Ex spook warns on Western spies

2012-07-26 22:19

Cape Town - Western intelligence services are "actively involved" in trying to infiltrate South Africa's government, former senior spy master Barry Gilder said on Thursday.

Responding to questions at a Cape Town Press Club luncheon, following the recent publication of his memoir, Songs and Secrets, he said this was done with the intention of influencing the South African government's decisions.

"On the international stage, and this is normal for most countries, there are countries who would want us to think and behave in ways that serve their interests. I'm not just talking about the big Western countries, but other countries too.

"And I can tell you, as a former spook, that the intelligence services of the big European/Western countries are very actively involved in trying to infiltrate our government and other parts of society, but in particular [they are] trying to influence it."

Gilder served as general manager and then director general of the SA Secret Service from 1995 to 1999, and from 2000 to 2003 as director general: operations for the National Intelligence Agency.

He did not name the countries, and declined to say any more on the matter.

"If you want to get more out of me, you'll have to torture me," he joked.

Hidden hand

Earlier, Gilder said there was "still a hidden hand" affecting South Africa's ability to transform itself into a more equitable nation.

Asked to explain, he said there were "specifics... of strange things that have happened" that one could point to, including the "hoax e-mail saga, the Browse 'Mole' Report, the Meiring Report, and a number [of] others that I recollect".

The "hoax e-mail saga" is a reference to alleged hoax e-mails implicating senior African National Congress members in a conspiracy against ANC president Jacob Zuma.

The Browse "Mole" Report, a product of the Directorate of Special Operations, also known as the Scorpions, was written in 2006. It was leaked the next year.

Among other things, it alleged that the Angolan intelligence establishment planned covertly to support Jacob Zuma, who at the time was deputy president, in his bid for the presidency.

The so-called Meiring Report was handed to then president Nelson Mandela in 1998, by former SA National Defence Force chief George Meiring. It alleged there were left-wing elements plotting a coup against the government.

Gilder said these had all indicated to the intelligence community at the time that "there are certainly people out there actively trying in some ways to create divisions or to create confusion to undermine our democracy in different ways".

He described this as a "plain historical reality", stemming from South Africa's divided past.

"27 April 1994, didn't mean those divisions suddenly dissolved. They continued, to some extent, and expressed themselves in different ways in society."

He added that it was not a "conspiratorial hidden hand" to which he was referring, but it was a reality that there were people in the country opposed to the current dispensation.

After serving on the national executive council of the National Union of SA Students in the early Seventies, Gilder went into exile in 1976.

He served with the ANC's intelligence division in various capacities until his return to South Africa in 1991.

Gilder retired from government service in 2007.

  • Mark - 2012-07-26 22:39

    I would think that is a real plus for us South Africans, given the damage this excuse for an administration is inflicting on us all.

  • boltonbarry - 2012-07-26 22:52

    Lets help them infiltrate

  • kevin.watson.7906 - 2012-07-26 23:15

    To justify his puerile existence he would have us believe that foreign governments want to infiltrate our Government. Well if the read the newspapers and the internet they will find out all they need to know, that we are governed by a bunch of kleptocrats. But then they already knew that look at the bribes paid in the arms deal. In fact they didn't need to spy on us to get that right.

  • millionwatts1 - 2012-07-26 23:21

    Just because I am paranoid it doesn't mean no one is following me.

      phillip.harry.79 - 2012-07-26 23:24

      ...i hear you!

  • jannie.beirowski - 2012-07-26 23:27

    Read the true story "Spy Catcher" by Peter Wright, former director of MI5 and you will have a mind swing if you do not believe this story. Read how Margeret Thatcher tried to prevent the printing of this book as it was exposing how their spies, and others were operating. This story may then cause a chill running down your spine.

      gail.evans.9275 - 2012-07-27 09:45

      Jannie, South Africans are half asleep. They are so busy still playing the "race"card, which suits these criminals plans, that they are oblivious to what is really going on. I also recommend John Pilger: The New rulers of The World And John Perkins: Confessions of an Economic Hitman:

  • brent.goldwyer - 2012-07-26 23:48

    R100.00 payment and you're in.............

      sean.lambie.3 - 2012-07-27 01:14

      So much , more like 20.00 :))

  • Chris - 2012-07-26 23:50

    Hahaha, what a chop. Typical ANC psyops operation...

  • sean.goldie.9 - 2012-07-26 23:54

    It would be really easy for our government officials to infiltrate other countries governments...after all they need cleaners and I believe there is a critical shortage of brainless manpower in those countries!!!

  • cliff.slabbert - 2012-07-27 00:25

    He is giving us the big spin to gag the press that's all. Its all baloney!

  • stanton.clarke - 2012-07-27 00:32

    Bloody agents.......

  • Billy - 2012-07-27 01:22

    lol! this guy looks like mr potato head. i wonder if the anc paid this man to say this, so they can misdirect their failures, or blame it one something els. i do notice the "Western & "Spies" words that they love to throw around so often. "evil white western spies" lol, i'll have a martini, shaken not stirred sorry i cant help but think this is some psychological game they are trying to play with their voters, to somehow regain support. if this is true, how can this man withhold information like this, that would affect our country that much.

  • lebo.ntsibolane - 2012-07-27 01:55

    Document 12.

      mark.schulz.796 - 2012-07-28 02:18

      Red Mercury...

  • Mark - 2012-07-27 02:05

    [Looks to the left.] There arrrre [licks lips] invisible forrrrces of darkness arrayed against this country of Seth Effrica that seek to destabilize and undermine our efforts of peace and prosperity. [Wagging finger] To them I state categorially that they shall neverrr succeed! Who's laughing?! [Wag finger forcefully and proceed to hit podium with index finger.] This are not a joke! Even now the west and east are engaging in an unholy alliance with the terrorists to infultrate our government.. blah blah blah. I knew SABC liked 1980's reruns, I was not aware that News24 had picked up on the trend!

  • ruan.lacock - 2012-07-27 02:29

    ...this is the kind of stuff that will make a great Sa movie.....lekker man !!

  • edna.errenrich - 2012-07-27 03:11

    I think the overseas agencies are concerned about our KFC fundamentalists

  • piet.boerie - 2012-07-27 04:38

    This is indeed true and Shaik, as pointed out by Wikileaks and his subsequest sacking, worked for the US. This comes hot on the heels of the Turkey prostitute scandal. Our main issue is not western spies but organised crime that has a huge influence over the spy system. They have infiltrated many levels of gevernment too. Barry does not mention he worked for Mossad. Tsk tsk tsk.

  • Gerda Malherbe - 2012-07-27 05:05

    Wow, drumroll, news flash ... there are powers that do not like the current dispensation. What an intelligent guy, no wonder he was the ANCs top spy. Whahahahahaha

  • henk.teboekhorst - 2012-07-27 05:35

    I guess it will be a case if stupidity meeting intelligence. I just wonder who will win

  • Vince.York - 2012-07-27 05:52

    It is an impossibility! No one in government knows what the next is doing or meant to do, so infiltration could only get as far as the initial introduction and immediately get incorrect information without going any further or deeper into insanity. The flaming townships around us are clear evidence for this statement.

  • ian.thomson.5851 - 2012-07-27 05:59


  • kevin.abraham.908 - 2012-07-27 06:08

    A load of crap. Can we please have the real news now?

  • Anthony C. Onwudiegwu - 2012-07-27 06:18

    Maybe true or faulse, some of us have clued this possibility out earlier and have set up a mechanism to counter or caution it. \r\nAfrian countries leadership has been infiltrated and taken over by Weatern leadership and interest long ago, leading to the manipation of African developmental ppolicies and plundering of the continents natural wealth.

      edna.errenrich - 2012-07-27 07:32

      African developmental policies? What? Dont make jokes so early man. African leadership is only interested in enriching themselves and plundering whatever wealth is left

      gail.evans.9275 - 2012-07-27 10:01

      Highly recommend "Crisis in the Congo" as a perfect example of this:

  • tw2066 - 2012-07-27 06:19

    Ha ha ... Western Intelligence as opposed to African stupidity...... Funny. And what's with this guys EARS!

  • tobydt - 2012-07-27 06:58

    The "Third forces" are coming out! Elections must be getting near.

  • darryl.scott.77770 - 2012-07-27 07:05

    All this clown has done is given the government another thing to blame their incompetence on. If they can't blame apartheid now - they will blame "western infiltration"

  • bruce.lewis.771 - 2012-07-27 07:11

    Intelligence oxymoron

  • clivegoss - 2012-07-27 07:12

    Why should they bother? For a small cash sum, it all will be revealed.

  • imtiaz.osman.5 - 2012-07-27 07:18

    Arms deal who's idea? Western influence. The reason behind it so to get all tax money that our country have made from them when they invested in our country out. So its a win win situation for them.

  • gregory.jurgens - 2012-07-27 07:19

    More white people, trying to steal from black people.

      derrico.heus - 2012-07-27 07:27

      Blame blame blame. Poor blacks, its the whites again? Yellow is the new problem for this country.the anc sold out to the chinese. They are flooding into africa. the anc are letting the chinks get far too close.

  • Boos - 2012-07-27 07:22

    Infiltrating the government can only make it better... haha

  • sisie.indola - 2012-07-27 07:26

    Why? Do they need a comedy show - we must be a laugh a minute.

  • andre.vandeventer.16 - 2012-07-27 07:27

    There is really nothing to infiltrate, only a lot of hot air!

  • jansteyn4 - 2012-07-27 07:33

    Barclays in cahoots with the Reserve bank. Their tools are the likes of Monsanto, Wallmart, Pharma and the media. They are rapidly stripping our wealth. Venal politico's are putting our great grandchildren and beyond into massive debt with projects like the Arms deal, Gautrain. Nuke power stations, Gautrain and World cup stadiums.Selling off assets like Sasol, Telkom and Iscor. All these deals hugely impoverish us whilst filling Zuma&co's pockets with Kickbacks. Defying a court order, Trever Manuel wont release details of the Barclays take over because it will show exactly haw much damage he willfully caused when he approved the scam. Tokyo has a huge share in Absa. Mark my words he will be the next president. The banksters say so. We dont need to be infiltrated, all it takes is bribes. We are not alone tho, this same scenario is playing out in almost every county in the world. Humanity through irredeemable debt in perpetual slavery. Exactly as planned. Wake up people, just being aware of this plan is not good enough. We have to start acting. Dont empower them by supporting their structures.

      philip.allebone - 2012-07-27 07:58

      I wish a big business would buy ESCOM, maybe it would start to actually make money and run effectively...

      gail.evans.9275 - 2012-07-27 09:22

      philip.allebone - Eskom IS a scam. The plan IS to run it down, the plan IS to increase our electricity bills. The end result after creating this PROBLEM is their SOLUTION- Nuclear Power Stations,and we, South Africans will be paying through our noses , as Jan says, in "irredeemable debt in perpetual slavery." Take a look at Greece, that is their plan for our future. Then take a look at Iceland, and see how they had the guts to tell these criminals to go to hell!

  • luvo.luvos - 2012-07-27 07:37

    Typical reaction one would expect from the yuppies judging by the comments on this forum. Its no secret that there are people who are standing in the way of this country gaining equality in all spheres. Should equality be gained it would deprive the white person of the godly status they currently enjoy over black people. Just waiting for the oxymoronic replies to this post.

      mulzar - 2012-07-27 08:43

      Me 1st! Well it is "It's"... Then "godly status" - there is a oxyMORONic statement if I have ever seen one. See what I did there?

      jacque.raymer - 2012-07-27 08:44

      only people standing in the way of equality is the ANC. and im not just speaking about colour, they leave their own people to starve and live uneducated. where is the equality in that ?

  • louiseroger.higham - 2012-07-27 07:40

    What a load of hog wash.

  • philip.allebone - 2012-07-27 07:54

    I recall the intelligence branch of the army tracking CIA agents back in the day, so this is no supprise at all.

      gail.evans.9275 - 2012-07-27 10:03

      they should have taken them out while they had the chance!

  • almeleh - 2012-07-27 08:22

    The ANC's inteligence division????????????????????????????

      rude.awakning - 2012-07-27 10:08

      strange.... But....true!

  • gail.evans.9275 - 2012-07-27 09:04

    Great article. At last someone has said this, and a man with credibility and experience. Other forms of infiltration are the latest Libor scandal and the role that ABSA bank has had in the theft of money from this country. Sadly, such people as Ramos, Manuel and Tokyo are involved. Genetically modified seeds, that they are taking away our ability to produce food for ourselves and enslaving us into a corporate food system that is patenting all seeds, in fact all life forms, where we will not only be forced to buy from these companies, but will be trapped in a food slavery system. All owned by Western Corporates. The E Toll, that would line the pockets of Western investors for years to come, long after the freeway had been bought and paid for. The proposed Fracking in the Karoo, in spite of the fact that evidence world wide proves that it is detrimental to the health and well being of those living in the area and poisons the ground water. The proposed Nuclear Power Stations, where again like the E Toll, will rape the South African tax payer and line the pockets of Western bankers, when better alternatives are available, like solar which will stimulate small business rather than large offshore Corporates. And the drug industry, a dark and shady world where Western Corporate banks like HSBC are involved in money laundering cocaine sales from Mexico and Heroin from Afghanistan. Southern Africa is vulnerable to this industry, run by Corporate Bankers and the CIA.

      philip.allebone - 2012-07-27 09:13

      And that is just the stuff you KNOW about...

  • gail.evans.9275 - 2012-07-27 09:14

    Also complicit are NGOs, who in many cases work for these "spy"industries and are directly or covertly involved in creating social discord between different groups. For example: "On Saturday, however, the New York Times reported that the alleged massacre at Tremseh was basically a scam perpetuated by the Syrian National Council, the CIA spawned terrorist council run by the Western intelligence asset the Muslim Brotherhood." I have often wondered if the "Kill the boer, kill the farmer"is CIA inspired, to chase our farmers off the land and then replace them with "Western Corporate"farming under the auspices of investment and job creation, and total Genetically Modified food production.

      rude.awakning - 2012-07-27 09:50

      food for thought! - 2012-07-28 09:05

      As n SA boertjie living in the US for the past 20 years, I have seen the picture from this side. It started to clear for me when I saw bld 7 (9/11) drop like a stone. It was, for me, the wake up call, the give away - the exposure of the Global cabal of criminals. Be assured that Southern Africa also in the cross hairs of the western criminal gang(s), After Syria, Africa is to be conquered and sucked dry of minerals & resources all the while reducing indigenous populations (see Agenda 21 and eugenics - in motion as we speak). Please be aware and wake the neighbor! Its real and in motion. Gilder has it sorta right..

  • riotousr - 2012-07-27 09:22

    ""there are certainly people out there actively trying in some ways to create divisions or to create confusion to undermine our democracy in different ways"." I could not have put it better myself. The purported factions in the ANC came about because of vulnerable and gullible minds that existed when report of division first surfaced. Maturity and integrity among the current ANC is shallow enough that one does not need to be a genius with an IQ of 250 for their members to start fighting amongst each other. I have always believed in the existence of the third force and other sinister elements that are bent on seeing Nelson Mandela's idealised South Africa fail. I swear I am not one of them. We are not a deep thinking society but rather quick to act/react.

      gail.evans.9275 - 2012-07-27 09:53

      I do not think it has ANYTHING to do with the colour of our skin. I think it has EVERYTHING to do with money, eliminating the middle class and creating a Feudal System of Royalty being the Multi Corporates and their banks, and the peasants............. the rest of us. The people who have made fun of this man are all white. They cannot see beyond the colour code. And this will be to their detriment.

  • flysouth - 2012-07-27 09:28

    The man is an idiot who will not admit that his examples of 'foreign infiltration' are simply examples of ANC infighting and conspiracies in the normal style of ANC politicians. - 2012-07-28 09:09

      flysouth - take heed, those words are on target! your greatest threat is when your gov is taken over by int, bankster criminals. This has already happened in the USA.

  • tom.khoza.3 - 2012-07-27 09:51

    hahahaha! It must suck to live in a country where you hate your government so much. Bloody agents get out! * Malema voice* LOL

  • rude.awakning - 2012-07-27 10:02

    they are not trying to infiltrate SA Gov, they are already here and on many fronts! How do we know if they were not behind the boeremag attempt and been financing it, it certainly fits their MO.

      gail.evans.9275 - 2012-07-27 10:09

      I strongly suspect this as well. A lot of South African ex defense force are working for Africom in North Africa, protecting USA interests. I do believe they have sold their souls to the devil, and instead of regaining the "Nazi" dominance in this country will in fact find they will have no country, it will belong to Rockerfeller, Soros, Rothschild, Gates and Buffet.

  • tom.khoza.3 - 2012-07-27 10:03

    We treat you South African Government haters like water drops rolling off a ducks back...Irrelevant and insignificant... - 2012-07-28 09:14

      Tom, your not on page - this is to preserve the SA gov for the people of SA. Once your gov gets infiltrated by western criminal gangs you have a Libya & Syria situation looming. Forget skin color FGS! Your focus needs redirected to your real enemy. They are on their way. They will infiltrate the management of the country, whip up divisions based on skin, gay rights, abortions, whatever, and weaken you all until you are all under their tight control. This is in process in the USA right now. Be aware..

  • comurray - 2012-07-27 12:23

    Here we go again, the so called 3rd force. Just something else to blame for their continuous f***ups. Do the ruling party think that we are all as stupid as they are??

      rude.awakning - 2012-07-27 19:07

      No, only You!

  • gail.evans.9275 - 2012-07-27 13:02

    And while we are on this subject, which genius has got shares in this lot? Or, was paid off? Or was threatened with unleashing mind control agents provocateur causing a race war if this agreement was not signed? "Press Release from ACB: 'Agent Orange' tainted GM maize given green light in SA The African Centre for Biosafety (ACB) is deeply dismayed and shocked that the GMO decision-making body has given the green light for the importation of Dow Chemical's highly controversial 2,4-D tolerant GM maize (variety DAS 40278-9) into South Africa, where it will be used as food. The variety has yet to be approved in the US, where it continues to face vociferous opposition by civil society groups. 2,4-D was one of two active ingredients in the infamous chemical weapon, 'Agent Orange', used to devastating effect during the Vietnam war. Exposure to 2,4-D has been linked to non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a cancer of the white blood cells. Epidemiologists from the National Cancer Institute in the USA regard this link as the strongest association yet found between a pesticide and a disease. Dozens of human and animal studies have shown 2,4-D to cause birth defects, neurological damage, and interference with reproductive function. The use of 2,4-D in Sweden, Norway and Denmark is banned because of these well publicised links."

  • simphiwe.tladi - 2012-07-27 19:35

    The education kids,especially black kids proves this,it is poor so as to reverse time and bring the past back:WHITE SUPERIOTY...They are taught Evolution,and taught that genetically modified foods are good and the Western history instead of theirs.The SA military must hunt CIA agents down before it is too late since the US sees that it now loses to China.

  • simphiwe.tladi - 2012-07-27 19:36

    The education kids,especially black kids proves this,it is poor so as to reverse time and bring the past back:WHITE SUPERIOTY...They are taught Evolution,and taught that genetically modified foods are good and the Western history instead of theirs.The SA military must hunt CIA agents down before it is too late since the US sees that it now loses to China.

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