News24

Pagans lay complaint against Creecy

2013-03-21 14:11

Johannesburg - The SA Pagan Rights Alliance (Sapra) is laying a hate speech complaint against Gauteng education MEC Barbara Creecy, according to a report on Thursday.

The Citizen newspaper reported that pagans all over South Africa had voiced their disapproval of a statement Creecy made on Monday.

"The practitioners from faith-based organisations are developing an anti-harmful religious practice strategy to guide and protect learners from spiritual attacks and abuse," she said at a press briefing.

The "harmful practices" included Satanism and occultism.

She was speaking at a signing ceremony with religious groups, to develop an "anti-harmful" religious strategy in schools.

"The practitioners from faith-based organisations are developing an anti-harmful religious practice strategy to guide and protect learners from spiritual attacks and abuse," she said.

Sapra spokesperson Damon Leff told the paper the MEC's statement was hate speech and they would complain to the SA Human Rights Commission.

"The MEC's statements regarding 'occultism' and 'Satanism' constitute hate speech against religious minorities who have nothing to do with the recent cases of alleged Satanic activity."

Octarine Valur of the SA Vampyre Alliance said Creecy's statement was creating hostility towards religious minorities.

"This encourages prejudice and intolerance towards these groups, and may even contribute to violence against those whose dignity and right to religious freedom is being made out to be a criminal offence."

Comments
  • Godfrey Welman - 2013-03-21 14:27

    When you don't stand for something, you will fall for every thing.

      Stewart Croucamp - 2013-03-21 14:33

      Hit the nail on the head.

      Phae Rayden - 2013-03-21 15:13

      Rubbish, the more you learn the more you realise how little you know. Same applies to the religious dogma you seem to be suggesting will keep people on the 'right' path.

  • Erna Westdyk - 2013-03-21 14:43

    SA Vampyre Alliance - you gotta be kidding me!

      Alexander Kiss - 2013-03-22 07:24

      Its real and you may be thinking of movie vampires when you were typing that.

  • Rodney Bentley - 2013-03-21 14:43

    But they are quick to jump on the cart when it comes to persecuting Christians. It seems they don't have 'rights'

      Gavin Ray - 2013-03-21 15:23

      Seriously Rodney? How are you being persecuted... poor Christian?

      StephanA - 2013-03-21 15:42

      Ok Rodney, give us one example of when and where a christian was persecuted by a pagan. Just one example will do...

      Christopher Blackwell - 2013-03-21 23:36

      Now just where are Pagans jumping on Christians? No we do say that Christian have no right to attack other religions. many Christian never do that and we respect them. But we will not be bullied by anyone, any more than any Christian would allow themselves to be bullied.

      SharksterII - 2013-03-22 11:42

      Does the persecuation by Nero ring a bell. He was a pagan...

      DamnTheMan - 2013-03-23 14:08

      What happened after Nero ShartShyte. The inquisition, witch hunts, crusades ... Pot meet kettle ... You people ...

  • Ron Dos - 2013-03-21 14:44

    Pagan - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary 1 : heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome) 2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

  • erasmufj - 2013-03-21 14:57

    I can't imagine that, never even heard of these associations. Hostility, come on..

  • Rodney Bentley - 2013-03-21 14:58

    This is laughable. They behave like spoiled brats now that things don't go their way. They are in for a huge shock one day, I read a documentary where even Anton La Vay begged for mercy by Jesus when he died. It's on You Tube also, if you don't believe me.

      AquilaKaHecate - 2013-03-21 15:16

      Waaahaahaha...YouTube being the ultimate authority I suppose. Or is it...Obvious Troll is Obvious? Hmmm.

      SarcasticHeathen - 2013-03-21 20:54

      Jees, next he's going to be saying Hitchens recanted on his death-bed.

      Christopher Blackwell - 2013-03-21 23:40

      The fact that something is on the internet does not make it true, You Tube included. It is always so much fun watching people playing god in judging others. The Bible specifically says not to do that and says that you will be judged as harshly as you judge others.

  • john.thelps - 2013-03-21 15:05

    Shame..

      Antoinette Keyser - 2013-03-22 02:25

      Ke?

  • Exsp Osure - 2013-03-21 15:08

    Seriously? Vampyre?

      Alexander Kiss - 2013-03-22 07:27

      I'm impressed that you know the original English spelling for Vampire, before Stoker's Dracula became famous. Any way yes they are real and they are around. their practices have been around since Summeria. Maybe I should put up a site somewhere to enlighten you all about the subject.

  • Helen Riding - 2013-03-21 15:22

    Human Rights Day clearly means nothing to those of you scoffing at religions you know nothing about, and the right to believe whatever we choose. Shame on you.

  • roxy.mcwilliams - 2013-03-21 15:24

    Satanism is not pagan. Pagan religions (note plural) are prechristian. And are generally known for a love for nature and animals. that's common knowledge. So whats it got to do with the Pagan Rights Association?

      TSR01 - 2013-03-21 15:32

      The extended implied blanket term of "occultists", by definition of which it can easily be assumed to apply to adherents of Pagan religious or spiritual paths. Blurring the lines between what is and is not Pagan / Satanism is all well and good for those ignorant of the fact, but to all others it sits in the same neat package, which is why it is of concern to religious minorities that such libelous and discriminatory remarks would be issued by MEC Barbara Creecy. And religious minorities are being made a mockery of for standing up for their rights on Human Rights Day? Have the ignorant masses no shame?

      Medb - 2013-03-21 15:36

      Roxy, Barbara Creecy's statements and MoU initiative single out occult beliefs and practices as"harmful". Many Pagan paths incorporate occult beliefs, practices and philosophies into their theology; so this does concern the rights of Pagans in SA.

      damonleff - 2013-03-21 15:40

      SAPRA does not identify Satanism as a Pagan religion, as indeed most Satanists do not identify themselves as Pagans. Of course there are exceptions to this rule when people blend or merge aspects of different faiths together to form their own personal religion. SAPRA has responded to this case because Satanism is not the only focus of prejudice in MEC Creecy's public statement; Occultism will also be targeted. Witchcraft does fall under the banner of Occultism, as do all religio-magical faith groups, including Wicca. We're taking a stand on principle, and that principle is a confirmation of the constitutional protection of religious freedom, for all citizens equally.

  • Mphotant Thelejane - 2013-03-21 15:26

    Pagan's rights, SA Vampire Alliance (hayi its tough).

      DamnTheMan - 2013-03-23 11:22

      Its tougher when your narrow minded ...

  • roxy.mcwilliams - 2013-03-21 15:29

    Why don't you people read a book or look up on google about these religions before you form a high and mighty opinion on how its ridiculous, if you can't even distinguish that paganism and satanism are two different religions, 2000 or so years apart, with completely different views and rituals. You need to be jailing murderers not 'pagans'.

      damonleff - 2013-03-21 15:40

      SAPRA does not identify Satanism as a Pagan religion, as indeed most Satanists do not identify themselves as Pagans. Of course there are exceptions to this rule when people blend or merge aspects of different faiths together to form their own personal religion. SAPRA has responded to this case because Satanism is not the only focus of prejudice in MEC Creecy's public statement; Occultism will also be targeted. Witchcraft does fall under the banner of Occultism, as do all religio-magical faith groups, including Wicca. We're taking a stand on principle, and that principle is a confirmation of the constitutional protection of religious freedom, for all citizens equally.

      Wild Moon Luna - 2013-03-21 16:37

      Lego fanum!

      ingwe - 2013-03-21 17:02

      Satan a product or offshoot of the Abrahamic religions is now used as an excuse to withhold the rights of those who do not follow the same Abrahamic faiths. Ironic or what?

  • Paulson Meziri - 2013-03-21 15:34

    what will be expecting is when armed robbers

  • alananthonygreen - 2013-03-21 15:53

    Watch Zeitgeist and then let's chat more about it.

      Robert Coughlan - 2013-03-21 16:24

      Yes, it's a much safer bet to go with a cobbled-together collection of fables, concocted by bronze-age goat-herders. Makes sense.....not. “..and for the first 96,000 years of this experience, heaven watches with folded arms, us go through all of this, with indifference, without pity, and then around 4,000 years ago decides ‘Gee, it's time to intervene’". And the best way of doing that would probably be around Bronze Age middle east, making appearances to stupefy illiterate peasants , which could then be passed on, the news would get to China around 1000 years after that” (Hitchens, Boteach debate)

      Allan Liddle - 2013-03-21 16:58

      @Robert Coughlan: Where are you coming from? Did I mention any of what you are referring to? You come across quite prejudiced.

      Robert Coughlan - 2013-03-22 10:26

      @ Alan Liddle - whther you mentioned the bible or not is immaterial. It was simply to show that basing one's worldview on a book like the bible, which has been shown to contain many more half-truths, untruths and blatant lies than the zeitgeist movie is even more ridiculous. And your comment was facetious and derisive? Of course not Allan. The zeitgeist movie is no masterpiece but it raises interesting points. http://www.project-reason.org/bibleContra_big.pdf

  • Theresa Pickering - 2013-03-21 15:54

    U go Barbara! Its about time we got God back in our schools!!

      AquilaKaHecate - 2013-03-21 15:59

      Yes indeed - he seems to need to finish his Matric.

      damonleff - 2013-03-21 16:00

      Did someone evict God from schools? Or are you just looking for an absence of religious diversity in schools?

      Octarine Val Valur - 2013-03-21 16:22

      Having Christian schools and schools that force Christianity down our children's throats is also unconstitutional - but imagine how the Christian fundamentalists would perform should Pagans open a Pagan school for their own children?

      Whoo Carez - 2013-03-21 16:27

      Billionaire pastors, hungry followers!!!!!!!.

      Patrick Saunders - 2013-03-21 17:00

      yup, theresa, get god out of church and back into schools where he belongs. I think the last time we did that in sa, the ngk were running the show. Look how well that turned out.

      Gemma van der Merwe - 2013-03-21 17:14

      All gods? Or just the one you worship?

      Erna Westdyk - 2013-03-21 17:24

      You don't need god in order to know right from wrong.

      SarcasticHeathen - 2013-03-21 21:02

      Which god? Zeus? Krishna? Kami? How will you justify discriminating against Odin,Ra and Ometotl by only promoting YHWH?

      Christopher Blackwell - 2013-03-21 23:58

      Please show me anywhere that God is kept of out school. Any kid can still pray to whatever god they believe in. all that has stopped is teachers forcing their personal religion on their students.

      Tanya Davis - 2013-04-16 11:30

      I am a Pagan and a teacher, would you like me teaching my religious views to your child? Or would you prefer that i keep my religious views out of the classroom and leave religious teaching to you the parent?

  • Neil Alan White - 2013-03-21 15:57

    Never heard of any of these organizations before lol

      damonleff - 2013-03-21 16:03

      Now you have.

      Christopher Blackwell - 2013-03-22 00:00

      Strange way over in the United States, in Europe and elsewhere people are well aware of these organizations. Damon has been interviewed in several countries and many times in South Africa. I am so sorry that you are so isolated from things going on in your country.

  • Antoinette Morgan - 2013-03-21 16:35

    The Christian Church is rife with paganism, so why do they complain?

      SarcasticHeathen - 2013-03-21 21:09

      Agreed, How is symbolic worship of the earth through rituals any different from the ritualistic drinking of symbolic blood, and eating of symbolic flesh practiced in communion(nagmaal) all across the country?

  • Patrick Saunders - 2013-03-21 16:56

    i hope they included catholicism on that list of harmful religious practices.

  • Vincenzo Catania - 2013-03-21 17:20

    Worshiping the devil is now going to be an open practice?! May this renew the faith in everyone who trusts and fears their God - the God of love and truth.

      ingwe - 2013-03-21 17:47

      The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Dawkins, Richard

      SarcasticHeathen - 2013-03-21 21:10

      How is paganism the worship of biblical Satan?

      Christopher Blackwell - 2013-03-22 00:04

      Whom are you talking about as none of the religions mentioned worship the Christian devil. That kind of Devil Worship has been invented by the churches themselves.

      Antoinette Keyser - 2013-03-22 01:30

      @ Ingwe: I couldn't have thought of a better definition of the OT God even if I tried... which is exactly the reason why I stopped following him years ago! :)

      Christopher Blackwell - 2013-03-22 19:11

      Care to show me anyone worshiping the Christian Devil. Note that the jews never had one. You really should check your facts before you give your opinion. Now what we have is the imagination of the Christians who invented an imaginary Devil Worship and then when unruly teenagers copy what the Christians told them was the proper way of worshiping the Devil, the Christians say see we told you so. But the teenagers were following what the Christians told them was the proper way to worship the Devil.

  • Vincenzo Catania - 2013-03-21 17:23

    Open devil worship? I would rather have em doing it secretly in a dark corner of the earth like since the beginning of time. This is a true sign of the end time nearing. I hope it renews faith in God fearing people. The God of love

      damonleff - 2013-03-21 18:03

      Vincenzo, Your own freedom to practice your religion is given to all South Africans equally.

      SarcasticHeathen - 2013-03-21 21:10

      All hail the god of love, Aphrodite!!!

      Christopher Blackwell - 2013-03-22 00:06

      I have to wonder why anyone would worship a god that they are deathly afraid of? Strange but I have no fear of my creator, why do you?

      Antoinette Keyser - 2013-03-22 01:41

      Vincenzo: you are free to worship your god... as are we, and as are Satanists as well. If you want to hang a cob of corn from the ceiling of your living room and worship that, you are also free to do so. In case you have forgotten: "Freedom of Religion" is a basic human right in this country. Just remember: proselytizing is not part of your right to freedom of religion as it will infringe on my right to freedom of religion. So stop calling your god "the" god of love. The Goddess I serve is the personification of "Love and Light" to me.

  • Michael Ndalama Mwale - 2013-03-21 17:23

    Interesting story which shows that religion is not just about a belief in God about any belief in the spiritual.

  • Caron Struthers - 2013-03-21 17:27

    Christians slaughter millions of animals and are responsible for many wars.

  • Caron Struthers - 2013-03-21 17:33

    Look at all the Christians who slaughter millions of animals. Many Wiccans are vegetarian and don't harm animals. So why are they always frowned upon by Christians?

  • Avalon Dragonrider - 2013-03-21 18:11

    Oh such interesting reading from "muggles". If you know nothing about Paganism then please dont "preach" what has been "preached" to you from pulpits and by fanatical christians. I was a "christian" for 40 yrs B4 I decided the hypocrisy surrounding me was not what I wanted 2B part of & as I was already a borderline pagan I gravitated towards what I felt comfortable & @ home with. I dont believe in Satan, he does belong, for all sense & purpose, in the Bible, with the christians. It amazes me that all these so called christians do not follow the teachings of Christ. I am thankful that my parents never ever threatened me with the "devil will come & get you if you R bad" blah yada. Instead, as christians, they instilled in me a respect 4 all; black/white/all other religions/ a person’s sexual preference & the like. Now, they were truly spiritual and non judgemental. I find some comments on this feed quite amusing as well, from previously disadvantaged persons, who some 19 years ago didn’t have freedom 2 B themselves at all; yet now want 2 deny a minority (be it religious) freedom 2 B themselves & not B persecuted. In my 8 years as Pagan I have never sacrificed or harmed any creature at all. We believe in sanctity of ALL life. Strange that fingers get pointed at us yet some Christian religions regularly “drink the blood & eat the body” of the man they purport 2 B their saviour.First take the log out of your own blind eyes before trying to take the splinter out of mine.

  • David Christianson - 2013-03-21 18:37

    Goodness! The poor pagans!

  • Nico de Jongh - 2013-03-21 19:00

    Believe, faith, trust, confidence, persuasion, credence, credit, creed, conviction, opinion, religion, reliance are all synonymous a dynamic intuitive conviction in the inner being of the truth of supersensible things which cannot be proved by any physical evidence but which are a subject of experience; the soul's witness to something not yet manifested, achieved or realized, but which yet the Observer within us feels to be ... Not enough space on the web available to describe the vastness of the material universe which is a mere speck compared to the Spiritual Universe of indescribable Love Beauty and Wisdom.... the rest you can read in The Path of The Masters by Dr. Julian P Johnson.. a very worthy view to ponder.

  • Jacques De Villiers - 2013-03-21 19:06

    Funny how everyone has to go and defend their faith in Satan, if jesus and God is such liars why do you bother? Oh wait you must have read the end of the book too heh?

      SarcasticHeathen - 2013-03-21 21:12

      Where is Satan actually worshiped in the LaVeyan church of Satan?

      Antoinette Keyser - 2013-03-22 01:51

      Cannot understand how anyone could believe that a view dozen books that were written over a period of thousands of years could actually be one book, lol! And written by various humans but actually by "god himself"? Now that one really beats me! When you say "end of the book", to which one of the several do you actually refer?

  • emmakajee - 2013-03-21 19:14

    So many Christian celebrations are directly rooted in pre-existing Pagan practices and traditions. Christians these days don't seem to know a thing about the religion they swear by.

  • Charl Christian Christensen - 2013-03-21 21:02

    Richard Dawkins is an atheist. Thus denying the existence of God. This disqualifies him from commenting on the character of God.

      SarcasticHeathen - 2013-03-21 21:13

      He isn't denying the existence of a god. He is rejecting the unsupported claims made by the religious.

      Antoinette Keyser - 2013-03-22 01:53

      Ummm... what SarcasticHeathen said...

  • Morwen Hazel - 2013-03-21 21:54

    Can the pagans please tell us what occult practices occur in your religions/celebrations or daily lives. I really would like to have a clearer understanding.

      Antoinette Keyser - 2013-03-22 02:13

      @ Morwen: here are two links that you can follow to learn more. Bear in mind, however, that their are several Pagan "denominations", (if one could call it that)that are all part of the bigger picture. Much like denominations in the Christian movement, I suppose. Therefore not everything in these articles can be accredited to every Pagan. Hope you understand and hope you find what you are looking for in order to clear the confusion. Namaste!:) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism_(contemporary)

      Morwen Hazel - 2013-03-22 05:20

      Thank you Antoinette, I already looked at http://www.pagancouncil.co.za/node/933. What I am interested in is real-life scenarios from myNews24users. I am trying to understand what exactly happens that may now -no longer- happen. Why there is an objection to her statement.

      Medb - 2013-03-22 08:38

      Morwen, first off, our objection to Creecy's statement and MoU is that it encourages teachers and parents to discriminate against occult-orientated minority religions. Secondly, government should be a secular institution and Creecy, acting as a MEC, is endorsing one faith to the exclusion of others. As for a real-life scenario consider this: My daughter goes to a school where 'Satanism' and the occult are feared and the belief or practicing of these beliefs lead to instant expulsion. This is a government-funded school. Now what if my daughter discusses in class how she attended a Pagan religious ceremony, or how she likes playing with her mom's tarot cards? Bearing in mind that, thanks to the perpetuation of misunderstanding regarding occult religions, elements of a Pagan lifestyle are considered as "Satanic" and 'bad'. How well do you think that's going to end? This scenario is not made-up and is one of the reasons why I stand behind SAPRA on putting an end to the misunderstanding regarding our (and other occult religion's) beliefs. For an in-depth understanding of why, then read SAPRA's press releases: http://www.paganrightsalliance.org/

  • Iampeople - 2013-03-21 22:16

    An ye harm none do as ye will - What you do to my brother you do to me - Do unto others as you would have done to you. All have one thing in common, do not harm. If someone or some phylosphy is harming others it should be dealt with

  • Dylan - 2013-03-21 22:57

    @ sarcasticheathen - have to have a chuckle at your comment... Clever one!

      SarcasticHeathen - 2013-03-22 21:45

      Which one?

  • Ashley Tyler Smith - 2013-03-21 23:01

    These alleged "occult murders" and "satantic rituals" are so far fetched.. you people watch too many horroe and thriller movies ad listen too intently to what your preachers and head of religious groups say. they claim to do the work of GOD but all they do is pollute young minds to the truth that they believe is to be "God's word". how many pastors actually do as the bible tells them to do if they did they wouldnt be molesting young children and that isnt an "allogation" its the truth.. secondly is it not stated in the bible that "thy shall not judge"? zeriously stop trying to force your outrageous religious views on anyone that is different than you are just because you are afraid of what you DONT understand! before making pathetic uneducated assumptions... read about it.. YOU'RE NEVER TOO OLD TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW, oh and the bible doesnt say you have the right to persecute anyone look in the mirror long and hard and ask yourself NOT convince yourself if you're actually the person you always imagined yourself to be growing up.. i czn honestly tell you that i am whom i have always wanted to be because i have been true to myself and my beliefs and my beliefs dont say JUDGE others that are different... i've had my say

  • Maneo Molefe - 2013-03-22 05:48

    Answer this, wasn't satanism created as a rebillion against Christianity? They do the opposite of the word of God, 1 of the commandments says DO NOT KILL, so u want us to believe that satanist chose OBEY that rule

      TSR01 - 2013-03-22 10:17

      By your own admission, "Satanism" is technically a partial creation of Christianity. When Christianity came about and they called "Satan" Lucifer after the Arch-Angel Michael was cast out of Heaven for seeking power, people immediately came to understand "Satan" as the ultimate evil. Before Christianity, nobody knew of a Satan. Why I said technically, is that because LaVeyan Satanism is based on principles which may seem anti-Christian, because technically, it rejects the notion of a higher power, and lays the responsibility for one's life and actions in one's own hands. (which some could say is "heresy" for calling yourself "the god of your own life", because you do what you wish to, and face the repercussions thereof) So quite honestly, I think you've partially answered your own question and misunderstanding. People assume Satanism is the opposite of Christianity, yet it isn't, because it has only been defined to a certain limitation in the Bible; the Bible does not say what Satanists do, believe, adhere to, and practice - if at all. ;)

  • Enlightened Bowman - 2013-03-22 07:13

    Anti harmful religious practise? Could someone at that level not have come up with a more suitable term? Sounds like a contradition in terms anyway.

  • Enlightened Bowman - 2013-03-22 07:17

    @mlungisi Botha As a card acrrying atheis, I have no religion but what you say about satanists sounds like you heard it fromthe pope.Be very careful not to confuse devil worship with Satanism. It would be like calling all christians Juan de Torquemada. I haveread the bible, the koran and extracts fromverious religious tones, that includes the satanic bible and somehow it specificallly prohibits harm to innocents. Please, dont argue with me, I am not professing, rather read it.

  • Enlightened Bowman - 2013-03-22 07:20

    @Francisco Fumarola. You are completely right. I read the Satanic bible and it has absolutely nothing to do with deliberate violence, human sacrifice, nor does it condone anything even remotely close to these criminal behaviours.

  • andy.beak - 2013-03-22 09:15

    lol... that's really hateful speech - protecting children is a TERRIBLE idea and I'm surprised the Roman Catholics are not also complaining about this

  • cj.venter - 2013-03-22 13:13

    i've met and known many pagans and not one of them lean toward violence, racism or hate speech, whereas the christians i've met on the other hand.....

  • Francisco Fumarola - 2013-03-22 18:20

    Everyone should read this article. You will see that Satanism hysteria/panic by concerned Christians, Concerned Parents, Concerned teachers/education departments and Concerned Pastors causes far more actual damage than the satanism they so dearly love to rave about. http://www.looklocal.co.za/looklocal/content/en/chatsworth/chatsworth-mobile-news?oid=7018373

  • Riaan Coetzee - 2013-03-23 13:01

    I have seen children caught up in occultism, and the practises they get involved in can be horrific. Recently I have met a child who strangled a cat, and twisted it like a wet towel to get the blood out, too sacrifice it to some demon. Now I am not saying he was posessed(I am sceptical about things like that), but the dangers of getting involved with the occult is clear.

      Avalon Dragonrider - 2013-03-23 13:49

      Those children sound more like serial killers to me than someone caught up in the "occult". Do you even know what the word means. How did you know that the child did this...did they tell you. Did you then report them to the SPCA. If you did not see it with your own eyes or hear it with your own ears.............dont spread it with your tongue.

  • Marius Silverwolf Heath - 2013-04-11 14:03

    education MEC!, wow no wonder the education system battles. if there was any integrity in her statements i would respond but i don't think she has the ability to grasp anything beyond her limited knowledge on the topic. pure unprecedented promotion of hate speech of which actually is against our very bill of rights so in retrospect she should publicly apologize and educate herself on the topic. isn't it strange that spoken nonsense when said by someone with a fancy outfit or a flower in the lapel gets taken as the ultimate truth. the mouth always reveals the limitations of the mind, thank you dear lady for sharing your limitations, in public!

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