News24

Stop discrimination against gays - Tutu

2013-07-26 14:33

Cape Town - South Africa should reject discrimination against sexual orientation as it has done with racism, Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu said on Friday.

"Can you imagine me having said it's unjust to penalise something they cannot do anything about, their race or gender, and then to keep quiet when people are hounded, people are killed, because of their sexual orientation?" he asked.

"I think it's as utterly unjust as racism ever was."

He was speaking at the launch of the United Nations "Free & Equal" global campaign for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender equality in Cape Town.

Tutu said he would do "almost anything" in support of the campaign, which aimed to raise awareness of homophobic violence and discrimination.

He said this discrimination was based on something people were born with and could do nothing about, just as with race.

"We speak of them and say: No, they are a peculiar breed. They are not a peculiar breed. That is precisely what we are saying, that they are human beings.

"I don't know why we are so surprised. They have gifts, they can become judges. They can become all sorts of wonderful things."

Tutu said religious leaders had an important role to play in changing people's ideas about homosexuality and gender.

Comments
  • Liberator Wits - 2013-07-26 14:39

    We should not discriminate full stop. Thank you Bishopt.

      Linds Ron-House - 2013-07-26 14:57

      I fully agree. Let's protect the rights of homosexuals and polygamists equally!

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 15:00

      And why not Linds?

      Wish Masilela - 2013-07-26 15:02

      Tutu is a man of God, but sometimes he loses it.

      Rupeshhari - 2013-07-26 15:25

      yeah Jamba, why do gays always feel they are discriminated. Maybe it is because they are discriminated!

      John Smith - 2013-07-26 15:31

      My view is everyone is entitled to disagree with the principle of being gay or lesbian and even see it as sin that is there personal view/ moral standpoint. I am still undecided on that. BUT what everyone is not entiled to do is to discriminate against such people, even if you think it is a sin. Christ would have still welcomed such people regardless.

      Azande Futhi - 2013-07-26 15:45

      @John, your comment makes a lot of sense. I however do not think Christ would allow them to marry each other despite the fact that He would welcome them.

      John Smith - 2013-07-26 15:49

      You are entitled to interpret the bible and believe being gay is wrong. I am still undecided on that. BUT what everyone is not entiled to do is to discriminate against such people, even if you think it is a sin. Christ would have still welcomed such people regardless.

      Ian D. Samson - 2013-07-26 15:50

      Believe me @Jamba, they are. It's just a sad fact of homophobic society in SA. Even though we have the most "permissive" Constitution in the world, Gay people are discriminated against by mainstream heterosexual society as base, not worthy of respect, torture, murder, and loads of other atrocities we cannot publish, simply due to prejudice.

      Azande Futhi - 2013-07-26 15:57

      @John, I agree.

      John Smith - 2013-07-26 15:58

      @Azande. The problem we face, is that "marriage" which was religious term is now used in a secular context,I wish all marriages in law were referred to as partnerships and theat the phrase marriage was left to religious institutions. Regardless my main point applies, everyone is not entiled to do is to discriminate against such people, even if you think it is a sin. Christ would have still welcomed such people regardless. and would not have advocated correctional rape, isolation etc.

      Sipho Simon Mogale - 2013-07-26 16:01

      This is what happens when bishops enters politics they are on both side trying 2make every 1 happy

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 16:09

      No Sipho...this is what happens when Bishops show common sense.

      Simon Berry - 2013-07-26 16:26

      It is mostly religious prudes who discriminate again gays

      jerhone - 2013-07-26 17:19

      hey MR ehh ehhh ehhh your beloved ANC still discriminates against race so why should gender benders have it any easier

      Rupesh Hari - 2013-07-26 17:40

      BloodyAmerican - you may be from the South, but obviously not from Alabama.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 17:53

      @ Linds Ron-House - you're confusing two separate issues, polygamy and homosexuality. Polygamists are not targeted and subjected to things such as so-called 'corrective' rape for having multiple partners. Polygamists have rights - nobody has murdered Zuma yet to my knowledge. Not so when it comes to many LGBT South Africans. Yet keep spouting the misleading rhetoric if you please.

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-26 18:02

      Interesting observation: the homophobic remarks get more support at the top of this forum and there is more pro-gay support further down. Conclusion: bigots are lazy and read less. No surprises here ....

      Graham du Plessis - 2013-07-26 18:37

      Also this website is like the Daily Mail in the UK - attracts racists, bigots and people lacking intellectual arguments.

      Bullet Proof - 2013-07-26 19:12

      Why people shouldn't be free to choose their lives? People still with middle age thoughts in Africa.

      Punungwe - 2013-07-26 19:14

      I wonder. Why did god burn down Sodom and Gomorrah? After all the word sodomy comes from Sodom.

      Johan_Swart - 2013-07-26 19:58

      punungwe people today don't read their bibles and they interpret everything to fit their own lustfull thoughts ...woe to them when He returns

      Musa N Thabethe - 2013-07-26 22:38

      What kind of the Man of God is Tutu, he compromise the thruth, what he was preaching to the the Church

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 23:00

      BloodyAmerican - you might never have been persecuted, but tell that to the lesbian woman who was raped and killed in Soweto, the rapists sexually assaulted her with TOILET brush. And you have disgusting bigots here giving thumbs down to any call for respect for gay rights. I was followed in the car once after seeing a movie with a guy I was seeing at the time, and it was scary, and very clear we were being followed. The fact is that there are many violent homophobes in South Africa and many other countries, and the law needs to send a clear message that violence (and even threatening harrassment) will not be tolerated.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 23:38

      And to all the thumbs-downs. Your support for violence against gays and lesbians is clear. I'm a big guy, if any homophobe tries to inflict violence on me, I will kill him with my bare hands.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-27 10:48

      @BloodyAmerican - of course I am just as sympathetic to a non-lesbian who is raped, that goes without saying. But I think this rhetoric is dangerous. When one makes any point about crime directed at a minority, someone always says 'but they are not the only victim of violent crime' - this distracts people from the real issue. The point is that the law, police officers etc will crack down on the rape of a heterosexual woman with much more commitment than in the case of an LGBT person. The public will bay for the perpetrator's blood - not so for when the rape survivor (or non-survivor) is LGBT. Then I see comments on here saying how the person 'brought it on herself/himself'. I'm sorry but people who are raped for their sexuality face different odds/social discrimination to people who are raped out of misogyny or other reasons. And those particular issues do matter. You might try earn brownie points with heteros by pandering to them, by denying your being on the receiving end of discrimination ('hey, look at me everyone, i'm a gay who doesn't complain, who knows how to shut up') but the fact is you are discriminated against - there are several countries where you could be executed right now for just being who you are. And that is wrong.

      Johan De Beer - 2013-07-27 17:24

      Tutu just lost the plot.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-28 09:37

      @BloodyAmerican - you obnoxiously surmise things about my 'health' in response to my reasoned qualms about your pandering to the homophobic status quo - hardly reasoned argument, more ad hominem. Why am I not surprised. Healthwise,all in sound order, thanks. I'm not a gay who 'complains all the time', and even if I were, your problem, please? I don't see several countries where farmers can legally be killed or thrown in jail 'just so'. Are their bills sanctioning the murder of farmers on the books in several African states? Of course farm murders are a real problem, especially since killing the people who have agricultural skill will hurt everyone, murderers included. But you obviously have failed to understand my point. The farm murders are a separate issue, and by turning concern about human rights abuses against LGBT people (hate crimes, as that's what they are) into a debate about farm murders, you try to minimize what our LGBT fellows here and elsewhere suffer; the injustice that is omnipresent in regards to *this* issue. Don't truck out Aristotle, it doesn't make you look smart, it doesn't change the fact that you appear to be a self-loathing homosexual man. Keep pandering on.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-28 10:58

      Yes indeed, there is nothing intelligent to see in your case. Keep fighting against equality for LGBT people. At least you can pat yourself on the back that you aren't one of 'those' gays. Lol.

      Lebugang Ron Mashego - 2013-07-29 08:54

      Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1 Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-29 10:22

      And if the bible is not my frame of reference? What then? Maybe I will have to make my own decisions about what is right or wrong.... Gee, actually thinking for oneself?! Now there's a challenge! You bible bashers really need to broaden your horizons and read a bit more widely. For Christ's sake!

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-31 10:05

      NB Having kept an eye on this forum for a few days, it is clear that someone has found away of over-riding the thumbs-up and thumbs-down functions.

  • EkasiBoy - 2013-07-26 14:42

    U heard it frm the Old Man himself!

      Poloyatonki Kgosi - 2013-07-26 16:08

      The were no gays in the bible even in Noah's Ark.. Where do they come from?

      Ioannis Condogiannis - 2013-07-26 16:28

      They have been in the darkness under your bed Poloyatonki, and they are coming for your soul dude. Sorry ne

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 17:57

      Poloyatonki - there were no computers/prescription glasses/cars/etc. in the bible. Yet they exist today. So what? Times change. @ Casters - a 'pouffe' is the cushion-type thing you put your feet on. The word you want is poof. I don't need to 'defend' myself, as a bona fide gay, because I have more intellect, reason, and compassion for others than you will ever have.

      Mike Bundy - 2013-07-27 10:31

      Hilary: poof, pouffe and puff are just different ways of spelling the same thing.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-27 10:50

      Mike - 'Pouffe n. ottoman: thick cushion used as a seat.' Sorry to say you are wrong.

  • Derek Bredenkamp - 2013-07-26 14:44

    Nice one Tutu, pity thought that the church in general, and in the rest of Africa in particlar, doesn't share your sentiments.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 18:01

      @YagAvaryu - the concept of 'sin' is something drummed up by various councils which decided on the scriptures so that they could manufacture consent/create population control easier. As for us 'whining' and 'pro-gay' 'liberals (I don't see being anti-discrimination as being 'pro-gay' - it's pro fair treatment) - we'll whine until there aren't 17-year-olds being butchered in Jamaica, lesbians being raped and having toilet brushes put in their vaginas in Jo'burg. People like you who go on about sin without any self-examination are complicit in the oppression of LGBT people. You are the biggest 'sinner' of all.

      Greg Munn - 2013-07-26 18:02

      It's convenient to make it an African problem when its a global problem .... the US, Russia, China, France. Just Google how career limiting it is to come as a sportsperson in the US.

      Derek Bredenkamp - 2013-07-26 18:14

      Hilary that was brilliant, salute!

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 18:22

      I try Derek. Closed-mindedness tries my patience though.

  • Sipho Simon Mogale - 2013-07-26 14:51

    No wonder churches are corrupt is people like u who compromise the word of God for the world, but true church will preach truth no matter the circumtances

      Gift Mogiftana - 2013-07-26 15:08

      There's no true church

      Sipho Simon Mogale - 2013-07-26 15:18

      U people who thumbs down are gays and lesbians? If so repent

      Toni Krige McQuillen - 2013-07-26 15:43

      I am not gay, but again that is irrelevant. You are ignorant it is that simple

      John Smith - 2013-07-26 15:44

      My view is everyone is entitled to disagree with the principle of being gay or lesbian and even see it as sin that is there personal view/ moral standpoint. I am still undecided on that. BUT what everyone is not entiled to do is to discriminate against such people, even if you think it is a sin. Christ would have still welcomed such people regardless.

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 15:54

      @ Atheitis, can we please put this pro-slavery Bible hogwash to rest? http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html So tired of reading about it all the time. Also, that racism part. Yes the NP was a wacked government that ABUSED the Bible for political reasons. Here is what it actually says on racism: -There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (gal 3:28) -Joh 7:24 “Do not judge according to APPEARANCE, but judge with righteous judgment.” - Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL nations, AND kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Just another thing, who ended slavery in the U.S. I will give you a clue: Honest Abe Near eighty years ago we began by declaring that all men are created equal; but now from that beginning we have run down to the other declaration, that for SOME men to enslave OTHERS is a "sacred right of self-government." These principles can not stand together. They are as opposite as God and mammon; and whoever holds to the one, must despise the other. Speech at Peoria, Illinois, on October 16, 1854 (CWAL II: 275)Abraham Lincoln

      Sipho Simon Mogale - 2013-07-26 15:57

      @Gift every 1 who preaches truth is the right church @atheist and others repent don't wanna see u in hell

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 16:01

      @ Sean - here's another quote for you: Deuteronomy 25:11-12. "If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity." Cool book..

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 16:23

      @Jay man, I do not wish to share things that may be a little confusing for you to understand. But there are parts of the law that are ceremonial, legal, and moral. I am under the New Covenant. I follow the moral law. The legal and ceremonial law were given their full meaning with Christ's coming. Many of the physical regulations were applicable to the desert period (e.g. health regulations and legal precedents for the nation at that time in order to safeguard them). The moral guidelines remain however, and you will find all of them also communicated in the New Testament.

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 16:52

      @ Sean - "I do not wish to share things that may be a little confusing for you to understand." 'I don't agree with you so lets get personal'. Typical.

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 17:03

      @Jay man, I didn't mean it as an insult at all. I really sincerely meant it as a matter of fact. It is a confusing topic, even for those who have grown up with the Bible.

      Michael Bignold - 2013-07-26 17:21

      Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord." Colossians 3:18-22

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 18:14

      Sipho, who gave you a hotline to God? Who are you to say what is truth and what is not truth? If I follow Bhuddism, I don't have a text that explicitly condemns homosexuals. If I am a Bhuddist then, how can your supposedly 'moral' views derived from the big colonizing, judgmental Christianity decide for me my rights? How can *your* moral framework apply? It can't. What people need, more than religion, is ethics. Ethics is the philosophy of 'the good life', and an ethics that holds true for all religions (and all people) is impossible within the simplistic Judao-Christian tradition of dividing everything into good and evil. Good and Evil are two sides of the same coin - nothing is wholly Good, nothing is wholly Evil.

      RodinsThinker - 2013-07-27 09:51

      @seanpotgieter: Rubbish. See http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/God-Behaving-Badly-20130726 to understand why. You're cherry-picking verses to suit your "new covenant" nonsense.

      Jon Jones - 2013-07-28 18:32

      Hilary Roberts wrote "Ethics is the philosophy of 'the good life', and an ethics that holds true for all religions (and all people) is impossible within the simplistic Judao-Christian tradition of dividing everything into good and evil. Good and Evil are two sides of the same coin - nothing is wholly Good, nothing is wholly Evil". That statement is wholly evil. God and evil are not part of the same anything. What was 'good' about the concentration camps ?. Absolutely nothing -they were pure 100 % evil. What is 'good' about child rape ?. Nothing. It is 100 % pure evil. What is 'good' about infidelity ?. Nothing. It is 100 % pure evil. What is 'evil' about selfless charity ?. Nothing. It is one of the greatest good things one can do. This whole moral equivalence tosh is one of the most evil inventions of mans intellect since we gathered in caves.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-29 13:02

      @Jon Jones - you completely miss my point. In Hitler's case, the fuhrer/dictator and his followers 'believed' (as one 'believes' blindly in God) that they were doing good for the country of Germany. I agree that such actions are criminal, ugly, inhumane, dangerous to any possibility for society, freedom etc. But 'evil'? Evil is just a word people use to ascribe acts committed within a socio-political and historical context to some immutable, eternal and nebulous ether called 'evil', whereas ideology - myth-making similar to the Bible, in that it eclipses real social and historical causes and truths - is at the root. Evil is the lazy person's term for explaining barbaric actions. Nobody is evil, not even Hitler. He did awful things but at root there was self-deception, dangerous political nationalism, the slavish belief in 'tradition' and the 'traditional' German national community, etc. Not to mention the usual political scape-goating. All dubious ideological mystifications the church has indulged in since time immemorial too.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-29 13:03

      but believe in some pure, a-historical 'evil' if it helps you sleep at night. If it allows you to leave the status quo and its political ideology and self-deception unexamined.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-29 13:04

      Hitler and the Pope, in their holding of centralized power, in their covering up of real social issues (eg the Pope and sexual abuse), in their narrow-minded clinging to tradition for tradition's sake, in their power to command the blind belief of countless droid-like citizens, are not that dissimilar.

  • Alta Steyn - 2013-07-26 14:52

    Do you think this makes him a false prophet? I think so.

      Azande Futhi - 2013-07-26 14:56

      He is no prophet but a messenger rather. I would think he is a compromised messenger. You can call it false messenger.

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 15:02

      You people are funny.

      Azande Futhi - 2013-07-26 15:11

      How Jay?

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 15:22

      Azande - really? How? Read.

      Dewald Louw - 2013-07-26 15:32

      He has never claimed to be a prophet, in fact I rate him as a really superb human being, that loves his neighbour and speaks out when injustice is committed. You however are a compromised human being. Your thoughts and moral values compromised by indoctrination and dogma of years trying to 'do God's will'. I don't think you can fathom the idea of unrequited love. It's all pretty sad stuff...

      Azande Futhi - 2013-07-26 15:41

      @Dewald, I personally don't hate homosexuals though I seriously don't support their practise. And this is based on the fact that the Bible condemns the practise and more over the practise is against nature.

      Michael Bignold - 2013-07-26 17:17

      A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. -1 Timothy 2:11

      Azande Futhi - 2013-07-26 18:11

      @Michael, yes. Women cannot command authority over man according to the bible. They have to be quiet and submissive as Christ is to God. This is because biblically, a man is the head of woman and Christ head of man, God head of Christ. So each party should submit to its head.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 18:15

      @Alta - Tutu was central in the TRC which gave countless South Africans hope and the ability to tell their truths and their stories about the horrible apartheid experiences they endured. What have you done for your fellow South African? Far, far less than Desmond Tutu. I think a man who has encountered and fought so much injustice is in a better position than you to say what is just and what is not.

      Phoenixx - 2013-07-27 08:59

      Ag en siestog hier is jy ook al weer. Wow miskien moet jy liewers na jou eie lewe kyk voor jy so iets sê van 'n man wat baie meer bereik het in sy lewe, en baie meer mense gehelp het, as wat jy ooit sal kan. Jy heboort jou te skaam.

      Just a Girl - 2013-07-27 12:43

      Azande. The very same chapter of your book that you are using to spread your hatred also prohibits the following, so great news, you're also going to hell. Eating fat (3:17) etting your hair become unkempt (10:6) Tearing your clothes (10:6) Eating an animal which doesn’t both chew cud and has a divided hoof (11:4-7) Eating – or touching the carcass of – any seafood without fins or scales (11:10-12) Going to church within 33 days after giving birth to a boy (12:4) Going to church within 66 days after giving birth to a girl (12:5) Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19) Planting different seeds in the same field (19:19) Eating fruit from a tree within four years of planting it (19:23) Trimming your beard (19:27) Cutting your hair at the sides (19:27) Working on the Sabbath (23:3) Selling land permanently (25:23)

      Just a Girl - 2013-07-27 12:46

      Azande, over 1500 animal species practice homosexuality so your comment that it is against nature is also bollocks. Think about that while you type on your computer, wearing shoes and clothes. Blerrie hypocrates.

      Johan De Beer - 2013-07-28 15:02

      Yes, he is certainly not advising in a biblical manner.

  • rhondajvv - 2013-07-26 14:57

    The Bible also teaches you to love your neighbour as you love yourself.

      Azande Futhi - 2013-07-26 15:02

      Yes, I love homosexuals but hate what they are doing.

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 15:03

      Thank You.

      DeAndre Sosa - 2013-07-26 15:19

      Azande Futhi, Black people should be the last people discriminating against any person. It was done to us and we fought against it..why would you do it to other people. doesnt that scream hypocrite?

      Azande Futhi - 2013-07-26 15:49

      @DeAndre, I don't condone the senseless discrimination of homosexuals which leads to their abuse and killings. Its horrible and unacceptable. I however would discriminate against them if I were to decide whether to allow them to marry each other or not. I wouldn't agree to it because it is against nature and secondly not accepted by God.

  • Dave Ueckermann - 2013-07-26 14:57

    Sorry Bishop, but rather concentrate on getting all to heaven, yes it does exist before you trolls start you feeble comments, before making such un-biblical comment. Your place is behind the pulpit

  • rhondajvv - 2013-07-26 14:57

    I just wonder what all of you will do if you have a gay child???

      Azande Futhi - 2013-07-26 15:03

      I would accept and love the child. That won't change the fact that homosexuality is biblically wrong.

      Gift Mogiftana - 2013-07-26 15:10

      so Azande you can't think for yourself outside the boundaries of the bible?

      Azande Futhi - 2013-07-26 15:55

      @Jay, you reading a wrong Bible. There is no such thing. @Gift, I think for myself and not confined by the boundaries of the Bible. The thing here is, Religious life is not about what make sense in your thinking, it is about what God want you to do. No negotiation, bargaining or agreement with God. He is totally prescriptive.

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 16:12

      @ Azande - Really? And you say "I don't read the bible"? Ditto my friend. Read again. BTW - You're right, I don't read the bible...I don't like fairy tales, I prefer thrillers.

      Kaydee Booysen - 2013-07-27 19:58

      Jayman, die and you will experience a thriller

      Johan De Beer - 2013-07-28 15:11

      Well said, Kaydee. He is very brave and vocal now...

      Jay Man - 2013-07-29 15:51

      @ Kaydee - how would you know? Because someone told you? Please...

      Jay Man - 2013-07-29 15:52

      @ Johann - give me a break, please. You base your "knowledge" on a myth.

  • Tebogo Dipico - 2013-07-26 14:59

    Thanks for being sober Desmond, atleast you're as drunk as the bible. It goes on to claim 'an eye for an eye' , even in some passages mentions 'forgiveness' lols....

  • Bob Wowzer - 2013-07-26 15:00

    While his intensions are good, he does come across as hypocritical, being a religious figure and all. But then again, the vast majority of Christians are hypocrites.

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 15:08

      "But then again, the vast majority of Christians are hypocrites."---I see this from atheists all the time. I must however ask what basis you make this judgment on? Atheists hold all morals relative, so who are you to proclaim who is hypocritical and who isn't?

      Gift Mogiftana - 2013-07-26 15:11

      All christians are hypocrites..the biggest hypocrites of them all

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 15:16

      @Gift, Google moral relativism, and you will discover the logical invalidity of your statement

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 15:16

      @ Sean. Just read the comments on this page alone..there's your 'basis'. They use the parts of the bible that suit them and when it suits them... the rest is...how do they put it... "metaphorical". Convenient.

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 15:22

      @Jay Man, a believer acting inconsistently with what the Bible instructs reflects badly on his or herself, not the Bible. Is the constitution of our country rubbish because of people that claim to uphold it, but don't? But this still does not even give an atheist the logical foundation to judge believers. Evolution and atheism have no principles or moral guidelines. So any moral condemnation or character judgment is ultimately unfounded.

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 15:28

      @ Sean. I agree on your point about the constitution...but: Its not the atheists/Muslims/whatever doing the judging here. I say again: read the comments.

      Tebogo Dipico - 2013-07-26 15:32

      @sean....why are christians having so many different churches that hate each other on bases of varied things like race, class etc. You should be having 1 church with 1 name since you believe in 1 God...*hypocrates*

      Bob Wowzer - 2013-07-26 15:43

      Sean, morality and perceptions thereof are irrelevant here (your argument behind morals is absurd btw). The hypocrisy is about Christians who do not practice what they preach. If you want to call yourself Christian then you have to be homophobic, misogynistic and racist with the standing that Israelites are superior to every other race. If you don't hold all of those views then you're a hypocrite. Hell, nevermind the smaller details - many Christians fail to follow their sacred ten commandments yet still consider themselves as Christian.

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 16:33

      @Bob, what part of my argument is absurd exactly? Perhaps you can enlighten me as to when atheism adopted a set of objective moral principles or when evolution started providing a moral precedent? "hypocrisy is about Christians who do not practice what they preach. If you want to call yourself Christian then you have to be homophobic, misogynistic and racist with the standing that Israelites are superior to every other race" ---- I am very skeptical about this statement. misogynistic - hating women in particular. Wow, I must be doing something wrong because I love and respect women. Christ must also have been doing something wrong when He saved a female prostitute. Also, why would a misogynistic book refer to women as the primary witnesses of the Messiah's resurrection??? Racism, meh, see my other comments, no racism in the Bible sorry. Chosen people does not mean superior. I understand the thinking behind the atheistic reasoning, but it is very warped honestly. They were chosen for a purpose, not because they are better than others. Homophobic, again no. The Bible also speaks against drunkenness, promiscuity, greed etc. So it would seem I'm phobic to lots of things. Again, love the person not the sin...

      Bob Wowzer - 2013-07-26 18:37

      So it's safe to say that you haven't read your bible?

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 18:59

      I have. But the way you and I read it, and the spirit we read it with, clearly differs. Atheists make the same mistake they accuse the people abusing Bible of making. They read what they want to in it. They want God to be evil and Christianity to be wrong, so they will read what they want to prove their preconceived notions. Never mind what the people say who actually thoughtfully and objectively study the text.

      Kaydee Booysen - 2013-07-27 20:48

      Bob, Christians never claimed to be perfect, just forgiven

  • Nkosi Solly - 2013-07-26 15:01

    crazy archbishop

  • Tebogo Dipico - 2013-07-26 15:03

    You're not

  • Arthur Tarr - 2013-07-26 15:04

    Anything Else Bojaan?

  • Jay Man - 2013-07-26 15:10

    Typical religious people jumping on the bandwagon to discriminate against the thoughts of a man who knows MUCH more about god and religion than you "experts" put together.

  • Mariana Tait - 2013-07-26 15:11

    And what about the killing of white farmers and raping and murdering of white women and children???? What is your thoughts about this. I am sure you will never read this comment, but God knows that I have asked you that question. And if you do read this by accident, please have the courage to be honest and let us have your opinion.

      Kudzai Chando - 2013-07-26 15:26

      White? Why cant you just condemn murder.Is there a race that deserve to be killed?

      Alice Tang - 2013-07-26 16:55

      Statistics will show you that the majority of rape victims are black? Don't be such a racist idiot.

      mbossenger - 2013-07-27 08:44

      In Mariana's world no black people get raped or murdered...

  • Reza Ryklief - 2013-07-26 15:12

    As a Muslim, I do not agree with homosexuality. However, it is not my right, nor the right of any other person, to punish another human being for something they probably have no control over. Basically, live and let live.

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 15:13

      Now this is a religious person ('s views) I can agree with.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 18:34

      Thank you Reza. Even if I don't think a religious text can be used to judge private interpersonal and consensual relationships, at least you acknowledge our individual liberties.

  • Precious Mudau Preshy - 2013-07-26 15:15

    The bible said don't judge others and it also says God destroyed sadom and Gomorrah(most of us knows for what?,homosexuality was part of why the city was destroyed ,but the best way is to keep calm and never judge any1...Jesus loves us all#God bless

      Tiisetso Isaac - 2013-07-26 21:22

      Precious U are right by saying Jesus loves us all but He hate sin, so homosexuality according to His word is a sin. Finish and klaar!

  • Tebogo Dipico - 2013-07-26 15:15

    Tutu is not a dumb bishop, he knows where he is sitting that even if he believes in the higher power....the book its self is full of contradictions, lies and it should not be believed. The bible should be placed on fiction shelves in stores

      Solomon Matli - 2013-07-31 13:18

      it takes 1 to know 1

  • Raymond Raselekane - 2013-07-26 15:16

    what tutu his saying he is against the will of GOD. he must repent on that.

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 15:29

      Must? Really? You a judge now?

  • Raymond Raselekane - 2013-07-26 15:16

    what tutu his saying he is against the will of GOD. he must repent on that.

  • Atholl Hay - 2013-07-26 15:20

    "Studies have shown that people who are homophobic are more likely to have repressed homosexual desires....The researchers noted that these people are at war with themselves and are turning this internal conflict outward." (Wikipedia)

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 15:29

      I have also read this, but remember that skepticism goes both ways. Homophobia = An extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people. Acrophobia (Which i have) = extreme or irrational fear of heights If that line of reasoning is true that people who have a 'phobia' of something have repressed desires for the object of the phobia, it would mean that people such as myself secretly want to go skydiving (which i REALLY REALLY do not want to do)

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 15:30

      Why not? no difference between Wikipedia and the Bible. Both written by humans. Oh wait. there is. Wikipedia doesn't state that the earth was created in 7 days or that snakes can talk. My bad.

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-26 15:34

      I have studied psychology at a post-graduate level and I work as a counsellor. I know this is true.

      Gift Mogiftana - 2013-07-26 15:34

      Walterx do you actually believe the bible?

      Tebogo Dipico - 2013-07-26 15:40

      In a nutshell Atholl, you say people who went to destroy sodom and gomorrah were gays themselves havin a 'repressed homosexual desires' ?

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-26 15:48

      @Tebogo - Sodom & Gomorrah is a STORY, according to which the cities were destroyed with brimstone and fire by God and Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt because she looked back. Believe that and you'll believe anything....

      Jay Man - 2013-07-26 15:49

      @ Sean - " Fight, drink, and die. then drink some more and fight some more."...that's already happening....problem is the reason WHY people are fighting...

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 16:10

      @ Atholl, I respect the fact that you work as a counsellor and have studied the subject. But I state again that, even though as a lay person in this matter, I remain skeptical of it. It is also very possible that the people who are truly homophobic have a concurrent obsession with homosexuality, the same way a stalker has with a victim. I can guarantee you that I do not have an obsession with heights. I do not secretly wish to be standing on a high roof right now. All I'm saying is: if a phobia is a sign of repressed desire, then shouldn't it be true for most phobias?

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 16:15

      @ Bianca, there are people much more intelligent than I who have PHD's in studying the Bible. The vast majority of scholars agree on the dating of the books of the Bible. The idea that they were all written at the same time by a group of authors who came together is quite frankly resorting to conspiracy theory, and neglecting the evidence. Not to be unkind, but I would rather trust a well-established and respected community of academic scholars than the words of people who have a preconceived bias towards the Scripture.

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-26 16:22

      Sean - Thanks for your intelligent question. It is not as simple as that as each phobia has its own characteristics and complexities, but in short research has shown (if you Google you will find endless studies that support this) that the main cause of homophobia is the individual struggling against his/her own repressed desires. My work in this field has certainly confirmed that for me. The comments here tend to reflect this confusion and struggle which appears to be a global one at the moment. I believe that in years to come, future generations of more tolerant and compassionate beings will look back at this time and say: "What were they thinking?"

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 16:47

      @ Atholl, thank you for the reply. Interesting topic. I understand the reasoning. I am open to where the facts and research go with the homophobia question. What I am not at all responsive to is the notion that Bible-believing individuals who disapprove of homosexuality are homophobic. Not everything that we disapprove of means that we have secret wishes or thoughts to perform the very thing we disapprove of. It also doesn't mean that we have a strong aversion or intense hatred or fear of those who are involved with that we disapprove of. My disapproval of homosexuality is derived purely from dedication to my Creator and what is important to Him. I also do not wish to see my fellow men and women stuck in sin. But I know that not each person sees it this way, and that is to be expected.

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-26 17:14

      @Sean - it's good to find voices of reason on this forum where some tend to spew hatred and intolerance. I am gay and I believe in God. God is Love. I do not believe I'm a sinner. I also don't believe most of what is written in the Bible which was written by men, not faxed from heaven. I believe that Christ's life was an example of forgiveness, love and compassion, things we should all strive towards, but which seem sadly lacking among many commentators on this forum who use the Bible to unquestioningly justify their prejudice. I was born gay and spent many years trying not to be gay because I was told it was wrong. Believe me, if there is a hell, I was in it then. Since coming out, I am happier and more fulfilled than I have ever been. Amen.

      Sean Potgieter - 2013-07-26 19:15

      @ Atholl, I am glad to have a civil discussion with someone. Please know that no believer should judge, and they would be in contradiction to Scripture if they did. I cannot condemn you for being gay and neither will I, since I have faults of my own. Our Father examines the heart of the believer. Remember Paul who spoke about the thorn in his flesh. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong"2 Cor 12 7-10. I think we each have a thorn in our flesh that reminds us of our need for forgiveness. I believe strongly that the Father sees your heart. Your life with homosexuality is between you and Him.

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-26 19:53

      But Sean, you label my sexuality with negative connotations: "fault", a "thorn in my flesh" and an "infirmity"? It is none of these. It is a divine gift that I embrace and celebrate joyfully. Or am I misunderstanding you?

  • Mphatso Malamusi - 2013-07-26 15:28

    what kind of a bishop is Tutu He dont deserve to be abishop

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-26 18:47

      He's an ARCHbishop. The most respected kind and he certainly has always had my respect.

      Hengu Willemse - 2013-07-27 17:17

      u're right he doesn't deserve to be a bishop, he should be the pope! he has a sane and rational understanding of the world we all share (which is rare enough in his profession) but more importantly he has true compassion, humanity and justice in his heart!

  • Jason Hepple - 2013-07-26 15:32

    Who are you to decide on what is the will of God Raymond?? If you don't agree with a person's personal beliefs God says "do not judge" because God is the only Judge and he will exercise this on Judgement day... He does not ask you to do it for him!!

  • Jason Hepple - 2013-07-26 15:38

    So you are all taking it upon yourselves to be the judge over people's lives because of "the will of God". Yes, the bible says no to homosexuality. So let God judge those people, not you! God also says do not judge others! You can't quote one part of the bible for your own benefit and then disregard another because it doesn't benefit your point of view... That's called hypocrisy... And God also condemns that!!

      Sivu Faltein - 2013-07-30 21:21

      Where is this verse that says do not judge others? The very same God chose 40 Judges to judge the Israelites. Stop

  • Clint Hufkie - 2013-07-26 15:39

    I disagree...we don't have to accept anything that is against our own morals and ideology...we don't need to accept beliefs or norms if we don't want to. I detest violence against anybody, I'm not saying that we should be rude or violent towards a particular group of people, we can be friendly but we can also make it clear that we do not accept or agree with their way of life. Everybody should be entitled to their own beliefs, we can all get along, but that doesn't mean that we should accept certain things that an individual does or believes in.

  • Bianca Lottering - 2013-07-26 15:42

    Before I say anything else I would like to point out that I am atheist. Why do you religious people have such a passionate hate against gays? Does your bibles say that you will be punished for letting homosexuals be? Its their lives and their 'eternal souls'. Let's not forget there was a period in history where people used the bible as justification for chauvinism, racism and slavery. As a black woman person myself, I will never believe in that book. POWER HUNGRY HUMANS WROTE THE BIBLE

      Azande Futhi - 2013-07-26 16:19

      I will correct you Bianca. Religious people don't hate gays. You would agree with me that the culprits in all cases of homosexuals' abuse and killings are not Christians, they are just criminals who have total disrespect of another human life. We Christians, through our God, have learnt to love these people and we sincerely do. But that love for them does not alleviate the fact that their practise is wrong in our Religion.

  • Helga Fraser - 2013-07-26 15:44

    I am so glad that Bishop Tutu said it as it is: people do not choose it - they are born homosexual. Who would choose so much hatred against themselves?There are many many differences between people - what IS normal??? The Bible biggest commandment is to LOVE others - not to judge them!! My bishop is obeying this law - HallelujAh!!!

  • Khotso Sarele - 2013-07-26 15:47

    the gifts tend to corrupt even the good man.this guy now support gays and lesbians!rememba noble price and many gifts he got,so now he works for them i.e politicians.mxm.desmond tutu disgrace bible even god.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 18:43

      Tutu is less corrupt than any single member of our parliament. He has listened to many, many people's life stories (eg in the TRC) thus I think it's safe to say he has far more wisdom when it comes to these things than you or any other South African. The man served his church for many years, and surely knows the scriptures inside out. Yet he is more flexible in his belief and compassionate towards others. He doesn't blindly follow a book over the overwhelming evidence of real human experience. Perhaps you could learn from his example.

  • Sipho Simon Mogale - 2013-07-26 15:52

    John and John= no Maria and Maria =no John and Maria= yes is from above God himself ever Robert Mugabe gets it

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 18:45

      It's not from God, it's from the Bible. Until you can prove that God himself wrote the Bible, the 'John and John = no' is the idea of ordinary, fallible human beings, who had a political agenda in decreeing that. The fact is that heterosexuality is the norm in every country - there is no country where homosexuals outnumber heterosexuals, and this has never been the case anywhere. So where is the threat? Even if we did outnumber the likes of you, so what? We wouldn't try to exterminate you en mass, as your black brethren are doing to lesbians in the townships every year.

  • Chop Su - 2013-07-26 16:00

    Tutu shouldn't be taking part in this. Killing ppl for whatever reason other than self defence is wrong. That should be his stance. But to stand up and condone homosexuality is just wrong. Rather take a neutral stand. Cos this is as good as saying, "God is wrong, man can sleep together."

  • JamesBlacksmith - 2013-07-26 16:02

    And I was born to want to procreate with more than one woman Desmond. Does that give me liberty thus to cheat on my wife (cause otherwise that was a stupid vow no?)

      mbossenger - 2013-07-27 08:52

      If you knew you were going to cheat on your wife, why get married in the first place?

  • Brett de Jager - 2013-07-26 16:10

    "Gay people are born into every society in the world. Being gay is not a Western invention. It is a human reality." Hillary Clinton

      Matinyambado Ragwala Mphelekedzeni Clifford - 2013-07-26 16:17

      Homosexuality was Invented. By western cultures. We dont have that rubbish in Africa. In African we marry n Give birth,even in war or hunger we still give birth thats African for you.

      Brett de Jager - 2013-07-26 16:33

      Denile is a river in Egypt Clifford. If you 'don't have that rubbish in africa' why are laws passed to make it illegal in most of africa then???

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 23:54

      So true Brett. Why would Africa be legislating in such a Draconian manner against it? What's more, many an African will tell you that homosexuality is a 'Western' thing while quoting reams of Bible versus at you - not exactly an African text. The laws criminalizing homosexuality on the books in many countries are hangovers from colonization. Trust the colonized African male to swallow the rhetoric and the belief system of his oppressor and turn around to oppress others according to the same said belief system. Fanon was right - the wretched of the Earth.

      mbossenger - 2013-07-27 08:53

      "Homosexuality was Invented. By western cultures. We dont have that rubbish in Africa" - Any references for this claim, or are you talking out your @rse?

  • Matinyambado Ragwala Mphelekedzeni Clifford - 2013-07-26 16:13

    You old Bishop you are not a politician but a servant of God n your God has taught Homosexuality its UnGodly, why embrace it now Mr Bishop¿¿ maybe its about time you learn to keep quite,getting old doesnt mean you should lose a platform of where you from. John n John no; yet John n Maria yes yes.so please Bishop. take off your title unless if you amoung many who had sold their souls already.

      Leon Olivier - 2013-07-26 16:21

      Strong in this one the idiot is ;)

      mbossenger - 2013-07-27 08:54

      It's actually the heterosexual's fault - they keep giving birth to bloody homosexuals!

  • Bhidas Bank - 2013-07-26 16:22

    what kind of bishop who will promote GAY I feel sorry for him

  • Eric Mdudus Shaku - 2013-07-26 16:25

    Read about sodom and gomora in bible why God destroyed this worlds before,MR Tutu.

      Oistar Tutu - 2013-07-26 17:07

      I bet you have not red it either, because if you had it was not because of the gays that he destroyed the cities, but because of ALL the immorality that was occurring there. It was in the stealing, corruption, grandiose living, decadent behaviour etc etc that these cities were destroyed.

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-27 09:27

      "Two angels arrived in Sodom, at eventide, and were invited to spend the night at Lot's home. Lot's visiting angels urged him to get his family and flee, so as to avoid being caught in the impending disaster for the iniquity of the city. Lot delayed, so the angels took hold of his hand, his wife's hand and his daughters and brought them out of the city. Traveling behind her husband, Lot's wife looked back, and turned into a pillar of salt." You believe this nonsense? I can also tell you stories about frogs that turn into princes after being kissed .....

  • Terry Andrews - 2013-07-26 16:26

    Bollocks!!! Do your job and shut your mouth...

  • Lums Zindela - 2013-07-26 16:26

    Gomora & Sodom here we come

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-27 09:29

      Where's the party and why didn't I get an invitation?

  • Thulani Tj - 2013-07-26 16:30

    frm all of te pple i dnt expct dis frm a bishop.so he says we must suppt thier act.wt te bible says man of GOD

  • patrick.masseyhicks - 2013-07-26 16:31

    Hey, your idiot of a president has countless wives and girlfriends and you turn a blind eye. Don't point fingers now when it suits you

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 18:54

      So true! Polygamy is supposedly wrong according to the new testament, but you don't hear homophobic zealots railing against that.

      mbossenger - 2013-07-27 08:56

      Well, the polygamists aren't being targeted for "corrective rape", are they?

  • Abe Sunday - 2013-07-26 16:43

    So is nice to see daughter getting marry to female parter? Bible didnt taught us like that even african culture doesnt allow source idiotic habit.

      Oistar Tutu - 2013-07-26 17:09

      African culture seems to have let you down numerous times already

  • Sibusiso Mcebisi Matinise - 2013-07-26 16:48

    If Bishop Tutu reads his bible very well he should'nt be saying this.This country has turned up to be like Sodom and Gomorah.

      Oistar Tutu - 2013-07-26 17:10

      If you had read the bible well, you would have realised that it was not because of the gays that these cities were destroyed, but because of the immoral acts of ALL the people

  • Jan Henning - 2013-07-26 16:50

    If you display your sexuality in my face, do not be surprised if I tell you to move on. If you don't listen, I will help you move on. I agree we should not discriminate but respect one another, but that is a double edged blade. Jesus taught us not to judge other people's sins and He also instructed us not to sin anymore.

      Nicole de Lancret - 2013-07-26 17:28

      Yet, when I switch on a tv, watch a movie or open a magazine I am bombarded by straight people shagging the life out of each other. However, as a gay woman I do not complain about it because I tolerate other people's sexuality. Just as you don't want to see me flaunting my sexuality, I do not want to see your flaunting yours. Just because we are in the minority, it does not mean what we are is wrong.

      mbossenger - 2013-07-27 08:58

      Jan Henning - internet tough guy

      Hengu Willemse - 2013-07-27 17:53

      @Jan Henning, if you come with your Jesus in my face do not be surprized if I tell you to f-off and if you don't listen I will help you to f-off

  • Robin McMaster - 2013-07-26 16:51

    As some commentators have already raised here, people are so quick to forget that not so long ago, religion was also used to justify racism against non-whites. They were a "lesser species", "against nature" etc. Sounds very similar to the language used against gay men and women today from where I am standing. All evidence for this was allegedly also in the Bible and provided a basis to declare interracial marriage illegal. Nobody would dare discriminate like that now (quite rightly) and times have moved on. Do people that feel the need to spew hate against homosexuals because of their interpretation of the Bible also feel the need to discriminate against Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, polygamists, couples who can't have children (as this is the reason that marriage was ordained apparently) etc? Where does it end? Your life must be exhausting from all the judging. You may not agree with it but why worry about my life? Let me do that. Worry about yours first. The only time you have the right to intervene in anyone's business is when someone or something is getting hurt. Bishop Tutu is quite right here. Stop viewing the world from the point of view of what others are doing wrong and gain some acceptance of diversity in your own life to appreciate everyone around you. I did not choose to be gay any more than you chose to be straight. There is no gay agenda out there, it's not an epidemic waiting to spread and its certainly not the beginning of an apocalypse by fighting for the equal rights of gay men and women worldwide. It's a natural and welcome progression of an enhanced global civilisation and should be embraced.

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-26 17:48

      Thank you.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 18:56

      Spot on, thank you.

  • Taki Muhali Sadiki - 2013-07-26 16:54

    Its so funny how we Christians discriminate against gays yet the bible teaches us that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord. We commit all kinds of sins, fornication, adultery, and the list is endless and we see nothing wrong with that?

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 18:57

      What's more, adultery is actually hurting another person - it's deceitful. Whereas when I am faithful to my boyfriend, with whom I am in a consensual relationship, it is hurting nobody but people who can't handle love between two people of the same sex.

  • Leslie Ndlovu - 2013-07-26 16:54

    No one is forced to accept gays, but you have no right to discriminate against them either..... The earth belongs to every living things on it.... being Homophobic wont take you any were or make you a better person. Live yourlife and let others live theirs!

      Tiisetso Isaac - 2013-07-26 19:15

      Point of correction mr, the earth belongs to God and if God says homosexuality is a sin, yes it is a sin. #Period#

  • Johan Van Rooyen - 2013-07-26 16:58

    all in all, nobodies right to judge but Gods.

      Johan_Swart - 2013-07-26 20:29

      who is judging ? to correct someone is not judging him

  • Lentokazi YakwaManzini KoSengwayo - 2013-07-26 16:59

    This is a highly sensitive topic that makes people's blood pressure shoot up! I agree that violence against gay/lesbian/transgender/bi-sexual people is a human rights issue, but I can't say I support them in their orientation. Tutu's comments make it seem all the more real that we are truly living in "end-times". Sometimes I wish he'd just shut up & age with dignity, without being so engrossed in things he should have nothing to do with.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 19:00

      You say that you do not accept violence against us, but at the same time you liken us having equal rights to some kind of 'apocalyptic' epoch. Don't you see that your second view contradicts the first - if people imagine that there is an apocalypse looming, and that little old me kissing my boyfriend goodnight will cause the world to end, then I am likely to be on the receiving end of violence? You need to stop worrying about the apocalypse. If it happens, it will likely be due to nuclear wars and/or environmental catastrophe. You can pin that on the gays all you like too, but some things are simply due to natural causes.

      Lentokazi YakwaManzini KoSengwayo - 2013-07-26 19:15

      You are entitled to express yourself, and so am I. People are NEVER going to always agree and that is just life, whether unfortunately or fortunately. There's a difference between accepting that something is just the way it is (fine example: this subject), and being violent about one's disapproval. I can't speak for people that become violent or kill if they see a situation they do not like, I do not fall into that category, and I am not responsible for those people. I did not comment on the article so I could win a popularity contest. Obviously my comment was going to hit a nerve with a gay/lesbian person, and that is fine - I'll live.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 19:23

      Yes, you are entitled to your personal opinion, but when you express it in a public forum, someone else is equally entitled to provide a response. Of course you are free to believe I am 'immoral' for loving other men (it's not something I'd have chosen given the sheer idiocy and dangerousness of homophobes). Yet I'd still like to hear why exactly it is 'immoral'. Are there not enough straight men out there for you? What exactly is the problem Lentokazi? And don't say the book said so. Think and rationalize. Blind belief and abdication of personal power/authority was also what turned people into wardens in the camps of the Holocaust. Remember that.

      Lentokazi YakwaManzini KoSengwayo - 2013-07-26 20:18

      Have you ever witnessed two male felines shagging? Yes? Where did you witness this rare sighting? Upload a video of it on Youtube & send me the link. I need to see it to believe it. Are you the offspring of two homosexual parents by any chance? Yes? If it was "normal", then two male humans would be able to shag and produce offspring naturally, without medical science intervention. Why pretend you do not see that your sexual orientation is against nature? Lots of things are immoral in the world. I did not say homosexuality is the only immoral occurrence on earth. It's almost comparable to saying because you are gay, it is wrong for you to find fault with a robber. Nowhere did I write that gay people repulse me or that they are filthy and they should be shipped to another planet. I do not have to like the gay sexual orientation in order to accept that it will happen whether I endorse it or not. No amount of questioning me will stop me from expressing MY view. We can exchange responses all night if you wish - your call. If you were as secure as you think you are about your sexual orientation, you would have reached a point where you feel you do not have to justify your sexual orientation. Think about it.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 23:10

      @Lentokazi - thank you for showing your true feelings on the matter, writing the word 'shag' with such utter viciousness and contempt. If you did not have your superiority complex and your blinkers on, if you actually knew a gay person, you would know our relationships are not all about 'shagging'. We laugh together, dance together, talk about politics together, do just about everything that a heterosexual couple does. But to address your rather ridiculous points (and by the way, might I add, you are free to express your view but as it is public, I publically call you out on it) 1)I have witnessed dogs of the same anatomical sex mount each other in the park. But that is irrelevant. I have not witnessed animals performing surgery or reading a novel, but that is no proof to me that people should not perform surgery or read books (maybe something you should do more often, so you would know the principles of basic argument) 2) My parents are heterosexual, though because sexuality is fluid, this isn't necessarily the case for everyone (one or two - not many - people I've known have had one parent who comes out after a divorce - incidentally, the child of said parent is straight) - It only takes two heterosexual parents to make a gay child, as in my case. Also, incidentally, my sibling is straight. 3) You want the best of both - you want to refer to animals shagging and make my love for other men comparable, yet you protest your 'open-mindedness'. You are NOTHING of the kind.

      Hilary Roberts - 2013-07-26 23:12

      PS just by the way, cupcake, I am totally cool my sexuality. What I am not cool with is people likening my existence to the coming of 'end-times'. Because that's complete and utter bulls**t and you know it. Gays have been around forever, gays will be around forever, and the world might end and it might not but it has f**kall to do with me.

      mbossenger - 2013-07-27 09:00

      Lentokazi - So you don't support violence against gays but when someone speaks out you tell them t shut up?

      Atholl Hay - 2013-07-27 09:41

      If you take the time and trouble to do a bit of research, you will discover that homosexuality occurs naturally in many animal species. It is interesting to note that it is very prevalent among the more intelligent species: humans, chimpanzees, bonobos, and dolphins.

  • magic - 2013-07-26 17:03

    Isn't this rather obvious to thinking, rational adults? or have we all decided that our lives are ruled by a despotic space god and all his nominally intelligent followers?

      Nicole de Lancret - 2013-07-26 17:12

      Magic, you're going to have to dumb down your comment for the majority of users shouting the odds in this thread.

  • Kalombo Gustave Shambuyi - 2013-07-26 17:27

    Tutu we really respect you but it seems like he forgets what he stands for; he must promote the Bible because if he wants to please everyone that he is getting wrong. it seems to me that he doesn't defend God's opinion about this.

  • Rosemary Leak - 2013-07-26 17:29

    You bible loving ppl make me sick!!! That some of you think it is ok to equate being gay to being a rapist, drug addict and basically a criminal of any kind is just ridiculous and show how ignorant you really are. You ppl are the ones busy committing sin by judging others and even going as far as saying gay ppl are flith and shouldn't be alive. You are disgusting!!!! Love is love at the end of the day regardless if it is between a man and women or between the same gender. Gay ppl are exactly that - PEOPLE, HUMAN BEINGS who have a right to love in a way that comes naturally to them!!! When did you chose to be straight???? You didn't it is just who you are. It is the same for gay people, that is how they were born. May your God forgive you for all the terrible things you have said and the judgements you have made against other human beings!!!