Islam prejudice rampant in school books

2011-09-15 22:28

Berlin - European school books present a distorted image of Islam and Muslims, using stereotypes that breed mistrust of the faith and its people, a five-country study published on Thursday showed.

This slanted view reflects "cultural racism", concluded Germany's Georg Eckert Institute for textbook research, which analysed 27 volumes used in classrooms in Britain, France, Austria, Spain and Germany.

The report, which was presented at the foreign ministry in Berlin, was billed as the first of its kind in Europe.

"Islam is always presented as an outdated system of rules which has not changed since its golden age," Susan Krohnert-Othman, the institute's project director, told reporters.

The researchers concluded that Islam is frequently presented as a homogenous entity without reflecting its diversity in different parts of the world. The report did not find major differences between the five countries studied.

The textbooks used at the secondary school level frequently set an "antiquated Islam" against a "modern Europe" and depict them as in conflict with each other.

Krohnert-Othman said that such representations "cannot challenge populist Islamophobia" among pupils.

"Even modern European school books include oversimplified presentations of Islam and they stand in the way of a credible intercultural dialogue with the Muslim world," said Germany's minister of state for European affairs at the foreign ministry, Cornelia Pieper, after reading the study's findings.

The researchers called on schools to present information on reforms advocated by Muslim clerics and intellectuals as well as the modernisation process within the religion.

And they said instruction on cultural diversity needed a major overhaul.

"Muslims must no longer be classified as a separate group consisting of non-European immigrants whose traditions prevent integration," the researchers concluded.

  • Adam - 2011-09-15 23:13

    The Western imperialism continues.

      Arno Young - 2011-09-15 23:59

      Yes I agree, they've got a lot to learn from the text books provided by Hamas.

      Wes - 2011-09-16 09:00

      What is western imperialism? Can someone please explain themselves?

      Ali Akbar - 2011-09-16 10:48

      The shocking video Muslims don't want you to see!!

      Gina - 2011-09-16 12:46

      Yes, why are these books given to school children, why are they not being taught about the muslim faith, the Jewish, the christian and all the rest in this world of ours. One of my grand children attends a Jewish Pre Primary, which we find is very good, so we are teaching her about, the muslim faith, all the different states of the christian world like the catholic faith which we attend also the faiths of India. Our young children have to learn to respect these faiths so that when it arises they can join in with all the celebrations of these faiths.Its strange that Germany has allowed this to happen, they have so tried to stay out of the conflicts of the Muslim and Jew because of their history.

  • Dirge - 2011-09-16 06:41

    I dont really see the problem here. All religions should be taught as " an outdated system of rules which has not changed since its golden age ". All religions are set against the modern world and the two just cannot exist together.

      errol.wagner - 2011-09-16 19:49

      And which religion are you? Atheist? Well, do you know that is also a religion.

      Ross - 2011-09-16 20:51

      errol - You are incorrect.

      Kaos - 2011-09-17 16:44

      @Errol, Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour

  • daaivark - 2011-09-16 07:15

    Your pants are dirty. No yours are dirty. No yours are.... round and around the mulberry bush. Just wash the things!

      pop101 - 2011-09-16 08:33

      Daaivark, not really attacking you, but you never contribute anything. You are like a little irritating "bokkie-" hondjie that barks his ass off, but as soon as you say "WA!!!", he pees on the carpet.

      Ridah Booley - 2011-09-16 08:34

      SPOT ON!!! and if you noticed, its the FEW bastardized APPLES that tries to infect the rest. REALLY NOW?!?!? instead of trying to bridge gaps, they create em...

      VELOCITY - 2011-09-16 10:18

      Irritating ahole

      soofie habib - 2011-09-16 14:07

      daaivark (that pig), is more like a stoepkakertjie! never got any contribution worth noticing

  • daaivark - 2011-09-16 07:17

    Not only is this not news, it is grossly irresponsible writing. This piece can serve absolutely no useful purpose and can only promote religious intolerance. I mean, just look at the nasties crawling out of their hell-holes.

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 07:37

      "just look at the nasties crawling out of their hell-holes. " Yeah, like you, sitting on the fence, never really debating, just trying to be police everyone. Why don't you take a hike?

      Lanfear - 2011-09-16 07:40

      Promote religious intolerance? Between the three Abrahamic religions? LOL! No need to promote it, its already there, its been there for ages, and its boiling worse than ever. "Onwards christian soldiers, rabbies, hindu priests; onwards sons of islam, fight till you're all deceased!"

      daaivark - 2011-09-16 07:54

      I enjoy asking questions. Something more poeple should do. In doing so, my own view is often apparent. What on earth is wrong with that? Or would it be better if I just mouthed off a lot of inane, unreasoned bile like so many? So get lost, Ateis.

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 08:05

      You don't ever take a stand, but just revert back to some weak moderate middle-ground. Other than that you feel as though you have the right to police these forums. "I enjoy asking questions." Is that so? And what does it have to do with you having such a massive ego that you feel entitled to police others?

      daaivark - 2011-09-16 09:45

      Ag Ateis, Does it occur to you that often both "sides" are guilty of dogmatic idiocy, and that urging reason may be productive. Ja, sure I have an ego, but the very fact that you are talking about this suggests that you do too. It is a human condition. If both opinions are flawed, why should one choose one. Ag, why bother.

      Monacoroyals - 2011-09-16 18:31

      i agree... f off Vark

  • Siener2 - 2011-09-16 08:12

    "The textbooks used at the secondary school level frequently set an "antiquated Islam" against a "modern Europe" and depict them as in conflict with each other." Yip, that would be 100% accurate. Has anybody bothered to take a critical look at the text books and sermons on the Muslim side of this discussion?

  • BuffaloRider - 2011-09-16 09:13

    Anyone advocating teaching a specific religion or religious values in schools are nothing more than blasphemers....One's relationship with God, Allah, Jehovah, Krisna etc. is between themselves and their deity....don't impose your sense of morality on me or my children...We can figure it out on our own. Rather give us the tools to reason, debate,learn and question...then we can seek our own path to heaven.

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 09:21

      There we definitely agree Politics aren't enforced at school level - so why should religion be?

      pop101 - 2011-09-16 09:26

      Agree, and that is why you used to get schools based on Christian principles, Muslim principles etc. etc. (determined by school governing body). If you don't want your children to be exposed to these ideas, well then you are free to remove them from the school and place them in another. In fact, children are allowed nowadays to leave class should they not wish to stay and listen to religious teachings.

      BuffaloRider - 2011-09-16 09:37

      @zubair.bhamjee...I agree, prejudice has no place in schools or school books. Ever notice how children of all colours, faiths, and backgrounds can learn to play together, and be friends etc. Why is it as adults we wish to pervert this understanding and acceptance with so called dogma which is the religious word basically corrupted by man for usually his own pursuits...namely power and greed. Ideally one should be able to attend a church, mosque, temple, synagogue anywhere in the world without fear of being attacked, ridiculed, harrassed or persecuted. When this is a fact in all countries, then and only then will we truly understand the true meaning of religion and its values. To those who believe that thiers is the " proper path among the righteous" ...are you in for a big surprise when you shuffle off this mortal coil.

      GrimReaper1 - 2011-09-16 10:18

      no one is imposing anything on u or your children,if u happy to walk in the dark your whole life,u reserving your place in hell and that is the consequence....

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 10:20


      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 10:25

      Religious doctrine does have a place in the classroom - but in the history class, where pupils can learn about it the same way as Facism, Nazism, Communism etc and be aware of its dangers.

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 10:41

      GrimReaper1. You clearly are the weakest link! @zubair: Satanic? Satan is also a myth!

  • 2WhiteStars - 2011-09-16 09:37

    Muslim immigration - not a good idea.

      hafezhamza - 2011-09-24 21:36

      white immigration in africa, not a good idea

  • whykay - 2011-09-16 09:56

    All these hateful, misinformed comments. Have any of you actually studied or even read any of the books of the religions you're slandering other than your own? Every religion, or lack thereof, thinks they're right, none promote violence, and each teaches respect. Respect is what this world needs more of. The world's always going to have crazies, from the suicide bombers, to norwegian Breivik's, to politicians. Religious beliefs have little, if anything, to justify their actions. They themselves, like a lot here, are misinformed. Go learn a little before shooting your mouth off.

      Arno Young - 2011-09-16 10:07

      @whykay. Christianity does not advocate violence. I.e turn the other cheek, and as exemplified by Jesus. Brevik's actions are not in line with Christianity's teachings. Suicide bombers are instructed by the Koran, that dying in the cause of Allah, will ensure salvation, and those acts of war will not be forgotten. This is current Muslim teaching (not by all, but a lot none-the-less).

      Memo-H - 2011-09-16 10:36

      @ Arno Young, where did you study islam that you know what the Quraan instructs ?? Go study Christianity boet cause the only major difference between islam and Christianity is that you guys beleive Jeseus is the son of God or God himself and where as in Islam we beleive he is a prophet.

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 10:37

      What a load of bull. In the history of dangerous ideas, religion and its absolutism and fatalistic mentality is probably the worst. Even if your religion doesn't preach violence(in your eyes) the mentality that comes with - the absolute belief in an unprovable divine supervisor and whatever he tells you - is far worse. And if you think that the Abrahamic and monotheistic religions does not preach violence you are wrong. Reformism and humanism has luckily nullified most of that, but a lot still remains.

      whykay - 2011-09-16 10:47

      @Arno... have you read the Quran? Or is this something picked up on through media? Anything taken out of context can be distorted into something completely opposite to what it's intended. The Quran also teaches forgiveness and turning the other cheek, which is also rewarded. Suicide bombings are not in line with Islamic teachings. Ask the general populace of muslims, and none will condone it. Every religion, culture, sect, race have their far right movements and are not considered the norm. Take our own country, majority Christians? Yet can the atrocities against race during the apartheid regime be put down to religion? Is Christianity blamed for apartheid? Yes you're looking at racial divide here, but if you're a Christian, does your religion not teach you to respect all and that all are equal? People will always do and say what they need to advance their own personal agendas. From media propaganda to creating "facts" to quoting out of context. As has been said before in these comments, that's down to power and greed. Greed, in all religions is considered a sin. Open your minds and take a few minutes to look beyond what you read in media.

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 10:49

      @whykay Some have - most not. I have tried to educate myself as well as possible about it. "none promote violence, and each teaches respect" Now you are talking nonsense and you know it. How can you say that? How much respect does christanity teach when it condemns gays, disobedient children, people who work on the sabbath - and in general - any other religion? "Religious beliefs have little, if anything, to justify their actions." Go read on these forums when some muslims comment about 9/11 or martyrdom. You clearly have not made an effort. When you feel justified to 'kill the infidel' and virgins await you in heaven HOW can you tell me that is not about religion? When christians had the crusades - you telling me religion had nothing to do with it? Witch burnings? "Go learn a little before shooting your mouth off. " Practice what you preach. I suggest you start with history

      Arno Young - 2011-09-16 11:37

      I agree that there are fanatics everywhere, but the point is that Christianity does not teach violence. The Koran teaches violence. There is no Christian basis for the acts of Brevik. He acted wrong on all accounts. The Koran is the basis, and if you believe the hadiths, then its all together a whole new ball game. (Surah 9:29 Fight against those who believe not in Allah). (Surah 9:5 Kill the unbelievers..) (Surah 8,67 & 9:111) etc.etc. Whereas the Koran also teaches, turn the other cheek, the followers can choose to follow the violent texts as the situation dictates. In Christianity, that luxury does not exist. There is no basis for racism in Christianity and is clearly wrong. I hear you saying fanaticism exist everywhere; but I do not hear you condemning it.

      Memo-H - 2011-09-16 11:59

      @ Arno. you procalim to know alot of what the Quraan teaches, Did you study Islam ??

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 14:44

      whykay? WHYKAY? After the sermon you gave us I'd expect you to at least come and try to debate?

      Zee - 2011-09-16 15:24

      @Arno Young: Easy to quote things out of context! Let's look at the Bible with one eye as you've looked at the Quran: "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

      Oldbuck - 2011-09-17 19:52

      how many people have died in this world because of religous beliefs? the answer to this should sort out everyones arguements

  • Yusuf - 2011-09-16 10:27

    Muslims in South Africa have abetter understanding of Christianity as were taught it when we stepped into school.Whites not having schooled or lived amongst have slanted views of us and others have false notions of us. GET TO KNOW US FIRST?

      Oldbuck - 2011-09-17 19:54

      whites dont have suicide bombers,we also dont get virgins,camels and the odd goat when we pass on

  • Romans8 - 2011-09-16 10:27

    The only way and name that should be taught in any school is the name of JESUS and the Christian way!!

      Cyberfriend - 2011-09-16 10:46

      Do you know Paul in the Bible was a bounty hunter that brought the christians to the romans to be executed,on this mans word you base your believes and want it to be taught to children?See ny comment earlier Jesus Peace be Upon Him never said that he was GOD.

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 11:01

      Yet another religious zealot Keep your religion to yourself and out of public schools!

      Romans8 - 2011-09-16 11:12

      @Cyberfriend - Do you know that Saul who was Paul was blinded by the Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus and converted at that point from Judaism to Christianity and a believer in Jesus. See Acts Ch.9. Did you know that Jesus said "....he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" John 14:9. Did you know that it also says " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." (Joh 1:1-2) And then it says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us in Vs14. So if the Word was God and the Word then became flesh, we can acknowledge that He was and is God. I rest my case.

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 11:17

      Romans8 Any proof that these events happened other than a poorly written story book full of bronze age myths and a badly constructed plot?

      Romans8 - 2011-09-16 11:20

      @Ateis - another hopeless athiest. Go get a life! If the true and living God had not been taken out of the school system, we would categorically not have all the problems that we have in the world today, that is led by people like yourself and the leftist liberals of the world.

      daaivark - 2011-09-16 11:21

      On this we agree, Ateis.

      GrimReaper1 - 2011-09-16 11:38

      why pray to a prophet, Jesus when you can pray directly to god Allah ???

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 11:41

      I knew it! All the problems in the world is because of the damn atheists!! Lets BURN em'!!!! YEAH!!

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 11:43

      Romans8: You are wrong, I was in a christian school in the old SA under the theocracy of the dutch reformed church! What led to me being an atheist was THINKING, reading the bible, realizing how horrible and evil the book really is! Still waiting for your proof that your god exists?

      Romans8 - 2011-09-16 11:51

      @Ateis - I live by faith, not by sight, although I have had wonderful miracles happen in my life and have seen the hand of God move!

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 11:55

      @Romans8, did you take a picture perhaps?

      Messenger - 2011-09-16 12:05

      Ateis "realizing how horrible and evil the book really is" Yeah, to your atheist mind it is. Atheists are incapable of understanding what the Bible really is trying to tell us, because they are spiritually dead. Have you ever studied the Bible's impressive accuracy in predicting the future? If you want proof of God's existence and the divine origins of the Bible, do yourself the favour and study fulfilled Bible prophecy. I can give you a few examples to get started.

      Cyberfriend - 2011-09-16 12:16

      @roman,“I confronted my husband with my questions about Christian beliefs. He had no answers. I also asked my Christian friends. They did give me some answers, but their answers were so preposterous that I soon gave up asking them! Want to know what they told me? Frankly, I'm just dying to tell you about it! This is what they had to say: "No evil or sin can stand before a Perfect God. Even what to us is just the tiniest of wrong is totally intolerable to His perfection. All it takes is one sinful act. Look at Adam and Eve. They committed only one act, and a very small one at that, but that act allowed sin to enter this world. They knew that the consequences of that one act was death, but God made a promise to them that there was a way they could be redeemed from those consequences. It is that promise that the prophets wrote about. It is that promise and its fulfilment that is the underlining theme throughout the rest of the Bible. The message is that not only were the Jewish leaders who crucified Christ evil, but so were David, Lot and the others. That also includes you and me. Even the smallest evil makes us deserving of death. Just as there was nothing Adam and Eve could to do undo what they had done, there is nothing we can do to undo the evil we have done. But the same promise God made to Adam and Eve He makes to us. He only asks us to accept that promise."

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 12:17

      @Romans: Any proof other than your claims that you saw miracles? @Messenger Spiritually dead... that's a new one! Seeing as a I was a christian for a major part of my life your statement does not make sense. Accurate predictions, I've heard this one before. Let me guess - the birth of the benevolent zombie?

      Cyberfriend - 2011-09-16 12:20

      How could anyone believe in such a theory!? But that is precisely what my good Christian "friends" believed. According to them, all evil, all sin is the same in the eyes of God. So the penalty for a man who steals a loaf of bread is the same as the penalty for a man who goes out and murders ten people! What kind of justice is that?! I'm thankful the law and order system in America does not treat all crime with the death penalty! Is justice here on earth better than God's justice? And what utter rubbish to even think that we are all deserving of death for the small sins that we commit and that we can be saved simply by believing that God died for our sins!! Whether we believe or we don't believe, it still doesn't save us from Death, does it?!

      Messenger - 2011-09-16 12:33

      Ateis, there are plenty. Are you interested in history and archaeology?

      daaivark - 2011-09-16 12:53

      How wonderful for you, Romans. Just a pity that no-one else is aware of those "wonderful miracles". I would love to know how one spots a miracle. Must be a very reassuring skill.

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 13:50

      Messenger No need to nitpick, just name the prophecies that are real prophecies, not mere coincidences

      Messenger - 2011-09-16 14:13

      Ateis, to name a few: * The city of Edom would be overthrown and never be inhabited again. Ezek 35:1-8. Edom is now known as Petra in Jordan, and is a wasteland. * Jews would be gathered from across the globe to Israel. Ezek 37:11. The Zionist movement beginning in the late 18th century brought the gradual emigration of Jews to Israel from around the globe. * Israel would become a nation in one day and an immediate war would follow as a result. Isaiah 66:6-24. May 14, 1948 Israel became a nation after a British mandate expired and the United Nations acknowledged their sovereignty. On the same day, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria attacked Israel and quickly got their collective asses handed to them. * Israel and Jerusalem would be a burden to all the nations in the last days. Zech 12:2 Every modern nation since 1948 has worried itself with "peace in the Middle East" * Babylon would rule over the Jews for 70 years exactly. Jer 25:11,12. In 609 BC Babylon conquered the Assyrians, controlling their land, destroyed Jerusalem and the temple and took the Jews as slaves. In 539 BC, Cyrus conquered Babylon and freed the Jewish slaves. * Tyre's fortresses would fall, the city would be destroyed and its rubble cast into the sea. Ezek 26:12; Amos 1:9-10. Alexander the great attacked Tyre in 333 BC. They took rock, timbre and dirt from the mainland and built a causeway over to the island where they used battering rams to break down the walls.

      Messenger - 2011-09-16 14:14

      * Nineveh would be attacked and destroyed by fire, never to be rebuilt. Nahum 3. Around 612 BC, the Babylonians, Scythians and Medes conquered Nineveh, one of the most powerful cities of the ancient world. Archeologists uncovered the ruins in the 1800s and found a layer of ash over the city. Cyrus King of Persia (Isaiah 44:28-45:1). Since Isaiah lived between about 740 and 690 BC and Cyrus did not make his proclamation for Israel to return from exile until about 536 (Ezra 1), there would have been no human way for him to know what Cyrus would be named or what Cyrus would do. The Closing of the Golden Gate (Ezekiel 44:2-3). The Golden Gate is the eastern gate of Jerusalem, through which Christ made his triumphal entry on Palm Sunday before the crucifixion (Matthew 21). Ezekiel predicted its closing and in 1543 Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent closed the gate and walled it up, not knowing he was fulfilling prophecy. It remains sealed to this day exactly as the Bible predicted. Destruction of Jerusalem (Mark 13:1-2). Fulfilled literally when the Romans completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple buildings. According to historian and eyewitness Josephus, some of the stones were 37 feet long, 12 feet high and 18 feet wide. Stones were even pried apart to collect the gold leaf that melted from the roof when the temple was set on fire.

      daaivark - 2011-09-16 14:24

      Messenger: How can you even think that quoting the myths on which your religion is based is acceptable proof of the validity of that religion?

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 14:39

      Messenger Is there concrete proof that the prophecy was written before the event occurred? Or did they augment the texts to make the prophecy "come true" - like many speculated the gospel writers did to the jesus prophecy (and also accounts for the fact that the 4 gospels were "cherry picked" because they fit the best)

      Messenger - 2011-09-16 15:02

      Daaivark, I'm not trying to proof the validity of the religion. I'm just saying that the Bible is trustable, given the number of the events that were predicted accurately by the Bible. Ateis, probably not in all cases. However, if one takes the Isaiah scroll (part of the Dead Sea scrolls) as an example, it proves that no changes have been made to the book of Isaiah other than minor errors made by translators. Those errors did not change the meaning of the text.

      Romans8 - 2011-09-16 20:47

      @Cyberfriend - I really think that you are extremely confused in your theology is warped. Despite the sensible explanations from various people here you continue to try and reason your point accross, without any success. Instead of trying to reason, I suggest you try and take God's Word as literal. I take it as black and white!

      Oldbuck - 2011-09-17 19:56

      @ grim reaper - only the jews have a direct line the rest of you have dial through an exchange

      hafezhamza - 2011-09-24 21:34

      do u know when jesus peace be upon him was born.the gospel of matthews states he was born during the reign of king herod who died in about 4b.c.e(Matthew 2:1) BUT the gospel of luke indicates that he was born during a census when Quirenius was governor of syria during 6-7 CE. THIS IS A DIFFERENCE OF TEN u telling me that jesus peace be upon him who according to you is the son of god(GOD FORBID),and the bible is the word of god, but god doesnt even know when his son was born?the bible is full of contradictions.unlike the Quran, 1400 years ago till now it is still in its original u go to brazil or canada malawi or vietnam norway or russia new zealand or kuwait everywhere muslims all read tha same Quran with not a single letter being changed.As muslims we also believe in jesus peace be upon him and in the original bible that was revealed to him.

  • Badballie - 2011-09-16 10:38

    "Islam is always presented as an outdated system of rules which has not changed since its golden age," - OK so Islam is in fact a religion who's laws control all aspects of life and do not differentiate between religious laws and laws of state, these laws have not changed in 3000 years two sentences both true? where is the misrepresentation. Western culture on the other hand actively and continually sells out its own countrymen in favor of low wage immigrants in order to increase profit potential for the upper class and business owner, Islam is an old and dependable religion, modern western religion is based on wealth as God and regularly sell out its people to increase the elite's income potential, Although everyone forgets that all religion shares a single common main thread, and is based on human understanding of an event so far beyond our ability to comprehend that we have no point of reference to align it to, in short religion and God (who ever your God may be) have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Mankind cannot survive religion.

  • jonnybravo - 2011-09-16 10:46

    peoples lack of understaning and their igonorance on this forum is shocking. DO NOT comment unless you have actually taken the time to research the drivel coming out of your mouth. Using the logic evident on this forum I conclude the following : christian guy got sent to jail for raping a four year old, so all Christians are rapists of four year old. Jewish lady stole money from her employer, so all Jews are now thieves. Can you see the sheer idiocy involved in coming to your conclusions. Let me leave you with these quotes : "Jim Jones, David Koresh and Meir Kahane do not typify Christianity and Judaism in the eyes of the civilized West, but those same eyes are prone to see Osama bin Laden and Mullah Muhammad Omar as typifying Islam," Richard Bulliet. "It may be that Allah will bring about love between you and those of them with whom you are now at enmity... Allah forbids you not respecting those who have not fought against you on account of your religion, and who have not driven you out from your homes, that you be kind to them and deal equitably with them; surely, Allah loves those who are equitable." - Holy Qur'an, 60:8-9 "the taking of one innocent life is like taking all of Mankind... and the saving of one life is like saving all of Mankind" - Holy Qur'an, 5:33. Can you now see how fundamentally flawed your argument is. Better to be quiet and think you are a fool, than for you to open your mouth and prove it to everybody!

      Lee - 2011-09-16 11:40

      OK you can stop lying now

  • Luapolku - 2011-09-16 10:46

    We muslims will never embrace western culture because we will never allow our husbands to become alcoholics, wifes sluts, sons drug addicts and daughters walking the streets naked, and as a nation we will never allow the invasion rape murder and torture of innocent men,woman and children.

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 11:02

      Well done Luapolku, you paid attention when you were brainwashed by your religion!

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 11:22

      Oh yeah, suppression of people, their spirit and intellect has worked really well in the history of mankind. Breaking someones spirit is one way of keeping them in check, I admit. But so is torture.

      Lee - 2011-09-16 11:36

      Actually I personally know hundreds of Arabs, North Africans, Persians, Turks, Indians and others from that part of the world who do embrace western culture because they are intelligent enough to see through obvious lies like yours. Many of them are atheists too ;)

      Luapolku - 2011-09-16 11:37

      ateis but you are not brainwashed when you call muslims terrorists, yet when look in your own country there are over a million muslims in S.A. and not a single terror attack my muslims, you an open hypocrite

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 11:40

      Luapolku Where did I call muslims terrorists? You lie

      Luapolku - 2011-09-16 11:53

      @Lee, firstly you say you know many muslims then say many of them are atheists, are they muslims or atheists, exactly the point they are not true muslims, pobably born in muslim homes but exposed only to western culture and have no Islam in their lives, you cannot use them as an example, the propht Mohamed pbhh said, "He who imatates a nation is one of them"

      Lee - 2011-09-16 12:07

      "Actually I personally know hundreds of Arabs, North Africans, Persians, Turks, Indians and others from that part of the world" Does not say Muslims. It is a comment on the geographic population. However there are plenty Western Muslims who are moderate and embrace Western culture. I know some of them too "pobably born in muslim homes but exposed only to western culture and have no Islam in their lives" I'm referring to people from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, Lebanon, Libya, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. They do not fit your description above

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 12:20

      Luapolko: Where did I call muslims terrorists? Still waiting for that, seeing as you make such wild accusations Whenever someone will say they know a muslim that lost his faith you lot will say "he was not a true muslim" - how convenient

      Oldbuck - 2011-09-17 19:59

      are you speaking through a letter box

  • Cyberfriend - 2011-09-16 11:03

    @Roman,this is an extract of a lady that embraced Islam unfortunately could not copy the whole article “I was completely overwhelmed with amazement to learn some of the fantastic beliefs of modern Christians. The following is a list of beliefs which made absolutely no sense to me: 1. That Jesus is God. 2. That is Jesus is Lord and our Savior, who came down to earth in the form of man to die for our sins. 3. That God is three in one.......a concept called the Trinity. None of the above beliefs are supported by the Bible! Jesus never claimed to be God. He never said that he had come to die for our sins. And you can scour the Bible from cover to cover. You will not find the word Trinity in it!. Several questions arose in my mind about the above mentioned beliefs. Why would God personally need to come down to earth if He has all power? If He wants to get something done, all He needs to do is say the word and it is done! Jesus was a man. If he was God, then how could he die? Can God die? Furthermore, if Jesus was really God in the flesh, who did he pray to? Did he pray to himself?! If Jesus is God, how can we even think of God subjecting Himself to the temptation of the devil? How can the devil offer Jesus the kingdoms of the world, if everything in the heavens and earth all belong to God? Besides, wasn't it God who created the devil?! If the Trinity is indeed an important article of faith, why does not Jesus preach this trinity?”

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 11:08

      Again? Really??

      Romans8 - 2011-09-16 11:22

      Why would I want to listen to a lady, wasn't Eve deceived by the serpent first?

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 11:41

      Romans8 Keep on going, true colours are coming through

      Messenger - 2011-09-16 11:53

      Cyberfriend, see my comment higher up. If you are looking for more answers, I recommend the following article. It’s lengthy, but worth the read. I’m sure you will find quite a few answers in there. I dare you to read the whole article before you debate with us again. I also recommend the following website:

      Zee - 2011-09-16 15:36

      @Messenger: I highly recommend Yay! Let's all quote random URL's off the net!

      Messenger - 2011-09-16 16:27

      Zee, I have seen that site before. I actually don't mind studying it, when I have the time. I take the statements they make with a pinch of salt though, seeing that it's an atheist site. :-) I do respect people's different views. I believe that no religion is exempt from scrutiny and debating or even challenging people from other beliefs should be encouraged.

  • Luapolku - 2011-09-16 11:03

      Luapolku - 2011-09-16 11:14

      Let see if you got the guts to read these links

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 11:19

      I did read it, it talks about some criminals doing some criminals deeds. Did you have a point to make?

      Luapolku - 2011-09-16 11:39

      exactly, but when muslims commit criminal deeds? the rest is history

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 13:28

      I still don't see your point really. Or perhaps you don't understand the difference between a single criminal act and acts of terrorism, jihads, forcing girls into underage marriages, female genital mutilation, stoning, pederasty, homophobia, and rejection of science and reason(thanks Mike)

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 14:47

      Antithesis Precisely! When done in the name of the holy invisible sky-god all those evil acts become acceptable. One of the biggest problems with religion

  • ManBoobs - 2011-09-16 11:10

    @Ateis: Sorry, I see someone reported our debate as getting out of hand and the post was deleted. Would like to continue where we left off, but only caught a glance of it in the sidebar. What was your problem with what I said? Oh, and when I say some person reported the comment, I use the word person loosely.

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 11:17

      Please repost your comment. Must be some self-appointed holier-than-though post policeman (I do have someone in mind!)

      daaivark - 2011-09-16 11:22

      I don't do that sort of thing, if you happen to be referring to me. I generally stand by what I say, and don't go squealing. Don't be childish now, please.

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 11:48

      In that case I apologise daaivark I just wonder what anybody could've seen as "getting out of hand" - clearly manboobs (damn, what a nickname) wants to debate further and didn't have problem with it

      daaivark - 2011-09-16 12:56

      Thanks. I think we are actually in agreement on most things and I think our earlier exchange was rather unfortunate. Let's let that go, okay?

      daaivark - 2011-09-16 13:04

      In these religioous "debates" unfortunately, people have little sense of perspective. It is often forgotten that religion is based on belief, NOT on logic, so expecting the application of reason from ANY religious zealot, whether Muslim, Christian, whatever, is perhaps unrealistic. Unfortunately, however, many Christians (in particular) somehow feel the need to justify their beliefs in scientific terms, and that just is not possible. Rather just say, "I believe" and leave it at that. And of course, anyone is also free not to believe. It is our choice, and in my case, the threat of eternal damnation or the reward of some oasis in the sky simply don't work, as the notion of an afterlife is irrelevant if one does not accept the existence of deities. I see no need to embrace deities. Man has the ability to employ common sense (at least some do) and certain modes of behaviour are either useful in living an honest life considering the rights and shortcomings of all around us, or they are not. If they are not, then logic tells one that those modes should be avoided. Who needs some big stick or carrot to live a decent life?

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 13:47

      daaivark Agreed My own position regarding religion was always very moderate and tolerant - but the more I learn about religion the more I feel like Sam Harris about it

      daaivark - 2011-09-16 14:25

      Ateis: Olive branch then?

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 14:40

      daaivark No problem. Olive branch it is

      daaivark - 2011-09-16 14:50


  • barryjoelm - 2011-09-16 11:16

    No different to blatantly anti-semitic propaganda coming out of Muslim countries. Teaching three-year olds that Jews are the devil. As a level 7 atheist, I couldn't agree more with Dirge - "I dont really see the problem here. All religions should be taught as " an outdated system of rules which has not changed since its golden age ". All religions are set against the modern world and the two just cannot exist together." Well said!

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 11:20

      I have to ask - level 7? There are levels?

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 11:31

      Lol, yeah I agree with Ateis, please tell us about the levels of atheism. Is there a club now?

      daaivark - 2011-09-16 11:37

      Ja. That is truly hysterical. A hierarchy of atheists. Oh my. SO how does it work, is there some kind of arch-atheist, and is he/she a level 1 or a level 10?

      GrimReaper1 - 2011-09-16 11:43

      are these levels of stupidity,with level one being moderatley stupid and level seven being absolutely dumb

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 12:13

      GrimReaper1: Maybe learn to spell before you comment on others' intelligence

      Epicurius - 2011-09-18 00:35

      Regarding the 'levels' it is actually something discussed in Dawkins' God Delusion and is a scale ranging from complete theist (1 = 100% sure of God's existence) to complete atheist (7 = 100% sure God does not exist) and all the degrees in between. One thing it is not is a kind of ranking system (ie Grand Master Atheist etc) but merely a way of classifying the various degrees of theistic belief. I can see how simply announcing your 'level' can give such an impression though.

  • Cyberfriend - 2011-09-16 11:19

    @messenger,romans,anti thesis,“It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to understand that the Creator cannot become His creation, or part of His creation. Even if God could become His creation, why would He want to do that?!! And if it is true that God became Jesus and did indeed die for our sins (which sounds like a very drastic step to me), then the world as we know it today should be free of sin. If it is not free of sin, then what was the point in dying for our sins? What did it accomplish?! I was staring at first-class Falsehood. I knew it was false right to the very core. You will not find a single flaw in God's creation. It is perfect. It is God who has given us the power of reason and common sense. Would God ask us to believe in anything that didn't make sense? Truth must make sense. When a detective wants to find the truth, he looks for clues, examines the evidence and uses his power of reasoning. People employ this method for all matters, except in the field of religion! This is where they abandon their reason and believe blindly in whatever they are taught! I wondered how people could actually believe that Jesus died for their sins! I want to ask this question to you. If you were sitting for an important exam, would you believe anyone who said that you had to do absolutely nothing in order to pass that exam?! Would you believe anyone who said all you had to do was believe that your teacher himself would study for the exam and do all the hard work for you!”

      Messenger - 2011-09-16 11:54

      Cyberfriend, see my comment higher up. If you are looking for more answers, I recommend the following article. It’s lengthy, but worth the read. I’m sure you will find quite a few answers in there. I dare you to read the whole article before you debate with us again. I also recommend the following website:

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 12:14

      Cyberfriend, your post is a bit nonsensical and grammatically challenged, but I'll have a stab at it: "It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to understand that the Creator cannot become His creation, or part of His creation..." Your right, it takes zero intelligence actually. We are trying to argue a non-sequitur here (an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises) I simply deny your gods existence, so arguing semantics with you is irrelevant and a waste of time. A bit like arguing how many reindeers pulls Santa's sleigh.

      Cyberfriend - 2011-09-16 14:43

      @Messenger,“And what utter rubbish to even think that we are all deserving of death for the small sins that we commit and that we can be saved simply by believing that God died for our sins!! Whether we believe or we don't believe, it still doesn't save us from Death, does it?! If we commit a sin, it is not because of Adam and Eve! We commit a sin when we choose to do wrong or evil of our own free will. We alone are responsible for our actions. For the mistake I make, nobody else can be held accountable. That would simply not be justice! Therefore, even if somebody were to come up to me and say he or she was willing to take the burden of my sin, I would not agree to it! Since it is I who committed the sin, it is I alone who must face the consequences of that act! It just does not make sense that we should consciously make mistakes and commit sins and all kinds of crimes and put the whole burden on somebody who is totally innocent. There is no law and order system in this world where Tom commits a murder and instead of Tom, Dick is hanged for it!! If such a thing were to be done, this whole world would be upside down!”

      Messenger - 2011-09-16 15:24

      Cyberfriend, nobody said I can commit a sin and hold someone else accountable. I am still accountable for my own sins, but through Jesus, I can get forgiveness for my sins by repenting and turning away from sin. If I continue committing sin without repenting, I cannot expect to be saved. Jesus died so that we could be reconciled with God. Jesus died so that we can be forgiven when we repent and turn away from our sins. Did you seriously think Christians can just keep on sinning because Jesus died for us? Is that how you view Christians? We are not free to sin! Jesus said: "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." To be born again means to turn away from sin and toward God. What did Jesus say to the prostitute in John 8:11? "Go and sin no more." Jesus definitely did not say we are free to sin because He died for us.

  • Ateis - 2011-09-16 11:46

    The "tolerance" displayed here between the two sister religions islam and christianity proves my point on why religion needs to DIE, its 2011 and people are following teachings originating in the bronze age

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 11:56

      Lol, Ateis, for some reason your avatar only showed up now - ghost busters - classic!

      Ateis - 2011-09-16 12:15

      Yeah, except its jeebus-busters!

      AntiThesis - 2011-09-16 12:19

      Oh I see it, you have to zoooom in. Love it!

      GrimReaper1 - 2011-09-17 10:48

      religion will never die,but u will and if u have not seen the light by then and reverted back to Islam the hellfire awaits you

  • Mundu - 2011-09-16 16:15

    If it waks like a duck and smells like a is a duck!! Call the muslims what they are. I suggest that the books don't say enough about the dark evil that lurks here.

  • Monacoroyals - 2011-09-16 18:34

    stereotype? I dont think so... one makes the bed they sleep in. terrorise the world and the world will terrorise you

  • tailormade - 2011-09-17 16:26

    My question is this: Is Islam the only religion and/or cultural identity that's portrayed incorrectly? Unless children take religious/cultural studies on a full-time basis, it's almost impossible to teach them all the ins and outs of a specific religion. I mean, even in South Africa, it's only at University level that the theology students learn the full (and not even always) extent of Christian history. I think that Europe is trying to do some damage control. I think they are trying not to "upset" the Islam world, given everything that has happened over the last 15 years.

  • Durbsdude - 2011-09-18 08:07

    Aw shame the poor doodums. So what are they gonna do about it...bomb us?

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