No to gay marriage - Church of England

2012-06-12 13:09

London - The Church of England formally objected on Tuesday to the government's proposal to permit gay marriages, asserting that the church's historic understanding is that marriage is a union of a woman and a man.

Prime Minister David Cameron is backing a proposal to permit civil marriages for gay couples, despite the strong opposition of some lawmakers in his Conservative Party. The government's proposal would also allow heterosexual couples to form civil partnerships, which were introduced for gay couples in 2005.

The issue has caused friction between Cameron, who is allowing party members to vote their conscience on the legislation, and Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg who expects all members of his Liberal Democrat party to support the change.

The church's paper was released on the day when the traditional marriage group Coalition for Marriage plans to bring to Cameron's office a petition with more than half a million signatures opposing the change.

In a paper drafted by English bishops and the Archbishops' Council, the church argued that gay couples already have many of the legal benefits of marriage through civil partnerships and worried that churches could ultimately be required to perform same-sex marriages.

'Legal gain'

"To change the nature of marriage for everyone will be divisive and deliver no obvious legal gain given the rights already conferred by civil partnerships," the church said.

"We believe that imposing for essentially ideological reasons a new meaning on a term as familiar and fundamental as marriage would be deeply unwise."

Gay marriage backers pointed out that the legislation would only focus on civil marriages and would exempt religious groups from any duty to perform same-sex marriages.

Peter Tatchell, a leader of the Equal Love campaign for gay marriage, accused the church of "scaremongering, exaggerating the effects of same-sex marriage and advocating legal discrimination."

About a fourth of weddings in England take place in Church of England churches, which are legally obligated to provide a marriage service for any resident of a local parish who wishes it, regardless of church membership.

  • kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-06-12 13:25

    Awesome! Glad there are still some churches that uphold Christians values. :)

      Squeegee - 2012-06-12 14:00

      Who let the devil out? zaathiest the troll strikes again.

      templar.known - 2012-06-12 14:01

      Kobus, which Christian values in particular are you referring to?

      shudusO - 2012-06-12 14:05

      Finally someone is standing for truth...this thing of politicians approving things just because they want votes is just wrong.

      kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-06-12 14:09

      Templar, have you a bible? Start with Romans 1, Jude 1, 1 Corinthians 6 etc. (Note Im not even quoting the old testament) :)

      Bryan - 2012-06-12 14:09

      This is the 21st century FFS.... Maybe the over zealous Church of England need to realize that we dont live in the 1500's...

      zaatheist - 2012-06-12 14:09

      @Squeegee The usual ad hominem to avoid having to deal with the issues raised.

      zaatheist - 2012-06-12 14:11

      @shudusO Please tell me how gays getting married affects you personally? And what measure to you claim it is wrong?

      stuart.steedman - 2012-06-12 14:28

      Christians used the Bible to say that interracial marriage was wrong in 1950 and before, in both SA and the USA. The Bible has always been a document of hate, used to push narrow agendas. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that the Bible is not an instruction manual, it's a menu. Readers of it can cherry pick the bits they want to follow and what not to eat.

      Emile - 2012-06-12 14:31

      oh hey, its zaatheist again lol. waddup buddy. now here im gonna agree completely with you for a change. certain biblical law is applied liberally, while others are shunned as being archaic or not in context. the church of england deserves to lose this one, or start applying the bible to completion.

      templar.known - 2012-06-12 14:32

      @ Kobus. Can I assume that your denunciation of gays is based on a few singular verses from the Bible? You are very quick to judge, show anger and belittle those who disagree with you, and you wasted no time at all to condemn gay people on this very public forum. Does your Bible not teach you to show love, tolerance, compassion and dearness to all, and judge no-one? Or have you decided not to adhere to those particular “Christian values” as you put it?

      Kyle - 2012-06-12 14:32

      South Africans pride themselves on highlighting the differences between each other. We will always remain a backwards third world country because we are so unashamedly intolerant. If it's not a race row, it will be a religious one or a gender one. Our Constitution enshrines rights for us all to be equal and not discriminated against. Gay marriage is at the bottom of the priority list for people to channel their energy into. Christians are always trying to uphold Christian values however they are the always the first to judge other people for their lifestyles and choices.

      stuart.steedman - 2012-06-12 14:35

      And also, what exactly are Christian values. Would these be the values that endorse slavery? That tells you it's okay to murder a disrespectful child? That beating your wife is acceptable? That laying waste to a city and murdering its inhabitants - women and children too - is a-okay in the eyes of Beardie in the sky? Because I put it to you that Christian values are nothing I would want to have, because contrary to your leatherbound volume of fairy tales, I love my fellow man and live a life of empathetic morality. "It takes hearing the Word to become a Christian. It takes reading the Bible to become an atheist."

      Greg - 2012-06-12 16:16

      Common sense is really not that common .... @ all those who think NATURAL LAW is flawed ... the drive by and for homosexuals to have their 'unions' treated as marriage is one of the marks of Satan (adversary) determined to destroy the Divine plan contained in the natural order of things. Those who do not believe in God see nothong wrong in this development .... so my arguement will make no (common) sense to them ...... the faithful however recognise the hand of Satan challenging God in and through us .... fight the Good fight, keep the Faith. - 2012-06-12 16:57

      @ Kobus - you need to come out of your closet. @ Greg - "Marks of Satan"... blah blah blah.... this isn't 1634.

      kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-06-12 21:04

      Well said Greg, Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

      Emile - 2012-06-13 02:06

      @greg - saying your argument wont make sense to somebody who does not think the way you do does not validate it as truth, just so you know. you are obviously referring to christian natural law, which state that those not of christian law are a law unto themselves. church of england has no say in the matter - period. unfortunately, since the law prohibits them from denying marriage to any valid parties they need to ensure that gay marriage stays "invalid". if you have a problem with gay marriages then dont go to the wedding. apart from that all you can do is stfu

      Greg - 2012-06-14 14:24

      @Emile ... Natural law is not religion based, Sorry. It is simply the honest and objective observation of the order of things in nature. Male & Female. It is what it is, don't hate. Rather when we try to go contrary to natural law, we are saying that nature is flawed, man & man or woman & woman should be the natural order of things .... yeah right!!! Common sense!!

      atholl.hay - 2012-06-15 22:52

      The Bible has been misused to defend bloody crusades and tragic inquisitions; to support slavery, apartheid, and segregation; to persecute Jews and other non-Christian people of faith; to support Hitler’s Third Reich and the Holocaust; to oppose medical science; to condemn interracial marriage; to execute women as witches; and to support the Ku Klux Klan. "Even the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."

  • twellington3 - 2012-06-12 13:28

    Why should they ask or even consider the views of a selfish group called christians who do not want people to be happy as they are in life. Whether people like it or not, gay marriages should be allowed, as it is a right of that person to choose what ever he or she wants

      kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-06-12 13:32

      Strange that they disregard God but still want to be married in a church (which is God's house). If they so much want to marry, let them go to a court or dungeon. It remains an abomination according to the Bible so why want to legalize their unions in a church?

      kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-06-12 13:46

      @ Zaatheist, bla bla bla. Got some good news for you though. They are considering some new holidays. 1 April will be just fine for the atheists LOL

      zaatheist - 2012-06-12 13:57

      Ag Shame kobus It that what I have reduced you to? You cannot rebut my arguments using your own scriptures so you go all April One on me.

      kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-06-12 14:06

      Zaatheist, you dont even believe in God so why this obsession about them getting married in a church? They can just as well go do it on the beach singing acracadabra.

      charlie.elford.5 - 2012-06-12 14:25

      Kobus, getting married had nothing to do with your god, for me. We got married so that we can share in the legal rights which you get for mahala.

      charlie.elford.5 - 2012-06-12 14:25

      Well, you've had easter bunny weekend for long enough now, kobus... and santa day

      kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-06-12 14:29

      Samurai, you can do that and have the same right in going to a court. Did you know that? Some straights even marry in court and still have the same legal rights ;)

      templar.known - 2012-06-12 14:49

      Kobus, reading and quoting from the Bible does not make one a Christian. Case in point my mate zaathiest here, he reads and quotes from the Bible all the time, yet he is an Atheist. If you want to call yourself a Christian, then act like one.

      kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-06-12 14:55

      Agree with you on that Templar. Reading the Bible, believing and praying does not make one saved. Being reborn does. John 3:3

      Greg - 2012-06-12 16:19

      Do it but don't ask the Church / Mosque / etc to sanction it .... wrong is wrong, finished an claar

      Sharon - 2012-06-12 19:29

      wellie - looks like you walk around dropping money

      Emile - 2012-06-13 02:12

      something to note is that just cuz you are gay does not automatically make you an atheist. this is the reason gays want to marry in churches. its part of their beliefs. people automatically assume that gay people are non-believers. what would make you think that?

  • zaatheist - 2012-06-12 13:33

    150+ years ago these religious nutters were ranting on to protect slavery. Up till into the 1990's they ranted on against people with dark skins and used the bible to justify apartheid. They lost those battles. And since religion always attempts to separate the sheep form the rest of society, to make the sheep feel superior, they need bogeymen. Gays are in. When they eventually lose this battle they will come after the non-believers again.

      eyesears.handsfeet - 2012-06-12 13:53

      It sounds like you are very unhappy. Are their ever anything good coming from your heart. Do you even care about other people except yourself? I understand your difference of opinion but will not let it confuse me between the so-called caring of others versus, care for only one self. Do us all a favour and put a smile on your dail. Not everything is negative in this world and others also have the right to their opinion, otherwise we are not human, but drones.

      zaatheist - 2012-06-12 13:58

      eyesears.handsfeet Do you understand the issues I have raised. Do you not wish to address them? Can you address them? No! Ok. I understand.

      Jimmy - 2012-06-12 14:38

      That comparison is warped. Racism and homosexual rights are not the same!

      eyesears.handsfeet - 2012-06-12 17:03

      Please see my later comment. This will remain a personal issue, form that point of view!

  • Carol - 2012-06-12 13:43

    Well then, let gay people get married out of church, at the end of the day it is only a 15 or so minute timeframe versus years of happiness together the way they wish ... how dare anyone dictate who you should or should not marry, least of the bible !!

      zaatheist - 2012-06-12 14:00

      Hear. Hear. Carol. I would like these homophobic bigots to explain what impact a gay marriage has on their lives. It is just a knee jerk reaction to what their preachermen have brainwashed them with.

      kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-06-12 14:04

      If it was not for the Bible, would they even now the word married? Which is meant between a man and a woman anyway. SOOOO, if they do want to marry, let them do so in another building other than a church. So quick to shoot down God, Christians, the Bible etc but boy oh boy, they still want to marry in a church thinking (falsely) that God would bless this union. What a joke!

      zaatheist - 2012-06-12 14:16

      kobus.hattingh.5 "Word married." Citation please or you are making stuff up. You should be actually welcoming gay people who believe in god in to you churches and allowing them to get married there. But you are a cafeteria fundie Christian, right? You just make stuff up as you go along tailoring the bible to fit your lifestyle. The way you are carrying on here about gays it is almost as if you have a secret wish to join in. Top 10 Anti-Gay Activists Caught Being Gay lift my luggage

      kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-06-12 14:18

      No zaatheist, not at all. The purpose for bringing them to a church would be for them to have a meeting with God and to allow Him to change their ways and follow Him. Not to commit an abomination in His house. If a church is not welcoming of this behaviour, why would they want to marry there in any case. The purpose of following God is to be renewed in your mind and let the teachings in the Bible transform you to the likeness of God. Not to transform God to your way of thinking :)

      colin.langley - 2012-06-12 14:26

      OMG zaathiest.....that was the funniest thing i have read all day..i'm on the floor with laughter!..lift my luggage...HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHA

      stuart.steedman - 2012-06-12 14:31

      @Kobus, marriage predates your rather new religion of Christianity mate. So yes, they could have married without there having ever been a bible.

      zaatheist - 2012-06-12 14:39

      stuart.steedman Kobus has a smart act at making stuff up as he goes along. He must get his god confused.

      Rodney - 2012-06-12 17:03

      Zaatheist, why do you only bang on about the bible being against homosexuality? The majority of black tribes throughout Africa are against it, the Koran is against it, as is Bhuddism and a few other major religions/path of life. You seem to hate christians because they are christian and for no other reason, why is that? I am neither here nor there on gay marriage, they can marry if they want, like the rest of the population, although why they insist on getting married in a church is beyond me. Like everything else in this world, if you don't follow the rules of a particular club, you can't join, same goes for christianity, you don't have to agree with their rules, but you should not be allowed to condemn the members for their belief either.

      zaatheist - 2012-06-12 18:40

      #Rodney Feeling persecuted much. If you follow the comments here most of the bigoted homophobic hatreds are expressed by Christians. BTW, I am an ex-Christian. I am tired of the hypocritical cherry picking of the bible to suit the preconceived notions of people who call themselves Christians. If Jesus existed he would not recognise any of then as his followers.

      kobus.hattingh.5 - 2012-06-12 19:01

      Carol the same applies both ways. How dare gays demand from churches to be married in them. If it is against our belief, they should respect that and not try and force Pastors to do this abomination which goes against what we belief.

      Emile - 2012-06-13 02:33

      @kobus - you are right, you are right for all the wrong reasons, but you are right regardless. well played sir, a thumb for you

  • colin.langley - 2012-06-12 13:56

    Some say homosexuality is a sin. It's not. God is perfectly cool with it, and he feels the same way about homosexuality as he does about heterosexuality. Now you might say wooo, wooo, slow down you move to fast. How could you have the audacity, the temerity to speak on the behalf of God? Exactly, that's an excellent point, and i pray that you remember it.

      zaatheist - 2012-06-12 14:16

      Yes, well said.

      colin.langley - 2012-06-12 14:21

      I can see by the thumbs down that some people just can't handle the truth

      Emile - 2012-06-12 14:37

      lmao! oh dude, serious burn

      colin.langley - 2012-06-12 14:50

      Yeah Ryno......there are only two things that will cause the annihilation of the human's religion or climate change. When someone believes that there is a life of peace and tranquility after death they are the most dangerous

      Carol - 2012-06-12 15:03

      I think there is someone who roves News24 and just "thumbs down" anything just because they can .... it is infuriating ... - 2012-06-12 17:02

      @ bearup - its not that people can;t handle the "truth"...its that they make up their OWN "truth" claim it to be THE truth, and p!ss in their panties when people don;t agree with their (version of ) the "truth" - why do you think we have all these wars, this hate in the world??? Its all because of "my truth" is better than "your truth". Yes CHRISTIANS I'm talking to you!! Hypocrites!

  • zuko.skitasi - 2012-06-12 14:09

    Good call by the church,can u imagine the impact it would have on young impressionable kids,act like a man in public and be a woman at home,especially if you're black.I've seen some ugly dark dudes trying to pull a fast one,we know u're a man,ziph'intloni ndoda?

      zaatheist - 2012-06-12 14:40

      Anther hate filled brain addled bigot.

      stuart.steedman - 2012-06-12 15:39

      Yeah, Lord forbid two people who love each other are actually allowed to express that love! You do realize the exact words you have used now, @Zuko, were used by the apartheidist regime to justify what interracial couples were an abomination unto god?

      Greg - 2012-06-12 16:25

      Male & Female ..... lets say it ..... male & female ..... God created them .... male & female .... male & male, hell no, female & female, in your dreams ... male & female

      jaba.kov - 2012-06-12 16:42

      I dono if i agree Greg. I’m a BIG fan of some women on women action...and im not even gay! Jokes aside... it’s their life... I have no say on what or who they choose to be with. live and let live

      Sharon - 2012-06-12 19:31

      zuko- pick up the soap

  • Kyle - 2012-06-12 14:10

    Did anyone get to vote or petition heterosexual marriage? This isn't even a point of discussion any longer, we live in a secular world. Religious views are no longer they determinate factor when deciding what is best for society and its people. How does gay marriage affect Christianity anyway? Please just carry on living your life and worshipping who you want. Do not feel you can interfere with the lives of others or the choices they wish to make. Do unto others and you would like them to do unto you. Love thy neighbour. Basically - Be a decent and tolerant human being!

      zaatheist - 2012-06-12 14:41

      Exactly. It does not affect them directly but they need people to discriminate again as it makes them feel superior.

  • wallace.outkast - 2012-06-25 10:39

    let all leave SA for 50 years and leave gay behind, in 2062 will send our kids to visit SA it will be a ghost country,,,no one alive

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