SA set to recognise gay flag

2012-10-06 12:23

Johannesburg - South Africa could become the first country to formally recognise the flag representing the Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, Transgenders, Intersex and Asexual (LGBTIA) community, according to a report on Saturday.

"The flag was recently registered with the department of arts and culture," the flag's designer Eugene Brockman told the Citizen newspaper.

"We received the certificate that had been officially endorsed by government, but are awaiting the signature of the minister before everything is finalised."

Brockman, who was expected to deliver the news at the annual Joburg Pride Day on Saturday, said the six different colours on the flag symbolised the nation's freedom and diversity, not only in connection with race and culture, but also sexuality.

The colours of the LGBTIA flag are red, representing life, orange for healing, yellow for sunlight, green for nature, indigo for magic and violet for spirit.

South Africa's post-apartheid Constitution was the first in the world to outlaw discrimination against sexual orientation and, in 2006, it legalised same-sex marriages.

- Are you at Joburg Pride? Send us your pictures.

  • Bfoq.Za - 2012-10-06 12:39

    Pride Proud and Perfect

      james.hurley.5249 - 2012-10-06 15:54

      Lerato just doesn't get it - hey lerato, in a country where there is 'corrective' rape of women who are lesbian, where a young gay man was decapitated (not just killed - decapitated), where women are gang-raped for being lesbian, the flag is about visibility and the refusal to be ashamed in a warped society which sees consensual relations between adults as being worthy of violence. It has nothing to do with wanting to be special, and everything to do with being treated as being reserved for especial violence.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-06 17:45

      Lerato, Do you lose any of your rights because of this flag? Are you blackmailed or forced to attend even ONE Pride? Are you left no choice but to go to gay only bars? No? Then WTF are you on about?

      lerato.mnizi - 2012-10-06 17:51

      @TheMark. No to your questions. I am very happy that you guys got a flag. Go Gay Flag!!! Can't you see how happy I am for you? YEAH!!!!

      james.hurley.5249 - 2012-10-06 18:35

      no-one claimed the flag would end violent acts - you claimed the flag constitutes a demand to be regarded as 'special', while i highlighted the importance of flags and other symbols as part of a general consciousness-raising. Get it right.

      brenton.tyrrell - 2012-10-07 19:34

      I just hope it doesn't become compulsory to be gay. Things are moving and changing pretty quickly thesedays...

      preshen.govender.90 - 2012-10-08 08:05

      When two gay men go out who pays the bill ?

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 09:26

      @mattewis.kat 1)If being sterile and not producing offspring is a sure indicator of so-called 'immorality', could you please explain why barren couples should be banished from this utopian society of yours? 2)There have been studies which show that lesbian women actually provide the most stable home environments of all. Couple this with the fact that many heterosexual people have children they cannot care for (hence the existence of adoption) it would make sense that children are given a loving home rather than left in an orphanage. 3) The concept of 'human nature' is a problematic leftover from the Enlightenment which, despite it's name, also saw the expansion of empire and the subjugation of people the world over. Even the (supposedly infallible) Pope issued a bull granting Portugal and other countries the 'right' to enslave other people. 'Human nature' is not some pure, unsullied construct. 4) Your reference to people being tortured 'just for living on a farm' betrays your historical ignorance - farm murders are part of South Africa's long history of contested space and are closely interlinked to poverty as well as exploitative labour conditions. People get murdered, like the tragic recent occurrence of the mother in Claremont, due to the desperation of people living in poverty and the kind of social ills (drugs/gangs) which are deeply entrenched in SA society. Gay and lesbian people are tortured and killed not for material reasons but simply out of irrational hatred.

      Osito - 2012-10-08 09:36

      @Preshan, we sometimes split it, otherwise we take turns, as with everything else.. ;)

      chilli.stephenson1 - 2012-10-08 11:53

      @james. Listen the warped part of society is that men are wanting other men and chicks wanting other chicks! That is warped boet!

      mattewis.kat - 2012-10-08 14:01

      @james.hurley It's probably pointless to comment on your statement here, as my original comment to which you are responding seems to have been removed. I suppose that's how Media24 allows freedom of expression, but let me try anyway. I spent a tremendous amount of time in the old Transkei, Ciskei, and Bop, and let me tell you: There is NO contest for land in this country! An inability to cultivate and develop unused land in spite of the best intended teaching and investment efforts, YES, and in liberal abundance too!!!! As for poverty causing murderers to torture victims to death with boiling water and other despicable means, that is utter nonsense! Have you seen these "poverty stricken attackers" when they appear in court well- fed and clothed? In terms of your gay argument I'm saying that procreation is a natural occurrence in a heterosexual relationship, and non-existent in a so-called gay one. That does not mean to say I condone procreation in immoral or uncaring heterosexual unions - I'm just saying that's how the design works, but that doesn't fit your paradigm hence I assume your wild interpolation. Why do two people of the same sex have to have a physical relationship? I'm saying that if everyone suddenly became "enlightened", there'll be nobody to wipe your dribble in the old age home one day! Is being good friends just not enough, and if it isn't, is the opposite sex so inherently despicable that you have to opt for the same? I find that offensive, sorry!

      nancy.kay.712 - 2012-10-08 14:25


      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 14:25

      @chilli - as you present no real substantiation why homosexuality is 'warped', I consider your comment spurious. @mattewis - your notion that there is 'no contest for land' is completely ahistorical in its occluded vision. An example - recent attempts to claim the Rondebosch Common by a movement for land reclamation in the Cape Flats. I'm not saying farm murders are contesting the land, but that historically, farms were sites of appropriation where people were divested of their habitats, and that we are looking at these legacies of colonial expansion and the disregard of others. Regarding the rest of your poorly-reasoned and deeply offensive comment - your argument, unless i'm mistaken, is that there is no procreation in same-sex unions, thus they are odious. I responded querying what you make of barren couples. I did not imply that you condone procreation in 'immoral' heterosexual unions, but that you seem to regard procreation in itself as being the hallmark of a moral/ethical relationship. Not everything is about the physical (none of my committed, monogamous relationships have been)

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 14:29

      furthermore, my argument is not a 'gay argument' but a 'human argument' or perhaps a 'reasonable argument' (as yours certainly isn't). I think your statement about there being 'nobody to wipe [my] dribble in the old age home one day' is deeply offensive, since you imply that only heterosexual people are caregivers (patently untrue) and that i'll be alone in my old age (that remains to be seen). If I treated people with the contempt you do, referring to their 'dribbling' (which incidentally is a very degrading view of the elderly, a very trivialising view of their physical situations), i am sure i Would end up alone. My sexuality has nothing to do with the opposite sex. Women are beautiful and I love women. I'm just not physically attracted to them. Emotionally, yes.

      Hanjo.0 - 2012-10-08 15:21

      Mattewis, you are right, 'natural' procreation is technically impossible between gay couples. however, seeing that the world is overpopulated, homosexuality doesn't do any harm. on the contrary...

      tim.craven.756 - 2012-10-08 16:29

      @JokerZA: People like you are the biggest problem with society these days. Go spout your hate speech somewhere else please, South Africa cannot afford complete idiots like yourself.

      GullibleX - 2012-10-08 16:47

      Are you gay Tim?

      tim.craven.756 - 2012-10-08 16:56

      @JokerZA: No, I am not. I am also not female and yet i am completely against woman abuse. And what does my sexual orientation have to do with anything? I do not like hate speech or discrimination in any form, whether it affects me directly or not.

      clifford.sithole.5 - 2012-10-09 11:15

      I have nothing against gays.... AS LONG AS both women are hot.

      squeegee.pilot - 2012-10-09 11:46

      Do gays now get their own homeland? - 2012-10-09 12:07

      flags for sexual orientation? Where is the straight Flag? Also, its NOT Joburg Pride.. Its GAY Pride. We dont all agree with you..

      handy.andy.3990 - 2012-10-09 15:15

      @mattewis.kat - I don't know why people are gay, but the one thing I do know, is that it is not an easy life. Very few people will "choose" it. Imagine having to tell your conservative parents or friends you grew up with. So, don't just assume you understand how it works. I agree, the design seem to be favoring heterosexuals, but there are many factors that could work against this that could change you before or after birth.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 15:53

      @handy.andy commendable in your sensibility and reason. Thanks.

      merven.halo - 2012-10-10 09:06

      What I don't understand is: Ever since I can remember gays complained that they are labeled. Now suddenly they want a flag to label themselves? So it is basically a case of, other people may not label them but they can label themselves.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-10 09:50

      @Merven - as I have written elsewhere on this thread 'they' do not want a flag. We are not some homogenous group - the flag has absolutely nothing to do with me. That said, i'm all for it if it helps raise consciousness about diversity.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-11 01:29

      Any bigots should watch this series of documentaries on the evangelical presence in Uganda, and how religious zealots from the USA have been stirring up hatred by spreading lies such as 'all gay people have an agenda to recruit schoolchildren'. The so-called 'pastor' found the most extreme pornography he could find and showed it to his congregation as 'proof'. These are the depths to which the fearful religious, who cannot think for themselves, will sink. Link:

  • jacob.mphatswe - 2012-10-06 12:42

    Affording people all the rights accrued in the bill of rights is more than sufficient.Restraint thus command that the entire nation subject itself to one unifying national flag without divisive colours.

      renier.lubbe.7 - 2012-10-06 13:00

      Well said!

      JackTrend - 2012-10-06 15:38

      Well said, we are all South African. The rainbow flag which someone seems to have decided to draw black and white lines on it has very special history and represents the first freedom for gay people. That is what is being celebrated today. To make a "South African" gay flag is divisive and against what the Gay Flag represents. To make matters worse I suspect this person orchestrating this "South African" gay flag seeks to make money out of a global symbol.

      maree.cassie - 2012-10-08 11:46

      Don't know what the fuss is about. I can recognize a gay flag a mile away... :)

      PAP - 2012-10-09 09:54

      James I did my best to describe my experience with Gay Parading and you stick your heels in the sand and divert to the Palestinians - why divert we are talking about Gays. That sort of leans in my favor about Gays pushing their agenda without considertation but their own and reaching out to anything else to justify themselves. But I understand now having read your FB profile. You only graduated from Rondebosch Boys' High School only in 2000. Oh, Young and Gay. What a fabulous but fleeting combination. Still there is nothing wrong with being young. I was young once myself. But time has a way of teaching. I seem to have a bit more global experience than you - so you might want to consider what I say. I bet in a few years there will be a memory - perhaps this one - that will bring of smile of youthful embarrassment to your face.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 10:30

      @Pap - the very fact that I have learned how to tell ridiculous arguments from sound ones (whereas you haven't) rubbishes your claim that my believing in no discrimination is a mere passing phase of youth. I will always be anti-discrimination in any form. If I had not been a young child when apartheid was raging, you can be sure I would have fought for your rights. Discrimination is wrong. I wasn't diverting it to the Palestinians, I was pointing out, in the context of Tel Aviv, that there are far more serious things going on in and around Israel than gay pride parades. I have no agenda, there is no such thing as a 'gay agenda'. My only 'agenda' here is to dispel the untruth of comments such as the ones you have made about gay people. Your patronising attitude with regard to my age is trivial. I am well-read, and though I may not be well-travelled, I know enough of the world to call bull**** when I see it.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 10:33

      @Pap also, your 'oh Young and Gay, what a fabulous and fleeting combination' is contemptuous and also untrue. There is not much that is fabulous about being young and gay - it's not easy coming out, it's not easy being subjected to bullying in school or any other experiences that are par for the course for many young people as they are coming to terms with their sexuality. Unfortunately, time has taught you everything except compassion and true understanding, and instead has taught you bitterness and contempt.

  • gordon.turner.37 - 2012-10-06 13:04

    Weird how it is always the most "manly" men who are most bothered by what other people do behind closed doors.

      morgaenart.farto - 2012-10-06 13:27

      Well then, bend over and take one for the 'team".

      chris.summers.3954 - 2012-10-06 13:48

      Don't forget the religious crack-pots, hilarious considering how much abuse of young boys goes on in for example the Roman Catholic side of things, and has for a very long time.

      phoenix.px.5 - 2012-10-06 14:15

      In a study of homophobic and non-homophobic men, they were shown 4 minutes each of straight, lesbian and gay porn, whilst having a measurement 'tool' to indicate increase in circumference. ALL the men were turned on by straight and lesbian porn, but ONLY men from the HOMOPHOBIC group were turned on by gay porn. Find the study at the US National Library for Medicine, article 8772014.

      dalai.rama.9 - 2012-10-06 14:46

      @Phoenix perhaps organisers of the "study" (most certainly) gay had used their "own" in a sample. Hence the credibility is questionable. Dalai Rama

      frik.mcdonald.9 - 2012-10-07 21:12

      @Chriss, waht an ignorant fool, bad people do bad things, just because he claims to be religious and isnt you blame the religion, blame the guy responsible. btw not catholic, just you have crappy reasoning.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 09:30

      @frik Could you please explain then why his great infallible worship the Pope Ratzinger covered up many of the abuses. I'd also like to know your thoughts on the great and good Catholic civilizing mission whereby people in central African countries were told not to use condoms and to abstain (aggravating an AIDS pandemic of already catastrophic proportions). Please give me examples of how the Church's interference (and also non-inteference) in sexual matters has improved society?

      ppisciotta - 2012-10-08 11:01

      It is not what they do behind closed doors that is so disturbing - I can avoid thinking of those things. It is their parading of their sexuality before us that I find offensive. The only time I'm interested in what goes on behind closed doors is when I'm behind that door as well. And I'm not talking about what I do - none of your damn business. Why is such behavior something to be "proud" of before the world? Gays think too much of themselves. Perhaps that is part of their illness - to seek attention like children.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 14:34

      @Pap - I don't know what you're talking about parading. I for one never even hold my boyfriend's hand in public, even though he wants to, because I live in fear of being the victim of the callous abuse of uncompassionate people such as yourself. That said, there is nothing 'parading' about kissing a loved one in public, though I also think there is a line between affection and public indecency (i certainly wouldn't full-on make out in public). But your notion of parading implies that LGBTQI people should keep their relationships hidden and in shame, and to that I say that I will never let your flawed notion of 'shame' govern my life. Being gay is not classified as an illness, and this further reveals your ignorance. Better to not have spoken than to have opened your mouth and revealed yourself a fool.

      PAP - 2012-10-09 09:16

      James - by "parade" I'm talking about the Gay Pride events that are a plague to the world's senses. They are just as revolting in the States as they are in SA. My husband and I were in Israel (Tel Aviv) a while back and had to endure closed streets for the Gay Pride Event. From what little we saw the participants were equally discusting. Compare a Gay Pride Parade to what one might find on a Christmas or St. Patrick's Parade. I can take my grand-children to both the later with no concern, but I don't want them seeing men dressed up as women nor men in chaps exposing themselves, or leather straps accessorizing with little caps and nipple rings like some sexual role-playing advert. I must admit it is fun for me to laugh at the Gays, their flamboyant overt behavior is amusing. And some are fabulous designers. But I don't want their sexuality paraded before my face. I appreciate that you are discrete, but don't expect me to accept you dressed as Judy Garland during the next Gay Pride Parade. Not unless you want me to think of you as a clown.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 09:33

      @Pap poor you, you had to endure an entire day of closed streets in Tel Aviv. And the Palestinians have it easy by comparison. I think the leather straps folk are in the extreme minority in parades and you are generalizing and making it seem like more of a 'circus' than it is. That said I've never been to a pride parade so I wouldn't know. I will march for my rights but I don't need a day to celebrate pride. For this 'clown', it's gay pride 365 days a year, 24/7.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-09 14:12

      PAP, What about RAG, or protest marches, or victory marches? What about Mardi Grass, or huge popstars, or presidential visits? Does that bother your frail soul as well?

      PAP - 2012-10-09 20:51

      Mark - as for other parades - you miss the point. The theme of the others are not about pushing sexual orientation. And honey, I didn't get to my age and freedom by being frail. May you live so long if not longer than the avg male in SA which is ~49.8 yrs as of 2011. Ok, so the blacks die sooner the whites live longer. The gays? Hummmm For me I've already passed the avg mark. May you do so as well. Enjoy your life for as long as you can.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-10 06:50

      PAP, Thanx, I will try...;-). Perhaps we should just establish that we can not reconcile our views on this matter.

      sauvignon.blanc.31 - 2012-10-10 11:52

      pap - you are one of the many people on the news24 forum who seems to think, perhaps because of your age or perhaps becuase you have a bit of money, that you are intelligent. in all your babbling you never make an intelligent point and all in all, you sound like a bit of a bigot. if there is one thing that is very dangerous about people, its when they are convinced of their own intelligence and self righteousness, when in reality they have not the patience or compassion to ever truly consider someones opinion and change their way of thinking

  • ndyeboreginaldmazawule - 2012-10-06 13:06

    Holla Mzantsi.

  • PrettyUsefulArt - 2012-10-06 13:06

    Yay!!! Hope this article makes it into the Good News section.

      morgaenart.farto - 2012-10-06 13:27

      ooooooh don't smear your eyeliner, dahling

      PrettyUsefulArt - 2012-10-06 13:33

      Hey Farto... Very appropriate name you've chosen. Well done!!

      chilli.stephenson1 - 2012-10-08 12:04

      It wont. It's pathetic news. It's not Good News.. But stupid news!

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 14:35

      @chilli then why are you taking so much time to post multiple comments on it?

  • nerasmus1 - 2012-10-06 13:20

    Sorry, but I had to check the date to see if this wasn't some kind of joke. Maybe I'm not into the alternative lifestyle long enough yet but really, a flag? Isn't acceptance and having rights enough for us? What exactly is this action supposed to proof?

      PrettyUsefulArt - 2012-10-06 13:39

      Every time you open your mouth, Farto, a bad smell permeates...

      ThinkingChick - 2012-10-06 18:10

      Well, it's gone a long way to proving you and many others like you are bigoted narrow minded things I would not even wipe my dog's bottom with.

      SarcasticAgnostic - 2012-10-06 21:45

      I was being sarcastic BTW...

  • hermann.hanekom - 2012-10-06 13:26

    Now this is a queer news item.

  • alf.pop - 2012-10-06 13:38

    Lots of rearguard action! I am sure this will persuade Moody's to upgrade South Africa again! It will give the economy a boost! South Africa will take the lead in attacking the slggish economy from behind! Well done!

      james.hurley.5249 - 2012-10-07 12:12

      that's the kind of childish humour that belongs in a dated 'Carry On' movie, rather than a forum for debate.

      heiku.staude - 2012-10-10 13:38

      Lol. I appreciate the humour alf, shot.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-10 19:35

      unimaginative references to gay sex hardly constitute humour, but if you want to set the bar that low go ahead

  • sandor.l.varga - 2012-10-06 13:48

    This useless ANC government is not focusing in real issues. Corruption, rape, murder,unemployment,economic problems... I mean really: gay flag recognition??? Get real!

  • graham.marais - 2012-10-06 13:49

    Well done ANC .... Now try get school books the our school

  • sefako.mokgalaka - 2012-10-06 14:10

    I guess this is someone els's culture. The next thing would that they want their gay and lesbian ministry. There are more problems facing the department of arts

  • Neil Dustan - 2012-10-06 14:48

    fabulous i love it

  • frankflower - 2012-10-06 14:53

    I am astonished!! Dear black people, who are so against gay people, didn't you fight and 'struggle' against oppression? Wtf?

      james.hurley.5249 - 2012-10-06 16:10

      homophobia is the last bastion where people can believe in their superiority without any shred of substantiating reason.

      phoenix.px.5 - 2012-10-06 16:42

      Always amazes me how black people, of all people in SA, do not get this. Just wow.

      PrettyUsefulArt - 2012-10-07 10:30

      @ James... At the risk of appearing to be a groupie, I rest my case about loving the way you think/debate. Must be because it always feels like something I would've said. *grins*

      james.hurley.5249 - 2012-10-07 11:51

      @Brain - thanks

  • Neil Dustan - 2012-10-06 14:54

    we are proud off the flag it is fabulous!!!!

      ppisciotta - 2012-10-08 13:32

      proud off? again with the sexual inuendos. Start thinking with your other head Neil.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 14:37

      @Pap - revealing your lack of intelligence and your ridiculous infatuation with gay sex again. I fail to see how the words 'proud of' (or the typo 'proud off') connote sexual innuendo (two 'n's', by the way). If Neil needs to start thinking with his other head, you need to start thinking with your singular and small one.

      omphile.umphimodise - 2012-10-08 14:43

      PAP feeling jealous because gays are well endowed than her man who lacks in that department.

      GullibleX - 2012-10-08 16:42

      @Neil... You are proud of what? I am sorry, but I have zero tolerance for this. The stronger the gay community grows the more perilous it is going to become for the human race. What example are you guys setting for the generations to come?Coz clearly, you guys find nothing wrong with your deeds, thus would encourage more and more people to do likewise. I will say again, you guys are fighting evolution. For those of you that cannot resist the urge, do so in your own capacity, but dont come here forming a national flag for your cause, making future generations believe that your cause actually holds water.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-08 17:29

      Joker, Bullsh*t.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 17:58

      First of all Joker (ps bad name because you are not even remotely amusing or entertaining) - I did not 'come here forming a national flag' - the flag has nothing to do with me, but I am happy for anyone it gives pleasure to (and pity those who let a flag get them into a tizz, i.e. you). More importantly, the gay community will never grow 'strong' in the sense you are implying, precisely because we are, and always will be, a minority. This is because the majority are heterosexual. But that does not give the majority more moral clout. There is no inherent ethical value in numbers. There is a difference between 'the norm' and 'good', but with your limited intelligence I don't expect you to quite get that point. I see no need to 'resist' the urge, as it is not something requiring resistance. I don't have a 'cause' either, other than simply being myself and not having vile bigots such as yourself stir up hatred. 'The stronger the gay community grows the more perilous it is going to become for the human race'. This is exactly the rhetoric that was used in the Holocaust. And I don't think any human person can admit such blatantly untrue and harmful rhetoric has any place in society.

  • Khanyile Busokwakhe - 2012-10-06 14:59

    we we we mzansi banana republic

      merven.halo - 2012-10-10 09:18

      At least the bananas will be colour full.

  • PeterJJhb - 2012-10-06 15:01

    Maluxionn.... U just proved again that narrow minded hetero people are idiots. The fact is in SA gay people have rights. If u don't like it LEAVE!

      fanie.weydeman - 2012-10-08 02:14

      Ok this idiot will leave , but tell me please where to go. This world of ours is sick all over. Maybe you can sponser our idiots a island somewhere and we can leave the rest of you alone

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 09:36

      @fanie - don't let the door hit you on your way out

  • njabulo.jama.5 - 2012-10-06 15:13

    This is the B*llsh*t...corruption, strikes, nkandla, now this...Pray for Mzansi, only God can save us now

  • dalai.rama.9 - 2012-10-06 15:20

    Okee dahling! hee hee hee, hee hee heee!

  • bhekifa.bhekifa - 2012-10-06 15:26

    As a big ANC Supporter this is what we fougth for in the 1980s, the right to enjoy the beauty of our south african men let them be white or blacks or colored! damn we have some fine and cute boys in our great nation! long gone are they days of apartheid where enjoying our fellow men were banned. Nothing is more beautiful than a blue eyed and blond young white guy! what a wondeful world!

      dalai.rama.9 - 2012-10-06 15:31

      Mr utopian! Good to live in a world far removed from reality, neh?

      will.cronje.7 - 2012-10-06 15:35

      Can help to smile at your comment bhekifa.bhekifa. :)

      thunder.clap.587 - 2012-10-06 15:40

      You need help

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-08 09:35

      Frik, Choose? Unnatural? Do you even know what the word 'homosexual' means?

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 09:37

      @frik - ample evidence of homosexuality not being a choice. Either educate yourself or cling to your parochial beliefs which have absolutely zero basis in scientific fact

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-08 10:17

      Herman, You are bombarded with educated guesses from the scientific community alluding to favour genetic origin. Yet, without providing even that for your opinion, you stubbornly refuse to accept the direction the evidence is pointing. Why is that? Perhaps you can share your factual and correct citations stating clearly that sexuality is a choice? That would give your argument a boost.

      Osito - 2012-10-08 10:18

      James, don't try and argue this one. No matter how much you tell Hermann it is not a choice, he will never believe it coz he has the proof that I did not choose and nothing will ever change his mind...

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 11:28

      James, it didnt disappear, it is further done... Sad argument? Maybe, but words expercience a clear certainty is always better. Your article link shows it is an opinion, now you blame Osito, keep tell yourself you did not choose to be gcay... Kids lie without being taught it? Does that mean we have "lie" Gene or factors influence one to lie... Mark, Educated guesses are just as good as uneducated assumptions... until you have evidence it isnt a choice, I will keep saying it. Science debates the gene and biological factors... Nothing scientically on the "Choice" theory... except say it aint one... Preference are likes and dislikes, so if one dislike meat, he/she will have "vegan/vegaterian" orientation... It doesnt mean he/she had to taste the meat first( otherfactors like seeing where it came from, the preparation, but will cause a certain type of behaviour... Repeatition is akin to indoctrination( lol), say it is not a choice and your genes, but it will never make it so...let not blame our genes for a sexual behaviour. Lying isnt for our genes... so is all our other behaviours

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-08 11:43

      So you can not substantiate your opinion, then? Lol, okay. At least mine is substantiated by educated guesses.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 11:53

      Mark, I can ... Show me scientic research that says it aint a choice... sure if it isnt, there should be evidence, not stats, and not studies where the outcome is determined by the % gays in that group, in other words, if in world population there are 10% gays, the study should include only 10%...

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-08 12:34

      Herman, Science does not prove negatives. You have no articles propagating your opinion? Perhaps you should reconsider, then?

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 14:41

      @hermann I find it amusing you're telling me to concentrate when a quick scan of your concentration-laden comment revealed these lapses of concentration - 'it is further done' [sic]; 'expercience' [sic]; 'keep tell yourself' [sic]; 'gcay' [sic]; okay i got bored with pointing out your appalling use of language. Your arguments are a lot more credible if you know how to communicate

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 19:00

      Mark, not asking to proof a negative, I am asking you you to send evidence where there is conclusive evidence that one preference and orientation is influence by genes or factor(which have been requested numerous times) If not a choice, and not the genes, what is it...?Stats are not evidence, stats can be used to make a point appear more creditable... James, " Your arguments are a lot more credible if you know how to communicate " For some reason my spelling or use of grammer is affecting you, when you are unable to supply the answers...When I look at my posts before I submit they are correct... One inclination, orientation, preference are decision based... Why is against your will to accept it is a choice? Mark, your answer as well...

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-09 06:59

      Herman, If given my substantive article, quite extensively. Now, it is your turn.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-09 07:44

      Mark, James, gents, I have been experiences trouble, after post comments to the tread below, they disappear, or unable the scroll up or down, maybe article has too many comments...... but do wish to continue with this discussion...

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-09 08:15

      Mark i found this interesting piece. They discussing sexual preference vs sexual orientation or choice vs born that way... This is for your case, and plea that it aint a choice based on semantics This is pro choice Friedman, Lawrence Meir (1990). The republic of choice: law, authority, and culture. Harvard University Press. p. 92. ISBN 978-0-674-76260-2. Retrieved 8 January 2012. 9.^ Heuer, Gottfried (2011). Sexual revolutions: psychoanalysis, history and the father. Taylor & Francis. p. 49. ISBN 978-0-415-57043-5. Retrieved 8 January 2011. "The term sexual preference has a similar meaning to sexual orientation, but it suggest a degree of voluntary choice." Avoiding Heterosexual Bias in Language". American Psychological Association. Retrieved July 19, 2011. The APA also says that "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation" Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality". American Psychological Association. Retrieved 2008-05-26. "[A number of] lesbian women, and some heterosexual women as well, perceive choice as an important element in their sexual orientations."[41] see link under

      Pulverturm - 2012-10-09 10:31

      Hermann, it's actually spelt "Grammar" not "Grammer"

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-09 10:38

      Thanks teacher, Now try to educated the young that think they were born gay.... they need you voice of "reason"

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-09 10:42

      Herman, Thank you, I will peruse this in due course.

  • thunder.clap.587 - 2012-10-06 15:47

    What about a flag to recognize poor people in this country.

      frik.mcdonald.9 - 2012-10-07 21:19

      Exactly, why not?

  • makavelithedonkilluminati.shakur - 2012-10-06 15:48

    This is crap.What is this going to teach our kids?

      SarcasticAgnostic - 2012-10-06 21:48

      That beating people for being different is wrong, maybe?

      martha.stclair - 2012-10-07 08:59

      Hopefully it will teach our kids that all people, regardless of race or sexual preference, are equal!

      philjoubert - 2012-10-07 19:37

      That, if you fight for your right against small-minded idiots, you can get equal rights under the constitution of an amazing country.

      omphile.umphimodise - 2012-10-08 11:07

      It will teach our kids that having a father like you is a curse and they will feel sorry for your kids that they have been cursed.

      rohann.olivier.1 - 2012-10-08 11:45

      Unfortunately Martha, it won't teach our kids that everybody is equal. Otherwise straight people also would have had a flag.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 14:43

      Straight people already have flags - flags in every nation which does not recognize LGBTQI, tax-paying people as worthy of the same rights as everyone else.

  • thunder.clap.587 - 2012-10-06 15:50

    Mzansi South Africa has turned its back against God.

      james.hurley.5249 - 2012-10-06 19:42

      please point out the exact place in the bible where God mentions homosexuality - I suspect it is old testament in which case you yourself have probably turned your back on 'God' tenfold.

      thabang.bonang.7 - 2012-10-10 12:45

      @James,Romans 1:26-27.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-10 12:48

      that is the newly updated (with bigotry), so-called 'international' version, which translates the original (which itself is a poor translation) into the unimaginative language of those who are obssessed with gay so-called 'lust'. I would post a page which provides a lengthy discussion of uncertainty and errors in translation, and of the origins of homophobia in biblical textual analysis, but i'm sure you'll just produce another second-rate translation to bolster your weak argument.

  • sean.k.owen - 2012-10-06 16:08

    SA government u need to recognise the crime and poverty in your country never mind the queers they will be just fine if u recognise their flag or not.

  • sean.k.owen - 2012-10-06 16:15

    Jama.5 God left Africa a long long time ago

  • maxrainer - 2012-10-06 16:25

    Another clear step in the wrong direction...soon people will be able to marry their pets-and that'll be legal too...very disappointing move

      irene.buthelezi.1 - 2012-10-06 18:18

      Oh boy, another sad little male.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-06 19:03 consent.

      james.hurley.5249 - 2012-10-06 19:38

      boring - slippery slope argument - no actual logic or reason to it. Next!

  • mthetheleli.ntshobololo.1 - 2012-10-06 16:31

    South Africa is the worst immoral country. nxa!!

      phoenix.px.5 - 2012-10-06 16:46

      Dear Mr SAA Customer Service Agent. You are an uneducated idiot.

      SarcasticAgnostic - 2012-10-06 22:05

      Umm Pheonix? Are you stalking poor Mthetheleli? Oh, wait, oops.... :-)

      omphile.umphimodise - 2012-10-08 11:10

      You were born out of wedlock, werent you? You are a fine one to talk about morality.

      adriaan1990 - 2012-10-08 23:31

      Ouma se padkos is... ntsa!

  • lovenergy - 2012-10-06 16:32

    Wow so many nasty comments. I can't be bothered what people do in the privacy of their homes. You are free to love whom ever you want.

  • mthetheleli.ntshobololo.1 - 2012-10-06 16:34

    South Africa is the worst immoral country. nxa!!

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-06 18:06

      Repetition is akin to indoctrination.

      martha.stclair - 2012-10-07 09:02

      Only because it is full of small mined, bigoted people like you!

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-07 21:56

      Mark, Dont tell the other atheists, they will disagree, but still repeat things....

  • andrez.kolesky - 2012-10-06 16:37

    I believe that inherent within the God-given right to the pursuit of happiness, is the equally God-given right to the pursuit of unhappiness. That is why I support gay marriage.

  • beverly.young3 - 2012-10-06 17:32

    Oh, as a 'retired' tourism person, I think this is fun. I bet Pieter Dirk Uys will be the first to raise this over the village of Darling. I would love to hear his comments.

      andrez.kolesky - 2012-10-06 17:36

      HA!!! HA!!! HA!!!

  • mark.beeld - 2012-10-06 17:44

    Love it!

  • llewellyn.fouche.9 - 2012-10-06 19:04

    This is awesome! South Africa is moving forward. Racists and judgemental narrow minded people don't have a place in this country anymore, it's your choice to stay behind and live in the past but the rest of us want to move forward and make equal rights possible for everyone ! God doesn't have anything to do with it! It is disrespectful and ignorant to post comments like that ! We have the right to be here and we have the right to live and choose who to love just like you ! Bestiality and being gay is not the same !!! Being gay is sleeping with the same sex NOT with animals duh !!

  • Bafana Joseph - 2012-10-06 19:11


      SarcasticAgnostic - 2012-10-06 22:01

      Yes, you are...

      omphile.umphimodise - 2012-10-08 11:14

      The day you were born it was the most disgusting day for South Africa. The midwife should have known better.

      Thermophage - 2012-10-08 15:48


  • Thobile Maimane - 2012-10-06 19:19

    God is not on leave and certainly didn't appoint any of us to be judges, He said we should love one another and He yet those who do not abide by His laws will not see His Kingdom. and if you are Christian enough, nothing should shock you at this stage but instead pray for our country and leaders and yourself as judging alone is a sin. And truth be told, with God a sin is a sin, not by size or how scandalous it may be. God bless South Africa!!!

      Khathu Tshililo - 2012-10-06 20:00

      thobile amen to that

      mbossenger - 2012-10-07 08:08

      "God is not on leave" - actually,he seems to have been AWOL for a few thousand years...

      fanie.weydeman - 2012-10-08 01:45

      God only seem awol 2 u or on leave as u put it because you don't recoise in Him. God looks after His children and although we can't prove it we know it, we can feel Gods love.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 10:29

      @fanie - that's nice. Holocaust and mass extinction of Jews (they say people's bodies were stretched from trying to climb up the walls of the gas chambers). Where was god? Rape of baby tshepang by six men. Where was god? Apartheid and the mass oppression of black people. Where was god? I'd like to know.

      edgar.magaya - 2012-10-08 16:53

      Lord have mercy on all of us. May your love permeate the fabric of this Godless society. May you please give us strength to seek your perfect gifts of life. Cry the beloved country lest it be judged, for God is not mocked. Galatians 6:7

  • enoch.ranga - 2012-10-06 21:32

    Just be part of the original flag. You ain't special than the next person who is straight(heterosexual).

      ppisciotta - 2012-10-08 13:34

      Do I get a flag for how I enjoy straight sex?

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 14:46

      @Pap homosexuality is not only about sex. I talk and laugh and enjoy every other non-physical aspect that you enjoy with your partner (unless, judging by your obssession, all you do is jump in the sack)

      marcojvr - 2012-10-08 15:17

      PAP is thinking with her vagina. Not everything is about sex PAP (oh wait you live in America - then for you it is)

      PAP - 2012-10-09 10:04

      Marco - I own homes in both America and SA. Retired under <55. You?

      PAP - 2012-10-09 10:09

      James - My husband hired a designer to remodel (well, not the physical work but the design and colour treatment) for our open kitchen/lounge here in the States. He was a "Flaming Queen" - and that by his own words. We both loved to chat w/him as he was so amusing. You're right, Gays do think more than just sex. A few are great with decor and fashion.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 10:14

      @PAP neither am I a 'flaming queen' (self-described or otherwise) nor solely interested in sex, nor am I good with decor or design. This is typical - that you view gay people with contempt except when they are beautifying your home. I wouldn't generalize about gay people though - we are just as diverse as straight people.

      PAP - 2012-10-09 10:28

      James - I'm done. Not because you are gay, but having read what little is available on your FB profile, I realize you are still young. You are stuck in your mindset and that is understandable for someone your age. My comment about the gay designer had nothing to do with you - yet you reverted the comment back to yourself as if I had you in mind - I didn't. And I purposly said "a few" were good with decor and fashion. I'm too seasoned to make generalizations. I am also too global in my travels and awareness as well. I'll chalk your comments up to your youth and defensivness over your chosen path. Have a good life - may it last many more years than expected for a male in SA and your situation. I'll afford you the last word in our thread. Ciao.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 10:44

      @Pap you don't understand basic argument, and claim that my being young somehow invalidates my ability as a critical thinker - I'm afraid it doesn't in the slightest. However, I was not diverting your statement to myself just for the sake of it, but pointing out that I am Not good with decor or fashion, so your reduction of all gay people to decorators is an attempt to deny our heterogeneity which fails. You're seasoned alright, seasoned with bitterness, and a pinch of patronising superiority. I'd happily die tomorrow if I never had to experience twisted, hate-filled bile such as your own again. That said, i'm here, alive, and not a statistic. Also, if gay people have a lower life expectancy in South Africa, I'd like to see your sources please. I'm sure they take into account the fact that gay people are more likely to be murdered (as in the case of the young man in Limpopo who was decapitated for being gay), and that bigoted views such as your own directly contribute to lower life expectancy (if this is indeed true). My youth can still see through your supposedly-worldly hatred and total, blinding ignorance.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-09 10:45

      PAP, That's condescending. It speaks volumes about your 'seasoned' views if you fail to recognise the need for a unifying symbol for a minority in SA.

      PAP - 2012-10-09 11:09

      Mark - Homosexuality is your pain to bear - not mine to accept.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 11:30

      @Pap - your mistaken claim to a complete separation 'Homosexuality is your pain to bear, not mine to accept' implies that you are not directly contributing to homosexuality-as-burden. The only thing making mine a burden, personally, is having to put right the lies of people such as yourself, who twist and distort the truth time and again. You pride yourself on age but evince no maturity, you pride yourself on your career but it was built on the backs of black people who were denied the apartheid-era education you so happily laud over people, in attempts to come off as superior, now.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-09 13:06

      PAP, Yes, that attitude is going to serve mankind well. Not to be rude, but you seem oddly immature for a person claiming both intellectual and age superiority....

      freedom.nation.5 - 2012-10-09 13:34

      @PAP u are so funny,,firstly u look over 65 LMK. U look like a coloured woman probably married to a white man and back in the day the group act was a taboo.. A straight person will never understand the obstacles a gay person goes thru. Firstly everyone has their interpetation on the bible. So a person born with down syndrome needs to casted out of society, cos they are different. secondly i doNT see how GOD will judge me for loving, (being committed) to some one of the same sex and not judge you for hating some one you dont even know. Its people like you that have a negative effect on youngsters who feel they have not way out and end up killing themselves, you dont choose to be LGBT, you do choose to be true to yourself. I know of a few people that have families and later discovered that they are not free. PLUS GAY SEX IS HOT!!!

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-09 15:18

      PAP, Sadly, your career is not enough to tip the scale against your apparent immaturity towards any other opinion than your own. I really could not care less about your personal opinion on homosexuals - years of dealing with bigots like you and worse, made my skin thick. Why would you continuously throw in your so-called success in this conversation? I'm 26, a trainee accountant, barely able to pay all the bills. Does that difference give you ANY advantage in this context? Really, grow up.

      PAP - 2012-10-09 15:43

      Mark - keep at it. At 26 I hadn't started to see daylight financially. But it came - only by hard work. I say what I say just to demonstrate that an Indian woman, single at the time, working during Apartheid was able to succeed. It doesn't make me smarter, but it does show it was and is possible. No concessions. No feeling I was a martyr. No feeling of persecution. I didn't have time for that. And no, I didn't have a flag either.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-09 15:46

      PAP, Thank you for a level response. And I get what you are saying. Unfortunately, we can not ignore the realities. Neither will I keep my mouth shut when bigotry towards homosexuals is displayed. To see what I'm talking about, click on my name, I wrote article about homophobic murders in SA. PS, it should come already, I'm impatiently awaiting my wealth ;-)

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 16:01

      @Pap your generalized comments about 'gays' are untrue, I personally found freedom's resorting to that a silly and unnecessary move, knowing that it was intended to get your back up (though you did take the bait). I thought you said you were done? Homosexuality is not an illness. While I can't change your views, I can also state my view which is that the majority of countries *officially* recognize that homosexuality is not an illness. I'm also free to put right your patent lies. I do not have a 'condition' and I consider you more flawed than I will ever be.

      PAP - 2012-10-09 16:45

      Mark - I like the saying "life is what happens while we are making our plans." I don't think I could have made it as an Indian woman in today's SA economy. I did well during Apartheid because I worked within the system. I was once too black for the whites; then I became too white for the blacks. I know what it means to be considered "different" or "less human" than someone else. My nationality wears on my face. I can not hide who I am nor do I want to. But being Indian says nothing about my sexual orientation nor should it. That is my private business. I find it counter productive for Gays to push their sexual orientation upon society. Asking for acceptance simply because of sexual orientation is going about it the wrong way (my opinion). Like everyone else, Gays should first consider themselves equal to everyone else; challenged to be productive citizens in their community by adding value to the lives of those around them. Leave the sexual orientation out of the equation when in the public sector.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 18:04

      @Pap what you fail to understand is that gay people are discriminated against both within and without the 'public sector'. As long as there are people being beaten to death or raped for being homosexual, I will speak out, and i'm damned if I will let a bigoted woman who loves money more than her country tell me what to do. You claim such a moral higher ground, but you couldn't even be bothered to stay here and do something to help solve the country's issues. This is typical - as for sexual orientation, you judge away from afar, just as you judge your ex-country.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-10 06:55

      PAP, Complacency never works in the favor of any cause. Look at Martin Luther King Jr. Do you think the revolution would have started, or even been introduced, if everyone took a blind eye to the blatant atrocities commited? The more we speak up, the harder it will be for government to ignore this issues. Homosexuality is my issue, I will promote it. I can not be the voice for Indians, or any other marginalised group - it is their responsibility to challenge the stigma.

      PAP - 2012-10-10 12:40

      Mark - I agree with you. And I have the right to defend against what I believe is moral decay in society. We will never agree on this point perhaps as "moral decay" is a generalized term covering many things beyond sexual preference and behaviors. But that does not mean we can not live safely and in peace. I won't call for your stoning because you are gay. Likewise don't critize me for believing your lifestyle is immoral and contrary to the survival of our species. We perhaps have more things to agree on than disagree.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-10 12:52

      @Pap - please provide me with scientific evidence supporting the notion that homosexuality is threatening 'the survival of our species' (or is this just more empty, bigoted rhetoric?) As for so-called 'moral decay' - Xtians (as you call them) have been paragons of moral decay for centuries. Remember the witch hunts? Women who were even slightly eccentric (you'd probably be considered amongst them) were tried without any due process and burned, as you no doubt know. One of the means of finding them 'guilty' was holding them under water - if they survived, they were considered to be 'guilty'. What a laugh your beloved notion of 'moral decay' is. Society has never been moral, and nor is homosexuality 'immoral'. There have always been good and bad people. Too bad you're on the bad, judgemental and irrationally-bigoted side.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-10 12:55

      @Pap I'd also like to hear your thoughts on 'moral decay' within the high-up administration of major religions. For example - why did Ratzinger cover up instances of child abuse in the catholic church? Also, could it be possible that priests who molest children choose the church because of its false claim to be able to magically cure urges? In this scenario, the so-called moral higher ground provides a convenient way for those who truly are morally bankrupt to hide their sickness. Food for thought.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-10 13:02

      PAP, Yes, granted. However, society claims to be civilised, yet we can not even accept diversity (of course, not where it harms another). Society needs to be reminded that acceptance is a two way street. For example, being gay makes me part of a marginalised culture in SA. However, I am also a white Afrikaans male, with indirect responsibility for the atrocities committed by others. If we are brutally honest with ourselves, we all are both on the receiving end and the giving end of bigotry.

      PAP - 2012-10-10 13:23

      Mark - I could not agree more. So if we afford each other the right to a peaceful life without demanding we agree on all issues, then I think we have a win-win situation. I can only compare your situation to what I know in my own - woman, Indian, Jew. 3 points of marginalization perhaps. I try to live my life in peace. I don't ask for a flag to be officially recognized in honor of my "marginalized" group(s) in society. I think homosexuals would fair better if they didn't push their agenda so strongly where they are not wanted. Build your own communities, like the Jews and like the Indians in Durban. Don't pressure the world for acceptance. Self acceptance should be all you need for happiness.

      freedom.nation.5 - 2012-10-10 13:49

      @PAP all i hear is blah blah blah me me me.. so selfcentred. Arent indian ladies normally Domesticated, cleaning house and having babies. Maybe you were married to an Indian and the foreign husband liberated you. so the same way to are throwing ur husband in our face, if it was not for the struggle and the Abolishing of the group act u could not be so PROUD of your relationship. SO HENCE THE FACT WE LGBT ARE PROUD COZ WE TOO can have relationships that are recognised in this country. seeing you like to view FB profiles. I noticed you are married for about 2 years. I have been in a relationship for 11 YEARS what makes us different??????? And please dont judge on having / talking about sex, there are plenty str8 people out there that are worse. I will be starting a family next. (I think you were so career driven that your clock had run out of time) but unfortunatly we can not bear our own, but there nothing wrong with loving a child that a str8 person has 'thrown away" ..

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-10 14:32

      PAP, Definitely something to think about. Thank you for the insights.

      PAP - 2012-10-10 15:23

      Freedom. This is my 2nd marriage. My first husband who was Afrikaans passed leaving me with children to raise myself. The youngest is now preparing for University in America as she was not the right colour to gain admission to University in SA. I was never a domestic although I've had some for hire to help around the house. My present marriage is not yet 6 months old. So I don't know who's FB profile you have been reading.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-10 19:42

      @Pap I don't know why Mark is entertaining such a hateful person as yourself. All I know s there is no such thing as a gay agenda, I for one do not need your, or anyone else's, acceptance. What I will do is call out everyone who refers to an imaginary 'gay agenda' or refers degradingly to me simply for my sexuality. I don't call that 'non-acceptance' - I call it downright, blatant rudeness and I won't tolerate yours or anyone else's. You can say what you like but ultimately you're a small, narrow-minded woman with nothing better to do than slur a whole entire group of heterogenous people who you couldn't even be bothered to get to know, except when you need their services as decorators. If anyone should be full of shame, it is you.

  • enoch.sphola - 2012-10-07 05:14

    This country is unbecoming mxn

      SarcasticAgnostic - 2012-10-07 08:46


  • karen.t.hawkey - 2012-10-07 11:42

    Guys, why must just about every news article get turned into some sort of discriminatory debate (actually not debate, rather caustic mud slinging!)? Those of you who are pleased about the flag's acceptance - congratulations! :-) Those of you who aren't - is it going to affect you in any way? Really? Or is this just weekend boredom on the most part?

  • will.cronje.7 - 2012-10-07 12:26

    I truly understand why Africa will always be seen as the third world after reading all these comments.

      khathutshelo.muafrica - 2012-10-07 16:18

      Can u enlighten us why?

      PAP - 2012-10-09 10:16

      SA will always be a third world not because of the gays. Just look around you and figure it out.

      PAP - 2012-10-09 15:05

      freedin - Gays are not taking over, nor are they a problem to the issues facing SA. SA's problem is turing over control to a majority who were and still are, not ready to manage it. I did well during Apartheid. I have no complaints. I gained a very good education that allowed me to achieve and bring a few others up the financial ladder with me. Nothing wrong with earning a good salary after hard work.

  • will.cronje.7 - 2012-10-07 12:30

    Oh and my fellow straight people , if you wanna blame someone , blame yourselves. Your are the people breeding and making more gay babies. But please don't stop , we need our fabulous family to grow!

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-07 20:12

      babies are not born gay, they are asexual in nature, the rest to what they change to, is a choice based on preferences and orientation...

      frik.mcdonald.9 - 2012-10-07 21:38

      Exactly, using the REALLY crap excuse that your born that way is just stupid. I could just go around and claim i was born with stealing in my blood?? Fools

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 09:57

      @ hermann - a few questions. If you have a preference for, say, tea over coffee, is that preference a conscious choice? Did you wake up and say 'I think i'm going to prefer tea to coffee now'. Now imagine a country in which people call tea-drinkers 'abominations to nateure' [sic] and where tea-drinkers are raped with broken bottles to 'teach them a lesson' (this actually happened in SA). Would it be logical to 'choose' to drink tea? Why would anyone choose a beverage which attracted so much irrational hatred. Unless it was a 'preference' which was so strong, and so natural, that they couldn't live any other way. Also, does my liking tea affect, in any way, your access to and enjoyment of coffee? think it over.

      moi.carla.1980 - 2012-10-08 10:02

      You compare sexual orientation to being a thief??? And then you call other people fools...

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 10:58

      James, are you comparing sexual behaviour with like or dislike tea or coffee or choosing the one over the other...? (shaking head in amazement...) Choosing coffee over tea or visa verse remains a choice, is it the same with one sexuality?... I agree, settled... BTW One sexuality isnt a civil right, just a privilege... care to disagree...

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 11:06

      @hermann - I said a Preference, not a choice. Too bad you're a careless, factually inaccurate reader. You completely missed the point of my analogy, namely: In a situation where LGBTQI have to endure endless, ungracious denigration by hate-filled people such as yourself who lead such unexamined lives that they only see faults and 'sin' elsewhere, who the f would 'choose' to be gay? It would defy all logic. Why choose something that is undeniably harder than being a comfortable heterosexual, with a comfortable wife, a comfortable 2.5 kids, a comfortable position of unimpeachable rectitude in the community? If I could have chosen my sexuality, you'd be sure I would have chosen something which would provide the least experience of viciousness and unfounded holier-than-thou moral superiority

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 12:04

      James, Please highlight the difference between a preference and a choice.... you will know your are "screwed", when it takes you to the same articles/ links... lol James, I dont disagree that picking on and treating gays as sub human or sub standard is correct, it it reason they use to justify themselves, like "I was born that way, animals do it, so it is natural, or it is my genes I inherited... etc... That is what is revolting to me... And for five snakes, stop thinking straight people or i am superior... it is only when one encounter one that disagree with that way of thinking one uses that argument or excuse... damn man, turn around and take it like man... lol

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-08 12:37

      Herman, Choice is acting upon a preference or suppressing it.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 15:04

      In fact, you are both wrong. A simple dictionary search, which you could easily have done Hermann, underscores the difference, namely: choice. n. An act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.Preference. n. A greater liking for one alternative over another or others. Now choice implies an active decision, based on 'two or more possibilities'. There is no other possibility to my being gay. Preference does not imply a decision, but an inclination. Which is innate rather than characterized by decision. And your phrase 'take it like a man' is typically insulting, heteronormative rhetoric. The notion that there is such a thing as 'like a man' as though any way of seeing things other than your own is 'unmanly'. Who made you the benchmark of masculinity? It puts no chink in my personal armour whether you view me as masculine or not. I don't need to pretend i'm this or that, masculine or feminine, but just be myself. If only you could accept others as they are, you'd be a stronger and more likeable for it.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 15:32

      james (Oh my, I am inclined to agree, but will choose not to... If one prefers one thing over another, a choice was made, consciously or unconsciously.... there was many possibility, the homo-, hetero-, bi-, and Asexual, so how does an asexual being (baby) go to the other option, he chooses to...

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 15:49

      @hermann - there is no such thing as an unconscious choice. Speak to any gay person (I doubt you have spoken to any) and they will likely tell you something along the lines of when they realized (not decided) they were gay. I rest my case. I think I know better, as a gay man, what I have chosen and not chosen than you do. The very fact that the whole 'ex-gay' movement in America, which tries to 'correct' gay people's desires and turn them into straight people, has failed, proves my point. Choice has squat-all to do with it.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-08 17:33

      James, Agreed. But Herman here, stubbornly refuses to let us into his vast library of peer reviewed articles substantiating his opinion. Don't you find that curious as well? And that after I gave him ample material to substantiate my opinion, on various threads.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 20:18

      Mark, your thread have been against genes and against gene theory. The few that you have mentioned, some of it said it wasnt a choice, but attached no evidence to back it up... Was it done with a purpose... To spare feelings... I think so, now proof me wrong...

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 20:23

      James, if no unconscious decission, why did anyone decide which hand inclination they ought to have... there are many, you dont have control over all your movements, and reactions( like breating, heartbeating, yet they reach message from your brain to do that... If not a choice , what is it? Science are debating the gene thing... So we cant do it... :) Answer mw once with backed up evidence...

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 20:34

      Further, if it is a gene thing, does it also makes us choose a person of a specific race, even the person falls withing the preferences and orientation.... ? afterall it makes us choose the sex of our parther, sure the race is "handle within the gene theory?

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 20:46

      Here is something, the translation is also incorporated

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 22:05

      @hermann firstly several of your comments make no sense - if you are going to express bigoted views in English, learn the language. Secondly - the English in that article you posted, which I wasted my time downloading and trying to fathom, is possibly worse than yours - a true achievement. I did note, however, that it contains absolutely no reference to homosexuality or choice. It mentions gender but buries any useful observations in academic jargon. What's more, gender and sexuality are not the same. A 1000-level gender studies class would teach you as much. Keep trying though.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-09 07:08

      Herman, It is apparent that you pose a false dichotomy towards the functioning of human behavior. It is not a case of 'either genes or choice. There is much more at stake here. If it was that simple, all illnesses would have been curable.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-09 07:46

      Mark, but homosexuality isnt a sickness, is it? james, Please stop using the language thing as an argument, it is childish...

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-09 08:17

      Herman, Such a blatant red herring does your cause no favors. I'm sure you got the drift of my argument?

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-09 09:13

      Mark, you and James conviently skip over questions I ask and now says it is a red herring... if i ask if it is a sickness, because you mention curring sicknesses... Anyway... I have post several links on thread above... please respond to them...

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 09:44

      @ Hermann it is not childish, the language thing is a serious problem as to take your argument seriously I actually need to understand what you are saying. It's called communication, and it is essential in an argument. I will not be following your links above, as I can see you have cherry-picked information from sources which are also non-credible in the extreme - Wikipedia is an interesting amateur's resource for introductory ideas, but by no means accurate in most articles. You claim we ignore your questions, but you conveniently ignore cogent criticism, such as the fact that the rubbish PDF you posted said absolutely squat-all about sexual orientation. Until you can find a reliable, well-written and relevant source I consider your argument 100% invalid.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-09 10:36

      James, Like you said communication is the key. Although the main info comes from wikipedia, there are exernal reference and article. So by choice you reject the info. You are not looking to be convience, you only seek attention... So use you lame argument of language and grammer, it doesnt change the semantics between a preference or an orientation, If you are unhappy about your sexuality... dont blame others for it, it wasnt our fault or choice, preference or orientation. We( I) dont hate you or fear you... Why should I... ?

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 10:52

      @hermann well your proselytizing attempts to convince all and sundry that being gay is a choice (and thus, by implication, changeable) is tantamount to hatred in my book. Your links are incoherent in their quality of verifiability, and your arguments are at times incoherent (though, interestingly, you become much more coherent when you are attacking what I have said than when you are stating your own position). Again, until you can produce quality research conducted by respected academics (and not a 'peer-reviewed' journal whose editorial board consists solely of academics from Spanish universities - talk about scraping the barrel), I rest my case.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-09 12:00

      james, I hope this grammar is fine... You have delivered no counter agrument, to proof your point... I accepted that as proof of you agreeing be it unwillingly...

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 12:17

      @hermann - no it's actually incorrect 'proof' should be 'prove' (well technically it's spelling not grammar - but I know how to make that distinction). The fact you can't even proofread your own pithy arguments shows what a poor reader you are, no wonder you thought that pseudo-scientific spanish article (four co-authors couldn't find a point to make? Really?) had merit. It suggests your deficit of intelligence. Keep trying. You have yet to produce a cogent argument worth counter-arguing.

      freedom.nation.5 - 2012-10-09 13:50

      @herman, yes babies are born gay, children make that association at a young age... question if your daughter should say PAPA ek hou van meisies what are u gonna do? Bet her? Rape her? pray for her? LOVE her?

  • naeem.essop - 2012-10-07 13:43

    I've never seen the comments filled with this much mixed reactions, generally spotting a lot of homophobes here, say it's not so?

  • bongane.zwane.948 - 2012-10-07 15:27

    Early this year on a Holy day it was Gays all over S.A tv hmm

      freedom.nation.5 - 2012-10-09 13:57

      hey bongane what the hell r u taking about. the other night there were so many blacks on tv..

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 16:04

      @freedom you're doing gay people a disservice with your racist comments. No-one likes a discriminating fool.

  • kerri.barlow.5 - 2012-10-07 16:32

    Nice one! A step forward. Hope everyone enjoyed themselves yesterday was so sad not to be able to make it. Have heard it was an awesome time had by all. Light and love!

  • philemon.khantsi - 2012-10-07 17:25

    Why can't they just find their own planet and leave us the normal beings behind, once and forever!

      alaina.erasmus - 2012-10-07 17:47

      What normal people? You mean the \normal\ people who steal, rape and murder? When was the last time you heard of a gay person murdering soneone? You think you are better because you are straight? Your ignorance and intolerance is disgusting.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-07 20:10

      Real Mature aliana....

      alaina.erasmus - 2012-10-07 22:36

      Your spelling and grammer is really bad, Hermann. At least be bothered to spell my name right, it's not hard to look at the screen to spell it properly.\r\n\r\nAnd Frik, to some people being gay is natural. Just because you don't think it is, doesn't mean there is something wrong with them. Judging people based on their personal preferences is lame and closed minded.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 08:22

      Alaina, My spelling and grammer is bad?Just because I wrote 3 words including switching two letters in your name? The original comment stands firm, seeing what your argument is... If you say being gay is natural, how do u reach that conclusion? Se,e life will continue naturally if there is man/female interaction, without technology advances. How will the human race survive if all people thought being gay is natural, although to make choices is natural... See Alaina, dispite your silly argument, I dont judge, you do... See I have many gay friends and yes, they agree(most except the few on N24) they choose that lifestyle... Real adults...

      mbossenger - 2012-10-08 08:31

      "If you say being gay is natural, how do u reach that conclusion?" - because it occurs in nature?

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 09:19

      mbossenger, a lot of things happen in nature... When nature shows its homosexual side (animals etc)is the reason why animals behave so, the same reason humans do...? Human do it for love and fellowships amought other, Why do animals do it...? natural release of an urge...?

      alaina.erasmus - 2012-10-08 09:55

      No Hermann, your spelling and grammar (and I do apologize because I misspelt grammar in my first post) is bad because you wrote Mature with a capital M, you did not put a comma after the word mature and ellipsis dots only has three full stops, not four. And you misspelt my name TWICE. You want to say I am immature because I made a point that "normal people" that Philemon refers to, i.e. straight people, are not better because they rape and steal and murder, etc which is MORE disturbing than LOVING someone the same gender as you. What is so immature about that, may I ask? You ask how will live survive if all people decided to be gay? Well first of all NOT all people have decided to be gay, obviously. Then there is such a thing as artificial insemination- I personally know of a lesbian couple who had a natural born baby because of this. Does that answer your question? Why is it such an issue to you the way people want to live?

      moi.carla.1980 - 2012-10-08 10:03

      Who are you to decide what is/isn't normal??

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 10:53

      Alana, "No Hermann, your spelling and grammar (and I do apologize because I misspelt grammar in my first post) is bad because you wrote Mature with a capital M, you did not put a comma after the word mature and ellipsis dots only has three full stops, not four. And you misspelt my name TWICE. " Thank you, teacher Aliana ( deliberate).... Now learn something about the difference between a (civilright to something and a privilege... Secondly, artificial insemination isnt natural occurance, or could you direct me to the animal species that do this in nature... I did exclude it "without technology advances." if you paid attention... See I personal used that same technology with my last child, since me and my wife fail to failed any natural success, and she is a bundle of joy!! "Why is it such an issue to you the way people want to live? " my point exactly... Your want other to feel the same you do, but if they dont they are ignorant... get a flag for a civil right, being gay isnt one, it is privilege...

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 11:09

      @hermann - freedom to be homosexual Is a civil right, as enshrined in our constitution, and not a privilege. If you don't like it, move to one of the last 8 or 9 countries in the world which still think it's acceptable to use homosexuals as scapegoats for the masses' lust for violence and moral superiority.

      omphile.umphimodise - 2012-10-08 11:23

      Then you wouldn't have known your dad. Be glad gays don't have their own planet.

      mark.beeld - 2012-10-08 11:49

      Herman, "t a flag for a civil right, being gay isnt one, it is privilege..." Bullsh*t. Then heterosexuality is a privilege as well. Why do you think it is a privilege to life out who you are? Sexuality is a right, and it's respect should be demanded.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 12:23

      James, "@hermann - freedom to be homosexual Is a civil right, as enshrined in our constitution, and not a privilege. If you don't like it, move to one of the last 8 or 9 countries in the world which still think it's acceptable to use homosexuals as scapegoats for the masses' lust for violence and moral superiority. " A civil right, like you mentioned is to not discriminate against a person of a certain sexuality, thus you have that freedom, and is a privilege, the right is, not to be discriminated agaianst... It is fine line Similar to a freedom of religion, it is priviledge, but maybe not for an atheist, they want freedrom from religion... Is the latter a civil right, ... they are not discriminated against, and everyone has a freedom to any religion of his/her choice even if you are not religious, you cant be discrimated upon... freedom of religion doesnt take away one rights, it allows a certain privilege ...

      alaina.erasmus - 2012-10-08 14:02

      Hermann, I don't have time to argue with a person I don't even know about something that isn't even any of our business. I'm still wondering why this upsets you so much but like I said, don't have the time. Open your mind little and read this article and then talk about how it's just a matter of choice:

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 15:06

      sorry hermann, could you repeat that in a more coherent, structured statement, I actually struggled to follow your argument re the fine line. Maybe the line is so fine you yourself can't see it, but I'd like greater clarity in that argument. Thanks.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-09 10:35

      James, Will it help to convience you? I doubt it...

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 10:55

      @hermann 'convience' - I rest my case. In such a short sentence, you cannot even get the most important word right. This makes me naturally sceptical regarding your ability to read research carefully, which in turn makes me strongly doubt the amount of thought and reason that have gone into your unfounded conclusion that homosexuality is a choice.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-09 12:09

      James, you never had a case...

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 12:20

      @hermann - that's right, I never did have one come to think of it. Whereas you had an insupportable one, the notion that homosexuality is a choice. Rather than have a case, I had your unfounded claims to contest. Which I did quite successfully considering you still have not found a proof other than a reference to political lesbianism (which is adopted as a political stance as an exceptional scenario which is far from the rule)

      freedom.nation.5 - 2012-10-09 13:59

      LMK for normal philemon.. u r so funny being black is not normal

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 16:05

      @freedom bugger off with your racist bull****

  • alaina.erasmus - 2012-10-07 18:02

    Righteous people really need to get off their high flipping horses and relax. There are worse things happening out there yet you want to have such strong feelings about the way people want to live their lives. I mean really, what happend to freedom? It is a FLAG people. You are getting your backs up for something that is LEGAL and, if you could behave like ADULTS, acceptable. I am more put off by a straight couple giving serious PDA or straight couples swinging that gay people. Rather keep your energy for REAL issues- rape, murder, the failing economy, etc. The ignorance and intolerance in this country is terrible.

  • devenjoey.theron - 2012-10-07 18:53

    as if the anc haven't enough to deal with

      paul.kershaw.18 - 2012-10-08 08:20

      Nope the ANC obviously don't have enough to deal with or else this country wouldn't be in the ointment like it is. Id they spend more time on doing their job life here would be better for all its people. A Pride parade or three from ALL groups of people in South Africa would be far better than the riots and tragedy we see unfold around us every day.

  • mabeeden - 2012-10-07 20:23

    That is sooooo cool!

  • kumbulani - 2012-10-07 21:50

    How does one become gay, lesbian etc. Its nt by creation but by choice. Its a knwn fact yet we give a right to a sin. Rather they legalise all forms of sins than selecting. Its legalising sme sexual adverts in newspapers and on TV. Funny enough we say alcohol is bad, smoking is bad but sex is good then we go again and say prevent HIV. What a confused world

      mbossenger - 2012-10-08 08:16

      Despite all research on this topic showing it not to be a choice you have remained blisfully ignorant and posted this comment anyway.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 08:37

      mbossenger, Lets do this... If one sexaulity is not affected by choice or genes( science still debates this) what is it... To have a certain behaviour isnt a civil right, merely a privilege? Do you disagree? And why?

      mbossenger - 2012-10-08 09:15

      Still harping on the choice issue? A few things - if it really was just a choice, why do so many homosexual people have such issues "coming out"? Surely if it was their choice they would simply state it as such asnd be done with it? Secondly, why would someone choose a lifestyle that is still so frowned upon in many societies, especially those dominated by religion? You also seem to be confused about the issue of choice - you seem to think if it's not caused by genetics, then it's simply a choice one makes; however, my understanding is that it's a combination of genetic and environmental factors that cause homosexuality. Lastly - even if it is a choice, what difference does it make? It's the choice made by 2 consenting adults so why should we concern ourselves with it?

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 09:50

      mbossenger, Why are you incapable of answer a question? After you answered it, i will respond to your comments... I will answer yours to the best ability I have... "A few things - if it really was just a choice, why do so many homosexual people have such issues "coming out"?" best you ask them... No authority on the matter, but i can say I wont be ashamed if I aligned myself with a certain view... "Surely if it was their choice they would simply state it as such asnd be done with it?" Now aint that true... Yet there has to be a flag for a certain privilege and not a right " Secondly, why would someone choose a lifestyle that is still so frowned upon in many societies, especially those dominated by religion?" Maybe the same reason I will eata certain meat, where the religion of that country states it being unclean... It still remain my choice, and a right to eat(food, which is a civil right...

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 10:00

      @kumbulani - you have the choice to educate yourself with regard to the question of 'choice' or remain stuck in the feudal age.

      mbossenger - 2012-10-08 10:46

      "One sexuality is affected by choice or genes" - wrong - sexualityas a whole is affected by genes and environmental issues; simple as that...

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-08 12:27

      mbossenger, The question was "If one sexaulity is not affected by choice or genes( science still debates this) what is it...? Science still debates the causes(genes), mine is the "choice" thing... if not either of these to what is it, list the enviromental factors you state...

      kumbulani - 2012-10-08 12:29

      Gay issues mustn't be entertained for real. The world is just sick. Reason why they are allowing it is coz they are controlling the finances etc. Besides that they wldnt have allowed it

      mbossenger - 2012-10-08 13:13

      Your question makes no sense - it's not "one" sexuality is caused by genetics, one isn't - sexuality as a whole is cinfluenced by genetics and environmental factors.

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 15:08

      @Kumbulani gay people are not controlling 'the finances', this is just empty rhetoric with no substantiating reason. Please show me the economic research which gives this small minority such incredible economic power. Thanks.

      kumbulani - 2012-10-08 20:08

      Am nt toking of the smal players in SA controlling finances. Its big mansons, illuminatis, catholics etc who preach satanism who control the world coffers allowing such activity and u thnk you cool with it. One day you going to be answerable for it my friends

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-09 07:33

      mbossenger, Demostrate one's sexuality is influence by your genes, as science still debates it. If my "choice" theory isnt acceptable either, what is the cause of one sexual preferences?

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 12:24

      @hermann - I can't (unlike you) say with certainty why it is not a choice, though I have read countless articles which suggest biological factors (such as the fact that if one identical twin is gay, there is a much higher chance that the other one will be too, indicating a biological rather than voluntary cause). The argument about biology versus choice is irrelevant in the larger scheme in any case, as even if it were a choice, it says nothing about homosexuality itself, only that it's one form of sexuality out of many which people *hypothetically* choose, which does not give other sexual orientations greater 'correctness', but simply indicates that sexuality is a spectrum.

      hermann.bohmer - 2012-10-09 14:35

      I have read fairytale too...

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 16:06

      @hermann yeah that s**t article you posted was a pretty entertaining one. Got any more?

  • john.smit.121772 - 2012-10-07 22:01

    I thought it was the springbok rugby flag, it is appropriate.

      Osito - 2012-10-08 16:02

      According david.vanas.3 gay people are not allowed to be rugby supporters and the rugby players don't want to be associated with us... shame...

  • paul.kershaw.18 - 2012-10-08 08:16

    Interesting reaction on a Monday morning. It seems some heads are already hot and looking for verification of their belief system. The real point here is that if SA's constitution truly worked then there would be no need for any other flag and any group of people could be united under the SA flag. The sad truth tho is that the constitution hasn't done its job and intolerance of any one else who is 'different' is obviously still practiced. Look around people, its not only the SA Flag that flies on many buildings and places, there's often another flag flown along-side it, especially in areas of importance such as a traditional leader, tribal kings and places with old history. What's another one that's at least officially recognized? Its about recognition that's not being honoured. Do you honour SA's constitution by practicing what it try's to create or is it something separate and not for you to work with?

  • mrsku11 - 2012-10-08 08:56

    who are we to judge what is right and what is wrong? We are not God. As a believer it saddens me how many "christians" judge and condemn others as what they've seen in their eyes as wrong. Bible teaches us to Love and I barely see any Love from the majority of you religious bound Christians. On a side note: I think you guys could have done a better job with the flag :P Wheres the creativity?

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-08 10:02

      you're awesome. I'd all but given up on Christians following the more important messages of the Bible. With so many people cherry-picking passages which enable them to feel superior to (and more 'human' than) other people, it's good to know some people read the book without such a narrow agenda.

      moi.carla.1980 - 2012-10-08 10:04

      Well said mrsku11. Agree with you 100%

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 09:54

      @Faizal I'm assuming you are not equated with the history of the interpretation (hermeneutics) of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible. Firstly, Lot (supposed paragon of virtue) offers the crowds his daughters in exchange for travellers the crowds want to 'know'. This is instructive: 'The interpretation now accepted by many Biblical scholars (excluding the most evangelical sects) is as follows: Lot was a ger, a sojourner, a resident alien in Sodom. He had certain civic obligations in return for the protection which the city offered him, and there are indications that he was unpopular in the city. He did not have a right to open his house to foreigners, and the citizens of Sodom were merely demanding to see the credentials of these two foreigners, that is, to "know" whence they came and their intentions. Lot had to refuse, however, because he himself was under the obligations of the Jewish code of hospitality to his guests. He offered the Sodomites his daughters as the first appeasement that came to his mind, not as a heterosexual substitute for a homosexual demand. The cities were then destroyed for not recognizing the obligations of hospitality, and the whole story is a moral allegory on the dire effects of inhospitality.'

      james.hurley.1401 - 2012-10-09 11:34


      freedom.nation.5 - 2012-10-09 14:01

      @ faizal not that only exist in the muslim faith