News24

Christians most populous world religion

2012-12-18 09:53

Washington - Christians are the world's biggest religious group, numbering about 2.2 billion people, according to a study released on Tuesday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

Pew assembled data on the size and geographic distribution of eight major religious groups, including non-believers.

It found that Christians make up about 32% of the world's population, followed by Muslims, the second largest group, with 1.6 billion adherents.

Hindus were the third largest group, numbering about one billion (15%), followed by Buddhists, at 500 million (7%) and Jews, who number 14 million (0.2%).

The worldwide demographic study of more than 230 countries and territories found that more than eight people in 10 - about 5.8 billion people - identify with a religious group.

More than 400 million people (6%) practice various folk traditions, including African traditional, aboriginal or folk religions, the global survey found.

The Pew Forum said that the study, in which religious affiliation was based on self-identification, did not attempt to measure the degree to which practitioners observe their faiths.

Comments
  • dracolusus - 2012-12-18 10:02

    Just comes to show, 2.2 Billion people CAN be wrong.

      fanie.viljoen.73 - 2012-12-18 10:13

      Don't get your point? is 1.6Billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, 500 million Buddhists, 14 million Jews, 400 million folk related religions correct or the less than 2 in 10? Do you BELIEVE there is not a Higher Being?

      Hein Van Wyk - 2012-12-18 11:25

      so Dark matter do not exsits

      mbossenger - 2012-12-18 12:32

      "Do you BELIEVE there is not a Higher Being" - I find no evidence supporting the existence of such a being.

      jody.beggs - 2012-12-18 12:36

      Of course Child indoctrination has nothing to do with it. Does a child born in China go to hell for not getting to know Jeebus ? You people ...

      Michael - 2012-12-18 12:39

      Hein, there is a theory about Dark Matter, no conclusive proof. If it turns out to be wrong, the scientific rules will be changed to reflect it. Therein is the difference. Religion doesn't claim to be a theory, but truth, fact, indisputable. And should any evidence arise to the contrary, they will just ignore it and carry on the way they were.

      mbossenger - 2012-12-18 12:45

      But there is evidence for the existence of dark matter - such as the rotation speed of spiral galaxies.

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 13:27

      Look at the atheists' modus operandi. When challenged it reverts to becoming insulting with little or no substance to it's own arguments. No value add. Totally reactive, only solely dependent on hard evidence and not "gutfeel" or perception or anticipation.

      johan.mostert.967 - 2012-12-18 16:12

      @Hein van Wyk. NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2006/aug/HQ_06297_CHANDRA_Dark_Matter.html

      graeme.speed.35 - 2012-12-19 12:20

      If you add all the "believers" it comes to around 4.7 billion. The world's population is almost 7.1 billion. Therefore the "non-believers" are technically the biggest group of people at 2.4 Billion

  • gert.swart.393 - 2012-12-18 10:04

    Christians maybe the largest group, but very few actually practise their religion. Unlike Muslims who follow their faith dilligently.

      JohncarlosBiza - 2012-12-18 10:09

      Being conservative does not make one religiously diligent. It's not Islam to act like rural Muslims in some middle-eastern nations

      Mvuselelo Mnguni - 2012-12-18 10:36

      Where the Hell,did they get these Evil figures,really? such people go to Church or is it because its gonna be Christmas?? a comedian did the survey

      MagdaKus - 2012-12-18 10:56

      Come on atheitis- traffic on Sunday mornings is a breeze! Not only because your lot are sleeping in late ;-)

      jody.beggs - 2012-12-18 12:38

      Sin , repent , repeat , the xian way of life . Its easy to be a xian these days , even mass murderer's can repent and go to heaven. Pathetic ...

      Boetwan - 2012-12-18 13:20

      As much as i would like to say otherwise i agree with your comment Gert

      MagdaKus - 2012-12-18 13:52

      @ atheitis- good for you! I am glad others also have an equally strong motivation to get up on a weekend!

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 16:42

      @ M Bossenger - Use the page up button on your computer and see my earlier comments.

      joe.soapie.73 - 2012-12-20 09:20

      // MagdaKus - Come on atheitis- traffic on Sunday mornings is a breeze! Not only because your lot are sleeping in late ;-) // I would be..if you lot weren't banging away on your church bells at some ungodly ( :P ) hour of the morning.

  • allcoveredinNinjas - 2012-12-18 10:21

    So the 3rd largest group are Atheists/non-religous with roughly 1.4 billion adherents . As a political segment , its rather untapped and almost wholly excluded from the group identity politics and rights .

      david.degoede.71 - 2012-12-18 10:46

      How can it be tapped ? Inside of this group you will find that most see themselves as spiritual but not religious and Atheists are a small percentage inside of that group. A visit to any Book store or movie theater should help you to understand it. The truth is people inside of this group should spend more time on the obvious shared values that can be found in all humans regardless. A good example is empathy and compassion. Atheists tend to love science but for some reason seem to be sceptical of science when it comes to its findings and the application of empathy and compassion to people that adhere to religion. Just read the responses on this article user "atheitis" and "dracolusus" posts are classic examples. I am part of the Atheists/non-religous group but cannot identify with hypocritical humans that belittle others even if they were victims of such actions at some point. Two wrongs don't make a right.

      MagdaKus - 2012-12-18 11:01

      @ Allcoveredin Ninjas- in the sort of democratic countries I suggest we all have same rights. @ david.degoede.71 - I appreciate your views- this has also been my experience with atheists in real life as opposed to cyberspace- ie. cordial not the belittling sort (though I get the idea some of the more famous ones do encourage the belittling part in their documentaries that I have seen).

      david.degoede.71 - 2012-12-18 11:17

      Citations for what Atheitis ? If it is regarding Atheist as a small percentage of the non religious I hope the following articles are of some use to you. Pew found that 68% of the religiously unaffiliated say they believe in God, while 37% describe themselves as “spiritual” but not “religious.” One in five said that they even pray every day. http://www.pewforum.org/unaffiliated/nones-on-the-rise.aspx http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/ http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/october-12-2012/none-of-the-above-who-are-they/13386/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_but_not_religious http://www.pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethics/Scientists-and-Belief.aspx

      david.degoede.71 - 2012-12-18 11:30

      Atheitis I hope you can understand that this is forum where we debate with short sentences or paragraphs. I am in no position to know if you are a "good" person I can only judge you comments made. It is my opinion that for some religion is a crutch, for some a insurance policy, for some a cultural thing and for others it is a path to spirituality not many fundamental Atheist understand how abstract,transcendent and meaningful spiritually can be.

      david.degoede.71 - 2012-12-18 12:08

      Thank you Atheitis, You helped me Atheist are not a small part of the group they are 21 % - 24 % of the non religious group. You will also see in the following article that it is not the biggest growing segment of this group. http://www.pewforum.org/unaffiliated/nones-on-the-rise.aspx I have a issue with fundamentalism regardless of the motivation and your statement "The world certainly teems with unthinking and stupid people." sounded like somebody that decided that he knew exactly what went on inside the heads of religious humans. That is the opisite of empathy definition (The ability to understand and share the feelings of another)

      david.degoede.71 - 2012-12-18 13:55

      I like to play thank you, I am 42 years old and yes I am a kid at heart, I also believe in God. If you took the trouble of reading my replies to you, you would have learned that I am not religious and also do not identify myself as a Christian. More than that you know almost nothing of me. It would be a oversight on your part to think that people's perceptions of the ultimate is as simple as Religious Dogma or New Atheist allegations. If you are interested I can help you with some research or lets make it easy, go look at the best seller list for religion on Amazon. I do not think many people read these comments, but like so many others I am fascinated by the topic and love to read on it. I do also feel that the majority of society shows a amazing levels of tolerance towards statements made by SOME New Atheists. Such tolerance makes me proud to be a human and shows me that we are the better angels of our nature.

      david.degoede.71 - 2012-12-18 15:14

      Atheitis, Why is it important to you if I have evidence for God ? I have never asked you if you have evidence that your children liked you or if you are a good person. You offered the info. I have shared my believe in God with you in the same spirit. I doubt that you are really interested to have a adult conversation on the subject. You are welcome to change my opinion and we can consider experiential, scientific and philosophical models but cannot see that happening considering our current level of engagement. Good luck with the white rabbit, I would suggest you follow him into his warren one day, you will be amazed with the things on your way down there.

      david.degoede.71 - 2012-12-18 16:20

      Atheitis - You lost me, what are you saying ? Some Atheist have a passion for attacking and insulting religious people. Your comments suggest that you fit into that group. Most Atheist does not fit this group, my best friend is a Atheist and he does not mock the religious. I can name several Atheists that I regard as modern day moral compasses unfortunately I can also name several that does not help humanity. It is like that with all groups. Here is some links that might help. http://lateralaction.com/articles/engagement-conversations/ http://ccare.stanford.edu/aboutus/ccare The point about compassion and empathy is easy, if you want me to clarify that most animals react better to compassion rather than attacks, sarcasm and insults I can provide you with research.

      shannon.mcmurtrie.3 - 2012-12-19 19:05

      Hi David, I enjoy reading your take on things. You always reply honestly and without judgement. Atheitis could learn a lot from you. ;)

      joe.soapie.73 - 2012-12-20 09:37

      // Atheists tend to love science but for some reason seem to be sceptical of science when it comes to its findings and the application of empathy and compassion to people that adhere to religion. // I do love science but I'm never skeptical of it because I know that the people doing and providing the research and far more clued up on the topic than I am. I'd like to read the findings people have found with regards to the application of empathy and compassion to people that adhere to religion. In my personal capacity I have seen nothing that shows religious people are any more empathetic or compassionate than those of non-religion. Case in point, I've found myself (an atheist) to be far more compassionate and empathetic than many religious people I know. If you have a link to these findings, I'd appreciate it. :)

  • eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 10:27

    It's easy to understand why Christianity is the largest religion. It is based on faith in the good works of another and not on your own. Who wouldn't want to go to heaven by just having faith? But the real truth is that Christianity breeds immorality.

      isabellameyer - 2012-12-18 10:39

      EddyDeepfield another one of those wild sweeping statements with no facts to support it - Christianity breeds immorality? Wow. At least have some proof when making such statements.

      isabellameyer - 2012-12-18 10:41

      And Christian faith is not based on the good works of another. It's based in love, grace and the perfect sacrifice to reconcile man with God. For someone who speaks a lot about Christianity, I believe you understand very little.

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 10:50

      I think old Eddy heard the bell tolling but he doesn't seem to know where the clock is.

      isabellameyer - 2012-12-18 11:04

      Eddy it is not true. That is not Christianity. It's not about religion and rules - there you are right - trying to live a good life. But it IS about relationship. So if you have accepted grace into your life, you will love the Giver of grace and seek His heart, meaning you will build on your relationship by doing things to strengthen the love, respect and relationship with Jesus. So sitting in a church pew and throwing money into an offering bowl is not making you a Christian, I agree. The Bible is very clear - it speaks about the fruit of the Spirit - the things that will distinguish people living by the Spirit - Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Jesus says Christians will be known by their fruit. Not that atheists can't display those, but that through the Holy Spirit's help Christians strive and should strive for those. He has paid the price to have a relationship with us. That is the essence of Christianity. That we have been saved through scandalous grace - nothing we can do can ever earn that for us. But it does not mean that we can make the grace cheap, but living a selfish life. Then I question the relationship one has with God.

      isabellameyer - 2012-12-18 11:20

      @atheitis, do you include them in your stats that you quote? The Christians that's leaving the church. I didn't do the study, just commenting on it, as you are. Your sarcasm and derogatory depiction of people you barely know is not necessary.

      eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 15:28

      isablla - The belief that Christians do not have to follow the laws came from Paul. According to Paul, Christians are in essence, "lawless." This makes "sin" something of a paradox because a sin is defined as a transgression against God's laws--but there are no laws! This was evident when Paul first began preaching, as his followers began having orgies, and participating in all sorts of debauchery--because they believed they had no laws--so he had to backtrack a bit and tell the Corinthians that well, you can do anything, but not everything will be good for you. (1Cor. 10:23) Hmmm..... Unfortunately, even if there were "laws" to break, they would be redundant anyway, when anything can be forgiven as long as a believer sincerely "repents." There is no punishment for the "sinner" (as long as they don't get caught by the "secular" police!!) and no compensation for the victims under the Christian system either--making "sins" virtually meaningless. This is why Christianity in and of itself is immoral and unjust.

      eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 15:28

      The Romans suspected orgies and cannibalism among early Christians and all types of debauchery including sacrificing babies, and even witnessed it themselves. In the Octavius Chapter 9, Minucius Felix tells us of how the early Christians in Rome sacrifice "live" babies, rolled them in meal, cut off their limbs, and ate them, in "remembrance" of their "saviour." You can find the Octavius at books.google.com. Paul says "We '... are not under the law, but under grace.'" (Rom. 6:14) And, "... there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus ..." (Rom 8:1) This was backed up by admonishments not to judge others, and especially to refrain from accusing, "speaking evil", of Christian leaders, no matter what the provocation. So basically, anything goes, even when there is no visible repentance. After all, "once saved, always saved."

      eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 15:31

      This illustrates the fact, that for you as a Christian, doing good or doing bad has no relevance. I guess because since you believe in Jesus you believe you will be rewarded with heaven, and thus, whether you are a saint or a devil, it makes no difference to you! This Christian position is exactly the Christian position I set out in my post, and as I argued, it is this Christian position that leads to "moral laxity", which was also recognized long ago by the great Christian philosopher, Pelagius. Look up Pelagius and learn something for a change.

      isabellameyer - 2012-12-18 18:22

      http://www.gotquestions.org/not-under-the-law.html gives a pretty good explanation of law vs grace. You can not take the portions of Paul out of context or standalone - it is part of the larger context of the Bible. Jesus said I've come to fulfill the law, not to abolish it. Please read the article. And as far as I know the Romans were the ones who started sacrificing babies and having orgies etc. etc. And people saying they are Christians, and then behave however they want to, are not necessarily real Christians. Even Jesus said that people would do miracles in His name and He would say I know you not. Eddydeepfield, I wish we could have a long conversation - this is not the best way to do so. You are right that doing bad or good, does not make a way to eternal life or eternal damnation. That is what grace is for. However, it does reflect on whether I am in a genuine relationship or not.

  • Werewabbit - 2012-12-18 10:39

    so Atheists make up 20% of the population, making them the third most popular belief system? I want to know what numbers are growing, where and why

      carmen.erlebach - 2012-12-18 11:01

      Here's a recent one http://metro.co.uk/2012/12/11/census-2011-christian-numbers-fall-with-atheism-on-the-rise-3311594/

      isabellameyer - 2012-12-18 11:06

      Atheitis, you have repeated this over and over and over again. The fact remains that 32% are still Christian believers. Your point is? There are people that are changing their views, doesn't change the current fact of 32% of people still believing in grace and relationship with God.

  • mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 10:39

    You must suffer from complete ignorance and be totally oblivious to reality if you believe that there is no God. Have the atheists discovered and or disclosed the identity of the "One" who created it all. If it was a "big bang" (which it probably was)please name the "scientist" who was the catalyst responsible for setting of the chain of events? These turkeys really are on road to nowhere, I'd rather believe in something than spend my life taking cheap shots at people who are at least committed to something.

      isabellameyer - 2012-12-18 11:08

      Hey Mike. I know it is frustrating, but you are called to love brother, not decrying people's differences of opinion or giving them back the hate they spew. You can not convince them, but you can have patience and love them. God bless you.

      polya314 - 2012-12-18 13:44

      All that we're (atheists and agnostics) saying is that since we don't understand the universe at the moment (not in its entirety, I mean); the only intellectually honest thing to say is that you're unsure as to the existence of God. You can believe from that gap, but claims that your god is "the one living god" or "my lord and personal savior" are highly suspect, albeit personal and necessary to you. In the same way that Christians want to share the joy of the "lord" with others, atheists and agnostics want to communicate their own reasons for their worldview. It's an important debate, what could be more important? But, also, don't confuse questioning and difficult challenges to the legitimacy of your faith, with "cheap shots". In the end, of course, we must all make up our own minds - what that's based on is entirely up to you. Don't judge atheism and agnosticism on the basis of how you think the world should be, judge them on the basis of how the world is - whatever conclusion you reach, it's yours to reach, that's the central tenet I would say of most Atheists and Agnostics.

      clive.pops.5 - 2012-12-19 13:43

      Mike,onyour home page you claim to "hate reading books". It shows.

      george.frangs - 2012-12-20 10:56

      I haven't been taking cheap shots at anyone for being christian, but they are the ones who keep telling me I'm going to hell and that I lack morality and values. Good christian logic.

  • Raymon - 2012-12-18 10:54

    All you militant atheists can do is criticize. Your comments and insults are just hollow words without substance or meaning. Who cares anyway what you think... God speed....

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 13:02

      Think about it, they can only criticize, as they have no opinions for themselves. There comes a time in everbody's life where you cannot substantiate everything with concrete evidence. You just have to believe and they refer to such as being idiotic - Why is PI 22/7? Does it really matter? or is it more important to accept that in the absence of any counter evidence it is and will remain 22/7.

      polya314 - 2012-12-18 13:34

      Mike thinks an irrational number can be expressed as a rational number. The Pythagoreans will be pleased.

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 16:15

      Atheist why have a go at the bible and God if I made mistake? Don't you have the self confidence to take me on? Doesn't look like it by your reaction....Oh and incidentally boet you are now really losing it...PI according to google is 22/7 or 3.14*. Now really I am starting to enjoy you losing your pose and your cool with me. You must listen, I told you about ten minutes ago ...give a man enough rope and he hangs hims self. And true to form he does it again.

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 19:04

      @mike.Olwagen: "Atheist why have a go at the bible and God if I made mistake? Don't you have the self confidence to take me on?" Oh, they did. You just didn't like the answers, therefore you ignore it. Then you try another form of Pascal's Wager. What if you were wrong and Brahma awaits you after death...you might come back as a cockroach....

      polya314 - 2012-12-18 22:39

      22/7 is only an approximation. Do we need to spell this s***t out for you? You've offered nothing at all, you're just saying bizarre things like we must just "accept" that pi is 22/7 (it's not) and then concluding from there that freethinkers are somehow delusional. You strike me as someone who has never heard or read an argument that runs contrary to your opinion, rather than waste my time - go buy a book and see that your worldview isn't nearly as airtight as you suppose. By the way, lose the gun-slinging Christian attitude, this isn't Texas.

      clive.pops.5 - 2012-12-19 13:47

      It's no good polya314, Mike doesn't read books; he says he hates it. That much is at least evident.

  • Mbuso Nhlaka Da-Gumza Gumede - 2012-12-18 10:57

    interesting comments keep them coming

      george.frangs - 2012-12-20 10:58

      This is far more entertaining than work! :P

  • Nicole Soccer-Babe Take - 2012-12-18 11:00

    you people just dont get it do you? Christianity is a way of life for all not another religious group like others,even you must be come Christian! yes you who call yourself Atheist,you are a God's child not atheist

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 13:05

      The sum total of Atheist's contribution to this forum is to "bash" Sad if it is not within your realm to add a bit of value.

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 14:01

      @mike.Olwagen: "The sum total of Atheist's contribution to this forum is to "bash" Sad if it is not within your realm to add a bit of value." I disagree. Atheists did make very rational comments, while the religious people who commented had no answers or either ignored the answers given. All religious people could do was to provide "arguments" like argumentum ad populum or forms of Pascal's Wager. debates like these really helped me to turn from being a fundy christian to radical atheist. Religious people don't have any arguments. They try to avoid any questions and claim that, when people don't believe exactly as they do, they are "bashed".

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 16:19

      @ Derek Meyer - With all due respect. Any person that believes matter is created out of nothing ie. not even a "big bang" chemical reaction I'd say leaves himself a bit open criticism to put it diplomatically. Even your staunchest fellow atheists will advise you to take a cold shower after that one.

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 16:20

      @ Atheist Again just "bashing" in the absence of substance and or value add.

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 19:10

      @mike.olwagen: "@ Derek Meyer - With all due respect. Any person that believes matter is created out of nothing ie. not even a "big bang" chemical reaction I'd say leaves himself a bit open criticism to put it diplomatically. Even your staunchest fellow atheists will advise you to take a cold shower after that one. " mike.olwagen, with no respect at all- atheists don't belive in the existence of a God or Gods. That's it. Nothing to do with "matter being created out of nothing" or the Big Bang or whatever, at all. Maybe if you got a bit of an education before commenting, you might earn a bit of respect. In the meantime, you're nothing.

  • zaaristotle - 2012-12-18 11:05

    I'm not sure all the info is here, but checking the numbers the 3rd largest group would be people who are not affiliated to any kind of religion? Most interesdting.

  • marilyn.paine.1 - 2012-12-18 11:13

    "The worldwide demographic study of more than 230 countries and territories found that more than eight people in 10 - about 5.8 billion people - identify with a religious group." To identify with Christianity does not make one a Christian. There is only one way to be a Christian - accepting the son of God, Jesus, as your Lord and Saviour.

      nazeem.majiet.7 - 2012-12-18 11:22

      Dear Marilyn, I trust you are well,I think you should consider the following points made in this article with following link http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/A-story-of-a-revert-20120516

      carmen.erlebach - 2012-12-18 11:47

      Cyberfriend. Did I read your article correctly? You decided to leave your husband because he wasn't a muslim like you? The only thing that saved your marriage was because he converted. Proof, right there, that religion divides people. Shame on you.

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 11:55

      @ Atheist - Not answering my questions and heading for the hills. My distinct summation. Even Homer Simpson has better arguments than an atheist (sic). That unfortunately happens when you shoot off your load prematurely.

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 13:10

      Well said that encaptulates it all in my opinion.

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 16:24

      @ Atheist - Again such an amateur attempt at being patronizing! Carry on, I believe the forumites have enough sense/reading material to have seen through you by now.

      eren.ramdhani - 2012-12-19 07:52

      I'm not an aethiest and believe in god and jesus, and also believe we are all children of god. God will still love me if I dont choose to take jesus as my ONLY savior as the world existed before jesus. Also believe in the Torah, Bhagvad Gita and Quran. I dont see why everything has to be mutually exclusive

      george.frangs - 2012-12-20 11:00

      Could we PLEASE leave the Simpsons out of this?

  • colin.langley - 2012-12-18 11:14

    Jesus Christ! Are they sure? Oh my God if they are right this world is going to get rather crap deal

  • rose.laatz - 2012-12-18 11:59

    Our God is in control.

      mbossenger - 2012-12-18 12:23

      He seems to have missed a shooting in the US.....

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 13:07

      No that's positive. And you are not bashing the atheist are you. You don't need to.

      mbossenger - 2012-12-18 15:29

      "Our God is in control" - then you are in real trouble, since god allows children to be raped, innocent people to be murdered in cold blood, and his worshippers to suffer horribly with all kinds of diseases, but as long as he's in control, eh?

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-18 16:26

      Why do you slander my God if you have an issue with me. Don't you have the self belief and confidence to take me on? Leave Him out of it, take me on!

      mbossenger - 2012-12-18 17:02

      Okay mike - let me put it this way. I don't believe in any god, not the christian god, not the muslim god, not the hindu god(s), not thor, not zeus - you get the idea. I don't believe god is responsible for any of the beauty or ills of the world, since there is no god. When I make comments along the lines of "god allows children to be raped" I am referring to your own doctrine as you are the one who believes in an omniscient omnipotent god - you are the one believing god allows children to be raped, therefore you had better come up with a doozie of an explanation as to why you worship a god who allows (or in fact ordains) that such events take place. So rest assured, mike, I'm not slandering your non existent deity, I am slandering you and your beliefs and the mental gymnastics you are forced to perform to justify your belief in such an abhorrent entity.

  • derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 12:23

    Only 32% are Christians (remember, this includes Catholics and Protestants and JW's and Mormons and all those more than 30 000 other sects)? This points to a very underperforming "omnipotent" God or Gods, if He/They exist.

  • nervern - 2012-12-18 12:23

    Lol. Is it ok if I believe in evolution but with a creator? I personally don't fall for the genesis story...but still I believe there is a creator that made everything possible. Any opinions on that?

      jamma.fanaka - 2012-12-18 12:41

      Evolution is Not just a subject, it's is a religion to take God out of the picture. Think: Why apes don't evolve today? Was your great great great great great great parents animals? Use logic, It makes sense that God created evrything. By the way, not even God will convince you to believe. Either you believe or you don't.

      mbossenger - 2012-12-18 12:53

      Evolution is not a religion - it is a scientific theory supported by multiple linesof evidence such as the fossil record and genetics, to name but two. Also, who claims apes are not evolving?

      jamma.fanaka - 2012-12-18 13:04

      A theory isn't a fact, and if science is contradicting the Word and taking God out the picture then it becomes a relion... If you commenting from an evolved ape's point of view I understand.

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 13:04

      @jamma.fanaka: "Evolution is Not just a subject, it's is a religion to take God out of the picture. Think: Why apes don't evolve today? Was your great great great great great great parents animals? Use logic, It makes sense that God created evrything. By the way, not even God will convince you to believe. Either you believe or you don't." That's strange, as the overwelming majority of Christian Biologists accept the theory of evolution. Biologists are the specialists on the subject. Are you trying to say that the overwhelming majority of Christian Biologists have two religions?

      mbossenger - 2012-12-18 13:09

      "A theory isn't a fact" - Another one who doesn't understand what a scientific theory is. "and if science is contradicting the Word and taking God out the picture then it becomes a relion" - Science is completely neutral on the exitence of god. If you are claiming god exists, it's up to you to provide evidence in favour of the claim "If you commenting from an evolved ape's point of view I understand." - As opposed to what. Here's the bad news for you bud - humans are apes and we share a common ancestor with other modern apes. And there is plenty of evidenceto back up this comment. And I don't care what your little book of fairy tales says that may contradict that statement.

      jamma.fanaka - 2012-12-18 13:15

      @Derek.Meyer I can't speak on behalf of them and also my opinions aren't intended to change anyone's views. Note also: even for those who believe in God and the bible, not everyone will be saved. I just believe in what the bible says, that God created all things... Respect to other people's beliefs

      jamma.fanaka - 2012-12-18 13:20

      @mbossenger I respect your choice, views and opinions coz we all have a right to believe and choose whatever we want..

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 13:26

      @jamma.fanaka: "@Derek.Meyer I can't speak on behalf of them and also my opinions aren't intended to change anyone's views. Note also: even for those who believe in God and the bible, not everyone will be saved. I just believe in what the bible says, that God created all things... Respect to other people's beliefs" You did not answer my question. The overwhelming majority of Christian Biologists accept the theory of evolution. Biologists are the specialists on biology and the theory of evolution. Are you implying that the overwhelming majority of Christian Biologists have two religions? Do you think that those Christian Biologists have two religions?

      adele.kendall.16 - 2012-12-18 13:33

      Jamma //A theory isn't fact// You do not understand the correct meaning of the word, let me help you. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=scientific+theory

      carmen.erlebach - 2012-12-18 13:42

      Brilliant Adele!

      goldd.goldfinger - 2012-12-18 14:34

      Religious people like jamma are exactly the kind of people who display what is wrong with religions, deliberately telling lies about evolution to the poor uninformed masses which makes up the largest number of the billions of Christianity. Its very easy to see that jamma has no idea what evolution is about as evidence by this idiotic statement "Think: Why apes don't evolve today"..This is exactly why atheists get so riled up and militant because of these blatant lies and deception used by the believers

      mbossenger - 2012-12-18 15:37

      "we all have a right to believe and choose whatever we want" - but you do not have the right to redefine what constitutes a scientific theory.

  • jamma.fanaka - 2012-12-18 12:35

    Christians may make the most in numbers but they're also the least commited unlike other religions. PS_If my people would but listen to Me, if Israel would follow My ways,.. (Psalm 81:13)

      Tony-Lapson - 2012-12-18 13:55

      The least committed and the least likely to be extremist.

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 15:05

      @jamma.fanaka: "Christians may make the most in numbers but they're also the least commited unlike other religions. "PS_If my people would but listen to Me, if Israel would follow My ways,.. (Psalm 81:13)" No, they don't. Christians only make up 32% of the world population. That certainly is not "most in numbers". Other religions make up "most in numbers". Non-Christian religious people make up more than 50% of the world population. 3.6 billion.

  • freddie.s.swart - 2012-12-18 12:57

    @atheistes. You mention people with sometimes quiestionble views of God and make it as if it is the norm. That is stereotyping at its best. 8 out of 10 have a different type of view. By the way. You call christians as people who judge other. Who are we to judge. I believe atheism is also a type of religion and that is the worshipping of mankind and trying to convince himself and other that there is no god. If you want to go that path, that is your choice. The after life wil judge us al, believers and non believers in God.

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 13:36

      @freddie.s.swart: "@atheistes. You mention people with sometimes quiestionble views of God and make it as if it is the norm. That is stereotyping at its best. 8 out of 10 have a different type of view. By the way. You call christians as people who judge other. Who are we to judge. I believe atheism is also a type of religion and that is the worshipping of mankind and trying to convince himself and other that there is no god. If you want to go that path, that is your choice. The after life wil judge us al, believers and non believers in God." Catholics make up more than 50% of the Christians. Are you a Catholic? If you are (I doubt it though, since you have an Afrikaans surname) why do you think that Protestants and Mormons have "questionable views" of God? If you're not a Catholic, what makes you think that Catholics have "questionable views" of God? You see, that's the problem religious people have: there's no "norm". Even though you want to think there is. Even in Christianity there are Catholics and Protestants and Mormons and Eastern Orthodox, etc. That all together, makes up only 32% of the world population. Then you also have Muslims and Hindus and Jews; etc, etc. There is no norm in religion. What you believe is not important, at all. Your're not special, even though you want to be. It's what you can demonstrate that counts.

  • richard.jooste.142 - 2012-12-18 13:29

    Atheists,why are you so sure that what the bible says about Jesus Christ is not historical fact ? Why are you sure that when science has got to grips with all natural laws it won't discover that they were made by God who is the creator of everything. Science is limited to the natural and God is supernatural. You can't see further than your nose.You are living in darkness.Finally, some of the greatest minds that ever lived were and are Christians - does that not tell you something. A major part of your problem is a lack of humility - you worship yourself.

      carmen.erlebach - 2012-12-18 14:12

      "some of the greatest minds that ever lived were and are Christians" I think you're the one worshipping yourself.

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 14:35

      @Richard.jooste.142:"Atheists,why are you so sure that what the bible says about Jesus Christ is not historical fact ?" The same reasons we have for not believing that Brahma is a God. For example, the Rigveda mentions the Ganges and lots of other historical places; but that doesn't mean that Brahma is a God. No verifiable evidence for the existence of a God or Gods.

      adele.kendall.16 - 2012-12-18 14:36

      I don't reject the fact that Jesus might have existed as a mere mortal. If he did exist he was nothing more than a babbling preacher who had a following. There is no evidence to suggest that he is the son of God or that he performed any miracles.

      goldd.goldfinger - 2012-12-18 14:37

      We have read the Bible!

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 20:05

      @richard.jooste.142: "Finally, some of the greatest minds that ever lived were and are Christians - does that not tell you something." Finally, some of the greatest minds that ever lived certainly were and are not Christians - does that not tell you something." See, we can all play that game. In the meantime, there's absolutely no verifiable evidence for the existence of a God or Gods.

  • navashnie.nair - 2012-12-18 13:38

    @ atheitis... Christianity is a way of life and not a religion. I cannot speak for other people and defend all those ministers that you have mentioned, however I can say this... yes we cannot show physical evidence that there is a GOD but you can hear of people's testimonials of how their life changed after they have accepted JESUS into their lives. It is an experience that only you can ask JESUS for. Just because we cannot see the air doesnt stop us from breathing, so why then when we cannot see JESUS must we stop believing. I do not follow a preacher but i read the word of GOD and ask GOD what his messages are about. I have a personal relationship with GOD. If you do not belive me, try it for yourself. One day when u lying in bed, ask GOD to reveal himself to you, and I can guarantee without a shadow of doubt that something miraculous will happen to you that you will not be able to explain to others. I know that you do not believe in GOD but try it, you will never know if you do not try. I am not asking you to become a christian but to just try something new. Be Blessed and I pray you will give it a try.

      adele.kendall.16 - 2012-12-18 13:44

      Navashnie, air exists and can be collected, measured, quantified, analysed and documented. You cannot test for the presence of Jesus because it is non-existent.

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 14:42

      @navashie.nair: "yes we cannot show physical evidence that there is a GOD but you can hear of people's testimonials of how their life changed after they have accepted JESUS into their lives." And Muslims show people's testimonials of how their life changed after they accepted Allah into their lives. And Elvis supporters show people's testimonials of how their life changed after they accepted Elvis into their lives. What's your point? Verifiable evidence for the existence of a God or Gods would count.

  • adriaan.mostert - 2012-12-18 13:44

    Not for looonnngg! :-) http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/the-decline-of-evangelical-america.html?hp&_r=0 http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/16/secular-britain-ruled-by-religious-bureaucrats http://metro.co.uk/2012/12/11/census-2011-christian-numbers-fall-with-atheism-on-the-rise-3311594/

      adriaan.mostert - 2012-12-18 15:05

      Atheitis: With pleasure! :-)

  • navashnie.nair - 2012-12-18 13:54

    @ just a girl, i said we cannot see air, yes you have a point but we cannot see air. But same message, try the exercise as well.

      adele.kendall.16 - 2012-12-18 14:08

      Navashnie, what kind of personal relationship do you have with Jesus? Does he answer your prayers, speak to you, what miracles has he granted you?

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 14:38

      We do have verifiable evidence for the existence of air. None for the existence of a God or Gods. What's your point?

  • ken.freeman.739 - 2012-12-18 13:56

    At least christians have hope (and belief) of a better life to come.Those who do not believe in GOD have no hope for themselves,But there is still hope for them as GOD loves them too.

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 15:09

      More bad news for you. Seeing that non-Christian religious people make up more than 50% of the world population, those people who believe in God think that you don't have any hope for a better life to come....you'll be frying for ever.

  • enlightened.bowman - 2012-12-18 13:58

    Sh-t. That explains the world recession. NO further comments and none required.

  • carmen.erlebach - 2012-12-18 14:18

    Gert_Swart posted this on another article but I'm posting it again. Atheists, get counted. http://www.atheistcensus.com/

  • navashnie.nair - 2012-12-18 14:38

    my GOD has done alot of miracles for me. My mother was healed of cancer and yes HE does speak to me. i cannot explain it, you have to experience it for yourself. @ atheitist.... my GOD is not useless... challenge him if you dare :-) TRY the exercise. Seek and you shall find. GOD bless you both :-)

      carmen.erlebach - 2012-12-18 14:42

      I hope you thanked the doctors who healed your mother.

      adele.kendall.16 - 2012-12-18 14:56

      Medical science is amazing isn't it, pity religions suppress advancement?

      polya314 - 2012-12-18 22:46

      Cool! Who needs medicine? Or anything really; just get the local pastor to heal people - it's not stone-age at all!

  • chris.braum - 2012-12-18 14:42

    Missed are the Agnostics. I believe, or would like to believe, that their numbers make up the majority of the remaining (less than 20%) mentioned in the article. Although not convinced themselves, they are usually open to cordial discussion in their endeavour to find the truth; they generally understand the difference between education and intelligence, and the difference between intelligence and wisdom. Although the Agnostic has no affiliation to any of the mainstream religions, they generally live to the moral and humane principals common to all these religions. For this reason I would tend to included the Agnostic as part of the larger group. The couple of thousand (my estimate, could be a little more) non-believers, who consider themselves educated scientists; who accept any of the latest scientific theories as true until proven false but openly reject God because His existence (they believe) cannot be proven true; who, like the scientists of Climategate, willingly and deceitfully ignore, alter or manipulate scientific studies that may hurt their argument (such as ignoring "...in which religious affiliation was based on self-identification" from the article above), and always resort to belittling and insulting their opponents in their endeavour to coerce others to accept their weak premises. Their numbers are indeed insignificant, yet their influence with weak and corrupt politicians is a cause for concern. The majority shall prevail!

      chris.braum - 2012-12-18 15:42

      Atheist, how exactly does one recognise the influence if a) one is not looking for it, and b) one does not believe that it exists. Take, for instance, the amount of time, effort and money spent on finding extraterrestrial life; I read of a scientist's view that this would prove that the formation of life is spontaneous and thus makes God causation redundant. Could you explain the rationale behind this assumption?

      chris.braum - 2012-12-18 17:10

      Let's look at your reply from the bottom up. It didn't end the argument when he showed us his love by sending his only Son. Why would a devout follower have any reason to be embarrassed? Arguments are only horrible in the mind of beholder. The last statement isn't an answer but just an observation and a dangerous one for a man of science to use as a premise for an argument. Why would evolution, which no doubt is true, render Genesis false. If we expect the bible to be a scientific manuscript, we could surely pull it apart. The bible is a spiritual manuscript and deals with the soul of man. Science, through genetics, contends that all humans on earth descend from one woman. What science cannot tell us is if her name was Eve or not or what sin she may have committed. So thankfully, for me at least, evolution has not made Jesus' death in vain. Finding life anywhere in our universe (or beyond for that matter) would do nothing to negate the bible or it's account of creation. It would be very interesting to have a chat to an intelligent extraterrestrial to see how we all fit into God's creation. One thought comes to mind! If these intelligent extraterrestrials were perhaps as intelligent ans man will be in 6000 years time, would they not look at us and think: "...nothing more than the tales of uneducated, superstitious Silica Age sheep." :-)

      chris.braum - 2012-12-18 23:05

      There are as many fundamentalists in the scientific camp as there are in the religious camp. Neither want to learn or progress from their point of stagnation. To debate them is an exercise in futility. God Bless!

  • stanley.esterhuizen.7 - 2012-12-18 14:45

    stateregyll: hola atheists & religious people - your only real point of diversion is that religious people personalize their God, which atheists dont. Atheists call him Science or Nobody. Same thing, different name.

      polya314 - 2012-12-19 23:12

      We really don't have a god, that's kind-of the point. You're so warped into your worldview that you can't even conceive of a person not-having a god. If that's not indoctrination, then "1984" isn't the book I thought it was.

  • hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-18 14:54

    After reading the article I knew that every atheist is going to have a mouth full in the harshest possible way. And I was not wrong. Or should I say as an atheist said to me..Typical atheist. What really make me wonders is that if you take all the ATHEIST ON HERE OR FOR THAT MATTER IN THE WORLD and get there opinion on why there is not God and where they are going when they die.. you know, just a few basic questions, you will probably get a different answer from each one. Though they are on here with a lot of bravado and self importance, very bright men and women in their own minds. they have figure the most important and biggest question an a few years. Questions that no man will probably be able to answer in any number of lifetimes. Just really funny how bright the atheists .. How free and not indoctrination to use their word. Why don't you guys and gals rather start looking deep inside and maybe acknowledge that you were just plain S$%t Christians and probably human beings as well. And copping out of the Living God's mercy was just a way not to feel bad about your sins anymore. The wise men and women who does not believe in God. Ahh but I assume that a genetic DNA string containing millions or "code" so as to put is has all developed all by it self from Nothing.. Q$#%^ How much sense does that make.

      hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-18 15:39

      Atheist. Hahahaha.. At last you show the full capacity of your intelect. Go dude!!!!

      hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-18 16:35

      Atheist. You funny man. Ha ha ha. Or should I say you have proven my point that you cant think past then end of your nose. For the record. Was typing it while driving on my Tab. But its obvious that you think really 1 dimentional. Anyway. You are right.. meaning it is what you think it is. Nothing un christian like about it. Shows you how little you know about Christians. Anyway. Whatever tickles your fancy

      polya314 - 2012-12-18 22:48

      It didn't develop from nothing. It developed from self-replicating molecules and then via evolution by natural selection.

      hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-19 06:58

      atheist. Ha ha ha. You really are funny and your ignorance really shows. Do you really think Jesus is bothered if I type and drive. Man made laws. I propose. Go catch up on what Jesus, God and Christianity really is about them people may stop thinking youre an idiot. Enough time wasted on you. Come back when you know what you are talking about. Poly: what was meant from Nothing was purely that nothing like that (DNA) existed. What made them came together in such complex way. What is a self replicating molecule?. Been in science for quite some time and has never heard of that.

      polya314 - 2012-12-19 08:36

      DNA is an example of a self-replicating molecule. There are others. Was it necessarily complex? Who knows? We can obviously only make use of evidence to deduce the conditions of the early earth. This is an ongoing research question, and I'm not an expert: but the idea of a self-replicating molecule seems entirely plausible to me. You may of course extrapolate from this that a god exists; I don't, mostly because supernatural explanations have never been needed for an indefinite amount of time to explain the natural world. No-doubt you'll sing and dance about how we "don't know" means I'm stupid for being an agnostic, but, human understanding of the natural world has an amazing track-record: as you know, coming from a scientific background. In the end, I would advise against you basing your belief in god on parts of the natural world that can't, as yet, be explained by Science.

      hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-19 09:06

      Poly: All good and well. I understand and had a look on wikipedia what it is. You are right, DNA is a self replicating molecule. But I also know that DNA consist of just normal Chemical elements such as Carbon, nucleic Acid, protein (Which is in itself a fairly complex molecule). So all these Molecules, atoms etc was floating in the air somewhere... and just came together to form DNA which is a Self replicating molecule, which by the way makes it even more spectacular.. and in my opinion even less likely that it could just have happened without intervention. Just remember you make one big mistake to separate God and Science. God created science, it is His creation (physics/chemistry/Ecology etc etc). And science do provide us with quite a few of the Laws of nature or creation if you like. I have difficulty in understanding why atheist put science on the on side and god on the other. Science was not without God

      harvey.dent.16547008 - 2012-12-19 14:53

      "Do you really think Jesus is bothered if I type and drive." The point is not the fact that you are typing while you drive. That act in itself is not immoral. The real point is the lack of concern that you have for the people around you while you do this. You must be one of those folks that believe they have the perfect ability to multitask while your car swerves all over the road. But hey, your god will forgive you when you run over that child on his/her way to school that you didn't see because you just had to look down to type that last word. Oh wait, it will never happen to you, you are just that good and god is watching over you. The arrogance of some people.

      polya314 - 2012-12-19 23:24

      Smurwe, The way I see it, god is supernatural, therefore his actions are supernatural. Science is the study of the natural, therefore Science has nothing to say about god or his actions - for some atheists or agnostics this is a "heresy", but that's a separate issue. Perhaps god may have created the laws of the universe, perhaps he may have caused the promulgation of life - perhaps not. The only reasonable stance is to say "we don't know"; though I personally think a natural explanation will show itself soon (call it an inkling of faith, but supported strongly by historical evidence, I might add). Either way, one really can't conclude that because an event was unlikely, that a supernatural explanation becomes the explanation - I don't think I need to motivate this.

      hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-20 07:17

      DinkumTroll. So let me get what you saying right. You have never talked on your phone while driving, you have never sms while driving.. Or loooked down to get maybe sigarettes or a chocolate or to change the radio station, or a CD for the radio or a nice lade walking beside the road. ??? I tell you I have seen many men driving off the road looking at women. What is the difference between me typing a letter on my tab and drive over a child and you putting a new CD in the radio and swerwe and drive over a child? Let me further get it... If you drive in a 60km zone at speed 60 and by accident drive over a child its ok, no problem, you were in the law, and if you drive at 61km same place and drive over a child then itrs a problem. So you never speed?? For that is dangerous and inconsiderate. .??? I call you in your face a hypocryt and to add on to you last point. You obviously have not thought your comment through properly, so all I CAN SAY (Caps lock is for my friend Atheist ;-) ) the stupidity of some people. Let me give you a quick Christianity 101 lesson. With God it works with intend. Do you intend to kill some one, or were you changing you CD/ type the word on the tab and by accident drive over some one. As the bible say, when you see a beautiful woman not to even think udultorous thoughs for then it is as good as you have committed the deed

      hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-20 07:29

      Poly. I undertsand what you are saying. I think we all know by knw that energy it the force around which things are happening so to put. To an extend that thought is energy and can create things. God has that ability to do that much faster and with greater efectivity than any human will ever be able to. Nothing funny about it. Its seen as supernatural simply because we do not have an explanation for it. And before you thing I take anything away from God. Not at all. He created it. Hence the fact that me as Christian, when I pray, it creates and energy and God can read that. God has created this physical world the way it is, but strictly speaking we are also in contact with the spiritual world by thought. Magic so to put it basically boils donw to the ability to manipulate energy into things, hence Jesus was able to multiply the bread and fish. That is just how God created it. And yes, we will never know even a drop in the ocean of what God intended and his power. From my viewpoint God is science, you cannot seperate the two, yes God is also much more that that, but his energy created everything the way He wanted it. Anyway, thank you for an interesting debate. I can see you do think about things in an openminded way

      harvey.dent.16547008 - 2012-12-20 10:54

      As I said, the arrogance of some people. I do everything I can to avoid having an accident that includes never having operated my cell phone while driving, never changing a cd while the car is in motion, got steering wheel controls so no need to look down to change station or skip a track, it's one click of a button, don't smoke and don't eat or drink while moving. In fact never do anything that requires me to take my attention away from the road or remove my hands from the vehicle controls. But I'm sure you'll hold onto your c*cky attitude right up until the day one of your family members is killed by an inconsiderate idiot doing something else when he should be concentrating on driving. Also, nowhere did I ever say it is ok under any circumstance to knock over anyone, whether you are doing 60km/h or 180km/h. The point is to minimise the risk. And your little christianity 101 lesson is the most arrogant of your assertions. I don't care if your intent is to not cause the death of someone, if you are doing something irresponsible and negligent (ie AVOIDABLE - that includes speeding, drunk driving, operating cell phone/tablet while driving) at the time of the accident then you are guilty of murder. I can shoot a gun into the air without intending to kill someone, but if that bullet comes down and hits someone, it's still murder. But I'm sure your arrogance will let you continue to do what ever you want and stuff anybody else that your actions may effect.

  • stanley.esterhuizen.7 - 2012-12-18 14:55

    religious people and atheists, you worship the same deity - where religious God is everywhere, all the time: science has that too - given the double-slit experiment, 'cept Science got to get a bit smarter than bi-locativity. stop squabbling - tomaeto tomarto

  • richard.jooste.142 - 2012-12-18 15:02

    Atheitist et al. It is so hilarious getting you guys all stoked up. As they say: " Thou protest too much !" If you really thought it was all a lot of bollocks you wouldn't go on and on about it.Believe it or not there are many like you who have eventually seen the light ( stoke! stoke ! )Can't wait for another chuckle !

      hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-18 15:33

      Richard. Agree. And for me the thing that i ponder on is how intelligent people will rather believe that a DNA string (as mentioned above) have been created by itself out of nothing than by Gods intervention. DNA who litterally has,millions of source code so to speak.. It has all apeared out of n..NOTHING

      eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 15:48

      richard - There is a "culture war" going on. Fundamentalists are moving toward radically changing the institutions and character of our world. If the non-religious are unsuccessful in stopping the spread of Biblical literalism, then we are headed towards what? You tell me , yes a Bible state.

      hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-18 16:40

      Atheist. The intelect again. Yes the full caps were just for you so you also has something to say. Aint it Christian like?

  • eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 15:32

    This illustrates the fact, that for you as a Christian, doing good or doing bad has no relevance. I guess because since you believe in Jesus you believe you will be rewarded with heaven, and thus, whether you are a saint or a devil, it makes no difference to you! This Christian position is exactly the Christian position I set out in my post, and as I argued, it is this Christian position that leads to "moral laxity", which was also recognized long ago by the great Christian philosopher, Pelagius. Look up Pelagius and learn something for a change.

  • eren.ramdhani - 2012-12-18 15:34

    A supreme creator of everything in the universe surely exists. Something cant come from nothing. I personally believe in the moral fibre preached by ALL religions but am more spiritual. God sends representatives to earth at different times based on what is needed - Jesus, Muhammed, Krishna, Buddha etc. Why is the churh, mosques, temples opposed to science? Surely God used science as a mechanism to create e.g. Big Bang, Evolution etc. it does not have to be diametically opposed. When younger, I was a stalwart for the big bang theory and evolution and totally discounted religion. These days, If you look at the perfect ratios thats present in nature, I now believe it is too co-incidental for life to have been created by random chance. The distance of the earth to the sun or the moon to the earth or the milky way to the next galaxy all proves that there is a grand designer that architected it all. The relationship and ratios between predators and prey, pollinators of plants etc. Who does the athiests explain feelings of love, sadness, happiness, aesthetics and beauty. How about this? "God" (who might not have a human looking face - he is way too important for us to have been created in his image), is more of a supreme force. He creates the intent for life to want to live and change and evolve. He has created the rules of creation and destruction and is therefore the greatest scientist of all. The simplest of life forms is way tooooo perfect and beautiful to have beencreatedfrom 0

      polya314 - 2012-12-19 23:44

      1. We don't know how the universe was "started", but it's a non sequitur to say that it was god. He/she might have come into being at the same point, who knows? 2. Suppose there's a hole in the ground. It rains and a conscious puddle finds itself neatly contained in the hole. It says: "This hole is perfect, it fits me just-right." You can't conclude god's existence from a favorable set of initial conditions. Put another way: there are hundreds of millions of hands in the game of bridge. To say that since you got a particular hand that allowed you to win the game, that there is a god is false logic. The situations are equivalent because to say that god wouldn't interfere in a game of cards is to assume knowledge of the object in-question, and also to say that the power necessary is smaller compared to creation is to miss the point of infinity. 3. Emotions are important to human beings, their existence does not imply the existence of a supreme power - it's the pathetic fallacy. 4. To say that a life-form is perfect or complex is to summon a host of prejudices and suppositions that are uniquely human. Many view simple algebra as horribly complex, some don't. This is the disparity of views in one species! What of the view of the world from a sentient rock (which may exist in some far-flung world), will it have the same idea of perfection and complexity? Do our notions of the world necessarily determine it? 5. God's unknowable; you can't hope to know his motives, what you said is speculation.

  • richard.jooste.142 - 2012-12-18 15:36

    Atheitis et al. Come on , chaps, please don't disappoint me. I love a good chuckle !

      eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 15:51

      I read the Bible to get a laugh. You read it to build up your faith. Who is right? Science of course, only fanatics and the mentally ill believe the Bible.

      hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-19 07:06

      Atheist. Blah blah blah. Eddy. Tell you what. Keep on reading the bible just for a laugh. It may just save you one day. Hopefully the penny will drop for you. Hmmm 2.2 billion mentally ill people... ? Amazing. You know it like the drill squad where the parens were watching the soldiers drill and the mother looks at the father and say.. Look dad, our son is the only one doing it right. 2.2 billion agains how many "right, enlightened, brilliant and wise" atheists?

  • navashnie.nair - 2012-12-18 15:45

    @ just a girl, athetist, ok... ive tried... dont say i didnt alert you. i feel so disappointed that you will not even try my exercise (JESUS, reveal yourself to me, in a way only you can) :-). Be blessed and may you experience my GOD.

      carmen.erlebach - 2012-12-18 16:25

      Do I have to lie in bed for your exercise to work? Or will it work if I do it right now at my desk? I'm guessing not, because I tried it and (Shock! Horror!) nothing happened.

      adele.kendall.16 - 2012-12-18 16:50

      Navashnie, I have tried your exercise in earnest before in my youth when I still believed in the boogie man. Never worked, never experienced a miracle, never heard God speak to me, never been presented with a shred of evidence, never been helped, cured or had any of prayers answered. To satisfy you, I just asked God now to reveal himself to me... nothing, nadda. Where is he Navashnie?

  • eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 16:09

    How does love your neighbour as yourself prevent you from having an orgy? It actually seems to support orgies if you and your neighbours love each other! Let's say two married couples who are neighbours had an orgy together. Love your neighbour as yourself does not rule this out! But now note, such orgies would violate the Old Testament laws concerning adultery. According to Jesus, not only would such an orgy be ruled out, but these people participating in such activities would have to yank their eyes out and so forth, if they even thought about it. So according to Jesus, believers are not free from the law, they are still under "judgement" by the law, and Jesus said they need to be "perfect" as their father in heaven is perfect. i.e, This means they cannot sin, repent, sin, repent, and repeat when necessary. Jesus' supposed sacrifice was a one time omnly deal, and Hebrews 10:26-27 confirms this when it states that if believers sin "willfuly" after having the "laws written on their hearts" there is no more sacrifice for sins,only the burning fires of hell. No repentance. Paul, however, was literally saying that the laws no longer apply. This led to debauchery, orgies, and general chaos. This is also why Christians do not follow the majority of the 613 laws or the teachings of the prophets.

      hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-19 13:34

      Eddy. I can just shake my head. You are taking a Godly love, one that will give his own Son's life for you who is blaspheming against Him right now. Never compare human emotions with the love that God has even for you. Maybe that's the problem with Atheist, the compare their own crappy fail-able emotions with what they think God should have So failure all around

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-19 22:30

      @smurwe. Good comment, blame the system for your own inadequacies. As with most systems, the system is good but not infallible if there are people with alterior motives within that system and especially if they collude.

  • nkosinathi.nhlangulela - 2012-12-18 16:33

    Marry Christmas

      paulus.deboer.3 - 2012-12-18 20:34

      Can't.. I am married already.

      hydronamix.airtowater - 2012-12-19 13:44

      Paulus..... hahahaaa Skerp ..minora skerp..

      clive.pops.5 - 2012-12-19 14:18

      Paulus, that was nasty but also legend... :)

  • richard.jooste.142 - 2012-12-18 16:48

    Atheitis, my man/woman, you are a beaut! Touche! I must congratulate you on your responses and thank you for a good chuckle ! Have you burst any blood vessels yet ? You guys really can give it a rev ! You are a lucky guy to have so much time to waste. What's your secret ?

      derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 20:18

      Hey, atheitis, if a Christian God or Gods existed, he or she would have burst a blood vessel or two in His/Her or Their heads by now. He/She/They seem to be to incompetent to do anything; they can't even defend themselves, but leave it to people who don't even know what logic is to try to do it!

  • richard.jooste.142 - 2012-12-18 17:19

    Eddy-deep, being good or bad makes no difference to salvation . However, abiding by God's wishes to lead a good life does lead to sanctification. A true Christian does believe in living a good life but for the right reason, namely, to glorify God and to show his/her gratitude for his/her God-given faith. "Faith without works is dead ".

      eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 18:20

      You mean Bible sanctification. Have you read how holy and just Yahweh is? When people put God’s name on Bronze Age documents, and then make those documents a golden calf, they get stuck with Bronze Age moral thinking. Maybe it’s time to take the Bible down off of its pedestal, and acknowledge the obvious human handprints on the sacred texts.

      eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 18:20

      Cursing Parents For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. Leviticus 20:9 Working on the Sabbath Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15 Premarital Sex (girls only) . . .If, however, this charge is true, that evidence of the young woman's virginity was not found, then they shall bring the young woman out to the entrance of her father's house and the men of her town shall stone her to death, Deuteronomy 22:20 Disobedience (boys only) If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. Deuteronomy 21:18

      eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 18:20

      Worshipping any god but Yahweh If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that . . . hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; . . .Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5 Witches Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22: 18 Wizards (epileptics? migraine sufferers? schizophrenics?) A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27 Loose Daughters of Clergy And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. Leviticus 21:9

      eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 18:21

      Girls who are Raped within the City Limits If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city . . . But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. Deuteronomy 22:23-25 Blasphemers And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death. Leviticus 24:16 Anyone Who Tries to Deconvert Yahweh Worshipers If anyone secretly entices you--even if it is your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend--saying, "Let us go worship other gods," . . . you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them. Deuteronomy 12:6 Men who Lie With Men If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13

      eddy.deepfield - 2012-12-18 18:21

      Adulterers And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20: 10-12

  • MoshKaDeph - 2012-12-18 18:55

    Who cares?

  • derek.meyer.5680 - 2012-12-18 20:41

    @steward.debruin: "For non-believers, you guys are obsessed! I don't believe in Santa. You won't find me trolling Christmas sites all day looking for arguments." News24 is not a Christmas site. It's a news site. @steward.debruin: " If you don't believe, be happy. Live your lives. By arguing so much it merely indicates you don't have courage in your convictions. " Really? It's because people similar to Santa believers have been and are still trying to rule our lives by legislation that we try to stop them forcing their ridiculous beliefs down our throats and the throats of our children. People need to grow up and start realising that Santa doesn't exist. Adults believing in Santa and forcing their beliefs on humanity are detrimental to the advancement of knowledge.

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-19 08:25

      How about slandering Islam on a Islamic website.Do you have the "balls" to do so? C'mon be a sport!

  • Clerance Lephaka - 2012-12-18 20:49

    Its because da lord is my sherpard,jesus is life.

  • Noel Skhona Nkomo - 2012-12-18 22:02

    Am a Christian

  • mbambo.shi - 2012-12-19 06:23

    I wonder our world is such a MESS.

  • jerzy.wlodarczyk.37 - 2012-12-19 06:50

    Does anyone wonder why there is so much killing taking place in the world? Take a look at the Crusades called for by the Pope in 1095, at the Jesuits tasked by a Pope in 1540 with destruction of Reformation, the Concordant of 1933 (Catholic Church-Nazi connection) & Pope's blessing of Mussolini in relation to the WW 2 where the Trinitarians butchered their brothers by millions. I am sure you can add to this list?

  • andrew.mostert.50 - 2012-12-19 07:48

    How do Jews even get mentioned at 0.2%?

      berry.goodman - 2012-12-19 08:03

      Even the Mormons have more followers at almost 15 milion. Maybe one of them should comment in this forum as they do not believe in the normal Christian way of understanding and is therfore seen as a sect. They do give better answers and attract a lot of past atheists.

  • mike.olwagen - 2012-12-19 08:22

    Here's a challenge to Atheist, M Bossenger and D Meyer. Please continue your slandering and bashing of the Christian faith as you did in all your posts yesterday and the day before with one slight change. Direct all your slandering and blasphemy to the Muslim and Jewish faith on an Islamic and Jewish web-sites of MY choice...after all if you can call it large on this forum you should have the confidence of calling it large on any forum for that matter. What do you think are you up to the challenge...do you rate yourself?

      mbossenger - 2012-12-19 09:54

      Does this mean you've admitted defeat?

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-19 09:57

      Ok I give up, their passion for atheism seems to have deserted them!

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-19 10:14

      "Bossie" are you in must I send you the web site url's so that you can get cracking or are you a follower, waiting for meyer and atheist as back up?

      mbossenger - 2012-12-19 10:35

      Mike, I really have no interest in your "challenge" - and I cannot fathom what you are trying to prove. I go to many web sites and am completely open about my religious leanings. You seem to think I attack only christianity, but it just so happened that this article was (mostly) about christianity. I've made my feelings on religion clear here already. No doubt that makes me a "chicken" in your eyes, so be it.

      emma.jay.1466 - 2012-12-19 12:28

      They both Chicken Mike.

      phae.rayden - 2012-12-20 08:27

      Here's a challenge for you mike.olwagen, why don't you go to same said sites and sell your particular brand of religious crazy to them and see what happens. Its your duty as a Christian to spread the gospel, what are you and emma waiting for?

  • Stu.Hellfire - 2012-12-19 08:29

    Popular sure doesn't mean right.

  • gus.fernandes.7 - 2012-12-19 09:10

    "Look" to the spirit, man. Its something one feels and NOT see !

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-19 09:49

      Exactly, the atheist cannot wonder in the realms of the abstract! It wants hard evidence....and that when the evidence stares them boldy in the face, everywhere they look, everywhere they go, in everything they do, every single minute of their existence. Must be quite disconcerting suffering from the worst case of "tunnel vision" known, untreatable by known medical science.

      mbossenger - 2012-12-19 09:55

      Is that the same evidence that proves the tokoloshe exists?

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-19 10:09

      @ mbossenger - You haven't responded to my challenge! oh and have you spoken to the African people or must the Christian do all the research for the "lazy" uncommitted atheist.

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-19 10:49

      "bossie" - Thank you for admitting to your "inferiority" complex. Open your eyes and commit to something it doesnt' have to be Christianty but at least something of more substance than a belief in a doctrine the encourages a self inflicted incarceration into a "silo of denial". Wake up boet! life is there to be enjoyed even more so if you have a anchor or a safe haven, and yes you will falter and error on the way but at least you have SOMEONE to beg forgiveness for, from your wrong doings. ATHEISM = NOTHING. Was nice hearing how you people reason and think, makes me more sure of my own case, a reality check if you like.

      mbossenger - 2012-12-19 11:04

      "Thank you for admitting to your "inferiority" complex." - I don't recall admitting any such thing, could you be more specific? "Open your eyes and commit to something it doesnt' have to be Christianty but at least something of more substance than a belief in a doctrine the encourages a self inflicted incarceration into a "silo of denial"." - I suspect you have no idea about what atheism is if you make comments like this. I also suspect you don't realise that by your own doctrine you have no free will are essentially a god puppet, but if you're happy with that, fine by me. "Wake up boet!" - I did - 15 years ago, when I realised I had been living a lie. "life is there to be enjoyed even more so if you have a anchor or a safe haven," - so your false belief gives you hope, good for you. I prefer reality. I am responsible for my life and accept my actions have consequences. I find no security in a false safe haven. "and yes you will falter and error on the way but at least you have SOMEONE to beg forgiveness for," - the loving god who punishes people for eternity? No thank you. "ATHEISM = NOTHING." - This makes no sense, could you be more specific? "Was nice hearing how you people reason and think, makes me more sure of my own case, a reality check if you like." - Should I laugh at the irony of you talking about reality checks?

      mike.olwagen - 2012-12-19 12:08

      @ bossie. ATEISM = NOTHING. It has nothing (no doctrine) to offer except to bash religions (in particualr christianty as christians are the most tolerant of religious groups - you remember you are too damn scared to post your comments on an Islamic website - you know what can happen. remember the journalist in Norway?). Perhaps you can become a more innovative atheist an tell met what is your doctrine, what do you believe in, except nothing?

      mbossenger - 2012-12-19 12:27

      "ATEISM = NOTHING. It has nothing (no doctrine) to offer except to bash religions" - Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. It has nothing to do with bashing religion. I chose to criticise your religion and I'm sorry you need an ancient book to tell you how to live your life. "(in particualr christianty as christians are the most tolerant of religious groups" - I've noticed how tolerant you've been on this thread...../sarcasm "you remember you are too damn scared to post your comments on an Islamic website - you know what can happen. remember the journalist in Norway?)." - That fact that I wasn't interested in your "challenge" means nothing. I've told you this before but I'm sure you will keep on about it. "Perhaps you can become a more innovative atheist an tell met what is your doctrine, what do you believe in, except nothing?" - the point is there is no common "doctrine" among atheists - why is this such an issue for you? I've defined atheism above - a lack of belief in gods. I don't "believe", I examine based on available evidence. Now, do you want to explain according to your doctrine how god punishes people for eternity?

  • navashnie.nair - 2012-12-19 09:22

    @ just a girl.... i am so happy that you have tried and from what you have just said, i can understand your thoughts.... i have prayed for you and athetist this morning and because you have asked, i promise GOD is going to reveal himself to you... just have a little faith. Once u experience it , ur life will never be the same again.

  • sithombe.mkhize - 2012-12-19 09:23

    if you start debating , wasting your energy in the issues of religion it means you have a problem.