Don't neglect African culture: Zuma

2011-12-21 14:44

Johannesburg - President Jacob Zuma has called upon South Africans to not neglect African culture while embracing Western culture and Christianity, the presidency said on Wednesday.

"While we should embrace Western culture and Christianity, we should not neglect the African ways of doing things," presidency spokesperson Mac Maharaj said in a statement.

The Timeslive website reported that Zuma told attendants at the launch of a road and crime safety awareness event at KwaMaphumulo in KwaZulu-Natal, that, "as Africans, long before the arrival of religion and [the] gospel, we had our own ways of doing things.

"Those were times that the religious people refer to as dark days but we know that, during those times, there were no orphans or old-age homes. Christianity has brought along these things," he said.

Tradition eroded

Maharaj said that the faith-based sector had made a "sterling contribution" for the struggle for liberation and justice for over a century in South Africa.

He said Zuma would meet religious leaders in the new year to discuss how they could work together on issues of social development, healthcare, rural development, basic education and the fight against crime.

Maharaj said that Zuma's comments at the campaign conveyed his views that "while we welcome the advent of Western culture, some useful traditional ways of doing things and aspects of African culture were undermined or even eroded".

These in particular affected the "cohesion" of communities.

He said drawing the conclusion that these comments implied a "negation or rejection of Christianity", was "mischievous".

End of the extended family

"The president indicated, amongst other things, that Western culture had brought about the end of the extended family as an institution, leading to the need for government to establish old-age homes, orphanages and other mechanisms to support the poor and vulnerable.

"He added that even poverty was an unknown factor as neighbours were always ready to assist each other, giving one another milk or cattle where needed."

Maharaj said that "as a whole," the president and the government enjoyed a "positive and fruitful working relationship" with the faith-based sector.

An example of this was how religious leaders had helped identify and assist beneficiaries to obtain social grants.

They also assisted with education, and supporting those who had been victims of crime, social disasters and those who were living with HIV/Aids.

Honorary pastor

In 2007, Zuma was ordained as an honorary pastor at a meeting of independent charismatic churches in Durban.

Zuma and certain members of the ANC have a history of using religious terminology to promote the party.

On Tuesday, ANC Chief Whip Mathole Motshekga received thunderous applause after he told attendants at the Limpopo ANC elective conference in Polokwane, that "the organisation has a responsibility to rule until Jesus pays us another visit".

These remarks echoed comments made by Zuma in June 2009 at a rally in Mpumalanga, when he said that the ANC "will rule until Jesus comes".

In February this year, Zuma caused outrage after he apparently tried to woo Eastern Cape voters for the local elections by telling them they would go to heaven if they voted for the ANC, and conversely would experience fiery damnation if they did not.

A Democratic Alliance transcript of Zuma's remarks during the voter registration drive in Mthatha claimed he said: "When you vote for the ANC, you are also choosing to go to heaven. When you don't vote for the ANC, you should know that you are choosing that man who carries a fork - who cooks people."

  • Youefoh - 2011-12-21 14:46

    shower head is at it again, blah blah blah! STFU!

      Bardy - 2011-12-21 14:52

      He should not be an honorary pastor! It's either full Christianity or nothing... You can't live in the old way of doing things which contradicts Christianity! He can do whatever he wants in anycase... He should just not expect me to change my views and beliefs because of what cr@p he thinks is correct...

      Hans - 2011-12-21 14:57

      He actually has a point. In the past, men ran around naked, playing with bows and arrows, came home and drank beer and be served by the women, who did all the work.No tax to pay as well.Yes, I see his point. God this man makes a fool of himself everytime he opens his mouth. I wonder if they take their time to read what they are about to say.Who prepares his speeches?The African way did nothing for the people of Africa for thousands of years and yet he wants to go back to that?

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 14:57

      bardy,are you saying its either the christian way or no way

      Bongani - 2011-12-21 14:59

      Our ancestors also didn't have Jets and they didn't have R70 Million to build houses. The West and Christianity certainly brought very juicy nice trimmings with them.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 15:08

      @Bardy In the name of "the only true religion" or "higher civilization" or "progress" century after century has witnessed the dismantling, deforming and defaming of African institutions, a necessary precondition for the more perfect exploitation of African peoples and resources.In order to undermine the indigenous African culture the invaders have always attempted to destroy the spiritual, educational and social foundations wherever they went. Zuma is spot on.

      Bardy - 2011-12-21 15:09

      @ Jowza - Not at all... It's your choice. But you can't preach Christianity and live another way as well. There is no half way to Christianity! Either you are a Christian or not!

      Ray - 2011-12-21 15:27

      The "African" way of things ie no written language,no invention of the wheel etc etc

      Sizwe - 2011-12-21 15:48

      stupid youefoh or it it ufo

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 15:50

      @Ray I don't know if it is your ignorance of history or your naivety which is most appalling!

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 16:11

      if he does not,will you burn him at the stake?frnk

      Joseph - 2011-12-21 19:23

      Christianity should not be empossed on people but people should choose their own religian without being called names.I do not embrace or subscribe to christianity.Thats my belief.

      Rob - 2011-12-22 09:00

      Graziella. Be careful, you are showing your sentimental side. It is easy to say that things were better in the past. For a start you do not have to live there amongst the animals and diseases. Secondly your perception of what the past was like is your own construct abd is heaviliy influenced by your life experiences including the people you have listened to. It is not the real past that you talk of, and it is highly probable that discovering the real facts of the past is impossible. So by all means hold true to your version, but do not make the mistake of believing that no one else has a valid version...that is what politicians try to do to us....keep your brain.

      Graziella - 2011-12-22 10:24

      @Rob Are there no deseases now or animals. Your and you ilk not godsend. Yes we are a conquered people, but that doesn't mean that I must accept that. I am an African, tied to this land and no amount of education can change that. And you seem not to grasp what the term context relates to.

      John - 2011-12-22 17:02

      ANC are guilty of ignorance, incompetence, negligence, abortion, murder, and Genocide. Look at nationalization: The single most important factor about " nationalization " is: It has not succeeded in '100' countries over '100' years. The countries which have tried it have FAILED, and are moving AWAY from " nationalization ". Russia, China, India, Vietnam, Cuba, Venezuela, Tanzania, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, etc, etc. ALL FAILED. Not only did the TOTAL CONTROL OF THE ECONOMY fail, but the TOTAL CONTROL OF THE PEOPLE also failed. Malema, Cosatu, ANC do not have any ace, or advantage of any kind that makes it possible for nationalization to succeed in South Africa. There are comparable samples of same populations trying TOTAL CONTROL and FREEDOM ECONOMICS: Germany, freedom success, East Germany, nationalization failure. South Korea, freedom success, North Korea, nationalization failure. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, freedom success, China, nationalization failure. Western Europe, freedom success, Eastern Europe, nationalization failure. Malema, Cosatu, ANC are guilty of ignorance, incompetence, negligence, abortion, murder, and Genocide.

      CALAMITYSA - 2011-12-22 18:16

      Graziella - Interesting comment. Would have preferred to live in the future and prepare all the damages of the past ourselves. The ancestors takes long to answer and does not really supply real solutions. Will have to put my bed lower for better communication with them.

      John - 2011-12-22 18:28

      President Zuma ( Zero understanding matters any ); God is NOT the Communist Party ( of SA or USSR ). nyabona? ( see ?)

      Sharkshoot - 2011-12-22 18:42

      Don't fuss Zooma. The culture of killing and stealing is still very much practiced by your people.

      Edward - 2011-12-22 22:21

      @graziella, Let's take off the rose colored glasses. Mr. Zuma's comments about no old age homes and orphanages is ignoring history. Life expectancy in the 16th century was below 45 and infant mortality was well over 50%. So not having old age homes and orphanages had little to do with culture. As to the family and peaceful attitudes of the African people explain then how the San people lost the land to the Zulu's and other tribes from the north. It wasn't by cheerful and friendly negotiations. The same thinking occurs in the US with regards to the Native Americans. They are depicted as peaceful carefree peoples until the arrival of the colonials. I'm in no way defending what these settlers did but the American Indians were quite skilled at making war long before the arrival of the europeans. In addition they weren't kind family oriented peoples. They had a policy that "if you couldn't chew the fat" make a contribution to tribal life then you were kicked out of the tribe and put on your own. Those who were kicked out were the sick and the elderly. They were left on their own to either starve to death or die of exposure. We always like to create myths about our past. Unfortunately there is no culture that is so spotless that it can say let's return to the good old days because the good old days never existed in the past. They exist only in sanitizing of our own past. Remember you heritage but don't sanitize it.

  • mholthuysen - 2011-12-21 14:50

    And once again a lesson in democracy dear struggle movement - you do not rule in a democracy - you serve. But as we can see with the service delivery, corruption and general attitude of our beloved "leaders" - that this has been totally forgotten!

      Itse - 2011-12-21 19:35

      ANC your job is done,the struggle is over...time to move over and let a better party serve us.

  • Geronimo - 2011-12-21 14:58

    West is best. Look what "Africanism" has done to EVERY other African country... Africa is the begging bowl of the world - the proof is very much in the pudding. Our fate is still in our hands, lets not make the same mistakes in SA as others before us have made. Or is JayZee simply trying to prepare us all for anoooother wife?

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 15:02

      are you mistaking politics and culture?

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 15:21

      This is so because the West has established a dependent economic and political structure on the continent of Africa.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 16:14

      I guess for most posters on here its much easier to recommend than coming up with any logical, coherent counter-arguerments.

      Johnny - 2011-12-21 17:02

      Agree. Let them, Africans, go back to their ways, running around half naked with spears and knob kieries, stealing cattle, murdering their opposition and drinking bear their many wifes made. No cars, Johnny Walker, Houghton houses or Gucci handbags. Western education and civilization is wasted on Africa.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 17:46

      What you have written is gibberish, designed to placate those idiots who live by racial stereotypes regarding Africans.

      Rob - 2011-12-22 09:08

      Graziella: You talk glibly of culture. What exactly is that? Let's see if we can get a sensible dialogue going here...but be careful it is not a simple question

  • Paulus - 2011-12-21 14:59

    Backtrack, backtrack! Damage control by Mac.

  • Adv. VanGraan SC - 2011-12-21 15:00

    I for one don't like Zuma, but he has got the point this time around.

      Con - 2011-12-21 15:07

      You can't embrace the trappings of western civilization and disparage it at the same time. Also, to make a comment like that, showerhead must point to countries that have not embraced western culture, where the people all live in this beautiful loving caring state that he describes.

      Bongani - 2011-12-21 15:19

      Advocate, I'm a bit stupid, won't you please tell me what Zuma's point is? Where should I spend Christmas? Visit my witch doctor and talk to my ancestors or should I attend the Christmas Mass? Will I get a mine or am I waiting in vain? Must I ask the ancestors for a mine or Mother Mary? I'm a bit dumb Advocate and he makes my head "deurmekaar" with all of his stories.

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 15:19

      try the sub-continent and china con

      Adv. VanGraan SC - 2011-12-21 15:34

      @Ibhubesi - It is a matter of interpretation and a rightful understanding of the context of zuma's remarks. The intention here is not to attack the western culture "I assume" It is a fact that very often, people who deviate from their cultural practices encounter problems in life.

      Bongani - 2011-12-21 15:47

      Advocate unfortunately my culture and traditions are not working in a modern society. I live in the city and people will think I'm stupid if I start dancing around when things at work don't happen my way. I can't afford 5 wives and school 20 kids. I also think it is demeaning to women to have them parade bare breasted around for our pleasure. Have I embraced the Western culture? Sure I have, because it is making me money. I don't worship in their churches, but I took from he West that suits me and I shunned the impractical stuff from my culture because having 5 wives will drain my financial resources. This 2011 and even the Boere are connecting to the Internet and not building ossewagons and wearing silly dresses and velskoene.

      Thozi - 2011-12-21 16:38

      @ Adv.VanGraan SC: ... and the man is an ordained Pastor, he certainly knows his stuff. What better authority can one get other than that? A Merry festive season to all!

  • satanslord - 2011-12-21 15:04

    The western world brought out the shower as well.

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 15:12

      did they?

      Grant - 2011-12-21 15:28 bored?

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 15:37

      Not forgetting typhoid, typhus, diphtheria, smallpox. And Rats.........

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 15:40

      no i am not grant,as far as history shows the brits learned to bath from the east

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 15:52

      @Jowza Public baths, were common in the cities of Maghreb at a time when in Oxford the doctrine was still being propounded that the washing of the body was dangerous act.

      Rob - 2011-12-22 09:20

      Graziella: Now stop it...making unsupported statements Establishing the exact locus of the first outbreak of any disease in ancient history is a challenge that is probably beyond current resources. However there will be early reportings of conditions suspected to be one or other disease, and inevitably those reports will come from more medically/technically advanced societies. Therefore it is hardly suprising that "The West" is labelled as the source. Take for example The Plague of Athens in the 5th century BCE. Yes it happened in Athens, and yes it was suspected to be either smallpox or typhus. Recent reseach points towards typhus and Ethiopia as the source of the epidemic. Does that mean that Ethiopia is to blame fore typhus. Please, get real and stop fabricating out of the air. But more importantly is what is done to control the spread of disease, now that opens up a new area for debate and criticism, maybe take a shower!

      Graziella - 2011-12-22 10:31

      If Africans, just like any other native people hadn't experienced certain deseases before the arrival of the white men and these deseases started with their arrival, then the white men is responsible for bringing those deseases to those particular areas, not forgetting RATS.

  • Graziella - 2011-12-21 15:04

    Africa needs leadership, empowerment, and inspiration and a reconnection to its culture more than any outdated economic models that help it participate in the global economy. The cultures in Africa that have thrived - the ones you don't hear about - are the communities who have kept themselves off the globalized economic grid. "The African family is the foundation of African culture and its destruction is the most passionate objective of what is called "Western Civilization."- Dr. Jacob H. Carruthers from Intellectual Warfare p 270-71. The Romans, Arabs and later Eurasian and European invaders knew that to totally subjugate the African people they had to attack, discredit, mock and ultimately destroy the African cultural base by destroying the institutions that were the glue that held African societies together. The closing, sacking and defacing of the temples by the Romans, the desecration and marring of the pyramids and tombs by the Arabs and Europeans was their thrust to crush African institutions, symbols and supplant them with their political and cultural hegemony. If we are to recover our sanity, regain any sense of our authentic African selves and our cultural and political cohesiveness so we can mount an effective counter thrust to neutralize the Eurasians' programs of menticide, genocide and culturally induced self-destruction we have to build our own self-perpetuating, values and lifestyle shaping institutions.

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 15:08

      thank you graziela

      dhopwood3 - 2011-12-21 15:15

      I suggest your comment hinges very much on how one defines 'thrive'

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 15:31

      True, thrive is a relative word, just like freedom, but you culture has attempted to box it into a situation were one owns a flat plasma screen, etc.

      dhopwood3 - 2011-12-21 15:54

      No, that's consumerism. Rather different from 'Western' civilisation, let alone Christianity.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 16:07

      Ok then, what is "thrive" in the western context?

      Jayen - 2011-12-21 16:24

      Oh for god Sake!!!! send a smoke signal or beat a drum.. and stop using the internet! Please dont use the butchery and go hunt for your meat. lets turn to our ancestors who say lets have sex with a young virgin to cure Aids... or lets all go and get the muti for the winning lotto numbers from DR Aboo..... wait lets go get that lost lover back!!! Lets take money from a newly wed couple who need to start their lives of and need that money....ooohhh tokoloshe!!!!! what about the praye and muti that make a bullet go around me, and not kill me. Hold the phones... no literally hold it... who need phones when i can walk 50 km's to tell my wife im thinking of her...... I hope some body is catching my drift.... if not you prob sitting in another african country and this msg is comming through in dribs abd drabs dur to your pathetice 56k dial up modem, and lack of a suitable power supply. :)

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 16:39

      Why should I give up these things, no one has given them to me for free. Humans have always traded goods or services with one another. There's nothing western about that.

      Itse - 2011-12-21 19:45 have a fan in me...Graziella for President!!!you ROCK!!!

      Brent - 2011-12-22 08:41

      It's so easy to mud-sling each other's cultures, but the evidence is in what has been accomplished by the people for themselves. It's all about attitude. Each culture has done things that are wrong in the past, but what have we learnt from it? I have travelled across Africa and I have yet to see a successful nation in Africa. African "culture" has led to gross corruption, the abandonment of babies in dirt bins and alongside the railway lines in Kempton Park, senseless beating up and maiming of people in barbaric fashion. How can this be good in any way? No, Africans need to change their attitude and begin taking responsibility for their own well being and MAKE THINGS HAPPEN.

      Rob - 2011-12-22 09:41

      Graziella: You are doing the unsupported assumption thing again. Humans have not always traded. Trade came about because of the production of surplus and long term storage capabilities. That is not living day-to-day. Climate for sure was a factor, but so was technical advancement. If you are referring to exchange or barter, yes that may well have happened when humans started to live in groups, but that is definitely not trade.

      Graziella - 2011-12-22 11:51

      It is trade in the true sence of the word, yes the scale might have been different.

  • Helmut - 2011-12-21 15:09

    Its time he joins his ancestors

      Itse - 2011-12-21 19:48

      He better soon...

  • Helmut - 2011-12-21 15:14

    But the western money culture is like religion to them

  • dhopwood3 - 2011-12-21 15:17

    Even Mac clearly has a challenge in defending the indefensible

  • Johan - 2011-12-21 15:21

    African culture is directly opposite to Christianity and to pray to ancestors or use witchcraft would not please my GOD. Zuma reminds me of the arrogant Pharaoh king of Egypt. Experience the wrath of the only living GOD.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 15:33

      Is the dead Jesus not an ancestor?

      dhopwood3 - 2011-12-21 15:56

      Ha, Graziella 1; Johan: 0

      Jerhone - 2011-12-21 15:59

      TO Graziella so you'in your infinite wisdom proved that Jesus is dead?

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 16:20

      It is your gospels that says he died on the cross and was buried like the rest of us, before he became a ghost and went to heaven to be next to his father. You lot also visit your loved ones'graves and perform all sorts of "rituals" once there. Isn't that a form of worship?

      Jayen - 2011-12-22 15:21

      stupid Graziella... speaking with no knowledge once again. what happend? cut and paste function on google is not working any more....

      Henk - 2011-12-23 12:03

      Graziella, as far as I know Jesus did not have children, so He cannot be an ancestor to anyone. You are brave by defending your position, but don't be foolish.

  • Sylvia - 2011-12-21 15:23

    Zuma only opens his mouth to change feet. I would prefer that he keeps it closed.

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 15:34

      i wonder if we can say the same thing about you

  • Max - 2011-12-21 15:24

    What people is forgetting is that Europeans almost had the same culture as the current African one but that was a few thousand years ago. There might be good principals in African culture left as in many other cultures but these are just good principals.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 16:02

      The dark-middle ages lasted up until about the 1400s, North and West Africa had a superior civilisation to much of western Europe at that time. German explorer, Leo Frobenius, in ?African Civilisation, 1936, says: ?When they (European navigators in the Middle Ages) arrived in the Gulf of Guinea and landed at Vaida, the captains were astonished to find streets well cared for, bordered for several leagues in length by two rows of trees; for many days inhabited by men clad in brilliant costumes, the stuff of which they had woven themselves! More to the South in the kingdom of Congo, a swarming crowd dressed in silk and velvet; great sovereigns, rich industries ? civilized to the marrow of their bones?What was revealed by the navigators of the fifteenth to the seventeenth centuries furnishes an absolute proof that Negro Africa, which extended south of the desert zone of the Sahara, was in full efflorescence, in all the splendour of harmonious and well-formed civilizations, an efflorescence which the European conquistadors annihilated as far as they progressed?As for me, I have seen in no part of Africa the Negroes worship a fetish. The idea of the ?barbarous Negro? is a European invention which has consequently prevailed in Europe until the beginning of this century.?

      Jayen - 2011-12-21 16:27

      Hey Graz.. see you got the copy and paste function mastered from google.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 16:35

      You are just too stupid to realise the 3rd line of my post.

      Andries - 2011-12-22 04:37

      Graziella: I've been reading your posts and laughing heartily all the while. You seem to have as frail a grasp on reality as Zuma does. There is a quite significant library of information about pre colonial Africa available to anyone interested in finding out what those times were like. Sadly you are obviously one of those who prefer to simply make up your own history and obfuscate or deny the facts. Pathetic.

      Graziella - 2011-12-22 10:15

      I haven't made up any of my history, it is well researched and documented. But as quoted above, you prefer and have been taught the one that potrays the idea of the "barbarous Negro". The concerted and consistent effort of Europeans and Arab conquerors of African tribes and culture to replace our history with white or arab washed versions of history is well known.

      Jayen - 2011-12-22 15:25

      Hey Graz... see those question marks mid sentence in your essay.... that clearly shows a copy paste from an internet source... feel stupid now... i would think so.

  • Mohammed Afzal Jhetam - 2011-12-21 15:27

    100% correct, doesn't mean you hate the guy, his always wrong.... We live in an African country so don't neglect its culture.

  • Jerhone - 2011-12-21 15:27

    Now if Showerhead isn't the greatest zombie of them all, there were no orphans because all the zulu wars and black on black wars since time began, not one warrior was killed so there was no orphans, everyone was killed before they turned sixty, so no old aged people, this proves that aids has finally attacked his one and only brain cell

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 15:41

      and the world wars?jerhone

      Jerhone - 2011-12-21 15:51

      To Jowza1 I did not make the statement that there were no orphans and old aged people, so what has the world wars got to do with it? he said before the white man came Africa it was paradise

  • Hermann - 2011-12-21 15:32

    When it suites him the ANC will rule till the second coming of Christ (a Western deity) and when it suites hin it is the spirits if the forefathers. Zuma is nothing other than an opportunist aimlessly bobbing around in the see of political wealth.

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 15:43

      i am not christian,but please explain the spirit in the holy trinity to me

  • harry.coetsee - 2011-12-21 15:34

    Your own way of doing things got you mud huts and clay pots. Be thankful for what you get for nothing.

  • Sharmay - 2011-12-21 15:42

    as Africans, long before the arrival of religion and [the] gospel, we had our own ways of doing things. "Those were times that the religious people refer to as dark days but we know that, during those times, there were no orphans or old-age homes. Christianity has brought along these things," he said. I need to find a club to bash my supper to death with and a cave to live in because thats where our president thinks we should be. Christianity had nothing to do with those family systems. Evolution did. People stayed in groups because it was safe. If you dont like my culture and religion, don't force yours down my throat.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 15:57

      It was not Christianity but CAPITALISM that brought old-age homes and orphanages in this continent, including racism. Prevailing African customs such as polygamy were attacked without reference to their socio-economic function. On the question of monogamy the Christian missionaries were introducing not a religious principle but rather a facet of European capitalist society.

      Sharmay - 2011-12-21 16:03

      Got you the first time Graziella. Repost.

  • Alva - 2011-12-21 15:46

    Zuma=a very confused individual. I wonder if he smokes ganja before he stands up to speak? Certainly sounds like it!

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 15:47

      DO YOU?

      Sharmay - 2011-12-21 15:48


      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 15:55

      am i sharmay,or do you call people that dont agree wth you names

      spartanx93 - 2011-12-21 16:00

      I think eating that sushi of flyod & juju arses puts him on a high to make ridiculous comments such as this....

      Sharmay - 2011-12-21 16:02

      In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. For a wise-arse, you are quite slow.

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 16:06

      sharmay,since you are so smart,tell me where was i off topic

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 16:07

      oh spartan.what a lot of drivel

      spartanx93 - 2011-12-21 16:10

      oh jowza1, you must be really bored today to be trolling the forums.

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 16:15

      a trol?

      Jerhone - 2011-12-21 16:51

      to Jowza1 why do you answer a ouestion with a ouestion? please attack us with some facts

      Itse - 2011-12-21 19:58

      Thats an Awesome definition!!!

  • Buks - 2011-12-21 16:01

    Niks wat zuma of enige iemand sê maak n' verskil aan die Vader nie Hy het julle almal nog steeds LIEF en wil graag hê dat julle deur Jesus hom soek,en as julle Hom soek sal julle Hom vind en dan eers sal ons almal mekaar vind.Voor dit sal alles wees soos nou.

      Andries - 2011-12-21 17:39

      Vergewe selfs die moorde en diefstalle wat jy pleeg en selfs die wat jy nog gaan pleeg solank jy net jou hande in die lug steek en sê "Liewe Jesus ek glo jy het vir AL my sondes gesterf"? Dan is jou pad hemel toe geteer, maak nie saak wat jy gedoen het en nog gaan doen nie. Ja swaer. Behalwe dat jy verkeerd is.

  • Maximus Odinidus - 2011-12-21 16:03

    The prez wants everyone else to let go of their morality and join in the crime fest, corruption, murder, theft, polygamy, racism and genocide. He wants to return us to Adam and eve while he lives like donald trump. The ANC is filled with lies, hypocrisy and murderous intent.

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 16:08

      i think you missed the plot

      MaxOdin.SA - 2011-12-21 21:21

      @ jozwa if by plot you mean the african agenda. no I haven't missed it. i just don't belive spin doctors when the try making people look good after the fact. The damage is done. If Agnes Mathabane were a real person what do you think she'd be saying to JZ right now?

  • Graham - 2011-12-21 16:03

    Western culture has done nothing to prevent the extension of Zuma's family or anything else!

      spartanx93 - 2011-12-21 17:04

      nor his lack of common sense.

  • Kevin - 2011-12-21 16:10

    I'm hardly likely to forget the Efriken Kulsha..after all, this is the kulsha that has brought us looting, plundering, raping, murdering and thieving, as well as visiting the witch doctor to hide from the police. throwing the bones to see the future, and that major invention which has taken the world by storm, the I forgetting anything..?

      jowza1 - 2011-12-21 16:17

      yes you forgot to tell us that whatever you mentioned happened in europe also.remeber the vikings,romans etc etc

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 16:51

      I guess The US, Australia, New Zealand, Hawaai, Africa, Indian sub-continent and the Far-East have always had indeginous caucasian populations. Africa has become a 500 year experiment in human bondage, population control, and resource extraction - the enslavement and manipulation of an entire continent. Westerners have been fully involved in Africa for some 500 years now. Barring the interaction between Jews and Christians, the result has been the single most disastrous relationship between any two major groups of people in history.

      Jerhone - 2011-12-21 17:01

      To Jowza1 Kevin did not say it did not happen in Europe, but then AGAIN he did not say there were no orphans and old age people in Europe, like your hero showerhead claims was in Africa before the white men arrived,every time someone makes a comment the best you can do is "same to you", you debate just like a child

      Itse - 2011-12-21 20:06

      Jowza1 1;Kevin ZERO

  • rene.mcevoy - 2011-12-21 16:47

    ????? Where did any church tell the people to not care for the old and the orphans????? So when people do not care for their kin, some clot decides to blame the church rather than tell the people to return to their roots and become a caring people!!! I just get so frustrated when people make statements without facts.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 17:34

      Context, Zuma is not blaiming Christianity but those who swapped their superior human culture for the Christian one, looking for salvation in the afterlife instead of carring for their own in the now, as had been practised by their ancestors. A practise that didn't allow for orphans and places for the aged. A carring culture of Ubuntu which had no motive for profit in administerring society. We get a sense of how “barbarous” Natives of most continents were when, in the 1880s: "US Congress prepared legislation to break up the communal lands in which Indians still lived, into small private possessions, what today some people would call, admiringly, “privatization.” Senator Henry Dawes, author of this legislation, visited the Cherokee Nation and described what he found: “...there was not a family in that whole nation that had not a home of its own. There was not a pauper in that nation, and the nation did not owe a built its own schools and its hospitals. Yet the defect of the system was apparent. They have got as far as they can go, because they own their land in common...there is not enterprise to make your home any better than that of your neighbors. There is no selfishness, which is at the bottom of civilization.” This SELFISHNESS is what up to this day has brought unwanton destruction and untold suffering to billions of non westerners around the world in the name of civilisation.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 20:34

      It was civilisation then, followed by Christianity and now it's democracy. All of these western wonderfull exports brought through the barrel of a gun.

      Maximus Odinidus - 2011-12-21 20:36

      So what's stopping people from building and living in mud huts like they used to? Subsistence farming like they used to? Ubuntu that you proclaim? Apartheid never killed ubuntu. The unfulfilled promise of free sh1t by the current dispensation.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 20:56

      Yes we were and still are living in mud huts but intellectually we are light years ahead of you, because you haven't yet grasped what is to be civilised. One only has to listen to your argument.

      MaxOdin.SA - 2011-12-21 21:14

      My dear you haven't even begun to explore the bounds of my intellect, in fact I didn't call anyone's intellect into question but now that you go there intellect is nothing but perception. What people percieve one to be is what you are. Therefore I'm not even going to get into an intellectual debate with you because I have already sussed you out and can see right through you ;)

      rene.mcevoy - 2011-12-22 02:56

      Nobody has answered my question. Derogatory name calling and intellectual insults does not answer questions. What did the African culture do before the Christians came that cannot be done today regarding the orphans and old people?

      Andries - 2011-12-22 04:27

      'Yes we were and still are living in mud huts but intellectually we are light years ahead of you' : Graziella, you crack me up!

  • Faizie - 2011-12-21 16:48

    Yah its also African culture not to pay child maintenance like the father of my child. Simakade Jackson Zulu : 0826612000

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 16:56

      Is this also part of that culture that lets you embarrass yourself and your family on public internet forums?

      Itse - 2011-12-21 20:08

      LOL not on the net!!

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 20:58

      You lady, are uncultured indeed!

  • Adrian - 2011-12-21 16:56

    How sad. A nice country but ruled by Neanderthals.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 17:13

      Neanderthal behaviour is what Africans have been subjected to since the arrival of Jan Van Riebeeck and his kin.

      Itse - 2011-12-21 20:09

      Graziella 1; Oukaapje zero

  • Karmah - 2011-12-21 17:14

    He has run out of people to blame for his INCOMPETANCE. Now he turns to the church bwahahahahahaha. So who's next to be blamed hmmm? Think we should start a bet here.

  • Graziella - 2011-12-21 17:18

    Western Civilisation, as Ghandi observed, is a good IDEA.

  • Andries - 2011-12-21 17:32

    Mac (and you are not African,so why do you raise your voice? Where is Adfican culture neglegted? Pretoria Central looks more and more like Lagos or Kampala od Maputo. The roads look more and more like they do in Kenya and Uganda and Malawi and elswehere in Africa (that is inbetween the times the bancrupt Italians fix them up for the locals. Statistics on crime and corruption and break down of civil society is as good or better as in the rest of Africa. Nepotism and despotism and blue lights on the roads have overtaken them. Managment of big companies hae created someof the richest men in Africa. And so the list goes on. African culture is flourishing for the world to see. What's your concern?

  • Gerhard - 2011-12-21 18:05

    After JZ's comments it became clear to me that he actually looks funny in western clothes.

  • Daft - 2011-12-21 18:07

    ZUMA...ur nation has not built NOTHING in this world.....U show me ONE thing that U have built !!!

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 19:05

      As truly depicted by your lack of coherrence and moniker.

  • Itse - 2011-12-21 19:25

    I'm guessing it's in our culture to sleep around too:) Zuma please resign!!!

  • Itse - 2011-12-21 19:26

    Luthuli house time to recall Zuma!!!

  • Itse - 2011-12-21 19:32

    @ Graziella I read your comment,didn't understand a thing about it.TOO MUCH JARGON AND TOO LITTLE CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTARY ADDED!

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 20:07

      There are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, and the third is useless. — Machiavelli Your pick!

  • Raul - 2011-12-21 19:53

    Jet Shower.Yes he is not totally wrong. Those days men ran, naked and free without any worries. There was no need to work. Women used to do all the work for them. Since they never reached 40 years old (life expectancy was 35) there were no old aged homes and since Muti was practised without any law there were no orphans.

  • MaxOdin.SA - 2011-12-21 20:56

    The only thing that has any base in any of the arguments in the pro africanisation campaign here is that zuma has made allies of the agnostics and atheists. On the topic of westernisation and ubuntu, ubuntu was alive and well before the fall of apartheid. where is it now???? dead! raped cut up and shoved into a suitcase under a neighbour's bed. The old ways are dead too. subsistance farming and building mud huts are a thing of the past. people flock to metropolitan cities and leave behind their homes in eastern cape to do what? To get their piece of that western dream. What has killed principles like ubuntu and self reliance is the empty promises of the currnet dispensation. People have given up their pride and started relying on government to provide for them. In effect selling their birthright to the few that run our country (into the ground no less) for a handful of lentles. Don't get blinded by this crap about the west has created a dependant relationship in africa either. All the technology we use these days contains gold and where does everyone manufacture their products? China! The westernisation argument is nothing but a communist ploy to steer people away from democracy and towards a communist state. Further more the president's rant against christianity is indicative of his desire to control the masses with fear. If christianity is to blame for orphanages and old age homes then thank GOD. Imagine if those institutions weren't there. what would happen then?

  • MaxOdin.SA - 2011-12-21 21:10

    The president is just preparing the public for the ultimate let down. By his own admission free housing is no longer sustainable and will at some stage be cut off. This just another way of saying go back and build more mud houses because we stuffed up the education system and are running out of money for you so you have to go back to the old ways. We'll still be earning in excess of R1,6M a year after tax while you live in your mud homes and care for HIV babies and the aged because it's also not our social responsibility. To believe that the prez is just in his statements is just foolish. All you pseudo-intellectuals may have a good education but you are brainwashed in those institutions that teach you politics and whatever else you study. The world works in so many more dimensions than you are open to and you say christians are closed minded. actually we're not. we are just allergic to wool. Democracy gives the common man the power to choose his destiny, communism is to enslave the common man to the will of the government. Skrew all the intellectuals you quote. - I said it!

  • MaxOdin.SA - 2011-12-21 21:26

    Also as far as the west having a dependant relationship with africa, please elaborate below and no insults I actually would like to understand how the west is benefitting from Africa. I have my own theories but I'd like to know yours. let's have a frank debate.

      Graziella - 2011-12-21 22:47

      The World Bank itself has reported that proceeds from "carefully nurtured western backed plunder" amount to $1.6 trillion annually, dwarfing the $100 billion given in aid (more than which, in any case, is swiped back by the other western hand in the form of debt collection). Meanwhile, almost every war on the continent can be traced to the plunder of African resources to fuel cars, buy wedding rings and get the latest electronic gadget. Why do you think the whiteman came to Africa. Where do you think the resources that sustain western industry come from. Why do you think western development coincided with Africa'stagnation. What do you think the colonies were for? How much contribution to western development was/is colonial Africa responsible for. Do you believe that this colonial arrangement ended. Why do you think that countries like Spain, Portugal which had colonial economies are struggling today. How did the European capitalist class amass its surplus that it could share with its citizenry. Why do you think that African leaders that have refused to be supplecants of European hegenomy have been taken out, ostracised or assasinated. If Africa were to stop the flow of raw materials or other produce for two weeks, Europe would come to a stand still. This would have political and economic repercussions in the western world. Africa has and can survive without Europe if all trade links were to be cut off between the two continents, no so much for Europe.

      MaxOdin.SA - 2011-12-21 23:30

      You still haven't given me any example other than a carefully chosen quote to support your argument. On africa stopping raw materials, our number one ally in the world would come to a standstill. China. china and the far east that is. I don't know if you konw this but china and the far east manufacture many of the gadgets you so begrudgingly us. Most consumer electronics is manufactured there. How do I know? I work in the industry and researched imports. The gold used in the manufacture of wedding rings? really? That gets done where? in the west? I don't think so. Besides there is more gold used in the manufacture of electronics than wedding rings. All of the raw materials the west procure through market related prices and the same goes for fuel also. The americans also drill for oil in texas and off the gulf of mexico so that is hardly a dependant situation. On the topic of fuel, Sasol a south african company that manufactures it's own fuel independantly of the west charges south africa market related prices i.e. according to the US price per barrel of brent crude oil. Why is that when they manufacture it for so much less? By the way sasol is paratially a parastatal. Your government owns shares. The funny thing about this african agenda is that it seeks to cut the west off from trade because they are too involved in africa. Who sanctioned the apartheid government at the time in the name of human rights and democracy? And secondly it seeks to remove free trade.

      MaxOdin.SA - 2011-12-21 23:37

      Also graziella If you hadn't noticed the US and European countries are in debt to the world bank for all the loans they have made while they give hand outs to mugabe and victims of natural disasters and the last absolute monarchy in africa (even though he blew the money himself). It's all good and well to blame the west but people like gaddaffi stashed his country's money in offshore accounts and foreign investments. did the people of the country see a cent of that? nope! The african agenda seeks to further a communist agenda but in order to do so needs to expell the west from africa for fear that they will meddle. Evidence of this is the continued support for Mugabe and our president's delay tactics in dealing with Gaddaffi. The African way is to have a few people at the top living the life and subjugating the poor into poverty and by extension slavery.

      MaxOdin.SA - 2011-12-21 23:56

      I can also only go on the presumption (because I'm not psychic but I do get the feeling) that you are in favour of nationalisation of mining but let me ask you a question. How much of that money will realistically uplift the poor? There is money in South Africa. Oodles of it. Why wasn't that pumped into education? The ANC elected to spend some R400M of tax payers money on centenery celebrations. The NYDA spent some R100M on youth celebrations a while ago. That's at least R500M that could have been spent on educatiuon. Throw into that the Aid south africa give Zim and Mr. last absolute monarchy (which granted was rescended) and you have truck loads of money for education. And while we're at it the jets, friggattes and subs we spent billions on well do you see the picture I'm painting for you? After all a better educatiion system = qualified people = economic growth. You are mistaken when you assume that the minorities are here to complain about the ANC while we mooch off the country when indeed we see the above for the injustice it is. We actually care about our country and would like to see it prosper and by extension we care about you. We couldn't care less about some agenda that is akin to political cum economic warfare against the west.

      Andries - 2011-12-22 05:11

      Graziella: I was quite amused by your rather childishly simple understanding of africa’s plight and Maxodin has patiently and comprehensively demolished your arguments. But two of your silly comments -among the many you have posted- are especially hilarious: You seem to mistake the interconnectedness of the world economy as dependency on Africa. This is quite clearly nonsense, perhaps you are unaware that a country like Australia easily outstrips Africa’s contribution to the worlds raw materials, not to even mention Latin America or Russia. Secondly, you seem to seriously be under the impression that the blatant corruption of African leaders and governments is not an issue that needs addressing. You, like so many afro-centric critics, blithely blame the west for propping up corrupt governments but still Africa continues to somehow place these demagogues in power. You seem to want your bread buttered both sides, you want the economic benefits of western dominated world trade but refuse to clean your own houses. And then lamely blame the west for the mess you create yourself.

      Graziella - 2011-12-22 07:10

      Libya was investing in the implementation of three financial institutions launched by the African Union: the African Investment Bank, based in Tripoli, the African Monetary Fund, based in Yaoundé (Cameroon), the African Central Bank, based in Abuja (Nigeria). The development of these bodies would have enabled African countries to escape the control of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, tools of neo-colonial domination, and would mark the end of the CFA franc, the currency that 14 former French colonies are forced to use (The reason why France still has soldiers in some of those countries). ANC, communists, demagogues, NYDA, Mugabe, Gaddafi, WTF. You can twist and distort what I've said as much as you like, the way I have come to my opinion is easily legible.

      Andries - 2011-12-22 10:32

      Graziella: Are you seriously suggesting that a plan for African economic reform from a country until very recently run by a corrupt dictator would have had any sort of realistic impact on Africa’s millions and millions of poor people? If you are then I think you are not only naive but deluded. Africa’s revenue from it’s recourses has been plundered by it’s OWN leaders, not by Europe, not by China, not by America. In fact countries like France are now putting laws in place to stop 3rd world kleptomaniac rulers from using their banks as a depository for Africa;s stolen wealth. It’s high time Africa takes responsibility for it’s own actions and stops angling for more aid from the former colonial powers and the east. No amount of denying this sad reality and waffling on about ‘Africa needs leadership, empowerment, and inspiration and a reconnection to its culture’ on in an airy and moistly wishful fashion will change this simple fact : Africa needs to shape up or it will just keep falling further and further behind, simple as that.

      Andries - 2011-12-22 10:32

      As for the legibility of your conclusions. I read most of your posts here, including your citing of that afrocentric hack Jacob Carruthers through to your last post. If this thread of loose ideas and half grasped concepts represent your thought processes I rest my case. You seem to more interested in shoring up the imagined intellectual integrity and massively overstated the contribution of Africa to the worlds body of knowledge than in facing up to realworld problems and issues so blatantly obvious that to deny their importance is simply being wilfully obtuse. And NO progress can be made with such an obviously simplistic and flawed approach. Furthermore, you reduce the west’s contribution and impact on Africa to the most breathtakingly one-dimensional point of negativity that your entire argument simply implodes on you. This petulantly one sided revisionism is exactly the sort of retro fitting of history that Africa –and the world- doesn’t need. Better to understand all the pros and cons of colonialism that to savour the deeply toxic taste of victimhood you seem to relish so much.

      Andries - 2011-12-22 10:32

      I also love the way you include what one might call ‘Arabian Africa’ with the rest of sub Saharan Africa. A very large section of the Arab part of the continent views the African part with a disdain that makes the harshest colonial racist look positively benign. You seem to be unaware of this harsh truth. It is one of the main reasons why Mbeki’s African renaissance was such an distant pipedream and the likelihood of it every getting any significant backing is so remote. The arab world will only assist the rest of Africa on THEIR terms. As long as they can run the show they’d want to help. The chance for an sub Saharan African leader to manage arab affairs is not only remote but laughable.

      Graziella - 2011-12-22 11:43

      What power does the west has over Africa other than access to capital. The Sirte declarion was a good step for Africans to free themselves from neo-colonial institutions like the World Bank and the IMF with their punitive loans. Libya did this already in the 90s by putting up +-$300mil for Africa to launch its own satellite instead of the annual rental fee of $400mil to a French company. Europe developed for 200 years before any form of democracy as we know it today existed. It developed despited its feudal system. The form of governance had no relation to the development of that continent, even Russia for fuksake developed into a superpower despite having no democratic institutions. The west is not going to voluntarily give up its power and control as can be seen by the fight being put up by the US in regards to China, or the resistance to Libya being the financier of the continent, or Gbagbo advocating the nationalisation of that country's cocoa industry. Africa has no responsibility to accept the economic system bequeathed to it by its colonial masters. The Colonialists, America and some rich European countries, are running the world to suit themselves and they use their economic system which guarantees the status qou of inequality and under-development. There's an awful lot of Afrophobia mixed with colonial thinking in many of your comments.. Africans are not obliged to act, think or live like westerners.

      Andries - 2011-12-22 12:17

      Graziella: Once more you don’t directly respond to any of my points and assiduously avoid any mention of several rather massive elephants in the room: Rampant corruption, undemocratic rule, tribal and ethnic divisions not to mention corrosive religiosity and a host of other issues. Instead you spew forth a few lame non-sequiturs about Europe’s development. Are you simply incapable of focusing on the discussion at hand? I noticed this same tendency in your other posts, you have a habit of simply changing the direction of the debate when you are in a corner. As for your ridiculously inane claim of Afrophobia? Really???!! You can’t make up silly pseudo concepts and think that you’d be taken seriously. And then you have the gall to bring up ‘The Sirte declarion’. That little wistful fancy was issued in 1999. What has been done about it since? Nothing, other than to assemble the Pan-African Parliament. A organization supposedly dedicated to among other things human rights and democracy in Africa. Funnily enough most of the representatives are from countries that don’t have even the most basic democracy and appalling human rights records. As for ‘Africans are not obliged to act, think or live like westerners.’ I never said that they did. I said they had to act responsibly and come up with pragmatic solutions. Something that the continent as a whole –or hole- has been utterly incapable of doing.

      Graziella - 2011-12-22 15:45

      It was wishfull to you because your ilk and your grandfathers have always known whats best for Africans. It is this colonial mindset I'm referring to. You wouldn't notice it because it has become part of your charachter, it comes natural to you. Whatever declarations Africans make weren't going to to be fulfilled in 10 years, hence I said it was a start. But obviously it would have impacted on the west and its banking system, hence people like Gaddafi have to be rid off, because Libya had already put a lot of western banks out of business in Africa. The fact that you can't even imagine how Africans could do that without blindly following westerners shows precisely why Westerners should keep their hands off Africa's business, including Development Aid. It is Africa's business if they want to work with their muslim brethren or not. It is not up to you and your ilk to decide who it should work with. Of course, this does not let off the hook the mostly retarded crowd of grown men who lie, steal and trick their way to Africa's presidencies. Such men know very little about economics, African and world history or anything for that matter. The only positive thing about colonialism is when it ended. Africans are not going to thank you for exploiting and humiliating them.

      Graziella - 2011-12-22 16:21

      If you cannot acknowledge that Africa's under-development past and present is largely due to western interferrence (slavery ; occupation ; colonies ; economic dominance) - then you will never understand what I am saying, and we'll agree to disagree. And it is too tiresome for me to comment more on this dead topic.

      Andries - 2011-12-22 16:45

      Graziella- At no point did I say I know what is good for Africans or did I impose any demands on Africa’s leaders. (So, poof there goes that baseless claim you made.) I said Africans need to get their house in order. Am I wrong? Is the rule of law, democracy, transparency, the acknowledgment of human rights and accountability not the best possible ideals for a government to strive for? From what you have posted here in reply to me and others it seems like you have some secret ‘African solution’ that you have been keeping from us. By all means share your radical new form of government, maybe you are the new Ghandi and can change Africa’s destiny. Heaven knows they need any ideas that can help. Most af Africa has had 50 years of post colonial rule to get their house in order. What a great job they’ve done so far. I can’t wait to see what they come up with over the next 50. Bet you anything there will still be people like you who will blame africa’s plight on the west.

      Andries - 2011-12-22 16:45

      What is this odd obsession you have with Libya? This thread started with Zuma’s puerile remarks, yet you keep yammering on about Libya like that country is somehow a paragon of democratic virtue. You also –astoundingly- seem to infer that Gaddafi’s removal is somehow connected and orchestrated by western interests. Am I to take it that all the Arab Spring revolutions are also a nefarious western plan of world domination? If so what does that say about the supposed ‘take charge’ attitude you keep claiming Africa has. If a whole host of countries can be tricked into deposing their leaders all in one go, you obviously give the west more credit than I do. If only the west were that competent. As for your condescending reference to me and my ‘ilk’, I can only point out that you know absolutely nothing about me and these trite little ad-hominem only works in school yard level arguments. But since you brought the amateur psycho analysis into this little chat, allow me to respond: From your posts you come across as somebody who labours under the sad self loathing that the great Frantz Fanon described in his book ‘The Wretched Earth’. I suggest you give yourself a break.

  • Amanda - 2011-12-22 03:04

    What culture? 10 wives and 2000 children? Tying the private parts of bulls into knots and suffocating it by stuffing sand down it's throat? Slaughtering animals in the streets? Raping children? That culture?

  • Andries - 2011-12-22 03:50

    While Zuma’s comments do contain a grain of truth in its criticism of Christianity, I think the predictably rabid reaction of church leaders is missing to point of this argument. The fact that he supposes that there were no orphans or old age homes might be correct, the reason for the absence of these might be that the orphans likely got slaughtered with their parents in the many and continual wars that wracked pre-colonial Africa. Those ‘lucky’ enough to survive were either forcibly absorbed or simply enslaved by the conquering tribe. As for old age homes, well, yes Europeans came up with that idea. Not our greatest moment certainly, but a pragmatic approach to a realworld problem. Zuma’s inference that the aged are better off under traditional African values is of course utter tosh and for his claim to have any validity one needs only to ignore the fact that Africa’s life expectancy has a habit of sharply declining when things go even slightly wrong. And judging by the fact that we know pre colonial Africa was often gripped by famine, war and every other blight it is not hard to see that even at the best of times old people who needed care did not last very long. What is interesting is Zuma’s total blind spot when it comes to pre-colonial African history and his puerile ideas about what life was like in those distant times. If Zuma has such a frail grasp on history, one shudders to think what his vision of the future might be.

  • braamc - 2011-12-22 04:28

    Yes, if you don't vote for the thieving corrupt ANC your forefathers will punish you. How stupid can you be

  • Tony - 2011-12-22 05:28

    Zuma - "Dont neglect African Culture --- Leave it to me to neglect as I do with Eurocentric culture, horticulture, the Zulu culture, the Pedi culture ....... and how do you spell kulcha again??"

  • Graziella - 2011-12-22 06:54

    There is a wise African saying. "Beware of the outsider who weeps more than the bereaved". There are many outsiders who are weeping a lot here!

      dhopwood3 - 2011-12-22 09:37

      You might like to read (if not done so already) Noam Chomsky. He's your kinda guy. Conspiracies everywhere, but interesting nevertheless. I appreciate you stirring the pot, but you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar...You've also read The Scramble for Africa by Pakenham? There's no doubt that colonialism was based on the three 'C's; as I'm sure you're aware; Christianity, Civilisation and Commerce, and you have to believe that the central driving force was the latter, perhaps the worst case of which was Rhodes et al. Perhaps we've moved on from crass exploitation, but in the case of today's China, probably not. There's no doubt that in West Africa particularly there were 'thriving' cultures; Old Ghana, Niger, Monomutapa, but most civilisations common used as exemplars in "Africa" are/were those from the North; e.g Egypt, whcih IMHO are more akin to middle East. It's also the case though that the majority of the populations were living lives (after Hobbes) that were 'nasty, brutish and short'. My rough idea of what constitutes 'thriving' in the Western sense is probably the Scandanavian countries--and certainly not the US and most of Europe. Nevertheless, we have what we have and regardless of the relative merits of the Judeo-Christian culture vs. traditional African culture, the most exasperating issue in President Zuma's speech was that an appeal to return to traditional ways is wholly and utterly futile.

      Graziella - 2011-12-22 09:58

      Zuma's refference to old ways is in regards to values, there's nothing wrong with that. All the subsequent indignation and slanderring of Zuma and Africans in particular is begotten by the fact that Africans aren't supposed to aspire to have an identity different to that of their "masters", this is a subconcious trait that you lot suffer from, because in your minds you have been trying to "civilise" Africans and for them to revoke your ways is unacceptable. Zuma is right, there's nothing that Africans have learnt from your christian "civilisation" as far as values are concerned.

      CALAMITYSA - 2011-12-22 18:45

      "If you cannot acknowledge that Africa's under-development past and present is largely due to western interferrence (slavery ; occupation ; colonies ; economic dominance) - then you will never understand what I am saying, and we'll agree to disagree. And it is too tiresome for me to comment more on this dead topic." DEAD topic - correct! Very. Is Mugabe's culture acceptable? The culture of a headman can not be used for a country - or for Africa then. Sorry ma'am - you are totally missing every logical reason to hope evolution will help.

      Andries - 2011-12-23 04:32

      Graziella: Like I said before, you want it all your way. If people like me criticize the African governments we are ‘colonial racists’ if we agree that colonialism had terrible consequences we are insincere outsiders. Only you, the professional victim who suffers so beautifully has the moral high ground to have any true insights into these issues. How childish.

  • mzeke.ramoroka - 2011-12-22 08:29

    I think the President is just digging a grave for his political career. He just started with his own farewell. I am an african man who was raised very well in a Christian way. I seriously take offence in what he is saying...

  • Rob - 2011-12-22 08:35

    Hey Mr President, the intellectual pride of our nation, where do you get your ideas from? What was life expectancy before the White Man came? 30 years maybe 40 with a few getting to fifty. Imagine having to deal with such a population demographic - OLD AGE HOMES would be useless! AND THEN.... Does it not occur to you that one, if not THE, major driver of the need for OLD AGE HOMES is protection against the filth (criminal social and envirnomental) that increases around us because of African style government. Maybe there are some traditional value systems that can contribute to the wellbeing of everyone....such as respect for elders, respect for life, respect for environment, and more, but as I mention these I am wondering why it is that typical Africans today do not express these values.

      Graziella - 2011-12-22 09:43

      And what is a typical African to you. Do you live amongst Africans, how far do your daily interactions with Africans go. You know nothing about how Africans live, never mind those in the rest of the continent

      Rob - 2011-12-22 09:53

      Graziella: I judge typical Africans by the sample that I come into contact with. I see the effects of their value system when I walk through my suburb and visit local shops...that is all first hand. I do not judge from News 24 comments but I do read the news items and USE my brain to interpret them. I live amongst the many Africans who now live in what was a whites only suburb. Sure it is a limited sample, but it is my life experience.

      Rob - 2011-12-22 09:57

      And Graziella. You have a dangerous habit of drawing unfounded conclusions. How can you state unequivocally that I know nothing about how Africans live , never mind the rest of the continent. I have seen enough of Yeoville, Niarobi, Lusaka, Lagos, Cairo, Tobruk, Harare, Gabarones, and much more to have built an impression. You need to recognise the difference between what you know and what you know you do not know.

      Graziella - 2011-12-22 11:49

      How could you possibily know when you do not speak any indigenous language, never listen to indeginous radio/tv and only interact with Africans in a master and servant relationship. If you would just walk in our shoes for a short while you might just understand the "typical African".

  • ludlowdj - 2011-12-22 08:43

    Zuma and the ANC sure do think a lot of themselves don't they. I wonder if we should counter with facts and figures related to barbaric "African" cultural practices. I totally agree that if there is a Christian God he most certainly will not be found in the church, And that yes the Catholic church as an organisation is guilty of more crimes against humanity than any other church body in the history of man, however highlighting one set of wrongs while ignoring another is also totally unacceptable. Zuma is well aware of the hundreds of years of clan and tribe wars that is effectively "Black" history

  • Gwen - 2011-12-22 08:56

    Hush... Everytime I hear those words in private talks, people Hush immediately. Did you hear them too? Rumors say that just the rich people know all about it. Just do a G00GLE search for "BlueGoldHunt" all one word and click the first site that comes up.

  • Jimmy - 2011-12-22 10:03

    "African Culture" is there such a thing?

  • CALAMITYSA - 2011-12-22 18:10

    Never - corruption is an ANC and BLACK culture - it will never be neglected - as mr Zuma can personally confirm.

  • MaxOdin.SA - 2011-12-23 00:16

    Firstly I would like to thank Graziella for a reasonable debate, also I'd like to thank her because the more she speaks the more I realise what her agenda is (even though she may not know it herself). The more I speak to people like "G" the more I understand the true motive behind our leaders' inaction or deliberate foul ups. This is actually a war of communism versus capitalism. Unfortunately the people of south africa are all just pawns in this case. The words prawns did come to mind as I was writing that line but it's not far from the truth either. What's actually happening is the government has aligned itself with china in the economic race to become the ultimate super power. China is at war with the US and SA has chosen a side. We the people haven't chosen a side but our government has decided for us. Just think for a moment, Some of us see through the arguments about colonialism and western powers and see that there is something not right. But we don't quite know how to argue it because something isn't right. What we percieve as racism against the minorities in this country isn't actually that. There is a far more sinester plot afoot. "G" mentioned the world bank and IMF and that's when it hit me. This is about an economic war. That's why the economic trade between china and SA is such a big deal to the ANC. That's why they won't cheese the chinese off by allowing the dalai lama into SA. We (sa and china) are comrades engaged in active warfare.

      Graziella - 2011-12-23 07:11

      There's no economic war. The US does not like competition, they think that they have a god given right to be sucessful, they call it "American Exceptionalism". True SA has alligned itself with the other emerging economies which coincidentally were all at one stage of their recent history western colonies (BRICS), except Russia offcourse. This relationship is borne out of a shared experience where most of these countries have been at the receiving end of western domination and hegemony. Also remember that it was the Chinese and the Russians governments (and Scandanavian Europe) that were our biggest supporters during our struggle for freedom. We understand that these countries would have had their ulterior motives for granting this support. The IMF and the World Bank (western banks) have been disastrous to much of the developing world. Read a book by John Peet called the "Unholy Trinity, the IMF, World Bank and WTO". The West offers Africa a feudalist deal. Indeed, the economic policies of many African governments are no more than policies written for them by the IMF and World Bank. The result has been debt slavery and poverty. Trade between China is not a big deal to SA only.

      MaxOdin.SA - 2011-12-23 11:36

      You still haven't concvinced me otherwise. "We understand that these countries would have had their ulterior motives for granting this support." is basically acknowlegement that we are part of an economic war. The point is that those were not the only countries who supported the struggle. Most of the comrades didn't find refuge in china. They went to places like the UK where they got great educations and returned once apartheid was over to reshape the South African landscape. The truth is that the world held economic sanctions against the apartheid government. not just the emerging economies. The only slaves that exist these days are people who live in communist countries. The average chinese person is not as educated as the average person in the UK for instance. The job market in china works as follows, you have a job in which you put the wiring into a pinball machine, the next guy puts in the screens and the next puts in the paddles. None of the people who work the assembly line can put that pinball machine together by themselves so they are not economically free. They can't work for themselves because they don't have the knowledge to do it themselves. The government may be economically free but the people are enslaved to the government.