News24

Jesus baptism site opens in West Bank

2011-07-12 20:43

Qasr el-Yahud - Israel has opened what some believe is the baptism site of Jesus to daily visits in a move that required the co-operation of Israel's military and the removal of nearby mines along the border with Jordan.

Some believe the West Bank site is where John the Baptist baptised Jesus in the waters of the Jordan River.

However, Jordan says a site on its side of the river is where the baptism took place.

The West Bank site has not been regularly open to the public since the 1967 war, when Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan.

Palestinian Tourism Minister Khouloud Daibes charges that Tuesday's opening of the site is "illegal." He calls it part of Israel's "occupation" and "monopoly" of Palestinian historical and tourist resources.

Comments
  • zaatheist - 2011-07-13 04:32

    Fantastic idea and opportunity. Line the suckers up and take their money. The scary thing I find about religion is that such huge numbers of unquestioning gullible people exist on this planet. They are victims of blatant fraud on a fantastically large scale. Yet they refuse to countenance any questioning of their 'faith' and are happy to remain willfully ignorant of the truth. Its is scary because these people kill and are killed in the name of their gods.

      Ace - 2011-07-13 07:59

      @zaatheist Hey atheist, not only us Christians pay money to get a piece of what we love. You ever been to a music concert, movie, night club etc? Well the whole world is full of suckers and (no pun intended) evil makes a hell of a lot more money than religion. Just for the record, I go to music concert, movie, night club etc., but I select where I go & what I do. I have hope for a better life after leaving this evil world and even if I’m gullible we all including you think about contingencies regarding the second coming of the All Mighty one who created everything. You talk about believers doing fraud etc. etc. etc. & killing in the name of our God & a whole bunch of other random things you heard other atheists talk about. But in reality we are not perfect and sometimes we get some little demon tempting us just like Jesus was tempted by Satan. About the killing in the name of God, give me an example after the old testament in our Holy Bible & modern day society where Christians kill. I believe Satanists still sacrifice humans to Satan in todays day and age. Please respond in a sophisticated respectful manor.

      slojam - 2011-07-13 08:07

      Even more fascinating is to see how ignorant some people are to believe that there is no God. How foolish! How do they think they came into existance? By their own will or desire? Oh, watch all the fools with their own theories of why they think God does not exist try to prove to themselves that they are right by trying to tongue lash me now... :P

      2c - 2011-07-13 08:08

      Ace, please look up modern killing in the name of religion yourself, it's all around you and yet out of ignorance or your unquestioning nature you have been brought up with, you expect others to inform you of the truth, just as they have informed you about your "faith". People are like sheep and they because they are spoonfed, they get lazy. Lazy=ignorance=poor.

      Ace - 2011-07-13 08:37

      2c I am sure there are many religions who thinks it is OK to kill humans for their religion, but Christianity is the religion I’m saying does not condone with murder & therefore we do not kill for our God.

      Ace - 2011-07-13 08:38

      News24 please don't delete my comments.

      Wolraad Woltemade - 2011-07-13 08:40

      @2c - Who said they are "Christian?" The history books? "Non-Believers" commit much greater atrocities around the world, than would ever be found against Christians - Be truthful, not hate-filled! What you believe is up to you, I choose to believe in eternal life... If the price is "poverty" as you call it, then so be it! "For what does it profit a man by gaining the world but losing his own soul?" If you serve the god mammon, you will be greatly disappointed, because it is the weakest god invented by man ever... As for me: I consider myself wealthy in all aspects of life (and I am surely not financially poor as you presume) but; "seek first the kingdom of heaven and all other things will be added onto you" - the underlining factor is however "seek first the Kingdom (God's will) and its righteousness truthfully and unconditionally..."

      Nuraq - 2011-07-13 08:54

      @Ace. Examples you want? Let's start with something from your beloved new testament. Acts 12:23 - And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. Now, modern day example. Mmmmm, difficult one. Perhaps you should get your head out of your holy behind and follow the news. Christians in Ireland are, at this very moment, preparing to protest against other Christians marching, and this happens every year. Here is a link that might be of interest to you. Give me a shout I need to pint out where Christians are involved in religious wars. http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm

      Matt - 2011-07-13 08:59

      @ Zaatheist - I would say exactly the same about atheists and evolutionists... and would probably have more reasons to do so! EG the Big Bang was already proven to be impossible (not by creationists either!) almost 30 years ago but in the absence of a better theory, they're flogging a dead horse and people like you hold fast to it with dear life and zealous faith...

      Ace - 2011-07-13 09:01

      Nuraq we're talking about killing for our God in His name in the form of sacrifice.

      Matt - 2011-07-13 09:01

      @ Nuraq - Stalin, Mao Tse Tung... google what they believed and practiced and what happened as a result - some 170 million death later here we are @ Slojam - AMEN!

      Tooth Fairy - 2011-07-13 09:02

      "...Non-Believers commit much greater atrocities around the world..." Good point. Well founded as well. This explains why the most secular societies (the godless heathens) like Sweden, Denmark, Japan, Singapore, etc. are violent, intolerant, uncivilised, undemocratic and selfish barbarians... They should learn from some of the most god fearing societies like Bolivia, etc.

      Wolraad Woltemade - 2011-07-13 09:16

      HMMM ... Scandinavia as a region has one of the highest Protestant church memberships in the world. Japan - Non-violent history? Are you for real...? Scandinavia used to be Viking, which was until the Protestant Christian faith got a foot-hole... For some reason, Catholicism never got a good stronghold there... Any case, you can't look at an end-product with secular freedom as a result of Christian seed...

      Wolraad Woltemade - 2011-07-13 09:17

      ...as for the far east - It is the fastest growing Christian (convert) community.

      Phantom - 2011-07-13 09:23

      Nuraq, the scripture you quoted from Acts has got nothing to do with Christians killing other people. Herod was a wicked man and deserved what he got. God struck him there. Remember, God is not only about love, but also a righteous God. Don't quote single verses from the Bible and make an interpretation without knowing the background. You're just showing your ignorance.

      Matt - 2011-07-13 09:30

      @ Tooth Fairy - Sweden - maybe do some research into eugenics in Sweden. Sweden is considered Lutheran and 70% of the people are members of the Church of Sweden, but often by default - atheism is on the rise there Japan - oh, only now... maybe you should see what Japan did in Manchuria, or Bataan... see how their swallowing of evolution turned them into uncaring maniacs. Like a POW in Bataan, a Japanese soldier walked past him, stabbed him with his bayonet with no reason, then walked on. Or how the Japanese would extract POW's fingernails for no reason. Or how they killed POWs for no reason other than their belief that THEY were the "higher evolved species" (they even "proved" it "scientifically") and killing "inferior species" is actually doing evolution a favour...

      Tooth Fairy - 2011-07-13 10:00

      Belief in a God: Sweden = 23%. Therefore 77% do not believe in any God. The Statistical Office of the European Community, Luxembourg. http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat. http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/scandinavia.html#BI_019 So this modern secular Japan is a bunch of violent, selfish barbarians? Thanks for correcting me - I did not know this. Yes, you are correct: the Vikings and other crusaders were a real bunch of barbarians - whilst stonlgly under the influence of religion at the time. Fortunately their descendants are mostly recovering believers.

      Phantom - 2011-07-13 10:11

      Sweden, a good example of a once God-fearing nation who turned their backs on God. There are more such countries. The Netherlands is another example.

      pop101 - 2011-07-13 10:13

      T Fairy, So how does Thor and Loki fit into Viking Christian religion? Or are you talking about ancient Nordic religion, which does not include God.

      Tooth Fairy - 2011-07-13 10:25

      Pop101, "Religion is a system of emotionally binding beliefs and practices in which a society implicitly negotiates through prayer and sacrifice with supernatural agents, securing from them commands that compel members through fear of divine punishment, to subordinate their interests to a common good" (The Faith Instinct: N wade) Therefore any of the some 2800 gods we have invented thus far - including yours, Thor, Loki and the Spaghetti Monster are the same thing: The product of our imagnation who fits into the above mentioned definition. If you are really interested in this topic, read The Faith Instinct - Nicholas Wade. Well reasearched and fascinating.

      pop101 - 2011-07-13 10:33

      Aaaah, thanks. But surely you can distinguish between Christianity and other religions. Or do you throw them all in the same pot?

      Tooth Fairy - 2011-07-13 10:43

      Pop101, I do not follow? Surely all religions have characteristics that make them unique? If you read the book you will also notice how they are alike, including the same evolution they all go through. Also take a look at "God and his Demons" (M Parenti) Fascinating

      Matt - 2011-07-13 12:02

      @ Phantom - definitely, I grew up in Holland and can testify that you are right! @ Tooth Fairy - Spaghetti Monster again - excellently copied-pasted sir :-)

      Tooth Fairy - 2011-07-13 15:27

      Matt, I WARN you to repent, and not to make a mockery of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster You will roast in a pasta oven ad infinitum because you followed the wrong god. This is a fact - because it has been revealed to me telepathically. He embraces me with his lovely noodly appendages. If you have not experienced this, you will never get it... There are also many who believe it. Therefore it must be true. This faith is also described in old books, therefore it must be true. Many clever people believe in it. So it must be true. Better believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster - you have nothing to lose if you do, but stand a chance to burn eternally in a pasta oven if you don't. (look up Pascal's Wager) Pasta greetings, the Tooth Fairy.

      Matt - 2011-07-13 16:11

      @ Tooth Fairy - careful, your Ctrl and C keys will soon wear out

  • Joepublic1 - 2011-07-13 06:50

    At least these people has a reason to kill , why do you do it ?

      2c - 2011-07-13 08:09

      Joepublic1.....huh?

  • Marieta - 2011-07-13 08:27

    Man so nice it would be to go there!

  • Wolraad Woltemade - 2011-07-13 08:29

    Question: "Quid est veritas" Answer: "In hoc Signo vince"

  • Mad Hatter - 2011-07-13 08:39

    I've got the site where Santa gave his first present in back garden , R1000pp and you can buy souveniers at the gift shop.

  • Nuraq - 2011-07-13 08:41

    Oh sweet jaisus! Here we go again (or continue going).

      Markal - 2011-07-13 09:35

      You said it!

  • Amen2011 - 2011-07-13 08:42

    @Ace: "......... & therefore we do not kill for our God". WOW!! Read your church history and avail yourself of the facts! ALL religions are divisive, selfserving, and have never hesitated killing those they regard as opposition. Was Hitler a christian, and Calvin & Co? Or PW Botha, Magnus Malan, Constance Viljoen?

      Ace - 2011-07-13 08:56

      To kill or be killed in the name of God is what we’re talking about. As for military orientated murder & fighting for control I have no say. If you believe Hitler was a Christian then you are wrong. He is the one who killed the Jews (Christians) remember, because he was trying to create perfect humans.

      Matt - 2011-07-13 09:09

      @ Amen2011 - oh brother... Hitler was not a Christian, do some research - he was a confirmed Catholic but hated Christianity (look for a book "Hitler's Cross" for interest) - Hitler used and abused Christianity to win support. Just read Mein Kampf and it is blatant! As for throwing Apartheid names at us, again try to research a bit more. I've just finished a book on apartheid media quotes by MPs and you know what - the only reference in there to Christianity was how Christians were condemning apartheid; I know there's more to it than this, but the apartheid regime ALSO abused Christianity - they openly believed in evolution, it is clear as day to see it even if you didn't already know - then tried to twist Bible verses to win support. But hey, Verwoerd studied in Nazi Germany and Vorster was in OB, what else would you expect hmm? Example - a Nat MP claimed Jesus was white because the Bible refers to someone descended of David being of "fair countenance". He twisted the word "fair" to mean "white". Actually, in the English he was quoting from, "fair" means pretty - nothing to do with skin colour! (think of "London Bridge is falling down, my fair lady" - in a country, in a time where everyone was white, why would they sing about a lady being white, duh! fair = pretty) And still, what about Stalin and Mao - between 2 atheists/evolutionists, some 170 million deaths... even if Hitler and the Nats WERE Christian (just peradventure!), the casualties of atheism are still higher!

      pop101 - 2011-07-13 09:28

      Amen, you confuse political motives with religion. Sad really that you can't distinguish between the two.

      diode - 2011-07-13 10:45

      not the old atheist approach again, look at the history...please look at the Bible ..the Bible teaches us ; thou shalt not kill, love thy neighbour, be kind to your enemy, love other as thy love thyself ...is it starting to SINK in??? So if people kill in the name of religion or murder in the name of God, do you really think they are living out Christian values?? if you believe that you are more shallow than i thought. So, the crusades, and killings and torture under the roman catholic church cannot be classified as Christian acts, remember even the protestants were murdered because they did'nt want God's word to be changed or tainted. So please Atheists start from a different angle..its getting boring to explain the same anwer again and again. Read the Bible and see what it is about , anyone can say he/she is a Christian but as Jesus said you'll know them by their fruit, in other words their works or their deeds and if that contradicts what the Bible says then it cannot be used as an example.

      Matt - 2011-07-13 12:10

      To add to Diode's words - why do we think we have white people in SA to begin with? Where did the Huguenots come from? Well, from Holland, Belgium (part of Holland at the time) and France - Protestants fleeing Catholic persecution (at the time, the Reformation was in full swing but in many countries the Catholics managed to stem the flow, generally by force). It's often forgotten that the Inquisitions also targeted Bible-believing Christians... fyi though, the decree at the Council of Trent, that killing a Protestant is OK, was never repealed to this day. Hmm... By the same token though, I'm beyond working out what the Protestants are up to in Ulster - totally un-Christian! Still, a few bad people who profess Christianity doesn't mean God is bad - just like atheists aren't all bad because of Stalin, Mao or the commentators last week who used someone's kidnap and murder to attack Christians...

  • Phantom - 2011-07-13 09:32

    I see quite a few disrespectful comments here. Just remember, even though you do not respect Jesus, you cannot really justify your disrespect of Him. Try name any aspect of Jesus' character or behaviour of which you do not approve. He is the example all Christians should follow. Not that all Christians do that.

      zaatheist - 2011-07-13 15:03

      All people deserve respect, but not all ideas do. I don’t respect the idea that a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead. I don’t respect the idea that we should follow a "Prophet" who at the age of 53 had sex with a nine-year old girl, and ordered the murder of whole villages of Jews because they wouldn’t follow him. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.– Thomas Jefferson

      Matt - 2011-07-13 16:14

      Agreed. Just like I do not respect the idea that nothing exploded, violated several laws, violated laws again to create the earth, matter "emerging" from non-living matter, kind changing its kind... and I have much less respect for the lies in the textbooks that are still used dogmatically to prove something when they were proven wrong or (worse) fraudulent ages ago...

      mike - 2011-07-13 16:25

      because there is no such f***ing thing?

      Ace - 2011-07-14 07:59

      Zaatheist, if you say all people deserve respect then why not respect Christians who wants to see the site where Jesus was baptised. You’re the one who started insulting Christianity & the means of creating employment & funding Christian orientated activities. You pay taxes to a government who does not know anything about you except for your IRP5 info. You don’t respect the idea that a man was born of a virgin, yet in today’s day and age woman can be impregnated with the help of AI without being sexually active. It took man 2000 years to do what God did then, but ye it’s possible. As for the walking on water & rising from the dead, perhaps in another 2000 years from now it will also be a reality. Can you please tell me which Christian "Prophet" who at the age of 53 had sex with a nine-year old girl, and ordered the murder of whole villages of Jews because they wouldn’t follow him. Thomas Jefferson was a believer of something, but it was not Christianity. Thanks for sending me on a nice investigative journey into history. Have a awesome day zaatheist

      Phantom - 2011-07-14 20:48

      Ace, that "Prophet" was Muhammad.

      Ace - 2011-07-15 07:32

      Not Christian!!!

  • j4truth - 2011-07-13 13:39

    IT IS APPOINTED . . UNTO MAN . . ONCE TO DIE . . . AND AFTER THIS . . . THE JUDGEMENT! Come to Christ as Saviour - Today!

      Tooth Fairy - 2011-07-13 14:44

      Oh! And how do you know this? Please share you evidence with me and mankind. As far as I can establish, your religion is based on: 1) 100% hearsay stories, in turn based on 2) interpretations of 3) the myths of 4) a primitive bronze-age tribe of goat herders It is about a cosmic Jew (who was his own father) can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a naked rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Join me for a cup of tea next Tuesday with Alice in Wonderland!

      Realist72 - 2011-07-13 15:53

      @Tooth Fairy: It is faith! I believe in the Holy Bible and in Jesus Christ our Savior! The Bible is proof enough. If you knew the Bible then you would now what I'm talking about. And as for proof, most of the science you believe cannot be proven either, yet you believe it. For example, when exactly was the bronze-age? Based on what 'proof' can you establish an objects age? (and don't even try saying Carbon dating)... The point is, at some stage you just have to believe something, not based on 'proof' but based on faith.

      Matt - 2011-07-13 16:22

      @ Realist72 - atheists/humanists will fight me on this one but tough - if there are two theories for everything (there is a God or there isn't; everything was created or everything created itself) and you can prove the impossibility and improbability of the one, that automatically proves the other unless another theory arises. So when dating systems (Carbon dating, potassium-argon dating, etc) are proven beyond doubt to be a crock of rubbish, that should put the dumb theories to bed - instead they get flogged and flogged because how else do you answer questions that include a God, without a God? Living material, dated material (ie you know when it died), the dating methods are proven seriously wrong - but if you don't know the date, it magically works... they would have called strata from Mt Etna between 250k and 8.5m years old, had nobody been present when the event horizon occured 30 years ago :-) Just like the KBS Tuff would have been kept at 230mya had they not found a skull, now it's apparently 0.5 - 2.6mya - new dates 500% margin of error, 9000% between new and old. "Oh but it's true, you dumb Christians, you'd better believe it" lol! @ Tooth Fairy - again, you've copied-pasted that, have seen the exact same text before. You're also trying to show "you're smart, we're dumb" - anyone else get that vibe? You'll battle to convert us to humanism this way... Jesus is Lord and Saviour - is it so horrible to accept? Heaven awaits...

      mike - 2011-07-13 16:27

      @realist - can I also get some of that acid that you are on?

      Matt - 2011-07-13 16:30

      Oh and just to add - atheism and humanism are religions too, for they erquire faith. You don't KNOW there is no God, you BELIEVE it. Humanism is a confirmed religion, it's been admitted in their manifestos. Atheists deny it but look... they BELIEVE there is no God, they BELIEVE evolution/big bang is a fact when even the textbooks and science journals which feed their ideas say it's theories, they hate other ideas with religious zeal - people have been fired from universities for daring to suggest Darwin was wrong, let alone doubt the entire theory - Dr Cuozzo was "followed" in Paris when he went to deliver his findings on Neanderthal Man (showing that the creationists had it right all along)... sounds like a religion to me! Sadly, this religion is tax-supported and enforced on anyone who goes to school here... when my boy goes to primary school, the teachers are going to loathe me... Finally, one thing I saw last week - wanted to put it on the board but then I got angry with atheists using a man's kidnap and death to attack Christianity so it got delayed... tree-sap found from the Cretaecious Age (65 million years ago) with a wasp inside. This does not fit in with evolution at all, as wasps weren't meant to be evolved that far yet... hmm? (FB page "we can and we will find 1,000,000 creationists by June 2011" - and no they haven't but they can't change their name - stunning page though, gives daily evidence against evolution)

      Phantom - 2011-07-13 16:36

      Atheists to Christians: "You poor twits." Christians to Atheists: "You poor souls."

      Matt - 2011-07-13 16:40

      @ Mike - or, you could remove the need to be smug and show Realist where he/she is wrong... now there's a challenge! I have to leave now, but @ Realist72 - hold true, then there's nothing they can do - and boy do they try ;-) good evening everyone!

      Tooth Fairy - 2011-07-13 17:22

      Faith: To believe in something (anything) without proof. When there is proof, it is called a FACT, not faith anymore. This applies to religion, alternative medicine, etc. The heliocentric model is "only a theory" as is everything else in science that remains open for rejection, alteration or confirmation. It is however a well proven theory (as is evolution). I certainly do not need "faith" to believe that earth orbits the sun, and not the other way. "Atheism is a faith": Well, then the not-collecting of stamps is a hobby and the not-playing of rugby is a sport. Aheists do not BELIEVE in anything. If an atheist do not know or cannot explain something, then ... he does not know (yet). Full stop. Goddidit, magic or the supernatural is not the default fall-back position for (current) gaps in knowledge. (Except for Matt). @ Realist: "...Bible is proof enough..." Using the Bible to prove the Bible heh? Then using Harry Potter books to prove that Hogworths is a real school should also work for you. Copy and paste: Matt, somehow it makes the CONTENT less valid in your mind or what? You keep on repeating your stories ad infinitum. Repeating, in your mind, is more acceptable than copying? And you critisize STYLE but seldom take on CONTENT... So Matt: tell us: is the earth a couple of thousands years old or what? And were species created seperately?

      Tooth Fairy - 2011-07-13 22:21

      Matt: "...tree-sap found from the Cretaecious Age (65 million years ago) with a wasp inside. This does not fit in with evolution at all, as wasps weren't meant to be evolved that far yet... " How on eath did you arrive at this conclusion? Wasps were there LONG before bees and bees evolved from the wasp family about 100 million years ago. So who is feeding you this bulls..t ? You have a habit of telling (each other) cr@p about evolution (such as that our ancestors were apes, wasps stories, and other fallacies) until you believe it to be true of the evolution theory. Give the source, I will clear it up for you.

      Ace - 2011-07-14 08:35

      Tooth Fairy, Here’s a scenario. Imagine you’re enjoying a nice summer holiday with your family at the coast and you enjoyed a nice sunny day. You watch the news that evening & the weather man says the next day a cold front will be entering your area and it will be better to remain indoors. You look outside & see the stars, moon & there is no sign of wind in the air. My question to you is will you go ahead with arrangements to enjoy a picnic on the beach with your family the next day? Or will you trust the weather man who has more information & understanding than you about the forces of nature that will take place the next day & inform your family about the picnic being cancelled. Do you trust the weatherman & make alternative arrangements like taking your family to the movies instead. The Holy Bible is Christianity’s weatherman & just like the scenario I gave you so you could understand what I’m trying to say, the bible has a lot of scenarios & stories so we can understand. Shakespeare wrote in many weird and sometimes cryptic ways, yet if you read his work & someone explains it to you, you will understand it. The Christian Bible is the same & was written over thousands of years with many things not making sense, but if someone explains it to you, you might understand. By the way Jesus was not his own father, he has a father who we call God & they have a Holy Spirit with Them in a Holy Trinity. Very interesting stuff and great once you allow yourself to understand it.

      Tooth Fairy - 2011-07-14 19:20

      The weatherman is a real person - even observable and provable. His forecast is based on observations and there is (some) science behind it. To compare him with a 100% unobservable, 100% hearsay person based on a Bronze Age myth of goat herders is ridiculous About your bible: "To be fair, much of the Bible is not systematically evil but just plain weird, as you would expect of a chaotically cobbled-together anthology of disjointed documents, composed, revised, translated, distorted and 'improved' by hundreds of anonymous authors, editors and copyists, unknown to us and mostly unknown to each other, spanning nine centuries" — Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

      Phantom - 2011-07-14 20:53

      Tooth Fairy, to you atheists the Bible appears "chaotically cobbled-together", but not to us.

  • Noctis Lupus@24.com - 2011-07-13 19:57

    Toothfairy..you forgot to mention wonderful atheist countries such as China, North Korea, Russia etc.

      Tooth Fairy - 2011-07-13 21:53

      Noctis, you can add Zim, led by a mass murderer who is a devout Catholic. These countries are or were recently oppressed by despotic regimes - with bamboozled and damaged citizens. In the case of North Korea, the despotic ruler is a psychopath. My point that I have illustrated is that a person (or a community or country) do not need religion to be civilised, fair, just, good, honest, altruistic etc. This a fallacy and lie that the religious tell (each other) until it becomes a generally accepted "truth"

      Noctis Lupus@24.com - 2011-07-14 20:30

      Tooth Fairy...when you use words such as good or bad, you are borrowing from the religious worldview, as there is no basis for these in the naturalistic worldview. I am not saying an atheist cannot be a good or moral person though.I would like to share a quote from one of my favourite Professors "...there is no good or evil,nothing but blind pitiless indifference." I agree with him in the context of his quote and to illustrate my point. Yet materialists use atrocities committed by evil men to attach "evil" to religion. I am not certain that anybody claimed that someone requires religion in order to be good, fair, civilised etc. I was merely illustrating that you cannot claim that the secular states are all utopian in comparison with the religious states. Whilst I am no fan of catholiscism, you need to ask yourself, is Mugabe acting consistantly with what catholiscism teaches? And no, I am not attempting to commit a no true Scottsman fallacy here. Where Mao, Stalin, Pol pot acting in a consistant manner with their worldviews?

      Tooth Fairy - 2011-07-15 11:07

      "... you are borrowing from the religious worldview, as there is no basis for these (good or evil) in the naturalistic worldview..." This is a fallacy - fondly nurtered by the creationists. Morality (as well as altruism) is an instinct - a spin-off from our social instict, which is a product of natural selection. It is present in all human beings (and to some extent in some primates as well) - regardless of race, upbringing, religious indoctination or not. It starts to manifest at around 2-years of age. Want some scientic evidence for that? The oppression and disregard of women over the ages(and cruelty towards animals) are excellent examples of: “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes takes religion” - Steven Weinberg "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" (W.F. Trotter)

      Noctis Lupus@24.com - 2011-07-16 20:53

      “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes takes religion” - Steven Weinberg "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" (W.F. Trotter) Right...so according to these two gentleman, because Mao, Stalin, Pol pot et al were not acting with religious conviction, their acts were not as evil? Of course these are mere opinions and I would easily disagree with them. I would state that man, left to his own devices is a capable of pure evil. The worst atrocities committed in the name of secular humanism. Morality is by it's very nature metaphysical. Natural selection would deal with the physical, instinct with learn't behaviour.As to whether one could tie the conceptual with the physical would be less than tenable. I have read a number of articles that attempt these intellectual gymnastics but none seem to hold any hard proof. Please do post your links that have the hard evidence I seek. I would like to leave you with another qoute by Prof. Dawkins: Jaron Lanier: ‘There’s a large group of people who simply are uncomfortable with accepting evolution because it leads to what they perceive as a moral vacuum, in which their best impulses have no basis in nature.’ Richard Dawkins: ‘All I can say is, That’s just tough. We have to face up to the truth.’ Mr Dawkins is 100% correct in his assertation as a materialist.

      Noctis Lupus@24.com - 2011-07-16 20:58

      continued from above..Morality is thus reduced to mere opinion. If they are inherited traits from evolutionary processes,then when one group is personally convicted that cannibalism is acceptable and another group holds the opposing position, how do you determine who holds the moral high ground, since it is merely mans opinion versus another mans opinion. Face facts, evolution processes hold no place for morality or ethics.

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