The president is caught in a policy trap, says Daniel Silke.
a few tstorms. Morning clouds. Mild.
Police Minister Nathi Nhleko fielded many tough questions at the special ad hoc Parliamentary committee on Nkandla. Catch all the updates from the morning session as it unfolded.
...And chairperson Cedric Frolick has called for a lunch break.
We will be closing the Live Update shortly. Follow News24 for all updates from the sitting of the ad hoc committee...
With regards to the
“It is elevated
for some reason or the other and experts determined that," Nhleko says.
extension of the kraal, the question that arises is: suppose that is what he
asked for? Why then has this extension not taken place?”
Nhleko answers question
of relying and re-hashing reports.
"In the review of the literature, there is no
way you are going to look at other documents and not look at what the public
protector said and what the SIU said," he says to Breytenbach.
"I wouldn't agree with your view that there has been re-hashing."
“In your previous
job, I am sure you were supervising people and those very same people, when
they wanted things to be done in a certain way; they say my supervisor needs
that. When the SIU makes this observation I have no qualms with it. I agree
Breytenbach... you also raised the issue of the experts' reports. You have the
file I submitted. You also have the written narration by a cultural expert for
example. Also a narration by the fire expert people in terms of what they think
after they have assessed the situation. There is absolutely no problem in
making that available.”
was to report on his comments and actions on report within 14 days. Of significance is the mere fact that the minister
of police had to be instructed by a resolution of Parliament. There can be all
sorts of interpretations about Linde's role.
“The matter was
investigated by SIU and interviewed Linde. What he says is on record.”
And the sitting
restarts with the police minister answering MP's questions...
Nhleko: “Let me
start with experts. The public protector’s report, page 442, I think, focuses
on remedial action. In there she states in article 11.1 that the president is
to take steps with assistance of national treasury and the Saps to determine
costs that do not relate to security.
“It is not the
minister of police's choice to confine himself. It is what the public protector
has pointed out for example.”
“To blame the
president for something he doesn't know is uncalled for.
“She raises the
point that drugs were allegedly found in Maimane's church. If Honourable chair,
if we want to believe that Maimane knew about those drugs, then that would
create a problem. Some people go and plant things in your homestead and then
others will say that you are accountable. That is problematic.”
“Why is the
family kraal not extended if that was the request that the president had?
Minister please respond to that. On the soil retention wall, Honourable Maimane...
you always claim you are from Soweto. I am sure you would know better what an
amphitheatre or entertainment area looks like.”
were that the public protector is not a security expert so there is no way she
could have said if something is or is not a security feature.
committee also acknowledged we were not security experts.”
The ANC's Dorris
Dlakude gets a turn to speak...
“We are not opening or conducting an investigation but dealing with
“I want to be
upfront chair and say that all of us, after we came from Nkandla, we were
saying the report of the minister of police was actually an eye-opener and now
today it can.
“Today it can’t
be credible? I find that opportunistic.
“Nothing that we
found there was not in the police minister's report,” she concludes.
telling us about a fire pool which is in actual fact a swimming pool. It is a
pity you were not part of our meeting in Pietermaritzburg," says Mahambehlala.
“All of us as
committee members unanimously agreed that is not a fire pool. It is a swimming
pool which is used as a reliable water resource in the case of any fire that
“Hence there were
hosepipes and a demonstration. My understanding of a swimming pool meant for
entertainment is that it must have chlorine, it must be clean and what have
“What we saw
there, no one could swim in it. It had no chlorine. To come here and say there
is an entertainment area there, we don't see any such area there.
“There are no
walls for privacy. We should not come here and create an impression because we
see all these cameras when we all of were in Nkandla and saw exactly what
“If you want your
report to carry any credibility and for us to accept it, we need to verify what
you have said with the public protector and the head of the SIU report.
“I find it
extraordinarily hard that that side of the house has not called these individuals.
I find it very telling, transparent and quite astonishing.
“I would like
your comment on that.”
greatest respect, both of you rely on the president for your jobs and to a
certain degree are controllable.
“Two people who
should be here are the public protector and the head of the SIU report. They
have security of tenure and they are harder to get rid of. They have more
“I asked you in Pietermaritzburg
and I’m not sure I made myself clear...
“I asked if you
would make available the reports of the experts upon whom you relied in your
Two reasons: a) “Are
they in fact experts? There is nothing here to suggest that any of these people
b) “You refer to
other experts whose reports I don't find and they are the ones I have more trouble
with eg. The cultural expert.”
Let's start with
Linde: "You say that no action has been taken against him. As it is, he is
sitting at his office in Silverton and has two years to go to pension. But a
senior superintendent, I cannot agree with you, is not a junior official...he
is in fact a full Colonel.
“You and I both
know that Mr Linde didn't write this letter. The divisional commissioner of
supply chain management did. Mr Linde is just the "poor fool who does the
signing and writing.
“So this picture
you sketch about him being a junior official is not quite true.”
“Why would the department of Public Works
find it necessary to build 21 houses for police and the army at that exact
“You indicated to us minister that 21
houses are 1.1km away from president's house. If you go as crow flies, it is
300m away. Why so close?
"We all know why. Let's not fool
ourselves. Obviously because the president stays adjacent to that and it is
there to serve the president.”
"Why not listen to Mr Linde? Why on
earth would you go around misusing the president's name? Why would you do that?
What benefit is there to you? Don't you want to hear what Mr Linde has to
say?" says Pieter Mulder.
Mulder says the committee cannot go around
hanging, judging and sentencing people without first having listened to them.
Pieter Mulder of the Freedom Front Plus now
pool cannot be found in the dictionary.
“We need to stop referring to the pool as a
fire pool. What fire pool is made in that shape?
“It is a swimming pool.”
Cedric Frolick says #Zuma is still not safe, secure or comfortable at #Nkandla. After we spent R246m. Even our corruption is inefficient.— Justice Malala (@justicemalala) July 23, 2015
Cedric Frolick says #Zuma is still not safe, secure or comfortable at #Nkandla. After we spent R246m. Even our corruption is inefficient.
"On last two points of Mr Singh’s question,
regarding the architect’s appointment and the neglect of Nkandla, the Public
Works Minister will talk to such issues."
Minister Nhleko now finishes answers to first round of questions...
Chairperson Frolick now opens the floor up for questions for Public Works minister Thulas Nxesi.
But what is clear from the SIU report,
Nhleko continues, is that Linde invented this and admitted to this.
“Unless Honourable Maimane, you want to suggest
that this Linde was subjected to some horrific type of pressure, to turn around
and say he invented this...”
"The issue of superintendent Linde's
delegated powers. I think that matter, for me it's not possible to give you
overall delegation framework sitting here.
"But I think it's a matter that will
become clearer as there are further follow-ups."
Maimane raises point of order but MPs mumble
Minister Nhleko is allowed to carry on.
Maimane wanted a point of clarity, but Nhleko
“There is this tendency in civil service of
name-dropping. If I want certain things to be done in a particular way, it is a
"I find it quite intriguing Honourable
Maimane that regardless, if your name has been used, it is immaterial that
indeed you did say so or you did not say so. I find that problematic."
Minister Nhleko was referring to the way in which people refer to the president.
Nhleko now bemoans how the President's name is used. #Nkandla— Lester Kiewit (@lesterkk) July 29, 2015
Nhleko now bemoans how the President's name is used. #Nkandla
Nhleko now addresses Maimane...
“You spoke about issues. All that we made available
to yourselves as members of the committee is where is the issue of the fire
pool come from. It doesn't arise now.
only discrepancy is that at the level of execution and construction of such a
fire pool, instead of having that 138kl capacity, it is said that the architect
proceeded with a pool of 175kl. That is the only discrepancy.
"Is it a security feature? Yes, it is
a security feature in terms of how it was considered."
“Regarding the discussion between Zuma and Madonsela
as highlighted in her report.
“We shouldn't forget that the president
compiled a report reacting to the Public Protector's report and the discussions
here in Parliament which basically refute or dispute the existence of such a
“It is important that that is what we know
and what essentially has got to be followed. A discussion between two people is
something we don't know.
“What we know is a report filed by the
president with parliament in which he refutes the discussions.”
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