Saudi cleric warns against gender mixing

2013-01-04 22:05

Riyadh - Saudi Arabia's top cleric has warned against the mixing of the genders, saying that any attempt to violate a strict separation threatens female chastity and endangers society.

Grand Mufti Sheik Abdul-Aziz Al-Sheik said in his traditional Friday sermon that authorities must adhere to Shariah, or Islamic law, by ensuring men and women are separated as much as possible.

Al-Sheik said it is forbidden for women to unveil in front of men, warning that this will destroy the morals and values of society. The veil refers to the full face covering worn by most women in the ultraconservative kingdom.

Religious leaders in Saudi Arabia have spoken out against reforms introduced by King Abdullah, including allowing women to join the country's main advisory body and work in female apparel stores.

  • lyall.chazen - 2013-01-04 22:23

    I strongly agree.

      cameronrh1 - 2013-01-04 22:56

      Can you please put a bag over your head while you at it? Looking at your face will do more harm to society, so as a favour why not cover it and save us the mental scars?

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-05 02:05

      Obviously someone of infinite intelligence, I see. Perhaps sir would be reminded that in several Islamic states beheading is viewed as a perfectly humane punishment rendering your obviously stunning Hollywood blonde looks quite irrelevant? There would be little difference to your life as there seems to be very little evidence of a functional brain in said head to begin with seeing as how you so cleverly refuted the entire article and stayed on topic with impeccable grammar by commenting on my photo of all things.

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-05 02:47

      And judging by the majority of the comments I have seen here, I currently feel very ashamed to be a Western South African. How can our society really be better than that of Saudi Arabia when a woman is raped about every 30 seconds or so here? Is that the great fulfillment of the feminist agenda? Who are we to look down upon an intelligent and respected cleric for only trying to preserve a beautiful and quite mandatory part of a great religion? We should be learning from Islam instead of constantly mocking it out of sheer ignorance.

      bfvillet - 2013-01-05 05:56

      lyall i have been living here for 2 years now it shocks to see how you asume to talk on behalf of saudi woman let them speak for themselves

      nuus.reeder - 2013-01-05 06:55

      Great religion ... when a raped woman gets treated as the perp instead of the victim? No thanks, if you consider that great, all I can do is wonder wnat is going on in your head.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:32

      @ lyall.chazen - my mouth actually dropped open at your comments, but then from people stuck in the middle ages, it shouldn't come as a surprise. Firstly, you insinuate that it is the woman's fault that she is raped for not covering herself head-to-toe and not mixing with males. Secondly, how can I learn from a religion that stones a woman to death for being raped? Not to mention all the other oppressive hate-filled tennets of Islam. This is not ignorance, I know islam very well and have read the qu'ran, the hadiths and several older and modern interpretations by islamic scholars. I don't agree with a single word in it! Your "intelligent and respected cleric" is nothing but a bigot who hates and fears women. Open your eyes! Go and live in Saudi then, if democracy and freedom offends you so.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:36

      @ Umlilo - well said. It is a CULTURAL practice to cover the woman's face! Nowhere does it say in the qu'ran or the hadiths that a woman must cover her face! It is only stated that men and women both must dress modestly. Also, nowhere is it stated that men and women cannot mix in social or work-related situations. The oppression of women in countries such as Saudi, Iran and Afghanistan is cultural practices that is enforced by clerics that twist islam to their own ends. But then, that is nothing new. Religion has always been used to justify the unforgivable!

      andrew.crawford.50 - 2013-01-05 11:53

      Lyall, you should be aware that if a person clicks on your picture above your comment they are redirected to your Facebook profile! I did and listed on our "Likes" was "Punjabi Girls" and "Natalie Linx - Porn Star"! How do you rationalise that!

      ronald.stilianou - 2013-01-05 15:05

      Lyall, who is Nataly links?

      peter.woods.142 - 2013-01-06 03:50

      And a young girl got shot because she defied the taliban because she wanted to get an education.Keep women uneducated,is this the islamic way? Instead of gender seperation,teach islam to respect women,bunch of double standard hipocrates.

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-06 22:58

      I really only pity all of you who spend your lives moaning about crime and still living in the delusion that South Africa is somehow above basic religious morality. Do you not understand that if a society is without morals then criminals will never see anything wrong with their actions besides the risk of being caught? Simply skimming over what is probably a rather basic translation of the Qur'an hardly makes you an expert on Islam and you clearly have not read the Ahadith if you think covering the head is only a "cultural practice". Yes, you may say I am living in the "Dark Ages" but I do honestly believe people are generally less intelligent in the post-Enlightenment Age. How is doing away with ancient wisdom and religion of profit to anyone but the kind of miscreants who would have been burned at the stake not long ago? How are we better off when the death penalty was done away with? It is hardly a coincidence that violent crime has increased worldwide. Look at the chaos Europe happens to be in as a result of the people preferring social welfare and liberal lifestyles to the Catholic Church. And you are worried about women being "mistreated" in Saudi Arabia or Iran? Get your close-minded heads out of your liberal arses, look around you and maybe you would also realise that South Africa is more barbaric than any so-called "repressive" Islamic state you can think of.

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-07 04:06

      We're fighting sin and the Good Book says we'll win.

      ann.mathews.712 - 2013-01-07 09:15

      @Lyall. You are an idjit. Why are you here? Go back to your country where the rules are as you want them. If you cannot control yourself when a woman's face is not covered then it is your problem, don't make women and others suffer for your lack of self-control and personal develoment.

      jennifer.bosman.9 - 2013-01-07 10:04

      Lyall. You are an embarrasment. You are the type that drives people to view Islam in a horrible way. Your words are based on your backward and cultural opinion and interpretation(like some Saudis & the Taliban). I could direct you to hundreds of Muslim scholars, which will explain to you that women may wear what they want, as long as their intentions are pure. I urge all to read and understand that things like this occur in countries where culture and not religion are to blame...

  • carldecarvalho - 2013-01-04 22:25

    Both feet still firmly stuck in the dark ages.

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-05 02:07

      And how exactly is the so-called "modern Enlightened" West really superior?

      lacrimose.wolf - 2013-01-05 02:24

      @lyall.chazen - we regard all human beings as human beings, instead of instruments of breeding, commodities to be traded and part of our portfolios

      assa.vanderschaff - 2013-01-05 05:18

      You are living in the dark ages Rape of all genders same sex marriages just to name two of the killing of unborn babies how sick is the society that you uphold

      henk63 - 2013-01-05 13:21

      @lyall.chasen - easy answer. Western men can control themselves and do not ejaculate when they see a strip of female skin. Whenever one of us lose control and resort to rape, the man gets punished, not the victim. I think this says it all.

  • LiveYourOwnLife - 2013-01-04 22:28

    How backwards a're these people? Men have no right rofl treat woman as slaves nor other men. This is utterly disgusting. These woman need time be freed from a clearly oppressive and backwards law basis.

      nasreen.parak.1 - 2013-01-04 23:34

      As backward as the world sees it, when you actually go to Saudi and speak with the women there, you will see they choose to adorn the veil. They live pretty amazing lives, they don't have to work yet are given everything and are looked after. And you will hardly ever find a women who will complain she is oppressed or abused yet these women travel the world.

      AfricanJedi - 2013-01-04 23:46

      @ Nasreen.parak.1 until one of them is stoned for doing something silly like saying no to an arranged marriage? I guess than the laws are wrong. Wake up if They held a free memorandum I'm sure most women would want equal rights. Under Shariah law The woman loses everything if she is hinted at having done anything wrong. Its a backward law in a backward country. I hate to say this but they deserve to be invaded by the Americans for some obscure reason.

      lacrimose.wolf - 2013-01-05 01:06

      Always amuses me that a male-dominated society insists that their women "choose". As if a choice between the veil and death is free or fair

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-05 02:14

      @AfricanJedi you don't know the first thing about Shariah law, do you? I would suggest reading the Qur'an sometime especially the part where a woman's inheritance is quite distinctly defined. As far as I know, nothing like that is mentioned in the Jedi Code and you should know that women actually had very few rights in the Old Republic which you admire. May the Force be with you!

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:38

      @ nasreen.parak - really? If that is the truth, why are there frequent protests by women about for example the right to drive? Speaking as a woman, I would be ashamed to be "looked after"! I am not a child, and am very capable of looking after myself!

  • berni.venter - 2013-01-04 22:37

    So only men are allowed to work in female apparel stores??? Dodgy to say the least...

      Nasrodien Marcus - 2013-01-05 00:53

      how brain wash can u be how many women have been rape becuase of mixing with men how many men and women have affairs how many other things u want 2 happen before u will agree men and women must not mix we are the protectors of our women pls my brothers protect them the law of allah will stay the same till the end of time

      kortbroek.duplessis - 2013-01-05 02:10

      Nasrodien what yoy are suggesting is not protecting, it is called controlling and enslaving. As your brethren believes women are with less than a man. And your so-called allah laws are man-made laws,to conveniently suit men. Allah has nothing to do with it

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:39

      @ Nasrodien - perhaps men should be taught to control themselves, and castrated if they can't! Instead of oppressing women, it is men who have to learn.

      samantha.lister.09 - 2013-01-06 09:22

      @Nasrodien. We are fully competent to look after ourselves, thank you very much! I also happen to have a fully functioning brain and can therefore make my own decisions as to who I mix with and what I wear.

      Elisha - 2013-01-07 08:59

      Islam is a lie! Only Jesus can save you and He is the only way to be righteous with God!

  • lacrimose.wolf - 2013-01-04 22:52

    So when one race, religion or political structure dominates and denigrates another, it's an outrage. A human rights abuse. But when one gender dominates another that's rather quaint but nothing to get upset about. We live in a world of double-standards. Our values and morals, the countless Charters and Bills of Rights vanish when it is economically expedient.

  • Legohead1 - 2013-01-04 22:54

    The problem is these clerics what this kind of law not only in there own country but in every country in the world. Islam is making its way into every government in the free world. How many of you know the president of the USA is a Muslim. That the UK government is under pressure to make more cabinet seats available to Muslims. I wonder how many ANC government members are already Muslims. Islam is a religion of hate and control. Where the head of Islam rises then every other religion falls. They want total control. They are slowly creeping in while you don't notice. Wake up to the coming storm .

      Legohead1 - 2013-01-04 23:44

      Obama is a Muslim. Fact.

      zaakiro - 2013-01-05 01:04

      I guess your handle is "Legohead" for a reason

      lacrimose.wolf - 2013-01-05 01:13

      One day we will all get over the fact that just because parents adhered to a religious philosophy, so will all their progeny be forever more.. No sightings of Obama attending a mosque, no photos of him reading the Koran, praying to Mecca, or observing Islamic holidays with his family. There is no evidence that Barack Obama has ever evinced a belief in, or commitment to, any other religion than Christianity. So please show us the FACT.

      themba.khumalo.520 - 2013-01-05 01:36

      Obama is NOT a Muslim, you imbecile, and even if he was, he is a much better president than that Christian fundamentalist Bush.

      karen.botha.98 - 2013-01-05 07:36

      Legohead - how apt? Bet nothing is built in that head - just 20 or so loose pieces floating around in a vacuum waiting for the next conspiracy to latch onto. Mr Obama is not Muslim he is Christian. It shouldn't matter what he is. What matters is who he is. You make Muslim people out to be insidious and evil. This is not true! We are not threatened by Islam, we are however under threat by global warming and religious fanaticism of any kind!

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:40

      Ag please, Barak Obama is NOT a muslim! Get your facts straight first before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.

  • carldecarvalho - 2013-01-04 22:55

    Hopefully one day people will free themselves from this mind virus that is religion. But then again , one day pigs may fly too

  • herman.letlalo - 2013-01-04 22:57

    and you are busy complaining about the ANC

      cameronrh1 - 2013-01-04 23:00

      Yes South Africans are complaining because they have to deal with the ANC, not so much the oppresion of sharia just yet.

      carryn.whittaker - 2013-01-04 23:04

      That's because the Saudis aren't stuffing up this country the Anc is. LMAO!

      lacrimose.wolf - 2013-01-04 23:09

      We'll complain against any and all human rights abuses, discrimination and downright rubbish ideas. We walked a very long hard road for our Bill of Rights and Constitution. Neither are transient - they're here to stay.

  • raymond.mcnelly - 2013-01-04 23:16

    Wow! You just got to LOVE Islam!

      assa.vanderschaff - 2013-01-05 05:13

      Yes all you men we Muslim women we love our Islam and we will adhere to the Shariah or rather the law of Allah SWT pertaining the the veil as well as the separating of the genders.This is our Allahs law and not the Arabic clerics law but Allahs command Allaa hu Akbar Allah you are great

      lionel.defrontignac - 2013-01-05 06:23

      All religious (especially those of the Abrahamic faiths) people should be sent to the so-called holy land, where they can beat the crap out of each other, impose their doctrines on each other, and leave the rest of us in peace.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:41

      @ assa - that is so sad, you don't even know your own religion. "Allah's law" as you name it, does NOT say a woman must cover her face!

      joe.soapie.73 - 2013-01-05 10:53

      Assa: Please quote the verses in the Qu'ran that specifically mentions you must cover your face (and I mean a verse like "a woman must cover her face", not "she must be veiled" but "veiled" can be interpreted in many different ways). I'm starting to wonder if Islamics know as little about their own religion as the Christians do theirs. Qur'an (33:59) = Doesn't count. A cloak is not a veil. Qur'an (24:31) = There is no mention of a veil, there is mention of the Hijab though but that doesn't cover the face. In addition, this particular verse clearly states: "And say to believing women.." so non-believing Arabic women don't have to abide by Islam law. Interesting. From the Hadith: Abu Dawud (32:4092) - The Apostle of Allah... said: "O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands"

      raymond.mcnelly - 2013-01-05 11:03

      As I read the posts I notice that there's a lot of posts referring to how Islam's being 'twisted' by some Muslims and so on. I'm sorry but that is a lie. I can read, and I have read the Quaran and some of the Hadith. The 'moderate' Muslims are the ones not following the instructions given by the Quaran. I can quote you chapter and verse from the Quaran that clearly mandates Muslims to subjugate non-believers. The hatred towards Jews and Christians in ingrained in Islam.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 12:16

      @ raymond.mcnelly - very true, all three Abrahamic religions are full of hate, intolerance, bigotry, misogyny and so forth. Christianity and Islam both call on subjugating the "unbeliever". Christianity however has become mild in general, and strictly speaking, do not follow the tennets of their faith anymore, whereas Islam is still mostly conservative and follow what their qur'an says. The point however is, that the face-veil of women are NOT prescribed in the qur'an nor in the hadiths. Muslim clerics in countries such as Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia use verses that specify that women must "dress modestly" and twist them to support their own cultural practices of veiling women. Just as earlier christian clergy used verses such as "women keep your silence" to suppress women and even declare them "soulless". As I said above, religion have always been used to justify inhumane acts.

      raymond.mcnelly - 2013-01-05 18:00

      No Umlilo-HanifManjoo you don'nt get it. Islam actually mandates it's followers to go out into the world and kill Jews. The religion premotes murder and killing of non-believers. In fact, you are commanded to do so. The Bible does NOT teach that. Please show me ANY passage in the Bible that instructs Christians to go out and kill, and I mean, give instruction to convert people or kill them?

      raymond.mcnelly - 2013-01-05 18:19

      Lanfear: \\Christianity and Islam both call on subjugating the "unbeliever".\\ I do not agree. Please point me in the right direction. where in the Bible does it instruct people to go out and 'subjugate' the unbeliever. Or maybe I miss understood what you mean by 'subjugate'. If you call preaching the gospel a form of subjugation, then, in your mind it is true. What I'm talking about is the use of force to convert people to a faith, and/or when the unbeliever will not convert, killing him/her. Please show my a verse/verses in the Bible where that is mandated.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-06 10:29

      @ raymond.mcnelly - well, how do you think christianity originally converted the whole of Europe, most of the Americas and parts of Africa? With violence and forced conversion. They even tried invading the old Middle East to bring an end to islam and reconquer the "holy land", but failed in that. But you are right, actually forced conversion is not sanctioned in the bible or the qur'an for that matter. Both these texts said to "spread the word". The qur'an say "Let there be no compulsion in religion." [2:256], and there are numerous verses in the NT that say to leave people alone if they don't want to hear the message. Yet the people in power have used these texts to force their religion on whole nations with war and violence. However, both the bible and the qur'an also state that the unbelievers [or rather apostates] must be killed, although yet again there are discrepancies in both texts regarding punishment. In islam for example there is the "qu'ran vs hadith" situation, where one does not condemn apostacy but the other does. The bible also have verses where it is commanded to stone the unbeliever/apostate [deutronomy 17], yet other verses contradict this and say that unbelievers who refuse the "message" must be left in peace. Nothing is ever simple when religious texts are discussed, but that both these text have a lot of violence and hatred in them [and consider themselves the only "truth"], are unfortunately true.

  • peter.t.viljoen - 2013-01-04 23:41

    For tjat matter you have to wonder why any of the so called Arab states, indeed South Africa are not concerned or condeming you chop.

  • Ebrahim Carim - 2013-01-04 23:50

    let society speak for itself.Go look at rape stats in all these countries.Women wake up.Even though you may not have been physically raped you were raped 1000s times before by men (mentally).Ask any men if he sees a pretty lady what happens to his thoughts and emotions.

      TaniaSandraSteyn - 2013-01-05 00:22

      Ebrahim Carim - that is your lack of mental control. So ugly women don't get raped? 2 year olds, 82 year old don't get raped? Oh, it must have been the tempatation of watching teenagers bathing naked in the river. And then they have to run to the nearest vessel and fill it with their filthy sperm that was meant to create a human soul. You are living in a dream World. There a sex comics for people who like the idea of sleeping with nuns,pregnant women, have and obsession with feet, or multi-sexed people. (to name a few). They are in every society, whether you know about it, or not. I cry for the lack of voice and choice in the Arab society. A man could rape his own daughters and his wife would not be able to tell anyone. Not that SA is better, for all it's fantastic laws. The patriarchal system is an abonimation. It serves only to feed the lusts of men who have no control over their organs. Extreme, but true.

      mohammedsiddique.kadwa - 2013-01-05 00:45

      What a grand feeling, knowing that my wife's beauty can only be enjoyed by me, and me alone. So, do I force her to wear the veil? No, she opted to from her teens, which makes her so much more beautiful in my eyes. She is my precious diamond, no ordinary slave. As for the western woman, her beauty is lost throughout the day, as her society has freed (forced) her to find a job, and flaunt her body in front of men who take pleasure out of just watching them slavishly faking a smile. It's no wonder, by the time she comes home, she can't satisfy her man(not husband), coz she's been fulfilling other mens' sexual appetites by feeding their eyes. Now, there's an angry man, and a tired woman at home, drink down your sorrows, and hope tomorrow gets better. Oh, no! tomorrow's the same! ISLAM will free you from enslaving yourself to the dictates of man, and broaden your vision to the warmth of submission to GOD. Ever ask yourself why so many people are accepting ISLAM? What have you got to loose? S E A R C H for the truth, you will find it!

      lacrimose.wolf - 2013-01-05 01:25

      "free you from enslaving yourself to the dictates of man". How you can fail to see the irony of that hackneyed phrase, is just beyond rational thinking.

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-05 02:37

      @mohammedsiddique.kadwa Yes, it is a grand feeling, I strongly agree. Perhaps it is not surprising to hear of so many Western husbands and wives being so very miserable in their marriages as they are constantly taunted with pornographic images in almost any Western city and not to mention scantily clad women everywhere one looks. Sex even in marriage cannot be that enjoyable when one is constantly bombarded by sensual assaults in even a normal daily environment and this is exactly why 50% of Western marriages end in divorce. Through the endless intermingling of the genders, men and women endlessly compete with each other to the detriment of society as a whole. The natural order of the human race has always been for men to protect women, not compete with them. In this regard, Islam is a beautiful religion and only a short-sighted fool would dare to challenge this culture. Did Jesus Christ Himself not condemn adultery?

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:43

      So you are saying Ebrahim that men as so pathetic and weak that they can't control themselves? Then it is the men that should learn and if they fail to learn, be punished! Hiding away women and oppressing them just so that YOU won't be tempted is just plain WRONG.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:46

      Thank you Umlilo - a muslim that not only knows his religion, but also admit that there are those that twist the teachings of islam for their own culturally backward ideologies. As to the others who say their wife's beauty is theirs alone. You do not own her, nor do you own her beauty. Saying things that she "is no ordinary slave" is appalling! What is she then? Your special little slave? Barbaric!

      nuus.reeder - 2013-01-05 10:33

      Woman are legally raped by men in these radical Islamist countries, men are allowed to do what they like to women. If a man rapes a woman the woman is punished ... its just plain ludicrous and cannot be defended, regardless of what you want to believe. Opposite sexes are meant to be attracted to one another, how on earth would humans procreate if this were not the case? In our world we have freedom to choose whom we want a relationship, it cannot be forced upon us like these radical Muslim countries.

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-06 22:05

      @william.botha.9 So much for women being enslaved, in your perverted world, it is MEN who are the slaves! Do you believe it is perfectly acceptable for a man to spend his life watching porn or washing the dishes while his wife can go around screwing any man she pleases just because she has the right? Where is your Afrikaner thinking, man! This is exactly why no one respects Afrikaners anymore. You have forsaken the Good Lord Almighty and His commands all in the name of a sickening and perverted liberalism. Even in Christian thinking, a wife is in fact a man's PROPERTY and she must submit to him. How can you be so deluded by the ways of the world and the feminist agenda that you would say something so mielie mouthed? A woman with that kind of control over her life would be labelled as one thing and thing only: a WHORE.

      lionel.bradbury - 2013-01-06 23:08

      @Ebrahim & lyal. I am stunned beyond belief. For any human to speak of a woman as property is so far out of line. I am totally flabbergasted!

  • justin.b.whittaker - 2013-01-05 00:36

    Muslims law and the anc...both are moronic

  • andrew.grieveson.92 - 2013-01-05 05:48

    I see no comments from Muslim woman . Wouldn't dare or are not allowed access to the Internet ? Let the woman in your society have their say !! I predict the end of this oppression .

      mohammedsiddique.kadwa - 2013-01-05 08:59

      Duh, read the first comment on this page!

      nasreen.parak.1 - 2013-01-05 11:33

      Yes andrew I am a muslim women. I am educated and I simply love my islamic clothes. I do not wear the veil but I hope to one day. And no I was never abused or oppressed. Is there any questions you would like answered?

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 12:58

      @ nasreen.parak - as long as it is your own choice, there is no problem with it at all. Some of the head scarves look really beautiful, I agree. A muslim woman I know also told me how wonderful and cool the robe is and I concur. The point is choice nasreen. You forget that you live in a country where you have the legally protected choice to wear what you want, as you want. Women in countries such as Saudi do NOT have a choice and are forced by law not only to wear muslim robes and head scarves, but veil their faces. The moment you take away someone's choice, then oppression occurs.

      nasreen.parak.1 - 2013-01-05 13:39

      Yes I understand what you are saying. And I agree 100 percent. There are some men who opress their women, and not allow them to educate themselves. And that is sick. But Islam does not say that. It is some sick man with ego problems. However, speaking from experience all of the women I know who wear the veil did it by choice. And I have been to saudi, and the women there also wear it by choice. Even when there is no men around they choose to keep themselves covered. Its just like a nun. She covers up and the world respects her. But when a muslim women covers up she is oppressed.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 14:00

      @ nasreen - and what about the protests in Saudi from women? Or is that just fake propaganda or something? So every single woman in Saudi choose herself to cover up? It is not enforced at all? Women can travel on their own? Women can study and work and marry whomever they choose? Women can drive themselves around and walk with a bare face in Saudi? You are lying if you say this Nasreen!

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 14:01

      @ nasreen - and just to point out, Roman Catholic nuns do not cover their faces. Never have.

  • sabeer.mahomed.3 - 2013-01-05 06:43

    And yet amidst all your Satanic cries, Islam is still proving to be the fastest growing religion in the west. Makes u wonder huh!

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:50

      Please provide the source of your statistics sabeer.mahomed. Because all the statistics I've seen show exactly that oppposite.

      nasreen.parak.1 - 2013-01-05 13:26

      According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year: Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. In the period 1990-2000, approximately 120.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity. Wikipedia So all you haters please get your fact correct.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 14:03

      @ nasreen - no, islam is the fastest BREEDING religion in the world, and nobody is allowed to convert to another religion on pain of death, or admit that they don't believe, also on pain of death. No birth control, each man with four wives [if he chooses] and breed breed breed. If you do a good ole google search, you will realise that "no religion" is the fastest growing "group" in the world. Perhaps you should contact my FB friends, the "Atheists of Iran". You may get a bit of shock.

      nasreen.parak.1 - 2013-01-06 08:49

      Wow. Such hatred and fear. I provided the proof. Believe it if you want or live in a bubble.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-06 09:09

      @ nasreen - we westernized women who consider ourselves free, will do well to fear islam and sharia law. I do not want to be forced to convert, to worship, to cover up, if islam ever "takes over". You choose freely nasreen, because you live in a country where you can. This is what official statistics have to say: "The fastest growing religion depends on the definition, such as absolute number vs percentage, conversions only or also births, how broadly a religion is defined, and the period and region in question." "Buddhism is recognized as the fastest growing religion in Western societies both in terms of new converts and more so in terms of friends of Buddhism, who seek to study and practice aspects of Buddhism." "Christianity's growth is most prevalent in non-Western countries and the Pentecostalism movement is the fastest growing religion worldwide. The growth of Christianity is most evident in Latin Americ and Africa." Although the 2005 Guinness Book of Records stated that Islam is the fastest growing religion, this report refutes it: "...information available suggests that there is no substantial net gain or loss in the number of Muslims through conversion globally..." "Non-religious groups are the largest gain in terms of absolute numbers. Reuters describes how a study profiling the "no religion" demographic found that the "nones", are the fastest growing category, especially in westernized society and some Asian countries." There you have it.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-06 09:14

      @ nasreen - as with the Atheists of Iran group, which is growing daily, there are substantial numbers that want to break away from Islam, but are forced by law under pain of death in Islamic countries to keep their de-convertion secret. Just the other day a man in Indonesia was sentenced to death [lessened to 20 years imprisonment] because he admitted freely on his FB page that he is an atheist. People want to be free to worship who or what they want nasreen. They don't want to be forced with a death sentence hanging over their heads. With the information age we live in, more and more people are questioning their "religious brainwashing" and want to have the freedom to choose. Besides if Allah is so great and powerful, why does he need people to be forced to worship? [same goes with christian god, which is the same god of course]. But this is a whole new debate and not really relevant to the article.

      stanton.clarke - 2013-01-06 13:17

      Nazreen, Sabeer.....If you were muslim and wanted to marry someone of another faith, the non muslim will have to convert to islam if the marriage is to go ahead. In SA,and I know this as a fact, that is the most common reason for converting to Islam. The convert is changing for love and because of the stress placed on the marriage by the muslim family's insistence to convert, not because of religion. Would you allow your children to marry non muslims?

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-07 03:57

      @Lanfear It's really quite simple: God doesn't give a damn if you disagree with Him. Who are you, you miserable sperm, to question your very creator? As for why He would need agents to carry out His Will, why should He have to prove His existence to the likes of you? It would hardly be a test of faith if He had to destroy your house, now would it? Those agents have proven that they have faith in carrying out His Will (such as a judge administering proper justice) and they shall have their reward in this life and the next. Those with genuine faith and conviction are generally humble and happy people knowing that God Almighty is beyond our feeble human understanding and therefore know that endless searches for the "meaning of life" or the "why am I here?" are vain, selfish and foolish. Those who denounce religion are generally miserable and leading meaningless lives only for the sake of their own fleeting glory. So, if a society is built around faith in the very real God and His Divine Law and the majority of the people appreciate it, why should such a society ever be challenged? It makes sense to simply weed out the few dissidents determined to ruin things for everyone else.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-07 09:50

      @ lyall - oh please, don't spout your prozelytising drivel at me. You cannot even prove to me that any god(s) exist. If you want to cling to bronze age mythology because it makes you feel better, then do so, but leave me and mine alone. I don't need filthy evil religion to be a better person!

  • fidelity.mcoshi - 2013-01-05 07:27

    The Muslim countries not allowing women to be seen or heard, or to work, are letting half their intellectual capital go to waste!

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:50

      Well said! For once I agree with you.

      mohammedsiddique.kadwa - 2013-01-05 08:58

      Not really, we as Muslims just work twice as hard so our women can be treated as queens, all they have to do is spend our money! Why do you think so many western women marry Muslim men- they won't be forced to work, they'll work voluntarily, but not by force.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 09:14

      @ mohammedsiddique.kadwa - women in Saudi are not allowed to work. Treated like a queen? Oh please, I would be ashamed to "looked after", as I am not a child and can look after myself very well. fidelity.mcoshi is completely right! Some of the greatest minds in the world have been and still are, women. To deny them the opportunity to freely learn and share their knowledge, is backwards and a waste. Where are all these western women that marry muslim men? Provide some verifiable statistics please.

      peter.grant.1023611 - 2013-01-05 10:12

      and the better half too if their decisions are anything to go by.

      fidelity.mcoshi - 2013-01-05 10:35

      Muslim men may work as twice as they like, but that doesn't detract from my point that more than half of the intellectual capital is still lost. Non Islamic African countries have over the years learned that some of the contributing factors to the continent's backwardness and underdevelopment is related to the neglect of its women contribution to society, other than bearing children. You empower a woman, you empower a nation!

  • attie.tredoux - 2013-01-05 07:45

    During the middle ages Christians were also intimidated by fanatic clerics who pretended that they had the last say about the manner in which the Word of God must practiced. In the present times there is no place for fanatical religious rites - be it by Christians or by Muslims.

  • abdul.cassiem.9 - 2013-01-05 07:53

    Any one been to Saudi Arabia recently?

  • andrew.mostert.50 - 2013-01-05 07:56

    Anybody who starts his name with "grand" must be an idiot and never listened to, ever.

      mohammed.kamaldien - 2013-01-05 13:43

      All the negative comments are about changing cultures, advancement of humanity, oppressing of women ..... etc. Do any one of you remember the word Religion? Do you know what it means, what it is? Most people calling them Christians are not living the life that has been ordered by God which was lived and teached by Christ. That is why the western world including SA are in such turmoil. Women got their freedom in our country...... but cannot walk alone when its dark, in some places during not even during the day, out of FEAR OF BEING RAPED, MOLESTED, ABDUCTED ....etc. Is this what is called freedom or liberation? I would like you that has never been to Muslim countries or to Saudi Arabia in specific to find out what the crime rate is there. Specifically how many rape, murder and assault cases are there against women and children. There is no such thing as 16 days of activism. There are 365 days of Activism. After that can we determine which countries men are like animals. We are Muslim and still want to live the religion Islam as ordered by God Almighty and lived by Mohammed SAW. We have no right to change our religion to suit anybody or any country. We are only here to please our Lord and he is definitely not a leader of a country or anybody walking this earth. I do not know what is the reason that NEWS 24 reported this. I believe Saudi Arabia's constitution is based on the Quran (the word of God Almighty) and the Sunnah (the commands/life of Mohammed SAW) and will remain like that. If you understand what is written on he National Flag of Saudi Arabia you will understand. This report is very provocative as far as tolerance between religions is concerned.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-07 12:25

      @ mohammed.kamaldien - you said: "that is why the western world including SA are in such turmoil". Do you really claim that the middle-east and other islamic states are NOT in turmoil? Really? Have you read any international news recently? That is the point, most muslims actually DON'T live the islamic life as the prophet himself stipulated. Why do you think there is a call to muslims to return to the islam of Muhammed? It is not law in Saudi that a woman should wear the niqab, only the hijab. As that is how it is said in the qur'an, and the hadiths. None say that a woman must cover her face. These muftis and mullash are twisting islamic teachings for their own agendas. When has any of the three Abrahamic religions [christianity, islam, judaism], EVER been tolerant? Throughout their history these religions have tried to force themselves on all others.

  • Ebrahim Carim - 2013-01-05 08:05

    No I was never schooled in an alqaeda compound.We are peace lovers.For us and society at large. Born and bred in S.A.I only think for myself I dont swallow bovine manure thats dished out to me.By the way grand is nobodys name .Neither is Mufti if you want to learn what this means ask someone that knows.

  • phae.rayden - 2013-01-05 08:17

    Does this not imply Muslim men are uncontrollable animals, and can't be trusted to think and behave like civilised humans? Do they not find it insulting? As for the women, I fear the only way this is going to change is if they find their power and stand up for themselves from within their religion, and I don't think this will be easy given the blind following of this religion.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:52

      EXACTLY phae.rayden! Exactly. Some Saudi women are beginning to stand up for themselves and demand equality, that is why King Abdullah started some reforms, due to pressure from protests. I would be ashamed to be a muslim man, who is such an uncontrolled barbaric that he can't be trusted to look at a woman's face.

      fort.horseman.7 - 2013-01-05 21:33

      @Phae rayden trust me, we do not follow the Religion of Islam blindly but with a devoted conviction.And we are not only muslims,we are also christians and jews since we believe in The Prnphets Moses pbuh and Jesus pbuh.Its you who may have lost your way and become blinded and decieved by falsehood,by abandoning your religion.

  • rodney.chenge - 2013-01-05 08:33

    I think we should respect each other's culture and beliefs. If you have been to Dubai, you will learn the importance of such. I am an african christian, i pay lobola and go through all traditional processes. I dnt think less of my friends of western origins who just get married. We must be careful of the hate that cn be picked up from some of our comments. My western friends dnt even have a culture or traditions. They lost them a while back. Pls respect those who try to maintain their own. Dnt hate.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:57

      You are right of course, we should respect each other. But there comes a time when you cannot hide atrocities behind "culture" or "religion". Besides, Dubai is far more modern and tolerant than Saudi Arabi is. A lot of "Western" people these days have a culture of tolerance, of freedom of association and while we respect our old traditions, many of us have moved beyond the need for them. Besides, culture must change and grow, otherwise it will stagnate and eventually die. The world is changing, and has changed a lot in recent decades. The question one must ask is, will your culture stagnate and hold back the progress of your people? Or will you and your culture grow and enhance the progress of your people. We are creatures that learn and adapt and change after all. Throughout history this has been the case.

      fidelity.mcoshi - 2013-01-05 10:38

      "My western friends dnt even have a culture or traditions." I've learned long ago how fallible this notion is. Culture or tradition don't necessary mean performing certain rituals or beating drums. Westerners do have culture, and it's learning and education!

  • bhingisankore.tafari - 2013-01-05 08:34

    The ullema and saud wahabi kingdom are only victorious in their opressive wicked establishment because of petrodollars pumped in by the owners of democracy....america and g8 countries....shame those woman are not allowed to have a drivers licence....islam is repeating all the dirty tricks of white says lots of wicked things about woman.......muhamad saw it fitting to marry a vulnurable does his follwers

      rodney.chenge - 2013-01-05 08:39

      R u in a perfect state? The crime and violence statistics in SA resemble a country under seige. Really..are you going to judge? You are in utopia right. The rainbow nation.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 08:58

      @ rodney.chenge - there is no such things as utopia. Because we have plenty of problems in South Africa, does not mean we cannot point out and speak out against oppression in other countries.

  • clifford.clifford.984 - 2013-01-05 09:24

    It appears mental illness is still rife in Saudi Arabia

      afzal.ismail.50 - 2013-01-05 09:49

      Firstly, consider this logic: a woman who chooses to dress modestly and serve food to her husband and children in the comfort of her home is oppressed, but she becomes liberated when she flaunts her body for her boss, passengers on a plane or clients at a retaurant, notwithstanding the never ending advances. Interesting! 2. The ancients debated whether a woman has a soul or not. The west has reached their conclusion. Woman are only body, hence their physical beauty is utilised to sell every conceivable commodity in the market 3. If western women are so equal to men, why do women adopt their husband's surname, by law?

      sabeer.mahomed.3 - 2013-01-05 10:02

      Yes Clifford, no wonder their crime rate is spiralin out of control, their unemployment rate is sky rocketing, their rape stats is off the roof etc etc its all because of their mental illness.

      peter.grant.1023611 - 2013-01-05 10:30

      @afzal There is no law in any western nation that I am aware of that forces a woman to change her surname to that of her husband. It is merely tradition. (probably for the reason that its more convenient) Many woman who are in business or famous before getting married retain their maiden surnames as this makes sound business sense but its not the law.

      fidelity.mcoshi - 2013-01-05 10:45

      "If western women are so equal to men, why do women adopt their husband's surname, by law?" That's tradition, which might have been very relevant in the past but no more, as many women today choose to include their maiden surnames as well, and no women have been stoned because of that. That's the difference, being flexible!

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 12:05

      @ afzal.ismail - your comment just shows how completely ignorant you are of any other ways but your own. I do not have to adopt my husband's surname if I so choose. In many modern marriages the husband and wife both have a double surname, or even husbands adopting wives' surnames. Or they just both keep their own. That is the point afzal.ismail and others who think like you! FREEDOM OF CHOICE! That is the point. If I want to flaunt my body that is MY choice, not yours. If I want to veil my face, it must be MY choice, not yours. LOL @ your point 2. You really are ignorant man. Thanks fidelity.mcoshi, you are spot on. Flexibility, tolerance and the freedom of choice.

  • afzal.ismail.50 - 2013-01-05 11:18

    History teaches us that indigenous people were referred to as “naked savages” - both derogatory words – by western colonizers. Today these very same “enlightened” and “progressive” colonizers are promoting nudity. This is not a paradox. It is a clear indication of their moral and spiritual decline.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 12:08

      Yes, and history of slavery teaches us that Islam enslaved some 9 million more Africans than the western colonisers ever did! And started the derogatroy K word as well. Tell me afzal, why are your morals only concerned with sex and nudity? What about human rights, animal rights, the freedom of speech, freedom of choice, freedom of association, and so forth? There are a lot more important things than a nude body! The naked body is beautiful, why should it be hidden? Because you cannot control yourself? You are clearly unable to be a man witout oppressing a woman.

  • afzal.ismail.50 - 2013-01-05 11:50

    I am amazed at those who regard the Islamic system of stoning for adultery to be harsh, when stoning to death has been ordered by the Bible. "If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death." - Deuteronomy 22:13-21 This is perhaps why so many in the world fear Islam. Islam has stuck firm to its divine law while other religions have disregarded divine law.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 12:01

      Well, perhaps you should consider that not everyone who isn't muslim are christian. It is not the only two religions or belief systems in the world you know!

      lionel.defrontignac - 2013-01-06 06:25

      Of course, if someone nowadays claimed that god was talking to him, he'd be collected by some guys in white coats. You religious types are delusional. It is arrogant of humans to claim that they are on this tiny speck in the universe because of some imaginary entity.

  • afzal.ismail.50 - 2013-01-05 12:27

    Dear LanfearM I posted my comments without being personal or abusive. I tried to address the issue at hand without emotion. In the interests of maturity and a respectful discussion would it be too much to ask of you to do the same?

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 12:50

      No, not really since for me as a woman it is an emotional subject. When people start calling their wives, "not an ordinary slave" and claim to "own her beauty", that raises my hackles as far they can go. I do apologise if I upset you, yet I also see that you do not answer a single question I posed. And yes Faizal, it IS a choice. You clearly do not understand the concept of freedom of choice.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 13:17

      Yes Faizal I have. I shared an office with one for two years. She, in a country where we can legally choose, have chosen to do so only after the birth of her first child. As I said, I have no problem with women wearing veils and scarves and whatnot, so long as they chose themselves to do so. In islamic countries such as Saudi, it is NOT a choice and you know it.

      Faizal - 2013-01-05 16:16

      Lanfear.all over the world laws are enforced ,its normal .I am forced by islamic law to marry instead of fornicating or commiting adultry.I get fined for speeding etc.if they choose to enforce something they are free to do may find something reprehensible but I as a muslim find it appropriate.just like my view on premarital sex is unlike yours ,I will never allow my kids a choice regarding it but you will, as you don't have a problem with it.I am ignorant of what punishment the saudis have prescribed for not wearing the hijaab .if you know please enlighten me.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 17:43

      Well, hijab is only required for Muslim women of course, and I know in Iran a woman can get 75 lashes if she doesn't wear it. The haram police are always out and about. In Saudi it differs. It can be anything from stigmitisation, to lashing, and even beheading. Only the abaya and hijab is required by law, not the niqab. The problem is that gangs of haram "police" assault women physically who don't wear it, even though it is not required by law. As Queen Rania of Jordan said: "The hijab is a choice — a woman wears hijab because she believes in it and she has the right to wear it, not because she is forced to." In January 2012, Saudi female journalist, Nadin Al-Badir, related horrific stories of what these haram gangs get up to. For instance, they forced 15 girls back into a burning school where they died, because they weren't wearing the hijab when they ran into the street. Unfortunately it seems that the Saudi government has given these thugs [most of them reformed convicts] free reign to do as they please. But my gripe is that the Saudi government does nothing to stop them, and clerics such as the one in the article above encourages it. According to all tradition and law in Islam, it is a choice of women, not to be enforced by violence and law. In fact, the niqab is actually rare outside strict Sharia countries and the irony is that modern extremists are introducing it.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 17:47

      You see Faizal, we have different ideas about what is wrong, for example pre-marital sex. I don't think it is wrong. You do think it is wrong. Perhaps we should rather learn more about each other and respect each other's views, rather than lash out at those that think differently from ourselves and condemn them as "prostitutes" or "abusers", and so forth. I will always however feel that women should have the choice to veil or not, and that it should never be enforced. Enforcing it with violence, law(s) and even indoctrination, is wrong and is in fact, anti-Islamic from all I've read about Islam.

      Faizal - 2013-01-05 18:09

      Lanfear.I have been many times to mecca and have never witnessed ever in the holy mosques any lashing etc.of women who did not don their niqaab.I have also met nurses that lived in jeddah and never heard of such atrocities. Is there anybody on n24 that spent time there that can enlighten us further on this issue .I really don't trust the media and the false info they spew out.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 18:26

      Faizal, you said women "who did not don their niqab". What about the hijab? And are you implying that the Saudi woman is lying about what happenend? I do agree that the media frequently misinforms and propagates, yet it is an easy matter to look up the incidents and see if there is any truth to it. These haram "thugs" also seem to be quite a new thing from what I've read...

  • sikender.raidan - 2013-01-05 13:10

    The Only intelligent comment I see is that of Karen Botha. Well put Karen

  • nasreen.parak.1 - 2013-01-05 13:33

    According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year: Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. In the period 1990-2000, approximately 120.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity Wikipedia. Islam being the fastest growing religion shows just how amazing it is for all those who actually discover ther truth. Muslim women are not oppressed. We choose not walk around exposing our bodies for everyone to stare. We have a choice if we want to work or if we don't. We are not obligated. And muslim women were given rights 1400 years ago when no other nation gave their women rights.

      Faizal - 2013-01-05 16:22

      I think you need to have a cup of coffee with lanfear .she is frustrating herself trying to prove that you are a poor oppressed soul.

      nasreen.parak.1 - 2013-01-05 16:51

      That is actually funny. I can't help but feel sorry her.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 17:51

      Oh don't feel sorry for me at all! As long as a woman freely chooses to wear the hijab or even the niqab, I really don't think she is oppressed, nor do I think all Muslim women are oppressed. That is as ridiculous as saying all western women are prostitutes. Again Faizal, don't put words in my mouth. I in fact commented to nasreen above that I have no problem with it, and don't think it is oppression, so long as it is a free choice. But nasreen, as I've said above too, statistics show that "no religion" is actually the fastest growing of all. And as I invited you, go look up the Atheists of Iran for example, who are a growing section of society that refuse to be forced by law what to believe. Without our freedom to choose in this world, what are we? Slaves and property with only those in power having any will of their own.

  • flysouth - 2013-01-05 13:47

    Time to move on and get out of the Middle Ages!

      afzal.ismail.50 - 2013-01-05 20:38

      From the Middle Ages into the Dark Ages thanks to the wonderful western civilisation that is morally bankrupt!

      GordonTheFreeman - 2013-01-06 10:08

      Stoning people is not morally better.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-06 11:54

      @ afzal.ismail - I beg to differ! We humans are becoming MORE moral than ever before. For the first time in history we as a species have human rights, animals rights, environmental protection, freedom of speech, freedom of choice. For the first time in history, world-wide people are starting to *care* about their fellow human beings, people are condemning violence, war, prejudice and intolerance. Yes yes, I know it still happens a lot, but for the first time we have laws for these, humans are *aware*. We are becoming a single world, and must act as a single species, otherwise we will cause our own destruction. I am sure you don't agree with me on many of these, since religious people, especially christians and muslims, seem obsessed with sex when it comes to morality, but you do not think widely enough afzal. The "global village" is not just a cliché anymore.

  • ft.burhaak - 2013-01-05 14:22

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating.Thats why you never hear of gang rapes and rape in Saudi Arabia.Since they live by Gods Divine law and not by short sighted man made laws

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 15:09

      Yah right. Of course you don't hear about rape in Saudi. The girl is killed by her family and the boy's family pays a sum of money to the girl's family. It is never reported there. If you don't believe me, google "Saudi gang rape", and you may get a surprise.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 15:17

      Btw, all laws are man-made.

      ft.burhaak - 2013-01-05 16:43

      @Lanfear forgive me but i can only comment on facts,not illusions,propaganda,nor fallacies.I hope that you can base your accusations on merit and not lies.And the man made laws that you so religious and exclusively confide in, and commit to have not yielded any deterrent nor resolve to the astronomical rape,murder,incest and child molestation statistics taking place on a daily basis.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 18:14

      @ ft.burhaak - so tell me, why is it that in the most secular and non-religious countries in the world, they have the lowest crime rates, all crime including rape? Look up the "Qatif girl" rape case for example. A simple google search of "rape in saudi" will bring up loads of rape cases. We just don't hear about it here in SA, just like they most probably don't hear about our rape cases over there. Or look up the Ethopian girls' story of sex slavery in Saudi. Rape is the product of the general disrespect and disregard for women. It is because women are not seen as equals, are not seen as equal human beings, and not respected. They are seen as property there for the man's enjoyment, which is most often the incitement for rape. Girls are "punished" with rape. It is the one instance where a man can still show his dominance of a woman, by raping her. Rape after all, has little do with sex and everything to do with power over the woman. In 2009 for example, a Saudi court sentenced a woman with 100 lashes for being raped. Is that fair? Is that right? How can you justify punishing the victim?! You are sadly mistaken if you think rape is rare in countries such as Saudi and Iran. It happens just as often as in many other countries. Often however, charges are not pressed and repatriation is paid. Our SA society is much the same in that it doesn't respect women, or see women as equal humans. This breeds a culture of contempt for women which invites rape and abuse.

      ft.burhaak - 2013-01-05 18:28

      @Lanfear,you are repetitive and saying much about nothing.You also seem to be a specialist at finding needles in a haystack which i am even wearing of believing.Since you so efficient in conjuring up flaws in Saudis and Islamic laws,please use your critical savvy to come up with some effective laws derived from your culture to resolve the rape epidemic of old ladies ,women,and babies in this country!

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 18:39

      No burhaak, you just refuse to believe that your wonderful Saudi actually have plenty of rape cases. I never said our laws are perfect, nor do they deter crime although the story of SA crime is far bigger than just laws. If you truly read and understood my comment, you will realise what I consider the greatest reason for rape, and that is a cultural mindset that must change, not a matter of law. It will of course help in our sorry country, if rapes are not only reported but also convicted. When you hear stories about police turning girls away, laughing, because they were raped, it is not the laws that are faulty but the cultural perception of rape! Needles in a haystack? So what do you expect, a miles long list of all the rape cases in Saudi in the last 10 years? Sorry mate, you can go research that yourself. You made the claim that Saudi have no rape cases because they uphold some kind of "divine" law. I refute your claim, for there are indeed a lot of rape cases there. Not like we have in SA, which has the highest rape rate in the world, but still enough to be worrying. Look to the reason for the disrespect of women. By many in our country, women are perceived as the property of men, to do with as they wish. If that does not incite disrespect and contempt of women, which leads to rape and abuse, then tell me what does lead to rape? Islamic law with regards to punishment for a convicted rapist is not at fault. Islamic law punishing the victim is wrong.

      ft.burhaak - 2013-01-05 18:57

      @Lanfear.I see your point.But it doesnt mean that if there is Islamic law itl automatically create a utopian society,and it doesnt necessary mean that if you are a muslim,that you are a saint.All human beings are fiiled with vices of some kind. The quality and integrity of the law and its castodians makes it a useless or credible deterrent accordingly.I can bet my life that if a person violates a woman or child in a country with Sharia Law he is as good as dead,unlike some countries who are more laxed about such crimes.

  • rollingstone.kanyane - 2013-01-05 14:52

    @Faizal youth have spoken a mouthful out of 100 only 2% agree with you this shows how the mind of humans has been brain washed and infiltrated by the inhuman and evil western culture

      LanfearM - 2013-01-05 15:18

      ROFLMAO! Inhumane? Western culture? Yah right. Where do you think things like human rights began? Btw, why do you call yourself rollingstone if you hate the "evil West" so much?

  • peasant.mcpoor - 2013-01-05 16:00

    The only reason that crime, rape,STD',excitement etc is lower in Saudi is because if you breath wrong you may be stoned or have your head chopped public!

      Faizal - 2013-01-05 16:37

      Idiot !go have an enema because u full of really are an ignorant fart!

  • mocking.bird.3517 - 2013-01-05 16:49

    Western practises are demonizing our culture into accepting immoral things which we're now viewing as normal

      lionel.defrontignac - 2013-01-06 06:37

      Backward thinking makes one afraid of enlightenment - let's go back to the days of the Inquisition, where guys like Galileo were threatened with death for their scientific views, such as the one that the earth revolved around the sun. You probably believe the moon landings were fake.

  • jenny.nel.100 - 2013-01-05 18:12

    It boggles the mind that this Neanderthal state of mind still exists in 2013. Men with serious inferiority issues are the only type that will consider it acceptable to keep women subservient. Real men encourage their women to achieve their potential.

      afzal.ismail.50 - 2013-01-05 20:35

      Women who conceal their physical beauty are not subservient. Instead, women who are enticed into abandoning their natural home-making roles in order to oil the machinery of a materialistic society are oppressed. Women who are paid by capitalists to display their figures on magazine covers are oppressed. Women whose bodies are used to sell truck tyres and furniture are oppressed. Women who suffer from anorexia, anxiety, mental exhaustion, depression and other mental illnesses because they attempt to compete with – instead of compliment – men are oppressed. Women who are forced to supplement the family income are oppressed.

      lionel.defrontignac - 2013-01-06 06:38

      I agree; it's also those types who like to drive Hummers!

      Faizal - 2013-01-06 09:02

      And what is that potential that men encourage you to achieve?

      GordonTheFreeman - 2013-01-06 10:11

      natural home-making roles Wow, how far backwards are these people?

      LanfearM - 2013-01-06 11:29

      @ afzal.ismail - you type on a computer because a woman invented the compiler [that translated language into computer code], and developed COBAL, the original programming language. I am not saying a man couldn't or wouldn't have, eventually, but it was Grace Hopper who did it. A'ishah herself was involved in politics, education, councelling and even led a battle. She was also a big advocate of education, for women and men both. Is her legend [and truths] not the epitome of a great muslim woman? She is reverred by many muslims [though not all]. There are thousands more examples of such women. I do not demean myself by making my own choices. I know I have hammered on choice, but that is the fundamental difference we have. You fail to notice that women in our culture(s) have a CHOICE if they want to expose their bodies and be paid for it, have a choice whether they want to work or not. We make a choice and face the consequences. I have several friends who are "home makers" and I have several friends who have careers [some with children some not]. You are also wrong if you think no Muslim women ever feel anxiety, or depression, etc. As to forcing women to work, well dear afzal, that happens in muslim countries too. Except with us, a woman cannot legally be forced to what her husband/father/guardian wants, only psychologically. Please rememeber also that these are examples, not absolutes! I know not everyone is the same, in any society.

  • Faizal - 2013-01-05 19:49

    Lanfear.tks for an interesting discussion.I'm out of here!

      LanfearM - 2013-01-06 08:49

      Thx Faizal, it was interesting talking to you. Very few Muslims that I've met on here are willing to discuss and debate...

      Faizal - 2013-01-06 09:05

      Chucks!I'm back

  • fort.horseman.7 - 2013-01-05 20:23

    Many instigated injustices confined to the Middle East are blamed on the Religion of Islam.What religion would people like to blame for the atrocities,brutallity,oppression and injustices commited because of racism in South Africa?

      lionel.defrontignac - 2013-01-06 06:40

      Strangely enough, Christianity: let's not forget the Arabic word for infidel, which the British imported for use here. The Afrikaner Nationalists used the Bible to justify Apartheid.

  • phae.rayden - 2013-01-05 22:08

    Thanks Lanfear, that was awesome.

  • vernon.samuel.7 - 2013-01-06 06:48

    Sure, let's change the ways of life of all of those countries that are different to us. So that they can become more like South Africa? Let's bring their crime levels down to our levels of almost 0%. Let's bring their education levels up to our world-class pass rates. Let's teach them about eradicating poverty and creating jobs for all. Those that live in glass houses do tend to be the loudest when criticising others that they do not understand. If Saudi women have a problem with this culture, then let them say so and we can support them. If they are happy, then we should shut the hell up and worry about our own problems.

      afzal.ismail.50 - 2013-01-06 08:49

      Extremely well said!

      fidelity.mcoshi - 2013-01-06 09:12

      So an article about Saudi Arabia, on a South Africa news site, should not be commented on by South Africa. South Africans should be commenting on SA issues only. Pathetic!

      afzal.ismail.50 - 2013-01-06 09:21

      Dear Fidelity.msoshi The point is that those who are innundated with problems of their own and have failed to set a model to be followed by others should not attempt to escape their misery by criticising others.

      GordonTheFreeman - 2013-01-06 10:13

      Vernon, what if they are so threatened that they cannot speak up on fear of death?

      vernon.samuel.7 - 2013-01-06 11:04

      Highly unlikely Gordon. Millions of women and they cannot speak up? In an age of the internet! Look at the Arab uprising in North Africa. If people are that suppressed, they will speak out. Journalists will find scoops. CNN or BBC will definitely find out. Should that day come there should be mass uprisings against the abuse. Until then, we are merely being guided by our prejudices and possible hatred of certain sects.

      afzal.ismail.50 - 2013-01-06 11:07

      Dear GordonTheFreeman What if they are so happy that they have nothing to complain about?

      LanfearM - 2013-01-06 11:55

      @ afzal.ismail - if you believe what you just wrote, then you are truly naive, not to mention ignorant. Sorry if that insults you but with a comment like that you invite insult.

      GordonTheFreeman - 2013-01-06 12:36

      If you were raised from childhood not to expect a say in your day to day affairs, you are not going to question what is happening.

      vernon.samuel.7 - 2013-01-06 15:03

      That argument would have been relevant in the 80's and perhaps the 90's. With the world being so open now and the advent of the internet, CNN, online media, social sites such as facebook, that argument is barely relevant anymore. Especially in a technologically advanced country such as Saudi Arabia. People are much more aware and educated than before. My concern is that people see a story or an opinion and jump the bandwagon. Before you know it, the whole world is anti-Saudi. No one checks the facts really. Until Saudi women come forward and state that they are being abused or side-lined, I will try not to be swayed by western propaganda.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-07 10:22

      @ vernon.samuel - some Saudi women HAVE come forward and stated that they want more equality, the right to vote, the right to drive, and so forth. There were several protests last year, which is one of the reasons that King Abdullah wants to make changes, and those changes are opposed by the mullahs. They want to continue oppressing women against their will. This is not just about veiling, it is about allowing a woman to make her own life choices.

  • calvin.eighteeseex - 2013-01-06 09:00

    If this was Africa the News24 anti African would be buzzing with comments like TIA Only in Africa African Way etc. I'm not for muslim religion but the way they keep their way is tops,I hope we learn and walk in footsteps of our Lord and not by flesh

  • thembinkosi.jozie - 2013-01-06 09:35

    What happened to the Arab Spring? Just when I thought they got rid of dictators it looks like there are still more

      LanfearM - 2013-01-06 10:32

      Well, the Arab Spring was orchestrated by the Muslim Brotherhood, who can be quite extreme...

  • Faizal - 2013-01-06 12:34 base your argumnet totally on freedom of there a limit where this freedom is stopped?if a person wants to commit suicide does this freedom to choose life or death rest in the suicidal person?surely you have to have some criterion where you can say that your freedom ends here.we have limits set and we chose these limits by accepting islam and following the footsteps of aisha god be pleased with her . Have you set your limits?

      phae.rayden - 2013-01-07 08:25

      The choice to live or die rests solely in my own hands, it has nothing to do with anyone else. My freedom ends no-where when it involves my decisions for me. If it starts to control/encroach on other peoples lives in anyway, that's when it becomes a problem. Your belief is a case in point, someone else has set your limits and you accept them without question. No thanks, I like to think about what and why I have to do things others propose, its called freedom of choice.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-07 10:20

      Of course the choice of suicide, or euthanasia for that matter, lies completely in my own hands! My life is in my hands, nobody else's. If you dispute that, then I ask you, have you ever used any medicine when ill in your life? Have any of your family or friends? That too is interfering with the "natural" process of living and dying. Yes, of course there is an end to choice, where you run into the law. Decent, democratic laws that respect human rights, animal rights, and freedom of choice [i.e. I can make my own life choices including, marriage, kids, career, clothes, religion, sexuality, suicide or not, who and what I associate with, and so many more!]. Of course I have my limits. Why do you think because I don't adhere to a religion, that I have no limits and no morals? Is the only reason you don't walk out of your house and kill and rape, because the qur'an says you shouldn't?! That is scary Faizal, that only a flimsy belief system stops people from being immoral. I have a very strong morality, especially when it comes to harming people and animals. Agreed phae.rayden, I will not allow others to choose my morality for me. It is fine Faizal, for you to believe how and what you want, and allow yourself to be limited by islam. Yet it is not fine when you want to enforce that on others, including your own. Let them make their choices too, islam or something else if that suits them. Why are religious people so frightened of letting others choose for themselves?

  • raymond.mcnelly - 2013-01-06 14:45

    Lanfear: No, I do not agree. Falling back on the old Crusade excuse to justify the statement that Christianity promotes violence is a weak argument. The Crusades was initiated by the Roman Church to stop the advancing Islamic armies. The Muslims where defeated in Europe and pushed back past Jerusalem. The Islamic forces regrouped and much later drove the Christians back. I do not condone what the Crusades turned into (inquisition, murders and forced conversions) which by the way is NOT preached anywhere in the Bible. Those things where done by evil men to gain power and wealth.

  • raymond.mcnelly - 2013-01-06 14:46

    Lanfear: ... (continuing) Back to the Quaran: you are wrong again. Ever heard of abrogation. The idea if two verses contradict each other that Muhammad’s revelations that came later overrides/substitutes the ones that came before. Thus, the following verses all preach forced conversion and killing, which was ‘revealed’ later: ( I have shortned the verses, but read the full verses for the correct context..) Qur'an (8:39) - “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah)… Translation from the Noble Quran Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book… Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them … Qur'an (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam. Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."

      raymond.mcnelly - 2013-01-06 21:37

      Nice, thumbs down.. No comeback or anything?

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-07 00:57

      The first Muslims would eventually claim complete victory over the unbelieving pagans by these very commandments so this actually only proves the historical accuracy of the Qur'an. They were fighting a very real war here, not putting flowers in their hair and singing around a campfire. Of course this would come across as violent but it further authenticates Islam, not disproves it.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-07 11:11

      @ raymond.mcnelly - well as I showed you, in deutronomy there is also biblical punishment for unbelievers, but no matter. This is not about a fight between the qur'an and the bible. Where did I "fall back" on the Crusades? Did you read my whole comment or was it too long for you? From the very first, during the time of the Roman empire still, christianity forced conversion, long before the crusades. There is a lot of violence in the bible raymond, and a lot of violence has been executed and perpetrated by christians, in the name of christianity. If you deny that, you really do not know a lot about your own religion. Likewise, islam has a bloody and violent history, and does force people to convert, and stay converted. @ lyall.chazen - proving historical events in the qur'an is just like proving historical events in the bible, the talmud, the hindu texts, the buddhist texts, the old pagan religions of the Greco-Romans, the Celts, the Norse, all these religions have historical events in their religious lore. It proves NOTHING. It does NOT prove in any way the existence of a god(s), or authenticates any religion. So your allah is so weak, he must have humans fight wars and kill "unbelievers" and thus force people to worship him? Is that right?

  • starryter.adams - 2013-01-06 22:00

    Wow I find it really amusing how users go against each other by way of comments. Firstly, did any one of you recieve this news from Saudi Arabia's top cleric, I think not, so don't go around hating on each other just because you read an "article". Who told any of you that this article is not biased. What gives any of you the right to put down any religion or belief. You don't need religion to teach you not to degrade a fellow human being. Could all of you just lay off each others beliefs and views and let man live in peace. Sweep your own doorsteps before sweeping others. We live in a country filled with crime and rape, yet I can bet 90% of the people commenting here havn't done squat to help this country against the evils we see everyday and to all of you saying you have read the quraan and various islamic scriptures, please don't fools yourselves, reading does not make you quaified on any subject. Reading all the books in the world about surgery does not make you a surgeon. By all means share your views and opinions, but don't degrade each other and make it personal, all it does is give a damn good impression on the your level of your intellect and don't base your views on what the media tells you because according to the media in other countries, South Africa is a just a crime filled hole where all inhabitants are either murderers or rapists.

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-06 22:37

      Finally someone who knows what he's talking about! How can anyone denounce a whole religion based on the opinion of one cleric and somehow be so blind as to what is happening literally metres away from them? Yes, in Saudi Arabia women may not walk around without the company of a man but can any woman walk the streets of Durban on her own after dark? Even if you try to take a pleasant stroll with your wife, there is a good chance five men will hold you down at gun point and force you to watch your wife be gangraped. And you mean to tell me we are more civilised than Saudi Arabia? Oh, don't even use the pathetic excuses like "only the blacks do that, bla bla bla" or "Apartheid is to blame for their actions, bla bla bla". South African society in general is to blame as we are completely morally bankrupt. Why does it not occur to any of you "enlightened liberal thinkers" that this is only the legacy of doing away with any proper standards of religion or human decency? I'd rather have women in hijab any day!

      raymond.mcnelly - 2013-01-06 23:29

      Well, just read my post above. I denounce en entire religion based on what it teaches in its own 'holy' book.

      lyall.chazen - 2013-01-07 00:48

      @raymond.mcnelly Then you may as well denounce Christianity too as the Bible is definitely far more violent than anything in the Qur'an. Your argument is a pretty shallow one. You're like an atheist trying to denounce Christianity by deliberately choosing verses out of context and thinking it's some startling new revelation. Try to take things in context and meditate on the interpretation and maybe you would understand.

      phae.rayden - 2013-01-07 09:18

      'Saudi Arabia's top cleric has warned against the mixing of the genders'.. Their TOP cleric, and its common knowledge that Islam requires their women to be veiled to protect them and their dignity. As a women I find it insulting and unacceptable that women should be hidden to assist mens retarded ability to control their sex drive, and lack of ability to treat women with dignity when they can see them. No-one should be made responsible for another's bad/weak character. Beliefs are just that, beliefs. Anyone who strives for truth is more than happy, in my case delighted, to have their beliefs challenged. That's when they are able to sift through the quagmire of limiting information they have accepted without question, so I see it as doing them a favour. Absolutely no hatred whatsoever, but tough love for sure. I fight for a future planet filled with respect and empathy for all life forms.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-07 11:13

      LOL, look at the two Abrahamic religions fighting about whose book is the most violent! This is truly funny, and pathetic. Well said phae.rayden, fully agreed.

  • naing.y.thein - 2013-01-07 01:16

    Why are these people so afraid of women?

      afzal.ismail.50 - 2013-01-07 09:37

      They are not afraid of women. Women are treated like gems, to be protected and concealed. They are not treated like stones to be kicked around.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-07 11:16

      @ afzal.ismail - yes treated like gems, in other words, possessions! There is probably more violence in islamic homes against women than in any other religion or culture. Since women are possessions, the men can do with them what they want, and treat them as they want. Or should I post the references to you of women in islamic countries being beaten by their husbands in the street, and nobody even looks twice?

  • womba.wonder - 2013-01-07 05:23

    Very insecure, this religion.

  • tashina.rahman - 2013-01-07 07:13

    funny how people comment without understanding the reason behind saudi rules pertaining to women. Because women are veiled and kept away from men, thats the reason there are no crimes of rape. The status of women in islam is higher than that of a man, thats why we are protected and secure. Our veil protects our modesty and dignity. Maybe south africa could learn a few things from the saudis to protect their women against rape, groping etc. Also take some time to read 1 Corinthians 11, verse 4 to 16. Something of interest to you.

      mike.bundy.73 - 2013-01-07 08:21

      "no crimes of rape"? I don't believe you

      phae.rayden - 2013-01-07 08:36

      As a women I should NEVER have to protect myself by wearing a 'cloak of invisibility'. I expect men to evolve past allowing their sex drive to control them, and learn they can't behave like a dog and have sex when they want it with whom they want it. I think you have crippled your men. I totally respect your choice to veil yourself, but it is my choice to refuse to do so. There are pockets of SA men who are worse than animals, but at least they are in the open and when the tide turns, like what we a witnessing in India, we will have solved a huge problem and not suppressed it.

      LanfearM - 2013-01-07 11:18

      Look at my comments above to "burhaak", then you will see that there is a lot of rape cases in Saudi! Funny how people comment out of their butt without even doing a little bit of research on a subject. Besides, what does it say of the men in this world if women must be kept hidden to prevent rape? Perhaps we should keep men hidden so that they can't get to women to rape them, and only use them to breed children if and when we women want them. Come on guys and gals, what do you say to that, hmm?

      LanfearM - 2013-01-07 11:45

      @ tashina.rahman - if you need to hide your face to maintain your dignitiy, then it is men and their world that is sick and should be changed! Why would a verse about how women must dress according to the bible be of interest to me? I believe no more in the bible than I do in the qur'an. I will NEVER approve of or follow a religion that holds women as inferior to men. The Abrahamic religions are the poison of this world, from them stem most of the violence, hate, bigotry, misogyny and injustice that we humans suffer every day. Oppressors of the worst kind, saying they have god's approval to oppress, cowardly scum. Religiots, weak-minded idiots too lazy to think for themselves.

  • phae.rayden - 2013-01-07 10:20

    Here's a alternative reality. In any public place men should be enforced wear large blinkers and keep their eye's down caste towards feet at all times, failure to do so will result in 100 lashes in the public square. They are they are the problem not us, why should women have to compromise their freedom?

  • LanfearM - 2013-01-08 11:40

    Woohoo! I have just been proven right again about religious fools! Both christians who commented here, and the muslims, side-step and slither away from uncomfortable questions. Funny ole world neh.

  • misjim - 2013-01-10 16:00

    omw guys stop arguing!!!... firstly in Islam (Holy Qu'ran or Hadith) it says nothing about coverage of the face, there is only mention of coverage of the head, and i'm surprised to see so many Christians attacking this matter please open the New Testament to Mathew and read over it, it also states that you should cover your heads... like Muslims do!!! so attacking Islam's covering of the head is also attacking Christians. Both the Bible and the Qu'ran state that you should dress modestly, surely you guys don't see something like a bikini to be modest? I condemn the way these people are saying that women should dress like this but fully support that they should not be mixing with the opposite gender, thats the reason why both the Qu'ran and the Bible state the covering in the first place!!!