt - 2011-05-05 10:50

      @ mbossenger - regardless of where I get my info from, doesn't change the fact there are 6 forms of evolution. So which one do you believe in? You say the origin of life (organic evolution) has nothing to do with evolution. Why then is the atheist explanation that life "emerged" from non-life, and that these life forms then evolved (macro evolution)? Sounds like evolution to me. @ Cerveza - that's the irony though. There are some people who don't understand Christianity and they look down on others. Other strands who identify themselves as Christian (but are not) teach that WORKS save you, which goes directly against the core value of Christianity. It is so simple - if you accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, you are saved and bound for heaven. If you don't, you go to hell. It's plain and simple. Yes, we are meant to live good lives, but nowhere does it say that you HAVE to do good things, nor does it say that non-believers cannot do good things. And why do good deeds not save you? "lest any man should boast". Example: you give R10 for a good cause but nobody will ever know. Glory be to God. Another gives R100,000 to a good cause - will he do it in secret? No, he will give a 2-metre long cheque and have his picture in the media, so everyone can say "look how GOOD he is!". Or maybe it's a company doing it for tax breaks or good publicity. Glory goes to that person...

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 11:05

      There are not "6 forms of evolution" - the theory of evolution deals with the origin of species of plants and animals.

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 11:09

      @ Matt No, you have little understanding of evolution. I can see this because I was in your shoes once (a YEC). Evolution is purely a biological phenomenon - all it explains is how species came to be. Yes, evolution produces according to kind; for example, a crow is a corvid (a kind), which in turn is a passerine (a bird kind), which in turn is a bird (a kind), which in turn is an amniote (a kind), which in turn is a tetrapod (a kind), which in turn is a vertebrate (a kind), which in turn is an animal (a kind) of the Kingdom Animalia. In short, evolution is simply the change in allele frequencies through time.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 11:50

      @ Flamewulf - define "explains". As yet there is no scientifically observable explanation of the sort - believers use micro-evolution (kind produces forth after their own kind) and then assume the rest is true. That doesn't explain how e.g. a human came from an ape, definitely not from a rock. @ mbossenger - so the mystery dot/nebula didn't expand and the gases/dirt evolve/come together to form planets? Did chemical elements not evolve into other chemicals, otherwise where did the chemicals come from? Oh and how did non-living material evolve into living material? It simply isn't possible... so let's avoid kinds producing after their own kinds, this is true after all, and let's see some proof that we came from apes, from primordial soup, or from the rain and the rocks. If you have proof, it saves a debate.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 12:01

      @ Flamewulf. Or in short, a rock can become an ape and an ape can become a human if there's enough time. OK, so if I say that man can grow wings one day and fly, I'd be called an idiot. If I said that man slowly started walking through air over millions of years, does that make it realistic. That's what it boils down to. Something that is impossible, unprovable, but "give it enough time and it will happen". Take away "billions of years" and look at what they teach once more. Funny how there are so many obstacles to evolution, and the solution is to add more time. As for time - the Bible shows us about 6000 years, added up by study of the mentioned genaeology. Evolutionists age the earth by some 40 years per minute. As we are now taught the universe is 20 billion years old, I must ask, how do we know? Were we there? Do we have a cave drawing of something that tells us the age of the earth? Time certainly doesn't prove that non-life can become life, nor does it prove that one kind becomes another. You assume that with time, one kind can transform into another kind, because both are kinds. Can a scooter become an aeroplane? No. But both are kinds of transport... "well, given enough time..." The huge amount of time used for evolution only serves to boggle one's mind. The average brain cannot cope with huge numbers like 20-billion, so people are likely to assume it's true without thinking about it.

      cerveza - 2011-05-05 12:42

      @Matt - you are contradicting the bible, the book you claim holds the only truth, how is this possible if you are not just another one of the long list of people even you admit that are just using the bible for their own personal gain and are not true christians? "Other strands who identify themselves as Christian (but are not) teach that WORKS save you" "but nowhere does it say that you HAVE to do good things, nor does it say that non-believers cannot do good things." “Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself” (James 2:17). "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you" (Luke 6:27-28) each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work” (1 Corinthians 3:13) So my last words of advice for you is from the good book it self "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside"

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 12:47

      @ Matt "Or in short, a rock can become an ape and an ape can become a human if there's enough time. OK, so if I say that man can grow wings one day and fly, I'd be called an idiot. If I said that man slowly started walking through air over millions of years, does that make it realistic. That's what it boils down to. Something that is impossible, unprovable, but "give it enough time and it will happen"." Strawman. Abiogenesis is not evolution. "Take away "billions of years" and look at what they teach once more. Funny how there are so many obstacles to evolution, and the solution is to add more time." What obstacles? "As for time - the Bible shows us about 6000 years, added up by study of the mentioned genaeology." The Bible does not tell us that the earth is 6000 years old. "Evolutionists age the earth by some 40 years per minute." What half-baked BS is this? "As we are now taught the universe is 20 billion years old, I must ask, how do we know? Were we there? Do we have a cave drawing of something that tells us the age of the earth?" We use various dating methods, all separate from one another, such as the potassium-argon method and others. "Time certainly doesn't prove that non-life can become life, nor does it prove that one kind becomes another.You assume that with time, one kind can transform into another kind, because both are kinds." Strawman. Evolutionary biologists do not assume that evolution depends on time. Evolution depends on genetics and speciation.

      Johan - 2011-05-05 13:18

      The scientific ignorance that seems to accompany religious observance is truly quite staggering.

      Han Solo - 2011-05-05 13:50

      *Sigh* So what's the alternative Matt? The belief that some cosmic jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree? Remember this is your belief, not mine.... brother.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 16:30

      @ Cerveza. I actually did a whole sermon on faith and works :-) Faith saves you, not works. Just so that you don't think giving to charity gets you into heaven. Faith without works is dead - when you become a Christian, you become a changed person - you'd only understand if it ever happened to you. As you read and grow, you find you actually WANT to be a better person, to do things that are good, to the glory of God. So, there is no contradiction there. Works will not get you into heaven; faith does. Though if you're a man of faith who will let someone die on the street, you should question your faith, but faith is still what saved you. BTW, you keep saying I use the Bible for my own agenda. What is my agenda? I know I can't convert the world, it doesn't affect my life if you all stay atheists. Nor am I pushing an agenda. Even when I show respect, I'm still the boogeyman. But when I see atheists mocking my Lord and Saviour, must I just let you all sound off? No! And when I see atheists mocking Christianity, calling it a fairytale - then I will not keep quiet. That's why I ask about evolution all the time. If you call Christianity a fable, don't get upset when I expose your own fairytale. Also, seeing how atheists simply cannot be atheists without evolution, there you go. And I'm STILL waiting on all of you - where do your morals come from? Proof of your theory? Any ACTUAL explanation at all? "you do not understand" is a poor answer. I do, all too much!

      Johan - 2011-05-05 16:38

      Matt, would you be so kind as to show an objective evidenciary difference between belief in yahweh, zeus, allah, Ra, Wotan and little red riding hood... Consider this your chance at putting the fairytale comparison to rest.

  • WIZZ - 2011-05-04 23:37

    How can you take the ANC seriaasly anymore? We know politics is really just very dirty and they are really pulling out all the stops this time. A trinity of idiots-- let this become a new collective noun for the ANC. Or shoudl I say collective clown(s)? when we see their and the ANCYL circuses. They know how to be offensive and their religious crusade really stinks. Next thing they'll be calling JuJu's hermaphrodite sheep the 'holy goat'. They were born in the bush of pagan gods, so how dare they harness religion when they mostly subscribe to tribal cultures and their ancestors. Why don't the opposition parties start throwing bones and calling upon 'the ancestors' to bless themn and sweep them into power? This would get a hate speech response I guess, so maybe not

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 06:58

      Oh? And christianity was not born from the bush of pagan gods? Read a bit of history, chum.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 09:39

      @ Donald Maasdorp. The Bible NEVER mentions skin colour. NOT ONCE. Go ahead and prove me wrong. The Bible says in Genesis 1:26-28 that God created us ALL EQUAL. And in Acts 17:26 that we are ALL of ONE BLOOD. If you want to criticise something in the Bible, at least have the intelligence to provide the part that you argue against. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - PROVE ALL THINGS. "I am a medical doctor". That's great and I can respect the years of hard study it took you to become one, but that means nothing when it comes to religion. If you think it does, Romans 1:22 "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools". I grew up in Holland where a lot of people have that problem ;-) You see, people of understanding will use simple language, simple terms, whereas people who lack understanding - Atheists especially - instantly have an "I'm smart, you're dumb" attitude. And when the "dumb" respond, they get personal abuse or non-related replies in return... Question to Muslims though, staying on the topic - Sura 6:106,107. does this say whites go to heaven and blacks don't?! Please tell me it doesn't?!

      Matt - 2011-05-05 09:43

      @ Spoedvark. Jesus died on the cross +/- 30AD. Disciples spread the Good News from then onwards. NOT PAGAN. +/- 310AD. Roman emperor Constantine (pagan) "saw a crucifix in the sky" and converted everyone in Rome (pagans) to "Christianity", creating the Roman Catholic Church in the process. Missionaries went to all corners of the empire to convert the pagans, who were unwilling - instead of walking away, as Jesus taught, they incorporated pagan beliefs and practices into the dogma of the RC Church. Only after the Reformation did people have ACCESS to read the Bible, hence all the Protestant churches around since the 16th Century. In other words - Christianity has NO pagan roots. Catholicism does. And any Christian with understanding will tell you why the latter is not Christian.

      craig - 2011-05-05 12:14

      Spoedvark is n dom vark

      Johan - 2011-05-05 12:47

      @Matt, what is the more reasonable explanation, that the words of the bible were penned by a non-racist perfect deity, who claimed hares chew their cud, all creatures should be slaughter for the transgressions of a few, who glorified human sacrifice, who called upon his chosen tribe to slaughter and reject all other tribes and whose eternal plan is a celestial north korea... or that the authors of this bronze age book were ignorant of the concept of race? A little David Hume should make this a simple one to answer.

      Johan - 2011-05-05 12:49

      @ Matt, actually the entire tale of Jesus is an unevidenced claim based on manuscripts written decades after the event they are supposed to describe and portray a jesus figure who bears an uncanny resemblance to figures in greek and egyptian mythology such as osiris and dionysus... crucification included.

      Johan - 2011-05-05 12:56


      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 14:37

      Whatever. The point is Zuma is playing a clever game to get reasonable people of all shapes and sizes to take their eye off the ball. The ball is the local government elections. Nothing else.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 16:41

      @ Johan - or, believe in what atheists believe - that they came from a rock. "Oh you got it all wrong" nope, just not using the difficult words. Dot came from nowhere, nothing exploded, rocks absorbed oxygen that wasn't there, somehow created earth, it was hot, then it was cold, then it rained on the rocks... primordial soup. Life "emerged" (according to textbooks - "emerged" shows religious belief) and via fish-amphibian-reptile-mammal, we all came from an ape. Apparently some of us are a bit slow in coming from apes, hence we have a lot of racism among races because "we're better". Veilig ry, Rocky...

      avaricesa - 2011-05-06 12:45

      @Matt, do me a favour, just according to the bible, how are there other races? Since the bible never mentioned race.

      Matt - 2011-05-06 14:13

      @ avaricesa. The Bible doesn't say outright. There are 2 theories (read: theories) how it happened: 1) certain cults say the "mark of Cain" was God making someone black. There is no evidence or logic to this whatsoever and is racist. Mormons (aka Latter Day Saints) specifically use this. 2) At the tower of Babel. At the time there was 1 nation and 1 language, who were so advanced that they started to abandon God and built a tower to the skies to get to heaven themselves. God struck them down with different languages (to cause confusion) and they all scattered around the earth. Most likely "races" came at this time, but I can't back this up.

      avaricesa - 2011-05-06 14:19

      No evidence then?

      avaricesa - 2011-05-06 14:29

      "God struck them down with different languages (to cause confusion)" Now why would he do that?

      Matt - 2011-05-06 16:19

      @ avaricesa - "God struck them down with different languages (to cause confusion)" Now why would he do that? Well, because as the world became extremely advanced, they used their advances to become a wicked nation; they rejected God. So much did they consider themselves just about equal with God, that they built a tower to get into heaven themselves. God knocked them down a peg or two with different languages and they scattered around the world. IE. working together is often good, but can easily lead to bad as well.

      Matt - 2011-05-06 16:26

      @ avaricesa - "God struck them down with different languages (to cause confusion)" Now why would he do that? Well I kinda answered that already :-) at the time the civilisation was quite advanced, but as they became more advanced and knowledgeable, they professed to be wise; they considered themselves just about equal with God. So much so, that they built a tower into the skies to get to heaven themselves! So God knocked them down a peg or two and they scattered aruond the world. Working together can be good, but as you can see, easily quite bad!

  • Old Nick - 2011-05-04 23:46

    My toes curled with delight when the DRC clergy man introduced the concept of responsibility. Something sorely lacking in our country. Like all the parties who have the word 'christian' in their names (any by the way why are there so many of them?), the ANC has sunk to the lowest possible level of politicing. Suckering people to vote for them by linking their political agenda to the idea of an annointing by the allmighty and ineffable, eternal god, is unspeakably dishonest. I wish them all to burn in hell if only I believed in such a place. Let all those blessed with immunity against such claptrap unite and vote for the only party not tainted by holy folly, oh but wait there isn't such a thing.....'all have sinned and fall short of gods glory'. Oh well, just vote for the least offensive party then. I'll be voting for the lady in blue, I just hope she doesn't do her silly dance again, or I'll have to emigrate.

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 06:55

      I will even tolerate the dance, Nick!

      Gregoir - 2011-05-05 09:40

      "Let all those blessed". But wait Old Nick! Just who or what the hell "blessed" these good folk such as yourself with immunity? Where did that blessing come from? YOU my friend make me laugh long and hard. Thank you. Bye

      Jo - 2011-05-05 10:30

      Once again, I welcome statements like the ones made here - if nothing else will wake voters up, at least the believers know exactly how much this neo ANC despises them and what they believe - black, white, coloured and asian Christians know exactly where they stand. And, as usual, haters of Christianity like the neo ANC will never have the guts to state that they are Mohammed and Allah. It's all good - they are telling us the truth about themselves - it's up to us to believe them.

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-06 19:16

      Strangely enough, Jo, us lot atheists are probably the hardest fighters for freedom of religion. We are (almost) all completely committed to total freedom on that front. We will attack your reasons for being religious, but never your right to hold religious convictions. Strange, but true.

      NEWS24SUX - 2011-05-07 08:19

      @matt ARE YOU FOR REAL ?

  • Tired - 2011-05-04 23:47

    They must be careful. Goliath made lots of blasphemy remarks and mocked God. Then David got angry and with the power of God destroyed Goliath.The bible use lots of tipe and anti- tipe examples which is foretelling the future. Maybe this is a tipe of what's to come?

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 09:20

      Nice story - but has no bearing on reality.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 10:53

      @ mbossenger - what, like the fairytale of Moses parting the seas, which was proven scientifically possible last year? Or the fairytale of Moses unleashing the plagues onto Egypt, which was also proven to be scientifically accurate, both for possibility of happening and within the given time frame?

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 11:11

      what the hell is tipe?

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 12:17

      Nothing in science is "proven"

      Matt - 2011-05-05 13:03

      @ mbossenger. The definition of a scientific fact is that something can be proven, through observation and/or reproduction of the event. (science comes from the word knowledge, the language escapes me right now) So, in order for you to claim that something is science, it has to have been at least observed, and tested. So take evolution; nobody has observed evolution (macro and beyond), nobody has reproduced evolution, nobody has given clear evidence that it has ever happened. Whereas although creation is also a belief, there are at least some interesting points or statements that have been proven, or at least evidence suggests the possibility. Like, God took a rib out of Adam to make a woman; the only bone in your body that grows back when removed is your lower rib. Plus that explains how Eve got her DNA. So there is scientific proof to suggest it is a possibility (but not definite). This, in contrast to the belief we evolved from a different kind, which has not one jot of scientific proof, or even a hint of being scientifically possible.

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 17:34

      You're seriously telling me there's no evidence for evolution?

  • Rev. H-Cubed - 2011-05-04 23:48

    "Vanity, definitely my favorite sin." --- John Milton "The Devil's Advocate"

  • GT - 2011-05-04 23:55

    Nothing like someone stepping on your fairytale.

      Rev. H-Cubed - 2011-05-05 00:17

      Doesn't really matter if you believe it, but it will matter to those who do. You can be dismissive of the beliefs of others if you like, I'm just not sure I understand why it seems to mean so much to you. I haven't seen a single article related to religious or spiritual matters that does not prompt this sort of response from some. Do you think a person will discard what they regard to be their greatest source of strength simply because some antagonist calls it silly? Do you believe that deriding a person is an effective way to establish a dialogue that includes your beliefs? I can't see it working in any of the threads. So what is it? Smugness that you have a better belief system? Let's look at science. It is doomed to know less the more it explores, yet millions pin their hopes that science will explain all. Why do I say it is doomed? Simple historical precedent. Every new discovery inevitably opens multiple new avenues to explore. Every answer spawns more questions. Do the math. They'll never know it all. None of us ever will know it all, so let's not be arrogant about how any group approaches this gargantuan challenge called "Life". Science and religion are fundamentally identical - a quest to understand how our existence functions.

      Rev. H-Cubed - 2011-05-05 01:18

      Never asked you to be in the game GT, just wondering why you feel the need to shout down the game, that's all.

      GT - 2011-05-05 02:00

      Because the religion INSISTS on being part of the game, and NOWHERE has it ever helped. When churches start paying taxes they can have a say in the public discourse.

      willie - 2011-05-05 04:45

      Religion goes back to the beginnings of the human species, just like science goes back to the beginnings of the human species. Both represent quite diffrent strategies of human thinking and should be respected for that. In most scientific communities, these days, claims to objective truth by scientific means would be considered unscientific. Foundationalist thinking, scientific and religious,is in serious trouble. No one can claim truth and that implies humility and responsibility in practicing science and religion and every other form of human knowledge construction.

      Creeky - 2011-05-05 06:53

      In the BEGINNING there was MAN.... and MAN CREATED GOD! Show me someone that has gone TO Heaven..... and came back to tell the tale!!!!!!! The Church is for the POOR and downtrodden! In my book, there is only ONE happiness.... no matter wht religion, creed colour or mindset.... that happiness is a POSITVE CASH FLOW!!!! If you ain't got a POSITIVE CASH FLOW.... you have the Church to fall back onto!

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 06:53

      GT, I beg to differ. When religions can demonstrate the truth or their assertions, they can have a say in the public discourse.

      moiraine - 2011-05-05 07:19

      So only people who pay taxes and can prove their comments with scientific research are allowed to speak out on corruption in this country? Otherwise you must just shut up and accept it? Well, quite frankly I would prefer anyone who can speak to speak up about corruption.

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 07:24

      Rev and others I understand that religion is important to many people - that is why Zuma and his ilk are using it! Unless people start thinking with their heads and not religious emotion and scream "I take offence" at everything, Zuma has this coming election wrapped up nicely. This is divisive and offensive and calculated to be so. The reaction to it is textbook - stuff. Divide and rule. Those people who thought of changing allegiance from the small "Afrikaner" parties to the DA, as an example, are nicely herded into their "old" ways of emotional thinking in an effort to keep them exactly where they are - there where they can make no political difference at all. The sad thing is that it is working like a charm. So rather stop taking "offence" and SEE this for what it is. God does not have a vote - you do. And, if you have time, try to understand why people like me are trying to "jog" people into making rational decisions devoid of emotion and dogma.

      spacemonkey - 2011-05-05 08:03

      @Rev. H-Cubed I don't agree with everything you said, but your overall point is good (and it applies to so many of the 'debates' on this forum). Arguing by trying to tear down someone else's beliefs never works. It ends with both sides smugly believing they've shown the other side up as fools, neither having changed their minds and neither having any greater understanding of the opposing point of view.

      Daz - 2011-05-05 08:37

      @ Spoedvark: You state: "And, if you have time, try to understand why people like me are trying to "jog" people into making rational decisions devoid of emotion and dogma." If this is true then why don't you present arguments that are rational and devoid of emotions. Both you and and GT have your own dogma [The unwavering belief that God does not exist] and you present this dogma with emotion [GT SHOUTING "who the fck are you to question God"]. According to your argument you should not have a say until you can prove the truth of your assertions. Luckily for you and GT and others we live in a country where both you and I get to vote even if neither of us can do this.

      Vaal Donkie - 2011-05-05 08:43

      So, worshiping the state is different how?

      muskeljaatkat - 2011-05-05 08:49

      I know what you are saying GT. "All these silly fools that believe in that religious claptrap! I am so far above it. I'm so smart." But the thing is, you exposed yourself as a fool. If you do not believe in God (and it isn't compulsory, you have a choice) and you want to ridicule it, at least do it with some wisdom and knowledge! There may be fairytale parts in the Bible, insofar you see a fairytale as a parable using one situation to explain another. But large parts of it is philosophy. It is a philosophy of life and of the world, just as there are (of course) many other philosophies. It is a rather successful one to have been one of the pillars of Western civilization. Also, these comments are so childishly rude and disrespectful. Shouldn't you have some respect for other peoples' beliefs? Or possibly some manners? In addition: If you are so above it all, perhaps you should consider that there are people, simple people, who believe, and since their lives are quite hard, they need to believe that they will be rewarded. It brings comfort. What right have you to take that away from them? What do you offer in return?

      Darwinian - 2011-05-05 10:20

      God is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

      Daz - 2011-05-05 11:43

      @ Darwinian: Woohoo you can copy and paste a Dawkins quote. Is that the extent of your search into what God is like?

      GT - 2011-05-05 13:37

      @ Musket - you see there is your problem. If you believe in the bible, you must believe all of it, not just the parts that suite your point of view. You call it philosophy but the Church (ALL of them) agree that it is the full and complete and unaltered word of God. Which is it? When you have decided between yourselves, then you As for it being a pillar of western society - clearly your history is a little backwards. Western society only started progressing when they threw off the chains of religion and free thinkers took over the top jobs. Don't make me give you a history lesson!

      Rev. H-Cubed - 2011-05-05 14:16

      GT, that is nonsense. The Bible comprises many different kinds of documents, being a record of a particular culture, history, popular beliefs, divine worship... the whole range. To "straw man" the Bible by declaring "you have to believe it all" is very revealing of your lack of research into the matter. It is a common, flawed tactic. People love quoting Proverbs as proof of Biblical inconsistency. Proverbs are never taught to be divine law. They are a collection of "popular sayings" of their time, nothing more. And before we go into the "atrocities committed in the name of God" debate, remember this - in every war ever fought, the weapons were conceived and constructed by scientists and engineers, not priests. Every discovery we have made started as an act of faith. The explorer ventures in a direction contrary to the wisdom of the day, purely because he believes he will discover. The science explains the discovery, but it is faith that finds it.

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 14:33

      Daz, if you read my comment again, you will find a reasoned and logical argument without emotion or dogma.

      avaricesa - 2011-05-06 13:05

      @Rev. H-Cubed, "GT, that is nonsense. The Bible comprises many different kinds of documents, being a record of a particular culture, history, popular beliefs, divine worship... the whole range. " I thought the bible was the word of god?

  • Elbie - 2011-05-04 23:59

    So the ANC actively denies the Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, agnostic, atheist etc. worldviews. And is basically telling these people that their vote doesn't matter. This in addition to the vast majority of Christians who could not, would not, cannot accept his interpretation.

      BrokenLink - 2011-05-05 00:37

      Hahaha, good point. But he might be speaking in an Islamic area next week, then his speech will be quite different. Stating completely contradicting points, just to try and win a vote or 2.

  • Benzo - 2011-05-05 00:07

    How desperate can the ANC be? How much did the Pastor cash for his community?

      Creeky - 2011-05-05 06:54

      He has a MILLION members in his church... whom will vote FOR the ANC.. Money / Votes in the bank!

  • Johan - 2011-05-05 00:08

    How long will YOU endure and stand for these insults and mockery against YOU O GOD. Don’t these snakes know that you will use the power of your breath to blow them away, yes even their whole existence will be forgotten. Only the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the GOD of Israel is the true GOD.

      GT - 2011-05-05 00:53

      Have you seen what Israel has looked like for the last 2000 years. I hope you are not wishing the charlie foxtrot on us.

      Gatvol - 2011-05-05 06:04

      Johan I am not a Christian follower, but I am a God fearing man. What people like GT fails to see is that there are a physical reality, and a spiritual reality that co-exists. They just live in the physical world. For those who insult God, don't worry my friend, God will sort them out at a time and place of His choosing.

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 09:26

      You really paint your god as a manic little tyrant, don't you?

      mike - 2011-05-05 10:01

      @gatfol, so according to you god is a bully boy

      Darwinian - 2011-05-05 10:22

      God is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

      MadMatt_88 - 2011-05-05 10:58

      Please tell me how the tribal war god of the israelite tribe, who was carried around in a ark, and was a xenophobic smiter of the uncircumsised, turned into the all loving politically correct omnipresent loving father? Load o bollocks actually. Xians dont read their history, and are too busy censoring and damning every opinion that differs from theirs that they dont even realise the churlishness, petty vindictiveness and utter stupidity of their own beliefs.

      Gatvol - 2011-05-05 11:20

      Yeah whatever Mike. I personally won't insult God. But if you wish to, by all means, you go right ahead. You obviously know better

      bakkebul - 2011-05-05 11:25

      @ Johan: I assume you're not a Christian for spewing hate speech like that. @ Darwinia: As long as you feel better after having gotten that of your chest

      Stox - 2011-05-05 12:13

      Lol Darwinian, maybe we as a species we just deserve it. People never think of it that way. It's easy to blame others or other things than admit our own failings. For example, I'm sure it's all apartheids fault. And besides, for a 'work of fiction' you seem to take it quite literally. Maybe you're taking it 'out of context'? ;)

      Johan - 2011-05-05 13:34

      How bronze age of you namesake...

  • Dawid - 2011-05-05 00:10

    The South African political discourse seems nothing less than lost bull on viagra and steroids in a desert. No goal and vision !!!!!!!!! The ANC is going to experience a severe setback during future elections 'cos of unwanted comments by the stupidest leaders in its circles. Mind you, the church can sleep with peace 'cos of an ancient cathologist view of the "3 persons of God." This is an ancient unbiblical and non sencial untheological view with NO base at all.

      MadMatt_88 - 2011-05-05 12:42

      Well said. It was invented an the Council of Nicea, if I remember correctly, in AD325. Sure as sh1t aint in the bible, or the 'ineffible unfallible word of god' lol

  • Valis - 2011-05-05 00:16

    " responsible use of the Bible" Whahahahahahaha! That's rich :D

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 09:01

      Irony at it's finest

  • c1 - 2011-05-05 00:37

    What was that? I just heard the Pearly Gates close on this one...

  • Jabulani - 2011-05-05 01:29

    This act show the lack of respect for God. I am disgusted by the ANC! The truth is that people are being misled because they are to lazy to read their Bibles. But then again you will only study it if God is close to your hart.

      Andrew - 2011-05-05 02:04

      The more you read the Bible the greater the chance that you will stop believing in it. Ever wondered why atheist are so knowledgeable about religious matters? It's because they studied it.

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 06:49

      Jip. Reading the books cured us.

      GLY - 2011-05-05 08:18

      Risen Ape. I guess that you do not know about Josh Macdowel. He tried to disprove God and ended up believing in Him. The more I read the more i want to know. Science is continually proving that events in the Bible are true. I agree with Jabulani.

      Vaal Donkie - 2011-05-05 08:45

      I am yet to come across an atheist who knows anything about theology.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 09:20

      @ Jabulani - yebo! @ Risen Ape - Atheists knowledgealbe about religious matters? You've got to be joking. Atheists hate the Bible because it chaps their hide. What part of the Bible upsets you? Pornography? Drinking? The idea that maybe there are some life rules? So far, most atheists I've encountered over the years have very little knowledge of the Bible; they copy-paste a quote from somewhere and with that, try to prove a point. If they read the actual passage, or knew better English, they would see differently. Oh, and atheists normally resort to using ancient myths and statements, HOPING the "dumb Christian" doesn't have a response and so "sees the error of their ways". OK, so tell me about the wonders of the religion of Atheism (it's a religion, just because you don't have a church doesn't change that). So, as long as you are making money and have friends, life is good - when all that falls away - believe me, it can happen just like that - you have nobody, nobody cares. Now you are the "weaker species". Nobody loves you. So then you may as well expire. Where's God who loves you when nobody else does? And those who hurt you, you stay bitter and angry with them, "rightly so". But those people don't care, only you are affected by anger and bitterness. If you knew God, you would know how relieving forgiveness is. And the question that NONE OF YOU have answered yet... how do you tell right from wrong? Simple question. Where did your morals come from? Not Grandpa Ape :-)

      mike - 2011-05-05 10:04

      @matt - so sad, you actually don't realise what a complete Ar**hole you are

      Darwinian - 2011-05-05 10:24

      God is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

      Matt - 2011-05-05 10:57

      @ Mike - thanks for the comment. Care to elaborate on why? I mean, I'm so used to atheists resorting to personal attacks on me when they have no means of a decent answer. People with little intelligence always do that - they can't answer so they insult instead, for many that's the cheap and easy way to win an argument. doesn't work with me though. So do you care to share some of your intellect with the world, or will your silence be a testament to your knowledge?

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 11:14

      @ Darwinian: Thanks for quoting Richard Dawkins, who knows nothing about theology and cannot use theology to save his life.

      BurnInEffigy - 2011-05-05 12:43

      @Darwininia - We get it! Very nice, now stfu.

      Johan - 2011-05-05 13:23

      @Matt - Where do your morals come from that allow you to cherry pick a dusty bronze age book of magic? The same place anyone elses come from, the evolved inate sense of moral solidarity that is a necessity in any social primate.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 15:16

      @ Johan - at least people of religion get their morals from a book and can point to them. Atheists don't know where their morals came from. Humanism teaches that there is no god, so WE must be god then. There are no absolutes (question: are you absolutely sure). WE decide what's right and wrong. I hope you realise how dangerous that is! Atheism/Humanism, nor the evolutionary thinking, can possibly explain where moral conviction came from.

      Johan - 2011-05-05 15:39

      @Matt, au contraire. Religious people cherry pick some of their orals from a book that includes the injunction to kill witches, avoid unbelievers and damn homosexuals to hell. You decide what aspect of your particular holy book you do and do not take seriously. I think you didnt read what I said, all human beings get their morals from the inate sense of morality that comes with being an evolved primate. We certainly do know where our morals come from. It is absolutely false to claim that humanism is the insistence that we are god, this is simply a gross misrepresentation. Humanism is merely a philisophy that focuses on interests and values without reference to any divine lawgiver. Indeed, we do decide what's rigth and wrong. We now consider wrong many things that were once considered right, like slavery, racism, oppression of speech and freedom etc. This same process is found in christianity, the moral standards of most churches is unrecognisable from a mere century ago, let alone a millenia. Evolution does explain where morals come from, and history shows how moral beliefs in humans developed over time. Its the same explanation for why we see a sense of morality in other species of animals.

      Gregoir - 2011-05-05 17:47

      @Johan : Really? What animals are you referring to? Chimps perhaps? Like the one that ripped of the womans face after years of being a docile friendly pet?? Animals have no inkling of what morals are, what would they use them for? Why'd some animals develop these "morals" and some not? Why does a lion's sense of "morality" not cause them to "humanely" kill their prey and not eat it while suffering and still alive? Still got too much of that ape genes in you it seems...

      Matt - 2011-05-06 08:47

      @ Johan. Sorry, you are mistaken. If the Bible gives laws ABC, and people ignore or abuse them, the laws are still ABC. You say evolution explains morality. No it does not! It explains nothing. Examples of "proof" are limited to micro-evolution, aka divergent evolution, which show that a kind can produce after its own kind. You can cross-breed a dog, a wolf, both are canines. You can go all the way down do a chihuahua. It's still a dog. Nobody disputes this can happen. But now you magically assume that "all plants and life are related" so that somehow, given TIME, somehow the kind changes altogether. How did humans evolve from non-humans? All I see on this post are examples of how a kind can produce within its kind. Show me the evidence that a kind becomes a totally different kind? Morals could NOT evolve. Explain this. Evolutionary thinking is that the weaker die out and the strongest survive. "survival of the fittest" (why did it survive, because it's strong - why is it strong, because it survived). So, how on earth did you get the moral conviction, compassion, guilt, to KNOW that murder is wrong? Why do you not have multiple partners in bed, seeing how "higher races" should be breeding to create the strongest race? Simple. Once upon a time, THUS SAITH THE LORD. Atheists just copy the 10 Commandments and claim it's evolution. "We are god" IS humanism. You say it isn't, then say you decide what's right and wrong. DUH! If I decided its right to kill you, why is it wrong?

      avaricesa - 2011-05-06 13:18

      @Gregoir, maybe just maybe, we developed morals so that our society can continue to grow?

  • - 2011-05-05 02:36

    If Zuma said a vote for the ANC was to choose heaven, while a vote for the opposition amounted to choosing "hell" he would not have there and then cautioned the pastor who referred to Jesus was a communist], [God anointed Zuma] and the ANC, Cosatu and the SACP were the [Holy Trinity]. This is indicative of the desperation of the ANC and the lengths to which they will go to garner votes. .

  • springbokke - 2011-05-05 04:02

    What else can you expect from a bunch of retards.....Thank $%#@ I'm out of there.....

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 07:49

      Nice christian sentiment there, springbokke!

      rianadk - 2011-05-05 11:37

      @ Spoedvark...Who said "Springbokke" is a cristian?

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 14:39

      So let him come tell us then, rianadk.

  • kevs - 2011-05-05 04:22

    A shame to a political party that is leading a country. I don't know what to say about this, I am completely stunt...dumb-struck. Where are the people that supports this "EVIL", for a lack of words. Where are the christian that support this direction of thought. SPEAK UP OR FORVER HOLD YOUR VOICE, FOR YOU CANNOT HAVE PEACE IF YOU STAND ALONGSIDE THIS PARTY WHILE IT BLASPHEMES THE GOF OF HEAVEN AND EARTH. . The is None like Unto God. I utterly hate this. This is going to haunt the ANC, for Galations 6:7 declares "God is not mocked, whatsoever a man/ person/ system soweth that he/they will reap"

      Creeky - 2011-05-05 06:57

      ".... GOF..."?????? Izat like half a GOFFEL?

  • Zeus - 2011-05-05 05:21

    Dear You all! Howzit! Talk about hypocracy by the former lead church, Die NGK! We find it strange that for 40 years they preached a theology that they now denounce and in their Biblical Theology they believed,lived and benefited from Romans 13: 1-7. They preached " let every person be subject to authorities.For there is no authority except from God" They enforced this with apartheid laws and their Graaf Reinet developed theology was simply called Apartheid, even simpler..The White Aerian Race is superior by color,genetic make-up and intellect.Perhaps they should do as their good book teached," Then do good and you will receive approval";this implies that they should vote for the ANC and to all you hypocrates that attend church on Sunday and hide your own sins as to demonize Zuma..when u sit in church remeber that in the same context( after all your extra-marital affairs which you whiteys do anyway as a cultural practice)"pay respect towhom respect is owed" Now The DRC should refrain from its hypocracy,it istantamount to similarities of the Pharisees that cruzified Jesus! How dare the VVF plus decry no tax paying,they are hypocrates when they go to church,they dont read and understand their own Bible. They paid Verwoerd taxes,and FW and PW. Catch a theological wake NGK! Practice what is in your Bible. Zeus

      jvscooter - 2011-05-05 07:12

      You are such a ass to get into the past again we whities acknowledge that our church in the past did wrong by feeding us bull but my friend we are not living in the past and GOD is not mocked and we never mocked the Allmighty. yes we paid taxes to all those guys and still pay but at least we got some money`s worth from the Verwoerd ,PW and FW what do we get now just sweet bull. So keep your mouth shut and run to another African N%**#% C(*& (ANC) rally and jump up and down and turn over some dumpsters.

      Shadoz - 2011-05-05 07:24

      hey moron last century called they want there town idiots back. When you done would you like to join us in this one and catch a wake up. Do you see the jews hanging onto there past with the germans or have they moved forward. WTFU

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 07:31

      Oooh. Nice christian sentiment there, scooter!

      Daz - 2011-05-05 08:57

      @jvscooter: and you will use this same mouth come Sunday to praise the Almighty! Jesus had a word for people who did this - hypocrites!

      Darwinian - 2011-05-05 10:24

      God is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 11:49

      @ Darwinian: Thanks for quoting Richard Dawkins, who knows nothing about theology and cannot use theology to save his life.

      Rev. H-Cubed - 2011-05-05 12:41

      It's ironic that religious people are accused of being stuck in a mindset created by their doctrine, but when they do in fact change their mindset, they are called hypocrites. It is only the non-believer that views religion as a static monolith. People of faith realise that religion is as dynamic as every other aspect of life.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 13:06

      @ Darwinian. Just a thought, nowt else. Do you know everything? No. Do you know half of everything? No. But assume you knew half of everything; would it be possible for God to exist in the other half that you don't know about?

      Sanity - 2011-05-05 15:49

      My Lord God is love, he's full of mercy & grace hence all those who are blaspheming Him in this forum; he won't punish them for they are blinded and a bunch of ignorant devil worshipers.

  • Saamprater - 2011-05-05 05:50

    Desperation will make a man say anything. Seems the anc is in that position now. But somehow this must remind the Reformed Church of the old-style apartheid NP, because they used the Bible to justify their actions as well, and just look where they are now. So anc, this is your wake-up call.

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 06:46

      I think the ANC learnt their lessons well! Why cry about this now? Many governments and political parties have used the all-too-willing churches in the past. As an example: The RCC climbed willingly into bed with the Nazis in WWII. Did the DRC not preach apartheid from their pulpits for many years? Did they not find authority in the bible for apartheid? Were political rallies not opened with "skriflesing en gebed" for many, many years by the same dominees? The example they set is coming back to bite them in the behind.

  • AndreAngus - 2011-05-05 05:50

    Kettle calling the Pot Black (no pun intended). I would consider both the ANC and DRK unchristian organisations due to their respective history.

  • jakes - 2011-05-05 06:30

    You ANC parasites are playing with fire here, and you know what happens when you play with fire ne?

      craig - 2011-05-05 12:19

      it burns down shacks?

  • The Unknown - 2011-05-05 06:39

    Taken out of context, yet again!

  • thabatao - 2011-05-05 06:46

    History showed that you do not mock GOD. He does not take lightly to statements like this. GOD will deal with them in his ways. I feel sorry for them when he lets loose his wrath. Just wait and be patient.

      jvscooter - 2011-05-05 07:06

      Yebo yes they will pay GOD is not mocked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 09:06

      Oooh - scary

      mike - 2011-05-05 10:07

      i'm quaking in my socks

      Darwinian - 2011-05-05 10:24

      God is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 11:53

      @ Darwinian: Thanks for quoting Richard Dawkins, who knows nothing about theology and cannot use theology to save his life.

  • - 2011-05-05 06:55

    Who cares what the DRC has to say.

  • Serias - 2011-05-05 06:55

    No problem in getting upset over it, they will all wake up one day next to Obama and Lucifer and reap what they sowed on earth.They think they are clever while on borrowed time, so let them carry on, no place for them in the new world. - 2011-05-05 07:04

      The only problem is that they don't die that quickly. They must be stopped while they are still alive.

  • Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 07:05

    Can't you see? Apart from uniting rural and urban black people by giving them all something familiar on the religious side, this is, in my mind, coldly calculated to "offend" whiteys to such an extent that they will react emotionally and run back to their respective "cultural enclaves." This is a masterstroke to divide the opposition. THINK with your BRAINS, people! Not with your emotions.

      mike - 2011-05-05 10:09

      curious, how does one think with emotions?

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 14:41

      Heaven knows how people manage that, mike, but manage they do!

  • Sarel - 2011-05-05 07:06

    Hierdie skepsels " sal belaster wat hulle nie ken nie" So het Vader in Sy Woord geopenbaar! Hulle is die skuim van die aarde die kreature wie se liggame deur die "aasvoels verskeur sal word" Ek is nie ten gunste van enige kerk nie want die kerke is die instansies wat wil voorgee dat hulle verkeerd was en dat hulle god van gedagte kan verander,hulle leiers is die "Baalpriesters" wat Vader lewendig laat afslag het in die Dal Van Kidron. Hierdie misbaksels wat Vader wil gebruik tot hulle aardse verwerplike lewens sal bid dat "die berge hulle bedek" met die wederkoms! Hulle dink hierdie Almagtige God is hulle maatjie! EK VERAG HULLE EN AL HULLE VOLGELINGE!Sarel Pretorius.

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 07:47

      Nice christian sentiment there, Sarel!

  • RemoteMedic - 2011-05-05 07:08

    I work in a country where an apparent "Holy War" is fought. Don't let this happen in the country where I live. Was it not the Communist who persecuted the Christians in the Soviet era? I'm apolitical, but I'm a Christian. Don't mix politics and religion it can and will become very dangerous.

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 08:05

      And the christians who defined the art of persecution? Nobody has clean hands here, Remote. Religion and politics go hand in hand. Always has. Shrewd politicians will always use religion to their advantage. Itr is time that the religious wake up and smell the coffee.

  • Malcolm - 2011-05-05 07:23

    The DRC would be better off not commenting on ludicrus statements from ANC supporters. They get kicks out of making inflammatory statements. Rather have faith and trust, and reserve judgement for God.

  • Dave - 2011-05-05 07:33

    To you guys who don't believe in God, Better think again Hell hath no fury.............

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 07:46

      Like a woman scorned?

      Creeky - 2011-05-05 08:11

      Like a pisssed off Pastor?

      mike - 2011-05-05 10:10

      like ol' zuma and his cronies?

      Darwinian - 2011-05-05 10:25

      God is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

      MadMatt_88 - 2011-05-05 11:11 a Xian throwing his toys out the cot when people dont believe their patently ludicrous fairy tales. Stop worrying about us atheist's mortal souls, we can look after ourselves. Please continue denying the flesh and living in the spirit. I, personally, am making the most of this flesh whilst I am alive to do so. Because after death, existence ceases on all levels.

      rianadk - 2011-05-05 11:41

      @ Darwinian. Did your head get stuck on COPY and PASTE? Great, we get it! Now get over yourself...Live and let live!

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 11:53

      @ Darwinian: Thanks for quoting Richard Dawkins, who knows nothing about theology and cannot use theology to save his life.

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 13:02

      @ Mad Matt: I accept evolution and am a Christian. What's your problem?

      Matt - 2011-05-05 13:15

      @ Madmatt_88. Firstly a quickie; did you know your name (Matthew) means "gift from God"? Anyway, so when you die, nothing happens. I won't speak of heaven and hell. Just look at that though. Don't you get a bit sad about that? What is your world view? Who am I - nobody special, just an organism, a conglomerate of chemicals Where did I come from - 20 billion years ago, nothing exploded Why am I here - no reason. Actually there are too many people so my existence is part of the problem. If I died, "mother nature" would be better off. Where do I go when I die - I become worm food. Did I get that right mate? Now a Christian world view, just out of interest: Who am I - an individual, created by God Almighty, equal to others yet unique (ooh does the Bible suggest DNA in Genesis 1 already) Where did I come from - God created me and put me here Why am I here - because God has a purpose for me here on earth Where do I go when I die - heaven, to be with God till the end of time, because He loves me and wants me there, despite all my sins Just a comparison; just something for you to think about. World View - the 4 questions that every religion in the world tries to answer.

      MadMatt_88 - 2011-05-05 13:19

      My problem is the illogical backwards thinking. Is it just a coincidence that the dark ages appeared about the same time the bloody church was burning books, burning people who dared to say the earth was not the centre of the universe, the earth is not flat, etc etc, and ended about the same time the church lost most of its power in the reformation. Primitive superstition wrapped up in the inevitable xian holier-than-thou self righteousness. Church and state need to be separated, and religion confined to the dustbin of history alongside all the other iron-age tribal primitive belief structures.

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 13:40

      @ Matt Your post is proof that you don't understand how the universe works. @Mad Matt Go back to school and learn your history properly. The 'Dark Ages' is a misnomer - historians prefer the term 'Middle Ages'. The reason why it was originally called the Dark Ages is because few artifacts from that period have survived to the modern day for us to examine. This time period was ushered in with the sacking of Rome by the Goths. Religion has nothing to do with it at all.

      MadMatt_88 - 2011-05-05 14:08

      Yeah, makes sense. My entire existence is justified by, and a direct result of a collection of overtranslated, random, adjusted, and edited 3000 yr old jewish mythology.

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 14:44

      Guys, the point is that Zuma is using religion to his own ends. He is deliberately being divisive and succeeding well.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 16:15

      @ Flamewulf - so then why don't you explain it to me hmm? If anyone posts to me, I'll take time to explain it. When I ask the same, I either get silence or remarks. Did I just read correctly, you're a Christian and an evolutionist? Please explain how the two fit together? It is easy (though timeous) to work out that the earth is 6000 years old giong on the Bible, so where do you fit that into the billions of years? Please don't say the Gap Theory or Day-Age theory... for the Gap Theory puts death before sin which is a heresy and Day-Age Theory doesn't make sense, both according to the Bible or to nature - if Day 3 is plants and Day 4 is sun, 24 hours difference is no problem but millions of years is. Interestingly... the intro to the 1959 100-year-anniversary release of Origin of Species even says it - Christianity and Evolution CANNOT be mixed

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 20:47

      @ Matt "Did I just read correctly, you're a Christian and an evolutionist? Please explain how the two fit together?" It's easy. I believe in God, who saved me through the gift of Jesus Christ. I accept the findings of science regarding evolution, just as I accept the findings of science regarding gravity, physics, astronomy, etc. Faith and science are quite distinct from one another. "It is easy (though timeous) to work out that the earth is 6000 years old giong on the Bible, so where do you fit that into the billions of years?" Lol. Please show me where in the Bible (which verse) that it explicitly states that the earth is 6000 years old. "Please don't say the Gap Theory or Day-Age theory... for the Gap Theory puts death before sin which is a heresy and Day-Age Theory doesn't make sense, both according to the Bible or to nature - if Day 3 is plants and Day 4 is sun, 24 hours difference is no problem but millions of years is." I don't attempt to "reconcile" science and Genesis, as I see the Genesis creation narrative as symbolic, not literal. So this is not a problem for me at all. "Interestingly... the intro to the 1959 100-year-anniversary release of Origin of Species even says it - Christianity and Evolution CANNOT be mixed" Link please.

      Matt - 2011-05-06 09:03

      @ Flamewulf - if you get hold of a copy of the 100-year-anniversary edition, it's there. Not an internet link. If you don't take the Bible literally, how do you understand e.g. "thou shalt not kill"? Is that just a suggestion? If there is a God, then HE owns this place and will give a manual. If you buy a radio, do you throw away the manual or do you read it and interpret it literally, as the creator of the radio tells you how exactly to use it? There is so much in the book that is literal advice of science (besides creation). Mate, let me just point a few things out. God and Evolutionism do NOT mix. - Bible: death came by sin (Adam). Evolution: death came BEFORE sin. - God is one of compassion, even in the OT you can see this. If God used evolution, he would be a cruel, merciless God. Evolution requires the death of weaker species for the stronger to survive. Is that a God you would worship? - If you reject Genesis as a fairytale; the NT refers to it 200x. Jesus refers to it many times. Are you calling Jesus a liar, or dumb, or misguided? If you believe Jesus is Lord, why do you doubt Him? It's up to you to believe, but make sure you know what you believe! BTW. Yes, there are 6 types of evolution. Micro-evolution (aka divergent-evolution in many textbooks) is true. Kind produces after its own kind. This does not explain where everything came from. Suggesting it does perverts symantics. Evolutionists assume that, with TIME, a kind will produce another kind. Impossible!

  • simcard1506 - 2011-05-05 07:33

    i urge the Dutch Reformed Church to take this matter to the equality court

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 07:45

      On what grounds?

      Tieneke - 2011-05-05 09:11

      OMFG! Why? Because the ANC put their own little characters in an age old fairytale? You have your fairytale with your choice of made characters and the ANC, VERY CLEVERLY, as most black people are very religious, have their fairytale with their characters. Enjoy it!

      Matt - 2011-05-05 09:49

      @ Tieneke - here's a fairy tale, maybe you know it? Once upon a time, there was nothing. Out of nothing came a dot (from where?). The dot was angry and started spinning, but spun too fast and exploded. The fragments formed planets and stars. Eventually it formed the earth. But the earth was hot, and took time to cool down. When it did, it rained for a long time. Rain and rock created primordial soup. The soup magically came alive and here we are today. Add the phrase "billions of years" into every sentence and we have the religious conviction of atheists and humanists. Yes, they believe they came from a rock - assuming they actually understand the theory they believe in. Gives a whole new meaning to the mane "Rocky". "and they all lived miserably ever after"

      Tieneke - 2011-05-05 12:02

      @Matt, I'm not miserable! I'm a much better person now than when I was a believer. To the contrary I know plenty of believers that are miserable every day! Don't assume, been there, done that. I don't believe period, don't need a fairytale to make me happy, o sorry I do enjoy Beauty and the Beast

      Matt - 2011-05-05 13:23

      @ Tieneke - I've been there, done that too. I was raised an Atheist, I used to mock Christians for enjoyment. My whole family in Europe are Atheists. I was so miserable, bitter, lonely. Then I saw the light and became a Christian and the change is overwhelming... So as a former atheist; yes, it's great at the time to do naughty things, to gain where others may lose out, and write off bad actions as life experience; just wait till things don't go so well. Then you feel it. When those around you abandon you or let you down, you're all alone. And as there's no God, who cares what happens to you? If you killed yourself, you'd be doing the world a favour because it's overpopulated. Maybe you don't experience this and I really hope you never have to, but this goes through the minds of so many people. In contrast, I have also been in the situation where I lost my friends and family, my work, my possessions and I was a Christian - had I been Atheist, I wouldn't be here. Only my steadfast faith in God got me right; 2 years later, the possessions are replaced and more, the family is back, I have new friends - I was in a no-way-out situation and yet God got me out, and HOW!

      Matt - 2011-05-05 13:28

      @ Tieneke. Fairytales... here's another one to read to the kids at night :-) Story: Billions of years ago, living organisms "emerged" from the primordial soup. Bacteria over millions of years evolved into sealife. Over millions of years, fish evolved into amphibians. Over millions of years, amphibians evolved into reptiles. Over millions of years, reptils evolved into mammals. Over millions of years, mammals - particularly apes - evolved into humans. Reprise: Once upon a time, a princess kissed a frog and it turned into a prince. (over millions of years.... LOL)

      BurnInEffigy - 2011-05-05 13:51

      Tieneke my dear, turn off your computer. Go home. Sit down. Close your eyes and think about how happy YOU think you are. Then think about how happy I think you are... Child... dont play with fire... wouldnt want to see such a pretty face get... well... "burnt".

  • daaivark - 2011-05-05 07:42

    Politics is the playing ground of lunatics. Anyone giving any credence to any of this posturing needs help.

      Creeky - 2011-05-05 08:13

      What about the ACDP ?????? Are they POLITICAL CHRISTIANS??? Or Christians with a Political VIEW?

  • ebdg3000 - 2011-05-05 07:42

    Christians are a very forgiving bunch. Imagine if some mulah went on about Islam and Allah like this - how long do you think he'll last?

      Vaal Donkie - 2011-05-05 08:47

      But I thought Christians were bloodthirsty barbarians...?

      MadMatt_88 - 2011-05-05 11:12

      Not the Xians, only their god.

      Johan - 2011-05-05 13:25

      This is a very recent development due to the influence of secularism and the church's loss of power, mere generations ago the fire would have been lit and the inquisition would have been knocking.

      Vaal Donkie - 2011-05-06 11:50

      Johan is clinging to the Monty Python version of the Inquisition.

  • 50something - 2011-05-05 07:43

    I would like to know what this pastor (why is he not named and from which church is he)base his enlightning observation on. He was only sucking up to Zuma, maybe a hopefull to get a political favour. I agree, using religion to gain political ground is the lowest form of politics. I do not know why churches like Rhema is sucking up to the ANC in any case (Not related to this article)

  • 63Starlight - 2011-05-05 07:44

    Keep religion out of politics. Ignorance is bliss. Obviously this is the 1000 years of the antichrist. The devil is indeed at play. This is merely an attempt to get a reaction. 1 minute we are being told that only ANC card carrying members will get into heaven and now we're being told that the Holy Trinity is here...... and lead us not into temptation.

  • mufasa - 2011-05-05 07:52

    hahahaha omg people still believe in Jesus? he is a myth like Zeus, Apollo, and the rest... just shows that Zuma and the church believes in dead zombies... crazy.

      GLY - 2011-05-05 08:26

      Mufasa. I feel sorry for you. Do you really believe what you said or are you just trying to stir things up?

      Tieneke - 2011-05-05 09:16

      No @gly, he is not stirring. He, as I, are not one moment prepared to believe in fairytales. Make peace with it, I don't condemn you to eating chocolates and braaivleis for ever after, so don't condemn me to your so-called hell. Respect my believes and I will respect yours. BTW I was raised Christian, with all the trimmings.......

      Pete OJ - 2011-05-05 09:28

      Mufasa Even a fool, if he keeps his mouth shut, might for some time look like a wise man. There is more historical, both secular and biblical proof of Jesus' existance than that of Julius Ceasar! AND you don't think he is a myth. You can either believe or not believe what Jesus said, your choise, but to say he did not exist, indicates a lazy mind!

      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 11:54


      MadMatt_88 - 2011-05-05 13:21

      Anyone who doesnt believe the same as the xians is declared a troll! ha ha ha, bunch of xian trolls. You do not have the monopoly on beliefs.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 13:30

      But Tieneke, you do believe in fairytales? Belief in no God means the only plausible explanation for your existence and persence upon earth is evolution/big bang, and that is the biggest fairytale of them all? 152 years since Darwin published The Origin of Species and still not one jot of proof that evolution/big-bang is even vaguely possible?

      Johan - 2011-05-05 15:15

      Seriously matt, have you even attempted to investigate the theory of evolution, what it entails, how it works and the evidence that supports it? You live in a country with a wealth of evidence, fossils, records and finds that show the incredible evolutionary history of our own species, how can you with a start face claim that there is no evidence? Have you had you DNA sequenced to investigate the origins of your own bloodline, have to take the time to observe and consider the effects of evolution on every single form of life you have ever seen? Have you considered the implications of redshift, the work of hubble, Hawking, Stenger, Einstain and others and the incredible evidence in the nightsky not only of the formation of all we see but its origins in what we refer to as the big bang? Have you read the recent work on quantum physics investigating the origin of matter? Seemingly not. In any event, your argument is a poor non-sequitur, non-belief in your god is no more earthshattering than your non-belief in Zeus, and to claim that either necessitates rejection of actual science is a misleading and impoverished fallacy.

      Johan - 2011-05-05 15:15


      Matt - 2011-05-06 09:18

      @ Johan. Evidence? Like the bones that "prove" the cradle of mankind that were proven to be just a monkey's decades ago? BTW to my knowledge Einstein believed in God's creation :-) Or DNA that has still not been fully unravelled? By the way, here's something for you. Each little part of DNA is a nucleotide. Often it's said we are 99.2% similar to an ape. "inmiddels" closer to 90%. But 99.2%, let me give you a chance. 0.8% difference is 44.8 million nucleotides. Scientists show that changing just 2 is fatal to life. So, for man to evolve from ape, the ape must have died 22.4 million times to become man! DUH! Oh, and FYI, a panado is more similar to us in DNA, did we evolve from tablets? Is Bayer the creator of mankind? Sir, your attitude is "I'm smart, you're dumb". Does anyone else interpret the same thing? I do know evolution, I just don't hide behind long words. Take away the Latin, take away "billions of years" and then look at your theory. Please, just humour me. Then tell me this is science. Evidence... ha! Research Eernst Haeckel, look at his trial for evidence fraud in 1874, look at the outcome, then see how many documentaries STILL used his LIE as EVIDENCE. Look at the lengths evolutionists have gone to to create "evidence". You use circular reasoning, dating methods that are based on both assumption and flaws (live skin dated 24,000 years old?) and sheer BELIEF, then call those who don't agree idiots. You clever boy!

  • mfumbesi - 2011-05-05 07:54

    The irony is big with this one. I suppose the NG Kerk is best place to comment on this as they also supported apartheid (they gave the NATS religious support), I hope they learned from their past and are trying to caution their fellow brethren (from falling into the same pit that they once were in).

  • vtowntekkie - 2011-05-05 07:54

    About time church!

  • Macnab - 2011-05-05 07:55

    Whoever you are, science is proving daily the existance of a Mastermind behind creation and the existance of life. His Word states clearly that what you sow you will surely reap. No man mocks the true God and gets away with it. Watch and see what the end of these 'mockers'will be. anc the sun is busy setting for you.

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 09:10

      "science is proving daily the existance of a Mastermind behind creation" - care to back up this statement?

      Tieneke - 2011-05-05 09:20

      What science? I f you refer to this website, you will see they make statements, its not the people that work with science that makes these statements, just some more bull crap to convince you the fairytale is "real".

      Matt - 2011-05-05 10:19

      @ Tieneke. In contrast to "clever" evolutionists, who use "evidence" that was proven to be wrong, impossible or just plain lies as long as 150 years ago. Question to those "enlightened ones". How do you know "million of years old" is true? You tell the dates of the fossil by the layer of rock it was. Then you tell the age of the layer of rock by the index fossil that was found in it. Please tell me how this circular reasoning is science?! Or, explain the scientific possibility of the Big Bang Theory, taking into consideration the scientific Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum. Or, explain how, despite the use of the Inverse Square Law showing that life couldn't exist on Earth more than 25,000 years ago, magically "it did"? Or, perhaps define which evolution you actually believe in, seeing how there are 6 types. The only observed meaning is micro-evolution, meaning different kinds within kinds. A Labrador and a Retriever can have a puppy that's mixed. It's still a dog. That doesn't prove it came from a banana. Micro-evolution, aka Divergent Evolution, is observed. However, this does not PROVE cosmic, chemical, stellar, organic or macro evolution. And believers of evolution do this all the time - they point to the fact that 2 of the same kind can produce offspring with a genetic difference, then assume this magically proves we came from a rock and that 20 billion years ago "nothing exploded".

      Matt - 2011-05-05 10:21

      When a star dies, it is called a Nova. When a whole bunch die, it's called a Supernova. There have only been some 300 supernovae observed (i.e. provable). It has also been observed that a Supernova occurs every 20-30 years. If the universe is billions of years old, where are all the other Supernovae? Certainly more than 300 current ones, which would support the Biblical account of creation?

      Matt - 2011-05-05 10:23

      Going by the account of creation, everything happened quickly. Big Bang/evolution teaches that it took some 700-million years for a hot earth to cool down. As lava hardens to granite, you can see little circles in the rock - called polonium rings. This is scientific proof that the earth could never have taken long to cool down, because these rings only occur when lava rapidly cools down.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 10:26

      Bible teaches of Noah's flood, some 4450 years ago. If the Biblical account is wrong: - Why is the oldest desert in the world (Sahara) maximum 4300 years old? Why is the world not one big desert? - Why is the oldest known living tree 4200-4300 years old, Why is there no older tree? - Why is the world's largest reef, Great Barrier Reef, proven after 20 years of study to be no older than 4400 years old? Why is there no larger reef? Do feel free to give scientific proof to your answers, lest anyone dares believe in Biblical "fairytales".

      Realist - 2011-05-05 10:28

      @tieneke Dude, you have seriously got too look up teh history on Science... Science was initailly started to prove the existence of God, after arrogance and self pride consumed the @ssholes that were doing it, they decided to disprove the existence of God...go look it up...

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 10:50

      @Matt - you really need to stop reading the creationist websites - they are somewhat less than completely honest in representing scietific theories.

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 10:53

      "When a star dies, it is called a Nova. When a whole bunch die, it's called a Supernova" - facepalm

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 10:54

      "A Labrador and a Retriever can have a puppy that's mixed. It's still a dog" - what do you expect them to give birth to?

      Matt - 2011-05-05 11:03

      Question to the scoffers. With the scientific advances of the past few hundred years, many scientists were believers of Creation by God. In fact, many even used the Creation to expand the knowledge of the Creation. Now, please tell us what scientifically provable advances have been made as a result of the humanistis/atheistic world view of evolution. Scary actually how many advances were mentioned in the Bible. Job 35:25 speaks of communication via electricity (before you reply, think how you use electricity and electromagnetic waves to do so). Or how "hygiene" was only discovered in 1849 by Ignaz Semmelweiss, then read Leviticus on hygiene rules. Or how Atheists laughed at Bible-believers at the thought of underwater hot springs, until someone discovered one in 1974...

      Matt - 2011-05-05 12:08

      @ mbossenger - "A Labrador and a Retriever can have a puppy that's mixed. It's still a dog" - what do you expect them to give birth to?" Well apparently, given enough time, quite possibly a sunflower. If creation sites (which I haven't been on in ages) are so false, how about proving your theory true? Give answers! If I say the moon were made of green cheese, the least I could do is show a sample.

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 12:16

      Job 35:25 doesn't exist...

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 12:28

      Dogs are never going to give birth to anything other than dogs - maybe you should educate yourself as to what the actual theory of evolution says, instead of your pathetic straw man version. Again - nothing in science is "proven" - you appear to have several fundamental minunderstandings of specifically the theory of evolution and the scientific process in general.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 13:44

      @ mbossenger - you are correct, I was wrong. I meant Job 36:25 "Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?" Good to know we now agree that evolution is not scientifically proven :-) "Dogs are never going to give birth to anything other than dogs - maybe you should educate yourself as to what the actual theory of evolution says, instead of your pathetic straw man version. " Strawman! I was waiting for someone to say that. Doesn't end the debate. So are you denying that 1) a kind, no matter what span of time, can produce a different kind; and 2) evolution is even linked to scientific proof? BTW, if you don't believe that e.g. a dog wasn't produced by a non-dog over a long period of time, then you have the burden of proof to explain where all the kinds came from. Which, I'm guessing, is the primordial soup. I should write to Koo and ask if they sell it in cans. "Nothing in science is proven". Hmm, so all the scientists in labs for the past centuries, conducting experiments and establishing norms that are required for understanding just wasting their time, twiddling their thumbs? And the various scientific laws in place? Do they even exist?

      mbossenger - 2011-05-05 17:44

      I'm going to ask you to define "kind" - I'm yet to come across any creationist who can define this term adequately. You seem to be referring to speciation, which has been observed several times. Scientists gather evidence, proof is for maths. Scientific laws are mathematical expressions of a particular aspect of a theory, such as Newton's Laws.

      Matt - 2011-05-06 09:28

      @ mbossenger. A kind is a kind. A dog produces another dog; but a dog is a canine (kind). So a dog, a wolf, a coyote, they all have a common ancestor - which was a dog/canine. All of this still falls within the same kind. This all falls within micro-evolution (or, seeing how you reject this term exists, textbooks also call it divergent evolution). This, nobody can dispute. Now please explain how all KINDs are related. At what stage did a fish become an amphibian? How, scientifically, did it grow legs and walk onto land? Why haven't you found a fossil of a fish that was growing legs? And why is it, you say a fossil was extinct for 350 million years, then you find a live one and say it's just been hiding for 350-million years? "Kind" in the Bible - Hebrew "Miyn" can mean a species, but has been used on a family or genus level. So birds will bring forth birds, but didn't exclude partitioning of the gene pool like speciation. Still, how do you explain such a kind producing a complete different kind?

      mbossenger - 2011-05-06 10:51

      Speciation - macroevolution to you - see this link: What "kind" is a dolphin? Fish growing legs - see this link:

      mbossenger - 2011-05-06 10:53

      "Big Bang/evolution teaches that it took some 700-million years for a hot earth to cool down" - that's geology, neither "big bang" nor "evolution"

      mbossenger - 2011-05-06 10:54

      "Or, explain the scientific possibility of the Big Bang Theory, taking into consideration the scientific Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum. Or, explain how, despite the use of the Inverse Square Law showing that life couldn't exist on Earth more than 25,000 years ago" - I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, could you please elaborate?

      mbossenger - 2011-05-06 10:56

      "Why is the oldest desert in the world (Sahara) maximum 4300 years old? Why is the world not one big desert? - Why is the oldest known living tree 4200-4300 years old, Why is there no older tree? - Why is the world's largest reef, Great Barrier Reef, proven after 20 years of study to be no older than 4400 years old? Why is there no larger reef?" - what do any of these prove? The Sahara desert, trees oand the Great Barrier Reef is not as old as the earth, or are you claiming otherwise?

      FreeHeart - 2011-05-06 11:03

      @Matt - Just to make you think and to prove how ignorant you are to the facts, not to refer to your belief in God, which is awesome. I just don't think you really investigate very thoroughly before making a statement. Nova - A STAR that suddenly increases its light output tremendously and then fades away to its former obscurity in a few months or years Supernova - The explosion of A STAR in which the star may reach a maximum intrinsic luminosity one billion times that of the sun If you don't believe me:

      Matt - 2011-05-06 13:12

      @mbossenger. OK. So the start of Big Bang was a dot (or nebula, call it what you like). Where did the dot come from? "in the beginning. dirt..." It spun, exploded and expanded (as the dot is the same as a period, wow!). If the dot spun clockwise, then everything breaking off will spin clockwise too until encountering resistance. Question, why are there planets and moons spinning the other way? (with no sign of a knock so vicious that it spins the other way) Also, matter would be evenly distributed and symmetrical. We can agree the universe is NOT symmetrical. Also, e.g. the sun is in some cases chemically the opposite to planets. Conservation of Angular Momentum... The inverse square law. The moon is moving away from the earth. Observed. Means it used to be closer. The moon effects our magetism. Observed. Thus if you go back in time, the effect would be to the power of the difference. So if the loss over a year is 3, a year ago the effect would be 3x3=9. Basically, 25,000 yeas ago the earth would've been so hot due to the magnetic rays heating it up, life could not exist. Also, the moon and the earth would be touching a billion years ago... Inverse square law.

      mbossenger - 2011-05-06 13:32

      @mbossenger. "So the start of Big Bang was a dot. It spun, exploded and expanded (as the dot is the same as a period, wow!)" The big bang was not an explosion, is was an expansion of space-time. You are thinking of it as a literal expolosion, which is incorrect. "If the dot spun clockwise, then everything breaking off will spin clockwise too until encountering resistance" The "dot" didn't spin - you are again thinking in terms of a literal explosion. Any besides, try this experiment - hold the stress ball on your desk and spin it clockwise. Now spin it counterclockwise - as if by magic it spins both ways. Energy, m'boy - that's the key. "Also, matter would be evenly distributed and symmetrical. We can agree the universe is NOT symmetrical." So? Asymmetry due to gravity. No big deal. The inverse square law. The moon is moving away from the earth. Observed. Means it used to be closer. The moon effects our magetism. Observed. Thus if you go back in time, the effect would be to the power of the difference. So if the loss over a year is 3, a year ago the effect would be 3x3=9. Basically, 25,000 yeas ago the earth would've been so hot due to the magnetic rays heating it up, life could not exist. Also, the moon and the earth would be touching a billion years ago... " Not sure where to shart with this mishmash of wrongness. try this link for an explanation -

      Matt - 2011-05-06 14:21

      @mbossenger. The Big Bang as I described it came from a science textbook. Go phone the schools to complain. (actual wording was a "dot, no bigger than a period on this page") Nebula, expansion of time, infintesimal region, it still started with a dot. Unless the curriculums around the world are lying to us... Anyway, I have to log off for a bit. If we don't argue further, enjoy the weekend. Enjoy responsibly, don't go ape now ;-)

  • Jannie - 2011-05-05 07:57

    Having read the paper's report and all the comments, I could not trace any name of the so-called pastor. The only identification mentioned was that he was "a pastor from Gauteng". What is the possibility that he is an actor appointed by Zuma with the specific instruction on what to say at the meeting? I bet even his transport costs comes out of the pockets of taxpayers.

      Spoedvark - 2011-05-05 14:47

      Actor or no, Jannie, he is getting exactly the reaction he wanted.

  • Agent - 2011-05-05 08:01

    Children of the DEVIL rather my thoughts.

      Tieneke - 2011-05-05 09:23

      Thought you guys believe that their is only one creator? Or does the devil also have the power to create? So your God create all that is good and the devil create all that is bad? Nice wish I had somebody to blame when one of my cakes flop.........

  • God Almighty - 2011-05-05 08:01're dead!

      Tieneke - 2011-05-05 09:24

      I think NOT! He will die when he dies, not one moment earlier.....

      MadMatt_88 - 2011-05-05 14:20

      @Tienkie.. I really like your rational thought. An example to those still trapped in the herd mentality.

      Matt - 2011-05-06 14:23

      I'm sure you heard this one... God is dead - Nietzsche. Nietzsche is dead - God

  • michaelp1 - 2011-05-05 08:02

    @zaatheist (and others) - here we again!! - someone who clearly does NOT know what he is talking about making comments. Some of you guys are like Malema and Vavi and prove the old adage time and time again. you know..the one that goes "It's better to keep your mouth shut and let people THINK you are a fool than to open it and prove you ARE one." God gives us free choice - Basic Christianity. Stop blaming Christianity for what people do in the name of Christianity (and other religions). Jesus was not a communist. Communists hold the State as their saviour. Basic Communism!!

  • Perfume - 2011-05-05 08:03

    . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . ,.-‘”. . . . . . . . . .``~., . . . . . . . .. . . . . .,.-”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .“-., . . . . .. . . . . . ..,/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ”:, . . . . . . . .. .,?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\, . . . . . . . . . /. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,} . . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`^`.} . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:”. . . ./ . . . . . . .?. . . __. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :`. . . ./ . . . . . . . /__.(. . .“~-,_. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`. . . .. ./ . . . . . . /(_. . ”~,_. . . ..“~,_. . . . . . . . . .,:`. . . . _/ . . . .. .{.._$;_. . .”=,_. . . .“-,_. . . ,.-~-,}, .~”; /. .. .} . . .. . .((. . .*~_. . . .”=-._. . .“;,,./`. . /” . . . ./. .. ../ . . . .. . .\`~,. . ..“~.,. . . . . . . . . ..`. . .}. . . . . . ../ . . . . . .(. ..`=-,,. . . .`. . . . . . . . . . . ..(. . . ;_,,-” . . . . . ../.`~,. . ..`-.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\. . /\ . . . . . . \`~.*-,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..|,./.....\,__ ,,_. . . . . }.>-._\. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|. . . . . . ..`=~-, . .. `=~-,_\_. . . `\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\ . . . . . . . . . .`=~-,,.\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . `:,, . . . . . . . . . . . . . `\. . . . . . ..__ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .`=-,. . . . . . . . . .,%`>--==`` . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _\. . . . . ._,-%. . . ..`\

      Vaal Donkie - 2011-05-05 08:47


      flamewulf - 2011-05-05 11:17


      bakkebul - 2011-05-05 11:34

      Thanks Perfume, I couldn’t have said it better myself. PS. Sorry about Saturday - I hope you guys bounce back.

      Perfume - 2011-05-05 11:42

      Hey bakkebul, my weekend was spoiled after our loss, I hope we bounce back as well :)

      BurnInEffigy - 2011-05-05 12:44


      FreeHeart - 2011-05-06 11:05

      A picture is worth a 1000 words. Brilliant!

  • Vicker - 2011-05-05 08:05

    And great will this "pastor's" surprise be when he has to answer to the real God at the pearly gates one day - wish I will be able to see his expression when he is denied entry...(goes for all the ANC funny-farm wombats too...)

      FreeHeart - 2011-05-06 11:06

      Exactly. And I would also like to add, why do people expect Zuma to act against this pastor? Does Zuma actually proclaim to be a Christian?

      Matt - 2011-05-06 16:30

      @ FreeHeart - Zuma does, and Zuma sure isn't

  • Daniel du Plessis - 2011-05-05 08:09

    Well Im not sure if this is any different from the NG Kerk dominees preaching the racism of the past as the "word of God". Anyway this pastor is a complete moron, because if Jesus was a communist he would have been an atheist. He may have been a socialist, but definately not a communist.

      DW - 2011-05-05 08:54

      The NG Kerk was wrong. They have admitted it. They, too, used God's word to justify a lie. Those who did so will be held accountable one day when they stand before him. Jesus was not political in any way. He refused to get pulled into any discussions on the politics of the day. You can try to link some of his teachings to whatever religious or philosophical viewpoint that you have, but you are merely looking at similarities. Jesus' kingdom is not of this earth. He is interested in your eternal life, not your earthly life except where that affects your eternal life.

      Tieneke - 2011-05-05 09:28

      What else the NG Kerk taught us was lies.......? Some many people us the church to spread lies.......To me it looks like it works so well cause it all IS a lie....

      Realist - 2011-05-05 10:32

      @tieneke So... What catastrophic event made you stop believing? That point in your life, would always remain the sublime moment that you were overtaken by complete stupidity...

      BurnInEffigy - 2011-05-05 12:46

      People please, the DRC was a tool used by the Apartheid Government in yesteryear. Today VERY different story. GO visit one. It'll change your view, if not your life.

  • Daniel du Plessis - 2011-05-05 08:10

    In fact I think this Pastor needs to explain to his congregation why he says Jesus is an atheist

      Tieneke - 2011-05-05 09:30

      Jesus denied his Jewish upbringing......those days he was considered to be walking the wrong path....Just as today if you not with Christians you are from the devil.

      michaelp1 - 2011-05-05 10:07

      @Tieneke - Where did you get that crap? "Jesus denied his Jewish upbringing". Please quote reference.

      Matt - 2011-05-05 10:28

      @ Tieneke - when did Jesus do that? Verse numbers please. Last I read, He FULFILLED Jewish law. Oh, the teachers of the time had their issues, but their convictions didn't mean Jesus denied his Jewish upbringing.

      BurnInEffigy - 2011-05-05 12:49

      Tienkie gaan wees n sarie-suur-gat iewers anders! Niemand worry oor jou teologiese sieninge nie. As jy nie verstaan wat gebeur het met die oorgang na Christenskap nie moet jy eerder gaan opswot en weer probeer. Fucksakes mense kan kak praat. En PS NERENS staan daar geskrywe "personn/groep etc" is from the devil. Fokken Nerens. Net sonde is van hom af.. geen mens. Nog nooit nie.

      BurnInEffigy - 2011-05-05 13:52

      Ek begin haar jammer kry...

  • dollypeg - 2011-05-05 08:15

    If they were talking about Islam and The prophet, there would be a holy war declared. I find this very offensive