Land, gay rights up for discussion

2012-05-03 15:39

Cape Town - Proposals to change the Constitution's provisions on sexual orientation and property rights have been referred to party caucuses for consideration, according to a report.

Die Burger reported on Thursday that Parliament's constitutional review committee has made the unusual move of referring these proposals to political parties.

Once a year, the committee considers proposals from the public on possible changes to the Constitution. Normally it rejects most of the proposals, but at a recent committee meeting, these proposals were the only ones not to be thrown out.

There was a proposal that section 25 of the Constitution (enshrining the right to property and the rights of property owners and of society as a whole) be amended in order to create a new window period for the submission of land claims, while the PAC proposed that section 25 be scrapped and replaced.

Sexual orientation

Meanwhile, the House of Traditional Leaders made a proposal regarding scrapping the sexual orientation section from the bill of rights contained in Chapter 2 of the Constitution. The Constitution reads: "The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth."

ANC MP and review committee chairperson Chief Patekile Holomisa told Die Burger that none of the 17 constitutional amendments since 1996 have been handled by the committee, and that with the exception of two cases (allowing and then scrapping floor-crossing between political parties), the Constitution has never been drastically amended.

Holomisa said the proposed amendments could mean comprehensive changes in people's lives, and the committee wanted to play a greater part in constitutional amendments than it had done in the past.

However, he said the mere fact that the amendments were being discussed in no way implicated that they would be accepted. They will be discussed by the committee once feedback had been received from party caucuses.

  • Seducect - 2012-05-03 15:44

    Is this the beginning of the end of gay rights in South Africa? I am suddenly scared!

      Seducect - 2012-05-03 15:57

      @smile - it does not matter if I am gay or straight. It is about protecting minorities.

      deabreu - 2012-05-03 16:13

      Land and human rights! Here is the irony - After being discriminated against for decades because they were seen as "inferior", now the same group fof people who screams and shouts about "freedom" want to start to discriminate against a group of people they think of as "inferior" to themselves. I guess the uneducated people don't understand the history of South Africa and about discrimination. I guess the ANC are bored discriminating against just the "inferior" white people by means of "BEE" and "A.A.", they need to increase the net a bit wider. This is also how it started in Zimbabwe in the early 90s.

      Anthony - 2012-05-03 16:18

      they have already taken white(male) rights away so u can count on it

      RES.AntiPollution - 2012-05-03 17:16

      Its going to get a whole lot worse than Zimbarbie, lots of people here that cant run anywhere...!

  • Smile - 2012-05-03 15:50

    State information Bill, end of gay rights, end of property rights? We are becoming a communist state! Wake up people. We are going to have a reverse apartheid. They are taking away our freedom!

      Burtfred - 2012-05-03 16:27

      No Smile, we are not becoming a communist state. We are already one. Why don't the SACP stand on their own in elections? They don't need to - they are already in power. Blade Nzimande, Gwede Mantashe, Ebrahim Patel, Rob Davies, Alec Erwin, come to mind; there are many other communists in the ANC leadership and caucus.

      dewaldmontgomery - 2012-05-03 16:35

      And don't forget where Gill and Pravin comes from, either!

      Glyn - 2012-05-03 16:59

      The communists are the third force!

      Vince.York - 2012-05-03 18:37

      PROPERTY RIGHTS??? Travel light in Africa - you might look around you and realize why most africans trade in the dust on pavements! Zuma ascended to his throne riding high on promises to exactly this house of custom and tradition and THIS link ( Minister Nathi Mthethwa: Meeting with Kings of South Africa (English) )is merely the tip of the iceberg of the end of democracy in RSA with what they are going ahead with. Mandela and Mbeki managed to stymie this gang but now the current encumbent has burned the door down and the rats and frogs have all come out! The assault on the constitution and all and any related bodies are going to be crushed as they use YOUR money to do it too.

      Rhonda - 2012-05-17 15:54

      Around world same agenda being perpetrated. In America seeing private property rights taken away by eminent domain, an arm of the UN called ICLEI is now working through local municipalities taking property rights. Obama signing ExecOrders so fast. Farmers raided! Once understood this was global, i googled Norway! Exact Planning and development Act being used. This is not a coincidence!!! Google Agenda 21 and learn all about it. The UN Convention on Sustainable Consumption in 1992. It all started before that, but they came together to unify in 1992. RIO+20 is June of this year. Gun rights, property rights, breakdown of the family, and more all taken through a green agenda! We are all useful idiots. Once you learn about Agenda 21 you will see that the movie "Hunger Games" is propaganda in our schools - the end results of Agenda 21. Control! Understand Agenda 21 you will see that population control, living in districts, food crisis, water crisis, global warming crisis, all happening for an end result. One World Governance! Don't forget the UN Rights of the Child Treaty. All about breaking down the family and indoctrination. THE SAME THINGS ARE HAPPENING AROUND THE WORLD - WE JUST SEE OUR SURROUNDINGS. I don't expect anyone to listen to me, but i would hope this would spark your desire to know more. Research it! "Silence in the face of evil is itself evil; God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

  • dave.prinsloo - 2012-05-03 15:54

    they should scrap the House of Traditional Leaders. Time to grow up now, gogo

      Judith - 2012-05-03 16:34

      The House of Traditional Leaders should never have been put in place. The traditional leaders are major exploiters of rural communities, they are not elected or held accountable and rural women are worst affected by their rulings

      Glyn - 2012-05-03 17:02

      @Judith - Vote against the anc for freedom. Tell your friends to do that as well, the e-tolling phenomena will repeat with the ordinary people winning. Vote DA for FREEDOM!

  • Cameron - 2012-05-03 15:56

    One way ticket to a Banana republic!!

      RES.AntiPollution - 2012-05-03 17:18

      Yip, Banana Banana.

  • michael.a.devilliers - 2012-05-03 16:00

    And every day we start to look more and more like Zimbabwe.

      Coligny - 2012-05-03 16:07

      I wish I could disagree, but the truth is this is bad, once we start these kinds of discussions its never been anything but downhill. Populism at its worst.

      Michaele - 2012-05-03 16:10

      Remember, Zimbabwe and RSA leaders schooled under the same or very similar conditions so the thought processors will not vary much.

      Musa - 2012-05-03 16:58

      When they took the land by force we were what...? Now, they try to fix that cruel act we are Zimbabwe sis

      Smile - 2012-05-03 17:02

      Musa? what are you talking about?

      Glyn - 2012-05-03 17:03

      The DIScussers must be told - NO!!

  • Andres - 2012-05-03 16:08

    When you play with minority rights, it's the beginning of a downward spiral towards a State that eventually respects nobody's rights; When you play with rights to amass assets, it's the beginning of a downward spiral towards a collapsed economy. This cannot be tolerated... whether you're affected now or not... eventually, in a downward spiral of eroding rights, you'll be next!

  • Karl - 2012-05-03 16:10

    Try as I may I can't get my head around the hatred hetrosexuals have against homosexuals. It has nothing to do with them , they are not even interested in you. Leave them alone to lead their lives as they see fit. Basically what I am saying is their life styles have sweet F###K ALL to do with you . Leave them alone.

  • Gareth - 2012-05-03 16:11

    The fact that this is even up for discussion says a lot...

  • Denny - 2012-05-03 16:34

    First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. - Martin Niemöller Beware the dangers of apathy. Property rights are part of the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Do we want to become a pariah state again? Homosexuals were staunch supporters of the struggle against apartheid. Nice way to show your appreciation, boys. People's sexual preferences are their own business. If you think discriminating on grounds of sexual preferences is logical, what other crackers do you have up your sleeve? Discriminating against people who prefer coffee to tea? Banning bow ties? Give me a break.

      Smile - 2012-05-03 17:07

      Well said!

  • iain.cluett - 2012-05-03 16:36

    Gay Rights wont be revoked. This call came from the house of traditional leaders. Had anyone ACTUALLY heard of them before this? NO. It sound like the name of a flea market stall. And the PAC? Really? They expect a united Africa when they can't even maintain unity within their double digit ranks? Please.

  • stefan.grundlingh - 2012-05-03 16:43

    This simply confirms that the term "House of Traditional Leaders" is an oxymoron, which, for the morons out there, means a phrase in which the content seems to contradicts itself.

  • lydonmcg - 2012-05-03 16:44

    Bahaha. Good luck dealing with the backlash on the gay rights issue. You're going to have a lot of angry fellow queens on your hands :P

      Psalm - 2012-05-03 17:08

      @ lydonmcg This is not the USA. If the ANC were to scrap the reference to "sexual orientation", any gay "backlash" would be silly and counterproductive. Also, gays boycotting the ANC would hardly dent the ANC's majority. Africans do not consider "gay rights" a priority - especially due to cultural sensitivities which the West likes to ignore.... St Petersburg (in Russia) has recently passed a law outlawing "gay propaganda" and the promotion of homosexuality to minors. Russia might make this a national law... No backlash... I doubt the ANC will be interested in the proposed amendment, however, there is growing impatience (and a backlash) in various parts of the globe against gay rights and the manner in which gays seek to impose an acceptance of their lifestyle on those who oppose it (including, limiting free speech that condemns homosexuality).

      Smile - 2012-05-03 17:17

      @PSALM Do you agree we have to fight ignorance?

      Pieter - 2012-05-03 17:25

      @Psalm: We are not trying to impose an acceptance of our lifestyle on anyone. All we want is to be able to go about our lives the same way that anyone else does. The way that you do. I don't concern myself with what goes on in your bedroom and I don't judge you for it either. Why are gay people not allowed that same courtesy?

      deabreu - 2012-05-03 17:37

      @Psalm - Do you think we should go out and burn witches, empale gays and go on a Crusade to root out the Moors for interfering with Woollies' Hot Cross Buns? Burn Harry Potter books because of the evil they teach our fragile children! Ahhh, life is great when ignorance is bliss...

      Psalm - 2012-05-03 20:13

      @ Smile If you are implying that Africans who oppose gay lifestyles are "ignorant", I would suggest you move to "enlightened" Europe which gave us the holocaust (such humanity!). Oh, wait, with the growing Muslim population and resultant Islamist campaigns in parts of various EU cities to render the places "gay free" and calling for the imposition of Shariah law (which mandates death for gays), you might wanna stay right here... @ Pieter In so-called liberal countries, you find gays seeking to impose themselves in areas they have no business imposing themselves. It is most obscene for homosexuals to seek to impose themselves on religious institutions, even seeking to force religious institutions to "marry them". Then there are those gays who see it fit to try and restrict religious expression that disagrees with their lifestyle, while insisting on some bizarre right to teach other people's children that religious prohibitions against homosexuality are "wrong and bigoted". Now YOU, Pieter, might not behave in this manner; however, some of your fellows around the globe do not adhere to your principle. When Russia recently refused to accept a UN statement on "sexual orientation", it had already pointed to the inappropriate imposition of teh acceptance of the gay lifestyle in the West. @ Deabreu Clearly you think that your ignorance is bliss. When you have something of substance to say to me, address me - until then, don't even look my way.

      Smile - 2012-05-03 22:16

      @PSALMS This is in response to your bible thumping atitude!!! 1. I never implied Africans were ignorant. I asked if you are ignorant! Which you have admitted with your statement! 2. The holocaust was committed over seventy years ago in Europe. So comparing your attitude to the Nazi's, in the 21st century I would refer you to being "outdated." 3. I hardly believe the Muslims will ever implement Shariah Law in a European Democracy... so I would call you stupid (or wishful thinker at best knowing your attitude). 4. Gay marriage has been adopted by many Churches and clergymen. As a result I think its more you imposing your opinion on thing you know very little of. 5."While insisting on some bizarre right to teach other people's children that religious prohibitions against homosexuality are "wrong and bigoted"." Yes, they are wrong and bigoted (you should know) since they impose on people's rights and lead to radicals who adopt violence to express these religious prohibitions. 6. Russia is mostly in Asia and very little of it is in the West. Also taking example from a country which has a poor human rights record is plain ignorant. 7. "Clearly you think that your ignorance is bliss. When you have something of substance to say to me, address me - until then, don't even look my way." I would be in a rather be in a ignorant bliss then know people like you existed. SO... STFU and get out!

      Smile - 2012-05-03 22:28

      OH!!! And I recently read a study conducted which supported low IQ and conservative intolerant attitudes!!! Just saying ;)

      Stefanus - 2012-05-03 22:54

      @Psalm Perhaps you should focus on what's happening to Christians around the globe. As with gays there are many places where Christians aren't welcome - North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Maldives, Afganistan, Yemen, Mauritania, etc. Christians are being executed for what they believe in - in Nigeria Christian churches are attacked all the time. Gays aren't the only people who are being persecuted. PS: Do you know what Shariah law says about Christians??

      gordon.grieve.5 - 2012-05-04 00:25

      Guys don't even take notice to Psalm, clearly he/she doesn't even know what the bible says about homosexuality, cause if she did she would know its not a sin, how do I know this? Cause two of my family members studied theology. Psalm is clearly one of those people that lives with the bible under the arm ready to judge but when it comes to them it doesn't apply.\r\n\r\nAnd secondly she clearly doesn't know the doesn't know how well we as a gay community can stand together and 'backlash' or the value that pink money has in SA, they will change it back very soon when we stop buying goods in south africa. \r\n\r\nBut don't even worry, let psalm go to russia if he/she isn't happy with us. we will see how long you last.

      Psalm - 2012-05-04 10:21

      @ Smile Your comment is pointless. You are still to answer to the reference to "ignorance". Clearly, I hit the nail on the head, now you raise pointless issues. The West, BTW, does not have a great human rights record. Furthermore, pointing out to me that Russia is not the West is rather brain dead of you - as I CLEARLY stated in my reference to Russia that it opposes WESTERN imposition of the acceptance of gay lifestyles. I hope the penny drops sometime... Oh, and go wash your mouth out with soap, alright? As for alleged low IQs among conversatives #roll my eyes# , you might be interested to know that there is book by an mental health expert (who has testified in various USA courts) to the effect that liberalism (probably your type of ranting liberalism) is something of a mental illness. Smile away, we might need to have you and ilk committed one day... @ gordon.grieve.5 You family members clearly have no knowledge of the Scriptures IF they hold such incorrect views (as you claim). The Bible calls homosexuality an ABOMINATION. The New Testament states CLEARLY that homosexuals (and other sinners) WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. It takes a REALLY DUMB or DELUDED person to misunderstand those Biblical statements. Btw, I also have family members who are theologians... @ Stefanus Your comment is correct. I do not disagree with you. However, you've clearly misunderstood the gist of my comment... Take care.

  • Gordon - 2012-05-03 16:53

    The traditional leaders bill goes against the consitution in so many ways. On one hand you can be free, but if you fall under a chief, your rights are not as important as those who don't. Patriarchal in the extreme, all in the name of culture. Either you have full rights as a SA citizen or you don't. Period.

  • Lara - 2012-05-03 16:54

    Does anybody realize that these ridiculous old leeches posturing as kings in their leopard skins earn just under a million a year? Doing what? Apart from leeching taxpayers money.

  • Glyn - 2012-05-03 16:57

    The Constitution IS STONE!

  • Keith - 2012-05-03 17:09

    Surely one of the finest written constitutions in the world, why would anyone entertain or give a forum to diminish the protections of the people (all the people). Strong leadership would come out strong vocally to dissuade any fear there will be any erosion of liberty in SA. RSA could be the "beacon on the hill" to world, but not with eroding of presonal freedom. Short memories perhaps.

  • RES.AntiPollution - 2012-05-03 17:12

    "The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone...." This means that BBBBEEEEE is fair discrimination???...not to mention the indirect discrimination it causes..well done for upholding the constitution..what a great place to live, proudly south african

  • anne.crewe - 2012-05-03 17:28

    Keep your filthy hands off our constitution.

  • manqoba.ian - 2012-05-03 18:15

    Descrimination will nt be ova till the almighty cy so.....wat does fridom means Whn ppl a descriminatd? We all human beings at the end of da day weda gay o wat wat........

  • manqoba.ian - 2012-05-03 18:15

    Descrimination will nt be ova till the almighty cy so.....wat does fridom means Whn ppl a descriminatd? We all human beings at the end of da day weda gay o wat wat........

  • RAhul - 2012-05-03 18:36

    We're slowly sinking into an abyss of mediocrity. I think a scrapping of every political party in this country is needed. Whatever happened to the Mandela's and Slovo's of this country #DafuqBro

  • Nikki Bodenstein - 2012-05-03 19:47

    Why doesn't the house of traditional leaders go F themselves!

  • christina.engela - 2012-05-03 22:11

    The Traditional Leaders Bill which recently made the news, aims to invalidate the sexual orientation protections in the Constitution in areas under their control, in order to allow traditional leaders to discriminate against their community members on the grounds of sexual orientation or gender. This is an attempt to strip our community of equal protections under the law and to facilitate persecution and discriminatory behavior under the thin excuse of "traditional values" - some of which are in plain violation of the values of a human rights oriented society and Constitution. Imagine that a group of right wing Afrikaners suggested the invalidation of clauses in the Constitution protecting against discrimination on the basis of race, and only in certain areas under their influence? I am sure that such a move would result in howls of protest and would be dismissed without any hesitation. The same principle applies here - and perhaps you can understand then, why I find this to be so offensive. Either people are equal under the law, or they aren't. You cant invalidate the protections of the Constitution over an endangered minority in certain areas just to advance the interests of a cultural tradition which has no respect for the human rights of that minority. To do so would create a dangerous precedent - and one which other religious extremist or radical groups, would seek to exploit, or to copy.

  • christina.engela - 2012-05-03 22:22

    All of this I might add, is in the face of "corrective rapes" being inflicted on gay women in rural and impoverished black areas, as well as other issues, such as the President's appointment of a gay-hating former journalist with outstanding judgments against him to the post of SA Ambassador to Uganda - a country which wanted to pass a law which would institute genocide of gay and transgender people, and which also failed for the past 20 years to extradite individuals who committed crimes against humanity against gay people during the apartheid years, and who fled overseas to avoid the inquiries that brought people like Wouter Basson to trial. It's clear that in this country, there is no justice if you are gay or transgender, even with the protections in the SA Constitution. Imagine what it would be like here without them.

      Smile - 2012-05-03 22:23

      Well said!

  • Lacrimose - 2012-05-03 22:41

    Sleight of hand manoeuvre here. In this article gay rights are lumped together with "the right to property and the rights of property owners and of society as a amended in order to create a new window period for the submission of land claims". They'd have a very hard time rescinding equal rights but the land claims issue is the one to watch.

  • michaeljohnmullan - 2012-05-04 06:25

    i would like to make a proposal, on behalf of all gay men in South Africa, that the " house of traditional leaders " be scrapped, as it is an outdated , anarchistic megalith representing a part of our past that's no longer relevant IN THIS DAY AND AGE, and who gives them the right to dictate my rights, and as such, they should be taken to task

  • tinoashira - 2012-05-04 19:11

    From the outset, let me state that I am a gay, foreign national who is currently enjoying the protection offered by the magnificent SA constitution that is a model of democracy the world over. We must however acknowledge that no right in the Bill of Rights is absolute (s36-The Limitation clause). Further more, the House of Traditional Leaders plays a crucial role in giving voice to rural communities at a level of the national sphere. Thus, we cannot mock nor derrogate this house for voicing opinions (on a constitutinal power that the people, through the legislature, posses) that are held, not only by themselves as individuals, but by the community at large (as is evidenced by the increase in homophobic behaviours such as 'corrective rape'). The best approach we as the LGBTIA community can take, along with the myriad of allies who stand beside us, is to go and voice our opinions at these review committee meetings (which are generally open to the public). Submit your own recommendations against this proposal by the Honourable House of Traditional Leaders to Parliament. However, the greatest thing we can do to prevent such a disaster, is to educate (it would be better to say 'share information with') rural communitites in matters of sexuality and gender identity. Without this, we will continue to hear such communities cry out against individuals (the LGBTIA community) whom they don't understand, and thus fail to see the need to ensure that they are protected.

  • anton.vanstaden.9 - 2012-05-05 19:28

    @Psalm. It is clear you have NOT read the ORIGINAL Hebrew and Greek texts of the Scriptures. You believe your incorrectly homofobic translations of the Scriptures. People have been translating Scriptures to satisfy their own thoughts and needs. For years and years the Bible was translated wrong. From the Vulgate to the present day english or Afrikaans translations.

  • davorin.dobrovic - 2012-05-06 11:54

    These are simply proposals and by no means even close to being passed. The tradional leaders are hypocrites after generations of being treated unfairly because of perceived lack of deservedness of basic human rights. Now they want to do the exact same... How quickly people forget...

  • Rhonda - 2012-05-17 15:58

    We should all be concerned about private proerty rights first and foremost! Without private property we have no rights!!!

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