Land grabs not an option, minister insists

2012-02-17 20:35

Johannesburg - The idea of claiming land without compensation is "out of touch with reality", Land Reform Minister Gugile Nkwinti said on Friday.

"Land grabs are not an option, there is no policy like that. By doing so you will have to change the Constitution," he said.

"It is an option that is completely out of touch with reality."

Nkwinti was briefing reporters in Boksburg on the East Rand after a meeting on the progress of the land reform green paper.

His deputy, Lechesa Tsenoli, said the National Reference Group, which constituted of representatives from traditional leadership, organised agriculture, emerging farmers and government, brought feedback on what had emerged from different aspects of the green paper.

The feedback focused on the three-tier land tenure system, the office of the valuer general, the Land Rights Management Board and the Land Management Commission, among others.

Issue of life and death for some

Tsenoli said the group was ensuring that work on the green paper proceeded at a "rapid pace".

"These timelines are a key thing. We need to devise new timeframes to bring forward those projects that were meant to be done at a later stage," Tsenoli said.

"We must take stock of where we are at and in mid-March complete and merge with consolidated reports - then be able to brief Cabinet."

He said the issue of land reform needed to be dealt with "sensitively".

"For some it is an issue of life and death. For the state, doing it speedily will prevent that," he said.

"The right thing to do is to establish policy and legislation to redistribute land in a fair manner."

He said several groups did not accept the historical statistic that 87% of the land was white owned.

"They said that we must commission professors to research the statistics."

Flaws in willing buyer, willing seller

He said one of the pivotal issues in land reform was the idea of "willing buyer, willing seller".

"When a farmer hears that the land could be bought, he trebles the price of the farm. 'If it is the State then milks it,' they say."

Nkwinti said the idea of "willing buyer, willing seller" could not work when the State was involved.

"When the State enters the market, it disfigures it because it has a social responsibility and a political responsibility. The idea only works when it is done between two people," Nkwinti said.

He said the office of the valuer general would address the flaws in the idea.

"With land distribution we need an institution to set the norms and standards so that there will continue to be normalised trade," he said.

"We hope that this is the right thing to do... within the Constitution."

  • Vegi - 2012-02-17 20:46

    Land grabs are a no no. Land is to be tranferred lawfully to the true owners after peaceful discussions.

      Simon - 2012-02-17 21:07

      Vegi, and the true owners are who exactly? No doubt you are owed land, where exactly is this land? BTW you appear not to have answered me on the "Zille zooms in on poverty" article, is it because you can't or is it becaus you are a typical ANC post and ignore questions type of idiot?

      Sean - 2012-02-17 21:07

      If the ANC ever tries to ``take`` land , it will be the end of S.A and the ANC knows that very well !

      Swapie - 2012-02-17 21:07

      Problem is how do you prove you are the true owner of a piece of land. Your great- great- grandfather may have lived on a piece of land but you need to have some proof. How far do we need to go back? 1800's? 1700's? 1600's? I foresee huge problems to sort this out.

      mariuskowie - 2012-02-18 08:34

      Vegi clearly works for the Ministry of Disinformation.

      Piet - 2012-02-18 11:27

      Vegiis in a Vegi state, ignore it!!!

      Kyle - 2012-06-04 10:08

      Haters gonna hate! Dictators gonna dictate! SA is quickly regressing into a freshly baked Zimbabwe!

  • Sean - 2012-02-17 20:47

    I wonder how many South Africans know the true history about the land ?? Mulder made a 100 % valid point !

      Mkulisi - 2012-02-17 21:09

      What is the real truth sean ??

      Sean - 2012-02-17 21:23

      Mkulisi - Simple solution , no one takes land from no one !! Problem solved !! 95% of South Africans crying for land don`t know anything about history at all ! Who gives them the right to demand land ?

      Donny Doncaster - 2012-02-17 21:48

      @Muedes. Well said.

      Cracker - 2012-02-17 22:08

      @ Verminator You know, making up definitions and thereby determining the fate of everyone and actually whole nations or ethnic groups used to be a favorite Nazi practice. Here is a far better and realistic definition AS SUPPORTED BY REALITY: "Common sense" as it should apply is defined as follows.... At the risk of my being labeled prejudicial I thought it wise to leave the definition search to the reader. There are so many online dictionaries available and to leave any out would be a shame.

      Sean - 2012-02-17 23:21

      @theafrican- retard , I was born here , so if you want to get childish now then all non-white people must leave europe !! That is so idiotic , ffs grow a brain !

      barabus2012 - 2012-02-18 11:24

      @sean - full agree with you. Mulder was spot on with his remarks about the cape and other land issues.

      Elle-Black - 2012-02-20 08:55

      @ Mkulisi According to Sean the real truth about the history of the land is anything that comes from the Afrikaners mouth,dont you know that if it's all white itá alright?

  • Swapie - 2012-02-17 21:01

    You want a civil war in our country? Then start to take the land without compensation. There is plenty of land that belongs to the government. Hand that out, if you please.

      Bryan - 2012-02-18 18:12

      And I can assure you war the ANC WILL get. If you think otherwise think again. However they smart enough to kill farmers slowly instead of starting war.

  • Lunga - 2012-02-17 21:05

    Good move from the government. This issue is a sensitive matter that can turn into an explosive situation. It needs to be discussed in a responsible manner. *personal opinion

      Irene - 2012-02-17 21:32

      Personal opinion? Have you been speaking for someone else?

  • Trevor - 2012-02-17 21:09

    Oh hell, this has NOTHING to do with South African's opinions on land reform. Even the ANC know, they cannot afford to have global investors think that SA could be another Zim...if that happens watch investers leave in droves and then we'll have a revolt. So weight up the pro's & con's, the ANC/South Africa has to choose the lesser of two evils, manage their supporters or the Investors...and the ANC has proven, it's supporters are blind and willing to anything in the name of the ANC...LMAO

      Sganja - 2012-02-17 21:13

      Did't you listen to Mantashe?Investors will go and come back, land will be here, we won't be bullied

      Irene - 2012-02-17 21:33

      I started laughing the minute he opened his mouth. Couldn't hear much over the laughter.

      Sganja - 2012-02-17 23:26

      Shame poor Irene then you should prepare yourself to hear him again and again.

  • Cracker - 2012-02-17 21:10

    Die plaasboere sit seker lekker daar met hulle lui gatte op die stoep met hulle koffie en/of brandewyn en coke terwyl sommige van ons nie-boere die gedurige moeite moet doen om hulle eiendomsreg en die regverdiging daarvoor op hierdie bladsye te verdedig. Kom tog eenmaal orent van julle gatte en doen iets!

      Cracker - 2012-02-17 21:14

      Waar is julle met julle argumente en beskikbare syfers?

      Sganja - 2012-02-17 21:15

      English please.

      Cracker - 2012-02-17 21:15

      En nie net eenmaal nie maar voortdurend. Besef julle nie wat aan die gang is nie?

      Cracker - 2012-02-17 21:26

      @ Sganja The comment was intended specifically for some Afrikaners. I will summarize the gist of it: The white farmers must get off their butts and stop relying on some of us non-farmers to defend their claims to ownership. In other words, they must start doing something at least on their own to justify their land ownership and do it on these pages. The rest of us are really getting tired of doing it on their behalf. They surely have the resources and figures available to justice to what they OSTENSIBLY regard as worth their while. They must stop being parasitic.

      Simon - 2012-02-17 21:28

      Sganja, why do you want it in english? I thought you were against the evil oppressors.

      Cracker - 2012-02-17 21:32

      @ Vegi Because the Joburg library and other international libraries and so many software programs like the so-called chimp chatter. Don't try to get clever with me.

      Irene - 2012-02-17 21:33

      That's what you speak Veg. Nothing but noise.

      Donny Doncaster - 2012-02-17 21:58

      @Cracker. Easy tiger, the boere aren't lazy - after all it was them that defended this country (before the ANC came into existance) while the "non-farmers" sat on their ars*s and cheered from the sidelines. Some respect is in order! Boere/Farmers aren't talkers, they're doers!

      Donny Doncaster - 2012-02-17 22:06

      @Cracker. Show some respect. The boere/farmers defended this coutry while the "non-farmers" sat and watched from the sidelines.. Where do you come off that they're lazy?! We have food to eat don't we? The least we can do is to support them! They aren't talkers (like you), they're doers. Maybe you should try it sometime!

      Cracker - 2012-02-17 22:14

      @ Danny Doncaster They are so silent. One thing I would like to point out is that I grew up in a rural farming area. I think I know what I am talking about. Where are the farming organizations on these forums? As for bravery, hey, who walked the borders? The farmers?

      colin.dovey - 2012-02-17 22:18

      ok @ vegi hapa ni lugha nyingine kwa ajili yenu kwa ufa na ..... hebu bet huelewi neno!

      Donny Doncaster - 2012-02-17 22:33

      @Cracker. They aren't politicians, their business is farming. As for the orginasations representing them - they exist and they do good work. I don't think News24's comment column is the best forum to adress these matters and really make a difference.. As for the the farmers in the area you grew up in - i can't speak for them, but you know that not all of them are like that.. You get your "vrot appels" in every batch. I also speak from experiences as many of my friends are farmers (like they're fathers and fathers' fathers) and they are only interested in keeping their heads down and farming - with the occasional downtime (like you and I). I'm glad to hear you served, but you weren't the only one. The borders you protected were only there because of what they did even before 1900.

      Sganja - 2012-02-17 23:22

      @Cracker "The comment was intended specifically for some Afrikaners. " I thought there was a site for Afrikaans speakers Nuus24. @Simon Because I cannot speak Afrikaans and Cracker cannot speak african languages, so I was eager to hear the drivel he was saying.

      Sean - 2012-02-17 23:27

      @Simon - The west is only good when it suites those imbeciles !! Same with the history of the land !

      Juan - 2012-02-18 02:00

      @cracker there are many places in this country where the infrastructure has collapsed under ANC and it's the farmers in those places fixing roads etc,etc. As for vegi really lets not go there and start making comparisons with chimps, you will get off second best

      Marcell - 2012-02-18 07:07

      @Cracker Die boere het nie tyd om rond te sit en teak te praat saam met die volk nie. Hulle is besig om voorbrande te maak. Huis moles uit te sorteer as die volk weer gesuip raak. Lyndrade reg te maak wat gesteel of geknip is. Beeste te dip. Hoenders te vat slagpale toe. Jy, my booi sal nie hou op die plaas nie.

      Marcell - 2012-02-18 07:13

      Dan kom ek nog nie eens by die feit dat ek eerder Mosambiekers in diens neem nie. In die begin is die taal 'n probleem maar binne 6 maande praat hulle vlot Afrikaans. Hulle is hardwerkend, skoon en nie vernielsugtig nie. Hulle waardeer alles wat jy vir hulle gee/doen. Hulle het nie die 'entitlement' mentaliteit nie. In die toekoms sal ons venootskap plase begin bedryf in Mosambiek.

      barabus2012 - 2012-02-18 11:29

      @vegi - 'Why do you resort to chimp chatter?' its the only language you understand. Vegi - brain dead PS jz is a toad. ruler of toad... the lord of toads

      Piet - 2012-02-18 11:33

      @ Vegi. Chimp chatter is so the chimps like you are excluded. Anything else?

  • Trevor - 2012-02-17 21:12

    Oh hell, this has NOTHING to do with South African's opinions on land reform. Even the ANC know, they cannot afford to have global investors think that SA could be another Zim...if that happens watch investers leave in droves and then we'll have a revolt. So weight up the pro's & con's, the ANC/South Africa has to choose the lesser of two evils, manage their supporters or the Investors...and the ANC has proven, it's supporters are blind and willing to support "their party" at any expense..LMAO..and so the rich get richer and the Elite become more powerful...WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD....

  • sandy.langenstrass - 2012-02-17 21:17

    Swapie is right ,there is plenty of wide open spaces, lots of land belonging to Govnernment... why are you not allocating. It does'nt make sense to take successful farmers land. The way the ANC handles this issue, is vital to the prosperity of our country.

      Swapie - 2012-02-17 21:42

      Sandra, because it wont work. Why not? Ask Vusi. His dad started a coffin making business that he built up, then gave it to some fellow black people to run. It closed down shortly afterwards. Why work when you can get for free. Most of the black people in this country just got to lazy to work.Our society has become one of sitting on our asses , waiting for the few taxpayers to provide the grants. And grants we have a lot of. Now teenagers fall pregnant so that they can claim the grant.Silly, but true. So giving them land to farm on just wont work. Look at the farms that had been bought from white farmers and given to black people. Unproductive, bankrupt. Who to blame? Government. Instead of going into partnerships with the white farmers, using them and their skills to help black people, they choice the popular way: get rid of the white farmer.

  • Jeremy - 2012-02-17 22:31

    Oh lord, I feel so blessed. Yes I am white, yes I am European, I grew up here, but am the son of a person who settled in this beautiful land. As I am sure you are aware there are many Black people in England, most of whom have moved away from the culture of expectation, and become productive members of a multicultural society. If I, or any other "White" dared to suggest that our minority visitors GET BACK ON A BOAT AND LEAVE, it would be against the law of a multicultural society. So having listened to the machinations of the people who impersonate a reasoning government, having witnessed so many ANC supporters bouncing up and down in the streets supporting the biggest racist I have ever encountered, I have decided to do as the black majority wish me to do. I will leave a land I perceive as being brought to the very edge of the precipice. I shall watch with interest where Zuma and his band of rogues takes this country. I do it because I can. unlike the poor black man that is stuck with this dilemma of his own making. The staff who I had the pleasure of trying to create a business with have accepted the ANC's part in their pending unemployment. They are worried they will not get their UIF as the government employees usually steal it from them. My investments, ALL OF WHICH I BROUGHT WITH ME From overseas will leave with me. I have lived in many places, most not as beautiful as South Africa, but mostly none as screwed as here. Its gonna be interesting. Good luck South Africa.

      Marcell - 2012-02-18 05:52

      Good choice. Rather leave on your terms. People think leaving is easy. It is a very hard choice to make and an expensive one to boot. But once you leave and look in instead of out you can really see how screwed up this once beatifull country is.

      sonet.vd.westhuizen - 2012-02-18 11:57

      Good choice Jeremy, 3 of our families are also leaving, we ALL taking our investments with us. Hell We even took some major losses in just closing down our businesses!, but who cares?.. We will rather start afresh where we are wanted and don't have to live in fear of being attacked, robbed or MURDERED just because our skin color is wrong! As for job losses incured by closing our businesses.. let this govt. create jobs for their people.

  • berni.venter - 2012-02-17 23:05

    What confuses the daylights out of me is that the State (read Government aka ANC) is the largest land owner? Why then the claims on productive, commercial farms? Give those that want land the land that is available without putting our food security at risk. By the way... a commercial farmer feeds 1,200 people... 50 million mouths to feed... 41,666 commercial farmers needed PER AGRICULTURAL AREA ie. Dairy, Wheat, Poultry... How many commercial farmers do we currently have? Looking at the food prices I would hazard a guess WAY TOO FEW!

      sonet.vd.westhuizen - 2012-02-18 12:01

      Sadly Berni the stupidity of people are going to be the cause of them starving to death!. It is a given fact that there are MAJOR food shortages ALL over the world. People will only wake up once it is too late!

  • Lucky Manaswe - 2012-02-18 00:21

    I think mankind is the worst species ever to walk this earth, fighting each other because of color, culture, language, religion and just about anything. Destroying everything just to sustain our greed.

  • Willie - 2012-02-18 06:04

    Willie, If you think that any untrained person can go and farm, then you are living in the dark ages. All jobs in life has to be trained for if you want success. Not every person can be a doctor, a teacher or an engine driver you have to have the ability and love for the job if you are looking for success. So help the people who want to farm with training and if they show that they can do it then help them to obtain a farm with the finance to go with it. If you don't this person will be back asking for something else in the next few years. This way we will see progress and the farmers will help where they can. We all want to win the Lotto but only a few do. And not even President Zuma can help you win that Lotto you have to earn it.

      Marcell - 2012-02-18 07:16

      They think because a herdsboy can become president anything is possible.

  • lhfick - 2012-02-18 07:51

    Give them all the land, because that is what they want. Our farmers are being killed just because they own the land and are farming to provide food for all. Let them farm and let them employ the masses. I am not going to war again for this country. Just give it! If I had a farm I would do it. If they want my property they can take it. They get the promotions, the jobs and must be empower of everything. So just give it. You`ll feel much better and stress free and more important you will still be alive.

      sonet.vd.westhuizen - 2012-02-18 12:12

      I agree @ lhfick, Let them have it!. Get the Hell out and take your hard earned money and investment with you. Start afresh else where where you are wanted and can live in peace and harmony and be safe. Let them feed the hordes of hungry, starving poor!. I think realization will only set in once they die of starvation!

      sandy.langenstrass - 2012-02-18 16:38

      You forget some of us are not in a position to get out, as much as we would like too. Besides, I was born here and played my part in contibuting to this land.. I don't see why I should go..especialy as I believe the Koi people were here first in southern africa and not the black man..they were further north in Zimbabwe, when the white man arrived...

      lhfick - 2012-02-18 17:47

      Leaving is not the objective here. I just feel that we are being held accountable for the past and the present, that is wrong. Being a farmer does not make you a racist and farming is going to become more and more complicated with climate changes and no water or electricity on demand.

  • Piet - 2012-02-18 11:26

    You say the right things sir, but North of Pretoria land is stolen and stands sold for R400.00 and still no action????? Explain please

  • Gerhard - 2012-02-18 16:53

    In Europe 3% own 87% of the land. They are the farmers that feed the nation. Who else should I give land to? The whole process here is ill-founded and going in the wrong direction. Subsistance farming will not help SA. It is to be avoided!

  • acsteyn - 2012-02-18 17:06

    I think it sounds like a good idea. However land will still be taken from people who may not want to part with it. Is there an option to pay for the land and retain it as is?

  • Robi - 2012-02-18 19:30

    Mitchell v Mosley 1914 defined the land as"the grant of land includes the surface and all that is above - houses, trees, and the like - ... and all that is below, i.e. mines, earth, clay, etc." Land and Property Act 1925 defined the land as“Subject to certain exceptions land includes the sub-soil down to the depths of the earth and the airspace above the land to a reasonable height” Mr Minister history will judge you harshly. Politicians must never issue statements for pleasing the masters. They must be close to reality and stop hurting the masses. People tortured , abused ,degraded and went to exiles,prisons, heavens because of economical exclusions including the dispossesion of the land. The land was forcefully taken from our ancestors without compensation. To complicate matters worse the present government is not even ready to address land question. They are still on determining which is the right theory to address the the problem. I was told that theory and practical complement each other, but in this government they substitute each other.Land disposession is the only way to address the problem than creating unneccessary millionaires who are not rightful beneficiaries.

  • Heinrich - 2012-02-19 07:49

    Thank you Minister! Finaly someone is seeing the light which is called reality!

  • Nyiks11 - 2012-02-20 12:44

    The land belongs to us !

      Jeremy - 2012-02-21 08:45

      I think you will find that belongs to the person who paid for it. If that is not the case, what are you doing with my taxi?

  • Scebberish - 2012-02-20 13:45

    I still dont understand why the 3rd option is not considered. Its a business option and very viable. Give the white farmer the option of selling, or alternative for him, making his staff shareholders on a profit sharing basis according to their standing and position on the farm, and where the farmer is CEO, and the senior workers are part of a diciplinary and management committee for workers who are not pulling their weight. Once you hit the workers in their pocket, they will be only too willing to eject the deadwood from the farm

  • Jason - 2012-06-02 08:56

    let war begin , I'm ready are you

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