WRAP | Mahlobo's evidence at Zondo inquiry

Mr. Mahlobo says before wasting any time, from what he reads on this person's affidavit, he wants to to state that he doesn't know who this person is and that he had never met him. #StateCaptureInquiry

— State Capture Commission (@StateCaptureCom) April 9, 2021

Mr. Mahlobo: "I had never signed any settlement agreement" #StateCaptureInquiry

— State Capture Commission (@StateCaptureCom) April 9, 2021

[Reading] Both appeared respectable, middle-aged men. I did not note any other particular features of the men. He has a Zulu surname. However, the other one spoke
in an accent that sounded as if he came from one of the provinces in the north of South Africa rather than a Zulu.

— State Capture Commission (@StateCaptureCom) April 9, 2021

[Reading] The black judge, who was introduced , wore khaki shorts, while the white judge was dressed smart casual, with long khaki pants. The white man was balding and although he was introduced, I cannot recall his name. #StateCaptureInquiry

— State Capture Commission (@StateCaptureCom) April 9, 2021

[Reading] Shortly after my arrival two other men arrived and joined us in the lounge. I believed these men to be the two Judges that the Minister had told me about.
The one man was a black man and the other, a white man. #StateCaptureInquiry

— State Capture Commission (@StateCaptureCom) April 9, 2021

Adv Pretorius Continues to read: I knew that the DG during this period, had come under pressure from Minister Mahlobo for a budget and she had eventually agreed to provide this. #StateCaptureInquiry

— State Capture Commission (@StateCaptureCom) April 9, 2021

Adv Pretorius continues to read " Steven's" : I enjoyed a cordial relationship with Minister Mahlobo and knew that he ran Intelligence operations and paid operatives. #StateCaptureInquiry

— State Capture Commission (@StateCaptureCom) April 9, 2021

Adv Pretorius continues to read " Steven's" : I enjoyed a cordial relationship with Minister Mahlobo and knew that he ran Intelligence operations and paid operatives. #StateCaptureInquiry

— State Capture Commission (@StateCaptureCom) April 9, 2021

Mahlobo denies receiving cash intended for judges as a bribe. He says the statements are "malicious... no directive was ever given". The reality is there was no money delivered to me. This, Mahlobo says, is a ploy to bring the name of the judiciary into disrepute.

"I deny this," he says.

- Kamva Somdyala

Pretorius is reading several witness statements to Mahlobo which involve large amounts of money; the origin of the instruction to retrieve the cash and where to drop it off: at Mahlobo's residence.

Mahlobo simply replies, interchangeably, "No" or "Deny".

- Kamva Somdyala

Mahlobo: There is no money that was delivered to me. 

- Mahlobo adds that there are internal checks and balances if any money is taken from the agency. In other words, there would be a paper trail.

Pretorius: Are you saying there is a procedure that is followed when cash is delivered to your residence?

Mahlobo: I never said that. I am on record that there is no money that was delivered to me. 

- Kamva Somdyala

DCJ Zondo addresses the commission after a short adjournment: "The arrangement that has been made is that we are not going to interrupt Mr Mahlobo's evidence. The hearing of Mngoma's evidence will now be Tuesday evening."

The question of Malusi Gigaba's application for leave to cross-examine Mngoma will be dealt with separately. 

Here is a breakdown of the R130 million in question, which has Mahlobo's signature, dated 16 November 2015:

- R90 million domestic intelligence;

- R20 million for ministers project;

- R20 million for foreign intelligence.

"[The] minister does not approve projects," Mahlobo tells the commission (again) after being shown a document where several projects are headlined 'minister's projects'.

To have projects under the aegis of the minister is "misleading", Mahlobo adds. 

- Kamva Somdyala

Mahlobo says someone - who has not appeared before the commission - claiming that Mahlobo introduced him to judges but he does not remember those judges. The same guy, Mahlobo says, "is part of an effort to implicate judges and bring the profession into disrepute".

"There is a judge they are trying to frame. I have never given an instruction that a judge must be bought," Mahlobo says.

- Kamva Somdyala

Mahlobo turns his attention to witnesses from SSA who have appeared before the commission. "They say I have taken money, yet there is no evidence. No paper trail."

What is their fallback? "No, projects are incomplete", Mahlobo tells the commission. There are people who came here and they have gotten away with murder; politicised this [commission].

"Here, we have political animals."

- Kamva Somdyala

Mahlobo says the country is a "very strategic country" based on location and influence. He adds: "Nobody is immune from being recruited, they can recruit a president, a minister, a judge..."

Pretorius: You say there are negative foreign intelligence actors that negatively impact on the state's ability to govern. Which are some of those actors?

Mahlobo says he cannot divulge: Let us not single out certain sectors. I'm just telling you how our intelligence doctrine works. 

- Kamva Somdyala

Commission chairperson Deputy Chief Justice Raymond Zondo tells Mahlobo he can keep his mic on at all times and not switch it off between questions and answers.

In isiZulu, Mahlobo replies: Lendaba ye intelligence iyahlupha. Uyabona la ngaphandle, bayang'buka ukuthi ngiphefumla kanjani.

Loosely translated, Mahlobo says there are agencies watching his testimony across the globe and they are able to profile his demeanour, including his breathing et cetera. 

- Kamva Somdyala

Pretorius: Should a minister be involved in operational activities at SSA?

Mahlobo: In my case, I was not involved, but there is no law that says you cannot [be involved]. I never ran operations. 

Mahlobo is being taken through several documents; his statement is now the focus. There's a part where he speaks about finding a department beset by political interference. He makes the point that such an issue is not anything new. 

Mahlobo briefly turns his attention to certain accusations made at the commission in relation to SSA and his time as minister. "We will get to that," Mahlobo promises. 

He maintains that he steered the agency to a point of accountability and transparency. 

- Kamva Somdyala

Certain aspects of the remedial action were implemented. It was an ongoing process, Mahlobo says. "Actions were taken... there were certain individuals who were not happy about certain aspects of the first report."

There has, not for the first time today, been a to and fro on what can or cannot be said; what information can be disclosed.

Mahlobo and Pretorius can barely get through two questions without there being an objection from Mahlobo saying he is being coaxed into "indirectly" revealing information he isn't allowed to.

- Kamva Somdyala

Advocate Pretorius continues on the PAN report.

Pretorius: Were you briefed about the report, either before you you took office or after?

Mahlobo: I received a report, it had recommendations for remedial actions and I said those actions must be acted on. That's the action I took. Secondly, we briefed Parliament's Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence.

Pretorius accepts the reply saying "you have told us what was done, however, I'm not hearing why you cannot tell us what was not done".

The sticking point here is that the report is yet to be declassified and so Mahlobo does not want to "indirectly" disclose information in the report. 

- Kamva Somdyala 

Mahlobo says as a minister there are certain embargos on information he can divulge; however, he is here to account. He says he will respond to questions with certain safeguards. He repeats a sentiment from his earlier testimony: "There will also be limitations chair, where matters will seem to be able to indirectly or directly want me to divulge secrets."

- Kamva Somdyala

Technical issues continue to impede Mahlobo's evidence. There is a suggestion that he moves from his current location (he is giving evidence virtually) and make his way to the commission.

He tells the commission he is in Pretoria. Commission chairperson Raymond Zondo tells him he is prepared to adjourn to allow Mahlobo to get to the commission.

The commission adjourns as Mahlobo makes his way to the venue. 

The commission will resume anytime between 11:30 and 11:45

- Kamva Somdyala