E-tolling unreasonable - Outa

2012-04-25 19:16

Pretoria - The e-tolling system is so unreasonable that no reasonable person would decide to put it into effect, the North Gauteng High Court heard on Wednesday.

The Opposition to Urban Tolling Alliance's (Outa) lawyer Alistair Franklin was presenting argument on why the system should be scrapped.

He said there were disproportionate costs.

"Collecting costs are exceeding the cost of improvement [of the road]," said Franklin.

Outa had a prima facie case, he said.

The minister of transport had to explain the justification for the "bizarre" decision.

According to the SA National Roads Agency Limited (Sanral), the tolls would cost about R21bn a year. However, the minister had denied the correctness of the figure, said Franklin.

"Decision-making powers have no explanation for it [the amount]."

He said Sanral had also not addressed the figures in its responding affidavit submitted to the court.

Outa was arguing that the introduction of the toll roads would be "practically impossible".

Sanral had estimated that one million vehicles would use the road a day and that 7% would be non-compliant.

Franklin said this meant that 70 000 people a day would be non-compliant.

"There was no indication how [Sanral] will deal with those who did not comply," he said.

The matter continues on Thursday.

  • Dave - 2012-04-25 19:25

    I hope the legal speak for unreasonable is effing bullsh1t?

      Lacrimose - 2012-04-25 20:28

      @Leonardb1 - agree fully but also : a) Toll administrators are appointed democratically b) Not 1c of tolls leaves the province, let alone the country c) 70% of (after admin) tolls levied go to maintenance and improvement of the roads in the city tolls serve d) remaining (after admin) 30% of tolls go to maint & improve of roads in the province tolls serve d) 'admin' is audited annually and publicised

      Dave - 2012-04-25 20:44

      Leonard, if you just saw the quality of workmanship, you would be appalled, in so many areas the surface is shifting so badly, if a sober man was asked to walk on the yellow line, he would be jailed for being drunk, that's just on point.

      Wim - 2012-04-25 20:47

      @Lacrimose: "Toll administrators are appointed democratically." Really? Do you realise your statement is an oxymoron? The remainder of your post is just pure bull sh...

      SaintBruce - 2012-04-25 22:17

      Wim - Lacrimose is adding to the 'wish' list on behalf of reasonable citizens as to the manner in which a toll road would come into existance. The irony is that the ANC don't go this route and are thus unreasonable. I had to read both entries twice to get the thread. Bottom line - to toll your citizens on their way to work is simply crazy. How did they ever get sold on this idea? Watching the appointed directors of Aurora answer straight questions with 'ah duh, dunno' responses on Carte Blanche gives me a clue as to how dumb they can be and still breathe! The apple doesn't fall far from the tree is an appropriate idiom.

      Jason - 2012-04-26 07:16

      @WIM you took the troll bait :)

      Paul - 2012-04-26 11:44

      @ Wim, now really now?? thought we (the informed news24 readers) were past that stage of insulting other people's choice of words,grama etc.. If you have nothing to say... you know mos.. :-) @ Leonardb1, I'm a born & bred gauteng inhabitant & all that Sanral has done is downgrade our infrastructure e.g. how the hell do you put Tar over a concrete highway??? Concrete is a weather resistant material, when the N1 was build the engineers choose concrete because of its durability, I'm 36yrs old & I struggle to recall when road repairs had to be done on the N1 between the Ennerdale Toll Plaza & Pretoria?? & I would imagine that's because of the durability of Concrete. But no, these Sanral morons choose to cover this durable concrete road with Tar, & now simply because of the volumes of road users daily the road needs resurfacing in less than a couple of weeks from finishing the existing surface...

      James - 2012-04-26 12:12

      If it comes into effect my plates will be lost forever.I will not pay scamral 1c for roads that i have paid for already. SCUM OF THE EARTH!!!

  • dave.leverton - 2012-04-25 19:29

    7% would be non-compliant ? Based on current e-tag sales that should probably be 70%.

      Zing - 2012-04-25 21:31

      Based on forum sentiment it should be 98%

  • zipho500 - 2012-04-25 19:31

    More like 70% will be non compliant!

  • Gieljam - 2012-04-25 19:37

    How any one in their right mind can go and put a toll system up in the busiest part of gauteng makes the mind boggle ? I mean thousands of locals travel up and down these roads everyday compulsory to make a living .Its not so much a leisure or vocational trip, its a necessity All adding to the already overfilled coffers of the government .They pay their license fees for what ? So that a fat cat system can employ kaders to issue them a license and all they get for that license money is a long wait in a queue and the rest goes for tax and salaries instead of road maintenance .a Crying shame to say the least ..

      SaintBruce - 2012-04-25 22:23

      A rough calculation by a business I know put the local area delivery costs up by R 100 000 per month as an operational cost to their business! Think the goods they deliver will get cheaper? Now their raw materials pay tolls up the N3 corridor and then are likely to pay even more just to get into Gauteng to the point of manufacture! A possible R 500 per day extra per load! How can such costs to a small business not impact the economy and cause more inflation? Remember, inflation means economic contraction with means LOST JOBS! The ANC, SANRAL, Treasury etc. are lying to you and I through their Sushi stained teeth!

      Keith - 2012-04-26 06:34

      SaintBruce, I am inclined to disbelieve those figures. Yes there will be extra costs, but the business you mention cannot be a 'small' one if those amounts are correct.

  • maseratifittipaldi - 2012-04-25 19:43

    Outa missed one very important point : efficiency. In the olden days one had to ride many miles, find a suitable gulley along the highway in which to hide and then sometimes wait many days for someone to arrive. One had to physically engage with the traveller and use suitable instruments, some of which demanded considerable skill or physical strength, to persuade the traveler to part with his money. Only after many months of gruelling labour and periods of intense thirst and hunger, could one consider going on a holiday. With the e-tolling system many people can enjoy a holiday far away, without lifting a finger. They can become very rich by just lazing in the sun. Anyone with a little bit of savvy will see that the Sanral scheme will achieve the same result as old time highway robbers, only many, many times more efficiently. Isn't this progress?

      Keith - 2012-04-26 06:36

      This is more than mere Highway Robbery, they rape you as well!

  • Corlen - 2012-04-25 19:46

    We must stay defiant, not only to show SANRAL that we will not fall for their bullying tactics, but also to send a clear message to other massive enterprises that they can not just do as they please and expect ordinary South Africans citizens to fit the bill every time.

      adam - 2012-04-26 06:19

      Sanral and government must take the knock. A "fender bender".

  • cmathibedi - 2012-04-25 19:49

    It looks like our government is giving people no option but forcing them to pay.But why only people of Gauteng.

      SaintBruce - 2012-04-25 22:25

      If they can dupe Gauteng, they can rape the rest of South Africa!

      Keith - 2012-04-26 06:41

      I'm frightened that when the repairs to the road from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein are finished it will be tolled, so, please Gautengers, hold fast, never surrender. The eyes, and purses, of the country are upon you; if the Fat Cats win we'll all have to pay, heavily.

  • Jacques - 2012-04-25 19:49

    How many e-tags has been sold? Government sources claim 300000 to 500000 but I heard on RSG that only a mere 20 000 was registered. So if RSG monitor is correct, 98% of road users will be non-compliant.

      Tefo Buccaneer Mokoena - 2012-04-25 20:48

      ..also remember: of those numbers registered, most are from big fleet companies like car rentals etc so dont be intimidated by the figures

      Mike - 2012-04-26 09:17

      And all state vehicles will have been registered too, that's a lot of vehicles.

  • Gieljam - 2012-04-25 19:49

    The way this tolgate system was handled smacks of some self enrichment and interests..Who are the real drivers of this project and what is all behind this .Its obvious that the minority who is perceived to have a lot of money were to be targeted but the issue boomeranged when the majority saw they were also going to pay.

  • Cassandra Olivier - 2012-04-25 19:50

    Why must we pay for something we all ready paying for?

  • George - 2012-04-25 19:51

    The judge must connect the dots and find prima facie evidence of corruption and order the immediate destruction of the illegal e-toll infrastructure to be despatched back overseas with Comical Allie and his coterie of thieves.

  • Bradley - 2012-04-25 19:53

    So SANRAL wont be making money for the roads but to ENRICH THEM SELVES !!!!!!

      SaintBruce - 2012-04-25 22:30

      Correct - it is a revenue stream - plain and simple. Just like the proposed Municipal Amendment Act that changes your rates and taxes into a revenue stream and has NOTHING to do with service delivery! Nice Government the ANC has turned out to be! It was inevitable as they were trained in Moscow how to have a 1% elite running the country into the ground while the masses are led to believe they 'belong' to the motherland. Their wall of stone fell so we just have to find a way to topple our wall of blubber!

      Keith - 2012-04-26 06:44

      If OUTA's facts are correct and the collection charges each year are more than the cost of the road then something stinks. It's criminal.

      Keith - 2012-04-26 06:45

      "Wall of Blubber" well said, must remember that phrase.

  • Peter - 2012-04-25 20:03

    You dont want to pay will pay higher taxes next year.Especially the "higher earners" because the poor needs to be protected. And going to boycott taxes.....there goes your assets. FINIS en KLAAR.Sorry, but it is a fact...where else will Gov get monies for to repay loan which they guaranteed.

      Dave - 2012-04-25 20:09

      And the poor are being protected now, come on man

      Chris - 2012-04-25 20:14

      Eish bra Peter, why haven't you been listening in class...????

      SaintBruce - 2012-04-25 22:33

      From the money they are Currently stealing every year with the nicely sanitised 'wasted' expenditure = theft of tax payer money. Finis and Klaar!! They don't intend for the loan to be repaid. Look closely, they want the 'loan' handed back Twenty times over! You are being bent over a barrel and prepared for a right royal rogering....and you don't see it!

      Keith - 2012-04-26 06:47

      By "poor" do you mean the ANC's voting fodder?

  • Burtfred - 2012-04-25 20:06

    F**k "Turnaround Nazir" and his crooked bunch of ANC sycophants at Sanral - that includes the lawyers that act on their behalf. They think they own our country - F**k them, they don't. The citizens do.

      Burtfred - 2012-04-25 21:27

      Tienie, you got that right!

  • Mark - 2012-04-25 20:06

    They should only collect on the one new lane they build, see how that gets used

  • Tumelo - 2012-04-25 20:24

    This is about profit making. Otherwise they would tell us when the loan money would be recovered, at which point the tolling would stop! This is going to exponentially increase Gauteng's inflation in the long term. Evidently not well thought and without consultation whatsoever.

  • Gregory - 2012-04-25 20:28

    Check out :-)

  • Sergio - 2012-04-25 20:36

    I have a very good suggestion for the toll roads : The additional lane or 2 or however many lanes they added , should be the only lanes to pay the toll fee. The road should be divided into 2 , 1 without the toll (which already existed ) and 1 with the toll (which was recently built). Like this people must decide if they want to sit in traffic or get to work quicker and pay the premium... any comments??

      Dave - 2012-04-25 20:50

      How do you control it though...the famous taxi bus lanes don't work

      Arp Liebenberg - 2012-04-25 21:44

      Damm good idea!

  • Flair Pixels - 2012-04-25 20:53

    SANRAL's slogan says it all "Creating wealth through infrastructure"

  • Mike - 2012-04-25 21:12

    Something fishy with this deal concluded AFTER winning the R6.2Billion Gauteng toll bid and then selling the company for R70Mil. Salahdin Yacoubi's (the foreigner from Kapsch who's the ETC CEO reference to having an ability to expose SA road users " law-enforcement measures" might allude to Moss Mashishi's "Pholosa Credit Solutions" and an objective that is bigger than we can other words they plan to create / pursue a strategy of building a huge debtors base with an objective to farm and milk SA road users at lib. This whole bloody thing smacks of racketeering and collusion between local tendrepeneurs and foreigners to pervert our local national procurement goodwill and is criminal considering the "slight-of-hand" and restated BEE equity and apparent "give-away" of local share-holding. This needs to be investigated as a matter of urgency in order to protect public interest. It is highly probable that contracts were solicited, acquired and entered into illegally and should be dealt with accordingly with prosecutions following. Has anyone in government considered the IMPLICATIONS of outsourcing the management of this E-Tag tolling scheme via "ETC" (a FOREIGN CONTROLLED company)and availing the personal / financial details and particulars of South African citizens to a foreign entity!

      Keith - 2012-04-26 06:51

      This sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, rather like the 'Third Force'. But if you're right it's diabolical.

  • cnduplessis - 2012-04-25 21:30

    I personally love how everyone is standing together on this! Usually on this \forum\ it's a racial bashing of each other. We can stand together as a nation-the dream that we all had in 1994 seems to be alive again. Together we can all make a difference and build this country! One step at a time against corupt policies! Next step....down with high fuel prices! (No reason Sasol should adjust to the $ price!)

      maseratifittipaldi - 2012-04-26 06:23

      Exactly, Claudia. Little by little the ANC stole from the people and gave to their buddies. Sasol, Airports, Harbours, Telkom, Post Office, Transnet, Iscor, Eskom... all these things originally paid for and maintained by the people. Today Sasol fuels are blended everywhere, and they make huge profits out of by-products. The rationale for parallel pricing has long since fallen away. South Africans should now be sharing in the benefits of the investments they made in the past, and one of these benefits should be much cheaper fuel from Sasol.

      dianetucks - 2012-04-26 11:12

      You are so right in your comment my friend, it's about time this Country took a stand.

  • Joseph - 2012-04-26 06:04

    ANC promised people's government. People are saying no to e-tolling, but ANC led government is pushing for e-tolling. My understanding was that people's government should listen to its people.

      Keith - 2012-04-26 06:56

      But the ANC are the people and you can see them getting fatter by the minute; the rest of us matter every few years when there is an election. We are merely the rabble, the great unwashed, the people who should go and eat cake.

  • Noluntu - 2012-04-26 06:29

    they must suck my toll-e. nxaaaaa

  • Warwick - 2012-04-26 06:43

    sanral, you can only push the people so far - now we push back!!!. Up yers sanral and your yes man Nazi Ali - chop. We are the ungovernable force.

      Keith - 2012-04-26 06:57

      We wish!

  • Loo - 2012-04-26 09:03

    Heres the problem I have with this Scumral dudes. 75% of the revenue will basically leave our shores to the joint Venture partner as well as administration OVERSEAS !! That means that are left with 25% hind tit revenue that stays in this country. It Effectively means (and I know Im simplifying it)that Govt invested 75% of the pension fund money overseas while the Tax payer fund 100% of the bill with NO external revenue being returned. That effectively means that MORE of our RSA money pool will simply leave the country and never be seen. Rem there is only 2% economic growth in RSA. We Already borrow 30% of our National budget. (28% shortfall already). The Government is going to have to print money soon (Like China did) in order to increase cash pool in RSA hands. That my dear friends should confirm that we are more communistic as we realize. RSA biggest problem is we don't export enough ,, It seems govt understood this wrong and in error decided export means exporting our money !!!!!!

  • Maki - 2012-04-26 11:17

    This is not Hollywood , is SA, we are poor . they should have added more lines on free ways and improve public Transport fools

  • zs5zk - 2012-04-26 12:43

    7% non compliant?????? you are very pessimistic, look at 70% non compliance. There is no infrastructure available in Gauteng to handle the consequences.No Staff, not enough courts with Staff and no Prisons to accommodate the defaulters. And further more, there is no Law forcing me to pay for using a Road that my tax has paid for, for the last 50 YEARS. It is a Phart in a Thunder storm and the only beneficiary`s is the AUSTRIAN Company,85% and the Government officials involved with the permission of these Toll Gates, these officials have either got Shares or they got one hell of a under the counter payout, non taxable. This all boils down to the Government Privatizing there Obligations, so do we still need a Government.?????????????????

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