OVERVIEW: Maseko 'would love' if Guptas came to SA to test his version - lawyer at #StateCaptureInquiry

2018-09-06 16:30

Deputy Chief Justice Raymond Zondo has heard applications for leave to cross-examine witnesses at the commission of inquiry into state capture, and has reserved his judgment in terms of applications by Ajay Gupta, Rajesh Gupta and Duduzane Zuma.

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WATCH LIVE: State Capture Inquiry | Day 10

(via SABC)

Deputy Chief Justice Raymond Zondo

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Last Updated at 10:18
06 Sep 16:25

The next witness will only testify on Monday.

Regarding the applications of the Guptas and Duduzane Zuma, Zondo says he will reserve his decision and "in due course" it will be advised, hoping for early next week. 

The commission adjourns for the day, until Monday morning. 

06 Sep 16:21

06 Sep 16:19

Zondo poses a question to Hellens on "precognition": "So Mr Hellens, you say for cross-examination to be effective, there must be some element of ambush?"

Some laughter from the crowd. 

Hellens fires back: "People chuckle, and you use the word 'ambush', but it's not really, it's not really ambush..." 

06 Sep 16:12

06 Sep 16:11

06 Sep 16:08

Hellens says Ajay Gupta has a "powerfully contrary version" to Vytjie Mentor's version of events, that might not be put before the commission. Says the commission doesn't have to send a "caravan" to Dubai, one person can go.

06 Sep 16:08

Bham wraps up and Zondo notes that the commission has reached its conclusion for the day, but allows Advocate Hellens some time to respond to submissions.

Hellens starts off by dismissively referring to some of the arguments put forward by legal counsel for the witnesses.

06 Sep 16:06

06 Sep 16:03

06 Sep 16:02

Maseko "would love" for the Guptas to come to South Africa and test his version of events, his lawyer tells Zondo.

06 Sep 16:00

06 Sep 15:59

Bham argues that Zondo should grant Guptas leave to cross-examine on the condition that he undertakes to testify in South Africa.

06 Sep 15:57

06 Sep 15:53

06 Sep 15:52

Azhar Bham up next on behalf of Themba Maseko.

06 Sep 15:51

Lewis summarises by saying her submission, on behalf of Mentor, is aligned with those of Maleka and Cockrell.

06 Sep 15:50

06 Sep 15:46

06 Sep 15:44

A legal representative on behalf of Vytjie Mentor is now addressing Zondo.

06 Sep 15:42

Cockrell submits that the application of the Guptas who refuse to testify in the borders of South Africa, should be declined. Cockrell also asks that Duduzane Zuma be refused the right to cross-examine Jonas.

06 Sep 15:37

Cockrell also argues against Hellens' submission to cross-examine Jonas without seeing the Guptas' statements. "There is no merit in that submission." 

Cockrell says Jonas should not be situated "behind any veil of ignorance".

06 Sep 15:33

On a principle of "symmetry", Cockrell argues Jonas should be put on equal footing as the parties he has implicated, who want to cross-examine him.

06 Sep 15:30

On the point of Lynne Brown's application, Cockrell asks what she could possibly cross-examine Jonas about. Cockrell says Jonas did not implicate Brown.

06 Sep 15:27

Maleka has wrapped up, and Advocate Alfred Cockrell is now making submissions on behalf of his client, Mcebisi Jonas.

06 Sep 15:25

Maleka summarises by saying the legal team of the commission would like Zondo to reject the applications for leave to cross-examine witnesses by the Gupta brothers and Duduzane Zuma.

06 Sep 15:23

With particular reference to Duduzane Zuma, Maleka reiterates that his evidence would not be used in criminal proceedings against him. Maleka reads into record Duduzane's statement where he says he would not want to derail the commission.

06 Sep 15:17

Maleka argues that the rules of "fair play" cater for prejudice if it rises in the course of the commission. 

Maleka says the rules are clear that whatever evidence is presented before the commission will not be used against anyone.

06 Sep 15:12

Maleka on Advocate Hellens' issue of "precognition" - not letting witnesses access statements from implicated parties before being cross-examined - says it is not conducive. Maleka says the best and most efficient form of cross-examination is to give the opposing version to witnesses in advance. The point is not to trick witnesses with cross-examination.

06 Sep 15:08

Maleka tells Zondo the testimony from the Gupta brothers is to deny, not to get to the truth. Their statements are filled with denials and "not worth travelling to Dubai for," says Maleka. 

Maleka says it could be that the commission arrives at the truth of the Gupta brothers' conduct from parties other than themselves, and therefore there is no need to entertain their requests.

06 Sep 15:04

The crux of Maleka's argument is that "it is not in the best interests of the commission".

06 Sep 15:03

Maleka says even Duduzane Zuma may not trust law enforcement in SA, but he came back to the country to face them. Maleka asks why the Gupta brothers, his "business partners", should be treated any differently? He says the Guptas want selective treatment. 

06 Sep 15:00

06 Sep 14:56

Maleka: "The purpose of the cross-examination they (the Guptas) want to pursue, is to discredit the evidence of the witnesses. The purpose of their undertaking to testify abroad, is to give you evidence to show that they are not implicated." 

"They would simply want to make use of the commission's processes to proclaim and advance their innocence."

06 Sep 14:53

06 Sep 14:52

06 Sep 14:52

06 Sep 14:51

Maleka asks Zondo about the cost implications to the commission (and taxpayers) of accommodating the Guptas' requests.

06 Sep 14:49

Maleka: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and we don't want to risk that road."

06 Sep 14:47

06 Sep 14:45

Maleka: "It will of course be convenient for Mr Ajay Gupta and his brother, that they should testify from abroad, but it would not be convenient for the commission, let alone the public."

06 Sep 14:43

Maleka: "What if the Guptas commit perjury?"

06 Sep 14:42

Advocate Maleka now addressing Zondo on the point of the Guptas' application.

06 Sep 14:35

Zondo has also granted the legal team of the Hawks' Mtolo leave to cross-examine Mentor.

06 Sep 14:32

In regard to Ajay Gupta, Rajesh Gupta and Duduzane Zuma, Zondo reserves judgment in granting their legal teams leave to cross-examine witnesses.

06 Sep 14:31

Zondo also grants Kaunda's legal team leave to cross-examine Mentor.

06 Sep 14:30

Advocate Maleka mentions Advocate Jaap Cilliers, for Fana Hlongwane, in his absence. Cilliers said Hlongwane would avail himself for cross-examination. Zondo grants leave to cross-examine in this instance.

06 Sep 14:28

06 Sep 14:26

Lebala saying the commission has not provided his client, Brown, with Jonas' statement. Zondo suggests the legal team might not have thought the statement implicates Brown.

06 Sep 14:20

Zondo: "The leave to cross-examine is not granted in general."

06 Sep 14:17

Lebala says Brown would want to be notified if she is implicated in future. Zondo agrees.

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