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WRAP | Gordhan: It's time for Moyane to take the stand at the State Capture inquiry

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Public Enterprises Minister Pravin Gordhan. Picture by Jeffrey Abrahams
Public Enterprises Minister Pravin Gordhan. Picture by Jeffrey Abrahams
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30 Nov 2020

The hearing is adjourned for the day.

The commission will not have a hearing tomorrow.

30 Nov 2020

Zondo thanks everyone for sitting late. 

He says the cross-examination will have to continue on another date. 

Zondo says an evening session may have to be used. 

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks if he accepts the Ssikhakhane report was not withdrawn yet?

Gordhan says there are critiques to the report.

30 Nov 2020

Gordhan says there are strange unexplainable events - and Moyane must take the stand.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks if Gordhan accepts Moyane received a confession from those who were part of the SARS rogue unit, which forced him to lay the complaint.

If he did not report the confession - whether true or not - he would have been guilty of a crime.

Gordhan says- not necessarily.

30 Nov 2020

Gordhan asks Zondo to note the chronology of events:

Moyane was appointed on 23 September 2014.

Mr Sikhakhane was appointed by Mr Pillay on 3 September 2014.

On 5 November 2014, Sikhakhane presents his report to Moyane.

In December 2014, KPMG is appointed by Moyane to conduct an investigation.

In September / October 2015 is the KPMG report presented to Moyane.

On 15 May 2015 however, before the end of KPMG's investigation, does Moyane lay a complaint at the Brooklyn policy station.

30 Nov 2020

Zondo asks for the cross examination to stop, it has gone on till past 19:30.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks if Gordhan wrote a letter to then-Minister of Finance Trevor Manuel about a unit with intelligence capability within the National Intelligence Agency to combat activities in the illicit economy in February 2007. Gordhan accepts.

30 Nov 2020

The word "large" is removed from Mpofu's line of questioning on the establishment of the so-called "rogue unit" at SARS. Gordhan acknowledges playing a role in the unit's establishment, albeit not a prominent one.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks if Gordhan if the unit existed and whether he played a large part in its formation. Gordhan says the unit did exist, but he played no prominent role in its formation. Gordhan says he engaged with the minister at the time about responding to illicit business activity.

30 Nov 2020

Zondo agrees to allow questioning to continue until 7pm. Mpofu asks Gordhan if he accepts that there is general interest in the activities of the so-called SARS "rogue unit" among South Africans. Gordhan says the real interest was in why there was so much "fake news" around the unit.

30 Nov 2020

Zondo commends Mpofu and Gordhan for not speaking over each other. Mpofu said this should not condone Gordhan's "long answers" adding that the cross examination would go by faster if Gordhan responded appropriately.

30 Nov 2020

Gordhan says these questions are about Treasury - he wants clarity on how this is linked to Moyane.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks Gordhan if Zuma was seeking to perpetrate state capture, why would he appoint Gordhan as finance minister for most of the years that he was president. Gordhan said the finance minister does not have total control of government or state spending or many errant deals that took place during the time could have been stopped otherwise.

30 Nov 2020

Gordhan explains Nene was sacked by Zuma because Treasury refused to finance a nuclear deal.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu points out for seven out of nine years, Gordhan and Nene were entrusted with Treasury - the key component of state capture. 

Gordhan says yes.

Zondo asks for a clarification of the years being referred to.

Gordhan says he was finance minister from 2009 to 2014. Nene was finance minister from 2014 to 2015.

Nene's sacking in favour of ANC backbencher led to a fallout in the markets. Zuma was then forced to reappoint Gordhan. 


30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks if state capture was about capturing the money or the till (treasury)?

Gordhan says invariably it was, but it also includes the facilitating of the takeover. State capture takes many forms.

Mpofu asks if Treasury was the nucleus of the project?

Gordhan says it was a major component to facilitate many things happening. 

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks who some of the "good" people were? He asks if these were him, Nene and Jonas?

Gordhan says it depends on your vantage point. He says yes- these individuals, among others, who took a stand against certain issues. Jonas for example rejected a R600 million bribe from the Guptas.


30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks Gordhan if he has evidence Zuma was part of state capture.

Gordhan says he is not here to give account of his views of the president, but of Moyane.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks Gordhan who mad changes at Cabinet.

Gordhan says according to the Constitution - the president.

Mpofu asks him to confirm if that is Zuma.

Gordhan agrees. 

30 Nov 2020

Gordhan says he was among the democratic activists who spoke against state capture.

Mpofu asks him if he was one of the angels.

Gordhan says no comment. 

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks Gordhan what responsibility he took in this period?

Some government officials were considered devils or angels.

Gordhan says he was a member of the executive, subsequently a member of parliament and again a member of the executive.

He reiterates his knowledge and understanding of state capture in the country, evolved over time.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks Gordhan about the "nine-wasted years" statement he made.

Gordhan says he can't recall using that terminology. But Gordhan says that from 2011 onwards, it is clear that the country lost a lot of value, gravitas of its institutions.

All of that follows the pattern - of state capture. Thee country had a huge opportunity cost. 

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu says that Moyane's behaviour - whether right or wrong - was not a justification of Gordhan to be racist toward him.

Gordhan wants again rejects that he is racist.

30 Nov 2020

Gordhan says the context of the telephone conversation was him correcting Moyane on his behaviour toward a judge. Moyane, a public servant, had not apologised for attacking a judge.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks Gordhan about whether the three signals discussed- shouting at someone, telling them to grow up as if they were a child and calling them cheeky - is archetypal of a racist attitude.

Gordhan says racism works in "odd ways" and perhaps Moyane is racist.

He is the one who defies the authority of a minister, who shows hostility.

He says the archetypes Mpofu is trying to assign to him, can be assigned to Moyane even more so.

30 Nov 2020

Gordhan says it is time for Moyane to come before the commission to give his evidence.

Zondo says Moyane can't testify before Gordhan is finished with his cross examination.

30 Nov 2020

Gordhan says he also has briefings in the evenings.

30 Nov 2020

The commission resumes, it appears the cross-examination will not finish today.

Gordhan says he has a busy two weeks and it will be difficult to return.

Zondo says he may have to slot in Gordhan's evidence in one of the evenings. 

30 Nov 2020

The commission adjourns for five minutes.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu now tells Gordhan not to belittle a person the way he did to Moyane. 

30 Nov 2020

Gordhan once more rejects any suggestion that there is racism involved in his interaction with Moyane.

He says his calling Moyane "cheeky" is about attitude not a persona. 

Gordhan says he was mentoring, guiding Moyane on what is proper in a  relationship between a public servant and the member of the judiciary, this case Judge Dennis Davis.

He says it has nothing to do with racism - he said Moyane was reducing it to racism to malign his character.


30 Nov 2020

Mpofu now asks Gordhan about his god-complex as a minister. 

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks Gordhan if he expects anyone from the commission to take seriously what he says?

Gordhan says state capture is a serious issue. It has damaged so many institutions, in this context, the revenue service is now under collecting revenue.

In terms of what he says should be taken seriously Gordhan says of course.

The commission should connect its own dots to determine whether what he says can be relied on, he adds.

Mpofu says Gordhan's dots are in invisible ink and are impossible to connect. 

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu says Gordhan relied on gossip and rumours.

Gordhan says he answered the question.

He says at the time there were people with information that such meetings happened in coffee shops.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks if Gordhan has evidence of the conspiring with the NPA and Hawks.

Gordhan says no - it was a manner of speaking, he made these remarks during a telephone conversation.

Mpofu says that this is one of Gordhan's wild accusations. 

30 Nov 2020

Gordhan says when properly interrogated, there will be evidence. 

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks Gordhan which connections he meant Moyane was conspiring with between 2015 and 2017.

Gordhan says there was conspiring between Moyane, the NPA and the Hawks. 

30 Nov 2020

Gordhan says there must have been some explanation for Moyane's conduct.

Mpofu suggests this is just insubordination and may have nothing to do with state capture.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks Gordhan what he meant when he said Moyane was defying him was because of Moyane's connections.

Gordhan says he was referring to Moyane's connections to the NPA and the Hawks.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu says the bottom line is Gordhan has no evidence Moyane worked with the Hawks.

Gordhan agrees.

Mpofu also lashes at Gordhan for calling him hard of hearing.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks if Gordhan has evidence that Moyane worked with the hawks every day?

Gordhan said he believes there was collaboration.

Zondo asks if he has personal knowledge?

Gordhan says he has personal knowledge.

Mpofu repeats the questions?

Gordhan says Mpofu is hard of hearing.

Zondo now asks if Gordhan ever saw Moyane working with Hawks?

Gordhan says no.

Zondo asks if he knows someone who has seen Moyane working with the Hawks and who would be able to come before the commission to say so. Gordhan says he will search his memory and let the commission knows if he comes up with a name.

Zondo asks if there is any document that suggests Moyane was working with Hawks everyday.

Gordhan says except for the issues of the charges, no. 

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks that if Gordhan tells a man in his 50s or 60s to grow up, that it can be seen as belittling and even a sign of racism.

Gordhan says he rejects Mpofu's understanding and what he is putting forward.


30 Nov 2020

Mpofu now goes over a phone call between Gordhan and Moyane, where Gordhan tells Moyane to grow up.

Mpofu asks if Gordhan has a right to shout at Moyane and treat him like a child.

Gordhan said it is neither here nor there whether voices were raised.

Gordhan says in the context - he was merely telling Moyane to be responsible, that as a senior public servant he should not be attacking a  judge through his spokesperson.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu now goes over a phone call between Gordhan and Moyane, where Gordhan tells Moyane to grow up.

Mpofu asks if Gordhan has a right to shout at Moyane and treat him like a child.

Gordhan said it is neither here nor there whether voices were raised.

Gordhan says in the context - he was merely telling Moyane to be responsible, that as a senior public servant he should not be attacking a  judge through his spokesperson.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks Gordhan if he agrees that there are some word choices or tones used which can also be considered racist. Like calling someone "cheeky".

Gordhan says none of his behaviour can be equated of racism.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks if Gordhan knows that some of the manifestations of racism is to demonise a person - calling them monkeys and baboons, another form is to insult a person by mocking their hair and lips.

Gordhan agrees he understands both.

Mpofu puts forward another form of racism is to belittle a person - to call them a "boy or a girl" or as Moyane puts it, the Pravin Gordhan type of racism.

Gordhan says he denies any form of racism.


30 Nov 2020

Mpofu says one of the motivations of hostility toward Moyane was racism, on Gordhan's part.

He now asks if Gordhan knows what the manifestations of racist attitudes are in SA.

Gordhan says yes.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks if deputy finance minister Mcebisi Jonas was told to inform Moyane he had been excluded from the conference itself and had to go to Parliament himself, without other colleeagues.

Gordhan says he had no recollection of that.

30 Nov 2020

Mpofu asks if Gordhan remembers not congratulating Moyan for being the first commissioner for collecting R1 trillion in tax revenue.

Gordhan says he does not remember.

Mpofu asks why as finance minister, Gordhan did not invite Moyane to attend a press conference on the budget in 2016.

Gordhan said it is the minister's discretion on who to include at a press conference.

Mpofu asks for Gordhan to confirm he used his discretion to exclude Moyane at the press conference.

Gordhan explains the seating arrangements at the GCIS venue where the budget was held - while treasury officials and the SA Reserve Bank or commissioner can sit at the head table. Gordhan said that Moyane was invited to sit in the audience with other officials.

Gordhan confirms he used his discretion to exclude Moyane from the head table.

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