OVERVIEW: ‘When it smells fishy, then it is fishy’ - Fuzile tells #StateCaptureInquiry

2018-11-22 13:00

Former Treasury director general Lungisa Fuzile is continuing with his testimony at the judicial commission of inquiry into state capture in Johannesburg.

WATCH LIVE: #StateCaptureInquiry 

Deputy Chief Justice Raymond Zondo

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Last Updated at 13:28
22 Nov 16:43

22 Nov 16:39
Zondo says people must be able to come forward without any fear of being marginalised. 

22 Nov 16:39

22 Nov 16:38

22 Nov 16:31

Testifying at the commission is less about being about heroes, being vindictive but it’s about the lesson for every South African that it carries.  

This is a country governed by the Constitution and law, Fuzile says.

22 Nov 16:28

22 Nov 16:28


There are many people who opted to not see what was happening, in terms of corruption.  

I don’t think that many of us are shocked by the last events of state capture or corruption.  

When it smells fishy then it is fishy.  

22 Nov 16:24

One of the things that made sure we were able to withstand negative things was the fact that we were led by people who hold our Constitution very dear in Gordhan and Jonas, Fuzile tells the commission.  

Fuzile says he was very proud to work with Gordhan, Nene, Jonas, Trevor Manual, Moleketi, people who never sought to ask us to help them or gain personally for themselves.      

22 Nov 16:21
What we were going through was terrible and it was orchestrated by  the (then) president.    

22 Nov 16:19

Fuzile says it’s clear that the way Mr Bobat threw his weight around and abrasive that it was unbearable for me to stay, because the Gupta person said it to Jonas.

After one term Gordhan was replaced by Nene.

From having a minister with 13 years to having a minister for one term and then another for 13 months, it was clear to me that there would be a minister who would be weak. Our department was recognised worldwide.

22 Nov 16:15

22 Nov 16:14
Fuzile says Jonas dropped the bombshell where he said one of the tasks was to dismiss Momoniat (shaping tax legislation and administration), Kenneth Brown (Chief procurement officer), Andrew Donaldson and Fuzile.    

22 Nov 16:07

Fuzile heard for the first time about the meeting between the Guptas and Mcebisi Jonas two months after it happened, from Jonas.  

The meeting with Jonas in December was to complete the picture insofar as the role a particular Gupta person played.  

He said that a Gupta was insinuating that they had information on Jonas and that many people in government worked for that particular Gupta, and they wanted Jonas to take the job of Minister of Finance as it would help them expand their business.

22 Nov 16:07

There is no reason why anyone would want the kind of information shared there for fun. It is about putting themselves at an advantage, Fuzile says.  

The sharing of the information was illegal. Trillian, Regiment Capital and McKinsey was privy to that information.

22 Nov 15:57

22 Nov 15:50
Three minutes later Bobat sent the email to Eric Wood.

22 Nov 15:48

Fuzile sent an email to Ian Whitely and chief of staff of then Minister Nene.

The email states that it’s still early days but have a look at it and the (then) minister can shape it as he wishes.

The ellipses in an email from Ian saying ‘Gents, finally…’ means, to Fuzile, that at long last it has come or the waiting is over.

The email is then sent to a few other people by Whitely from his Gmail address, including Mabaso and Bobat.      

22 Nov 15:26

Fuzile tells the commission:

Information that presents opportunities for business for people if you have access to the contract.   Some of that information has the potential to move the market in one way or the other.

If someone who is in treasury and steals the information to give it to others, it was a problem that Mr Bobat saw it fit to share the information.  

It was like turning the treasury into a spaza shop, and I'm sure people owning a spaza shop would take offense because they keep record.

22 Nov 15:22

22 Nov 15:21

Most of what the document, was about the strategic thinking or shaping the strategic thinking of Cabinet and what opportunities were there to exploit to accelerate the growth of the economy.  

The document was not meant to be reproduced or sent outside, says Fuzile.  

22 Nov 15:17

The company’s name had been mentioned a few times (Transet being one of those) involving irregularities.

Trillion just splintered of Regiment Capital. The directors who ended up at Trillion came out of Regiment.  

22 Nov 15:14
Van Rooyen could not explain what role Mabaso would play at Treasury, says Fuzile.

22 Nov 15:13

22 Nov 15:12
Fuzile says what was happening at the DMR was going to happen at Treasury.

22 Nov 15:11
Fuzile says if Mabaso was connected to the Guptas (and given the logic Godongwana had given), he had participated in capture at Department of Mineral Resources and knew how to do it quickly.

22 Nov 15:08

Fuzile says he learnt later after seeing Mr Mabaso that he had been at the department of mineral resources at that time.

It wasn’t possible that we could appoint him at treasury if he was at DMR and this was the reason why Van Rooyen didn't want Mabaso's details should be captured on the system.

22 Nov 14:57
Zondo says Fuzile found the gatekeepers unacceptable

22 Nov 14:54

22 Nov 14:53
Bhobat and co were meant to be the filter for Van Rooyen

22 Nov 14:49

22 Nov 14:45

22 Nov 14:44
By his own actions, Van Rooyen had shown that he was not sufficiently familiar with his officials

22 Nov 14:43
Van Rooyen's advisors were given to him, says Fuzile

22 Nov 14:42
Fuzile says it appeared Van Rooyen was unfamiliar with who his senior staffers were, and what roles he wanted them to play

22 Nov 14:40
Fuzile says he could name all the Treasury officials, including the ones in acting positions

22 Nov 14:40

22 Nov 14:39
Van Rooyen mixes up introductions for the second time, says Fuzile

22 Nov 14:36
The introduction in terms of names wasn't an issue; the issue was the introduction in terms of roles, says Fuzile

22 Nov 14:35
Momoniat, who was on leave, came in for a meeting, says Fuzile

22 Nov 14:34
Van Rooyen had to be introduced to staffers in Treasury

22 Nov 14:29
Fuzile says he helped drive the Budget engagement with communities and institutions of higher learning

22 Nov 14:26
There was a sense that he didn't know what he was talking about, Fuzile says of Van Rooyen

22 Nov 14:24

22 Nov 14:24
This is quite an unusual statement, says Zondo about Fuzile's assertion that Van Rooyen didn't want to be accessible

22 Nov 14:19

22 Nov 14:17
"There was some heavy lifting to be done" – Fuzile says he told Van Rooyen

22 Nov 14:16

22 Nov 14:14
Fuzile says he advised Van Rooyen to address staff with Gordhan

22 Nov 14:12
Gordhan and Jonas were removed in the "most unceremonious of manners" says Fuzile, adding that they did not display bitterness

22 Nov 14:07
Lungisa Fuzile continues his testimony

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