Circumcision deaths outrage Zuma

2013-05-21 12:31

Johannesburg - President Jacob Zuma on Tuesday expressed shock and outrage at the deaths of 27 boys who attended initiation schools in Mpumalanga.

"The whole country is outraged at this massive and unnecessary loss of young life at the hands of those who are supposed to nurture and protect them," Zuma said in a statement.

Colonel Leonard Hlathi said on Monday police were investigating 26 murder cases and one inquest. No arrests had been made and police expected the results of the post mortems soon.

Zuma called for swift justice for the victims' families, and for those responsible for the deaths.

The president conveyed his condolences to affected families and said government intended keeping initiates safe in future.

"It cannot be acceptable that every time young men reach this crucial time in their development, their lives are culled in the most painful of ways, in the care of circumcision schools," Zuma said.


Initiation ceremonies are common in South Africa, where youths partake in various activities as a rite of passage into adulthood, usually over the course of three weeks. Some 30 000 youths signed up for initiation this year.

In addition to being circumcised, the boys and young men are put through a series of survival tests which sometimes includes exposure to South Africa's winter with very little clothing. Their faces are painted with red clay and they are given herbal concoctions to drink.

Former president Nelson Mandela described the experience in his autobiography as "a kind of spiritual preparation for the trials of manhood".

Hlathi said on Friday all the deaths occurred at government-registered initiation sites where medical practitioners were usually present.

  • Richard Clemitson - 2013-05-21 12:39

    er then do something about it you are the president aren't you !!!!!

      Flown Riva - 2013-05-21 13:03

      A commission of inquiry should sort things out!

      Sean Bagley - 2013-05-21 13:04

      And this is circumcision without anesthetia?Barbaric and painful practices of the highest order.

      Eterni80 - 2013-05-21 13:07

      JZ really knows how to pick his battles...

      Don Tandy - 2013-05-21 13:13

      er Richard - he claims to be the president, but in reality he is a useless ................

      Larry - 2013-05-21 13:14

      Save some of your outrage for next year Zuma, and the years after that, because you will do nothing about it.

      LĂ©viter Au-dessus des Montagnes-Bleues - 2013-05-21 13:21

      Almost as outrageous as the deceit around Nkandla, but our one and only CALIGULA of NKANDLA will never move out from that gross error or refund the nations tax payers. The deaths/murders of intiates and farmer citizens pales into insignificance compared to the schaiky Zuptagate dynasty's excesses. AMANDLA 'mshini'mshini'mshini'yam............. bayete any hyena & add LOTS OF NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FAILED ZUMA ADMINISTRATION - many ministerial Republican Bananas lined up in rows.

      Alan Gernet - 2013-05-21 13:42

      OMG - We have a statement from the President!!!!!!! *Shock Faint*

      Alan Gernet - 2013-05-21 13:49

      does that mean that Guptagate is now done and dusted, and that the President is back in the country, innocent of any wrongdoing, and ready to take on the next 'challenge' in our march to democracy?

      Rudolph Barbarian - 2013-05-21 15:22

      The whole country outraged? I'm not. If you drop your spear for a second you will realise ALL your 'statements' zoomer are worthless, as you are not being taken seriaasly anymore. Not At all

  • Cathy De Jongh - 2013-05-21 12:40

    And the BOX speaks again

      Sean Bagley - 2013-05-21 13:08

      Yeah mieliepap Zuma is outraged at "the deaths of 27 boys...attending initiation schools in Mpumalanga"...when 50 000 other people gets brutally raped and murdered yearly since the socalled "freedom fighters" took over South Africa.Makes you wonder what the hell is wrong with these people in power?

      Paige Turner - 2013-05-21 15:56

      Ag, ja, easy come, easy go. The people of SA are expendable so why should Zuma worry about a handful or initiates --- more than 27 people are murdered a day in SA.

      Philip Johnson - 2013-05-21 17:24

      Phony about the same (or more) at all the farm murders. Circumcision this way is a choice...a stupid one, but one that helps to clean out the gene pool.

      Jimmy Mthombeni - 2013-05-21 20:10

      Phillip and Paige, you are typical apartheid remnant whose major characteristic is complete absence of conscience. Remember it is as a result of that lack of conscience that you mysteriously found yourself born here. It is inconceivable that a human being would refer to the death of fellow human beings as "to clean out the gene pool"!!! You are an elementary example of a conception that was never supposed to be, and you are also reflective of a gigantic challenge faced by the progressive forces of change to rid this country of the garbage of the past that naturally belongs to the rubbish bin of history. I don't care about the many trolling thumbs down I anticipate as this site is dominated by your schizophrenic denialist type who share your myopic convictions. Shame on you all. News 24 do what you do best and delete this post!!!

      Philip Johnson - 2013-05-22 03:20

      @Jimmy...there you go again blaming apartheid. Why don't you try applying your mind to uplifting your people to stop behaving like cavemen? You seem fairly well educated.

  • Oki Vosloo - 2013-05-21 12:42

    I am sorry for all the young men and their families. It is strange however that the president can comment on p%nis issues and not on other serious issues, re. waterkloof afb

      Kortbroek Du Plessis - 2013-05-21 13:28

      Well you know there are only two things that interest our beloved "spear" leader, the reproductive organ and the inflow of money. The rest can go to hell.

      Alan Gernet - 2013-05-21 14:06

      still - the President is quite vocal about this issue, where we might have expected him to be Circumspect....

      Penelope Dawn Mills - 2013-05-22 14:23

      Ja he seems obsessed with Pe*%s issues! Either his own or other peoples! LMAO!

  • Thanduxolo Galada - 2013-05-21 12:43

    This is a gross misrepresentation. First off Nelson Mandela is Xhosa therefore you inferring red clay and concoctions is a blatant lie! Xhosa does not do that. You must be aware that rite of initiation does not take the same form among the ethnic tribes. Investigative journalism would have probed deeper to get insight e.g. were these legitimate schools, who performed the circumcision aspect and are they registered with CONTRALESA? I underwent my rite of passage in 2006 in Mthatha. I'm alive and very healthy...there are reasons for that!

      Ruth Majozi - 2013-05-21 13:01

      But dis is not in Xhosa land d concern is d 1 for Mp! Mandela knows abt d tradition it doesn't have to b exactly d same in all states!

      Thanduxolo Galada - 2013-05-21 13:51

      @Ruth: you'd agree that the article infers what is not fact. @Maka: chief, I feel you on that one. All I'm saying is whether iingcibi are licensed and therefore experienced to perform the circumcision aspect. I have no illusions about Patekile or the SAFA chief - batya imali.

      Paige Turner - 2013-05-21 16:02

      Thanduxolo Galada, you do know, of course, that these rituals are shrouded in secret and, reportedly, women are not permitted to be involved if Candith Mashedo-Dlamini is to be believed (for the uninitiated, she's health MEC of Mpumalanga). And if you know so much about the topic, how about doing an expose and enlightening the rest of South Africa, both men and women.

      Philip Johnson - 2013-05-21 17:25

      We don't care.

  • Hayley Fredericks - 2013-05-21 12:44

    Shame, Zoooms gets "concerned" a lot. Pity he doesn't do anything about these "concerning" things. Bless him.

      Don Tandy - 2013-05-21 13:14

      Bless him???????........F**k him.

      Cathy De Jongh - 2013-05-21 13:21

      Oh good grief, no thank you

      Edgar Mooi - 2013-05-21 14:18

      Lets leave zuma ,lets come with ideas ,you guys are wasting ur time and energy for nothing ,,criticise zuma ....for what??? We need ideas what can be done to avoid these ...... We want our kids to go and be circumcised not to die ,how can we make sure is safely done but u guys are talking of zuma ,zuma ,,,,he have live his life close to 80 years now....

  • Arc Con - 2013-05-21 12:45

    Election year is around the corner and suddenly JZ is "angry" and "upset" and "outradged" at all kinds of things all of a sudden that has been going on forever, but he chose to ignore them untill now. This is all just lip service from an uncaring a-hole whoring after votes.

  • DerekMain - 2013-05-21 12:46

    Yes - we agree with that. Now what do you have to say about Guptagate? Phansi cANCer, phansi!!!

      Pieter Ver - 2013-05-21 13:07

      He was just as angry about the Gupta's, remember? And they were sorted out well enough ... according to his side-kick Mantashe.

      DerekMain - 2013-05-21 13:32

      That's what Mantashe or one of the other lackeys told us. I'd like to hear it from the idiot's mouth.

      Goodwill Mtshayise - 2013-05-21 13:51

      Go to hell. U a mixing things unnecessary here.

  • SikRaletive - 2013-05-21 12:51

    Our president is concerned only when the matter is SEXUAL...

      Eterni80 - 2013-05-21 13:11

      that's how you get a 'rise' out of him..

      Alan Gernet - 2013-05-21 13:43

      dont be hard on him Gavin

      jungleboy - 2013-05-21 23:23

      There is nothing sexual about the medieval practice of male torture. It is without doubt the worst form of male mutilation.

  • Mnr Willemse - 2013-05-21 12:53

    But Mr Zuma, this is nothing new. It has been going on for centuries already just now its documented and exposed, whereas in 1652 it was normal for them to die, why the anger and outrage now? You either continue living in the pre 1652 mindset or you adapt and realise and accept that this is barbaric and that Tokoloshes don't exist. No wonder the western cape shines out like a bright line to deepest darkest Africa cause coloured people are the majority and add on whites, we have an overwhelmingly western economy and mindset.

  • G.I Jane - 2013-05-21 12:57

    It is because you are the president that these things happen.You have no value for life.Your outrage is a lie.Stop lyiung

  • MastersVoice - 2013-05-21 12:58

    No word on the health MEC's utterances about her not being able to intervene because she's a woman? Is Zuma not outraged at that?

      Amanda Matthews - 2013-05-21 19:12

      The meenister of health cannot comment because it is in the culcha and no woman can overstep her mark in the culcha.

  • Democrazy - 2013-05-21 13:00

    Terribil both things

  • Teboho Lenkoane - 2013-05-21 13:00

    Mr Zuma what about th Guptas??? Nkandla republic SA is going dwn,

  • Johann Enslin - 2013-05-21 13:03

    all the deaths occurred at government-registered initiation sites where medical practitioners were usually present. Why nationalization won't work.

  • musa.kamashobane - 2013-05-21 13:06

    Really? Is the President outraged? Then he must tell his provincial premier Mabuza that these murders must stop and close these jungle circumcisions

  • John Corner - 2013-05-21 13:08

    kids died and you people writing rubbish here.

      JMaree - 2013-05-22 14:05

      Because of the anc's actions, kids die ever day, why don't you write about?

  • HelloParys FS - 2013-05-21 13:08

    I thought he wanted to promote these practices for the africanisation of SA??

  • Andrea Thompson - 2013-05-21 13:10

    I was one of those people who believed that Jacob Zuma would be an effective president. He was down to earth, knew and understood the core issues and was a proud South African. I though he would be a very good president. I am dissapointed in him and feel lied to and manipulated. He should appreciate the importance of cultural practices and respect it and ensure that it is carried out and practiced as safely as possible. He should put all efforts into being a respectable president instead of constantly being seduced by corruption. Young men die year after year, illegal practices have been highlighted and exposed. He should be beyond talking about it and graduate to actually doing something about it.

      Cassandra - 2013-05-21 13:21

      Grow up!

      MastersVoice - 2013-05-21 13:24

      Cassandra - glass houses...

  • Alrich Shaun Thomas - 2013-05-21 13:10

    uhm... are we not a "civilised" nation? Should things like this not be done by qualified trained individuals and not some uncle or who ever older person(s) within the community... Also Mr President... Don't bother being outraged now... You practice these same silly rituals and ceremonies, thus you yourself is not putting hope or faith in our Health sector...

  • Richard Scully - 2013-05-21 13:10

    Oh really, aren't you supposed to act then?

  • G.I Jane - 2013-05-21 13:11

    Zuma you are always shocked.Take a live wire in your hand and tell us then you were shocked.Stop pretending.

  • Puleng Mabuya - 2013-05-21 13:12

    @G.I jane pls don't disrespect my culture.its not culture that is killing those children.they died bcoz ppl who are incompetent are running those schools they close those schools and arrest them.ungasijwayeli

      MastersVoice - 2013-05-21 13:20

      I cannot agree Puleng. The cultural practise is intrinsically unsafe, and has always lead to casualties through the ages. It is the tradition that is causing these boys' deaths; the practitioners are an integral part of the tradition! Perhaps it is time to acknowledge that this part of the tradition belongs in the dark ages, and stop practising it!

      Puleng Mabuya - 2013-05-21 13:56

      i understand what u are saying disagree amandebele have been practising this culture for so long i have never heard of boys dying. they don't allow just anybody to go the boys ask permission frm their parents first if they agree then they do a ritual to protect their child .b4 they go to the mountain dis boys went to clinics and hospital to check if they any diseases if a boy is sick they don't allow them to go. Some cultures anyone can go even if the boy is 9,some boys are even kidnapped to make money dats is why they die.dis is the first and i hope the last time its happened in mpumalanga.

      Peter Grant - 2013-05-21 17:42

      Hello puleng. I'm sorry but I have to side with mastersvoice (not a cool name for this forum) on this one. I am in my late forties and grew in a semi rural area. the young boys/men "amakhweta" would camp out in the bush quite near our house. From as early as I understood what they were dong there I remember there being several deaths every year. there are several reasons for this 1, Adult or puberty circumcision is not the same minor surgery that it is in children. 2, They are camped out in the bush in unsanitary conditions, infection is almost a certainty. 3, At the time their body is trying to heal itself they are deprived of food, primarily proteins that the body needs to grow the scar tissue. 4, and lastly the actual process is often done by an untrained practitioner using dubious equipment (often an old pocket knife in the bad old days) I am sorry to say it but this qualifies as a high risk tradition. Perhaps this is something our house of traditional leaders needs to look at.

  • Imraan Gassiep - 2013-05-21 13:13

    The weirest things shock our president and stimulate a response.

  • Pol Sec - 2013-05-21 13:15

    It's a miracle, his voice has return after his DG's cleared him.

  • Cassandra - 2013-05-21 13:17

    And the minister in charge of this portfolio says she can't interfere with what's going on that continues to murder young men because she's a WOMAN under her culture doesn't allow for it!!! This is a good and common example of what SA has got for governance...Oi veh!!!

  • Cassandra - 2013-05-21 13:20

    It's difficult to believe that the clown, Zuma, is shocked and outraged at anything that goes on in this country...check his track record, I mean, would YOU take him seriously??

      Alan Gernet - 2013-05-21 13:44

      ummm umm lemme think umm umm can I get back to you?

  • Chreamz George - 2013-05-21 13:20

    Bloody Inkwenkwe.

  • Edgar Mooi - 2013-05-21 13:21

    What a pain to the family ,? Im having concern with those who circumcises these boys about their competency of doing this job . Im a venda man who have been circumcised in a very cold area of tshamulungwqi in venda but we never experience death and if you check how many people we lost every year in other areas of safrica i think the venda people must be taken to help this other around safrica. We must have way out to stop these ...... Pls ....

  • Ian Despy - 2013-05-21 13:21

    Common we are in the 21st century now. These young men did not have to die.

  • Steen Phatse - 2013-05-21 13:23

    Shocked!is pres Zuma in the country?he is so quiet recently ijo.

  • Thoko Lombeni Masango - 2013-05-21 13:23

    This is our culture please respect it . Two weeks back kids died in KZN because of healthy circumcision . No one spoke about but now because this is run by a black person. Even the stupid people can complain . This culture is going nowhere even this stupid president won't tell us enything . As naye msana boys don't say anything . only man can talk on this issue .

      Mike Wormleighton - 2013-05-21 13:44

      Could someone out there who is better educated than I, please explain the difference between the word Culture and the word tradition? I have grown up to understand that "Culture" implies some sort of high quality performance or entertainment such as Opera and usually in a place of quality and beauty. Cetainly not in the Bush with mud on your face. Tradition I am all for in the right place but surely people who want the trappings of the western world such as BM's and Cell Phones and Ipads could also understand that "medicine" has moved on in the last 3 centuries. Please let's use the word Culture in it's correct place.

      Sandile Makhaye - 2013-05-21 15:10

      You have lost touch with your self identity...calling your elder a stupid just to impress your white crowd...try telling them the Zille is stupid they will turn against you..not because they like her but because yu are black and not qualified to say it...wake up one is forcing you to like Zuma but do not is cultureless people like you that are killing these children in the mountain....

      Sandile Makhaye - 2013-05-21 15:14

      Mike Worm...something is a foolish worm to have such a narrow definition of culture and tradition....

      MJS1234 - 2013-05-21 21:28

      Many years ago my "culture" thought that woman should not be allowed to vote, that it was ok for children to work in factories, even that people with different skin colour were less important than them. However, as people learnt more and questioned systems they realized that these beliefs were wrong! This practice of your culture is killing innocent young boys, maybe you need to question the system? People evolve, just because something is seen as "cultural" or "traditional" does not make it right.

  • tony.naidoo - 2013-05-21 13:28

    Yebo zoom zoom. Your spear is next! ! !

      Bongane Zwane - 2013-05-21 14:13

      go get a room.

  • Thuto-rial Moosser - 2013-05-21 13:29

    And what exactly are you doing about it? Set up an inquiry commision committee to find out what led to the death of these initiates??

      Bongane Zwane - 2013-05-21 14:12

      what a stupid answer.

  • Rouan de Villiers - 2013-05-21 13:33

    Why are you outraged Zuma? Its YOUR stupid culture forcing it upon these kids.

      Bongane Zwane - 2013-05-21 14:11

      wrong.. Answer.

      Cane Corso - 2013-05-21 14:43

      Not a Zulu practice

      Sphe Ndlovu - 2013-05-21 16:14

      No one is forced...and its not stupid

  • Pac Shakur - 2013-05-21 13:34

    Last year miners died,last month soldiers died,rapists kill innocent women everyday,farm murders,e.t.c but Zuma never breathed a damn word about those incidents,but now that this tragedy has something to do with the African traditional way then he's deeply worried because he believes in African dictatorship ways.I also feel for those innocent boys who lost their lives but Zuma is a damn f*#*@n dictator and tribalist,think about it.

  • Rogerio Sequeira - 2013-05-21 13:38

    It seems he has very strong opinions when it comes to matters of the head. Pity his outrage does not extend to other, equally deserving, issues like: the lack of education of MILLIONS that will impact hugely on our country for the next 50 years, the corruption plaguing all levels of Government that stalls development and impacts negatively on the lives, and indeed deaths, of MILLIONS in our country every day, the lack of health care, housing, drinking water, sanitation etc plaguing MILLIONS due to the complete ineptitude of most Government officials, starting with him and we could go on ad nauseum. That unfortunately should also be what PRICKS his outrage!

  • Betty Sibeko - 2013-05-21 13:47

    Thanduxolo you are so defensive you even ignoring the writing on the wall, please check the last paragraph. Because you survived then we should not have a different view from you, absurd if you ask me. The lives of these young men clearly don't mean much to you, they clearly don't if you don't understand our frustration as a nation. I'm sure Mr President should be able to do something to stop these unnecessary deaths. What life lessons are really being taught there that they are not even suppose to share them? Thanduxolo with all respect maybe you can share some light, what values did you learn while you were there. When you compare yourself to your mates of other tribes and race, how would you weigh yourself? If you went there in 2006 I'd say you are a fairly young man, do you think had you been circumcised by a medical doctor your life would have been any different?

      Thanduxolo Galada - 2013-05-21 14:15

      You are right I am defensive and it's the one time I am not ashamed to be defensive. I stand for what I believe in. I am very sorry these boys have passed on. They are part responsible for this fate. Did they have their parents permission to undergo the rite? Many 'stole' themselves out of peer pressure, they saw their boy friends go and wanted to go - even though it was before their time. The result? They went to illegal/inexperienced exploiters who performed the circumcision part. That is what happens when boys are not even 18. Who checked for I.D. books? Haven't gone to the clinic for STI check up. Haven't asked parents and fall to peer pressure.

  • Thanduxolo Galada - 2013-05-21 14:04

    I say this to the white ignorance/arrogance and blacks who are coconuts, seeing their own people as backward in the interest of appeasing their white masters: You don't know what you are speaking about. Zizithethe namasiko, in my case, akwaXhosa that have been passed on from our ancestors. You have the gall when your racist colonialist forefathers came to this land disrespecting the culture and heritage of its people. This is a case of immature boys who wanted to be recognized as men before their time, because they saw peers doing it, they went along stealing themselves and unregistered/illegal/inexperienced boys exploiting the situation.

      Jakes Cakedregs - 2013-05-21 14:21

      Ritual circumcision is outdated, primitive, torturously barbaric and utterly useless - for whatever reasons it may be practised, religous, cultural or otherwise. Civilised people call it genital mutilation.

      Thanduxolo Galada - 2013-05-21 14:31

      What would you know about ritual circumcision?

  • Andy Beak - 2013-05-21 14:05

    Speaking from his R 206,000,000 palace Jacob Zuma expressed outrage that people are denied proper medical care as a result of lack of funding.

      Alan Gernet - 2013-05-21 14:12

      isnt there a new clinic @ Nkandla that could help out?

  • Sbo Kubeka - 2013-05-21 14:10

    Self-respecting parents should take their sons to clinics to be circumcised. Stop this carnage in the name of tradition/ culture. It has nothing to do with Zuma. Parents send their kids to these dodgy schools. Just stop.

      Alan Gernet - 2013-05-21 14:14

      I respect that thee are traditions, but people first need to be educated about the dangers of some traditions. If the parents are clueless, the young lads have to do what they are told. So again - it comes back to a lack of basic education.

      Simlindile Chris Mkana - 2013-05-21 14:20

      I would say you are wrong Sbongile... The only way to overCome this ...firstly parents must nt allow the child to go there befr 18 ...secondly there are rules there and these rules apply to all who are there so people should be careful and Follow those rules.... And sir tell me if one goes to the clinic then wht was the whole idea of even going on with the procedure ...check ma point sir...or did u go to the clinic...?

      Puleng Mabuya - 2013-05-21 14:24

      self respecting parents???really sbongile.uyanginyanyisa

      Thanduxolo Galada - 2013-05-21 14:30


      Sbo Kubeka - 2013-05-21 14:34

      As a parent, you should not send your child to a dodgy circumcision school. Infact in this day and age, no child should be circumcised in the bush or some unhygenic place/school. They should go to clinics, the service is free. Now about painting faces, learning about coming of age - there are a lot of books to help. You cant tell me 26 kids did not follow rules. Lastly, I am a woman, I did not go to the clinic.

      Sbo Kubeka - 2013-05-21 14:59

      @Thanduxolo, Fotyela? kwaaaaaaaa! did u want to write futsek? hahahahaha! you are hilarious!

  • Cane Corso - 2013-05-21 14:27

    Bla bla bla. What about the previous 18 years. What about the average 75 murders per day. What about the murder of farmers? Hypocrite!!!

  • G.I Jane - 2013-05-21 14:28

    Aaaa you woke up zuma

  • Bruce Gauld - 2013-05-21 14:30

    Maybe he didn't have his done.

  • Sbo Kubeka - 2013-05-21 14:37

    @Puleng hlanza cc...the truth hurts.

  • Sbo Kubeka - 2013-05-21 14:39

    @Puleng hlanza cc...the truth hurts.

  • Vincent Sbuda Choba - 2013-05-21 14:42

    our elders have not familiariased them self with the suddern changes that are tking places in our life. culture is still followed in the right way the problem is that most young people are highly involved with drugs and sexual intercourses, which according to culture one has to abstain from all those this before going to initiation school. the blame still falls to the parents of the upgrowing boys to teach them about the pre-procedures of initiation. our authorities are not to be blamed rather the poor parenting needs to be taken into concidaration in this case

      Thanduxolo Galada - 2013-05-21 20:18

      I agree. Other thing is, at least it's being more prevalent in Mthatha and other parts of the Transkei. Initiates by the 100's staying together at the homestead of the traditional surgeon with dedicated traditional nurses that stay there full-time, themselves not engaging in sexual intercourse. This provides rules as to who can be there and proper treatment/protection of initiates.

  • Thembalethu Mdumane KaNtoyanto - 2013-05-21 14:43

    I dnt get this, some of those initiates grand parents were never initiates themselves, copying other ppl religions not knowinng how its done, u get these results. Stop copying other cultures religions

  • Gideon Viljoen - 2013-05-21 14:55

    Last year the same thing happened, so why is Zuma only concerned this year??? How much longer until 2014???

  • Cabbage Promise Goats Dlamini - 2013-05-21 15:05

    This is national tragedy that is happening every year. Evil ANC is not doing anything to stop it. Every year it is the same and evil ANC is too busy stealing and lying to care.

  • Winifred Watson - 2013-05-21 15:13

    oh the same statement every time must be a recorded version.....ZUMA shocked and outraged. same old same old comments, so I guess Zuma doesn't even care or even know anything about this.