WRAP | 'Democracy means majority rule,' says Paul Mashatile during parliamentary question session

This concludes Mashatile's first question session as Deputy President in the National Assembly.

- Jan Gerber

"All we can assure you is, we'll be there, on the ground," he says. "I did say earlier, sooner rather than later." "In the next few weeks, I'll be on the road." Once they move in, they'll have timeframes. "I can please you with timeframes I've drawn sitting in the office. No. I want real ones."

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says Mkhaliphi was not listening to him attentively. "I'm going to repeat, you'll get it properly." He says he appointed a team that must go to municipalities where there are service delivery "challenges". This team already went there. "We need to know exactly all the details."

- Jan Gerber

Mkhaliphi says Kopanong is a indication of the general state of municipalities in the country. "This is a very serious issue! Please, don't howl at me!" she says to ANC MPs. She says Mashatile's plan is not clear.

- Jan Gerber

Responding to DA MP Leon Basson, Mashatile says he can't say what the plans are now, he will once he has been there.

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says he is going to go to Kopanong now, not later, otherwise people will say he is campaigning. "Although I know some others already started campaigning."

- Jan Gerber

Responding to ANC MP Grace Tseke, Mashatile says they want viable municipalities, so they must be assisted to survive long after they are gone. "Municipalities don't survive when they don't have an economic base," he says. "We will do that in Kopanong."

- Jan Gerber

"Water is very important for the survival of people," says Mashatile.

Mashatile says he appointed a team to go to Kopanong to be there before he arrives. It must tell him what to do to address the problem before he arrives. "We are going to Kopanong, but the crack team is already there, to ensure that they can tell us what the problem is." He says this will happen to all hotspots.

- Jan Gerber

Denner says the situation in Kopanong has been deteriorating for seven years and it was a disaster before it was declared a disaster.

"Thank you for informing me that the situation has been deteriorating for many years," says Mashatile.

Mashatile says they are gravely concerned about the state of local government, not just in Kopanong. 

He says when the dam wall collapsed in Jagersfontein in September 2022, government moved with speed to ensure that the situation didn't get worse than what it already was.

- Jan Gerber

Final question of the day, from FF Plus MP Heloise Denner: Whether he has identified the Kopanong municipality as a service delivery hotspot, following the tailings dam disaster on 11 September 2022, that hit the town of Jagersfontein particularly hard, worsening the water supply of the community which they already lacked prior to the disaster, resulting in a provincial declaration of disaster, after which the Government, following the visit of President Mr MC Ramaphosa, provided water tanks, which now appears to be a wholly insufficient permanent solution; if not, why not; if so, what rapid response interventions does he intend implementing to ensure that the residents have adequate access to water that will restore their dignity?

Mashatile asks for list of some of the municipalities Spies observed as dysfunctional. He says government is committed to maintaining viable municipalities.

- Jan Gerber

DA MP Eleanore Spies says district municipalities are a strain on the fiscus and questions their ability to deliver services.

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says the districts were created for coordination. He says some of the small municipalities wouldn't be able to remove garbage. "Our approach is correct," he says.

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile disagrees. He says they didn't make municipalities bigger, they just realigned them. Some smaller municipalities didn't have enough of a revenue base.

- Jan Gerber

FF Plus MP Wouter Wessels says district municipalities do not function and they only pay salaries. He asks Mashatile agrees if municipalities should be made smaller again.

- Jan Gerber

"We are going to innovate," says Mashatile, without saying what these innovations would be. "We are not going to leave anyone behind."

Mashatile agrees that they should have a "multipronged approach" to strengthen the district development model.

- Jan Gerber

ANC MP Nompendulo Mkhatshwa says the ANC truly believes in the district development model being a "golden opportunity". She asks what other initiatives the office of the deputy president has to enhance the model.

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says no government department must operate in a silo. The district development model is going to end departments working in silos, he says. He says the message is very simple to national departments. They must pay municipalities.

- Jan Gerber

Singh says they tried a development model in KwaZulu-Natal. "Good governance is certainly a pipe dream in many of our municipalities." He asks how they will address the "issue of non-payment".

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says the district development model is a golden opportunity to engage all spheres of government and civil society to address service delivery challenges.

- Jan Gerber

IFP Zandile Majozi asked: With regard to his role to assist the President in the roll-out of the District Development Model, (a) how does he intend to collaborate with the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs to promote good governance in local government and (b) how will this collaboration impact on the other spheres of government?

Mashatile says it is a "noble thing that women should have access to land". He will engage with traditional leaders on this issue.

- Jan Gerber

Mkhaliphi says one of the issues affecting people living under traditional leaders is access to land, particularly for women. She asks what engagements he'll have with traditional leaders to solve "this crisis" and whether he agrees that traditional leaders are "tin pot dictators".

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says: "Indeed, we want to assist rural communities." He says some of them already have proposals. Municipalities must assist them to succeed.

- Jan Gerber

Al Jamah-ah leader Ganief Hendricks twice referred to Mashatile as "leader of Parliament". He asks how Mashatile will assist the "rural chiefs".

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says: "We definitely have no intention to deny people land." He says he haven't read the DA's proposed bill. He says they want people to get land, but in an orderly way. "As far as I know, we are releasing land," he says.

DA MP Noko Masipa asks if government would support the DA's proposed land justice bill to provide persons on communal land with title deeds.

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says Ramaphosa asked him to work with traditional leaders, so that they are not left behind.

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says South Africa cannot reach its economic potential if rural areas are excluded economically.

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says subsistence farming is supported through a voucher system. 107 farmers have been registered as subsistence farmers that have benefitted from this initiative.

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says a number of rural development projects have been delivered by government in all nine provinces.

- Jan Gerber

Next questions is by ANC MP Dikeledi Direko: "Noting that traditional leaders are recognised by the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, as well as appreciating the fact that they play a critical leadership role in society, what are the details of the progress of the efforts of the Inter-Ministerial Task Team in response to matters raised by traditional leaders in respect of promoting investment and economic development in rural areas?"

COMMENT: Mashatile has a disturbingly simplistic understanding of democracy. It is not "majority rule". Accountability is also a key tenet, for instance.

- Jan Gerber

"I'm happy if in the Western Cape if you vote against us, because we are the minority there," says Mashatile. "Let's allow the National Assembly to be able to make decisions in a democratic way.

"Democracy means majority rule."

"When the ANC believes its course is correct, it will use its majority to push those positions," he says. 

Mashatile: "I think that is how democracy works: the majority must have its way."

Gwarube says when the Phala Phala story broke, the DA called for an ad hoc committee, which has been voted down. She says every attempt to get Parliament to conduct oversight has been blocked by his party. She asks what he says about Parliament's constitutional obligations to investigate while there are other investigations.

- Jan Gerber

"I want to suggest to Honourable Members to allow these institutions to complete their work," he says. "Let's respect the institutions that are set up."

Responding to ANC MP Mikateko Mahlaule, Mashatile says several institutions are looking into Phala Phala. "So there are process that are  unfolding." He says the Public Protector issued a preliminary report. "So it means the issue is not yet done," he says. He says SARS looked at Phala Phala, and found that it is tax compliant. "So this process is unfolding."

- Jan Gerber

"Honourable Mkhaliphi, you got it wrong, we are not shielding," says Mashatile. He repeats that Ramaphosa pledged his full cooperation.

- Jan Gerber

EFF MP Hlengiwe Mkhaliphi says the Zondo Commission found the ANC used its majority to prevent action against state capture, and this is happening again.

- Jan Gerber

He says Phala Phala is being investigated by more than one institution, government supports them and they must be able to complete their work.

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says Ramaphosa has given his word on fully cooperating with all investigations, and government supports this. Mashatile says that public institutions being able to investigate the President, "speaks volumes to the strength of our democracy".

- Jan Gerber

The third question is from EFF MP Veronica Mente: Whether the unanswered questions arising from the break-in and theft at the Phala Phala farm of the President, Mr MC Ramaphosa, the findings of the South African Revenue Service that the money stolen at the farm was not declared upon entering the Republic and the recommendations contained in the Report of the Section 89 Independent Panel, serve to undermine the Government's efforts to combat crime and corruption; if not, what is the Government's position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details?

Mashatile says ministers don't deliberately delay answering questions - they often have to obtain information from state agencies or SOEs.

- Jan Gerber

COMMENT: Members of the executive don't "subject" themselves to Parliament, they are constitutionally obliged to be accountable to Parliament. It's not like that have a choice.

- Jan Gerber

Mashatile says they all agree that members of the executive "subjected themselves" to accountability by the House.

-Jan Gerber