Simelane appointment invalid - ConCourt

2012-10-05 10:55

Johannesburg - The Constitutional Court on Friday ruled that President Jacob Zuma's appointment of Menzi Simelane as national director of public prosecutions was invalid.

In reading the judgment, Judge Zac Yacoob said that in the unanimous judgment they reached a number of legal conclusions including that the appointment of the NDPP was not a matter to be determined by the subjective opinion of the president.

"It was rather a jurisdictional prerequisite to be determined objectively," he said.

"Dishonesty is inconsistent with the conscientiousness and integrity required for the proper execution of the responsibilities of the NDPP."

Ginwala inquiry

On May 8, the court heard an application by the Democratic Alliance to confirm a Supreme Court of Appeal ruling that the decision to employ Simelane was invalid.

The report of the Ginwala commission of inquiry into Simelane's predecessor Vusi Pikoli's fitness to hold office had raised concerns about Simelane's understanding of the relationship between the justice department, where he was a director general at the time of the Pikoli events, and the National Prosecuting Authority.

Yacoob said Simelane was evaluated in terms of the Ginwala inquiry.

"[We] conclude that the evidence was contradictory and on its face indicative of Mr Simelane's honesty. It raises serious questions about Mr Simelane's conscientiousness, integrity, and credibility," said Yacoob.

Simelane decisions not invalid

"The decisions taken and acts performed by Mr Menzi Simelane and actions by the [NDPP] are not invalid merely because of the invalidity of his appointment."

DA leader Helen Zille told reporters she believed it was important to keep politics outside the law, as political parties would use the law to persecute their political enemies and not prosecute them.

"If that happens you can't have democracy. The independence of the National Prosecuting Authority is absolutely important in a democracy to every person's rights," Zille said.

"When you can't be sure of the independence of the National Prosecuting Authority -- you don't know if charges are laid for political reasons or if there are legal reason for these charges."

  • mphotant.thelejane - 2012-10-05 11:01

    I need adequate detail to comment on this matter, please News24 follow-up on this outcome.

      max.reynecke - 2012-10-05 11:22

      Detail doesn't matter, the ANC will get this ruling over ruled again with something like the Con court is interfering with Zuma's powers...what a circus this country has become. - 2012-10-05 11:23

      Personally I think every single new government employee should be graded and inspected by the con court. lol wow what a great day that will be

      ann.murray.9279 - 2012-10-05 11:26

      Well done for challenging this appointment DA!

      nosiphom.mazibuko - 2012-10-05 11:45

      @Siyabongo - Your pint being??? The constitutional court that made the decision is led by a black man, so where does the white supremacy come in here? soem of you racists are just dumb and blinded by racism - both balck and white! The appointment of Simelane was extremely bad full stop - irrespective of his colour - as bad as the appointment of the Boss of the ConCourt!

      rbphiri - 2012-10-05 11:47

      Wow they only realize that now. Perfect classical, satirical example of Sheryl Cwele and the minister of "intelligence". Uhmmm I thought all that white powder was for a cake.

      nosiphom.mazibuko - 2012-10-05 11:47

      Incidentally Siyabonga - no-one is contesting the appointment of the ConCourt boss - bad as it was, but there was an attempt to make it look clean, so no one has grounds to contest it. The Simelane one was rootten hence could be successfully contested. The country is not for Zuma to dish out jobs to his pals - if he owes them, he must use his own money to pay them - not the taxpayers money - like he is busy building his palace!

      nrgx.nrg - 2012-10-05 11:52

      "Education is our passport to the future, for tomorrow belongs to the people who prepare for it today."

      lsfreak - 2012-10-05 12:04

      @ nosiphom.mazibuko, well said... I agree in both cases. It a case of the cANCer trying to tighten it's grip on power here in RSA just like another dictatorship around the world. Take a close look @ Madbobwe that lil man controls the police, the courts and the Gov with he's appointments, same is trying to happen here... Just my 10c worth

      rontheogre - 2012-10-05 12:13

      Siyabonga, if we have to believe every generalisation made by Robert Jenson do we also have to do so with what Reverend Manning(a black man) says in his videos on Youtube. Then not just the white man, but the black man also "has a problem", as Manning put it. If the white tailored society, as you put it, has managed to survive the ravages of the past 18 years, then you by inference suggest that the black man is incapable, not equipped to handle it or somehow inferior when compared to the white man. Shame on you! There is however another option, it is an excuse to justify being mediocre, lazy, and getting handouts. How, in your mind, does the chequered history of Simelani connect to the attributes that you bestow on us whites, or did we force him to make crappy decisions, too? Wake up and take responsibility for your own life(I know it seems like hard work, but you won't die from it) and stop acting like a lame duck just for pity and more handouts. Never in history of any country has appointments of government servants been overturned so often as in the recent history in SA under Zuma. And that by a bench occupied, not by a socially engineered whites, but by a majority of black judges. Now I will leave the other comments to call you the appropriate names.

      godfrey.welman - 2012-10-05 12:18

      @nrgx...must agree "EDUCATION IS OUR PASSPORT TO THE FUTURE" so please hold the ANC Govt. accountable to deliver on it!!!!!!! - 2012-10-05 12:31

      The adequate detail has been well covered in the Press over the few years. News24 cant publish it all over again because you didnt follow it

      Willie - 2012-10-05 12:57

      @ siyabonga.sithetwa ,boet get it into your head CON COURT MADE A DECISION. Unless if you want to tell us that the CON COURT SHOULD BE BANNED.YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

      adam.gardener.12 - 2012-10-05 13:29

      Suck it spearhead.

  • charlesdumbwin.dumbwin - 2012-10-05 11:05

    GOOD, time to clamp down on these tsotsi decisions that are fast turning our country into a Banana Republic!!!

      Andrea - 2012-10-05 11:22

      too late for that

      bongani.nsele.58 - 2012-10-05 12:06

      charles dumbwin you are clearly out of your breath here...your standard 3 limits are showing...just because you know how to milk a cow doesn't make you a fundi on matters of constitutional processes

      BigChiefPlumbPudding - 2012-10-05 12:55

      It's after 12:00 - the trolls are out. "....out of your breath here....". LOL

      richard.bosmano - 2012-10-05 13:14

      bongani , even if charles only had a ST3 ,it's still better then this( wikipedia on JZ),rather Charles was prez then our idiot. "Zuma was born in Nkandla, Zululand (now part of KwaZulu-Natal).[13] His father was a policeman who died when Zuma was still a young boy, and his mother a domestic worker.[14] He received no formal schooling." Shame ,poor dad(policeman nogal) is probably crying in his grave that his son would appoint a "lier" to a position needing serious ethics.

      mosimane.letlalo - 2012-10-05 14:59

      I am taking my Vote to DA...

  • mondli.ngcobo.98 - 2012-10-05 11:07

    Another bad political appointment by Shower man

      tw2066 - 2012-10-05 14:42

      Maybe we can all it another dis appointment, along with two police bosses, one education minister, one Hannekom, and one Maharaj.....

  • nicholas.graan - 2012-10-05 11:09

    The DA said from the beginning that this was invalid but the Chief wouldn't listen.

      adam.gardener.12 - 2012-10-05 13:33

      100% nicholas, and in everything he does. Makes me wonder if he has a mind to apply, or maybe he is plain stupid and uneducated. He shouldn't hold the position he does.

  • paul.coetzee1 - 2012-10-05 11:09

    Yes of course it was invalid. Everyone in the first world knew that. Just like we all know that the so called "incriminating taped telephone conversation" was discovered by a flying pig.

  • johan.fou - 2012-10-05 11:10

    YEAH! Way to go DA! Step by step we're moving forward! Yacoob my man, I've always liked you! It's about time that those in positions they should not be in (or are unworthy of being in) is being flushed out. One would have thought that after Pikoli a proper appointment would be made. Let's see if JZ goes in for a strike 3.

      paul.kershaw.18 - 2012-10-05 12:26

      Wait for the 'appeal' to be filed, dude. Its on the way. These cANCerous people just dont know how to be humble and find another way to to things that are RIGHT. its only their way thats counts in their mindless lack of governance.

      johan.fou - 2012-10-05 13:06

      @paul: True, true. Someone else commented here somewhere that they will probably just shift him to another sector and place another incompetent idiot in his place. I share that sentiment, but at least we now have a precedent case. It's a small victory, but one worth celebrating for now at least.

      willa.prinsloo - 2012-10-05 16:20

      @paul. Can't appeal from the CC, clever

  • george.olivier.56 - 2012-10-05 11:10

    He was a politically appointed puppet from the very beginning. Unfortunately the NPA have zero credibility with the public because the trend has continued.

  • osmaseko - 2012-10-05 11:12

    What ever actions he has taken must be reversed as they are much is this going to cost tax payers? Zuma is a palooka

      azande.futhi - 2012-10-05 11:25

      Zuma has to account for everything.

      osmaseko - 2012-10-05 11:34

      @azande.futhi does Zuma ever account?....he always applies his mind

      nrgx.nrg - 2012-10-05 11:43

      @azande - correction, zuma has an account for everything...fraud, corruption, tenders etc...but accountability...eish! wats dat!

      azande.futhi - 2012-10-05 11:44

      @maseko, you are right there...wait a minute...but do these flawed decisions coming out of mind that has been thoroughly applied and that is our President's? Now I am really worried about my future.

      tw2066 - 2012-10-05 14:44

      Well talking accounts .. Shabir took the fall last time his accounts were in question. Wonder how Shabirs golf .. Er um ... Health is doing?

      mosimane.letlalo - 2012-10-05 15:41

      ANC is an epic fail...

  • azande.futhi - 2012-10-05 11:16

    So all the decisions he tool while in the position are void or voidable?

      Amahle Nofemela - 2012-10-05 11:23

      nope sisi...decision taken while NDPP are not neccessarily invalid but his appointment is.

      george.olivier.56 - 2012-10-05 11:24

      No, read the judges comments. His appointment was invalid, not necessarily any of the actions he took while he illegally occupied the top job.

      azande.futhi - 2012-10-05 11:41

      hear you guys, but my concern is based on the first part of the article which refers to "The requirement that the NDPP must be a fit and proper person for appointment with due regard to his conscientiousness...". this piece of infomation in law is opening up a lot of arguments with specific regard to his fitness to make the decisions he made. hence, i closed my earlier comment with "voidable".

  • goodguy.buthelezi - 2012-10-05 11:16

    Let me predict whats going to happen next: Simelane is going to be given another position and another 'cadre' is going to replace Simelane @ NPA. This time they are going to follow all the processes

  • mark.haupt.31 - 2012-10-05 11:17

    Hullo, is there anybody out there? I would seriously like to know who's in charge of what, who's responsible for what and if anyone at all is managing this whole circus as it seems everything and anything is now taken to court where the confusion is just increased. FFS, let's just give the job to HZ as she's proved she can manage at least a province. Everybody else seems either absent or driving an agenda of their own.

      azande.futhi - 2012-10-05 11:30

      this is no way strange, its true democracy at its best. democracy is about upholding specific principles and those must be protected by courts. look at america, they live by the courts. whatever you do there can end you up in court. the only thing we need not to be worried about is this current spate of court applications but worry about ensuring we protect the judiciary to stay independent otherwise the cause of democracy will be lost.

  • brionyl.french - 2012-10-05 11:20


  • christopher.m.lowe - 2012-10-05 11:26

    Some days seem just a little lighter to bear, with more hope in the air and some light at the end of the tunnel. A glimmer of belief that our Constitution and Bill of Rights actually means something. That we truly do operate under The Rule of Law. Today is one of those days.

      sihlangu.hokweni - 2012-10-05 11:49

      Can't u sense some chess being played the nation?The ConCourt (with Puppet Mogoeng at the helm) will always RULE AGAINST the Presidency

      kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-10-05 12:27

      Probably sihlangu and with reason. Zuma is always wrong!

      mike.down.5492 - 2012-10-05 12:29

      sihlangu first read the concourt ruling , look at the requirements for appointing him and then whine after having understood the issues FFS be a man!

      BigChiefPlumbPudding - 2012-10-05 13:03

      You're right Chris, until tomorrow when they poo all over it again. LOL It's like watching a Jeff Dunham show with Ahmed on one side and Peanut on the other.

  • firstseed.mbeva - 2012-10-05 11:29

    As expected

      mosimane.letlalo - 2012-10-05 15:42

      Goat Header...need to say more..

  • nicolas.gombert.16 - 2012-10-05 11:29

    Time to bring back Vuzi Pikoli! There was a man with integrity and for that, he had to walk the plank.

      sihlangu.hokweni - 2012-10-05 11:39

      Nay!The Inkandla Traditional Clown won't risk to have the more than 700 Charges REINSTATED against him immediately after that appointment!

      deon.louw.7505 - 2012-10-05 12:18

      He is in demand and currently part of a committe looking into the police mess in Khayelitsha.

  • Amahle Nofemela - 2012-10-05 11:36

    @phumi. i strongly disagree with you. the constitutional court is there to ensure that the same executive is constitutional in its decisions and the constitution is the highest law in the land, even higher than the executive powers therefore the constitutional court should be approached whenever the decision made by the executive are seen to be unconstitutional.

  • tsietsi.mshengu - 2012-10-05 11:37

    Another Zuma blunder. We just read last night that he does not have his own place. Now this. He was told not to appoint this man, but he arrogantly went ahead and appointed him. Now he has another egg on his face. I wonder what's next.

  • pmalungana - 2012-10-05 11:41

    Is that so?

  • Eterni80 - 2012-10-05 11:43

    wow, one of the clowns employed by the circus must go, 1 down how many thousands to go ?

  • chris.potgieter.73 - 2012-10-05 11:43

    How many more bad decisions does it take to strike out a President? Will it take another 'Marikana' solution to play itself out. Time to create awareness amongst voters that the proportional voting system must be replaced wh the constituency based one. Every voting constituency must be allowed to vote for an identifiable person that will represent them in Parliament, Provincial Parliament and on Councils. Party selection processes must be take place in a public arena.

      tw2066 - 2012-10-05 14:45

      As many as a the dumb voter who endorses the incompetent twit will allow.

  • jacqui.daanevanrensburg - 2012-10-05 11:44

    Another Zuma screw up and the tax payers get to pay the bill.

  • joe.smit.549 - 2012-10-05 11:47

    Build his house so he can retire!

      luke.dekoker - 2012-10-05 12:39

      No rather fire the fool without pension and freebees..he took enough already.

  • andrez.kolesky - 2012-10-05 11:51

    I trust he'll have to pay back his salary for the last two years while awaiting the outcome.

  • Michael - 2012-10-05 11:53

    We are all happy about this descision, this shows that we have an independent judiciary in this country, and we must always support descisions reached by this court in the future, even if they dont suite us.

      sihlangu.hokweni - 2012-10-05 12:09

      A u happy with their decision concerning the E-tolls issue?

  • phumi.ntlabati - 2012-10-05 11:54

    The judges must know that in this country of Nelson Mandela they do not hold monopoly to wisdom. When the democraticly elected executive are given a mandate to run the country, they have every right to hire or fire anyone they see fit! The judiciary must concern itself with judicial matters and leave the governance matters to the executive!

      leon.nel.52 - 2012-10-05 12:01

      And you must realise that in land of Nelson Mandela, no one should be above the law. Mandela fought for the freedom that you are so willing to give away. You are clearly unable to think for yourself.

      sihlangu.hokweni - 2012-10-05 12:07

      The Governing Party has always rode on the ticket as one that SUBSCRIBE to the PRINCIPLE of:The Courts being the FINAL ARBITRAR in all matters-so don't cry foul!

      DarrenCooper68 - 2012-10-05 12:23

      Is enforcing our constitution not a judicial matter. The previous dispensation in SA had that freedon, as does Zimbabwe etc, etc. You would do well to accept the maxim "Absolute power, corrupt absolutely" I am sure you would agree that it doesnt take wisdom to be elected into the executive while it most certainly does to be a Judge. Populasim vs Wisdom, I know who I would rather have enforcing our constitution

      deon.louw.7505 - 2012-10-05 12:26

      Someone must look after our country so that it is not run into the ground. The public protector and courts are two of those. Accountability is a problem of Gov. and municipalities.

      Watkykj - 2012-10-05 12:26

      First educate yourself on the subject and then comment. Cause u look like an absolute fool here!

      luke.dekoker - 2012-10-05 12:44

      Are you one of those cadre deployed? Not doing a day's work...sitting at home or in a casino (with a government credit card) I guess!!

      willa.prinsloo - 2012-10-05 16:26

      Phumi, when the executive is too incompetent to deliver books to schools, to supply water to towns, to appoint appropriate people to do the job, we all should be on our knees and thank the Good Lord that we can ask the courts to set the mistakes right

  • azande.futhi - 2012-10-05 11:57

    and the winner for presidency of the ANC is.....***drums playing***..... Jacob Zumaaaaa. We are in for a tough ride towards 2014. I am deeply worried.

  • sihlangu.hokweni - 2012-10-05 12:01

    @least his father (a then attorney)'stole' money from clients' TRUST FUND money to support the PAC's course.But he? He dint believe in the independence of NEITHER the NPA NOR the COURTS when he was DG for DoJ

  • phindile.zina - 2012-10-05 12:04

    Always on the news for the wrong reasons, I don't know what JZ is trying to prove by appointing that guy. I doubt if his qualifications are valid, he just seems capable of forging anything.

  • Tiyani - 2012-10-05 12:07

    Well done DA. A BIG NO to a Banana republic imposed by the African National Criminals

  • perqvind - 2012-10-05 12:08 enough said

  • DarrenCooper68 - 2012-10-05 12:12

    Can we please acknowledge that under the ANC, for all their faults, there is still an environment where challenges like are being made and enforced. It is a good news story and is a victory for common sense. For SA to grow, we actually need to forget black and white, and simply focus on wrong or right. We all know what is right, regardless of Race, Religion or Culture. We need leaders we can respect for their wisdom, integrety and leadership, not simply their popularity, utterances and empty promises. This really is not complicated.......

      deon.louw.7505 - 2012-10-05 12:30

      Well said. I wish some leaders like Mr Zuma and Vavi can tell the illegal strikers to go back to work and follow the correct (legal) routes in getting an increase.

  • luke.dekoker - 2012-10-05 12:17

    Any & ALL the anc cadre deployment appointments by jacob zuma should be ruled invalid.

  • lorna.sisusa - 2012-10-05 12:17

    This clearly reflect independence of State institution in the chapter 9 of the constitution... No one is above the law even the president. He keeps on appointing individuals unconstitutionally, that means he doesn't know how to rule the country.. Vote of no confidence by the legislature would be great.

  • Jacques - 2012-10-05 12:19

    Viva democracy!

  • eddie.maleti - 2012-10-05 12:21

    It begun with re-appointment of Justice judge S Ncobo, then judge W Heath, now Simelane. Is Zuma Fit to preside over a country? Really.

      paul.kershaw.18 - 2012-10-05 12:30

      Eddie. The answer to that question is already known me-thinks.

      tsietsi.mshengu - 2012-10-05 12:33

      No he is not, eddie.

  • obakeng.molobi.75 - 2012-10-05 12:21

    Zuma is a clown.

  • Brad - 2012-10-05 12:24

    The Nkosi of Mzansi must be very frustrated with this white man's concept called democracy. Suck it, bitches! :)

  • jannie.kotze.7 - 2012-10-05 12:25

    Thanks heavens. Another Zoompie mafia plot to have secretly corrupt thieving covered up hs bite the dust. Time to go Zoompie and cronnies!!!!

  • netswera.livhuwani - 2012-10-05 12:33

    It is not a surprising that Zuma is hiring his cousins from Kwazulu Natal in an informal way. Is not just Simelane's appointment that’s invalid there are more appointments that need to be looked at. Any person who supports Zuma for the second term doesn’t have an understanding of how a country should be run. Or is so disturbed mentally that he or she believes that corruption and ill discipline are the fundamentals that depicts good governance.

  • more.pido - 2012-10-05 12:35

    w dnt hav a prsdnt in dz country period

      luke.dekoker - 2012-10-05 12:55

      more.pido & all other concerned SA people..Try any one in the DA, he/she will be a good President of South Africa.

  • Khofu - 2012-10-05 12:37

    Now we'll see if Zuma will confirm the appointment of another flawed personality, Nomcobo Jiba, as NDPP? Or will he recall Mokotedi Mpshe?

  • hloniphile.fakazi - 2012-10-05 12:38

    Great job judge Zac Yacoob this shows that there is no one above the law even president,and this will teach president Jacob Zuma a lesson when he appoints replacement of Menzi Simelane he will be careful to do so on the basis that the person he appoint is fit enough for this position, who is properly qualified to do the important job!

  • mzondistanley - 2012-10-05 12:42

    This is all but an ideal situation in an ideal Democracy and while you are all aware that you have been persecuting Black conscience movements and any person of Black Colour. At the time of Mandela taking over the reans of power you never abdicated your positions to neutral Officers or to black visioneries!! To day The Judicially is is tool for opposition Politics!! DA and Hellen Zille have changed Nothing in terms of Political conscience, they do not believe in reconciliation except where it suits their nallow aparthead political interests!! The Judicially in its present form is a perpetuation on Oppressors creed and camellion Politics of stooges!! You in the Judiciary are Misdirecting justice to mean protectionism for the white few!! This must change at all cost!!

      luke.dekoker - 2012-10-05 13:03

      mzimba, so what you really want is for the anc fools to carry on with their Reversed Apartheid?? Wake up..unlike the anc who do not believe in reconciliation the DA and Hellen Zille can change the political conscience and ensure true reconciliation and EQUAL Opportunities to all.

      BigChiefPlumbPudding - 2012-10-05 13:05

      LOL - more more more....

      croix.mactee - 2012-10-05 14:31

      Aah go back to school, man. Oops, sorry! Schools are so befuddled they cannot help you spell properly, never mind conduct a decent argument. You sir, are a R-A-C-I-S-T of the worst kind. Get over your own inferiority complex. Anyway, define "Democracy".

      tw2066 - 2012-10-05 14:53

      Oh ... Democracy you say... What democracy? Zuma was voted in by some 4000 ANC elitists, not you or any of us. Then, on the other hand Zumas view on democracy ...that was conveniently that only a certain portion of the populace benefit. Please, we are not a democracy. As for apartheid, here's a news flash for you. It's over. The ANC won. No apartheid for 18 years now. Suggest you take your racist problem up with the ANC.

  • bongani.nsele.58 - 2012-10-05 12:43

    why was the appointment of simelane bad DA? no wonder in the United States of America the president's appointments are never challenged as to do so is deemed interfering with the business of the federal government

      el.torro.509 - 2012-10-05 12:59

      Clearly you understand neither the south african or the american system. If the us pres makes an appointment it is normally with the consent of the senate. If he wrre to do it illegally then the judiciary would get involved. You see in their wisdom the americans realised some people would regard democracy as mob rule and therefore introduced checks and balances something u and shower man fail to appreciate

      elizabeth.bothma.58 - 2012-10-05 13:20

      Perhaps because he lied while under oath! A really bad thing to do! In America, in situations like this, the President would have to resign.

  • beki.khumalo - 2012-10-05 12:44

    Zuma is without any doubt the worst president SA has ever seen since the advent of democracy. From the moment he took office with all those corruption charges dropped without being tested in court. He will always have this dark shadow over him, be it Malema saying he's using the NPA to persecute him or the ConCourt declaring his decisions invalid. And then the issue of wanting order Presidential jets for billions of Rands just a week after he said he has sleepless nights over the poverty situation in SA! Or the R203 million of tax payers money to upgrade his mansion! This man should never have been president in the first place, maybe Thabo Mbeki had a point.

      Ntsikelelo Zokufa - 2012-10-05 14:00

      u very intelligent man, i like th fact tht u substantiate ur Facts

      tw2066 - 2012-10-05 14:54

      With you 100% on this one.

      mzuvukile.maswana - 2012-10-05 22:59

      But doesn't he have advisors? Before he acquires something isn't there a process that it needs to follow before it is approved and grsnted? Unless then the President's office is a Spaza shop. Why hate the man so much?

  • Tshilidzi Wa Ha Mukhovha - 2012-10-05 12:47

    I just want to congratulate Constitutional Court for these Judgment. I wonder who is Jacob Zuma legal adviser who doesn't understand the legality of this Country.

  • Jerry Modupe - 2012-10-05 12:49

    i ws wondering Zuma wud do anything ryt,he is 1 of d downfals

  • gaeleen - 2012-10-05 12:51

    Botox Queen is looking t.i.r.e.d snicker snicker

  • skhumbuzo.mafu - 2012-10-05 12:52

    The truth of the matter is whatever happens in this country good or bad affects all of us black and white. So we can quote as many "intellectuals" as we like, the fact remains if the country goes down we all go down. Besides 'Race' has never paid anybody's rent.

  • J.Stephen.Whiteley - 2012-10-05 13:25

    Well done DA, and the 114 commentators here!