Pretoria name change halted for now

2012-12-06 10:48

Pretoria - Unexpected support for the preservation of Pretoria's name, and political wrangling in the run-up to the ANC's Mangaung conference, has led to the ongoing name-change saga being temporarily shelved, according to a report on Thursday.

Beeld reported that Pretoria residents were given the opportunity during a public participation event on 16 November to indicate whether they were for or against the proposed name change from Pretoria to Tshwane.

The Tshwane speaker's office, which is handling the process, apparently realised that there was a lot more support for the name Pretoria than for Tshwane.

In addition, Beeld reported, the name change issue has recently had to take a back seat in the ANC-Tshwane district, because political survival at Mangaung has become the top priority.

The party's leadership had reportedly planned to make a recommendation to Paul Mashatile, minister of arts and culture, regarding the name change by the end of November.

"Pretoria's name has been thrown a temporary lifejacket, and will see 2013," an ANC insider told Beeld.

The ANC regarded the support for Pretoria as "unnatural", and would like to establish whether "ghost votes" were cast, the insider said.

Speaker Morakane Mosupyoe declined to comment to Beeld.

  • dienaakte.waarheid.7 - 2012-12-06 10:56

    "The ANC regarded the support for Pretoria as "unnatural", and would like to establish whether "ghost votes" were cast, the insider said" - In other words, if its not going our way, we will claim its been rigged and a third force was involved. If it wasnt so obvious, it would have been funny. Thats why we cant have nice things......

      aarchaic - 2012-12-06 11:05

      They can’t see the way people is getting angry at them just going and doing anything they want! And all people is starting to Unite against them! it’s not a thing about white and black no more it’s about incompetence and wasteful expenditures when kids can’t go to schools cause the teachers are not paid and don’t get text books....

      stirrer.stirrer - 2012-12-06 11:23

      Using "ghost votes" is not unnatural, it's supernatural.

      p.borchard - 2012-12-06 12:33

      Isn't these 'ghost'votes their ancestors that's ticked off with them, teaching them a lesson? :)

      nic.nomicos.3 - 2012-12-06 13:53

      Ghost votes are ANCnatural ...

  • phillipa.mill - 2012-12-06 10:57

    The ANC regarded the support for Pretoria as "unnatural", and would like to establish whether "ghost votes" were cast NO ANC ONLY YOU ARE UNNATURAL AND USE GHOST VOTES PATHETIC SCUMBAGS

  • andre.vandeventer.16 - 2012-12-06 10:58

    Why waste millions to change the name Pretoria to someone no one knows about and there is no history of. If the rate of change exceeds the rate of progress, you are going nowhere!

      osmaseko - 2012-12-06 11:23

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 11:28

      Osmaseko, there's a difference between people living indigenous in an area (although even this is doubtful, since there are evidence our tribes migrated from the north as late as the 1500's) and people moving in and establishing a CITY. We might debate the means, the methods, and the people, but not the fact.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-12-06 11:44

      I agree, if Chief Tshwane founded the city, then it would be ok for it to be named after him. But he didn't. That doesn't mean that part of history doesn't have importance. Pretoria was founded by Pretorius, therefore the name should reflect that.

      rocky.bell.98 - 2012-12-06 13:41

      osmaseko. Just a lot of propaganda. I heard the word tshwane meant ape. The Apies River flows through Pretoria. O yes. Dinosauruses roamed the earth (Pretoria area) te million years ago. It will therefoe be stoopid to call the city Dinoville. Andries Pretorius founded the city ages ago. It must remain as Pretoria other wise ZOOgate must be changed to Verwoerdburg - as easy as that.

  • solo.mathe.5 - 2012-12-06 11:02

    Either you change it or leave it alone already!... I'm getting bored with this Pretoria name changing issue.

  • vandermafa - 2012-12-06 11:09

    How is changing the name going to benefit anybody? The billions that’s to be used to change the name could be used to build schools and hospitals in the rurals or something. But NO at the end of the day some ANC official needs to benefit from the TENDER.

      hein.huyser - 2012-12-06 11:52

      VDM, the irony is they can get more from rural tenders. This is a few individuals on an ego trip. Those are also the people in survival mode now. The general person out there are tired of the games the anc are playing, whilst the masses still suffer. Enough of them now!!

      mpho.kgakwakandlovu - 2012-12-06 13:14

      I was born in Pretoria I grew up here and I like it this way (Pitori). In fact I have become a Pretorian (The identity I would rather die for). Now you want to call me what? Tshwa what? Hell no I am refusing

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 13:19

      Mpho, you're proudly South African. That's what matters. Also, Pretoria also refers to Praetorium, which references the Latin for Seat in the sense of "government". So it's not only about Pretorius, but very descriptive!

  • ntombezinhle.tlhapane - 2012-12-06 11:18

    I really don't see the need to change Pretoria to Tshwane! It's not unusual that people Prefer Pretoria! It's part of our history! Honestly speaking, it's bad enough our street names are being changed! Why cover up the history of our country for future generations? What relevence does Tshwane have to the struggles that took place in our country?

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 13:04

      Those are good points, Ntombezinhle. But what's worse is that so many ANC supporters are suffering because their local government spends money on fat cat salaries and all kinds of superficial transformation projects. I've been into a street (don't know it's name because it didn't have one!) in Atteridgeville just a week or two ago, no street lights, potholes, no road signs, blocked drains, you name it - but this metro thinks it's a good idea to waste money on things they could have done later, after improving the lives of people first.

  • magabashele.malope - 2012-12-06 11:18

    The town has to be changed to Tshwane

      ntombezinhle.tlhapane - 2012-12-06 11:22


      aarchaic - 2012-12-06 11:23

      If Pretoria was a town you can go ahead now... but it’s a city bordering on a Metropolitan so no dice... Go spend the money where its needed fixing potholes, giving Mamelodi proper storm water management and helping the people in shacks get proper housing!

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 11:30

      No, in the interest of reconciliation, it was agreed in 1994 that regions, municipalities and districts would receive new names, while towns and cities would be left alone. It was agreed that SOME street names, SOME rivers, SOME mountains and ALL OFFENSIVE NAMES would be renamed. As usual, the ANC hasn't bothered to stick to its end of the bargain. And we all know what the legal implications of not sticking to an agreement are.

      tobydt - 2012-12-06 11:38

      Pretoria is not a town, its a city. Pretoria bly Pretoria.

      karel.vanrensburg.56 - 2012-12-06 11:49

      dewaldmontgomery: And why is General Andries Pretorius' name offensive? Because he is an Afrikaner? He did you no harm and he is as important to the Afrikaners as the struggle leaders is to us. It would do you no harm to learn more about our country's rich history and appreciate other cultures also.

      hein.huyser - 2012-12-06 11:54

      Grow up and leave your racist tendencies Malope. You are the reason why the anc are being hated by your own Dinosaur

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 12:51

      I didn't say it's offensive. K###rskraal is offensive. Stinkwater is offensive. Those are prime examples of names that can go! And must go, for the sake of the dignity of people living there! If anything, I would like to see that every language in this country has the right to refer to place names in their own language in their own way - like we see in other countries around the world. One sign English, one sign Russian, or One sign English, one sign Flasish. Etc. So, in my view, yes, Pretoria SHOULD technically stay Pretoria, and I wouldn't object. But if it HAS to be open for discussion, consider a solution that would satisfy everyone - use English/Afrikaans (which are the same name), and another name (spoken by the dominant group of non-Afrikaans/English people in the area) - and use name signs interchangeably. One Pretoria, one Tshwane, one Pretoria, one Tshwane. And it wouldn't cost MORE than having to replace ALL the name signs. It's even more affordable than the dual-name idea on ONE sign (Pretoria-Tshwane) as proposed by some political parties.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-12-06 12:57

      @ Mbulelo You are awesome. What a great attitude you have :)

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 13:01

      Just for the record, I fully support your view, Mbulelo.

      karel.vanrensburg.56 - 2012-12-06 13:57

      @dewaldmontgomery: Sorry friend, my statement was aimed magabashele.malope. This mistakes happen when one copy and paste names! I didn't meant to offend you. I agree that there is place names that is blatant racist and should be changed asap, but it is the minority of names, and does not include everything that sounds slightly Afrikaans. Peace.

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 14:06

      No problem. At least we're talking, not screaming!

      alpheusthupa.summer - 2012-12-06 15:11

      I agree with you 100%. Actually all the towns with Dutch names must be changed to African names. (Afrikans = African by chance)

  • JanGrimbeek - 2012-12-06 11:18

    "The ANC regarded the support for Pretoria as "unnatural", and would like to establish whether "ghost votes" were cast, the insider said." OR The ANC regarded the support for Pretoria as "unnatural", and would like to establish whether their own "ghost votes" were counted, the insider said.

  • Mfundo Thabo Radebe - 2012-12-06 11:19

    WTH! I love the name Pretoria!!! Give me a break people seriously

      karel.vanrensburg.56 - 2012-12-06 12:29

      I agree, comrade!

      mpho.kgakwakandlovu - 2012-12-06 14:48

      Guys let's revolt against this. The name for me is very personal. I can't think of any other name for the beautiful city.

  • Cappuccinno4u - 2012-12-06 11:26

    i dnt c any nid for changing names here instead dey'd rather preserve both Pretoria and Tshwane simultaneously just like Bloemfontein and Mangaung respectively..its gonna be a waist of money altering names just like they did on most of Pretoria central street names..

  • risengab - 2012-12-06 11:41

    Lol. Just because the majority doesnt agree with them it's unnatural. They should start to realise that people are sick of their tendencies of it's either my way or else

  • karel.vanrensburg.56 - 2012-12-06 11:44

    Good, no reason to erase South Africa's history. We all belong in this country.

      carina.welman - 2012-12-06 11:54

      Hear hear Mbulelo!! Well said!

      karel.vanrensburg.56 - 2012-12-06 12:08

      Bwhahaha!mawandewonderman.mkuba, are you trying to insult me because I prefer to think for myself and not just accept everything that our leaders tells us? I'll take your word as a compliment. When will you wake up and start thinking for yourself? These "leaders" only think about themselves and their families. How do you justify Nkandla? Or the dumping of school books in Limpopo? Or all the corruption and fraud? Do you really think that AIDS can be cured by showering? Do you really think lightning has "racist tendencies"? Grow up and stop being so naive (ignorant).

      truthis.tway - 2012-12-06 12:21

      @mawandewonderman-Do we not all belong in this country? Is Pretorius not part of the country's history?

      p.borchard - 2012-12-06 12:48

      Mr Mkuba, I think even Biko would have told you that you are the idiot here. You are very quick to demand your 'history' be acknowledged. Guess what, we are all South Africans and our 'history' also happened. Whether you like it or not. Face it, your way is not helpful to anybody, how about taking off your wonderman suit and face reality. This is not a comic book, it is real life.

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 12:59

      Don't worry. He's a classic yellow green gold puppet. Can't think for himself, can't debate without calling whites racists, and fellow black people coconuts. Exactly what we need to show the world the bunch of retards that rule our country instead of govern it.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-12-06 12:59

      With people like you Mbulelo, this country will indeed be great :) We need to stick together, as citizens of this country, with a common cause. Why are we segregating ourselves based on race or political affiliation?

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-12-06 12:59

      Coconut? You f**ken racist a$$hole! FFS, why can you not let go of your racial issues?

      pushocapture.maake - 2012-12-06 13:32

      Mbulelo for DA president. I could see all these white commentators licking your hairy ass.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-12-06 14:04

      Oh jesus christ on a stick... Just get off your racist bullsh*t!!!! Really? Is it the only think you know? White and black? We give Mbulelo respect because he deserves it. He is an intelligent person, that thinks critically and isn't a mindless sheep like yourself. It's easy to just follow the leader. No wonder you are a sheep. Baaaa!

      karel.vanrensburg.56 - 2012-12-06 14:05

      Thanks for the compliment Wesley, There is many other of my people that is getting fed-up with the ANC's dirty tactics to stay in power. How else did the ANC lose in so many of Western Cape's township wards? Times are changing and slowly but surely our democracy is maturing.

  • gwilym.howes - 2012-12-06 11:51

    Pity these people don't build something of their own and then choose the name they want. Why must they always take something that someone else has built and give it one of their dumb names? The derision I have heard from overseas people at the ridiculaous names like Gauteng and Mpumalanga to mention a few...

  • hein.huyser - 2012-12-06 11:57

    The anc just can not accept the fact that their ways are over now, and that most people are against them. How will they cope with losing a general election I wonder.

  • Jeremy - 2012-12-06 12:01

    I think there's room for both Pretoria and Tshwane. Keep the status quo, with Pretoria as the city name and Tshwane as the muncipality - and you'll keep everyone happy.

      mawandewonderman.mkuba - 2012-12-06 12:26

      Erase Pretorius

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 12:57

      Not all black people are certain chief Tshwane even existed, though. Particularly not the descendants of those who lived in the Wonderpoompoort area in 1850/1860's. More research needs to be done.

      justsayingagain - 2012-12-06 13:22

      ever the pragmatist. I agree

      nic.nomicos.3 - 2012-12-06 13:24

      @Jeremy that makes sense to me....

  • Sibusiso - 2012-12-06 12:04

    Give it up Afriforum!The name Pretoria represents a by-gone era!It was a capital city of a particular order which the majority of this country fought till it was defeated in 1994.Should the current order (democracy) be removed ,I supposed the new name (Tshwane) could be removed as well.It depends who is in charged and what is it that they like.

      karel.vanrensburg.56 - 2012-12-06 12:18

      Nonsense! There is no reason that we can't co-exist. Or are you too proud to live in a city that was not found by our ancestors? I live in Cape Town, and appreciate the Dutch heritage that one find here.

      mawandewonderman.mkuba - 2012-12-06 12:20

      Hello Diba Europe butt kisser, thumbs up seeker

      karel.vanrensburg.56 - 2012-12-06 12:27

      @mawandewonderman: Get off the internet yoooo bloody Agent! If you use it too much you might start to think for yourself. But of course only westerners are allowed to to that?

      karel.vanrensburg.56 - 2012-12-06 12:31

      @mawandewonderman: you've not answered my questions in my previous post. Or are you too brain-washed to think about the matters that I raised?

      dewaldt.duplessis.5 - 2012-12-06 12:43

      Diba just ignore the bloody fool! You are a much better African that he will ever be. He is to blind to see that we all want to work together and build a nice future for everyone. We need more people like you and to hell with racism that comes from both sides. I'm guilty aswell but believe it or not I would like to join hands with all South Africans and live in peace and harmony. So 1000 thumbs up for you. You give me hope for this beautiful country. Viva Pretoria Viva!

      p.borchard - 2012-12-06 12:54

      sibusiso and mawawawawawawawawawawawawa, wouldn't it be nice to just chill for a change and LISTEN to other opinions as well? You are so busy screaming and blaming everyone who are not as closed minded as you, that you can't see that you are being used as canon fodder by the men in shiny suits who are laughing at you while they are living a life of luxury.

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 12:55

      That's what's wrong with ANC supporters. They think it's about DEFEAT, REVENGE, etc. If it's such a gone by era, why exactly can't the ANC rule without invoking its ghosts?

      Sibusiso - 2012-12-06 12:56

      As far as I know ,the name of that area changed at some point.The area was not called Pretoria a 200 yrs ago.Somebody came ,chased away the natives and renamed the place.The one who is in power uses it to do what they think is right.It's always been like that.

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-12-06 13:05

      I can see sibusiso and mkuba are stupid. They might have an education, but they remain ignorant fools. You guys are probably the ones to scream RACIST! if someone says the k-word, yet in the next breath, call white people umlungu (means white scum that comes from the sea), which is equally disgusting and racist. FFS, why can you not let go of your racial prejudices?

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 13:21

      Yes, Sibu, in stark contrast to developments all over the world, there was not a single fence, not a single border, not a single road, and consequently, not a single sign warning anyone there's some underground city in the area. FACT: In 1899, several photographs were taken of the Plein. NOT A SINGLE BLACK PERSON. (Not that it matters). Only kaalvoet-polisiemanne (that's why they were once called Die Pote in Afrikaans). That's BEFORE 1948. The 1902 cencus, which COUNTED black people, since we were then ruled by the English : MORE whites than blacks. That's BEFORE 'apartheyd'. Fact: Only one tribe was chased away BECAUSE they were invaders from the Eastern Highveld (called Mpumalanga today), and that was in full cooperation between the Voortrekkers and the locals. Military help, if you can call it that.

      solo.mathe.5 - 2012-12-06 13:47

      The name Pretoria is only relevant to the boeres and the africans were never consulted about it.

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-12-06 14:09

      Buy land, build a city, and name it whatever you want! You may even do so without consulting 'boeres' and we won't mind. Just MOVE ON FFS.

  • sean.noble1 - 2012-12-06 12:04

    As Mr Lemkin said, and im sure you can see a pattern in SA that relates to this "Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups."

  • theMichaelHawthorne - 2012-12-06 12:11

    To Mkuba I'm african too you sob!

      tobydt - 2012-12-06 12:36

      mawande - Go back to Congo foreigner :P

  • theMichaelHawthorne - 2012-12-06 12:14

    I think names should be tourist friendly most new african names aren't... So now only zulu people can ask for directions...

  • warren.carne.9 - 2012-12-06 12:17

    Ghost voters and they find it unnatural? And NOW they want to do an investigation,how about doing investigations that matter in real issues,ghost companies and ghost beneficiary's from the ghost tenderpreneurs when tenders are awarded.

  • Madelein - 2012-12-06 12:44

    Mbulela _Diba for president! You make so much sense, it is good to hear that not all black people hate their fellow white South Africans. I could live in this country with a president talking the good sense you do.

  • solo.mathe.5 - 2012-12-06 13:33

    The history behind the name is nothing Africans should be proud of anyway, so changing it is a good idea. And all these blacks crying its our history are just ignorant and lack the capacity to think for themselves...

      wesley.bischoff - 2012-12-06 13:36

      You know maybe 5% of SA history. Do yourself a favour and research your own history, instead of listening to lies from the ANC.

  • alpheusthupa.summer - 2012-12-06 14:41

    Let the name be changed and write the new history, like the way whites did.We are tired of Dutch names in our big towns.

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